Why are half-orcs portrayed as ugly?

[Sacrieur]

I mean open up your player's handbook and look at the female half-orc. And if that's what a half-orc looks like, then apparently a full on orc probably makes people throw up on sight. I challenge this barbaric and stupid clichè. On behalf of all half-orcs and in an attempt to appeal to the artist in me, I would like to point out (as do many others) a low Cha does not mean ugly, it can also be mannerisms, personality, etc.

That said, I refuse to accept that half-orcs look like this:

http://www.worldofcharun.net/images/thumb/b/b7/Halforc1.jpg/225px-Halforc1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ytU6dUQrIfU/S9Wj97e-RwI/AAAAAAAACCA/jODZVFgtLW0/s1600/orc.jpg

and welcome them being like:

http://www.mortalonline.com/files/races/FemaleHalfOrcInText.jpghttp://daotyr.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/risar-the-half-orc-from-mortal-online.jpg

As such, I refute any notion of artwork provided by WotC, on account that some of it is absolutely terrible.

[Marnath]

I guess you've never seen the halforc woman in the monster manual 4? Halforc infiltrator I think? She's almost human looking.

[TroubleBrewing]

IIRC, in the PHB they suggest that half-orcs do not breed true. As such, each individual half-orc's appearance would depend on how good-looking their human parent and their orc parent were.

[Hiro Protagonest]

4e in general has better artwork, half-orcs are no exception.

Here's the 4e half-orcs. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090323081112/forgottenrealms/images/3/35/4e_half-orcs.jpg

[Sacrieur]

4e in general has better artwork, half-orcs are no exception.

Here's the 4e half-orcs. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090323081112/forgottenrealms/images/3/35/4e_half-orcs.jpg

What 4e makes up for in artwork, it ruins in gameplay.

[Ravens_cry]

Because they are half ORCS and ORCS in MOST fantasy settings are rather ugly by human standards. I don't mind them being ugly myself, one of my favourite pictures is this half orc paladin (http://www.fantasygallery.net/zug/art_4_Half-Orc-Paladin.html) who reminds me of the rather gonk looking priest in Princess Mononoke, only more ugly. But beauty does not equal goodness and it is downright dangerous to think so.

[sengmeng]

Some would be, some wouldn't. Technically, they can have a 16 charisma with the racial penalty... better looking than a typical elf. On the other hand, if you want to illustrate a character with low charisma, it's hard to portray their bad manners compared to their bad looks.

[Sarco_Phage]

Because they are half ORCS and ORCS in MOST fantasy settings are rather ugly by human standards. I don't mind them being ugly myself, one of my favourite pictures is this half orc paladin (http://www.fantasygallery.net/zug/art_4_Half-Orc-Paladin.html) who reminds me of the rather gonk looking priest in Princess Mononoke, only more ugly. But beauty does not equal goodness and it is downright dangerous to think so.

Aw man, that dude looks so chill. SO CHILL.

Anyway, why are we still perpetuating the ridiculous myth that CHA = physical appearance? It's called a mental stat for a bloody good reason.

Also, consider a venerable sorcerer with 22 CHA, flat. Don't try and tell me his 22 charisma corresponds to his damn looks.

Hell, look at XYKON. Caster, primary stat CHA. Only necrophiliacs consider him good looking.

[Sacrieur]

Because they are half ORCS and ORCS in MOST fantasy settings are rather ugly by human standards. I don't mind them being ugly myself, one of my favourite pictures is this half orc paladin (http://www.fantasygallery.net/zug/art_4_Half-Orc-Paladin.html) who reminds me of the rather gonk looking priest in Princess Mononoke, only more ugly. But beauty does not equal goodness and it is downright dangerous to think so.

I hate that stereotype, it makes me want to stab people. At the same time have you seen the elf in the Player's Handbook? *shudders*

It's completely unfair to view an 8 Cha as brusque, rude, and ugly. Pick one of the three and I think that's a good representation of 8 Cha. It's like saying people with 8 Int can't remember things, learn things, and enjoy intellectual pursuits. It could certainly be that your character can't remember things well, but learns them fine, or can't learn things well, but can remember things. And there's nothing wrong with a 8 Int half-orc who likes puzzles.

[GoatBoy]

Eberron stresses that their half-orcs are almost human-looking, so it may depend on the setting. Some of the female orcs in Warcraft, for example, aren't so bad:


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071220190015/wowwiki/images/thumb/6/6f/Garona3.jpg/302px-Garona3.jpg

[Solaris]

Why does every race have to be pretty? Personally, I rather like half-orcs (and orcs) looking inhuman, not 'people with green skin and fangs'.

[Sacrieur]

Why does every race have to be pretty? Personally, I rather like half-orcs (and orcs) looking inhuman, not 'people with green skin and fangs'.

Not always. I mean there's going to be a variation with every race, and I'm okay with the convention that trolls aren't necessarily pretty or even average. If you want to play an ugly half-orc you fully well should be allowed to, it's just you shouldn't not be allowed to play a pretty half-orc.

[Jopustopin]

Somewhere close to exactly half of all humans are below average in the looks department.

Orcs are a race that humans do not find attractive.

A half-orc would be a mix between these two.

Buf if half of all humans are below average in attractiveness, induction would tell us that half-orcs would be largely below average in attractiveness.


There will be some attractive half orcs (my favorite (http://dragos.elfwood.com/art/d/r/dragos/halforcfemale_small.jpg)) but most are going to be butt ugly and strong as hell. It's called a bell curve.

[Ravens_cry]

Aw man, that dude looks so chill. SO CHILL.

Anyway, why are we still perpetuating the ridiculous myth that CHA = physical appearance? It's called a mental stat for a bloody good reason.
That's not why I think they should be ugly. It's because their ancestry is partly a race that is ugly to human eyes.



Also, consider a venerable sorcerer with 22 CHA, flat. Don't try and tell me his 22 charisma corresponds to his damn looks.
I don't know. I mean, Sir Sean Connery and Sir Patrick Stewart are certainly faces that have ripened with age. But in general, yeah, it's not so much a myth as a incomplete statement. Physical beauty can be a component of charisma, but it is rarely, if ever, the whole picture.


Hell, look at XYKON. Caster, primary stat CHA. Only necrophiliacs consider him good looking. Lichloved feat, the squick the keeps on squicking.:smalleek:


I hate that stereotype, it makes me want to stab people. At the same time have you seen the elf in the Player's Handbook? *shudders*
Yeah, Mialee is a bit odd looking, but she isn't a human, so why shouldn't she? She's the kind of person I would have a nice chat over some mulled wine while discussing thermdynamic flux from exotermic arcane events. Her clothes are the only thing that make me want to laugh.

[Sacrieur]

Somewhere close to exactly half of all humans are below average in the looks department.

Orcs are a race that humans do not find attractive.

A half-orc would be a mix between these two.

Buf if half of all humans are below average in attractiveness, induction would tell us that half-orcs would be largely below average in attractiveness.


There will be some attractive half orcs (my favorite (http://dragos.elfwood.com/art/d/r/dragos/halforcfemale_small.jpg)) but most are going to be butt ugly and strong as hell. It's called a bell curve.

Link is broken.

---

This all stems from orcs being butt-ugly. Or being muscular as hell. I'm sorry, +2 Str is not that much muscle, especially since the top human lifters have Str scores of 19-20 and look like this:

http://www.ptcfrankston.com/doc/newsletter/86/11.jpg

[Solaris]

Not always. I mean there's going to be a variation with every race, and I'm okay with the convention that trolls aren't necessarily pretty or even average. If you want to play an ugly half-orc you fully well should be allowed to, it's just you shouldn't not be allowed to play a pretty half-orc.

Honestly, all four of those pictures look like they're the same race, given variation inherent in such a hybrid. The bottom two look cooler because of difference in execution - the 'ugly' male picture is definitely the same breed as the 'not' pictures. The 'ugly' female simply has a more orcish nose. Generally speaking, the primary difference (besides the tusks) between a half-orc and a human is that the human is gracile, while the half-orc is more robust. A lot come up with porcine noses, but that depends on what the orcs are like and whether or not that particular half-orc inherited the trait.
But as to the proposal to play a handsome half-orc, if not a beautiful one? I imagine that if orcs find humans attractive, they'd certainly be able to find a half-orc attractive. Attractive by general human standards isn't out of the question, either. There are folks who find cat ears and tails attractive, so why not tusks and bodybuilder physiques?

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm sorry, +2 Str is not that much muscle, especially since the top human lifters have Str scores of 19-20

This is a discussion that basically everybody's seen. I'm aware. Regardless, I feel obligated to share.

This link would like a word with your assumptions about real-world ability scores. (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)

[Crossblade]

I gotta say; the second half orc in the first spoiler of the OP and the second half orc in second spoiler, look an aweful lot alike.

I think this boils down to a "beauty in the eye of the beholder" deal.
<Insert monster pun here>


Personally, to validate my opinion, I would like to make an example of Elves from Dragon Age 2. Lots of people don't like how they look, lots of people do. Elves in general for the fantasy aspect of things, are always considered attractive regardless.

[Jopustopin]

the +2 strength just indicates that the bell curve on strength is shifted to the right. The average half-orc is stronger than the average human. I don't see what the problem is.

Here is the half-orc I was talking about
(I hope this works: http://www.elfwood.com/art/d/r/dragos/halforcfemale_small.jpg)

[Sacrieur]

Honestly, all four of those pictures look like they're the same race, given variation inherent in such a hybrid. The bottom two look cooler because of difference in execution - the 'ugly' male picture is definitely the same breed as the 'not' pictures. The 'ugly' female simply has a more orcish nose. Generally speaking, the primary difference (besides the tusks) between a half-orc and a human is that the human is gracile, while the half-orc is more robust. A lot come up with porcine noses, but that depends on what the orcs are like and whether or not that particular half-orc inherited the trait.
But as to the proposal to play a handsome half-orc, if not a beautiful one? I imagine that if orcs find humans attractive, they'd certainly be able to find a half-orc attractive. Attractive by general human standards isn't out of the question, either. There are folks who find cat ears and tails attractive, so why not tusks and bodybuilder physiques?

I always found orcs to look ludicrously hideous, rather than just downright scary. This is what I think more or less should be along the lines of what a proper orc should look like:

http://www.totalwallpapers.com/fantasy/wallpapers/dark-warrior.jpg

Scary.

[Jopustopin]

I always found orcs to look ludicrously hideous, rather than just downright scary. This is what I think more or less should be along the lines of what a proper orc should look like:

http://www.totalwallpapers.com/fantasy/wallpapers/dark-warrior.jpg

Scary.

Tolkien invented the modern use of the word Orc. I recall the movie Lord of the Rings. They seemed particularly ugly. I disagree with your argument, tis all. I think orcs are ugly by human standards and stronger than humans on average. Of course you're free to change it in any game you run.

In my game, an attractive half-orc would be much rarer than an attractive human (this is just statistics in action).

[Ravens_cry]

I always found orcs to look ludicrously hideous, rather than just downright scary. This is what I think more or less should be along the lines of what a proper orc should look like:

http://www.totalwallpapers.com/fantasy/wallpapers/dark-warrior.jpg

Scary.
How do you differentiate that from say, some Elf Druid? Not everything is beautiful to human eyes, we are not the centre of the universe, so why should everything look appealing to us?
I am sorry, but I find that just as ridiculous as any of the most over the top WAAGH! Warhammer Orks.

[Sacrieur]

Tolkien invented the modern use of the word Orc. I recall the movie Lord of the Rings. They seemed particularly ugly. I disagree with your argument, tis all. I think orcs are ugly by human standards and stronger than humans on average. Of course you're free to change it in any game you run.

In my game, an attractive half-orc would be much rarer than an attractive human (this is just statistics in action).

This falls under the assumption that lower Cha automatically means ugly.



How do you differentiate that from say, some Elf Druid? Not everything is beautiful to human eyes, we are not the centre of the universe, so why should everything look appealing to us?
I am sorry, but I find that just as ridiculous as any of the most over the top WAAGH! Warhammer Orks.

That's one scary elf druid.

[Jopustopin]

I am not assuming that at all. Charisma has absolutely nothing to do with attractiveness (or at least it shouldn't).

[faceroll]

Why does every race have to be pretty? Personally, I rather like half-orcs (and orcs) looking inhuman, not 'people with green skin and fangs'.

Same. I don't like everything being sexy and sleek. That said, the last pic in the OP's post looks pretty sweet.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I am not assuming that at all. Charisma has absolutely nothing to do with attractiveness (or at least it shouldn't).

It should to some extent, but I think that attractiveness is based on roughly 45% charisma, 40% dexterity, and 15% strength. Strength is due to fit people being skinnier (for girls) or more muscular (for boys).

[faceroll]

It should to some extent, but I think that attractiveness is based on roughly 45% charisma, 40% dexterity, and 15% strength. Strength is due to fit people being skinnier (for girls) or more muscular (for boys).

Attractiveness should really be its own stat, if you want to model it. What people find attractive varies a lot between individuals and time periods.

[Ravens_cry]

That's one scary elf druid.
Some take the whole force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake) of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake) nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_fire) thing a bit more seriously. Remember, natural doesn't mean nice.

[TroubleBrewing]

\Strength is due to fit people being skinnier (for girls) or more muscular (for boys).

(This is totally nitpicking, and I'm reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy sorry about it)

If you find skinny girls and/or muscular guys attractive.

/nitpick

[Adrayll]

Attractiveness should really be its own stat, if you want to model it. What people find attractive varies a lot between individuals and time periods.

This happened, and it was kind of a mess. (BoEF)

[Sarco_Phage]

This happened, and it was kind of a mess. (BoEF)

CoC has APP as a separate stat, of course.

[Ravens_cry]

1st Edtion AD&D Unearthed Arcana had the Comeliness stat and it was even worse. Basically, only Evil people liked Ugly people.

[Sacrieur]

Attractiveness should really be its own stat, if you want to model it. What people find attractive varies a lot between individuals and time periods.

You would like how oWoD attributes look:

http://2.forumer.com/uploads/metanet/post-24-1132417509.png

I've always favored them over the D&D system. A lot.

[TroubleBrewing]

Broken link. Just thought you'd like to know.

[IthroZada]

It seems pretty simple to me. The lower Charisma is due to the nature of orcs and to a lesser extent, half orcs, which is partly due to cultural differences (like dwarves), and partly to being somewhat closer to animals in mannerism. The reason they are often unattractive is because orcs are usually portrayed as ugly furry creatures with pig noses, rough skin, and fangs. Which humans find unattractive and half orcs inherit to varying degrees.

So when you are descended from what practically amounts to a monster in a humanoid shape in 90% of references, you are going to be ugly by human standards, which is entirely subjective.

[nyarlathotep]

I personally like the classic half-orc paladin picture, but would say that how half-orcs should be dependent on how orcs and humans look in your campaign world. If it's warhammer greenskins then their children will at least be a bit off (very square jaw, greenish skin tone, and larger than normal teeth) if not ugly. If we're talking d&d's fuzzy semi-apes (just meaning they look kind of like gorillas nothing racist) then the half-orc children would likely look just fine, longer than normal facial and body hair and maybe an underbite.

[Ravens_cry]

And if it's AD&D Pig Faced Orcs, well, the rules explicitly said that 90% of half orcs are pretty monstrous in appearance.

[Sacrieur]

I personally like the classic half-orc paladin picture, but would say that how half-orcs should be dependent on how orcs and humans look in your campaign world. If it's warhammer greenskins then their children will at least be a bit off (very square jaw, greenish skin tone, and larger than normal teeth) if not ugly. If we're talking d&d's fuzzy semi-apes (just meaning they look kind of like gorillas nothing racist) then the half-orc children would likely look just fine, longer than normal facial and body hair and maybe an underbite.

My problem is with giving them Gorilla builds without giving them Gorilla strength. A Gorilla can easily lift 800 lbs. That said, they have strength scores of 26-28 on average. No joke. They're like 8x stronger on average than our strongest lifters (note: don't piss off a gorilla).

A mere +2 Str adjustment does not do this justice to just how awe-inspiring a gorilla build is. There's a lot of this inspiring realism represented in D&D, and how weapon weights and such are represented accurately. If that's true, then don't give gorilla builds to things that don't have gorilla strength.

http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/gorillareal.jpg

I dunno about you, but I would /not/ steal his bananas. No seriously, I'm pretty sure he looks angry that people think orcs are as strong as he is.

Gorillas can rip half-orcs in half, don't be hatin' on gorillas man.

[TroubleBrewing]

He just said they look like semi-apes. Not that they were full-on Gorilla men with the strength of the aforementioned noble ape. :smallamused:

[Sacrieur]

He just said they look like semi-apes. Not that they were full-on Gorilla men with the strength of the aforementioned noble ape. :smallamused:

See that's the thing though. I'm not saying they are apes, I'm saying they're given the muscular build of an ape. Look at this here:

http://www.narragansett.k12.ri.us/NHS/computer/Second_Semester_07-08/second_semester-2008_period_6A/Steven_Buchanan_WoW_Site/images/rezzar.jpg

I'll be damned if they're that muscular. I'm saying strength should somewhat reflect build size. I don't want to see a half-orc the size of Ronnie Coleman (http://www.ebodybuilding.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ronnie-coleman2.jpg) if his strength is only a 14 or 15.

[Sarco_Phage]

That looks like a Warcraft Beastmaster to me, bro.

[Sacrieur]

That looks like a Warcraft Beastmaster to me, bro.

It's comparative to the PHB or even this (http://webelf.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/half_orc_paladin.jpg?w=420).

[Sarco_Phage]

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/Krusk_1092441038.jpg
Krusk be stylin'

[Worira]

I think they're ugly because orcs are ugly, and they're half orc, so they're ugly.

[Sacrieur]

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/Krusk_1092441038.jpg
Krusk be stylin'

I don't even... It's like the artists sat down together and went, "let's put one good picture into the PHB, just to fool them ahahahaha!"

[nyarlathotep]

See that's the thing though. I'm not saying they are apes, I'm saying they're given the muscular build of an ape. Look at this here:

http://www.narragansett.k12.ri.us/NHS/computer/Second_Semester_07-08/second_semester-2008_period_6A/Steven_Buchanan_WoW_Site/images/rezzar.jpg

I'll be damned if they're that muscular. I'm saying strength should somewhat reflect build size. I don't want to see a half-orc the size of Ronnie Coleman (http://www.ebodybuilding.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ronnie-coleman2.jpg) if his strength is only a 14 or 15.

While I can agree this the sentiment that particular picture is of a half-orc/half-ogre so he kind of does deserve a more than muscular appearance.

That and krusk is a fairly good representation of Str 17 or 19 whichever he was canonically.

[Worira]

Also, if it's a half-orc barbarian, chances are it doesn't have 14-15 strength, any more than human barbarians tend to have 12-13 strength.

[Amnestic]

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/Krusk_1092441038.jpg
Krusk be stylin'

http://wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102037.jpg

Damn right :smallamused:

[Sacrieur]

http://wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102037.jpg

Damn right :smallamused:

Is that bard wearing a cup?

[Ravens_cry]

Is that bard wearing a cup?
The word you are looking for is codpiece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece). (may not be SFW)

[averagejoe]

I always found orcs to look ludicrously hideous, rather than just downright scary. This is what I think more or less should be along the lines of what a proper orc should look like:

http://www.totalwallpapers.com/fantasy/wallpapers/dark-warrior.jpg

Scary.

:smallconfused: I'm not sure what you mean. You think orcs should always be in shadowy lighting, backlit by an eerie green glow, standing in a cool and threatening pose while staring at you with a scowl and glowy eyes? Because the reason this guy is scary doesn't really have anything to do with his actual physical appearance. Put him somewhere well lit and he'd look downright silly. I guarantee it.

Even the, "Better," pictures you put in the OP seemed to just put the horcs in cooler poses and whiten them up a little. Is this more of an art complaint than a, "How horc morphology should be," complaint?

[Amnestic]

Is that bard wearing a cup?

Gotta protect yourself from aggressive and incredibly creepy fans. No bard should leave home without one!

Since Rexxar (Half-Orc, Half-Ogre) was brought up..

I have found a total of *two* pictures depicting WC Half-Orcs/Half-Humans:
(Warning: Kinda large picture)
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/b/b4/Half-orc.jpg
This first one is by Metzen. Pretty standard affair really, slightly less beefy version of your standard Orc. This other one on the other hand...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Amnestic/sal.jpg
I'm not sure which artist did this (Shadows and Light, the D20 book I took this from, has 17 interior artists and I'm not sure whose signature 'symbol' that is in the bottom left.) Whoever did this I...it looks terrible.

Might be my untrained eyes, but the art in this second picture is god awful. The Half-Orc himself isn't too bad, the troubles start when your eyes pan up to the Tauren who appears to have a giant cancerous lump roughly twice the size of his head sticking out of his side, on top of his impossibly beefy forearms and ridiculous stance of his legs. The weird head positioning on the Elf and the bizarre stances/heights of the humans in the background doesn't inspire that much confidence either.

[Halae]

Personally, I'm of the school of thought that each different GM and player (And thus, every individual instance of every world ever thought up) has a different idea regarding how half-orcs should look, even my miniscule amounts. Look at this for example

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/pyranack/ravine__mesadee_ripper_by_nebezial-d3807kp.jpg

She looks tough as nails. she could probably kick ass and, looking t those blades, cut people in half at the same time. she's very orcy, and yet she's quite attractive, at least to my eyes. This is how I envision Half-Orcs to be. This is how I think they should be, as a race that can breed with humans should have some similarities in appearance, rather than those baboon things on page 23 of the DMG. It's something like the relationship between lions and tigers - they share the same number of chromosomes and can breed with each other, and the offspring aren't infertile. Half-orcs are the same way, and thus should have similarities.

[Sarco_Phage]

The weird head positioning on the Elf

That's just her realizing that no one in the picture should have functioning bodies, given that they're all malformed lumps of tissue.

[Leon]

More Human

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/347/8/8/Half_Orc_Paladin_by_GRB76.jpg

[Khatoblepas]

This is what I think more or less should be along the lines of what a proper orc should look like:

http://www.totalwallpapers.com/fantasy/wallpapers/dark-warrior.jpg

Scary.

That is a buff, horny elf with Vegeta's face. That is not an orc. It's not even part of an orc. It's a silly looking elf. Not everything needs to be highly toned with pointy ears and a scowly face.

I always made orcs piglike, and their massiveness isn't just muscle, it's just mass. +4 Str is nothing to laugh at on a humanoid. I imagine them looking something like this:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Pigman_5816.jpg
Particularily high charisma, though. Inhuman, but not lumpen or elven.

And as for half orcs.. well. A more piglike human. :P Upturned nose, tusks, stocky build. Not pretty due to the fact that they're closer to human but not actually human. I don't like lumpy, unappealing demihumans simply because it doesn't look right. You can have different morphology without adding cankers and tumors to things or giving them silly pointy ears.

[Sacrieur]

That is a buff, horny elf with Vegeta's face. That is not an orc. It's not even part of an orc. It's a silly looking elf. Not everything needs to be highly toned with pointy ears and a scowly face.

I always made orcs piglike, and their massiveness isn't just muscle, it's just mass. +4 Str is nothing to laugh at on a humanoid. I imagine them looking something like this:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Pigman_5816.jpg
Particularily high charisma, though. Inhuman, but not lumpen or elven.

And as for half orcs.. well. A more piglike human. :P Upturned nose, tusks, stocky build. Not pretty due to the fact that they're closer to human but not actually human. I don't like lumpy, unappealing demihumans simply because it doesn't look right. You can have different morphology without adding cankers and tumors to things or giving them silly pointy ears.

It's funny, because I'd figure most warriors to have low bfat because, y'know, less fat = less weight = faster = not dead.

[Sarco_Phage]

It's funny, because I'd figure most warriors to have low bfat because, y'know, less fat = less weight = faster = not dead.

You figure wrong, buddy. Fat has historically proven to be a lifesaver. A 3-1% bodyfat toned guy isn't a warrior, he's a model.

[Khatoblepas]

It's funny, because I'd figure most warriors to have low bfat because, y'know, less fat = less weight = faster = not dead.

But orcs aren't particularily fast. They have a Strength bonus, not a Dex bonus.

And let me offer a counterpoint:

More body fat = more insulation against the elements and starvation = not dead the coming winter.

So yes, most orc warriors will also be "fat".

[Sacrieur]

You figure wrong, buddy. Fat has historically proven to be a lifesaver. A 3-1% bodyfat toned guy isn't a warrior, he's a model.

Pretty sure in a world where your party cleric can make food out of thin air, starvation isn't much of an issue.

[hamishspence]

Not just starvation (though that may be a factor for warriors that for some reason don't have a cleric).

Body fat helps protect a person from drowning, freezing to death, and can even reduce damage inflicted- absorbing some of a blow.

[Sarco_Phage]

Pretty sure in a world where your party cleric can make food out of thin air, starvation isn't much of an issue.

Fat against weapons, buddy. Someone with only a layer of muscle between a sword and his organs has less survivability than someone with an additional layer of fat. Not to mention the fact that fat people do not automatically move slower by any means, if they have the muscle to carry it.

Not to mention the fact that in not everyone in the world is in a party, or has access to a cleric. Unless this is some kind of PC world you're running. :smallamused:

[Sacrieur]

Fat against weapons, buddy. Someone with only a layer of muscle between a sword and his organs has less survivability than someone with an additional layer of fat. Not to mention the fact that fat people do not automatically move slower by any means, if they have the muscle to carry it.

Not to mention the fact that in not everyone in the world is in a party, or has access to a cleric. Unless this is some kind of PC world you're running. :smallamused:

If a blade connects with your skin, it's going through you like butter if sharpened right. Fat isn't any exception. Fat will only slow you down.



Not just starvation (though that may be a factor for warriors that for some reason don't have a cleric).

Body fat helps protect a person from drowning, freezing to death, and can even reduce damage inflicted- absorbing some of a blow.

Most warriors have more muscle mass than they have fat, and it has no significant impact on floating because of this. Fat traditionally helps with insulation; however, human males tend to gather most fat on their stomach, leading to inefficient and ineffectual insulation. We're not seals man, we don't have blubber. We're simply terribly adapted to the cold. We can shiver... and that's about it. Wear other animal's skin and make fire.

Furthermore, as for fat absorbing damage. To an extent, but not enough to make a difference. The weight gained in fat is simply not worth the protection offered against blunt damage, especially since fat is prone to bruising like any other part of the body. Most vital organs are protected by the rib cage / hips. The stomach (which is muscle and rather small while empty) is the only organ that will be protected efficiently, and even if a blade misses your vital organs, you very well might as well be dead if it slices through your gut, because you'll simply bleed out.

The only real advantage fat realistically offers is in the realm of sustenance, and even then not much is required, maybe 6-7% bfat is plenty sufficient to last a week or two, much longer in starvation mode.

[Sarco_Phage]

If a blade connects with your skin, it's going through you like butter if sharpened right.

Way to describe a fraction of medieval weapons.

Not to mention the fact that you seem to adhere to the ridiculous belief that breaching the gut skin is fatal due to "bleeding out". That's like getting pricked in the arm and having to go to the hospital.

[Kris Strife]

http://www.ptcfrankston.com/doc/newsletter/86/11.jpg

Maybe it's just me, but I think the guy on the left of the bottom right hand picture needs to see a doctor. Abdominals on one side start about 4 inches higher than on the other. :smalleek:

[Sarco_Phage]

No, he's just overdeveloped. It happens.

Besides, no human being is perfectly symmetrical.

[Khatoblepas]

Pretty sure in a world where your party cleric can make food out of thin air, starvation isn't much of an issue.

Obesity might, though. Post-Scarcity society, ho!


Most warriors have more muscle mass than they have fat, and it has no significant impact on floating because of this. Fat traditionally helps with insulation; however, human males tend to gather most fat on their stomach, leading to inefficient and ineffectual insulation. We're not seals man, we don't have blubber. We're simply terribly adapted to the cold. We can shiver... and that's about it. Wear other animal's skin and make fire.

But do Orcs?


If a blade connects with your skin, it's going through you like butter if sharpened right. Fat isn't any exception. Fat will only slow you down.

In a primitive society, your weapons of choice are:
A big stick
A stick with a sharp rock or chunk of iron on the end.
A big stick with nails in it.
An axe crafted by hand made by beating iron into a roughly sharp shape.

Since Orcs have an Int penalty, orccraft weaponry will not be the best around, and most weapons that easily come to hand are blunt force weapons. And what dissipates blunt force energy? Exactly.

That and being bigger makes you more intimidating, with more presence, and ergo you chase off other males for the attention of the ladies. Who's gonna make you scared more?

A preening bodybuilder?

Or Andre the Giant? :P

[nyarlathotep]

Most warriors have more muscle mass than they have fat, and it has no significant impact on floating because of this. Fat traditionally helps with insulation; however, human males tend to gather most fat on their stomach, leading to inefficient and ineffectual insulation. We're not seals man, we don't have blubber. We're simply terribly adapted to the cold. We can shiver... and that's about it. Wear other animal's skin and make fire.

Furthermore, as for fat absorbing damage. To an extent, but not enough to make a difference. The weight gained in fat is simply not worth the protection offered against blunt damage, especially since fat is prone to bruising like any other part of the body. Most vital organs are protected by the rib cage / hips. The stomach (which is muscle and rather small while empty) is the only organ that will be protected efficiently, and even if a blade misses your vital organs, you very well might as well be dead if it slices through your gut, because you'll simply bleed out.

The only real advantage fat realistically offers is in the realm of sustenance, and even then not much is required, maybe 6-7% bfat is plenty sufficient to last a week or two, much longer in starvation mode.

I think you're severely overestimating how much the fat slows someone down. We're not talking obese here just hefty, think the heavy from TF2 or the icelander's that participate in world's strongest man competitions every year and usually place high or win.

[Sarco_Phage]

A preening bodybuilder?

Or Andre the Giant? :P

Consider the fact also that bodybuilders sacrifice a lot of strength to gain mass. They are a lot weaker than they should be at their weights.

EDIT:

Obligatory Jay Cutler picture.
http://truefit.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/mr2.png

Sac'd probably doubt that the musclebound red guy is slower and weaker than this guy

http://www.criticalbench.com/images/Mark-Henry3.jpg

[Firechanter]

Who came up with the idea that Orcs should be green, anyway? Was that only Games Workhsop's misdoing?

Note that Tolkien never goes to great lengths describing his Orcs. iirc they are mainly "swarthy". And they may have fangs or tusks - I don't remember so clearly now.
Besides, the professor didn't differentiate between Orcs and Goblins -- both words were used interchangeably. Meanwhile, depicting Orcs as being bigger and Goblins as small and weakish is long established, but I don't know who came up with that.

Personally, I do like the LOTR movies' depiction of the Fighting Uruk-Hai for Orcs.

[Sacrieur]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the guy on the left of the bottom right hand picture needs to see a doctor. Abdominals on one side start about 4 inches higher than on the other. :smalleek:


No, he's just overdeveloped. It happens.

Besides, no human being is perfectly symmetrical.

That's not an abnormality or anything malignant, nor is it overdeveloped anything. It's just genetics. Genetically people can can have 6, 8, or 10 rectus abdominus sections. Additionally, people can have asymmetrical abs, it's rare, but people do (in fact, I do).



Way to describe a fraction of medieval weapons.

You should see how sharp Samurai blades are kept.



Not to mention the fact that you seem to adhere to the ridiculous belief that breaching the gut skin is fatal due to "bleeding out". That's like getting pricked in the arm and having to go to the hospital.

If that's the extent of the damage then it would be no worse if you had gotten hit without the fat. I'm talking about a full on laceration completely tearing belly fat into two halves.



Since Orcs have an Int penalty, orccraft weaponry will not be the best around, and most weapons that easily come to hand are blunt force weapons. And what dissipates blunt force energy? Exactly.

Fat doesn't do this too well. It doesn't act as some sort of absorbent Jello, it acts as well, fat. In fact, a blade will cut more easily through fat because it is less dense.



I think you're severely overestimating how much the fat slows someone down. We're not talking obese here just hefty, think the heavy from TF2 or the icelander's that participate in world's strongest man competitions every year and usually place high or win.

I've mentioned something before in a previous thread called force to mass ratio... Eh you can read about it here (http://www.precisionnutrition.com/big-squat-fast-sprint) (even though the link talks about sprinting). Basically less fat = better, because you'll weigh less.

If you have a bfat of 10-15% you should be fine, but there's no reason for you to be looking like:

http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/hossein.jpg

---


Personally, I do like the LOTR movies' depiction of the Fighting Uruk-Hai for Orcs.

So do I, I find them to look rather dashing:

http://www.pondrr.com/content/2011/03/1.jpg

[Sarco_Phage]

Why not? That guy would likely dish out tons of bonus STR damage with a greatsword, considering that mass goes towards strength instead of tone.

Also, you bring up the sharpness of samurai swords. Is it "Katanas are underpowered in d20" day again already?

[Sacrieur]

Why not? That guy would likely dish out tons of bonus STR damage with a greatsword, considering that mass goes towards strength instead of tone.

Also, you bring up the sharpness of samurai swords. Is it "Katanas are underpowered in d20" day again already?

Naaaaah, I'm just mentioning them as per reality. I mean potentially swords can be kept that sharp was the point.

Meh, if he wants to dish out all that +2 Str that's not but at most a year of training away from humans. Put into this perspective they're really not too terribly strong.

I'd rather be a Gorilla any day.

[Sarco_Phage]

That guy's probably a +5 at least, bro. An overhead lift at 20 str is only 400 pounds.

[Cartigan]

What 4e makes up for in artwork, it ruins in gameplay.

We are talking about Half-Orcs, not trolls.

[Sarco_Phage]

We are talking about Half-Orcs, not trolls.

Zing! :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

If that's the extent of the damage then it would be no worse if you had gotten hit without the fat. I'm talking about a full on laceration completely tearing belly fat into two halves.

Fat doesn't do this too well. It doesn't act as some sort of absorbent Jello, it acts as well, fat. In fact, a blade will cut more easily through fat because it is less dense.

This would suggest otherwise:

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html

[Sacrieur]

This would suggest otherwise:

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html

I stand corrected.

---

This leads me to my next goal: playing a gorilla that battles a tarrasque 1:1 and tears its head off.

[Sarco_Phage]

This would suggest otherwise:

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html

You'll forgive me if my primary source for the protective fat thing was Strong Belwas.

[Ravens_cry]

This would suggest otherwise:

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html
I was just about to point that out. Also, the stongest man in the world wasn't some super vein popping body builder that looks like a side of beef, it was Louis Cyr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Cyr). Look at him, the man was built like a tank. Look at a lot of more modern powerlifters as well, even at the Olympic level. There is a lot of muscle there, but there is as a lot of padding as well.

[Sacrieur]

I was just about to point that out. Also, the stongest man in the world wasn't some super vein popping body builder that looks like a side of beef, it was Louis Cyr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Cyr). Look at him, the man was built like a tank. Look at a lot of more modern powerlifters as well, even at the Olympic level. There is a lot of muscle there, but there is as a lot of padding as well.

At a certain point it becomes impossible to put on more muscle without gaining more weight. He clearly drank his milk.

[nyarlathotep]

Naaaaah, I'm just mentioning them as per reality. I mean potentially swords can be kept that sharp was the point.

Meh, if he wants to dish out all that +2 Str that's not but at most a year of training away from humans. Put into this perspective they're really not too terribly strong.

I'd rather be a Gorilla any day.

To be fair a katana was a weapon specifically designed to target lightly armored and unarmered targets. Speed and mobility was paramount because they didnt have enough iron to make large heavy suits of armor.

As opposed to Europe where iron armor was the norm and a sharp weapon alone was unimportant because it would just bounce off the armor. Weapons needed to either be crunching to break through or stabbing into weak points on the armor fat very much helps make a stab wound a trip to the hospital rather than a trip to the graveyard (wounds would still be serious but less likely to be fatal).

[Sarco_Phage]

Not really. Dave Bautista, Ronnie Coleman, and Jay Cutler all outmass Louis Cyr by a large margin.

[Cartigan]

Not really. Dave Bautista, Ronnie Coleman, and Jay Cutler all outmass Louis Cyr by a large margin.
You clearly don't understand the situation.
Fat people are gross and unhealthy. Your argument is invalid.

[Sarco_Phage]

You clearly don't understand the situation.
Fat people are gross and unhealthy. Your argument is invalid.

Oh... oh god.

All my life, I've ben so wrong. Thank you for opening my eyes! :smallcool:

[Sacrieur]

Not really. Dave Bautista, Ronnie Coleman, and Jay Cutler all outmass Louis Cyr by a large margin.

Size depends on a lot more factors than just muscle mass. There's things like creatine supplements that don't actually make you stronger, but make your muscles bigger. And water retention and all that jazz. Functional strength is well... Functional strength.



To be fair a katana was a weapon specifically designed to target lightly armored and unarmered targets. Speed and mobility was paramount because they didnt have enough iron to make large heavy suits of armor.

As opposed to Europe where iron armor was the norm and a sharp weapon alone was unimportant because it would just bounce off the armor. Weapons needed to either be crunching to break through or stabbing into weak points on the armor fat very much helps make a stab wound a trip to the hospital rather than a trip to the graveyard (wounds would still be serious but less likely to be fatal).

In reality knights were walking tanks, impervious to all but the most powerful of weaponry, like sneak attack ballistas and artillery shells.

Naw, but seriously, they really were tough as eff. I mean that armor had a tensile strength of <500 kPa, and they still packed a wallop. Nowadays we can make steel over twice as strong and lighter- but rifle rounds still go through it like paper. Makes me gape at how powerful rifles really are.

It's actually still interesting, well-made modern plate armor can stop most handgun rounds. Especially .22s, it laughs at those.

[Ravens_cry]

At a certain point it becomes impossible to put on more muscle without gaining more weight. He clearly drank his milk.Yes, but my point was high strength /= Adonis.

[Telonius]

Who came up with the idea that Orcs should be green, anyway? Was that only Games Workhsop's misdoing?

Note that Tolkien never goes to great lengths describing his Orcs. iirc they are mainly "swarthy". And they may have fangs or tusks - I don't remember so clearly now.
Besides, the professor didn't differentiate between Orcs and Goblins -- both words were used interchangeably. Meanwhile, depicting Orcs as being bigger and Goblins as small and weakish is long established, but I don't know who came up with that.

Personally, I do like the LOTR movies' depiction of the Fighting Uruk-Hai for Orcs.

Earliest instance of a "green orc" I've been able to find was from this forum (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=168363&page=2), where one of the posters mentions a 1976 piece of cover artwork by the Hildebrandts.
http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/captured.jpg

More generally, the idea of green human-like monsters and supernatural beings has been around for a long time. The "Green Man" and "Green Witch" of Celtic mythology have been around for about forever. "Little green men from Mars" have been around since at least 1906, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men). (Green, alien, threatening). They became really popularized in mainstream culture after the Roswell incident. (They even made it onto the Flintstones, with the Great Gazoo). Then in the 60s you have things like the Incredible Hulk (green, strong, angry, murderous tendencies), the Lizard from Spider-Man (Green, strong, scaly, smart, and evil). In 1978 you had Robert Asprin's "Myth" series which featured green-skinned demon Aahz - also strong, dangerous, grumpy, and Pervect.

So green was becoming associated with strong, temperamental, dangerous, monstrous characters from the 1960s on. It doesn't seem too far of a jump to apply that to orcs, who are generally depicted as strong, temperamental, dangerous, and monstrous.

It does look like Warhammer was the first gaming company to use green as the official orc color.

[Frozen_Feet]

Hell, look at XYKON. Caster, primary stat CHA. Only necrophiliacs consider him good looking.
Wrong. You make the mistake of thinking that physical attractiveness is solely sexual attractiveness. A lich's bones might be well-polished, decorated and clean - certainly not something to lust after, but having an artistic quality and grim beauty to them. I can think of a cup or a statue as beautiful even if they possess no similarity to humans - same applies to non-human living (and unliving) beings.

Take, for example, a wolf. I'm not attracted to wolves sexually in the slightest. But if I see a big, strong wolf with thick, glistening fur, bright eyes and sharp teeth, it can certainly be intimidating or even inspiring.

That said:


Attractiveness should really be its own stat, if you want to model it. What people find attractive varies a lot between individuals and time periods.
That's why I use Book of Erotic Fantasy. :smallwink: Well, and for the Sacred Prostitute PrC, but only so my Paladin build can be complete! :smallbiggrin:

This is a discussion that basically everybody's seen. I'm aware. Regardless, I feel obligated to share.

This link would like a word with your assumptions about real-world ability scores. (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)

You know, I've read that article numerous times. I endorse it's general message and agree on many of its points.

And I'd say those guys have above 18 strenght, exactly because I've calibrated my expections. To model some of the things high-end athletes do in real life, you sometimes have to give them ability scores that are above 18.


It's funny, because I'd figure most warriors to have low bfat because, y'know, less fat = less weight = faster = not dead.
Basic bodytypes would like to have a word with you. There are three: Endomorph, Mesomorph and Ectomorph. The first two gather muscle mass quickly. Second of them is the rarest of them all.

So because Endomorphs gather both muscle mass and fat easily and are more common than the lean-yet-muscular Mesomorphs, most warriors and others competing on highly strenght-dependent fields would most be round and stout, like many weightlifters whose pictures you've seen posted. The archetypical warrior really should be a bear-like man with a noticeable beer belly.

The thin guy is either the rogue or the wizard. XD

---

Anyways, back on the topic:

By my interpretation, Half-orcs should be bigger, stronger and more charismatic than their parents due to effect known as "hybrid vigor" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis). A half-orc would inherit both muscular physique of the orc parent and the social mindset of the human, meaning he could thrive in both worlds.

As for why plain orcs would have Cha penalty - first, they're less social. They communicate less overall, and tend to communicate on a more physical (read: violent) level than humans. This would naturally be off-putting to fragile humans, who might be severely hurt by normal orcish interaction.

Second, they look too masculine. While human women might occasionally lust over robust orc men (where did you think those half-orcs come from, huh?), for long-term relations or when they're pregnant women tend to prefer effeminate males. So after being knocked up by a lucky orc boy, a human girl would only see a big, oafish, predatory, dangerous man who is prone to cheating her and drive him away.

On the other hand, orc women would be so masculine that they'd register as men on a casual glance to... most humans really. They'd hardly be conventionally beautiful. This might be why everyone wonders where all the orc ladies went - they wouldn't know even if they saw one. This would leave iniative to the orc girl, but to her... human males are puny. Seriously, they look like wimps. Nothing like the big, strong, healthy orc lads back at home. So the orc girl would have to be in pretty serious heat and out of other potential suitors for half-orcs to happen.

Really, I believe humans might even look childish or undeveloped to orcs, so it'd take... a certain kind of orc to fancy humans. Overall, I don't think orcs would even lust after humans too often, because they'd think of them as prey. You don't do things to... your next lunch.

[Sarco_Phage]

Wrong. You make the mistake of thinking that physical attractiveness is solely sexual attractiveness. A lich's bones might be well-polished, decorated and clean - certainly not something to lust after, but having an artistic quality and grim beauty to them. I can think of a cup or a statue as beautiful even if they possess no similarity to humans - same applies to non-human living (and unliving) beings.

Xykon's high CHA score has nothing to do with his grim beauty. :smallamused:

That old bastard is simply as charming as seven dancing monkeymen, plain and simple.

[Telonius]

On the other hand, orc women would be so masculine that they'd register as men on a casual glance to... most humans really. They'd hardly be conventionally beautiful. This might be why everyone wonders where all the orc ladies went - they wouldn't know even if they saw one.

Hm, so would this be partially why they fight with Dwarves so much - because they're so similar? :smallwink:

[Frozen_Feet]

Xykon's high CHA score has nothing to do with his grim beauty. :smallamused:

That old bastard is simply as charming as seven dancing monkeymen, plain and simple.

The general point still stands, dammit! :smalltongue:


Hm, so would this be partially why they fight with Dwarves so much - because they're so similar? :smallwink:

Well duh. Most worlds even have their living environments overlapping. It's a bit like pitting weasels and mongooses against each other.

[Sacrieur]

Basic bodytypes would like to have a word with you. There are three: Endomorph, Mesomorph and Ectomorph. The first two gather muscle mass quickly. Second of them is the rarest of them all.

So because Endomorphs gather both muscle mass and fat easily and are more common than the lean-yet-muscular Mesomorphs, most warriors and others competing on highly strenght-dependent fields would most be round and stout, like many weightlifters whose pictures you've seen posted. The archetypical warrior really should be a bear-like man with a noticeable beer belly.

The thin guy is either the rogue or the wizard. XD

This is an inherently flawed and outdated system. It doesn't work that way, really. Muscular hypertrophy is a result of training, and how much fat you gain is dependent on how much you eat and how much you use. Some people have a natural tendency towards greater strength, and some people have a natural tendency towards obesity, but studies show that this natural ability does not carry one very far. Moreover, it changes from person to person.

[Frozen_Feet]

I've seen it advocated within scientific publications recently, so hardly. Modern version do acknowledge combinations of the three and note that training and diet are as or more important, but the basic dichtomy still holds true.

Natural ability alone does not carry anyone far, but it adds up with training. So if you take an endomorph, a mesomorph and an ectomorph who for some reason have fairly similar physique (due to malnutrition, for example), and give them a similar diet and training, the differences will be clearly visible during its course. While the ectomorph and mesomorph can become as round as the endomorph, it takes significantly more food for them to become so. Likewise, while the ectomorph can become as strong as either of the others, it will take considerably more time and effort.

As people generally favor fields they're good at, this would reflect to make-up of any army as well.

[Sacrieur]

I've seen it advocated within scientific publications recently, so hardly. Modern version do acknowledge combinations of the three and note that training and diet are as or more important, but the basic dichtomy still holds true.

Natural ability alone does not carry anyone far, but it adds up with training. So if you take an endomorph, a mesomorph and an ectomorph who for some reason have fairly similar physique (due to malnutrition, for example), and give them a similar diet and training, the differences will be clearly visible during its course. While the ectomorph and mesomorph can become as round as the endomorph, it takes significantly more food for them to become so. Likewise, while the ectomorph can become as strong as either of the others, it will take considerably more time and effort.

As people generally favor fields they're good at, this would reflect to make-up of any army as well.

In modern publications? In peer-reviewed literature I haven't come across somatotypes. A quick search of pubmed yields no results save a single study, and really it has been outdated since the 1950s. It was proposed by a psychologist who also thought somatotypes gave good insight into a person's personality. And well... He's a psychologist, not a physiologist, or even a medical doctor. His knowledge of the human body is limited, especially since the knowledge of the human body was extremely limited compared to now.

As for the single study (link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21250087)):


Historically, attempts have been made to classify humans into discrete somatotypes (mesomorphic—muscular and athletic; endomorphic—rounded and stout; and ectomorphic—tall and thin), and to relate habitus to propensity to disease (e.g., habitus apoplectus). These terms have little clinical relevance today, and body size and habitus can be said to encompass the more quantifiable measurements of height, weight, body proportions, skinfold thickness, and mid–upper arm circumference. These measurements do not have true normal or abnormal values, but must be interpreted in the context of an individual's age, sex, clinical status, and previous measurements.


The study mentions that somatotypes are outdated and no longer relevant in a clinical (and thus scientific) setting, because they cannot accurately represent the populace, and are well... Wrong.


In the 1950s, genetics were not fully realized. At all. We only completed the human genome project in 2003. Needless to say, Sheldon's theory has slipped out of the scientific community since the 1960s, but it's still used abundantly by those who do not understand human physiology.

---

AWERAWetalwkentkla;emtlakwet. I hit a wrong button and it ruined my wall o' text. Anyway, you'll find relevant information here (http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/) that may give you the best explanations around without opening a textbook. Other than that muscular hypertrophy and fat catabolism could not be described so simply.

---

TL;DR: Sheldon was a psychologist. He does not have expertise in physiology. He was wrong.

[LOTRfan]

The Orcs in my campaign tend to be slightly shorter than the average human, with hunched backs, long arms, and bow-legs. Depending on the bloodline, Orcs have fangs, tusks, deformed pointed ears, sharp noses, pig-like noses, or a combination. Most are also horribly deformed from battle scars (like missing eyes, noses squashed inwards, missing fingers). Most have skin color within the human range, but some can have skin as dark as the Drow, or as pallid as the little green men.

As such, Half-Orcs rarely look very attractive by Human standards. I feel they play an important role in the core races; the race that, while "ugly," can achieve anything that more "civilized" and "good looking" folks can.

You obviously feel different, but we are all allowed different opinions. :smallsmile:

[IthroZada]

An interesting bit I read recently is that orcs themselves are quite variable in their looks because they breed with absolutely everything. So, half orcs are going to be quite variable themselves, and possibly part troll, goblin, and ogre as well. While that might sound a like mongrelfolk, I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of the heritage is orc, which overrides just being a misshapen mess. So the ugly baboon things in the DMG could be part Losel (an orc baboon hybrid that actually exists), the pig things are god knows what, and half orcs will run the gamut from gorillas to Na'vi without tails.

[Parasyn]

I'm not exactly sure what race she is but benn'joon from LFG is one fine greenskin http://archive.lfgcomic.com/lfg0042.gif

[Ravens_cry]

I'm not exactly sure what race she is but benn'joon from LFG is one fine greenskin http://archive.lfgcomic.com/lfg0042.gif
I always found her waist and hips rather disturbing. Also, what in the Nine Hells is keeping that, well whatever that thing painted on her chest is, UP?
Adhesive?
Ouch.:smalleek:

[Sarco_Phage]

I always found her waist and hips rather disturbing. Also, what in the Nine Hells is keeping that, well whatever that thing painted on her chest is, UP?
Adhesive?
Ouch.:smalleek:

That's electric tape, actually.

[John Campbell]

Half-orcs not ugly. Humans ugly. Small, scrawny, weak jaw with no good tooths, just grass-eating tooths like horse, skin like filth-grubbing worm, head all bulgy and tall, weird down-pointy nose so only able to smell own breath, squeaky voice like little girl, break easy in sack...

Like elves, almost. Feh.

(I need to make a new avatar for my current half-orc barbarian PC. This post isn't quite right next to the dwarven runesmith. Though he thought humans were funny-looking, too.)

[Sarco_Phage]

:thog: thog not understand why half-orc need to be pretty. thog think pretty girls are icky.

[Juggling Goth]

Why does every race have to be pretty? Personally, I rather like half-orcs (and orcs) looking inhuman, not 'people with green skin and fangs'.

When they're represented by females? Same reason the daft women aren't covering their chests very well. To quote the Plaid Adder, "Maybe she's trying to distract her adversary, but if that fails, I can't see her coming back from battle except in a bucket."

[Ravens_cry]

That's electric tape, actually.
:smalleek:
:eek:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1023/eeky.gif
***
Ouch.

[Sacrieur]

When they're represented by females? Same reason the daft women aren't covering their chests very well. To quote the Plaid Adder, "Maybe she's trying to distract her adversary, but if that fails, I can't see her coming back from battle except in a bucket."

Bouncing and bouncing... :wink:

[Abemad]

This half-orc is kind of cute :)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3197/barbarianchickbytiger13z.jpg

[Kyberwulf]

Shes HOT

is that wrong?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Shes HOT

is that wrong?

It's not wrong, 'cause it's true.

[Ravens_cry]

That's a half-orc? No it's not, it's a painting of an overeager LARPer with green body paint and tusks, there is barely anything that says "My daddy (or mommy) was an Orc."
This is half orc. (along with a few other races)
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5769/raceshalf.jpg
No, she isn't typically pretty, but she could wreck you up just as good as Miss LARP, if not better. She is not human, she is not orc, she is a half orc, strong and confident in who she is and does not need your approval.

[Etrivar]

Half-orcs not ugly. Humans ugly. Small, scrawny, weak jaw with no good tooths, just grass-eating tooths like horse, skin like filth-grubbing worm, head all bulgy and tall, weird down-pointy nose so only able to smell own breath, squeaky voice like little girl, break easy in sack...

Like elves, almost. Feh.

This guy here has the right of it. Everyone is trying to judge beauty by human standards, as though beauty were objective. Beauty is far from objective, even within our own species, let alone in an entirely different one. I bet those pig noses look pretty sexy to an orc male.

[Sacrieur]

This guy here has the right of it. Everyone is trying to judge beauty by human standards, as though beauty were objective. Beauty is far from objective, even within our own species, let alone in an entirely different one. I bet those pig noses look pretty sexy to an orc male.

Human standards are the only standards :<

/human troll

---

Beauty in the eye of the beholder, then would someone like to explain to me how half-orcs come to exist if actual orcs are terribly disgusting? While I wouldn't debate there to be /some/ half-orcs, they certainly would not make for a common species.

[Sarco_Phage]

Human standards are the only standards :<

/human troll

---

Beauty in the eye of the beholder, then would someone like to explain to me how half-orcs come to exist if actual orcs are terribly disgusting? While I wouldn't debate there to be /some/ half-orcs, they certainly would not make for a common species.

The standard fluff involves rape. Lots of it. How do you not know that?

[Ravens_cry]

The standard fluff involves rape. Lots of it. How do you not know that?
I prefer this (http://www.elfwood.com/~jedediah/Half-Orc-Family.2843716.html) explanation.
Love conquers all.

[Cog]

I prefer this (http://www.elfwood.com/~jedediah/Half-Orc-Family.2843716.html) explanation.
Love conquers all.
Pff. Even the orcs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) don't want to think about that possibility.

[Sacrieur]

The standard fluff involves rape. Lots of it. How do you not know that?

Heh, must of left that part out the PHB. I should check the naughty book.

[Ravens_cry]

Pff. Even the orcs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) don't want to think about that possibility.
Apparently at least one did, or she wouldn't have had that backstory.
Also, we have no way of knowing the chief was referring to that or the more common, none-consensual as the orc chief obviously couldn't see her flash back.

[Mordokai]

Because beauty is reserved for the other half breed.

[alchemyprime]

I hate that stereotype, it makes me want to stab people. At the same time have you seen the elf in the Player's Handbook? *shudders*

It's completely unfair to view an 8 Cha as brusque, rude, and ugly. Pick one of the three and I think that's a good representation of 8 Cha. It's like saying people with 8 Int can't remember things, learn things, and enjoy intellectual pursuits. It could certainly be that your character can't remember things well, but learns them fine, or can't learn things well, but can remember things. And there's nothing wrong with a 8 Int half-orc who likes puzzles.

Motto.

I once played a rather good looking Jedi with 4 Charisma. My DM only allowed it because he knew I would accentuate something else.

I made the most annoying man in the world.

He ordered a canned drink at a Cantina and after drinking it proceeded to gnaw on the can (which I did with my Dr. Pepper for effect). He told inappropriate jokes to a senator (the kind that get you permabanned on these forums) followed with "And the best part? That wasn't a joke, a bounty hunter told me that's what your daughter is doing in the facilities right now."

(The Senator's bar was above a common Cantina. Our Coruscant was much more like Las Vegas. So my Jedi and the senator were essentially in a 1960s Playboy Club filled with Twi'leks and the rest of the party and the daughter were at a night club.)
UNSTUNSTUNSTUNSTUNST
Fun game, and people knew darn well what my character's charisma was although he looked like the Classic Brawny Man as a Jedi.

[The Cat Goddess]

Re: Forgotten Realms races picture...

I've always thought the FR halfling illustrations looked way too skinny... like 1/4 scale elves. :smallyuk:


I always found orcs to look ludicrously hideous, rather than just downright scary. This is what I think more or less should be along the lines of what a proper orc should look like:

http://www.totalwallpapers.com/fantasy/wallpapers/dark-warrior.jpg

Scary.

Looks more like a Teifling to me...


You should see how sharp Samurai blades are kept.

Compare to the average Scottish claymore, Roman gladius or Frankish longsword.

Then compare to the average blade that 99.5% of the fighting men of Japan used. A Quality Katana was rare (easily equivalent of Masterwork), while a "leaf cutting blade" (a sword that could cut a leaf in half as it was falling to the ground) would be a one-in-a-million.

[Sacrieur]

Re: Forgotten Realms races picture...

I've always thought the FR halfling illustrations looked way too skinny... like 1/4 scale elves. :smallyuk:



Looks more like a Teifling to me...



Compare to the average Scottish claymore, Roman gladius or Frankish longsword.

Then compare to the average blade that 99.5% of the fighting men of Japan used. A Quality Katana was rare (easily equivalent of Masterwork), while a "leaf cutting blade" (a sword that could cut a leaf in half as it was falling to the ground) would be a one-in-a-million.

As you probably all ready know, PCs are rife with one-in-a-million things, are always equipped with masterwork weaponry, have obscure or powerful bloodlines, and each and everyone is absolutely special. And I don't mean in the fifth grade everyone is a winner way.

[some guy]

This would suggest otherwise:

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html

Off-topic, but that secutor on the relief looks like an astronaut and the thought of gladiators fighting astronauts is awesome.

[Etrivar]

Beauty in the eye of the beholder, then would someone like to explain to me how half-orcs come to exist if actual orcs are terribly disgusting? While I wouldn't debate there to be /some/ half-orcs, they certainly would not make for a common species.

Because, as I said, beauty is not objective, even within our own species! it is entirely possible that a human could find an orc attractive because there is no accounting for taste.

Also, anyone who bases their love on nothing but the appearance of their partner, has all the depth of a puddle.

[Sacrieur]

Because, as I said, beauty is not objective, even within our own species! it is entirely possible that a human could find an orc attractive because there is no accounting for taste.

Also, anyone who bases their love on nothing but the appearance of their partner, has all the depth of a puddle.

Biology (http://www.livescience.com/7023-rules-attraction-game-love.html) tends to disagree. Not saying there wouldn't be someone attracted to an orc, I'm just saying those numbers would be extremely low.

[Sarco_Phage]

As you probably all ready know, PCs are rife with one-in-a-million things, are always equipped with masterwork weaponry, have obscure or powerful bloodlines, and each and everyone is absolutely special. And I don't mean in the fifth grade everyone is a winner way.

So?

Orcs aren't constantly fighting speshul snowflake PCs, you know. They're raiding regular villages and farms. They're fighting town watchmen with POS blades and spears with the heads barely on. They're fighting ranger apprentices who don't have access to decent gear.

The fat would obviously help against these opponents.

[Amnestic]

Because beauty is reserved for the other half breed.

Half-Ogre? Half-Giant? Half-Minotaur? Half-Fiend? Half-Celestial? Half-Dragon? :smalltongue:


Looks more like a Teifling to me...

Looks like the love child of Lord Orochi (http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9451/30996369.jpg) and Illidan Stormrage (http://www.uniquedc.com/file/wallpaper/Illidan%20Stormrage.jpg).

[Mordokai]

Half-Ogre? Half-Giant? Half-Minotaur? Half-Fiend? Half-Celestial? Half-Dragon? :smalltongue:

Lemme reiterate myself, for those rare few smartypants out there :smalltongue:

The other half breed in PHB.

[Sarco_Phage]

Lemme reiterate myself, for those rare few smartypants out there :smalltongue:

The other half breed in PHB.

Ahhh! The Human/Ling crossbreed, the Half-Ling?

[hamishspence]

Heh, must of left that part out the PHB.

From the PHB:

"In the wild frontiers, tribes of humans and orc barbarians live in uneasy balance, fighting in time of war and trading in time of peace. Half-orcs who are born in the frontier may live with either human or orc parents, but they are nevertheless exposed to both cultures. Some, for whatever reason, leave their homeland and travel to civilized lands, bringing with them the tenacity, courage, and combat prowess that they developed in the wilds."

That's all it has to say about half-orc origins.

[Sarco_Phage]

From the PHB:

"In the wild frontiers, tribes of humans and orc barbarians live in uneasy balance, fighting in time of war and trading in time of peace. Half-orcs who are born in the frontier may live with either human or orc parents, but they are nevertheless exposed to both cultures. Some, for whatever reason, leave their homeland and travel to civilized lands, bringing with them the tenacity, courage, and combat prowess that they developed in the wilds."

That's all it has to say about half-orc origins.

You know, I find it odd that "half-orcs are born from rape" is so ingrained in their origins... and yet it's not actually in the PHB. I mean, there's a rumor that the reason the half-orc was dropped in the intial 4E run is because they were squeamish about their origin. Yet it appears it wasn't canon. Hell, I thought it was canon.

[Etrivar]

Biology (http://www.livescience.com/7023-rules-attraction-game-love.html) tends to disagree. Not saying there wouldn't be someone attracted to an orc, I'm just saying those numbers would be extremely low.

Oh, the numbers would certainly be low, just as compared to the number of full humans and full orcs, the number of half orcs is low.

[Cog]

Ahhh! The Human/Ling crossbreed, the Half-Ling?
So long as it isn't a half-li-lung half-ling.

[IthroZada]

I don't own the book, so I have no way of checking, but I think the "implied" rape origins of half-orcs is straight from 1st ed. A lot of people certainly don't like that origin, and they don't think wartime rape would even likely result in a sufficient populace of half-breeds, but when it comes to that, I just figure the orcs are like the early Romans, in raping for the express reason to increase population. As much as they believe only the strongest should live, they have a pretty high mortality rate, and they need warm bodies to fill in the horde.

[hamishspence]

In one of the first Forgotten Realms novels (Black Wizards by Douglas Niles) the half-orc assassin opposing the heroes, is explicitly stated to have a mother who is a full-blooded orc.

[Frozen_Feet]

:smalleek:
:eek:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1023/eeky.gif
***
Ouch.

Eh, electric tape doesn't actually stick to skin all that tightly. It comes off rather painlessly after a while. In my experience, it doesn't stick to any surface particularly well, so my question would be how she manages to lead an active lifestyle without constant wardrobe failures?


This guy here has the right of it. Everyone is trying to judge beauty by human standards, as though beauty were objective. Beauty is far from objective, even within our own species, let alone in an entirely different one. I bet those pig noses look pretty sexy to an orc male.
Within D&D system, beauty is objective, and it also uses humans as baseline comparison, so I'd say the practice is justified.

However, I still feel need to stress that beauty isn't solely about sexual attraction, and sexual attraction is not solely about beauty. It might be orcs generally consider humans more beautiful than those of their own species, yet lust for them only on fringe occasions.

In my version, I already gave one example: humans, being less muscled overall, might look childish to orcs. So an orc might think of a human as a "pwetty kid", emphasis on kid. As such, they wouldn't consider humans as viable mates.

The standard fluff involves rape. Lots of it. How do you not know that?
Personally, I've always hated that interpretation. A human man raping an orc woman seems unlikely, because I don't think human men would even recognize orc women as women on a glance, and, you know, on average orc women are stronger and more aggressive than human men. Orc men raping human women doesn't feel any better, because I think orcs would register them as prey first and foremost. Prey, as in, something to eat. (Considering that, even if rape was involved somewhere, the chances for half-orcs would be pretty much nill.)

In my mind, the most common origin for half-orcs would be relatively consensual affair between orc male and human female. As I explained earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10763125&postcount=89), I think orcs as a highly masculine species. Even an average orc is quite big and strong by human standards.

So the story begins: Orc boy can get no orc booty, because his bigger and badder fellows wooed all the ladies and kicked him out of the party. Frustrated, he wanders to a human settlement, where he finds out that while he might not be much of an orc, he's still big and bad compared to puny human men. So he makes a show of himself, and suddenly finds himself surrounded by human girlies.

One thing leads to another, alll is fine... wait, why is she screaming that he's hurting her? He was just trying to shake her a little, in a way orc ladies so appreciate! And... woah, why are there suddenly so many human men with pitchforks outside the house? Uh huh.

So, the poor boy has to flee for his life, wondering what just happened, while the human girl is left unwittingly carrying his child.

Alternatively, the relationship goes on a bit longer, maybe they even get married... but one day, the girl wakes up and smells the flowers, realizes her boyfriend is maneating wild beast, and either stabs him in his sleep or kicks him out before he hurts the children.

Nonetheless, cue poor and frustrated orc returning to be bullied by his comrades, never to see his kid again.

[Morph Bark]

4e in general has better artwork, half-orcs are no exception.

Here's the 4e half-orcs. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090323081112/forgottenrealms/images/3/35/4e_half-orcs.jpg

I have to say that the female there looks prettymuch like an elf with small tusks.

[Ravens_cry]

I have to say that the female there looks prettymuch like an elf with small tusks.
I would say a rugged human with pointy ears and small tusks, but yeah, not much that really says "That's a half orc." I like how the 4E Eladrin wizard looks, even though he has severally hampered peripheral vision. He looks suitably alien and fey, in my view.

[Solaris]

Biology (http://www.livescience.com/7023-rules-attraction-game-love.html) tends to disagree. Not saying there wouldn't be someone attracted to an orc, I'm just saying those numbers would be extremely low.

As are the numbers of half-orcs in most settings I've encountered, Eberron being the exception.

[Afterwalker]

Why does every race have to be pretty? Personally, I rather like half-orcs (and orcs) looking inhuman, not 'people with green skin and fangs'.

I's entirely possible for something to not look human at all and to still be considered beautiful. Take birds, for example.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I actually played a (imo) ruggedly good-looking half orc druid who ended up romancing a human lady (and perhaps if the campaign had continued I'd have played his 1/3 orc offspring!). So yeah I feel you op, attractive orcs and orcy things are great. But scary monstrous orcs are good too. Just in general I'm pretty pro-orc, is what I'm saying, and I think if the human race can run the gamut from gorgeous to terrifying to butt ugly the same should go for orcs.

In general I'm not huge on trying to make dwarves, elves or orcs "less human," so they feel "more alien." I tend to draw my orcs as a combination of man, boar and bat but trending more towards "attractive green beast man" than anything else. Still when I want them to look intimidating I can just pull their lips back and really emphasize the tusks and it does the job, imo.

[The Oni]

One of my fellow PF players played her Half-Orc's origin story the exact reverse of standard - an evil human scientist/alchemist forcibly captured and impregnated an Orc warrior lady in an attempt to start a brood of super-soldiers. This plan went very poorly once her friends noticed she was missing; as it happens, an Orc warrior lady's friends tend to be other Orc warrior ladies and I'm pretty sure he ended up with his head on a long stick.

Her character was actually frequently described as attractive (for a Half-Orc). Which is to say, sure...from a distance...in the right light...and the "right" light is the sort you'd need low-light vision for...

My own campaign setting has a few legit, long-term Orc-human relationships, but this has a lot to do with a weird alien god taking it upon himself to redeem the Orcish race through martial service against evil, so Orcs aren't universally reviled in the setting.

[DeltaEmil]

I have to say that the female there looks prettymuch like an elf with small tusks.If one goes towards Tolkien's work where orcs were rumored to be corrupted elves (but never proven), it might make sense that orcish beings ought to have some similarities with elves. Half-orcs, being not too orcish, would look more elvish, in that case.

I could imagine some men being willing to have snusnu with orc women from the 4th edition Monster Vault.
http://s22.postimg.org/h2z0lowa9/D_D_4e_Monster_Vault_Orcs.png