Houserule Check: Sunder Natural Weapons (3.P)

[Ravens_cry]

Pretty much what it says in the title, I am wondering what the Playground thinks of allowing players to sunder natural weapons. The hard part will be figuring out appropriate statistics, something I know I could use help with, but it makes sense to me to be able to bust a dragons jaw so it can't bite or lop off the claws of an attacking bear, and it adds a bit more utility to a special attack that, while potentially useful, destroys wealth in the process.
No player likes that.
On the other hand, does it make it TOO strong?
If so, would a separate "Sunder Natural Weapon" feat chain help?
Anyway, thank you for any and all feedback on this, including yours. Thanks again.:smallsmile:

[Forged Fury]

Considering they're ineligible for iterative attacks, I think Sundering Natural Weapons might be a bit much.

[Mutazoia]

Well I can see where this would be handy...the problem is accomplishing the deed. The rules are in place for sundering various types of material (such as bone), the problem would be HITTING the natural weapon. Considering the speed at which they would be moving (and some times the size) it would be damned hard to hit, let alone hit hard enough to sunder.

I would say, if you were to allow this in a game, that the player would be sucking some major hit penalties just to "call his shot" so to speak and I would up the DC for the sunder check a bit, considering how hard it would be to catch a bear's claw's at just the right time, at just the right angle, with just the right amount of force, while the bear is actively inserting them into your innards.

[stainboy]

You use Sunder to take off hydra heads, so there's precedent. It might be a problem for slams though. Targeting a slam weapon is a rules-lawyery mess, especially if the creature has more than one of them.

How would you determine how many HP a natural weapon has?

[erikun]

I would be more worried about what would happen if an opponent decided to try to sunder one of the PC's "natural weapons". I don't think the Monk player would like his fist or leg sundered, and you'd want some idea of what is actually happening for when Heal checks and recovery time become relevant.

Perhaps, rather than sundering natural weapons specifically, you could use the sunder option to deal damage to a specific body part? -4 to the attack roll, and you have your choice of attacking a specific body part. The attack deals damage as usual - anything bad enough to damage a claw would hurt! - and dealing a specific amount of damage would penalize the target.

Something like 10% of total HP would impose a -2 to hit and -2 to damage, perhaps?

[Tvtyrant]

You could call it Maim and have the damage be subdual but if the natural weapon reaches 0 they can't use it again until the creature rests. That way the monk can reuse his/her limbs if it happens to him/her but it can effectively injure an enemy.

[stainboy]

A monk with no arms or legs can still flurry with headbutts. No amount of limb destruction would disable a creature's unarmed strike weapon. Same problem as slams, really.

[Sarco_Phage]

Not to mention it raises the thorny problem of "how come the Hydra has rules that apply only to its neck? Why can't I sunder the humanoid BBEG's head?"

[stainboy]

Because hydras have lots of heads, so they don't develop the reflexes humans do to protect their head and face? Because all their heads get in each others' way and leave their necks exposed? I don't know, because that would be broken, just roll your dice.

[Sarco_Phage]

Because hydras have lots of heads, so they don't develop the reflexes humans do to protect their head and face? Because all their heads get in each others' way and leave their necks exposed? I don't know, because that would be broken, just roll your dice.

That's the idea, yes. It's broken if you allow it, and it's inconsistent if you don't.

Frankly I just do away with the sundering rule for Hydras in my games. (Although I've only ever used them four times).

[WinWin]

Perhaps you could draw inspiration from various rogue feats that modify sneak attack. Many of these feats hinder or cripple an opponent in some way.

Shamelessly ripped some links from a related thread on a another forum.

Sean K. Reynolds ranting about called shots (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/calledshots.html)

Hong has some combat feats and houserules you may find useful (http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/)

[The Glyphstone]

A monk with no arms or legs can still flurry with headbutts. No amount of limb destruction would disable a creature's unarmed strike weapon. Same problem as slams, really.

It's only a flesh wound! I'll bite your ankles!

[Ernir]

I think sundering natural weapons could work out just fine, as long as you don't get carried away in extrapolating secondary effects.

As in, if you sunder someone's claw, it doesn't necessarily mean you have chopped something off, just that you have somehow rendered him incapable of fighting with that claw.

You're going to have to come up with hardness/HP rules for natural weapons. I'd not make the damage done to a creature's natural weapon count against that creature's HP total, that would be out of tune with the ordinary Sundering rules.

I also suggest putting in a rule about repairing sundered natural weapons. It's more difficult to buy a new unarmed strike than buying a new sword.
Maybe even put in rules about repairing sundered manufactured weapons while you're at it...

Considering they're ineligible for iterative attacks, I think Sundering Natural Weapons might be a bit much.

I disagree. With natural weapons not getting iterative attacks, sundering one is less crippling. Ruining the bite in a bear's claw/claw/bite routine means that it still has 2/3rds of its attacks remaining, whereas a fighter whose sword is ruined loses... well, his full attack routine.

Creatures that use natural weapons tend to not have backup weapons, though.

[Forged Fury]

I disagree. With natural weapons not getting iterative attacks, sundering one is less crippling. Ruining the bite in a bear's claw/claw/bite routine means that it still has 2/3rds of its attacks remaining, whereas a fighter whose sword is ruined loses... well, his full attack routine.

Creatures that use natural weapons tend to not have backup weapons, though.
I guess I didn't articulate that very well and really intended to list the 2nd point you made in conjunction with the first. In my mind, I saw a fighter-type win initiative in round one and sunder a Tyranosaurus' bite attack. You now have an 18HD monster that has no attacks or special abilities (since they all require the bite natural weapon to work).

[ffone]

Not to mention it raises the thorny problem of "how come the Hydra has rules that apply only to its neck? Why can't I sunder the humanoid BBEG's head?"

You can. You just reduce him to -10 HP.

[Ernir]

I guess I didn't articulate that very well and really intended to list the 2nd point you made in conjunction with the first. In my mind, I saw a fighter-type win initiative in round one and sunder a Tyranosaurus' bite attack. You now have an 18HD monster that has no attacks or special abilities (since they all require the bite natural weapon to work).

Not really a new problem, though... big one-trick brutes like the tyrannosaurus are always vulnerable. Adding Sunder to the list of tactics potentially usable against them is a bit of a drop in the ocean.
Also, with a BAB of 13, a strength of 28, and huge size, I'd be hesitant to call Sundering the thing's biggest vulnerability. xD

[SartheKobold]

I second the imposing penalties route. It makes no sense to be able to sunder a dagger with a greatsword and then not be able to hit a stag's antler or a bear's claw for appreciable damage.

Make a sunder attempt against the enemy. If successful, you deal damage to their natural weapon as if you'd struck it. The natural weapon has HP equal to the enemy divided by the number of attacks it has, but for every 10 points of damage you deal to it, you impose a -1 penalty on attack rolls and skill checks made with that appendage. The natural weapon has hardness equal to the material it is made of (bone for antlers, for example) or 3 + Natural Armor Bonus, whichever is higher. The damage done to the natural weapon does not count against a monster's HP total but completely destroying a natural weapon inflicts it's HP total to the monster's.

So, a Bear with 100 hp is assaulted, and Fighter Joe attempts to sunder one of his three attacks. The claw has 33hp and a hardness of 8 (3 +5 Random Natural Armor). He hits it for 33 points of damage, reduced by 8 for the hardness to 25, which imposes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls with that claw. The bear attacks, misses with his injured claw, and Joe attempts another sunder. He is successful, and deals 13 points reduced to 5 for hardness. This wouldn't be enough to impose a penalty, but it sunders the claw and inflicts 33 points of damage to the bear.

Sundering a monster with only one attack is the same as fighting it outright, and sundering a monster with multiple attacks has an effect without invalidating the use of Sunder or vastly overpowering it...

Sound elegant enough, playground?

[Cog]

I am now imagining a Fiendish Tyrannosaur who's taken levels in Kensai. Magical weapons are more resistant to sundering, after all...

(Sure, he could have just gone for an Amulet of Natural Attacks or whatever. That's not the point.)

[The Glyphstone]

That seems fairly workable for a weapon-sundering houserule. And now I'm picturing that tyrannosaur having his teeth punched out two or three at a time.

[Ravens_cry]

@SartheKobold:
That's brilliant, thank you.:smallbiggrin: I will have to try that some time to see how it works in game.:smallsmile:

[SartheKobold]

@SartheKobold:
That's brilliant, thank you.:smallbiggrin: I will have to try that some time to see how it works in game.:smallsmile:

PM me to let me know how it works out. I'm wondering if the damage/-1 Penalty should be lower, but 10 is such an easy number to work with.

[Melayl]

Sound elegant enough, playground?

I does sound good. The question becomes, though, how would this apply to characters with natural attacks? Like the monk, particularly. They can use any part of their body as a NW... Yes, this question could border on the ridiculous, but it could be a valid issue in some games.

Would you also apply it to those who could potentially have natural weapons, but choose not to use them (i.e. any humanoid who normally uses a weapon or spells/powers)?

[Ravens_cry]

Well, a monks weapon is their whole body, ergo only one, so sundering a monk is the same as killing them, though As Written you can give them negatives.

[Hawriel]

I think for natural weapons and targeting them I think you really want a called shot rule. After all you are targetting a part of the creature. I would think that any natural damage reduction, if any, would apply.

[kiryoku]

Edit: nevermind

[The Glyphstone]

Well, a monks weapon is their whole body, ergo only one, so sundering a monk is the same as killing them, though As Written you can give them negatives.

And now I regret burning the Monty Python joke early in the thread.

[stainboy]

At least you got it in. I lose like 50 nerd points for talking about hacking off all a monk's limbs and not working in a Monty Python reference.

[SartheKobold]

I think for natural weapons and targeting them I think you really want a called shot rule. After all you are targetting a part of the creature. I would think that any natural damage reduction, if any, would apply.

The called-shot portion of it comes from using the Sunder rules. If you can hit a tiny target like a dagger with an M-Effing Greatsword, targeting the weapon in general shouldn't be a problem. I do agree, however, that a creature's natural DR should be factored into the weapon's hardness.

There would have to be some option for healing the negatives, though. Healing the damage reduces the negatives to the attack as if they were never in place. For every 10 points healed (cumulative), the penalties are reduced by 1. If the weapon is sundered, it requires regeneration or greater restoration to return the weapon...