Is full BAB enough to fix Soulknife?

[danzibr]

Topic says it all.

I don't have much of an interest in playing a Soulknife anytime soon (actually I think the idea is cool, but going Warblade for my next campaign), just wondering. I saw the idea of letting them free gestalt with Soulborn (I think that's the name, the pally-type MoC class), but that seems like it might be too much.

I should probably clarify the people I play with aren't going to super optimize.

[Urpriest]

If your group is ok with Warblade then they optimize enough that a full-BAB soulknife wouldn't cut it. Besides the "owns a weapon" shtick, it just gives too few relevant class features. Wouldn't be fun to play.

[Greenish]

A full BAB soulknife's main class feature would still be having a weapon worse than one could buy. That is to say, no.

[Frozen_Feet]

Soulborn itself is such a weak class that to my understanding, gestalting it with Soulknife still wouldn't lead to a hugely powerful class still. Someone with more knowledge of Incarnum, please correct me if I'm wrong, but Soulborn is Tier 4 class whilte Incarnate and Totemist are Tier 3. As a Tier 5 (or was it 4?) class Soulknife would only bump Soulborn to their level.

[Hirax]

Give the soulknife the same psionics as psychic warriors.

[The Glyphstone]

Give the soulknife the same psionics as psychic warriors.

Then what's the point of the Psychic Warrior, if the Soulknife has all its powers plus a free weapon? Bonus feats do not a class make, as the Fighter proves.

[Greenish]

Soulborn itself is such a weak class that to my understanding, gestalting it with Soulknife still wouldn't lead to a hugely powerful class still. Someone with more knowledge of Incarnum, please correct me if I'm wrong, but Soulborn is Tier 4 class whilte Incarnate and Totemist are Tier 3. As a Tier 5 (or was it 4?) class Soulknife would only bump Soulborn to their level.Soulborn is tier 5 along with paladin. It's full BAB just doesn't help to compensate for it's weak meldshaping.

Incarnate is somewhere between tiers 3 and 4, by most reckonings.

[Hirax]

Then what's the point of the Psychic Warrior, if the Soulknife has all its powers plus a free weapon? Bonus feats do not a class make, as the Fighter proves.

I'd take the feats over the psywar's crappy weapon personally. At least the same psionics give them parity, even if it makes them somewhat redundant.

[Frozen_Feet]

Soulborn is tier 5 along with paladin. It's full BAB just doesn't help to compensate for it's weak meldshaping.

Incarnate is somewhere between tiers 3 and 4, by most reckonings.

Then Soulknife // Soulborn should be a pretty good "fix", at least in the sense that it would not break anything.

[Kylarra]

Give the soulknife the same psionics as psychic warriors.There is the Soulbound Weapon variant of the psywar which is functionally similar to the soul knife. Yes, the class is functionally replaced by a single feat. :smallamused:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

[true_shinken]

Just play an Unleashed Soulknife and call it a day.

[JaronK]

Then what's the point of the Psychic Warrior, if the Soulknife has all its powers plus a free weapon? Bonus feats do not a class make, as the Fighter proves.

Except that Ancestral Relic pretty much gives you the entirety of the Soulknife.

JaronK

[Hirax]

Maybe combine fighter, psywar, and soulknife together then. Fighter BAB and feats, soulknife class features, and psywar psionics. We're at tier 3 max? I'd let someone play as this if they weren't using it as a dip. edit: good fort and will saves.

[Greenish]

Maybe combine fighter, psywar, and soulknife together then. Fighter BAB and feats, soulknife class features, and psywar psionics. We're at tier 3 max? I'd let someone play as this if they weren't using it as a dip. edit: good fort and will saves.Psywarr alone is solidly in tier 3.

Fighter//Soulknife might be interesting, though still tier 4 at best.

[Frozen_Feet]

Combination of Fighter, Psychic Warrior and Soulknife would mainly just have bigger numbers than vanilla Psychic Warrior. Sure, it'd be better all around, but overall the improvement wouldn't be hugely impressive. Soulknife adds little to the mix, and while Fighter feats would be useful, they aren't very helpful in building up versatility.

[gorfnab]

Just play an Unleashed Soulknife and call it a day.
+1
The Pathfinder Soulknife is actually playable and awesome.

[Urpriest]

Y'know, instead of being a dual-wielding blender-type a la Pathfinder, the Soulknife might work better just by extending its abilities into the land of versatility. Give it the ability to switch weapon enhancements and properties as a swift action, with a wider list of options, including lots of handy exotic blade-shapes. The soulknife could work like Haberdash the Masked, exploiting lots of different weapons, while speeding up and widening its weapon enhancement access could make it something of a mini-Artificer. Hmm...

You'd probably also want to do something about Psychic Strike, maybe giving them a free action Hustle analogue with some per-encounter limitations would be sufficient...

[Veyr]

Is full BAB enough to fix Soulknife?
Not even remotely.

Also, Soulborn doesn't really help. Neither class has decent class features; combining them means you get two sets of thoroughly meh class features. Nothing about adding Smite to a Soulknife makes it any good.

[Greenish]

Also, Soulborn doesn't really help. Neither class has decent class featuresI contend that meldshaping is, actually, pretty damn cool. Soulborn just doesn't get enough of it.

Then there's homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441) derived from the idea.

[true_shinken]

Y'know, instead of being a dual-wielding blender-type a la Pathfinder, the Soulknife might work better just by extending its abilities into the land of versatility.
TWF is only one of the styles a Soulknife can use. He can go two-handed and even sword and shield.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd take the feats over the psywar's crappy weapon personally. At least the same psionics give them parity, even if it makes them somewhat redundant.


Except that Ancestral Relic pretty much gives you the entirety of the Soulknife.

JaronK

That's kinda my point, guys. If the options become
Psywar (powers+feats)
Soulknife (powers+free sword)

Then they're both T3 classes because of their powers, and it has nothing to do with the class as it exists now. If the soulknife can be completely invalidated by a feat (either Soulbound Weapon or Ancestral Relic), then you haven't fixed the soulknife, because the PsyWar does it better and gets more bonus feats.

[LOTRfan]

I actually made a PrC a while back that any Soulknife could qualify for and was basically "Soulknife, only better."

I'll see if I can find it, but general consensus was it was better to just use the pathfinder version. What Tier is that one, anyway?

[true_shinken]

I'll see if I can find it, but general consensus was it was better to just use the pathfinder version. What Tier is that one, anyway?
Unleashed Soulknife is Tier 3.

[Flickerdart]

Removing the ridiculous 1/turn blade clause (which normally goes away at 17th level when nobody cares) makes a 6-level Soulknife dip a decent base for a throwing build, since you're getting infinity of what is essentially a +4 weapon (+1 throwing, returning, +1 enchantment).

[Urpriest]

TWF is only one of the styles a Soulknife can use. He can go two-handed and even sword and shield.

And I believe in your review you pointed out that these options are pretty lackluster. In any case, blender was the operative part of my comparison really. The Pathfinder soulknife is a melee class with a variety of tools thematically linked to psionics and the concept of a mind blade. It's not mechanically based on the mind blade, instead focusing on the talent system that defines similar pathfinder melee blender classes like the Rogue. I was suggesting that something mechanically based on the mind blade itself might be more interesting, and more true to the original class.

[MeeposFire]

Full BAB is a start but it is not enough. Making them have decent options on a standard action and making them able to attack at range at will would help a lot. It is also good to use the alternate class features in the mind's eye article as getting access to a few powers is nice especially if you are a kalashtar.

I also love soulbows and they help a stock soul knife a lot. Oddly by RAW soulbows enhancement bonus to their bow improves your BAB in addition to the standard benefits which can get you over the +16BAB hump.

[ericgrau]

I noticed the drawback of a TWF soulknife is fairly minor compared to purchased weapons. He effectively gets 40% of his WBL put towards his weapon for free at level 20. Or 75% at level 10. That's a lot of money both in terms of weapon power and in terms of money freed up to buy other things. But that's assuming full BAB. Otherwise the enhancement bonus only makes up for medium BAB and the remaing bonus is more like 7% of his WBL at level 20 or 33% at level 10. So full BAB is enough to make him OP in terms of damage output, unless his competition is cheesed out uberchargers. Yet he's still rather bland without any interesting class features.

IMO try medium BAB and whatever suits your fancy for better flavor, which should probably boost power a little too.

[true_shinken]

And I believe in your review you pointed out that these options are pretty lackluster. In any case, blender was the operative part of my comparison really. The Pathfinder soulknife is a melee class with a variety of tools thematically linked to psionics and the concept of a mind blade. It's not mechanically based on the mind blade, instead focusing on the talent system that defines similar pathfinder melee blender classes like the Rogue. I was suggesting that something mechanically based on the mind blade itself might be more interesting, and more true to the original class.

Well, Unleashed Soulknife also does get to swap his enhancements easily and from a better list. Just getting Bane in there is already big. Choosing your damage type is also very good.
Now that I have the book and not just the beta, however, I must say two-handed Soulknives are on par with TWF ones, if not outright better.

[McSmack]

Just play an Unleashed Soulknife and call it a day.

Yeah that's the solution. Unleashed Soulknife is pimptastic.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Maybe, to fix soulknife, you could say that any weapon can be a soulknife's weapon, but they have to give up their old one first.

The original mind blade would be treated as a short sword, and if you give it up for a different one, the original would appear as a mundane short sword in front of you.

Of course, combine that with a lenient DM, a warforged, and an armblade, it could end up looking something like this. http://dreager1.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/3.png

[Veyr]

I contend that meldshaping is, actually, pretty damn cool. Soulborn just doesn't get enough of it.
I meant that Soulborn Meldshaping isn't cool. Because you get no Essentia until like 8th. Someone taking Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, and Bonus Essentia feats would be a much better meldshaper than a Soulborn who did not until like, level 12 or something ridiculous.

[true_shinken]

I meant that Soulborn Meldshaping isn't cool. Because you get no Essentia until like 8th. Someone taking Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, and Bonus Essentia feats would be a much better meldshaper than a Soulborn who did not until like, level 12 or something ridiculous.

A Soulborn can still be an azurin and take Bonus Essentia.

[Veyr]

Hooray, he's got 3 Essentia. Color me unimpressed. Especially since I don't recall the Soulborn even giving bonus feats with which those feats could be taken.

[true_shinken]

Hooray, he's got 3 Essentia. Color me unimpressed. Especially since I don't recall the Soulborn even giving bonus feats with which those feats could be taken.

You obviously don't recall the Soulborn very well. Soulborn gains a bonus incarnum feat at levels 3, 7 and 11.
And a soulborn doesn't need bonus feats, since he only needs Bonus Essentia anyway, he already gets soulmelds at 4th level.
Seriously, I think Soulborn//Soulknife fits thematically and might be around tier 3-4. At the lower levels, Soulknife's "look at me, I have a weapon" plus psychic strike is pretty good a shtick, actually. At high levels, you at least have some melds to fall back onto. That's more options than most tier 4s.

[Tetsubo 57]

Just play an Unleashed Soulknife and call it a day.

Seconded...

[Veyr]

You obviously don't recall the Soulborn very well.
True enough; it's been a long time since I gave the Soulborn more than a glance, and its absurdly poor Essentia progression and numerous dead levels padded at times with Smite of all things, was enough for me.

However, being able to use a few Soulmelds with barely more skill than a non-meldshaper who took the feats, and gaining a free magic weapon with a nigh-useless damage boost still doesn't seem like anything like Tier-3. It might be marginally more versatile than a standard Tier-4, but at such a low power level as to not matter.

Note:

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.Emphasis mine.

Except I'd argue that it's more like this:

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.Again, emphasis mine.

I'm AFB and as I said, haven't gone over the Soulborn recently (or, more importantly for this exercise, the Soulborn melds). I know a few of them are good, but very few. Their Smite is better than most, but still awful. Psychic Strike and Mindblade are pretty much thoroughly meh.

[true_shinken]

Except I'd argue that it's more like this

You misunderstand me. I was saying a gestalt Soulknife//Soulborn would be around tier 4.
Sorry, I reread your post. I think we just disagree. I've seen both Soulborn and Soulknives in play. Actually, I once had a duel between my party's Elan Soulknife and the Hengeyokai Warblade. It was so one sided it wasn't even funny - the Soulknife took no damage at all. This was at level 3, where the Soulknife's weapon makes for a huge difference, specially since he has money to buy other stuff.
Adding a few extra tricks and full bab via soulmelds, as well as expanding Soulknife's skill list, seems like it would put it at tier 4 or even 3. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's just how I see things.

[classy one]

I think Urpriest had the right idea having a wider selection of weapon abilities making them a mini-artificer. Just including something simple like bane and the ability to change it as a swift or standard action makes a dramatic difference in a soulknife's damage output.

My personal fixes include full BAB and a wider weapon ability selection but also the following:
1) consolidate mind blade bonus and enhancement bonus. This makes VoP an optionas you can invest more points to weapon abilities.

2) use the bonus feat ACF rather than psychic strike. Having greater weapon focus acutually improves your damage output more than psychic strike. I'd go and make soulknife levels count as fighter levels too so they can take cooler feats like melee weapon mastery and the like.

Giving them powers would make them more versitile but I personally don't like that idea since it would make psywar useless.

[true_shinken]

I think Urpriest had the right idea having a wider selection of weapon abilities making them a mini-artificer. Just including something simple like bane and the ability to change it as a swift or standard action makes a dramatic difference in a soulknife's damage output.
Unleashed Soulknife does that... and other stuff as well.

[Z3ro]

My fix for the soulknife is simple and consists of two easy steps:

1) Allow the soulknife to manifest their blade as any weapon allowable. Changeable as a swift action. So you could go from a longsword to a greatsword to a spiked chain to a pair of kukris. Always have the right weapon on hand (you can even include ranged weapons in this and still not be overpowered).

2) Add enhancement and ability bonuses together, and allow the soulknife to select abilities/enhancements up to that limit. This can be changed as a swift action, allowing incredible diversity. In addition, add every weapon engancement to the list of allowable enhancements. Now you have the ultimate swiss-army knife warrior, ready for every situation, instead of a drag on the party.

[candycorn]

Then what's the point of the Psychic Warrior, if the Soulknife has all its powers plus a free weapon? Bonus feats do not a class make, as the Fighter proves.

Bonus FIGHTER feats don't.

Bonus Psionic Feats could, especially on a chassis with psionic powers and power points.

The question is: Do the feats add as much to the psychic warrior's ability as a soulknife's class features do?

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Seconded...

Thirded... With the upcoming Psionics Expanded book, the Soulknife even has a variant where it can get some decent manifesting. If your group is not Pathfinder, than at least show this to yer DM as a viable alternative, or to see where some improvements can be made to the base WotC SK.

All in all though, with the right progression and effects, the Soulknife as it is (in 3.5) is really *not that bad*. :smallwink: It's all in how it is played.

[Seerow]

All in all though, with the right progression and effects, the Soulknife as it is (in 3.5) is really *not that bad*. It's all in how it is played.


Huh? The Soulknife as is in 3.5 is a Fighter with worse BAB, no feats, but 200,000 extra gold to spend.


I posted a soulknife fix recently here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194730

[Person_Man]

You can sometimes judge how long someone has been playing 3.5 by the number of homebrew Soulknife fixes they've created. I have two. The first (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407) is based on the Force Unleashed - and gets most of the normal Soulknife stuff, full BAB, and Force powers. My second (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441) (which was kindly linked to by Greenish) is based on the Soulknife + Soulborn idea (it's called the War Soul), with the notable addition of fixed meldshaper level, improved soulmeld/essentia progression, and a bunch of bonus Smite feats.

I've play tested both. The Force Unleashed Soulknife is a high Tier 4 - you get a really powerful magic weapon and the ability to throw people around in cool ways. But you're basically on par with a Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Fighter. The War Soul is mid Tier 3 - you get a really powerful weapon, plus you're well positioned to optimize Smite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492#post10289492), plus you get the utility of soulmelds, which can do a ton of different things if you really know what you're doing.

[MeeposFire]

You can sometimes judge how long someone has been playing 3.5 by the number of homebrew Soulknife fixes they've created. I have two. The first (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407) is based on the Force Unleashed - and gets most of the normal Soulknife stuff, full BAB, and Force powers. My second (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441) (which was kindly linked to by Greenish) is based on the Soulknife + Soulborn idea (it's called the War Soul), with the notable addition of fixed meldshaper level, improved soulmeld/essentia progression, and a bunch of bonus Smite feats.

I've play tested both. The Force Unleashed Soulknife is a high Tier 4 - you get a really powerful magic weapon and the ability to throw people around in cool ways. But you're basically on par with a Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Fighter. The War Soul is mid Tier 3 - you get a really powerful weapon, plus you're well positioned to optimize Smite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492#post10289492), plus you get the utility of soulmelds, which can do a ton of different things if you really know what you're doing.

Or monk fixes:smallwink:. Also fighter fixes.

[faceroll]

Soulknife as is, with maneuver progression would be interesting. I'd give it Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and Stone Dragon, with progression as a Crusader and recovery as a Swordsage.

[MeeposFire]

To be honest most classes (if not any) look good with a maneuver progression of any quality. Heck take a standard monk. Add swordsage maneuvers progression. It is now better than a swordsage. Take fighter and add warblade maneuvers. It is better than warblade.

Not saying your wrong as you are right. Maneuvers help a lot of classes.

[faceroll]

I'm just saying it'd be an easy fix, it'd be interesting, and wouldn't step on the toes of psychic warrior. I'm not sure if the class features of the ToB classes are even worth 200,000 gp. But if you didn't let adaptive style work for this hypothetical soulknife in refreshing maneuvers, I think it'd be about on par with the other ToB classes.

[true_shinken]

Huh? The Soulknife as is in 3.5 is a Fighter with worse BAB, no feats, but 200,000 extra gold to spend.
Oh,yeah, he is a Fighter alright. A Fighter with more skill points and actual class features. So basically, not a Fighter. :smalltongue:
Mind Cleave alone already makes wonders towards empowering the Soulknife. If you TWF I believe you get more than 200k out of it as well.

[MeeposFire]

I'm just saying it'd be an easy fix, it'd be interesting, and wouldn't step on the toes of psychic warrior. I'm not sure if the class features of the ToB classes are even worth 200,000 gp. But if you didn't let adaptive style work for this hypothetical soulknife in refreshing maneuvers, I think it'd be about on par with the other ToB classes.

Yea in many combats refreshing is a bit over valued. Since many combats don't last that many rounds unless you can use a lot of actions at once you may only rarely need to refresh maneuvers especially if you throw some full attacks into the mix.

[Seerow]

Oh,yeah, he is a Fighter alright. A Fighter with more skill points and actual class features. So basically, not a Fighter. :smalltongue:
Mind Cleave alone already makes wonders towards empowering the Soulknife. If you TWF I believe you get more than 200k out of it as well.

TWF is a bad choice regardless. You may get more money out of it, but you make yourself even weaker.

And your 'actual class features' are a half assed sneak attack/Ability Damage that doesn't work on half the high level enemies in the game, 200k gp, and a couple of bonus feats that you don't get to choose. You gain that and 2 skill points per level in exchange for a lower BAB progression and 11 feats you can choose. I'd actually take the Fighter over the default soulknife.

[MeeposFire]

I prefer using the SK ACFs. Bonus feats are usually more useful than a few d8s every once in a while and hidden talent (and the ability to pick more hidden talents!) is very cool. Granted I only use that to get into soulbow but still that is the way to go.

[tyckspoon]

. Actually, I once had a duel between my party's Elan Soulknife and the Hengeyokai Warblade. It was so one sided it wasn't even funny - the Soulknife took no damage at all. This was at level 3, where the Soulknife's weapon makes for a huge difference, specially since he has money to buy other stuff.


..and they say you can't screw up a Tome of Battle character. That Warblade somehow found a way.. I mean, a level 3 Soulknife's mindblade isn't even magical yet! It's not even Masterwork! It should not be possible for the Warblade to lose that one outside of crooked dice!

[true_shinken]

..and they say you can't screw up a Tome of Battle character. That Warblade somehow found a way.. I mean, a level 3 Soulknife's mindblade isn't even magical yet! It's not even Masterwork! It should not be possible for the Warblade to lose that one outside of crooked dice!

Soulknife gets Hide as a class skill. Warblade doesn't get Spot as a class skill. Add Psychic Strike and it's as one-sided as it could get.



TWF is a bad choice regardless. You may get more money out of it, but you make yourself even weaker.
:smallsigh:
TWF is not always a bad choice. If you are set on this often repeated myth, I see no reason to continue this argument.


And your 'actual class features' are a half assed sneak attack/Ability Damage that doesn't work on half the high level enemies in the game, 200k gp, and a couple of bonus feats that you don't get to choose. You gain that and 2 skill points per level in exchange for a lower BAB progression and 11 feats you can choose. I'd actually take the Fighter over the default soulknife.
You mean to tell me half the high level enemies in the game are immune to mind-effecting? Even if that was true (and it isn't) you get Knife to the Soul at level 13. It's enough to one-shot most animals and magical beasts.
Anyway, the WotC Soulknife is weak. I'm not contesting that. It's just nowhere near the pile of garbage people usually say it is. Seeing classes in actual play makes for a very different experience than comparing numbers.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Huh? The Soulknife as is in 3.5 is a Fighter with worse BAB, no feats, but 200,000 extra gold to spend.


I posted a soulknife fix recently here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194730

When I say it's not that bad, what I mean is that the general consensus on the class is that it's "weak" when compared to the ToB classes, or the Psychic Warrior. Honestly, generally ANY melee class is "weak" when compared to those. What I am saying is that sometimes people are making the SK out to be some horrible pseudo melee class that is supposed to tank and get in the face of everything. On the other hand; that is not what I get from the class at all. It is a skirmisher; it's designed to be support melee, not primary melee. Hence yon following (from d2srd.com):

1) Throw Mind Blade: the SK can chuck the mind blade 30ft. That is farther than daggers and most other thrown weapons, and she can use Psychic Strike with it. Granted, Psychic strike is useless against undeads and constructs.

2) Bladewind: Effectively Whirlwind for free. Thanks! I'll just pop into battle, throw up bladewind, then shred and move on.

3) The SK's main progression is based on the mind blade enhancement progress. True, but the same can be said for standard melee classes?

4) I got a SK up to 12th level, and was able to get the Raptor School and Leap Attack feats. Although the damage increase was marginal (he's no "king of smack"), it still made for a helluva smack when I was able to get all that together. Which was quite often, because of how I played the character.

5) Don't discount adding Psychic Weapon feat. As the SK is not going to be living in melee constantly, they do have the opportunity to ready that feat along with Raptor School, and time Leap Attack just right.

The class does need feats to make it "viable"; as some would put it. No class by itself can work without feats. That's how WotC designed the game. Take the time, it can work. It's not as strong as a Warblade or Rogue out of the gate, but it is quite useful in many situations.

With all that being said, the new Soulknife that our friends at Dreamscarred Press put together is a monster. Adding Manifester levels with the variants in their new book is going to make it as good as, or possibly better than the PsyWarrior.

Like I said, it's all in how the character is played.

[Greenish]

Soulknife gets Hide as a class skill. Warblade doesn't get Spot as a class skill. Add Psychic Strike and it's as one-sided as it could get.Please do elaborate.

[tyckspoon]

Soulknife gets Hide as a class skill. Warblade doesn't get Spot as a class skill. Add Psychic Strike and it's as one-sided as it could get.


If the Soulknife is both very lucky and very good, that gets him 1 strike. That one strike, consisting of 1d6+1d8+Str mod, will on average take out the Warblade's 1st level HP, assuming he does manage to hit the Warblade (Hilariously, Warblades have Uncanny Dodge. The Soulknife doesn't even really get to benefit from potentially catching the Warblade flat-footed.) Sadly, the Warblade is 3rd level, which means he will survive even if the Soulknife rolls a max-damage crit, and now the Soulknife has blown his cover and is standing next to the Warblade. I honestly don't see how this turns out at all well for the Soulknife unless you bend the rules for Hide strongly in his favor.

[true_shinken]

If the Soulknife is both very lucky and very good, that gets him 1 strike. That one strike, consisting of 1d6+1d8+Str mod, will on average take out the Warblade's 1st level HP, assuming he does manage to hit the Warblade (Hilariously, Warblades have Uncanny Dodge. The Soulknife doesn't even really get to benefit from potentially catching the Warblade flat-footed.) Sadly, the Warblade is 3rd level, which means he will survive even if the Soulknife rolls a max-damage crit, and now the Soulknife has blown his cover and is standing next to the Warblade. I honestly don't see how this turns out at all well for the Soulknife unless you bend the rules for Hide strongly in his favor.

"Standing next to the Warblade"? A mindblade can be thrown. Throw, run, hide, throw again. He didn't even use the sniping option.
It's more about Hide and move speed (the warblade was in medium armor and the soulknife was a xeph) than about class, though.

[faceroll]

"Standing next to the Warblade"? A mindblade can be thrown. Throw, run, hide, throw again. He didn't even use the sniping option.
It's more about Hide and move speed (the warblade was in medium armor and the soulknife was a xeph) than about class, though.

Well that's just kiting abuse.

[tyckspoon]

Well that's just kiting abuse.

And.. honestly not especially good kiting abuse, considering he'd be using half or more of his move actions on reforming his mindblade and recharging his Psychic Strike. A 20-foot movespeed difference isn't enough to stop a determined chaser from catching you, and if you want to stay ahead of him reliably you'll be making a choice between being out of his reach and having a weapon at some point.

[Greenish]

A 20-foot movespeed difference30' difference, with the xeph using it's racial burst (probably all three of them).

[Edit]: Still, even if a soulknife can use his better speed and terrain to beat a warblade at level 3, that's practically antithetical to his performance as a part of a group.

[Veyr]

Where the hell was he getting all of this cover he needs to keep using the Hide skill? Sounds like the battlefield was also greatly favoring the Soulknife.

[Seerow]

Soulknife gets Hide as a class skill. Warblade doesn't get Spot as a class skill. Add Psychic Strike and it's as one-sided as it could get.

Wait why are you talking about PVP here?




:smallsigh:
TWF is not always a bad choice. If you are set on this often repeated myth, I see no reason to continue this argument.

It is always a bad choice when you don't have some form of bonus damage. The soulknife's bonus damage takes a move action to charge and applies to only one attack, making it very anti-TWF and more in the favor of the single one hander strike.

If Psychic Strike applied to all attacks rather than just one, didn't require a move action to charge, and had some way to get around immunity to mind affecting effects, then TWF would be a valid option for the SK. As it is, any SK dual wielding is doing it wrong.


You mean to tell me half the high level enemies in the game are immune to mind-effecting? Even if that was true (and it isn't) you get Knife to the Soul at level 13. It's enough to one-shot most animals and magical beasts.

Congratulations. How many beasts and magical beasts are you seeing at CR13+? I guess you can take out a Tarrasque? Oh wait, nope, immunity to ability damage.

Against anything else your damage is like a weak rogue. Except you only get sneak attack on one hit instead of all of them. Knife to the Soul is nice, but it's very limited.

As to most enemies not being immune to mind effecting at high levels, mind blank is almost universal past a certain level. Any creature with spell casting should have it. Any NPC probably has access to it somehow or another. a large chunk of high level monsters have spellcasting, and many others are immune to mind affecting.


Anyway, the WotC Soulknife is weak. I'm not contesting that. It's just nowhere near the pile of garbage people usually say it is. Seeing classes in actual play makes for a very different experience than comparing numbers.

This is the same sort of argument that people make for the Fighter being a strong class. The mechanics are pretty clear. Seriously, I'd take a straight fighter over a straight soulknife. A Fighter is actually MORE flexible and will hit harder at basically every level.


1) Throw Mind Blade: the SK can chuck the mind blade 30ft. That is farther than daggers and most other thrown weapons, and she can use Psychic Strike with it. Granted, Psychic strike is useless against undeads and constructs.


Isn't there a throw anything feat? Hey there you go, you have a feat as a class feature. Only you can't opt to take something else instead.


2) Bladewind: Effectively Whirlwind for free. Thanks! I'll just pop into battle, throw up bladewind, then shred and move on.


So another feat. It's nice to be able to get that without the heavy prerequisites, but that is basically all it is. A feat.


4) I got a SK up to 12th level, and was able to get the Raptor School and Leap Attack feats. Although the damage increase was marginal (he's no "king of smack"), it still made for a helluva smack when I was able to get all that together. Which was quite often, because of how I played the character.


So at 12th level the SK could do what the Fighter was doing at 4th-6th level?


The class does need feats to make it "viable"; as some would put it. No class by itself can work without feats. That's how WotC designed the game. Take the time, it can work. It's not as strong as a Warblade or Rogue out of the gate, but it is quite useful in many situations.


The problem is the SK isn't even as strong as a Fighter out of the gate. The Fighter is already widely considered a weak class. Seriously, Feats make better class features than gold. The SK's one nice trick is the ability to kill any animal that isn't immune to ability damage in one round. That's far too narrow of a niche to be useful.