wizards in low tier parties

[olthar]

In my current campaign, my character is about to die. He has somewhere between 2 and 6 meetings left (heroic sacrifice type deal). Because of that I've been thinking up what I want to roll next and a combination of the party not having a wizard and it being fun to play makes me want to do that. The problem is, this is an amazingly unoptimized party.

It contains:
lv 7 ranger - rolled really poor stats, basically has a 20 dex and everything else is 10 or 11. Shoots arrows.

lv 8 fighter - has been going for whirlwind attack since lv 1 but never actually uses melee weapons to fight. Everyone wonders what's going to happen now that he has it (technically won't be 8 till next meeting).

lv 7 bard - poor spell choice and character concept has led this bard to be mostly ineffectual.

lv 7 paladin - new character, but it's the player's 5th so we don't have high hopes for this guy's survival.

lv 7 fighter - played like thog.

lv 8 druid - closest to optimized in the group. Never wildshapes, but still a druid.

I'm a lv 7 cleric - to stop the optimization problem, I basically have RP'd this guy as anti-undead and everything he does is anti-undead. I.E. all of my feats have been of the anti-undead variety etc. (Unsurprisingly, once the DM realized that I kill all undead immediately he stopped throwing them at us with one glaring exception, which is why my char will be dying in a few meetings)

So, how much would it disrupt things to put an optimized wizard into a party like this (assuming the rolls don't kill the character ahead of time because rolling is only way DM lets character creation go)?

I would be rolling in at lv 7 (or 8 if I get extra exps for being the guy who does the glorious sacrifice, though I'm not counting on that). If it is very disruptive, should I maybe do something like dip into another class or something for RP purposes?

Basically, if dropping a tier 1 character into a generally lower tier party will screw with it, how do I do so without screwing up the party too much?

[Sacrieur]

If the druid is playing at tier 2, then he is still quite powerful in comparison to the rest of the party. You're actually playing a tier 1 class right now. An optimized wizard would certainly be tier 1, and would outshine everyone except for your druid.

[Eldan]

The general advice seems to be "Don't play god, play Batman". Help your party defeat encounters, don't defeat them yourself. Buff the fighters, weaken the enemies.

[riddles]

If the druid is playing at tier 2, then he is still quite powerful in comparison to the rest of the party. You're actually playing a tier 1 class right now. An optimized wizard would certainly be tier 1, and would outshine everyone except for your druid.

while this is technically true, if you play to the concept of god wizard and buff/debuff/battlefield control rather than damage, most of your party either won't realise that you're the power behind the group or they'll notice and won't care because you're making them look all mighty and whatnot. more difficult for a druid to do that.

[Sacrieur]

while this is technically true, if you play to the concept of god wizard and buff/debuff/battlefield control rather than damage, most of your party either won't realise that you're the power behind the group or they'll notice and won't care because you're making them look all mighty and whatnot. more difficult for a druid to do that.

Point taken.

[Pigkappa]

Stay in core, ban conjuration and transmutation, don't break the game with the other schools. Things may work out this way.

[Mutazoia]

Play an Illusionist....then the party could use you as a PMD.

[The Rabbler]

The amount of disruption will depend on how you build/play your character. I'm a fan of over-optimizing just in case. I can't even count how many times my group has done something completely stupid and I had to whip out God. I generally build my wizards batman-esque but always have the solo-any-encounter spells ready in case they're needed.

but, if you don't want to optimize at all, crafting feats are certainly nice in an under-optimized group.

[Eldariel]

Stay in core, ban conjuration and transmutation, don't break the game with the other schools. Things may work out this way.

Oh, but that'll mean he'll compete with the others. If you ban Evocation and Necromancy, however, you suddenly don't really deal damage. So you can proceed to do everything else. While the rest of the party happily hacks away at things. And then you forbid yourself from using Polymorphs, Planar Bindings, Simulacrums or company and specialize in being the party taxi & controller.

This could be excellent, indeed. A common theme I see in tons of low optimization parties, and as a corollary, less mechanically savvy players, is that they mostly think about damage in terms of combat efficiency. It is, after all, quite logical since damage is the most natural way to dispose of creatures introduced in the combat chapter and the only means available for majority of the classes. This allows a silently powerful character like a controller Wizard only hold back mildly, be an immense asset and still have the party feel like they're doing everything. And have the extra switch to turn things up to 11 in case the party truly gets in over their heads and TPK needs to be averted.


So yeah, do everything but damage; don't compete with the other classes, just be a silent spellcaster in the background who you don't think much of but whose presence actually reduces the damage you take in fights by about 90%.

What would this do? It would make your Fighters, Ranger & Paladin way more efficient through buff spells; note how I left Enchantment alone so you have access to Heroisms in addition to Bull's Strengths, Hastes and all that. It would also reduce the casualties a ton since you can make opponents do so much less with proper use of control spells. Overall, you'd make them feel like they're doing a ton while you're actually doing the heavy lifting silently. It'd make everybody else less likely to die, and more likely to feel like they're accomplishing something.

[Xetheral]

This is an excellent chance to have fun with the spells that never see actual play. Go through the books, find those spells that you've never once seen cast, and then challenge yourself to devise some way to make them productive.

[ericgrau]

Conjuration has some of the best battlefield control for supporting your party, so I wouldn't ban that. You can also tag the druid with mage armor. I'd ban enchantment. Transmutation and, yes, evocation also have a lot of good control and multi-debuffs. Transmutation also has the buffs of course. Illusion doesn't have any IIRC but it has buffs like greater invisibility. Even abjuration has repulsion at least and some buffs. Necromancy has some good no save single target debuffs. So... ban enchantment and I dunno what else. Maybe abjuration or necromancy. Or illusion since you have no rogue.

You can get nothing but support spells and be both very effective and helpful without doing a single point of damage nor killing anything in other ways. Let your allies finish off the debilitated baddies with your buffs.

[Eldariel]

Illusion doesn't have any IIRC but it has buffs like greater invisibility.

There are some but the most efficient ones tend to be the Image-type spells creatively deployed; a simple Silent Image can solve fights many a 5th level spell would fail in, when dealing with appropriate environment and adversaries (the dumber the opponents, the easier, of course). And of course, some fascination and stunning on lower levels but those by and large have lived up their usefulness by 7-8.

[Particle_Man]

Partly it depends on what exactly is fun for you as a wizard.

But an easy answer for avoiding optimization, is just don't optimize. Don't seek to fill up your spellbook at every opportunity - you get 2 per level, that's plenty. Don't take the feats that makes you uber, just take "flavour feats" instead. Don't specialize, just take what comes. If a spell is too powerful, don't learn that spell.

Come to think of it, you could play a half-orc wizard! :)

[Amphetryon]

Half-Orc Sorcerer solves most of the issues, and could be used for BFC at least as well as a Wizard. The Wizard would just be able to do OTHER things better while still spec'd to BFC.

[Pigkappa]

So yeah, do everything but damage; don't compete with the other classes, just be a silent spellcaster in the background who you don't think much of but whose presence actually reduces the damage you take in fights by about 90%.

They will eventually realize that 90% is extremely relevant and you are still outshining the party. Also, they will realize that the first or second time an encounter is going badly and you save everyone easily.


The best way to prevent them from feeling they're being outshined by you is just not doing it. Ban the best schools, avoid cheesing with the other ones, and suddenly you are much less effective. Being half-orc would be nice too, as would everything that cripples you (e.g. forgetting to take Mirror Image). This way you should do your best in character and won't outshine the party too much.

[SiuiS]

Use delay spell, explosive spell, fireballs/equivalent, some trigonometry, and be a Pinball Wizard! Bonus points for being deaf, dumb and blind.

For how to do a low-optimization wizard, ignore your party and look to the DM. Does he like encounters to go the way he planned? Is he liable to up saves by +5 if you're winning, or just add more monsters (or leave it be)?

I've taken a wizard from 1-13 and had the DM hate me, until I explained that I did a total of 32 damage over my career and Only ever cast 3 spells in combat; dimension door, magic missile, and another dimension door. No, wait, I also used obscuring mist when ambushed (by a bunch of invisible sorcerers in a stone building with one exit, who all lobbed fireballs like they were playing dodgeball). We went over the campaign notes and I wasn't responsible directly for anything that irked the DM, I was just the source of all the clever plans that everyone else performed.

The moral being, when being a proud nail, worry about the hammer, not how the other nails feel.

[Gnorman]

Advice that tells you to purposefully gimp yourself (banning Conjuration & Transmutation, being a half-orc sorcerer, etc.) to bring yourself down to the party's level: bad.

Advice that tells you to be the silent power behind the party, making your comrades feel like they're gods and can conquer anything through battlefield control and buffing/debuffing: good.

Just because you're not playing in an optimized party doesn't mean you have to suck. Just make sure you're the power behind the throne, rather than the butt in it.

[faceroll]

Go with battlefield control and save-or-lose effects. Your party will love you when you make everything blind, entangled, prone, enfeebled, slowed, terrified, and cursed.

[fryplink]

Try playing a pacifist character (RP, not that silly feat from BoED, unless you need mechanical justification for never killing opponents). I did this, a reformed priest of a god of greed who was punished by turning from his god by being made divinely silent (can't be a cleric of another god, floats around in the astral plane after death instead of moving on, though it was just backstory, not actually mechanically supported). Thus the character turned to the arcane arts to make up for his sins and avoid death (Elves in this campaign were near-immortals and only died if killed)

The character itself mechanically was traveling travelling with a bunch of beat sticks and a heal-bot and was wizard 9/fighter 1 (to represent earlier combat training and tone down power level). Character took lots of utility spells in his book, defence spells, but no debuffs nor harmful effects. Managed to get healing spells into my book (I forget how, but it was semi-RAW) somehow. The entire challenge to me was roleplaying combat and fighting against the urge to destroy the challenges (Roleplayed sort of) and harm no one.

Eventually their was an accident around level 19 where the wizard's best friend was killed (a party member) and a TPK was in the works preventing the mass theft of every soul from the upper planes (every soul in the CE planes was in a trap of sorts in the room) and the wizard went berserk, breaking his vows and jumping off the slippery slope in anger. I used to the "souls as power" rules (roleplayed as knowledge of dark arts from prior career choice) to remove the remaining party members, used a limited wish to (had one of each prepared) teleport into the magic items stock room of the BBEG's hideout with some of the souls with me. A series of events led to the character being able to revive the fallen character by enslaving powerful outsider with a candle of invocation (was going to be the BBEG's survival method for a later combat) to bind a creature capable of True Resurrection to bring the ally back. The outsider then held my character at sword point for committing what was considered the ultimate evil act (destroying a soul).

The point is, a well roleplayed wizard (backed up with a mechanical reason if necessary) can avoid overshadowing the party easily (the mechanical justification can also push you away from temptation). the avoidance of causing harm to enemies is always nice to avoid killing your wizards playability in low tier parties

to those who read my other posts, you can see I love the souls-as-power rules to make character fall off the proverbial slope.

[erikun]

Don't optimize? I mean, it doesn't sound like you'll need it. You could probably dominate the game with a basic Wizard, if you wanted to. There's little point in breaking out the heavy cheese.

I agree with the suggestion of buffing, debuffing, and relying on battlefield control only when overrun. I like the idea behind a Wizard who insists on giving every spell a try - it'll definitely keep you busy. Perhaps you could give the reserve feats a shot, to see how well each one works in various situations. (Note: Elemental Summoning is overpowered, so don't spam that one.)

[olthar]

If the druid is playing at tier 2, then he is still quite powerful in comparison to the rest of the party. You're actually playing a tier 1 class right now. An optimized wizard would certainly be tier 1, and would outshine everyone except for your druid.The druid is playing around tier 2. I've used some RP and stuff to basically make the cleric death to undead and not so useful elsewhere. (But death to undead to the point that the party literally steps back in any encounter with undead and just tells me to go at it.)


while this is technically true, if you play to the concept of god wizard and buff/debuff/battlefield control rather than damage, most of your party either won't realise that you're the power behind the group or they'll notice and won't care because you're making them look all mighty and whatnot. more difficult for a druid to do that.

Hmm, that might be a good way to go about it.


But an easy answer for avoiding optimization, is just don't optimize. Don't seek to fill up your spellbook at every opportunity - you get 2 per level, that's plenty. Don't take the feats that makes you uber, just take "flavour feats" instead. Don't specialize, just take what comes. If a spell is too powerful, don't learn that spell.

That could be a lot of fun.

The way I'd been thinking of doing it was something like maybe doing a weak Prc like arcane trickster that would drop me down a tier or two without intentionally playing weaker.

[Tvtyrant]

An Arcane Trickster focused on control maybe; a ray trickster tends to do too much damage to not get noticed if done right.

[Endarire]

War Weaver Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0).

Show your group what power is really like!

[pinballchico]

Go Gish....but stick with a strong wizard base. You do drop yourself down a tier or 2 but, you still get to have the wizard fun. Once in a while you'll want to, or have to, attempt to be the tank. By lvl. 7 this might work out ok. I'm not sure yet. I can tell you at lvl. 5 it leads to humiliating moments, and the party wants to see you get more powerful. By the late teens in lvls. you may have to play it a bit dumbed down, but, seeing how often your party seems to have characters killed off, I doubt your DM will let this be a problem.

[olthar]

Go Gish....but stick with a strong wizard base. You do drop yourself down a tier or 2 but, you still get to have the wizard fun. Once in a while you'll want to, or have to, attempt to be the tank. By lvl. 7 this might work out ok. I'm not sure yet. I can tell you at lvl. 5 it leads to humiliating moments, and the party wants to see you get more powerful. By the late teens in lvls. you may have to play it a bit dumbed down, but, seeing how often your party seems to have characters killed off, I doubt your DM will let this be a problem.

Interesting Idea. I would have immediately thought too powerful, but I could let this character die in some blast of glory before that happens.

about DM killing charactersThat being said, it is only myself and one other player. My first character was the group scout. He was scouting and rolled a 1 on a listen check. So he went forward and promptly found himself in a staring contest with a basilisk. He lost. Technically still alive, but party can't fix yet (world restrictions magic availability). My 2nd char is intentionally suiciding as part of a quest (technically he may survive, but if he does then he retires knowing that he's pressed his luck past the breaking point).

The other player tends to do really stupid things that get him killed spectacularly (e.g. attempting to destroy an artifact that the party knew was owned by Orcus, running out alone and yelling "come get me" to a creature that had already shown an immunity to most attacks)

Except for us two the rest of the group has 1 death between them (and that was someone playing with a rocks fall and you die trap and being so amazingly stupid that the rocks literally fell and he died).

[Gnaeus]

With 2 Fighters and a Paladin, the last roles you want for your Wizard are Melee-damage-dealer and Tank. Those are fully covered. Gish, therefore, is not a good idea. You can do anything. They can do one thing. Don't take away their one thing.

[Gullintanni]

I'd love to suggest Bard. Given so many melee characters, Bard would seriously up the threat level of your party in general...but if you're set on Wizard, then I would recommend focusing on Necromancy (For Debuffs...enervations, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion), Transmutation for Buffs, a sprinkling of Conjuration, for control. Illusion will allow you to distract and confuse opponents while your melee picks them apart.

The best advice I can give has been given above already. Function as a tactical mage. Divide enemy mobs, so your fighters can move in and conquer, weaken more powerful single opponents, so that your front line will be less threatened, and enhance your own party's abilities.

[Eldariel]

I'd love to suggest Bard. Given so many melee characters, Bard would seriously up the threat level of your party in general...

*chuckle* Did you read the whole party? There is already a Bard there; I'm not sure how happy he would be if you add an identical, except a more competent, copy of him (Coreish environment heavily restricts Bards at any rate).

[Gullintanni]

*chuckle* Did you read the whole party? There is already a Bard there; I'm not sure how happy he would be if you add an identical, except a more competent, copy of him (Coreish environment heavily restricts Bards at any rate).

Hehehehe...oops. I'm at work and I'm skimming. My bad :smallamused:

[nedz]

*chuckle* Did you read the whole party? There is already a Bard there; I'm not sure how happy he would be if you add an identical, except a more competent, copy of him (Coreish environment heavily restricts Bards at any rate).

I was going to suggest Bard instead of the buffer also, since that covers that base rather better. But you have highlighted a potential problem: If the OP does play a buffer wizard then He is likely to outshine the Bard at doing what the Bard is supposed to be doing anyway. Bear in mind: the Bard may improve his spell choice soon anyway.

A necromancer might be too similar to your previous existing character.

You could play something like a Monk/Wizard, thats fairly low OP. Go with the Kung Fu Genious feat to replace Wiz with Int to reduce MAD and give you skill points. Choose spells which emulate Monk type abilities or self buff. I'm thinking Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armour, Spider Climb, Levitate, Haste, etc.

[Eldariel]

I was going to suggest Bard instead of the buffer also, since that covers that base rather better. But you have highlighted a potential problem: If the OP does play a buffer wizard then He is likely to outshine the Bard at doing what the Bard is supposed to be doing anyway. Bear in mind: the Bard may improve his spell choice soon anyway.

1) Bard buffs tend to be Morale-bonuses; Wizard-stuff tends to stack with those.
2) Wizard can mostly debuff and control, rather than buff, reducing the risk of this. Just buff in understanding with the Bard as to who does what.

[JonestheSpy]

You know, this is really more of a problem for the DM than the player. There are lots of ways to adjust the challenges the party faces so it's not WZZRDS RULE!! all the time, not to mention the DM's responsibility to decide how much rules-tinkering needs to happen to curb spellcaster abuse.

Just sayin'.