Shadow Sun Ninja

[Hawkflight]

So, I've been looking at the Eternal Blade from Tome of Battle, and ... it's really confusing. The abilities are really jumbled up, and some of them seem overpowered (overcome all DR at 2nd level?) and some of them seem useless (Blade Guide? What is that even supposed to do?). Does anybody have any advice on how to fix this class? Because I really want to use it, it seems like a very flavorful and interesting class.

EDIT: This topic is now about Shadow Sun Ninja. Similar question, does it need fixing, and if so how to go about fixing it?

[Keld Denar]

Its fine. Spend a feat on Knowledge Devotion and you'll see how useful your Blade Guide becomes...

[Hawkflight]

What;s Knowledge Devotion?

[Elric VIII]

What;s Knowledge Devotion?

It's a feat that lets you make a free knowledge check to gain a combat bonus against a certain type of creture (see knowledge skills in PHB for a list of which ones apply to which creature).

You can gain anything from +1 attack and damage for checks 19 and less to +5 attack and damage for checks 35 and greater. Essentially it's always at least +1 attack and damage, more if you get lucky or invest in knowledge skills/enhancers.

[Greenish]

What;s Knowledge Devotion?It's a devotion feat from CChamp. Succeed in a knowledge check of your enemy's type and gain bonus to attack/damage against it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It doesn't need fixing; the abilities are just fine for a PrC you can't enter until after 10th level. Overcoming DR isn't a big deal (plenty of Stone Dragon maneuvers let you do that) and being able to pick up a maneuver on the fly can be handy.

As for the "jumbled up" ability set...what does a pointy-eared swordmaster with a spiritual advisor remind you of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_(The_Legend_of_Zelda))?

[Xefas]

What is that even supposed to do?

Hey, Listen!

It's a perfectly valuable class feature. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

As for the "jumbled up" ability set...what does a pointy-eared swordmaster with a spiritual advisor remind you of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_(The_Legend_of_Zelda))?

A pointy-eared swordmaster you seek? Know one, I do.

http://www.guidedbyyoda.com/images/yoda-400x300.jpg

Also in force ghost form.
http://www.yodasdatapad.com/livingroom/funstuff/downloads/avatars/yoda_ghost.jpg, the ultimate unbodied blade guide.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

A pointy-eared swordmaster you seek? Know one, I do.

http://www.guidedbyyoda.com/images/yoda-400x300.jpg

A good example, Master Yoda is not. He doesn't find his blade guide (Qui-Gon Force ghost) until the end of Ep. III. Ep V/VI Luke would be a better choice.

...well, I guess I know what build I'll be suggesting instead of PsyWar 20 the next time the usual "How do I build a Jedi?" thread comes around....

[MeeposFire]

I always think Link from Legend of Zelda.

[Keld Denar]

I was going for the fact that Yoda was the blade guide, not that Yoda HAD a blade guide...

Sorry for the confusion.

[Hawkflight]

Okay, what about Shadow Sun Ninja? It seems like a cool concept, but it could use some fixing.

[Eldariel]

Shadow Sun Ninja is...strange. The whole altering types of attacks and turning into vampire and all that can be incredibly bothersome but also quite powerful. Just, it's never straightforward and you have to go to some lengths to truly harness the power. It could be streamlined, somehow, especially if you want to use it to cover the Monk/ToB combo it seems to be created for but with Unarmed Swordsage, that need does not actually exist so you can keep it as the quirky, specialized class it is or work it towards...something. Make no mistake, it is potent but not simple. It's not even complex in the traditional sense; mostly it's just plain weird.

Eternal Blade is, indeed, basically Link. Blade Guide is your fairy, so to speak, and you're the legendary warrior with your own Island in Time. The class is amazing, one of the best martial PrCs for both, melee and ranged types alike. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say it's my favorite purely martial PrC within the whole 3.X.

[Hawkflight]

So, should I stick with base classes until BAB +10 and go Eternal Blade, or should I go right into Shadow Sun Ninja?

[Zaq]

Fluffwise, Shadow Sun Ninja is one of my favorite PrCs. It's shifting, it's complex (somewhat), it's delightfully weird, and it's unlikely to become boring. Crunchwise, it seems like the cool abilities are much less likely to ever trigger (or be perfectly useful) than you'd really like them to. Oh, and your party has to be relatively cooperative. Still, it's pretty distinctly unlike any other class I can name.

I can't imagine using Child of Shadow and Light at the table, though. That, and the fact that something that's the equivalent of a 9th level spell inflicts one of the weakest conditions in the game (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazzled) both amuses me and makes me sigh a little.

Still, I could see myself playing one. You have to really want the weirdness, though, since it seems to me that a straight Swordsage is likely to be better from a purely mechanical standpoint.

[Hawkflight]

Well, I'm more interested in advancing the monk abilities while I continue to get new maneuvers. Any advice on fixing the class?

[Akal Saris]

Mechanically, Eternal Blade is better, almost hands-down really. Fluff-wise, I'd play either of them, though I actually think the EB's fluff matches its mechanics better than SSN's does.

[Eldariel]

So, should I stick with base classes until BAB +10 and go Eternal Blade, or should I go right into Shadow Sun Ninja?

Depends. Do you want to play an Eternal Blade or a Shadow Sun Ninja? If you wish to play a Monky character, play SSN or straight Swordsage. If you have full BAB base, go Eternal Blade and embrace the glory that is your birthright.

[Hawkflight]

Oh, I should have mentioned my class levels.

Swordsage 5 / Monk 2 / Something Else 2

[Zaq]

I don't think it needs fixing per se. Its abilities are (here's that word again) weird enough that there's nothing else you could graft onto it that would really give you the same feel, and while you certainly won't get to use all of its abilities in every fight, I think that you'll at least get to use most of them every day. I honestly can't see what I'd add to it to make it any more powerful while keeping the flavor the same. Perhaps if you got to eventually use Touch of the Shadow Sun as part of a normal strike . . . but I can't really say for certain.

It's playable, I think, and it's certainly got its tricks. Now I kind of want to make a warforged Shadow Sun Ninja who uses Shocking Fist, healing himself afterwards with Touch of the Shadow Sun (since it's not Conjuration (Healing), it should work at full capacity). Also, any kind of warforged ninja makes me laugh.

[Eldariel]

Oh, I should have mentioned my class levels.

Swordsage 5 / Monk 2 / Something Else 2

Either follow up with more Swordsage, or Shadow Sun Ninja depending on whether you want to be a Monk or a YinYangThingy.

[JeminiZero]

S.S. Ninja is good for 1 splash. It continues to progress Initiator Level, grants you 1 maneuver, and Shadow Sun Touch can be effectively limitless healing with the right setup (either undead, tomb tainted soul or stealing life from the infinitely summonable Fire Elemental of Desert Wind). (Also grants Monk AC, but that isn't nearly as useful).

The only downside is that it kinda hurts your BAB. But if you are using partial BAB (and have at least 1 level in Swordsage already), there is very little reason not to take at least the 1st level.

[Zaq]

One thing I just noticed about SSN: Flame of the Shadow Sun's secondary effect is, by RAW, unusable by anyone who's not a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or, perhaps, a Synad). Activating the shield uses an immediate action. If the shield prevents damage, you can use a swift action to fire a damaging blast . . . but oops, you just used your immediate action, which prevents you from taking a swift action in that window. And yes, it specifies that there's only a window of one round in which to use the blast. Yeah. Talk to your GM about that one.

[Amphetryon]

One thing I just noticed about SSN: Flame of the Shadow Sun's secondary effect is, by RAW, unusable by anyone who's not a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or, perhaps, a Synad). Activating the shield uses an immediate action. If the shield prevents damage, you can use a swift action to fire a damaging blast . . . but oops, you just used your immediate action, which prevents you from taking a swift action in that window. And yes, it specifies that there's only a window of one round in which to use the blast. Yeah. Talk to your GM about that one.

I'm unable to locate the reference right this second, but I seem to recall a rule that allows you to expend the next round's immediate action to take a swift action.

Maybe it was a house rule?

[Zaq]

I'm unable to locate the reference right this second, but I seem to recall a rule that allows you to expend the next round's immediate action to take a swift action.

Maybe it was a house rule?

Sounds like a houserule to me. That's pretty much the opposite of how they work (an immediate eats your next swift, not the other way around).

You can, though, use a swift action, then use an immediate action on that same turn. A lot of GMs frown on it, but it's in the rules.

[Ernir]

I'm unable to locate the reference right this second, but I seem to recall a rule that allows you to expend the next round's immediate action to take a swift action.

Maybe it was a house rule?

No, it's just the other way around. When you take an immediate action, you give up next round's swift action.


And yes, it does look to me like the Flame of the Shadow Sun ability just isn't usable as intended. You could still use it on your turn (taking up that turn's swift action), have it active for one round, and then discharge it on your next turn, but that means not using it as an immediate action.

[Zaq]

I don't recall seeing a rule that says that you can use something that requires an immediate action as a swift action. Am I missing something?

[Veyr]

If you use something that requires an Immediate Action on your turn, it counts as that turn's Swift Action. If you use an Immediate Action while it is not your turn, it counts as the next turn's Swift Action.

[Zaq]

. . . Right you are. I was misremembering. I stand corrected.

[Amphetryon]

If you use something that requires an Immediate Action on your turn, it counts as that turn's Swift Action. If you use an Immediate Action while it is not your turn, it counts as the next turn's Swift Action.

Thanks for clearing that up. :smallsmile:

So that I can bookmark it for next time I get confused or under-caffeinated, could you remind me of the page reference?

[Veyr]

Sure, the SRD has it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions):

Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.