How to make a monk playable?

[Kaeso]

Yes, I know it's Monk Monday but I'm not here to bash the Monk's suckyness (I'll leave making a thread about that to someone else :smallwink:), but it's just that I love the concept of the monk: an unarmed warrior that uses non-magical tricks but can still match armed foes. It's just that the monk.... well.... fails at it.

I hate to see such a class utterly fail, and I think that the unarmed swordsage is a bit too magical for a melee class, so what builds are there that make a monk(ish) character playable?

In b4 unarmed swordsage/ be a wizard/ punpun.

[Tvtyrant]

There is the ability to advance psionics along with your monk abilities as a feat whose name I cannot recall.

[Cog]

There is the ability to advance psionics along with your monk abilities as a feat whose name I cannot recall.
If a Swordsage is too magical, I think psionics are right out. Tashalatora is the feat, though.

Warblade is pretty "mundane". Improved Unarmed, Superior Unarmed, and rock out. If you'd rather skip ToB altogether, there's a "City Brawler" variant Barbarian in one of the Dragon Mags.

[holywhippet]

Psionics are really just magic by a different name.

If you want to avoid being an overly magical monk but still have hitting power you need to abuse the heck out of multiclass options. Things like levels in fist of the forest and other classes that improve the size/damage of your natural weapons.

BTW, it is Tuesday here.

[Murdim]

... what about an unarmed swordsage who doesn't take any supernatural maneuver ? :smallconfused: Really, as long as you stay away from the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand disciplines, your swordsage should be significantly less magical than a monk. As far as mundaneness goes, one Su class feature beats six Su class features and a capstone that turns you into an magical being any day.

Psychic warrior is another class that is often compared to, and offered as an alternative for the monk. It is very supernatural, of course, but more importantly, it doesn't necessarily look or feel like it is. Seeing how easy it is to manifest without display of any sort, you could be using powers such as Vigor, Hustle or Psychofeedback without anyone else (in universe) realising there's more than sheer badassery behind your prowesses. Add the Time Mantle Warrior variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) for extra lulz at higher levels.

[ericgrau]

The worst builds I see are people who punch things. Even magical monk weapons deal more damage.

I favor either the grappler/tripper or weapon finesse stunning fister/disarmer depending on campaign. When there's nothing to grapple or trip you shillelagh oil up a quarterstaff and see how many size modifiers you can stack. They're actually the best grapplers because they actually deal significant grapple damage whereas all the other classes debilitate themselves just as much as their opponents when they grapple. So what if the barbarian's especially good at debilitating himself? Well, that or a spiked armor grappler build but then you can't afford to do anything else. And even a wizard could trip well if he took the strength and feats for it (again, wouldn't be so good at casting or anything else though). So can any str class of any BAB. Which reminds me, wis focus is garbage. You can't even land your stunning fist attacks without str, nor do much else. Always put str first. Wis 3rd after con at most.

His fists and skin are easily buffable too, more so than others who already rely on manufactured weapons/armor. Check out this DM bewildered at the sucky monk stomping his encounters: http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-314426.html

Yeah another option is to see how many size modifiers you can get to unarmed damage or to PrC out at level 3, but that doesn't seem like a real monk.

But if your DM likes to send the gigantic monster of the week (R) at the party each session (can't be grappled/tripped/disarmed and fort saves are lol I pass) and you don't have buffing allies either you should give up and wait for a different campaign.

[ELC]

I only have access to the SRD at the moment, but I spent a few weeks when I first started D&D trying to make an awesome Monk. From what I understand, Monks are reviled due to a severe case of MAD: STR, DEX, CON, and WIS, to be precise.

Let's see if I can work some magic based on the SRD and old character sheets:
1. Weapon Finesse - This will allow you to use DEX for Attack instead of STR. STR is still required for damage.
2. Jack up DEX and WIS so you can make the most of Quivering Palm. Although it's only once per week, it's an instant kill if you need it.
3. Invest in CON for HP and Fort
4. Spring Attack looks good

Honestly, if there was a way to remove STR from the equation entirely, Monk would only require two primary stats and one tertiary stat.

[Shpadoinkle]

I'm going to have to point you at the unarmed swordsage myself. Setting Sun is great for "soft" style martial arts, like jujitsu, while Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and Stone Dragon can all be used to simulate other styles (based on intense training and focus, primal fury, and sheer strength, respectively.)

If you want to build a decent unarmed character without magic... well, good luck is all I can say.

[holywhippet]

Honestly, if there was a way to remove STR from the equation entirely, Monk would only require two primary stats and one tertiary stat.

Removing STR from the equation is more or less possible, and is the basis for most "abusive" monk builds. The trick to monk damage is increasing the size, or effective size of their natural weapons and hurrying along their unarmed damage progression table as fast as possible. Strength bonus to damage is just a straight plus, while size and damage progression are multipliers.

Give the monk a bag of holding and their strength doesn't really need to be particularly high as they level up.

[Particle_Man]

How about a Stone Giant Monk? Your size gives you better base unarmed damage. As an extra bonus, you have a decent missle weapon (throwing rocks).

This would work even better if your DM lets you ignore LA and replace racial HD with monk levels. :)

[Angry Bob]

I've got a player right now who kills everything and is basically untouchable in conventional combat due to a combination of an adjusted half-minotaur template, tashalatora, fist of the forest, feral, and a metric ****ton of size and effective monk level increasers.

...It's only damage, right?

[Tvtyrant]

Druid 1/Monk 4/Sacred Fist 10/Monk 5 would let you use self buffs and sacred flame.

[thompur]

1. Full BAB
2. Flurry of Blows as a Standard action
3. Natural Armor bonus as Ki ability.
4. a whole bunch of other stuff people smarter than me have thought about.

[holywhippet]

I've got a player right now who kills everything and is basically untouchable in conventional combat due to a combination of an adjusted half-minotaur template, tashalatora, fist of the forest, feral, and a metric ****ton of size and effective monk level increasers.

...It's only damage, right?

Out of curiosity, what is his BAB like? That's the one thing about the monk builds I see, they are like a rocket launcher - high damage but not really that accurate.

[The Glyphstone]

How about a Stone Giant Monk? Your size gives you better base unarmed damage. As an extra bonus, you have a decent missle weapon (throwing rocks).

This would work even better if your DM lets you ignore LA and replace racial HD with monk levels. :)

It also works better if your DM lets you have no-save disintegration laser beam vision, but that doesn't make the monk any better.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:



I've got a player right now who kills everything and is basically untouchable in conventional combat due to a combination of an adjusted half-minotaur template, tashalatora, fist of the forest, feral, and a metric ****ton of size and effective monk level increasers.

...It's only damage, right?

where is he getting multiple monk level increasers? The only two I know of explicitly don't stack with each other.

[Metahuman1]

I recall something in book of exalted deeds that allows you to too use Wis too hit in place of str. If the Dm is willing to allow this to be put in conjunction with a home-brew feat to make it responsible for damage as well, that would dramatically reduce MAD for Monk. Same if he'll just house rule that this applies both too hit and too damage. This way Wis helps one of your saves, your AC, your ability DC's, and your ability to hit in combat.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871934/Guide_to_Monks

This also gives several instructive and useful tips on building the best possible monk.

I've also found that Monk get's a LOT out of Gestualt games with Cleric, Fighter, or Wizard on the other side, maybe Sorcerer, rogue or Scout and if your not starting lvl 1 a lvl of Lion totem Barbarian. (I'm not suggesting using all of the above at once, pick one perhaps two + the one lvl dip for pounce, that's all.)

[Woodzyowl]

You could be an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (savage species) which nets you +8 str and +4 dex, con, and wis. Along with a hefty +9 Natural Armor. For a mere 3d8 HD. Also, for low level campaigns, Broodguard (same book) is a good template with +2 dex and con and -4 int and cha with +0 la and human bonuses. The real kicker with it, however, is it gives you a monk... that can rage. My current Lvl 25 monk is a broodguard that deals around 3.5k damage. The only thing I would trade it for is a pixie, for obvious reasons.

[GoatBoy]

Take Ascetic Rogue (CAdv) and just one level of Monk, rest as Rogue. Hardly optimized, but Rogues are better than Monks, and you can dump strength since sneak attack is where all your damage comes from.

A lenient DM might let you take the table version of the feat (generally considered to be incorrect) and let you stack Rogue and Monk levels for purposes of sneak attack, if you want to add more Monk levels.

Perhaps that might fit your character concept?

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, I wonder. Would Ascetic Rogue work for Psychic Rogue? It is a rogue, after all. Then you could totally double advance UAS damage with that and Tashalatora...

Badass!

[Hirax]

where is he getting multiple monk level increasers? The only two I know of explicitly don't stack with each other.

I don't want to get that argument started here, but I assumed you're referring to a monk belt and the superior unarmed strike feat. I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation to say that that don't stack, but I don't think it's accurate to say they explicitly don't stack. Bottom line for anyone considering that combo, ask your DM for their ruling on it. Debate on it can simply be found by Googling "monk belt superior unarmed strike"

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

First off the feat: Kung Fu Genius, from Dragon 319, pg 71, replaces all of your Wis dependent monk abilities with Int making you a little less MAD.

If all you are after is someone who kicks ass with their actual feet and doesn't wear armor (without a magical aspect of course) I have had this build on back order for one of my next games that might suit you.

Monk 2/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 4/Fighter 1/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Bear Warrior 4

Str>Con>Dex>Wis>Int>Cha
Dex>17 by level 7

Feats:
1: Great Fortitude, Cleave, Extra Rage
3: Ascetic Hunter
6: Great Cleave
7*: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting'
9: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper
12: Multiattack
15: Snap Kick
18: Improved Natural Attack (UAS)

ACFs:
Flaws x2
Monk: Overwhelming Attack, Invisible Fist, Decisive Strike, Chaos Monk
Ranger: Spiritual Connection, Champion of the Wild*, Distracting Attack
Barbarian: Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem

Buy a Monk Belt, a Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop and get Permanent Greater Magic Fang on your UAS and you are hitting at Colossal ++ level 20 Monk Damage with a +5 to hit.

The item, Sparring Dummy of the Master (30,000 gp) is great with this build because it allows you to take a 10ft step instead of just a 5ft one.

If you choose a Human as your race take Extra Rage again OR if flaws are not allowed use that feat for Cleave.

Sources: Players Handbook, Players Handbook 2, Complete: Champion, Warrior, Adventurer, Exemplars of Evil, Dungeon Master's Guide, Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, Monster Manual, Races of the Dragon, Arms and Equipment Guide, and Dragon Magazine 335

[Vangor]

Carmendine Monk (CoV) for free, Skirmish (as Scout CAdv) progression in place of FoB, Dodge as free feat at 2nd, Mobility as free feat at 4th, Spring Attack as free feat at 6th, and full BAB.

[Sacrieur]

Unarmed Barbarian/FB?

Sorry, monk just isn't playable. At all. "I don't want to play with magic!" isn't a good excuse to shun off ToB for optimizing. There are plenty of maneuvers and stances that aren't supernatural-y.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yes, I know it's Monk Monday but I'm not here to bash the Monk's suckyness (I'll leave making a thread about that to someone else :smallwink:), but it's just that I love the concept of the monk: an unarmed warrior that uses non-magical tricks but can still match armed foes. It's just that the monk.... well.... fails at it.

I hate to see such a class utterly fail, and I think that the unarmed swordsage is a bit too magical for a melee class, so what builds are there that make a monk(ish) character playable?

In b4 unarmed swordsage/ be a wizard/ punpun.

I got two for you, an excellent monk revision (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122), and the brawler. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149668)

[Mutazoia]

(warning...token Monk Bashing)

How do you make a monk playable? Strap the TV to his chest, hardwire it to his nipples and jam the cartridge in the "slot".

[Mutazoia]

You could be an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (savage species) which nets you +8 str and +4 dex, con, and wis. Along with a hefty +9 Natural Armor. For a mere 3d8 HD. Also, for low level campaigns, Broodguard (same book) is a good template with +2 dex and con and -4 int and cha with +0 la and human bonuses. The real kicker with it, however, is it gives you a monk... that can rage. My current Lvl 25 monk is a broodguard that deals around 3.5k damage. The only thing I would trade it for is a pixie, for obvious reasons.


<desperately searches for his can of Munchkin spray>

[The Glyphstone]

I don't want to get that argument started here, but I assumed you're referring to a monk belt and the superior unarmed strike feat. I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation to say that that don't stack, but I don't think it's accurate to say they explicitly don't stack. Bottom line for anyone considering that combo, ask your DM for their ruling on it. Debate on it can simply be found by Googling "monk belt superior unarmed strike"

Maybe I'm misremembering it then, because I thought there was a clause in SUS that outright said 'this does not stack with a monk's belt'. I guess must have imagined it.

[Cog]

Maybe I'm misremembering it then, because I thought there was a clause in SUS that outright said 'this does not stack with a monk's belt'. I guess must have imagined it.
Nothing there. I do remember seeing that clause in a PrC once, though. I think it was Bahamut-themed?

[Angry Bob]

Nothing there. I do remember seeing that clause in a PrC once, though. I think it was Bahamut-themed?

Gauntlets/Gloves or the Talon(whichever it is) may have that clause. That was another item the guy wanted, but gave up due to the alignment requirement.

[Cog]

Gauntlets of the Talon, yeah. Half-remembering the prereqs (they're a relic item) is probably what made me think it was a PrC.

[Amphetryon]

Sneak Attack Thug Fighter into Shou Disciple makes the Monk archetype *more* playable without touching any magic systems whatsoever.

Arcane Hunter Ranger into Disciple of the Eye does much the same, though you can obviously choose to use Ranger spells - or the ACF that improves the Ranger's ability as a Flanker instead.

[Tael]

Yes, I know it's Monk Monday but I'm not here to bash the Monk's suckyness (I'll leave making a thread about that to someone else :smallwink:), but it's just that I love the concept of the monk: an unarmed warrior that uses non-magical tricks but can still match armed foes. It's just that the monk.... well.... fails at it.

I hate to see such a class utterly fail, and I think that the unarmed swordsage is a bit too magical for a melee class, so what builds are there that make a monk(ish) character playable?

In b4 unarmed swordsage/ be a wizard/ punpun.

Wait, have you read the monk class? Notice those (Su) abilities like Abundant Step and Quivering Palm? And spell resistance and magic fists and unarmored bonuses? Just don't choose most of Desert wind or Shadow Hand and you can be even less magic-y than a monk.

[TroubleBrewing]

... what about an unarmed swordsage who doesn't take any supernatural maneuver ? :smallconfused: Really, as long as you stay away from the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand disciplines, your swordsage should be significantly less magical than a monk.


Wait, have you read the monk class? Notice those (Su) abilities like Abundant Step and Quivering Palm? And spell resistance and magic fists and unarmored bonuses? Just don't choose most of Desert wind or Shadow Hand and you can be even less magic-y than a monk.

You got ninja'd HARD, my friend. :smalltongue:

[Hirax]

Gauntlets of the Talon, yeah. Half-remembering the prereqs (they're a relic item) is probably what made me think it was a PrC.

Yep, relic, page 97, Complete Divine. Incidentally, it explicitly says that is does stack with a monk's belt, so if you're willing to fork over 13k for the monk belt and 20k for gauntlets, you've got +10 monk levels for damage purposes, among other things.

[Vangor]

Yep, relic, page 97, Complete Divine. Incidentally, it explicitly says that is does stack with a monk's belt, so if you're willing to fork over 13k for the monk belt and 20k for gauntlets, you've got +10 monk levels for damage purposes, among other things.

Actually:


This benefit doesn't stack with similar benefits (such as from a monk's belt).

Both increase monk levels by five, though the gauntlets increase ki strike whereas the monk belt offers a bonus stunning strike.

[Hirax]

Actually:



Both increase monk levels by five, though the gauntlets increase ki strike whereas the monk belt offers a bonus stunning strike.

Huh. So they retconned the Complete Divine writing of that item. Good to know.

[erikun]

I've wanted to play a Half-Giant Monk wielding a Sugliin and the feat that allows a polearm to be treated as a Monk weapon, assuming the Sugliin would count. Partially because I love my d8s, and partially because whacking stuff to death with a bunch of antlers on a stick is appealing. Of course, I intended to take Psionic Fist as well for Expansion...

[Cog]

Huh. So they retconned the Complete Divine writing of that item. Good to know.
They cut the cost of the gauntlets by a factor of ten as well, so it's not an entire loss.

[MeeposFire]

1. Full BAB
2. Flurry of Blows as a Standard action
3. Natural Armor bonus as Ki ability.
4. a whole bunch of other stuff people smarter than me have thought about.

Flurry as an attack action. Standard action would make it not work with various things like spring attack. Make it an attack action and BOOM spring attack (plus bounding assault and the like) become awesome for the monk and help give it synergy with high mobility with full attack damage. I think that is the single biggest change needed in any monk "fix".

[Particle_Man]

I love the concept of the monk: an unarmed warrior that uses non-magical tricks but can still match armed foes. It's just that the monk.... well.... fails at it.

I hate to see such a class utterly fail, and I think that the unarmed swordsage is a bit too magical for a melee class, so what builds are there that make a monk(ish) character playable?

In b4 unarmed swordsage/ be a wizard/ punpun.


It also works better if your DM lets you have no-save disintegration laser beam vision, but that doesn't make the monk any better.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Alas, the OP would not be happy with no-save disintigration laser beam vision. :)

Oh, one weird option is to go paladin/monk (there is a no spell version of the paladin) with the special feat that lets you multi- as both. Actually, you can do with with a pure paladin that takes Improved Unarmed Strike too, with that feat (hey at least you would have full BAB and more hp).

[Kaeso]

Wait, have you read the monk class? Notice those (Su) abilities like Abundant Step and Quivering Palm? And spell resistance and magic fists and unarmored bonuses? Just don't choose most of Desert wind or Shadow Hand and you can be even less magic-y than a monk.

Hmm, then what are som good non-magic-y manouvres and stances for unarmed swordsages?

And staying un the subject of unarmed SS's, what would be better: The unarmed variant (ie. no light armor), or the "normal" swordsage with UAS and Superior UAS?

[TroubleBrewing]

Hmm, then what are som good non-magic-y manouvres and stances for unarmed swordsages?


Setting Sun is the usual approach, seeing as "Unarmed" is one of it's signature weapon style.

[Tr011]

There is a book called "Beyond Monks. The Art Of The Fight", but I think it is 3.0. It has great possibilities for monks and another (more cool) class than the monk: Martial Artist. If you just want to play a good monk in ur DnD-Group ask ur DM to allow this book (it's balanced).

Another way of playing a monk above his regular way is Drunken Brawler, not strong but at least worth playing with some multiclassing and a good choice of Feats (there's any Fist-Feat which grants +1d6 UAS-Damage, but I don't remember the name).

If you manage to get a large size + enlarge person + Powerful Charge (I think that was the name) by a team member this can also help (Drunken Brawler may Charge even in curves).

[mabriss lethe]

Half-orc monks can be pretty fun with the right setup and doesn't really need a high starting strength.
1.Take at least 2 levels of Half-orc Paragon for Rage (3 levels for a tasty +2 to strength ) You may now take many rage related feats especially Extra Rage. This version of rage works regardless of alignment, so is very monk friendly.
2.Animal Devotion for a 1/day scaling sacred or profane strength bonus. (animal devotion also grants you the ability to fly.)
3.Take your monk levels. however many you want. If there are monk features you want, PrC into Tattood monk once you qualify to cherry pick abilities and let you more freely multiclass.
4. Do whatever you want with the class after that.

[HalfDragonCube]

As an extra bonus, you have a decent missle weapon (throwing rocks).

Technically since monk unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons, you can throw your own unarmed strike at people.

This works even better on a warforged with the throw anything feat. Super pwer rocket fists!

[MeeposFire]

Hmm, then what are som good non-magic-y manouvres and stances for unarmed swordsages?

And staying un the subject of unarmed SS's, what would be better: The unarmed variant (ie. no light armor), or the "normal" swordsage with UAS and Superior UAS?

With the assumption you don't change anything except what it mentions in the description the unarmed swordsage is better. You save two feats, your unarmed damage is better, and light armor prof gives you nothing since you can get almost any light armor with no armor check penalty (and thus there is no penalty to attack rolls) and their wisdom bonus still works with light armor (some will even tell you that have to wear it for it to work).

Another thing you should remember is that swordsages should use standard gauntlets for their unarmed attacks. Unlike monks swordsages have no weapon restrictions and have prof with simple weapons so gauntlets are full of win in any game for unarmed attacks especially if you lack access to battle fists (with the heavy arm graft) or amulet of natural attacks (or if they are just hard to find gauntlets are core).

[Woodzyowl]

<desperately searches for his can of Munchkin spray>

<desperately runs away in megaraptor form> But really, some of the best monks have Psionic Fist levels (not Talshatora) so you can have psychic warrior buffs (like expansion) and high power points to help you cast a lot of them (almost psion PPs). In fact, after taking 9 levels in it, you can take expanded knowledge and get metamorphosis so you can be a megaraptor too!

[Greenish]

If all you are after is someone who kicks ass with their actual feet and doesn't wear armor (without a magical aspect of course) I have had this build on back order for one of my next games that might suit you.I should think that turning into a bear might have a slight "magical aspect" to it, even if it isn't magic by game mechanics.



As a side note, the best race for straight monk comes with a wis penalty. Funny that.

[Woodzyowl]

Yep, relic, page 97, Complete Divine. Incidentally, it explicitly says that is does stack with a monk's belt, so if you're willing to fork over 13k for the monk belt and 20k for gauntlets, you've got +10 monk levels for damage purposes, among other things.

It's also in magic item compendium 103 for 4k. Ironically, it doesn't stack then.

[MeeposFire]

I should think that turning into a bear might have a slight "magical aspect" to it, even if it isn't magic by game mechanics.



As a side note, the best race for straight monk comes with a wis penalty. Funny that.

Kalashtar do not have a wisdom penalty.

[Greenish]

Kalashtar do not have a wisdom penalty.True, but then again they're pathetic meatbags who have to eat, sleep and breathe. :smallamused:

[MeeposFire]

True, but then again they're pathetic meatbags who have to eat, sleep and breathe. :smallamused:

Ah there are items for that:smallcool:. Kalashtar get access to an unarmed attack size boost that warforged don't get (siberys hard of the fist or whatever it is called) and can get battlefists by spending a few HP and some money for the heavy arm graft.

[Greenish]

Ah there are items for that:smallcool:. Kalashtar get access to an unarmed attack size boost that warforged don't get (siberys hard of the fist or whatever it is called) and can get battlefists by spending a few HP and some money for the heavy arm graft.They have no plating, and don't get to choose the type of damage from their unarmed strike (without burning a feat).

Also, they're all fleshy and icky.

[MeeposFire]

They have no plating, and don't get to choose the type of damage from their unarmed strike (without burning a feat).

Also, they're all fleshy and icky.

Plating is nice early but you can get the same effect from magical robes and then you can boost that higher using magic vestment (warforged would have a +2 armor bonus + enhancement bonus from either enchantments or magic vestments. Magic robes will have the armor bonus that you give them and then you can cast magic vestment and they stack unlike the extra bonuses for the warforged).

What do you mean "choose the type of damage from their unarmed strike"?

They re fleshy that is true. They are also inhabited with a spirit...ghostman monk.

[Greenish]

Plating is nice early but you can get the same effect from magical robes and then you can boost that higher using magic vestment (warforged would have a +2 armor bonus + enhancement bonus from either enchantments or magic vestments. Magic robes will have the armor bonus that you give them and then you can cast magic vestment and they stack unlike the extra bonuses for the warforged).Expensive and relies on having a caster handy.


What do you mean "choose the type of damage from their unarmed strike"?As in pick piercing, slashing or bludgeoning, depending on the enemy.

[MeeposFire]

Expensive and relies on having a caster handy.
As in pick piercing, slashing or bludgeoning, depending on the enemy.

Armor enchantments are relatively cheap and having a caster handy is just nice not required. At best with no caster the kalashtar is two AC less spending the same money on armor. With a caster AC is 3 better at higher levels and if desired it has a higher ceiling than the warforged.

What are you using to get to choose your damage type on regular unarmed strikes without spending a feat or using an item that the kalashtar could not also use?

By the way I adore warforged monks this is just splitting hairs for the most part to be honest.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I should think that turning into a bear might have a slight "magical aspect" to it, even if it isn't magic by game mechanics.



As a side note, the best race for straight monk comes with a wis penalty. Funny that.

Yeah the whole turning into a bear may be a 'bit' magical but the mauling is all natural baby.:smallcool:

And interesting you should mention Warforged, that's the race that I was using with this one.

As a side note, there is the Monk's Tattoo in Magic of Faerun pg 163 that boosts effective monk level by 4. It is at a grossly overpriced 80,000 but doesn't take up an equipment space. It says nothing about not stacking with monk belt.

[MeeposFire]

One thing to note is that officially wizards says that superior unarmed strike and things like the monk's belt do not stack since they do not give a bonus (they increase your level for purpose of effects). It is a technicality ruling not a balance ruling. Many people don't know about it and even when they do they often don't use that ruling.

[Hirax]

One thing to note is that officially wizards says that superior unarmed strike and things like the monk's belt do not stack since they do not give a bonus (they increase your level for purpose of effects). It is a technicality ruling not a balance ruling. Many people don't know about it and even when they do they often don't use that ruling.

Source for the Wizards ruling? I've seen the exact opposite said.

[MeeposFire]

3.5 FAQ. It is in the monk's section. Like I said they base their decision on a technicality of that since the items don't give you a "bonus" and bonuses stack but you can't stack things that are not bonuses. There are a lot of people who don't use it (or don't know about most people don't read the FAQ and ask other people for rulings who also don't often know the FAQ).

[Hirax]

Huh. All the years I've seen that debate, nobody has ever pointed out that FAQ. Another nugget mined from this thread for me!

[MeeposFire]

Reading the FAQ is a long process since you won't know before hand whether your question is in there or where it is sometimes (for instance since this question and answer involved the monk, an item, and a feat would the answer be in monk, equipment, or feat? Answer is monk but you can see how it could be hard to find). Further for some of the answers people don't like the reasoning behind the answers. This would be one of them for many people. Some people would say that the act of increasing the level makes it a bonus even though it is not called that in the description. Hence why I said it is a ruling based on a technicality. Most people play them so that they stack as far as I have seen but I like to bring it up in case somebody wants to know how the people that design and work for the company that makes the game feel on the matter officially.

Reading the FAQ can be very interesting to be sure though.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Could one make an Int-based monk using Tashalatora, Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, and leveling it with Psion rather than Psychic Warrior?

[MeeposFire]

Sure. It costs more but you could. There is also a feat for monk psions in secrets of sarlona already though I do not recall what it does at this time.

Tashalatora works with any psionic class.

[Greenish]

What are you using to get to choose your damage type on regular unarmed strikes without spending a feat or using an item that the kalashtar could not also use?Shifting Steel warforged monk ACF (from City of Stormreach).

Could one make an Int-based monk using Tashalatora, Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, and leveling it with Psion rather than Psychic Warrior?Yeah, but given that psion doesn't really have chassis (or quite the power selection) for physical fighting, you'd be burning a level and a feat for int to AC and little else.

[MeeposFire]

Shifting Steel warforged monk ACF (from City of Stormreach).
Yeah, but given that psion doesn't really have chassis (or quite the power selection) for physical fighting, you'd be burning a level and a feat for int to AC and little else.

OO good find. I remember there being ACFs in stormreach but I lack that book so I did not know what they are. I can get constant piercing and bludgeoning from a battlefist for my kalashtar but slashing is something I can not replicate without spending a feat. I still think that kalashtar edge out warforged slightly but it is close. By the way what do you have to give up for that ACF?

Ture that on psions though you can get a number of those powers back by going egoist. To be honest you don't do that to place tashlatora on psion you place tashalatora on your prc like slayer and use psion for the manisfesting.

[Greenish]

By the way what do you have to give up for that ACF?Nuttin'. The two ACFs in the book allow you to replace the monk's redundant immunities (that a warforged already has) with somewhat useful abilities.

Oh, and if your DM goes by RoE instead of ECS (or was it PGtE, or both), even adamantine plating doesn't interrupt monk class features. Then there are some minor stuff like crit immunity with a feat and stuff…

[MeeposFire]

I just looked in all three of those books quickly and I can't find what you are talking about. The campaign setting and Races of Eberron have the adamantine feat and they appear to use identical wording which includes "considered to be wearing heavy armor" and in the special line says that it affects class features as if you were wearing heavy armor. I did not see anything about the body feats in PGtE.

[Greenish]

I just looked in all three of those books quickly and I can't find what you are talking about. The campaign setting and Races of Eberron have the adamantine feat and they appear to use identical wording which includes "considered to be wearing heavy armor" and in the special line says that it affects class features as if you were wearing heavy armor. I did not see anything about the body feats in PGtE.RoE page 23, "Warforged as characters - Monk".

[MeeposFire]

That says you can take those feats as a monk. Which I knew you can (you fulfill prerequisites there is no rules ambiguity there) but it does not say that warforged monks can ignore the light armor/heavy armor issue with their class features. Any monk for instance can wear leather armor, it is within the rules, they just can't use their flurry ability and stuff like that. I was looking for something that said they can ignore the fact it counts as heavy/light armor.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

What would be the best way to do Int-based Monk?

[Hiro Protagonest]

What would be the best way to do Int-based Monk?

Monk/factotum. Or just factotum with superior unarmed strike.

[TechnoScrabble]

Magic gloves. Magic quarterstaff. Magic nunchuks and whatnot.
Plus, focus less on statting and more on fun. What are you, a munchkin? GET UP AND RP LIKE A DWARF! YEEEEEAAAH! RRRRRAAAAAA! BROFIIIISSSST!

[MeeposFire]

Warblade would work. Just take unarmed feats and go to town.

[Cog]

Could one make an Int-based monk using Tashalatora, Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, and leveling it with Psion rather than Psychic Warrior?
Erudite can pull this off better than regular Psion. There's a Favored Discipline ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) to get them much broader access to the Psychometabolism powers you'd be looking for.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I ask because someone in my current party is playing a monk, going for a Batman style. I suggested going intelligence based, since he's dumped Wisdom anyways (low-op group, for the most part. Myself and the other DM are the only people who do decent optimization, and the other DM does it mostly by accident [can't really go wrong with an Adamantine Warforge Metal Master Druid.])

I've been meaning to help him with a complete rebuild (we've just reached level 3, so not much to do there) but I'm not entirely sure the best way to go about it.

[MeeposFire]

Actually you can go very wrong with adamantine body and a monk considering that having that feat prevents your druid from casting spells and using class abilities. I would say that is going very wrong. Unless metal master is some prc or feat I don't know about.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Metal Master Druid is a variant that allows druids to cast and be proficient in any weapons or armor made of metal.

[MeeposFire]

Neat where is that from? Don't tell me Stormreach. I swear if that book catches me twice in one thread...:smalltongue:

[Maeglin_Dubh]

No, Dragon. Which is probably why it's such a ludicrous combo. Don't expect most DM's to accept it, but since (like I said) I'm the only one who even tries to make anything optimized, whoever's DMing tends to let things slide so people can keep up.

[MeeposFire]

Phew I don't mind missing 3e dragon content since that is the epitome of lack of play testing and their is way too much of it to keep track of all of it.

Good to know though. Really it is a feat to allow for something that normal druids will get via money anyway (wild leaf armor for the win).

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Not a feat, a whole alternate class. Changes the spell list and everything.

[MeeposFire]

Oh woops. :smallredface:

[holywhippet]

Huh. So they retconned the Complete Divine writing of that item. Good to know.

How does that work in game though? Can a player craft whichever version they want (provided they meet the requirements) by paying the appropriate costs? Or does the magic compendium version override the complete divine version since it was published later?

Hang on, the one in complete divine is called "Gauntlet of the Talon" while in the magic compendium it's "Gauntlets of the Talon" - being a pair of gauntlets. Do they count as the same item?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

How does that work in game though? Can a player craft whichever version they want (provided they meet the requirements) by paying the appropriate costs? Or does the magic compendium version override the complete divine version since it was published later?

Hang on, the one in complete divine is called "Gauntlet of the Talon" while in the magic compendium it's "Gauntlets of the Talon" - being a pair of gauntlets. Do they count as the same item?

Me thinks yes. If you read the text in Complete Divine they refer to the item as "Gauntlets of the Talon".

[Cog]

Or does the magic compendium version override the complete divine version since it was published later?
This. The MIC was specifically intended to "fix" a number of abilities and prices in addition to serving as a reference.

[Curmudgeon]

How does that work in game though? Can a player craft whichever version they want (provided they meet the requirements) by paying the appropriate costs? Or does the magic compendium version override the complete divine version since it was published later?
The way the update rule works is that if any part of your game uses a source book with updates, the earlier (pre-update) versions are not available. You don't get to pick and choose among updates any more than you get to pick and choose whether to use errata. If it's available, you've got to go with the new material (and errata are freely available to everybody, so there's no choice there).

If, however, nobody (including the DM) uses the book with the updates in it, the earlier stuff (only) is available in that campaign, because the newer versions don't exist. You still don't get to pick and choose, but WotC can't force you to spend money on new books.

[gourdcaptain]

Arguing you want a less supernatural monk replacement is a bit odd when the base class already has Dimension Door. The PF monk is better, but I'm not sure by how much in the grand scheme of things, and I doubt most DMs will let you use it when not playing PF.

[Greenish]

This. The MIC was specifically intended to "fix" a number of abilities and prices in addition to serving as a reference.And by and large it really did fix (improve) the prices and abilities. There are a few exceptions (say, Parrying), but for the most part the enhancements and magic items changed in MIC were changed for the better.

[MeeposFire]

Arguing you want a less supernatural monk replacement is a bit odd when the base class already has Dimension Door. The PF monk is better, but I'm not sure by how much in the grand scheme of things, and I doubt most DMs will let you use it when not playing PF.

PF monks are not really any better. They still have much of the same problems. For instance flurry is still a full attack action but most of their abilities are still movement based. In another thread I have listed how PF actually nerfed the monk. Yes you heard that right they actually nerfed the monk in a few minor ways while giving them a few small boosts. The PF is better at some individual things (such as grappling and tripping) but it probably was not improved enough to raise it even a tier.

[The Glyphstone]

PF monks are not really any better. They still have much of the same problems. For instance flurry is still a full attack action but most of their abilities are still movement based. In another thread I have listed how PF actually nerfed the monk. Yes you heard that right they actually nerfed the monk in a few minor ways while giving them a few small boosts. The PF is better at some individual things (such as grappling and tripping) but it probably was not improved enough to raise it even a tier.

On the other hand, PF Monks can apparently actually be fun to play, based on reports from some people I've talkd to. Their numbers haven't gotten any better, or their versatility, but it's an interesting phenomenon how much more involved a class can feel by adding something as simple as the Ki points. And these are people who would never play a 3.5 Monk due to its boring, repetitive nature, but love playing a PF Monk even as they acknowledge its failings remain in place.

[MeeposFire]

On the other hand, PF Monks can apparently actually be fun to play, based on reports from some people I've talkd to. Their numbers haven't gotten any better, or their versatility, but it's an interesting phenomenon how much more involved a class can feel by adding something as simple as the Ki points. And these are people who would never play a 3.5 Monk due to its boring, repetitive nature, but love playing a PF Monk even as they acknowledge its failings remain in place.

Well I have met people that liked playing a 3.5 monk (I did for one) but it is weak and the PF monk did not fix that (which was the question I was answering). I do not equate power to fun in a vacuum (if I know a player likes playing somebody powerful I would say the monk is not for fun for him but for other players it could be very fun). I have nothing against having fun in any class but I will discuss the benefits or problems related to any class I know.

I had a LOT of fun playing a truenamer once but I will tell you they are not game breaking even if you put forth the effort to make them work and I would let somebody know that (on all counts as truenamers have great fluff) .