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jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:04 AM
The Fighter, Remixed


When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.
-- Robert E. Howard, The Road of Kings

What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?
I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- Robert E. Howard


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/conan_killer_gremlins.jpg


There was a time in decades past when the fighter was the king of classes, the Big Damn Hero who courageously led his party to triumph over danger again and again. In earlier editions, the fighter was the linchpin of a party, the one with the brawn, grit, and determination to slug it out against all odds, to inspire his followers, and to do battle as no other class could. Let us return to those days, and build a fighter worthy of the name!

The remixed fighter is an open, flexible class, built to fulfill the archetype of the mundane hero who overcomes challenges through grit, courage, and sheer martial prowess. A remixed fighter might be a fierce nomadic plainsman raised in a harsh, wild land, a masterless samurai seeking to earn his next meal through his skill with the blade, a knight in shining armor, a pitiless warlord amassing a horde of raiders, an elite bodyguard loyally protecting his charge, an uncultured thug making a living through robbery and murder, or a famous gladiator beloved as a hero of the people. Or he might be any of a dozen other heroes from cinema and fantasy - the remixed fighter is the class of choice for players who seek to confront evil with martial prowess and match their blade and determination against the spells and steel of their foes. The remixed fighter and its ACFs collectively replace the barbarian, fighter, marshal, and samurai classes.

Credits:
All of you. Really. The 3.5 fighter is a very narrowly envisioned class, and to find the tools to broaden its scope and options I read through dozens of fighter fixes, homebrew feats, fighter vs. wizard/monk/whatever discussions, and anything else I could find. If you've ever posted anything to Homebrew with the word "fighter" in it (or "war-marked", Jake), chances are I've read your stuff and taken what I could to build this class. You'll probably recognize a few things of yours in my fighter remix.

Design Notes:
Design goals:
Authentic. The class remains true to the feat-centric view of the 3.5 fighter. It also includes design elements, such as fighter kits, exceptional strength and the ability to make a full attack on the move, that draw from 1st and 2nd edition D&D. This is the fighter you know, but it also draws inspiration from the old-school fighter of earlier editions.
Flexible. With more skill points, more options both in and out of combat, some difficult decisions, and plenty of room to change your mind and move in a different direction, the remixed fighter brings versatility to the table.
Multi-Role. Different fighting styles encourage radically different types of fighters, and an expanded Martial Aptitude allows a fighter to shift his focus from day-to-day (or even round-to-round with the right choices). Unlike dedicated "defender", "striker", or "lurker" classes, the remixed fighter can easily adapt his focus to address different challenges - although not without a little forethought and planning.
Broad Support. In the posts below this one, and in linked threads, you'll find of dozens of feats intended to support the remixed fighter. Many are straight rips of existing class features and ACFs, but many are new. A particular attempt has been made to create feats suitable for higher-level play, since fighters typically have few feat options at that level of play.
Ease of Conversion. Should you be inclined to do so, it should be easy to convert your existing barbarian, fighter, marshal, or samurai to a remixed fighter.

Version Log:
1.0 Original version.
1.01 Corrected several typos throughout the text.
1.02 Improved Weather the Storm to work against all energy types.
1.1 Revised the options offered by the disciplined fighting style.
1.11 Nerfed the mounted speed multipliers granted by the cavalry fighting style.
1.12 More cleaning of typos. Rephrased a few sentences for clearer meaning.
1.13 Expanded the advice in the "Playing a Remixed Fighter" section.
1.14 Renamed "thuggish" fighting style to "cunning". Compulsively resorted everything to restore alphabetical order. Cunning fighter now gains +1d6 sneak attack with Fighting Style I.
1.2 Reduced the scaling of the key skill bonus (now maxes at +10 instead of +20) and eliminated the "free 20" option at 17th level.
1.3 Eliminated the choice of fighting styles from the core class, instead presenting the weapon master fighter as the "archetypal" fighter. Other fighting styles are now presented as alternate class features.
1.4 A fighting style now lets you select two key skills from a list of several options, rather than providing four fixed key skills.
1.5 Eliminated the Second Style and Third Style class features. This functionality will be rolled into the kit feats.
1.6 Changed key skill options for the Weapon Master Fighting Style to Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Jump, or Spot. These are the discipline skills for the martial disciplines available to a warblade, except for Spot, which is the discipline for the various archery-themed homebrew martial disciplines on this forum. This should enable the fighter to get better use from the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats, if he chooses to take them. Additionally, added Intimidate as an additional key skill option for the Disciplined Fighting Style, since its Staredown and Mass Staredown features are Intimidate-based.
1.61 Slightly re-organized the columns in the class table and added an entry in the writeup for the fighter bonus feats.
1.7 Condensed the Hardy Soldiers and Weather the Storm combat auras into one aura that provides both damage reduction and resistance to all energy types.
1.71 Revamped several features for the cavalry fighter ACF.
1.72 Updated tables for new forum code. Minor changes to layout. Updated and improved the Red Tides of War tactical feat for watchful fighters.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Fighters have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Strength is especially important for fighters because it improves their melee attack and damage rolls. Constitution is important for giving fighters lots of hit points, which they need in their many battles. Dexterity is important for fighters who want to be good archers.

HIT DIE: d12



LevelBase AttackFortRefWillSpecialFighter Feats
Combat Auras


1st+1+2+0+2Martial aptitude, weapon master fighting styleBonus feat
0


2nd+2+3+0+3Fighting style IIBonus feat
0


3rd+3+3+1+3Combat aura +1, exceptional strength
1


4th+4+4+1+4Bonus feat
1


5th+5+4+1+4Combat aura +2, fighting style III
1


6th+6/+1+5+2+5Bonus feat
2


7th+7/+2+5+2+5Mobile combatant
2


8th+8/+3+6+2+6Bonus feat
2


9th+9/+4+6+3+6Fighting style IV
2


10th+10/+5+7+3+7Combat aura +3Bonus feat
3


11th+11/+6/+1+7+3+7True grit
3


12th+12/+7/+2+8+4+8Bonus feat
3


13th+13/+8/+3+8+4+8Fighting style V
3


14th+14/+9/+4+9+4+9Bonus feat
4


15th+15/+10/+5+9+5+9Combat aura +4, countering strike
4


16th+16/+11/+6/+1+10+5+10Bonus feat
4


17th+17/+12/+7/+2+10+5+10Fighting style VI
4


18th+18/+13/+8/+3+11+6+11Bonus feat
5


19th+19/+14/+9/+4+11+6+11Peerless reactions
5


20th+20/+15/+10/+5+12+6+12Combat aura +5Bonus feat
5


CLASS SKILLS (4 + Int mod per level, x4 at 1st level)
A fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Martial Lore (Int), Perform (weapon drill) (Cha), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str). A fighter gains additional class skills from the weapon master fighting style (see below).


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/Age_of_Conan_Movie.jpg

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light, medium, and heavy armor, and with shields (but not tower shields). As part of his fighting style, a fighter gains proficiency with one exotic weapon, armor, or shield (such as a tower shield).

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, and every even-numbered fighter level thereafter, you gain a bonus feat, which can be any fighter feat for which you qualify.

Martial Aptitude (Ex): Once per day, you may spend one hour drilling with your weapons to retrain your fighter bonus feats (this does not include feats gained from your fighting style). You may change any or all of your fighter bonus feats, but you must comply with the retraining rules as normal. If you choose feats that apply to a specific piece of equipment (such as Weapon Focus), you must have that equipment available to practice with during your drill. All of your choices must remain legal, and you may not make choices that render you ineligible for any feat you aren’t retraining, or any prestige class you have. You may not use Martial Aptitude to retrain any of your other feats, such as racial feats, feats acquired from a class feature (such as Fighting Style), feats acquired as bonus feats from another class, or the feats gained by all characters at 1st level and every 3rd character level.

Weapon Master Fighting Style (Ex): A fighter is, first and foremost, a peerless student of the weapon master fighting style. A practitioner of the weapon master fighting style might be a stunt gladiator, a exotic weapon specialist, or a soldier who practices endlessly to perfect his technique. Your fighting style establishes a distinctive method of attack for you, and sets you apart from practitioners of other styles.

Your style grants you proficiency with a single exotic weapon, armor, or shield of your choice. You also gain Weapon Focus (with a weapon of your choice) as a bonus feat. Additionally, select any two of the following skills: Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Jump, or Spot. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. They permanently become fighter class skills for you, and your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level.


Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You also add your fighting style bonus to any roll made to resist disarm or sunder attempts, and to the DC of any attempts to demoralize you with the Intimidate skill.

At 5th level, you gain your choice of any Peerless feat or Weapon Specialization (with a weapon of your choice) as a bonus feat.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You gain your choice of Improved Critical, Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery (with a weapon of your choice).

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the rogue ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. You gain your choice of Crushing Strike, Driving Attack, or Slashing Flurry.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. You gain Weapon Supremacy as a bonus feat (with a weapon of your choice).

Combat Aura (Ex): At 3rd level, you learn to project an aura that grants you and nearby allies a special benefit. You learn to project several auras that offer different benefits, but you may project only one combat aura at a time. At first you know only a single combat aura, but as your fighter level increases, you learn new ones, as shown on Table: The Fighter.


Projecting a combat aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until you use a swift action to dismiss it or until you activate a different combat aura. Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. You size up enemies, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best.

Unless otherwise noted, your combat aura affects all allies (including yourself) within 60 feet who can hear you. Affected allies must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand your language. Your aura is dismissed if you are dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard and understood by your allies.

A combat aura lets allies add +1 to certain rolls. This bonus improves by +1 at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. All bonuses granted by combat auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other. Combat aura does not stack with the benefits of the Commanding Aura feat or the Aid Another action.

Follow My Lead: Bonus on skills checks with your key skills (see the Fighting Style class feature for details).
Hardy Soldiers: Your allies gain damage reduction (or an improvement to their existing damage reduction) and energy resistance equal to the amount of bonus the aura provides. For example, if you are 10th level, everyone affected gains DR 3/- and resist energy 3 vs. acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic.
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.
Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
Motivate Urgency: Allies’ base land speed is increased by 5 x your combat aura bonus. For example, if you are 10th level, everyone affected adds 15 feet to their base land speed.
Resilient Troops: Bonus to all saves.
Steady Hand: Bonus on ranged attack rolls.

Exceptional Strength (Ex): At 3rd level, your intense combat training teaches you how to apply your strength more effectively. Increase your Strength bonus by 50% when dealing damage with a melee or ranged attack, or when making a Strength check, a grapple check, or a Strength-based skill check. Thus, you deal your full Strength bonus to damage with off-hand weapons, 1 1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage with weapons held in your primary hand, and 2x your Strength bonus to damage with two-handed weapons or one-handed weapons wielded with two hands.


This bonus applies equally to melee, thrown, and ranged weapons, unarmed strikes, and natural attacks (if you have any), but cannot be used in conjunction with abilities that allow you to apply a different ability bonus to damage instead of Strength (such as the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle).

Design Notes:
Exceptional Strength was a key advantage of the 2e fighter, and now it's back. Because the bonus applies twice to two-weapon fighting, it makes TWF slightly more advantageous than previously. Sword-and-board also becomes a more viable tactic, because the fighter's damage output remains more credible. It also provides a modest but helpful edge when grappling the bigger creatures found at higher levels and when performing feats of raw athleticism, such as jumping onto the backs of the aforementioned beasts.

Exceptional Strength, along with other features like Martial Aptitude, Mobile Combatant, and Countering Strike, also serves to establish the fighter's "edge" - the superior martial prowess he brings to the group that compensates for his lack of spells or martial maneuvers.

Mobile Combatant (Ex): In combat, speed is life, and a skilled fighter embraces this truth, learning to deliver strikes swiftly and precisely even while on the move. Beginning at 7th level, you can make a full-round attack as a standard action.

Design Notes:
In earlier editions of the game, the fighter was renowned for his ability to deliver a ton of attacks while on the move. Now he does so again.

True Grit (Ex): By 11th level, you have become hardened against the horror and din of battle and the debilitating effects of spells. When initially affected by one of the conditions listed below, you may mitigate or negate the condition for the full duration of its effect. Using True Grit takes no action, and can be done at any time, even when it isn't your turn. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Constitution modifier.



ConditionReduce to:
Ability DrainedAbility Damaged
BlindedDazzled
ConfusedFascinated
CoweringDazed
DazzledUnaffected
ExhaustedFatigued
FascinatedUnaffected
FatiguedUnaffected
FrightenedShaken
NauseatedSickened
PanickedFrightened
ParalyzedStunned
ShakenUnaffected
SickenedUnaffected
[tr]Stunned[td]Dazed

You cannot use True Grit more than once against a single source (for example, if you're exhausted by a ray of exhaustion, you can use True Grit to downgrade the exhaustion to fatigue, but you can't then expend a second use to negate the fatigue). If you use True Grit to mitigate or negate a condition which you must suffer as a sacrifice or cost when gaining some benefit, you automatically forfeit the benefit you would have gained.

Design Notes:
While many classes have abilities designed to avoid harm, it is much more the fighter's idiom to withstand it. True Grit allows a fighter to shake off a minor disabling condition, or downgrade some truly disabling conditions to mere hindrances.

Countering Strike (Ex): Beginning at 15th level, you learn to take advantage of even the smallest of openings in combat to deliver a quick attack. As an immediate action, you can either make a single attack, or attempt a combat maneuver that you could normally use in place of an attack, such as an attempt to disarm, grapple, sunder, or trip. If you damage a foe that is in the midst of an act that requires concentration (such as casting a spell or drinking a potion), your target must succeed at a Concentration check as normal or his action is disrupted.

Peerless Reactions (Ex): Upon reaching 19th level, you have a mental focus greater than any opponent, allowing you to react much faster than others. You may take a second swift or immediate action each round.


Playing a Remixed Fighter

As a fighter, you have three general categories of abilities: iconic powers provided by your fighting style, fighter bonus feats, and supplemental features that enhance your combat prowess. It's important to understand what each of these groups of abilities can offer you when you're building your fighter.

FIGHTING STYLE
Your fighting style bonus feats establish you as a master of specific weapons or combat techniques. Think about the type of weapons and gear you want to use most often, and use the bonus feats granted by your style to become especially skillful with them. Your fighting style also grants you a set of key skills - as you level up, you'll gain hefty bonuses and extra perks when using these skills.

FIGHTER BONUS FEATS
With Martial Aptitude, your fighter bonus feats are now a flexible, modular set of options. This means that you're free to pick special-purpose feats or feats with little application beyond the currently expected set of encounters, because you can always select different ones later when your current set is no longer useful.

If a particular feat is likely to be the cornerstone of your build, try to avoid selecting it with a fighter bonus feat; Martial Aptitude is less useful if half of your fighter bonus feats are set in stone because you need them for a prestige class, for example. Instead, use one of the feat slots that all characters receive at every three levels to take that feat.

To speed up game-play, keep lists of standard feat choices and option sets that you like. For example, if your character is equipped with both a spiked chain and a longbow, you might notate Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot as your "archery tree" and Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip as your "chain-tripper tree". Keeping these notes can streamline the process of choosing your feats, which ensures that other players aren't sitting around waiting for you to pick your feats every time the party rests.

Since you have so many feats to choose from, you might want to write the name, prerequisites, effects, and page reference of your commonly used feats on index cards. With these "feat cards", you won't need to slow down combat by paging through sourcebooks to find out how a feat works, and if your DM has a question about a particular feat, you can immediately provide the sourcebook and page number where the feat is found, or just pass the card over for the DM to read.

Change of Tactics (described in the second post of this thread) greatly increases the flexibility of your fighter bonus feats. If you aren't exactly sure what you'll face on a given day, take Change of Tactics as one of your bonus feats to ensure that you can adjust your tricks "on the fly" if you need to.

SUPPLEMENTAL FEATURES
Your supplemental features, which include Martial Aptitude, Combat Aura, Exceptional Strength, Mobile Combatant, True Grit, Countering Strike, and Peerless Reactions, don't involve many decisions, but you should be aware of what they can do for you as you assign your feats and skills. Let's briefly look at each one.

Martial Aptitude is a huge game-changer for the remixed fighter, re-envisioning your fighter bonus feats as being a set of "tricks" or flashy moves that you can swap out with a little practice, rather than being laboriously learned techniques that required tremendous effort to perfect. Review the retraining rules (PH2 192) to ensure that you understand which choices are legal for you and which ones aren't. Keep a careful record of the choices you've made so the DM knows you're playing honestly.

Combat Aura represents your ability to motivate and lead allies. You only learn a few combat auras, so think about the tactics that you and your teammates are likely to prefer, and choose auras that support them. In combat, talk with other players and get a feel for what actions they'd like to perform next, then choose an aura that suits everyone's game plan - it does little good, for example, if you Motivate Urgency when no one is planning to move!

Exceptional Strength doesn't force many decisions. Just be aware that your Strength score does more for you than for most, and that effects that boost it, like bull's strength or gauntlets of ogre power, are more beneficial for you than for other characters. Exceptional Strength, when combined with your fighting style feats, can make two-weapon fighting or sword-and-board fighting more viable than you've come to expect, so if you want to play a character who fights with those tools, boost your Strength and go for it!

Mobile Combatant is also a pretty simple option. Just keep in mind as you choose your feats and tactics that you can expect to move around the battlefield a lot without losing your combat effectiveness.

True Grit is great when used in combination with features that offer useful benefits but have some kind of debilitating side effect, such as rage or defensive stance. You can't use it effectively if the status effect is an activation cost, however. True Grit is useful outside of combat too; you can use it to resist the fatigue that arises from sleeping in heavy armor, for example, or from heat stroke.

Countering Strike can be used offensively to deliver a little extra damage to your opponents, but it's probably most useful when used defensively; you can strike as an immediate action to ruin a spellcaster's concentration, to disarm an opponent who's about to attack you, or to trip someone who's about to move. When considering your feat options, keep an eye out for feats that improve what you can do with an attack action - you can use Countering Strike to make these feats even more effective.

Peerless Reactions makes certain choices MUCH more powerful for you than they were previously. Keep an eye out for ways to gain abilities that can be activated as a swift or immediate action, since you can now use those abilities twice as often.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:12 AM
New feats to support the remixed fighter:

[FIGHTER] FEATS
These feats were formerly fighter ACFs. As [Fighter] feats, you can now fit them into your build anywhere, rather than having to sacrifice a feat slot at a particular level to obtain them. With the flexibility offered by Martial Aptitude, you can pick them up whenever you encounter situations where they might be useful, then exchange them later when another feat is more appropriate.
COUNTERATTACK [Fighter, Style]
Every offensive move creates an opening for a counterattack, and you know how to exploit this facet of combat to its fullest.
Prerequisite: Fighter level 12th or fighter level 8th and Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: You learn to hold back some of your offensive prowess to enable a potent counterattack. As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus and assume a watchful position until the beginning of your next turn. While you are in a watchful position, any opponent who targets you with a melee attack against you provokes an attack of opportunity from you before doing so. As soon as you take an attack of opportunity, your watchful position ends.
Advancement: If you have Dual Strike, you can use your standard action to make a melee attack with your primary weapon and an attack with your off-hand weapon. You take the normal penalties for attacking with two weapons, and gain the normal bonus from Counterattack.

DUNGEON CRASHER [Fighter]
You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies.
Prerequisite: Fighter level 2nd
Benefit: You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and a +2 competence bonus to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.
In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

DUNGEON CRASHER, GREATER [Fighter]
Your skill at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies increases to super-heroic levels.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 14th or greater, Dungeon Crasher, Improved Dungeon Crasher
Benefit: Your bonuses when dealing with traps increase to +8, and the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases to +20. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 16d6 points + four times your Strength bonus (if any).

DUNGEON CRASHER, IMPROVED [Fighter]
Your skill at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies increases to heroic levels.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 6th or greater, Dungeon Crasher
Benefit: Your bonuses when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus (if any).

ELUSIVE ATTACK [Fighter]
You know that the key to winning any fight is not getting hit, so you trade offensive power for a steadier defense.
Prerequisite: Fighter level 6th
Benefit: You master a technique of combining offense and defense. As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus and assume an elusive posture until the beginning of your next turn. While you are in an elusive posture, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC.
Advancement: If you have fighter level 11th, this bonus improves to +4.
If you have fighter level 16th, this bonus improves to +6.
If you have Dual Strike, you can use your standard action to make a melee attack with your primary weapon and an attack with your off-hand weapon. You take the normal penalties for attacking with two weapons, and gain the normal bonus from Elusive Attack.

OVERPOWERING ATTACK [Fighter]
You never waste time wounding your opponent, instead concentrating on delivering one solid strike.
Prerequisite: Fighter level 16th
Benefit: You can focus your attention in combat to deliver a single deadly attack. As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. This attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the beginning of your next turn.
Advancement: If you have Dual Strike, you can use your standard action to make a melee attack with your primary weapon and an attack with your off-hand weapon. You take the normal penalties for attacking with two weapons, and gain the normal bonus from Overpowering Attack.

[GENERAL] FEATS
These new feats are of use to almost any sort of fighter.
BURNING HEART [Fighter]
You can fight on long after sustaining harm that should have disabled you.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 11th or greater, True Grit class feature
Benefit: If you would be afflicted by a status effect as a result of failing a Fortitude save, you may expend one of your daily uses of True Grit to delay the effect for one minute. If you are afflicted with the same status effect again while already delaying an identical effect, you may not delay it a second time. For example, if you fail your Fortitude saving throw against a poison that would paralyze you, you may expend a use of True Grit to ignore the paralysis for one minute. If you are poisoned again on the next round and fail your saving throw again, you may not delay the second instance of the paralyzed condition, although you could still expend a use of True Grit as normal to reduce it to the stunned condition.
Advancement: If you have fighter level 15th or higher, you may choose to delay status effects that result from failing Reflex or Will saves as well. In some situations, this may allow you to avoid the status effect altogether (e.g. if you leave the area of a web spell before the one-minute period elapses).
If you have fighter level 17th or higher, you may choose to delay dying from a [Death] effect as well.

CHANGE OF TACTICS [Fighter]
Just when your opponent thinks he has taken the measure of your style and learned to anticipate you, you surprise him with unexpected tricks.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5 or greater, Martial Aptitude class feature
Benefit: Once per encounter as a swift action, you may retrain one of the bonus feats you could normally retrain with Martial Aptitude.
Once per day as a full-round action, you may retrain all of the bonus feats you could normally retrain with Martial Aptitude.

EXTRA AURA [General]
You know an additional aura.
Prerequisite: Fighter 3rd, Combat Aura
Benefit: You learn an additional combat aura.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you learn another combat aura.
Advancement: If you have the Commanding Aura feat, you can instead learn an additional commanding aura.

EXTRA KEY SKILL [General]
You have practiced the key skills of your fighting style extensively.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st
Benefit: You may select an additional key skill for your fighting style from the list of available skills.
Special: You may choose this feat more than once. Each time you do, you select an additional key skill from the list of available skills.

LINGERING AURA [Fighter]
The inspirational effects of your aura lingers on even if you are silenced, incapacitated or killed.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 3, Combat Aura
Benefit: If you are silenced, dazed, unconscious, stunned, killed, or otherwise unable to continue projecting your combat aura, allies who are currently benefiting from it continue to receive the aura's benefits for an additional 5 rounds. This benefit does not apply if you dismiss your aura voluntarily (for example, when switching to a new one or using the Now is the Time! feat).
Advancement: If you have fighter 3 and Commanding Aura, your commanding aura also gains this benefit.

MARTIAL PHYSIQUE [Fighter]
Through rigorous calisthenics and exercise, you have tuned your body to perform at its peak potential.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Martial Aptitude class feature, Fighter level 6th
Benefit: By incorporating physical training, endurance running, or stretching exercises into the hour of weapons drill involved in using Martial Aptitude, you gain a +2 competence bonus to either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This additional training does not increase the amount of time required to use Martial Aptitude, and the bonus lasts for 24 hours.
You cannot use the ability bonuses granted by Martial Physique to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.
Advancement: If you have character level 12th or greater, you can instead gain a +4 competence bonus, or +2 to two physical ability scores.
If you have character level 18th or greater, you can instead gain a +6 competence bonus, or +4 to one physical ability score and +2 to another, or +2 to all three.

NOW IS THE TIME! [Fighter]
You can urge your allies to greater prowess when the time is right.
Prerequisite: Fighter level 5th, Combat Aura +2 or greater
Benefit: Triple the benefit provided by all of your auras until the beginning of your next turn. At the beginning of your next turn, all of your auras are dismissed, and you cannot activate any auras for the remainder of the encounter.

SECOND STYLE [General]
You are familiar with the basics of another fighting style.
Prerequisite: Fighter 9th
Benefit: Select a fighting style other than the one in which you are trained, and select two of the skills available as key skills to students of that style. Both of those skills are added to your fighting style and become fighter class skills for you, and you may select one of them as an additional key skill for your fighting style.

Additionally, you may now choose Style feats in the new fighting style using your fighter bonus feat slots (only), but you must reduce your fighter level by 8 when qualifying for and advancing these feats. You still use your full character level with these feats for effects that check character level.

THIRD STYLE [General]
Your diverse training encompasses many different fighting styles.
Prerequisite: Fighter 17th, Second Style
Benefit: Select a fighting style other than the one in which you are trained, and select two of the skills available as key skills to students of that style. Both of those skills become key skills for your fighting style and become fighter class skills for you.

Additionally, you may now choose Style feats in the new fighting style using your fighter bonus feat slots (only), but you must reduce your fighter level by 16 when qualifying for and advancing these feats. You still use your full character level with these feats for effects that check character level.

[STYLE] FEATS
[Style] feats are simply [Fighter] feats that require a fighting style as a prerequisite. The [Style] feats presented here require the weapon master fighting style.
PEERLESS EINHANDER [Fighter, Style]
You possess exceptional skill at fighting mobile battles with a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other hand.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Spring Attack, Fighter 4th, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Benefit: When wielding a single one-handed weapon with no weapon or shield on your other limb, you gain all the benefits of wielding the weapon with both hands. You may not use the empty limb to attack while claiming this benefit (for example, by making a claw attack with it if you have claws).
Advancement: If you have character level 8th or higher, and are fighting as described above, you also gain a +10 ft untyped bonus to all of your existing movement speeds except burrowing. This bonus increased by +5 ft for every four character levels you have above 8th.
If you have character level 12th or higher, and are fighting as described above, you can spend a standard action to ready a full-round action once per encounter. You gain an additional use per encounter of this ability at 20th level.

PEERLESS HEWING [Fighter, Style]
You possess exception skill with weapons that allow you to bring great force to bear on your victim.
Prerequisites: Mage Slayer, Power Attack, Fighter 4th, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per round when wielding a weapon that has a natural, unmodified critical multiplier of x3 or x4 (such as most axes, hammers, or picks), you can designate one of your attacks with that weapon to be a Hewing Strike. This attack dazes the enemy struck for one round (Fort negates, DC = 10 + ½ character level + your Strength modifier).
Advancement: If you have character level 8th or higher, once per round when fighting as described above, you can deliver an Anchoring Strike. This attack halves all of the victim’s movement speeds for one round (Fortitude negates, DC = 10 + ½ character level +your Strength modifier). If your weapon is a magical or cold iron weapon, then the victim is also prevented from using teleportation or dimensional travel for that round.
If you have character level 12th or higher, once per round when fighting as described above, you can deliver a Sundering Strike. This attack ignores the hardness of objects. If your weapon is a magical or cold iron weapon, then your strike can also shatter a Force effect. Make a Strength check (with a bonus of +1 per 5 damage the attack would have dealt) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the force effect. Success destroys the effect.

PEERLESS HOPLITE [Fighter, Style]
You possess exceptional skill at fighting with a shield and piercing weapon.
Prerequisites: Shield specialization, Weapon Focus with a piercing weapon, Fighter 4th, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Benefit: When you wield a piercing weapon with which you have Weapon Focus in one hand and a shield with which you are specialized in the other, you gain all the benefits of holding the piercing weapon two-handed, even though you are not actually doing so. You can wield a two-handed piercing weapon that is sized appropriately for you in this manner as well, even though you normally cannot wield a two-handed weapon with one hand.
Advancement: If you have character level 8th and are fighting as described above, then enemies provoke attacks of opportunity from you when they charge into a square that you threaten. You deal damage on this attack of opportunity as if your weapon was set to receive a charge.
If you have character level 12th or higher and are fighting as described above, then once per day as an immediate action, you can perform a Shield Deflection to deflect an attack aimed at yourself or an adjacent ally. Make an attack roll as if you were performing a shield bash, but adding your shield’s AC bonus to your roll. If your attack roll exceeds that of your opponent, the attack is deflected. You can use this ability an additional time per day at 20th level.
Normal: You cannot wield a two-handed weapon in one hand.

PEERLESS MARKSMAN [Fighter, Style]
You possess exceptional skill with ranged weapons.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Fighter 4th, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Benefit: You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks.
Advancement: If you have character level 8th or higher, you can make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. You threaten out to a range of 5 feet per two character levels you have.
If you have character level 12th or greater, you double your threat range with ranged weapons. You also double the range at which you can apply other special range-related features, such as Point Blank Shot, skirmish, sneak attack, etc.

PEERLESS ZWEIHANDER [Fighter, Style]
You possess exceptional skill with a two-handed weapon.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Weapon Focus with a two-handed weapon, Fighter 4th, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon for which you have Weapon Focus, your attacks are severely distracting; opponents you attack suffer a 20% miss chance against everyone but you. This effect applies even if you miss, and lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Advancement: If you have character level 8th or higher and are fighting as described above, you can use Power Attack and take a penalty to your attack roll of -8 to deliver a Jolting Attack. An opponent struck twice consecutively in a single round by your jolting attack is shaken for two rounds. This condition stacks with fear from other sources, but not with itself.
If you have character level 12th or higher and are fighting as described above, your attacks deal double damage against any foes suffering from a fear effect.

WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [Fighter, Style]
Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe, for which you have already chosen weapon focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for the purpose of this feat. You deal more damage and can attack more often when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4th, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Benefit: When you attack with the selected weapon, you deal damage as if it was one size category larger. This benefit does not stack with other effects that cause your weapon to deal damage as if it was larger in size. You may opt to make an additional attack with this weapon at your full base attack bonus when making a full attack, but if you do, all of your attacks take a -2 penalty until the beginning of your next turn. You may gain this benefit only once per full attack, even if you are attacking with more than one weapon with which you are specialized.
Advancement: Your penalty is reduced to -1 at fighter level 8th and eliminated completely at fighter level 12th. Upon reaching fighter level 18th, you may make two additional attacks.
When you reach fighter level 12th, you deal damage as if the weapon was two size categories larger. When you reach fighter level 18th, you deal damage as if the weapon was three size categories larger.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:16 AM
Alternate Class Feature: Fighting Styles
The Weapon Master Fighting Style is a good style for soldiers, exotic weapon specialists, and fighters focused on advanced weapon techniques, but what if you want to give your fighter a different focus? Some fighters aren't heavily armored foot-soldiers, but are savage, bare-chested barbarians, mounted knights in shining armor, inspiring generals, brutish thugs and cutpurses, sharp-eyed bodyguards, dragon-hunters, or even more exotic sorts of heroes.

For these sorts of fighters, a different fighting style might be appropriate. In the seven posts below, you'll find seven new fighting styles available as alternate class features. These ACFs replace the fighter's weapon master style (and the benefits it provides) with differently themed abilities. Using these ACFs, your fighter can become a brutal barbarian, heavily armored cavalier, honorable samurai, a marshal of armies, or one of many other sorts of fighting-men.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:18 AM
This alternate class feature replaces your weapon master fighting style with the barbaric fighting style. Use this fighter ACF as a replacement for the barbarian class.


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/conan_sword-1.jpg

BARBARIC FIGHTING STYLE
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain proficiency with heavy armor, nor do you learn the weapon master fighting style. As such, you lose access to the extra class skills, proficiencies, key skill bonuses, bonus feats, and other benefits that provided by that style.
Benefit: You gain the barbaric fighting style, which is described below.


A fighter learns the barbaric fighting style in a primitive culture, one in which strength of sinew and cunning are pitted against harsh environments and dangerous foes. His training emphasizes raw ferocity over precision or skill.

A practitioner of the barbaric fighting style gains Knowledge (nature), Listen, and Survival as class skills. You also gain your choice of Ferocity, Rage, or Whirling Frenzy as a bonus feat, and you gain 2 additional skill points at each level (multiplied by 4 at 1st level, as normal). Additionally, select any two of the following skills: Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, and Survival. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. Your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level.


Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You also gain Uncanny Dodge as a bonus feat.

At 5th level, you gain Improved Uncanny Dodge as a bonus feat.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You gain your choice of Damage Reduction or Streetfighter as a bonus feat.

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the daring outlaw ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. You also gain your choice of Evasive Spin, Indomitable Will, or Shifting Stance as a bonus feat.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. In addition, you gain your Choice of Improved Shifting Stance or Tireless Rage as a bonus feat.


[STYLE] FEATS
These [Style] feats are meant for use with the barbaric fighting style.
DAMAGE REDUCTION [Fighter, Style]
You can shrug off some amount of injury from each blow or attack.
Prerequisite: Fighter 7th, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain damage reduction of DR 1/--. This damage reduction increases by three for each three character levels you gain beyond 7th.

EVASIVE SPIN [Fighter, Style]
You can dodge even area attacks while in a whirling frenzy.
Prerequisites: Fighter 14th, Whirling Frenzy, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain Evasion while in a whirling frenzy, allowing you to sustain no damage on a successful Reflex save against attacks that normally inflict half damage on a successful save. You must be wearing light or no armor to benefit from Evasive Spin.

FAST MOVEMENT [Fighter, Style]
You move more swiftly than normal for your race.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: As long as you are not wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load, your base land speed is increased by 10 feet.

FEROCIOUS RUSH [Fighter, Style]
You can deliver a ferocious shove to knock your opponents away.
Prerequisites: Fighter 8th, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You do not need to leave your square to initiate a bull rush, and do not need to move with the defender in order to move him more than 5 feet.
Advancement: If you have the Countering Strike feature, you can initiate a bull rush instead of making an attack when you use your countering strike.

FEROCITY [Fighter, Style]
You can enter a state of adrenaline-fueled fury a certain number of times per day.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per encounter as an immediate action, you may enter a state of ferocity (you can do this even when flat-footed at the start of combat, before making an initiative check). You gain +4 Strength and +4 Dexterity, but take a -2 penalty on ranged attacks beyond 30 feet. While in a state of ferocity, you cannot use any Charisma- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can you cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger, or a spell completion to function. You also cannot use any item creation or metamagic feats.

Ferocity lasts for five minutes, unless you choose to end it sooner. When you end your ferocity, you are sickened for five minutes. Your ferocity is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at fighter level 4th, and every four levels thereafter.
Advancement: If you have character level 11 or higher, your ferocity instead grants you +6 Strength and +6 Dexterity.
If you have character level 20 or higher, your ferocity instead grants you +8 Strength and +8 Dexterity.
Special: If you have Ferocity, you may not choose the Rage or Whirling Frenzy feats.

INDOMITABLE WILL [Fighter, Style]
You are difficult to affect with hostile enchantments while raging.
Prerequisites: Fighter 14th, Rage, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells while raging.

RAGE [Fighter, Style]
You can fly into a screaming blood frenzy a certain number of times per day.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per encounter on your turn, you may enter a state of rage (this does not require an action). You gain +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but take a -2 penalty to AC. While raging, you cannot use any Charisma- Dexterity- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can you cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger, or a spell completion to function. You also cannot use Combat Expertise or any item creation or metamagic feats.

Your rage lasts for five minutes, unless you choose to end it sooner. When you end your rage, you are fatigued for five minutes. Your rage is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at fighter level 4th, and every four levels thereafter.
Advancement: If you have character level 11 or higher, your rage instead grants you +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, and a +3 morale bonus on Will saves.
If you have character level 20 or higher, your rage instead grants you +8 Strength, +8 Constitution, and a +4 morale bonus on Will saves.
Special: If you have Rage, you may not choose the Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy feats.

SHIFTING STANCE [Fighter, Style]
You are agile and quick on your feat while in a state of ferocity.
Prerequisites: Fighter 13th, Ferocity, Barbaric Fighting Style.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class and Reflex saves while in a state of ferocity. In addition, while in a state of ferocity, you can stand from prone as a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You still provoke attacks of opportunity while standing from prone against foes with a base attack bonus 4 or more points higher than your base attack bonus.

SHIFTING STANCE, IMPROVED [Fighter, Style]
You avoid harm even more effectively while in a state of ferocity, and can better resist the effects of the adrenaline crash that follows it.
Prerequisites: Fighter 17, Ferocity, Shifting Stance, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: The dodge bonus granted by your Shifting Stance increases to +2, and you are not sickened when you end your ferocity.

SHOCKWAVE STRIKE [Fighter, Style]
You can make a furious ground strike that knocks other creatures down.
Prerequisites: Strength 20, Fighter 16th, Power Attack, and either Rage, Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: While in a state of rage, ferocity, or whirling frenzy, you can expend one additional use of the ability and strike the ground with your weapon or foot as a full-round action. The impact creates a shockwave that travels through the surface you're standing on, originating from your square. You decide which area to affect: either a 60-foot line, a 30-foot cone, or a 20-foot radius burst. Make a bull rush attack by rolling once regardless of how many creatures are in the effect. Every creature standing on the surface within your area of effect make a Strength check and compares it to your roll. Those who fail their opposed checks are knocked down.
Special: Structures and unattended objects at least partially within the shock wave take damage equal to 1d6 + one and a half times your Strength bonus in damage (as if your attack was made with a two-handed weapon). If you gain any special benefits when dealing damage to objects, those benefits apply to this attack (DM's judgment as to which benefits apply and how).
Advancement: If you have one or more Dungeon Crasher feats, you deal appropriate damage to each tripped creature in the effect, since you have effectively bull-rushed it into a solid object (the ground). Also, you deal your Dungeon Crasher damage to structures and unattended objects instead of the damage listed above.

STREETFIGHTER [Fighter, Style]
You've learned several tricks to win fights by hitting harder and faster than your opponent.
Prerequisite: Fighter 7th, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: The critical threat range of any charge attack you make, or any attack you make against a flat-footed foe, increases by 1. This ability stacks with the Improved Critical feat or the keen weapon enhancement.
Advancement:

At 10th level, you can make a single turn, up to 90 degrees, during a charge.
At 13th level, you can charge through squares occupied by your allies or by noncombatants.
At 16th level, you can move up to four times your speed when making a charge attack, rather than double.
At 19th level, you acquire a "cleaving charge." If you drop an opponent on a charge attack, and have at least 10 feet of movement remaining, you can immediately make a new charge attack against a second foe. If you drop that foe and still have movement remaining, you can charge a third, and so on until you either fail to drop a foe or run out of movement. All the other standard rules for a charge attack still apply, including the fact that you must have at least 10 feet of distance to make the charge.
Even if you somehow gain the ability to make multiple attacks on a charge (such as with the Totem: Lion Pounce feat), you must drop the foe on your first attack to use this ability. Similarly, you cannot use this ability and Cleave in the same round.

TIRELESS RAGE [Fighter, Style]
Your rage or whirling frenzy does not fatigue you.
Prerequisites: Fighter 17th, Rage or Whirling Frenzy, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You are not fatigued when you end your rage or whirling frenzy.

TOTEM, APE CLIMBING [Fighter, Style]
You can climb like an ape.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain a climb speed equal to one-half your base land speed.
Advancement: If you have character level 5th or higher, your climb speed increases to equal your base land speed.

TOTEM, BEAR GRAPPLE [Fighter, Style]
You can grapple like a bear.
Prerequisite: Fighter 2nd, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain the Improved Grab ability (MM 310).

TOTEM, DRAGON PRESENCE [Fighter, Style]
You gain the unsettling presence of a dragon.
Prerequisite: Fighter 5th, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain the Frightful Presence ability (MM 309). It takes effect automatically when you perform some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within 30 feet who witness the action may become shaken for 5d6 rounds. Your frightful presence affects only opponents with fewer hit dice or levels than you have. An opponent in the affected area can resist the effect with a successful Will save (DC 10 + half your character level + your Cha modifier). An opponent who succeeds on the saving throw is immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours.
Advancement: If you have fighter 9th or greater, affected opponents are instead frightened for 5d6 rounds.

TOTEM, EAGLE SIGHT [Fighter, Style]
You gain the clear vision of an eagle.
Prerequisite: Fighter 7th, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain low-light vision, or your existing low-light vision becomes improved low-light vision, or your existing improved low-light vision becomes superior low-light vision. Additionally, your penalty on Spot checks for distance is halved (-1 per 20 feet instead of -1 per 10 feet).

TOTEM, LION POUNCE [Fighter, Style]
You can pounce like a charging lion.
Prerequisites: Fighter 1st, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: As long as you are not wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load, you can make a full attack at the end of a charge.

TRAP SENSE [Fighter, General, Style]
You have an intuitive sense that alerts you to danger from traps.
Prerequisites: Fighter 3rd and Barbaric Fighting Style or Daring Outlaw 2nd
Benefit: You add +1 per three class levels (minimum +1) as a competence bonus to Search and Disable Device checks involving traps. You also add this bonus to saves made against traps and to your AC against attacks made by traps. If you have levels in classes that qualify for this feat (such as barbaric fighter and daring outlaw), stack those levels in all such classes to determine the size of your trap sense bonus.

UNCANNY DODGE [Fighter, General, Style]
You react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so.
Prerequisites: Fighter 2nd and Barbaric Fighting Style, Daring Outlaw 4th, or Swift Hunter 2nd
Benefit: You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, you still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

UNCANNY DODGE, IMPROVED [Fighter, General, Style]
You can react to opponents on opposite sides of you as easily as you can react to a single attacker.
Prerequisites: Fighter 5th and Barbaric Fighting Style or Daring Outlaw 8, Uncanny Dodge
Benefit: You cannot be flanked except by a daring outlaw whose character level is 4 or more levels higher than your character level.

WHIRLING FRENZY [Fighter, Style]
When angered, you can become a whirling dervish of destruction a certain number of times per day.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Barbaric Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per encounter on your turn, you may enter a whirling frenzy (this does not require an action). You gain +4 Strength, a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Additionally, you may make one extra attack in a round at your highest base attack bonus, but all your attacks take a -2 penalty for one round if you do so. While raging, you cannot use any Charisma- Dexterity- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Ride, and Tumble), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can you cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger, or a spell completion to function. You also cannot useany item creation or metamagic feats.

Your whirling frenzy lasts for five minutes, unless you choose to end it sooner. When you end your whirling frenzy, you are fatigued for five minutes. Your whirling frenzy is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at fighter level 4th, and every four levels thereafter.
Advancement: If you have character level 11 or higher, your whirling frenzy instead grants you +6 Strength, and a +3 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves.
If you have character level 20 or higher, your rage instead grants you +8 Strength, and a +4 dodge bonus on AC and Reflex saves.
Special: If you have Whirling Frenzy, you may not choose the Ferocity or Rage feats.

Design Notes:
A number of these feats were formerly described within the rules as class features or alternate class features. By converting them to feats, I achieve two goals:
You no longer have to choose between a core class feature and an ACF. You can take both, buying one through your fighting style and the other with a feat slot.
If an ACF is nice some of the time, you can opt to have it only some of the time by selecting it as one of your fighter bonus feats and retraining it to something else when it's not useful to the task at hand.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:19 AM
This alternate class feature replaces your weapon master fighting style with the cavalry fighting style. Use this fighter ACF as a replacement for the cavalier prestige class.


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/Conan.jpg

CAVALRY FIGHTING STYLE
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not learn the weapon master fighting style. As such, you lose access to the extra class skills, proficiencies, key skill bonuses, bonus feats, and other benefits that provided by that style.
Benefit: You gain the cavalry fighting style, which is described below.


A practitioner of the cavalry fighting style learns to fight from the back of a mount. A fighter who learns this style may be a chivalrous knight, a hunter for a wandering plains tribe, or an elite dragon-rider, but the cost of supporting a mounted combatant marks him as one of the most expensive warriors his culture supports.

The cavalry fighting style grants you the Wild Cohort feat as a bonus feat. Additionally, choose any two of the following: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Ride, and Survival. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. They permanently become fighter class skills for you if you do not have them alreadu, and your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level.


Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You also gain your choice of Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, or Trample.

At 5th level, you gain your choice of Burst of Speed or Deadly Charge as a bonus feat.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You learn to work with your wild cohort when using your Mobile Combatant feature, and you can use Mobile Combatant to make a full attack as a standard action even when your wild cohort moves more than 5 feet in a round. Your wild cohort’s speed improves by +10 feet for each of its movement modes, and if it can fly, its maneuverability improves by one class.

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the daring outlaw ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. Protecting your wild cohort with the Mounted Combat feat no longer required an action for you, and your wild cohort’s speed boost improves to +20 feet.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. Your wild cohort’s speed boost improves to +30 feet, and if it can fly, its maneuverability is now two classes better than normal.

CORE FEATS REMIXED
These are the feats you know, remixed for better balance.
MOUNTED ARCHERY [Fighter, General]
You are skilled at using ranged weapons while mounted.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat
Benefit: The penalty you take when using a ranged weapon while mounted is greatly reduced: -2 instead of -4 if your mount is taking a double move, and -4 instead of -8 if your mount is running (see Mounted Combat, PHB p.157).
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +4 or greater, the penalties are further reduced: you take no penalty when your mount is taking a double move, and -2 instead of -4 if your mount is running. You can attack at any time during your mount's move. If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, you take no penalties for using a ranged weapon while mounted, and can attack at any time during your mount's move.

MOUNTED COMBAT [Fighter, General]
You are skilled in mounted combat.
Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank
Benefit: As an immediate action when your mount is hit in combat or fails a saving throw, you may attempt a Ride check to negate the hit or a Handle Animal check to reroll the saving throw. The hit or effect is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent's attack roll or your Handle Animal check meets or exceeds the DC of the saving throw. Essentially, you get to use the Ride check in place of the mount's Armor Class or the Handle Animal check in place of the mount's saving throw.

RIDE-BY ATTACK [Fighter, General]
You are skilled at making fast attacks from your mount.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity for the opponent you attack.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, designate a second foe. The movement of you and your mount does not provoke attacks of opportunity from either of these foes. Also, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty. You can use both of the attacks against one of the opponents targeted with this feat, or split the attacks between them.
If you have base attack bonus +18 or greater, designate a third foe and gain a third attack with a -10 penalty.

GENERAL FEATS
These are new general feats that are especially useful to a fighter who knows the cavalry fighting style.
MASTER ANIMAL TRAINER
Your mount is exceptionally responsive to your commands.
Prerequisites: Handle Animal 8 ranks, Wild Cohort
Benefit: You can use the Handle Animal Skill on your animal cohort as a swift action, rather than a move action. There is no limit to the number of tricks you can teach to your animal cohort

MOUNTED SCOUT
You and your mount work together as a masterful stealthy spotter.
Prerequisites: Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Spot 1 rank, and either the Mounted Combat feat or a special mount, animal companion, or wild cohort.
Benefit: If you have more ranks in Hide Listen, Move Silently, or Spot than your mount does, it uses your ranks instead of its own. You can use this ability with your special mount, animal companion, or wild cohort, or with any mount you ride if you have the Mounted Combat feat. Even if you and your mount do not share a language, you share an intuitive link and you both become immediately aware if either of you has detected something that the other has not.

[STYLE] FEATS
These feats are meant for use with the cavalry fighting style.
BURST OF SPEED [Fighter, Style]
You can spur your mount to greater speed during a charge
Prerequisites: Fighter 5th, Mounted Combat, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: Your mount can move up to four times its speed when charging, rather than twice its speed. You can use this ability once per day without risk. Each additional time per day that you use it, your mount sustains 2d6 nonlethal damage.

DEADLY CHARGE [Fighter, Style]
You can deal terrific damage with a charge.
Prerequisites: Fighter 9, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per day as a free action, you can declare your next mounted charge attack this round to be a deadly charge. If it hits, it deals double damage. This benefit stacks with other effects that double your charge damage such as the Spirited Charge feat or a lance. You gain an additional daily use of this feat for each two character levels you possess beyond 9th.

EVASIVE MANEUVERS [Fighter, Style]
You can juke your mount to avoid an attack.
Prerequisites: Fighter 6th, Mounted Combat, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: When using Mounted Combat to protect your mount from an attack, you can grant your mount a 50% miss chance against the attack instead of making a Ride check to replace its Armor Class.

PIERCE THE VEIL, IMPALE THE SOUL [Fighter, Style]
Your charge attacks can paralyze an opponent.
Prerequisites: Fighter 12th, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: Whenever you deal damage with a mounted charge, your opponent is nauseated by the pain for one round (Fortitude negates, DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + Str modifier).
Advancement: If you have fighter 15th and the Deadly Charge feat, then opponents damaged by your deadly charge are instead paralyzed with pain for one round, or nauseated on a successful save.

SUDDEN MOVEMENT [Fighter, Style]
You can spur your mount into an unexpected burst of motion.
Prerequisites: Fighter 5th, Burst of Speed, Wild Cohort, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: As a swift action, your mount moves up to its speed. Neither you nor it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement. At the end of your turn, your mount becomes winded, and cannot run or charge. This condition lasts until the mount spends a move action to recover its wind.

TERRIFYING HOWL [Fighter, Style]
The rushing wind from your charge attacks generates a terrifying sound.
Prerequisites: Fighter 9th, Burst of Speed, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Wild Cohort, Windburst Charge, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: The howling winds created by your Windburst Charge feat cause creatures within the affected area to become shaken for one round (Will negates, DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + mount's Str modifier). This shaken condition does not stack with itself, but does stack with fear effects from other sources.

TRAMPLING RUSH [Fighter, Style]
You can use your mount to trample foes.
Prerequisites: Fighter 10th, Mounted Combat, Trample, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: If your mount is at least Large size, it gains the Trample special ability (see MM1 316 for details). It deals trample damage as normal for a slam attack of a creature of it size (see table 5-1 on MM1 296), unless it already has a better slam attack. It adds 1 1/2 times its Strength bonus to damage, as normal for a trample.

WILD COHORT, BESTIAL [Fighter, Style]
You can select a magical beast as your wild cohort.
Prerequisites: Fighter 7th, Natural Bond, Wild Cohort, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: Add the following additional creatures to your list of available wild cohorts. The list below catalogues creatures from the Monster Manual that are suitable for use as mounts by Small or Medium creatures. At the DM's discretion, additional magical beasts from other Monster Manuals may be available. The DM may require you to fulfill specific in-game requirements before taking this feat, and may bar you from selecting specific wild cohorts that are inappopriate to the game.


4th Level or Higher (Level -3)
Blink Dog
Hippogriff
Krenshar
Worg


7th Level or Higher (Level -6)
Ankheg
Displacer Beast
Eagle, Giant
Griffon
Owl, Giant
Pegasus
Sea Cat
Unicorn


10th Level or Higher (Level -9)
Manticore
Sphinx, Hieracosphinx
Spider Eater
Winter Wolf


13th Level or Higher (Level -12)
Bulette
Chimera
Dragonne
Phase Spider
Sphinx, Criosphinx


16th Level or Higher (Level -15)
Roc
Sphinx, Androsphinx or Gynosphinx
Yrthak

Advancement: If you have the Mounted Combat feat, you can use Handle Animal to assist your magical beast mount with a saving throw at no penalty, despite the fact that it is not an animal.

WILD COHORT, DRACONIC [Fighter, Style]
You can select a dragon as your wild cohort.
Prerequisites: Fighter 10th, Natural Bond, Wild Cohort, Speak Language (Draconic), Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: Add the following additional creatures to your list of available wild cohorts. The list below catalogues creatures that are suitable for use as mounts by Small or Medium creatures. Alternately, you may gain a half-dragon cohort of a type you could normally obtain (for example, you could gain a half-dragon tiger, reducing your effective druid level by -6 as normal for a wild tiger cohort. Your wild cohort may have a maximum of one template, and cannot gain a template for which it does not qualify. The DM may require you to fulfill specific in-game requirements before taking this feat, and may bar you from selecting specific wild cohorts that are inappropriate to the game.


4th Level or Higher (Level -3)
Felldrake, Spitting


7th Level or Higher (Level -6)
Dracotaur
Dragonnel
Felldrake, Horned
Felldrake, Spiked
True dragon of CR 3-4


10th Level or Higher (Level -9)
Ambush Drake
True dragon of CR 5


13th Level or Higher (Level -12)
Elemental Drake, Air Drake
Elemental Drake, Ice Drake
Landwyrm, Plains Landwyrm
True dragon of CR 6-7
Wyvern


16th Level or Higher (Level -15)
Dragon Turtle
Elemental Drake, Smoke Drake
Elemental Drake, Water Drake
Landwyrm, Underdark Landwyrm
Rage Drake
True dragon of CR 8-9


19th Level or Higher (Level -18)
Dragon Eel
Elemental Drake, Earth Drake
Landwyrm, Forest Landwyrm
True dragon of CR 10-11

Advancement: If you have the Mounted Combat feat, you can use Handle Animal to assist your dragon mount with a saving throw at no penalty, despite the fact that it is not an animal.

WILD COHORT, EXOTIC [Fighter, Style]
You have an exotic, unusual wild cohort.
Prerequisites: Fighter 6th, Natural Bond, Wild Cohort, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: You can acquire a cohort with any one of the following templates: celestial, dark, dungeonbred, fiendish, horrid, magebred, pseudonatural, or warbeast. Your wild cohort may have a maximum of one template, and cannot gain a template for which it does not qualify. At the DM's discretion, other templates with a level adjustment of no more than +2 may be available. The DM may require you to fulfill specific in-game requirements before taking this feat, and may bar you from selecting specific templates that are inappopriate to the game.
Advancement: If you have the Mounted Combat feat, you can use Handle Animal to assist your wild cohort mount with a saving throw at no penalty, even if its template has changed its type to something other than animal.

WINDBURST CHARGE [Fighter, Style]
With your guidance your mount can move so fast that your passage generates tremendous winds.
Prerequisites: Fighter 9th, Burst of Speed, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Wild Cohort, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: When your mount uses Burst of Speed, you and your mount gain a 10% miss chance until the beginning of your next turn. Additionally, you can choose for the path of its movement and the spaces adjacent to this path to be subjected to severe wind conditions until the beginning of your next turn (see DMG 95 for details on the effects of wind conditions). Creatures pushed by the wind do not provoke attacks of opportunity for their involuntary movement. You and your mount are not affected by this wind, although any ranged attacks you make are affected.
Advancement: If you have fighter level 13 or greater, the miss chance is 20% and the wind conditions are of windstorm strength instead.
If you have fighter level 17 or greater, the miss chance is 30% and the wind conditions are of hurricane strength instead.

WING CLIP [Fighter, Style]
You can use your mount's wings to perform aerial trips against flying opponents as it strafes by.
Prerequisites: Fighter 8th, Deadly Charge, Wild Cohort, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: Whenever your mount performs an aerial charge, it can make a free trip attempt against one creature it threatens at any point during its charge. If it fails its trip attempt and is tripped in return, its charge is ruined and it begins falling as normal. Falling creatures do not provoke attacks of opportunity for their involuntary movement.
Special: If your mount is capable of making wing buffet attacks, it does not provoke attacks of opportunity when attempting a wing clip.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, you can guide your mount to make a second free trip attempt against the same or another creature during its charge.
If you have base attack bonus +18 or greater, you can guide your mount to make a third free trip attempt during its charge, against up to three total creatures.

WING CLIP, IMPROVED [Fighter, Style]
No opponent is safe from your wing clip maneuver.
Prerequisites: Fighter 18th, Deadly Charge, Wild Cohort, Wing Clip, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: Your mount can use wing clip against every creature it threatens at any point during its charge. If it attempts to trip an opponent and fails, the opponent may not attempt to trip it in return.
Special: If your mount is capable of making wing buffet attacks, it does not provoke attacks of opportunity when attempting a wing clip.

WINGED PARRY [Fighter, Style]
You can use your mount's wings to parry attacks while landbound.
Prerequisites: Fighter 9th, Wild Cohort, Cavalry Fighting Style
Benefit: With your guidance, your winged mount can weave its wings about in a vigorous defensive pattern that frustrates the aim of your foes. In any round where your mount elects not to fly or make wing buffet attacks, you and the mount gain concealment until the beginning of your next turn (this concealment cannot be used to hide). You both lose this benefit whenever your mount would be denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, or when it flies or performs a wing buffet.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:21 AM
This alternate class feature replaces your weapon master fighting style with the commanding fighting style. Use this fighter ACF as a replacement for the marshal class.


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/97112.jpg

COMMANDING FIGHTING STYLE
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not learn the weapon master fighting style. As such, you lose access to the extra class skills, proficiencies, key skill bonuses, bonus feats, and other benefits that provided by that style.
Benefit: You gain the commanding fighting style, which is described below.


A fighter who learns the commanding style is a general, a chieftain, a warlord, or an officer, skilled at marshaling troops in battle and able to lead from the front. A practitioner of the commanding fighting style inspires his companions to fight more effectively.

The commanding fighting style grants you Commanding Aura as a bonus feat. Additionally, choose any two of the following: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. They permanently become fighter class skills for you if you do not have them already, and your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level.


Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You also gain your choice of Expert Aid or Supporting Strike as a bonus feat.

At 5th level, you gain Grant Move Action as a bonus feat.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You gain your choice of Final Stand or Inspire Awe as a bonus feat.

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the daring outlaw ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. You gain your choice of either Improved Supporting Strike or Platoon Leader as a bonus feat.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. You gain Inspire Legion as a bonus feat.


[STYLE] FEATS
These feats are meant for use with the commanding fighting style.
BATTLEFIELD COMMANDER [Fighter, Style, Tactical]
You can best aid your allies and distract your foes when you have a clear view of the battle.
Prerequisites: Fighter 6th, Expert Aid, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefits: Battlefield Commander grants you the use of four tactical maneuvers. Whenever you make an Aid Another attempt against a foe you do not threaten, you can choose to claim one of these benefits instead of the normal benefit of Aid Another.
Be on your guard: The flat-footed ally you're aiding is no longer flat-footed.
I'm with you: The ally you're aiding draws comfort and reassurance from your steady presence and gains temporary hit points equal to its own character level. These temporary hit points last for one round.
Stand with me: The ally you're aiding sheds one level of fear (panicked becomes frightened, frightened becomes shaken, or shaken is removed).
Run you dogs: The foe you targeted is shaken for one minute (Will negates, DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + Charisma modifier). An opponent who successfully saves against this effect cannot be affected again for the remainder of the encounter.
Advancement: If you have character level 10 or greater, an ally you aid with Be On Your Guard gains Uncanny Dodge for one round.
If you have character level 14 or greater, an ally you aid with Be On Your Guard also gains Improved Uncanny Dodge for one round.

COMBAT AURA, IMPROVED [Fighter, Style]
Your combat aura is unusually effective.
Prerequisite: Fighter 3rd, combat Aura, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: The bonus granted by all of your combat auras improves by +1.

COMMANDING AURA [Fighter, Style]
You can effectively command allies in your vicinity.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: You learn to project an aura similar to your combat aura that grants you and nearby allies a special benefit. You learn to project several auras that offer different benefits, but you may project only one commanding aura at a time. At first you know only a single commanding aura. You learn an additional commanding aura when you reach 3rd level in fighter, and every two levels thereafter.

Projecting a commanding aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until you use a swift action to dismiss it or until you activate a different combat aura. Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. You size up enemies, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best.

Unless otherwise noted, your commanding aura affects all allies (including yourself) within 60 feet who can hear you. Affected allies must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand your language. Your aura is dismissed if you are dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard and understood by your allies.

A commanding aura lets allies add your Charisma bonus to certain rolls. All bonuses granted by a commanding aura are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other. Commanding aura does not stack with the benefits of the Combat Aura class feature or the Aid Another action.


Accurate strike: bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Demand Fortitude: Bonus on Fortitude saves.
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Force of Will: Bonus on Will saves.
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Watchful Eye: Bonus on Reflex saves.

DOMINEERING PRESENCE [Fighter, Style, Tactical]
You can manipulate allies and foes alike with your overbearing manner.
Prerequisites: Intimidate 16 ranks, Fighter 13th, Platoon Leader or Improved Supporting Strike, True Grit, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: Domineering Presence grants you the use of three tactical maneuvers. Whenever you make an Aid Another Attempt, you can choose to claim one of these benefits instead of the normal benefit of Aid Another.
Stand down, or I will stand you down: The foe you targeted is either dazed or staggered for one round (Will partial, DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + Charisma modifier). An opponent who successfully saves against this effect cannot be affected again for the remainder of the encounter.
Walk it off, soldier: Expend one use of True Grit to allow the ally you're aiding to reduce or negate a condition that True Grit could reduce or negate.
Snap out of it: The ally you targeted gains a new saving throw against any one charm, confusion, dominate, or feeblemind effect current affecting it.

DUAL AURAS [Fighter, Style]
You can activate and maintain two auras at once.
Prerequisites: Fighter 14th, Commanding Aura, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: You can now maintain two combat auras at once. As a swift action, you may activate one or two auras that you know, and as a free action you may dismiss any or all of your active auras. If you activate a new aura while you already have two auras of that type in effect, you choose which of the existing auras is dismissed to make way for the new effect.
Advancement: If you have fighter 18th, you can also maintain two commanding auras at once.

EXPERT AID [Fighter, Style]
You can aid and support your allies with a mere shouted command or phrase.
Prerequisite: Fighter 2nd, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: You may take 10 on Aid Another attempts, may make them at a range of up to 60 feet as long as you have line of sight to both your ally and your ally’s opponent, and finally may make them as a move action instead of, or in addition to, a standard action.
Advancement: If you have character level 9th or higher, your Aid Another attempts grant a +5 bonus, and you may make Aid Another attempts as swift actions instead of, or in addition to, move actions or standard actions.

FINAL STAND [Fighter, Style]
You can inspire your troops to heroic effort.
Prerequisites: Diplomacy 12 ranks, Fighter 9th, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain the ability to make Diplomacy check as a full-round action to inspire your allies to stand against all odds. You and a number of allies equal to your character level + your Charisma bonus gain a number of bonus hit points as shown on the chart below, to a maximum of 100% of their full normal hit points total. These temporary hit points last five minutes. Each time after the first that you successfully use this ability in a single 24-hour period, the check DC increases by 10.


Check ResultBonus
302d10
404d10
506d10
608d10
7010d10
8012d10

GRANT MOVE ACTION [Fighter, Style]
You can direct and motivate your allies to act immediately.
Prerequisite: Fighter 4th, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per day as a standard action, you may grant an extra move action to any or all of your allies (but not yourself) within 30 feet. Each affected ally takes this extra move action immediately, resolved in their current initiative order (this doesn’t change their initiative counts). You gain an additional use per day of this feat for each 4 additional character levels you gain above 4th.

INSPIRE AWE [Fighter, Style]
You can inspire uneasiness, fear, or even terror in your foes.
Prerequisites: Combat Aura, Fighter 9th, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: You can spend a standard action to inspire awe among foes within your combat aura. Affected enemies cannot benefit from any morale bonuses from effects while they remain within your aura (Will negates, DC = 10 + ½ your character level + your Charisma modifier). Your Inspire Awe lasts for one minute. Enemies who fail the save against it are automatically affected again if they exit and re-enter your aura, but no enemy subjected to your Inspire Awe need save against it more than once in a 24 hour period (subsequent attempts you make to Inspire Awe in them during this period automatically fail).

INSPIRE LEGION [Fighter, Style]
You can unite allies under your leadership to make them fight better.
Prerequisites: Combat Aura (motivate ardor), Fighter 17th, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: As a standard action, you direct and command your allies to excellence in battle. All allies within the range of your commanding aura use your base attack bonus instead of their own, if yours is higher. If your motivate ardor combat aura is active during this time, the bonus it provides increases by +1. These effects last for one minute.

LEAD FROM THE FRONT [Fighter, Style, Tactical]
You can best aid your allies and distract your foes when you're right in the middle of the action.
Prerequisites: Fighter 6th, Supporting Strike, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefits: Lead From the Front grants you the use of four tactical maneuvers. Whenever you make an Aid Another attempt following a successful supporting strike, you can choose to claim one of these benefits instead of the normal benefit of Aid Another.
Get up, soldier: The ally you're aiding immediately stands from prone without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Kick them while they're down: Until the beginning of your next turn, the enemy you struck must spend a full-round action rather than a standard action to stand from prone.
Move it, soldier: The ally you're aiding can immediately take a free 5-foot step that does not count against his normal one-per-turn limit.
Hold it right there: Until the beginning of your next turn, the enemy you struck cannot take 5-foot steps.

PLATOON LEADER [Fighter, Style]
You can skillfully direct the actions of a larger group of allies.
Prerequisites: Fighter 13th, Expert Aid, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: When you use Aid Another as a standard action, you can affect a number of allies within range equal to your Charisma bonus. You must give all allies the same benefit.

SUPPORTING STRIKE [Fighter, Style]
You can time your attacks to provide the best possible benefit to your allies.
Prerequisite: Fighter 2nd, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per round when you succeed on a melee attack against an opponent that is engaging an ally in melee combat, you can make an Aid Another check as a free action to aid your ally.
Advancement: If you have character level 9th or higher, your Aid Another attempts grant a +5 bonus.

SUPPORTING STRIKE, IMPROVED [Fighter, Style]
Your every attack is timed to maximize its benefit to your allies.
Prerequisites: Fighter 13th, Supporting Strike, Commanding Fighting Style
Benefit: You may take 10 on Aid Another attempts. You may use your supporting strike on any melee attack you make during your turn, rather than only once per round.

SUPREME COMMANDER [Fighter, Style]
Under your direction, even the rawest of recruits fights like an elite soldier.
Prerequisites: Fighter 20th, Commanding Aura, Dual Auras
Benefit: You can now maintain as many combat and commanding auras as you know simultaneously. As a swift action, you may activate any or all of the auras that you know.

Timely Orders [Fighter, Style]
When the unexpected occurs, you can bark out an order quickly enough to avert disaster or take advantage of an opportunity.
Prerequisites: Fighter 11, Commanding Aura
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can either make an Aid Another check or activate a single aura that you know.
Advancement: If you have Countering Strike and the Improved Supporting Strike feat, you can declare your countering strike to be a supporting strike.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:23 AM
This alternate class feature replaces your weapon master fighting style with the cunning fighting style. Use this fighter ACF as a replacement for the thug and sneak attack variant fighter classes described in Unearthed Arcana.


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/black_warrior_elf.jpg

CUNNING FIGHTING STYLE
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain proficiency with medium or heavy armor, nor do you learn the weapon master fighting style. As such, you lose access to the extra class skills, proficiencies, key skill bonuses, bonus feats, and other benefits that provided by that style.
Benefit: You gain the cunning fighting style, which is described below.


A fighter who practices the cunning fighting style may be a gladiator specializing in dirty tricks, a bounty hunter, or the muscle behind a thieves’ guild. His training emphasizes exploiting the weaknesses of others.

The cunning fighting style grants you Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand as class skills, and 2 additional skill points at each level (multiplied by 4 at 1st level, as normal). You gain +1d6 sneak attack. Additionally, select any two of the following skills: Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. Your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level. Finally, the Urban Tracking feat is considered a fighter bonus feat for you.


Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You can use Bluff to feint or Sleight of Hand to steal something as a move action, and take only a -10 penalty when using sleight of hand to steal something as a swift action.

At 5th level, you gain your choice of +2d6 sneak attack or an [Ambush] feat for which you qualify.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You ruthlessly exploit your skill at theft and misdirection. You can now use Bluff to feint as a swift action, and take no penalty when using Sleight of Hand to steal something as a swift action.

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the daring outlaw ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. You gain your choice of +2d6 sneak attack or an [Ambush] feat for which you qualify.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. You gain your choice of +2d6 sneak attack or an [Ambush] feat for which you qualify.


A word about precision damage:
Sneak attack. It defines the 3.5 rogue (and the fighter's cunning fighting style as well), but is also his Achilles heel: half of the monsters he'll face are immune to it, and all sorts of precision damage, sidelining the sneak-attacking far too often for the class to be playable. The cunning fighting style assumes a major change in the operating rules of the game: only oozes and swarms are immune to critical hits and precision damage; all other creature types have weaknesses to exploit, even if they're different than the weaknesses of most living, flesh-and-blood creatures. Embrace this change, and precision-based strikers will prosper. Under standard rules, precision damage is subpar.

[Ambush] Feats
[Ambush] feats are excellent choices for fighters who practice the cunning fighting style.
ARTERIAL STRIKE [Ambush]
Your sneak attacks target blood vessels, leaving wounds that cause massive blood loss.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: If you hit with a sneak attack, you deliver a wound that won't stop bleeding. Each wound caused in this manner saps an extra 2 points of damage per round from the victim at the beginning of each of your turns, until the victim receives the benefit of a DC 15 Heal check or any cure spell or other magical healing. Wounds from multiple arterial strikes result in cumulative bleeding loss (two successful arterial strikes cause an extra 4 points of damage per round until healed).
An opponent who suffers 4 or more points of bleeding damage from this feat becomes fatigued. An opponent who suffers 12 or more points of bleeding damage from this feat becomes exhausted.
Special: Using this feat reduces your sneak attack damage by 1d6.

BLINDING STRIKE [Ambush]
Your stealthy attack leaves your foe’s head ringing.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack causes the target to be blinded for 3 rounds per sneak attack die that you forfeit.
Special: If you forfeit three sneak attack dice when using this feat, the target is blinded permanently (although the blindness can still be healed by spells such as remove blindness).

CONCUSSION ATTACK [Ambush]
Your attacks can damage your opponent’s ability to think clearly.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6.
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack imposes a –2 penalty per two dice of sneak attack you forfeit, applied to the target’s mental ability checks, mental skill checks, and spell save DCs, for 10 rounds. If you use this feat a second time on a target before 10 rounds have elapsed, the effects overlap but do not stack.
Special: Using this feat reduces your sneak attack damage by 2d6 per -2 penalty you choose to inflict.

DEAFENING STRIKE [Ambush]
Your stealthy attack leaves your foe’s head ringing.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack causes the target to be deafened for 3 rounds per sneak attack die that you forfeit.
Special: If you forfeit three sneak attack dice when using this feat, the target is deafened permanently (although the deafness can still be healed by spells such as remove deafness).

DETERRING STRIKE[Ambush]
You can deliver strikes that appear to be much more deadly than they are, cowing your opponent into a timid response.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack grants you a +1 bonus on all saving throws against that foe's abilities and causes the opponent to suffer a 10% miss chance against you, per sneak attack die that you forfeit. This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

DISEMBOWELING STRIKE [Ambush]
You can slash open your opponent to devastating effect.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, Weapon Focus (any slashing weapon).
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack with a slashing weapon for which you have selected Weapon Focus deals 1d4 points of Constitution damage per two sneak attack dice that you forfeit, in addition to its normal damage. You can’t use this feat against the same target more than once per day.

ELDRITCH EROSION [Ambush]
Your attack can weaken your foe’s resistance to magic.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +4d6, Knowledge (arcana) 1 rank.
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack gives the target a -3 penalty on saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and psionic powers, and a -5 penalty to its spell resistance and power resistance (minimum 0) per three sneak attack dice that you forfeit for 10 rounds.

HAMSTRING [Ambush]
You can wound your opponents' legs, hampering their movement.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: If you hit with a sneak attack, you may forfeit two dice of sneak attack to reduce one of your opponent’s speeds by half (such as flying, swimming, etc.). This speed reduction ends after 24 hours have passed or a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other magical healing is made. Creature that do not rely on limbs to move, or that have more than four locomotive limbs, can’t be slowed down with a hamstring attack. It takes two successful hamstring attacks to affect quadrupeds.
Special: Using this feat reduces your sneak attack damage by 2d6 per -2 penalty you choose to inflict.

HEAD SHOT [Ambush]
By striking at your opponent’s head, you can temporarily disrupt his thought processes.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6, Weapon Focus (any bludgeoning weapon).
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack with a bludgeoning weapon for which you have selected Weapon Focus leaves your foe confused for 1 round per sneak attack die you sacrifice. A successful Will save (DC 10 + the number of extra damage dice normally dealt by your sneak attack + your Dex modifier) reduces the duration to 1 round.
Special: You must be able to reach your foe’s head to use this feat with a melee attack.

MIND DRAIN [Ambush]
Your attack can weaken your opponent’s mental powers.
Prerequisite: Power point reserve, sneak attack +3d6.
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack drains power points from your target equal to its manifester level (minimum 1), and you gain the points drained. If this attack reduces your target to 0 power points, the opponent also loses any psionic focus. A target can only be affected by this feat once per round.
Special: Using this feat reduces your sneak attack damage by 2d6.

PERSISTENT ATTACKER [Ambush]
Once you find a target’s weak point, you can easily strike it again.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: If your sneak attack hits, your first attack against that creature on your next turn is also considered a sneak attack even if it wouldn’t normally qualify.
Special: Using this feat reduces your sneak attack damage by 1d6.

THROAT PUNCH [Ambush]
By making a precise punch to the throat, you can render a target unable to speak effectively.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack delivered with an unarmed strike temporarily hinders the target’s ability to speak. For the next 3 rounds per sneak attack die that you forfeited, the target takes a –5 penalty on any skill check requiring speech and has a 50% chance of failure when casting a spell with a verbal component or activating a magic item with a command word. A successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other magical healing will remove the condition.
Special: You must be able to reach your foe’s neck to use this feat. If you forfeit three sneak attack dice when using this feat, the target is voice is impaired permanently (although treatment as described above can still remove the condition).

Other Feats
Additional feats useful for this fighting style.
Note: This area needs more development. Suggestions are appreciated.

MERCIFUL STRIKE [General]
You can strike a creature’s vital areas without killing it.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack ability.
Benefit: Your successful sneak attack deals nonlethal damage. When using this feat, you can ignore the usual –4 penalty on attack rolls for attempting to deal nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon.

PRACTICED CUTTHROAT [Fighter, General]
Your sneak attack is especially deadly.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6 or greater.
Benefit: Your sneak attack improves by an additional +2d6. This benefit can't increase your number of sneak attack dice to greater than half your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice from levels of classes that don’t progress your sneak attack, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. To benefit from Practiced Cutthroat, you must have sneak attack of +2d6 or greater. If you lose it (for example, if you qualified through the Assassin Stance and you switch to a different stance), Practiced Cutthroat stops working and provides no benefit until you regain a sneak attack of +2d6 or greater.

VORPAL STRIKE [Ambush, Fighter, General]
If you catch your opponent off-guard, you can deliver a vicious decapitating strike.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack +7d6 or greater, Arterial Strike, Persistent Attacker, Staggering Strike, base attack bonus +16 or greater
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can deliver a vorpal strike against a foe whom you damaged with a sneak attack on the previous round. Your opponent takes 2d6 Constitution damage in addition to sneak attack damage and normal damage from the blow, and must make a Will save. On a failed save (DC = 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Dexterity modifier), the victim is stunned and nauseated for one round; on a successful save, the victim is merely nauseated. Regardless, the victim must also make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Dexterity modifier). On a failed save, the hapless fellow is also disabled and staggered; with a successful save, he is merely staggered. These latter conditions last until all the Constitution damage dealt by the vorpal strike has been healed. Naturally, the victim also receives a bleeding wound from your Arterial Strike.
Any victim slain outright by your vorpal strike is decapitated, and cannot be brought back to life with any magic that requires an intact corpse, such as raise dead.
Special: Creatures that are immune to precision damage (e.g. gelatinous cube), lack a definable head (e.g. shrieker), or who are not slain by the loss of all heads (e.g. ghost, iron golem), are not subject to a vorpal strike.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:24 AM
This alternate class feature replaces your weapon master fighting style with the disciplined fighting style. Use this fighter ACF as a replacement for the samurai classes from Complete Warrior, Oriental Adventures, and the Rokugan Sourcebook.


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/c36fb4a46326f0_full.gif

DISCIPLINED FIGHTING STYLE
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not learn the weapon master fighting style. As such, you lose access to the extra class skills, proficiencies, key skill bonuses, bonus feats, and other benefits that provided by that style.
Benefit: You gain the disciplined fighting style, which is described below.


As a fighter of the disciplined style, you embrace a strict, rigorous lifestyle. Learning to use your ki to perfect yourself and disrupt your enemy, you’re more concerned about the weapon you are than the weapons you wield.

A practitioner of the disciplined fighting style gains Ancestral Daisho and Combat Focus as bonus feats. Additionally, select any two of the following skills: Concentration, Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Spot. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. Your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level.


Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You also gain your choice of Kiai Smite or any [Combat Form] feat as a bonus feat.

At 5th level, you gain Staredown as a bonus feat.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You gain Mass Staredown as a bonus feat.

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the daring outlaw ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. You gain your Frightful Presence as a bonus feat.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. You gain your choice of Power Surge or Withstand as a bonus feat.


[STYLE] FEATS
These [Style] feats are meant for use with the disciplined fighting style.
ANCESTRAL DAISHO [Fighter, Style]
You possess a pair of extraordinary weapons whose illustrious history is matched only by the purity of their form. As your discipline grows, your weapons awaken and become potent magical items.
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Disciplined Combat Style
Benefit: All fighters of the disciplined style begin play with two masterwork weapons -- typically a katana and wakizashi (bastard sword and shortsword) or a katana and dai-kyu (composite longbow), although other weapons are possible. These are weapons that belonged to the fighter's ancestors, and protecting these weapons is the most important point of honor for a fighter of the disciplined style. As he acquires experience through adventuring, he has the option of awakening the supernatural abilities latent in the weapons.

At any time, the fighter may enter a period of intense meditation and prayer in order to awaken the ancestral spirits in one of his weapons. This requires the fighter to invest a bit of his own soul in the weapon, investing his own experience points as shown on the chart below. The character must spend one day in meditation per 40 xp spent, and must spend at least 8 hours per day contemplating the weapon, pausing neither to rest nor eat (the time and xp required are the same as for creating an equivalent magic item via the Craft Arms and Armor feat, but without the gold cost).

The values listed are the total cost required; if the character is merely upgrading an existing weapon, he pays the difference in cost.

If the fighter wishes to remove a power invested in his weapon (perhaps for the purpose of replacing it with a different ability) he may do so by meditating over the weapon for eight hours. The selected power is lost, and the experience invested to provide the power is refunded.



Maximum Weapon BonusMaximum GP ValueExperience SacrificeMinimum Character Level

+12,000804th

+28,0003207th

+318,0007209th

+432,0001,28011th

+550,0002,00013th

+6*72,0002,88014th

+7*98,0003,92015th

+8*128,0005,12016th

+9*162,0006,48017th

+10*200,0008,00018th

*A weapon can't actually have a bonus higher than +5, but can be granted special abilities that have a bonus-equivalent value.

A fighter who loses an ancestral weapon is shamed, and must attempt to recover them. If his ancestral weapons are destroyed, he may enchant other ancestral weapons of his family, provided they are available (this may require a quest or adventure to locate and acquire such weapons). He cannot enchant any other weapons in this way. Likewise, the magic invested in the weapons does not function for anyone except him or his close allies. The DM and player of the fighter should work together closely to ensure that this feat is neither abused (such as by the PC attempting to sell ancestral weapons for profit), nor made to a be a hindrance to the character (such as by the DM creating no-win scenarios in which the character's weapons are repeatedly lost, destroyed, or stolen despite his best efforts to safeguard them).

FRIGHTFUL PRESENCE [Fighter, Style]
Your mere presence on the battlefield can terrify your foes and send them fleeing for their lives.
Prerequisite: Fighter 13th, Disciplined Fighting Style
Benefit: The first time you draw your blade during an encounter, opponents within 60 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + your Charisma modifier) or become panicked for 1 minute (if they have fewer than half or your Hit Dice total) or shaken for 1 minute (if they have half or more of your Hit Dice total). Any foe that successfully resist the effect cannot be affected again by the same disciplined fighter's frightful presence for 24 hours.

KIAI SMITE [Fighter, Style]
You can give a great shout during combat that invigorates your attacks.
Prerequisite: Fighter 2nd, Disciplined Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per day as a free action, you can make a kiai shout. When you do so, your next attack in that same round is improved: you gain a bonus on the attack roll equal to your Charisma bonus and a bonus on the damage roll equal to your character level. Your kiai smite is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at fighter level 4th, and every four levels thereafter.

POWER SURGE [Fighter, Style]
Your strict battle discipline allows you to focus your ki to achieve superhuman feats of strength.
Prerequisites: Concentration 20 ranks, Fighter 17th, Disciplined Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain the ability to make Concentration check as a move action to focus your energy and spirit. You gain a competence bonus to Strength as shown on the chart below. The bonus lasts one minute. Each time after the first that you successfully use this ability in a single 24-hour period, the check DC increases by 5.


Check ResultBonus
50+6
60+8
70+10

STAREDOWN [Fighter, Style]
Even a glance from your hard-eyed gaze is enough to give opponents pause.
Prerequisite: Fighter level 5th, Disciplined Fighting Style
Benefit: You can use Intimidate to demoralize opponents as a move action, with a range of up to 30 feet.

STAREDOWN, MASS [Fighter, Style]
Your presence is sufficient to cow multiple foes.
Prerequisites: Fighter 9th, Staredown, Disciplined Fighting Style
Benefit: When you use Intimidate to demoralize, you can attempt to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet.

WITHSTAND [Fighter, Style]
Your strict battle discipline allows you to react with perfect focus when threatened by area damage effects.
Prerequites: Concentration 20 ranks, Fighter 17th, Disciplined Fighting Style
Benefit: When you are forced to make a Reflex save to avoid harm or inconvience from an area effect (such as freezing fog spell or a dragon's breath), you can make a Concentration check instead of a Reflex save; success allows you to ignore all harmful effects of the source (such as damage, status effects, penalties, movement restrictions, etc, but not impaired vision if the effect obscures vision).

[COMBAT FORM] FEATS
First introduced in Player's Handbook 2, [Combat Form] feats are a mainstay for most fighters of the disciplined fighting style. Feats reprinted from PH2 have been extensively reworked and improved; you’ll also find many new [Combat Form] feats here.
COMBAT ADJUSTMENT [Combat Form, Fighter]
You use your combat focus to ensure that you're never in the right place at the wrong time.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Combat Focus, Evasive Reflexes, Fighter level 2nd
Benefit: While maintaining your combat focus, you may take a 5-foot step as an immediate action. You are considered to have used your 5-foot step for the current turn, or for the next turn if it is not currently your turn. As normal for a 5-foot step, you can't move during for the remainder of this turn, or during your next turn if it is not currently your turn. If you use this ability to interrupt an attack aimed at you, the attack typically fails unless it is an area attack whose area includes your new location.
Expend: You may expend your combat focus as an immediate action to take a full move action.
Advancement: If you have three combat focus feats and base attack +6 or greater, using Combat Adjustment to take a 5-foot step does not count against your limit of one 5-foot step per turn.
If you have eight combat focus feats and base attack +12 or greater, using Combat Adjustment to take a 5-foot step does not restrict your ability to use your move actions to move.

COMBAT AWARENESS [Combat Form, Fighter]
When you maintain your combat focus, you have an uncanny ability to sense the ebb and flow of your opponent's vitality. As you attain greater mastery of this fighting style, you learn to sense a foe's presence even with your eyes closed.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Blind-Fight, Combat Focus, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: While maintaining your combat focus, you learn the current hit point total of each adjacent opponent and ally, and gain a competence bonus to Sense Motive checks equal to the number of Combat Form feats you possess.
Advancement: If you have three or more combat form feats, you gain blindsight out to 5 feet.
If you have eight or more combat form feats, your blindsight and awareness of hit point totals extends out to 30 feet, and you may reroll your miss chance once when attacking incorporeal creatures with melee or ranged weapons.

COMBAT DEFENSE [Combat Form, Fighter]
The state of keen focus and mental discipline you attain in combat allows you to ward away even glancing touches with careful, precise maneuvers.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Combat Focus, Dodge, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: While you maintain your combat focus, you add your armor bonus to Armor Class to your touch AC. You lose this bonus whenever you are denied your dodge bonus to AC.
Expend: On your turn as a free action, you can expend your combat focus to gain a 20% miss chance until the beginning of your next turn.
Advancement: If you have eight or more combat form feats, you gain 50% miss chance when expending your combat focus.

COMBAT DISCIPLINE [Combat Form, Fighter]
Your knowledge of arcana and your incredible martial discipline allows you to shrug off hostile magic.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Knowledge (arcana) 9, Spellcraft 9, Combat Focus, Mage Slayer, any one other Combat Form feat, base attack bonus +15 or greater.
Benefit: While you maintain your combat focus, you gain spell resistance equal to 10 + your character level.
Expend: You can expend your combat focus as an immediate action to negate the effects of any spell or spell-like ability aimed at you specifically. If the spell targets you and other creatures, the effect is negated only for you. This ability is not useful against area spells that happen to include you in their effect.
Advancement: If you have eight or more Combat Form feats, your spell resistance improves to 15 + your character level.

COMBAT FOCUS [Combat Form, Fighter]
The way of the warrior requires more than simple, brute strength. Some warriors bring their minds to such keen focus during the heat of battle that they can attain superhuman levels of endurance, perception, and mental toughness. Through intense mental exercise and training, you learn to enter a state of perfect martial clarity.
Prerequisite: Wis 13
Benefit: In battle, you push aside the chaos of the fight and attain a focused state that grants you a keen, clear picture of the battle. Fear and pain ebb away as you focus solely on defeating your enemy. The first time you make a successful attack during an encounter, you gain your combat focus. In this state, your mind and body become one, allowing you to overcome mundane physical limits. You can maintain your combat focus for 10 rounds after entering it, +1 additional round per combat form feat you possess aside from this one. You can only gain your combat focus once per encounter.
While you are maintaining your combat focus, you gain a +2 bonus on Will saves.
Expend: You can expend your combat focus whenever you roll a natural 1 on a Will save to instead treat the result as a natural 20. This does not require an action.
Advancement: If you have three or more combat form feats, your Will save bonus increases to +4.
If you also have fighter level 3rd and the Disciplined Fighting Style Class feature, you can gain your combat focus any number of times per encounter, but only once per round. The first time you make a successful attack during a round, you gain your combat focus.

COMBAT GUARDIAN [Combat Form, Fighter]
With strict vigilance and careful defensive maneuvers, you ward away attacks meant for your allies.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Expertise, Combat Focus, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: While you maintain your combat focus, you can choose at the beginning of each of your turns to waive the normal benefits of Combat Expertise and instead apply one-half the AC bonus from your Combat Expertise feat as a shield bonus for all allies within your reach. Allies must remain within your reach to continue receiving the bonus, and lose it if you become dazed, helpless, paralyzed, stunned, or otherwise unable to take actions, or if you expend your combat focus.
Expend: As an immediate action, you can expend your combat focus to parry an attack against an ally within your reach. Make an attack roll with a bonus equal to the number of Combat Form feats you have. Your ally may substitute your attack roll total for his AC against that attack if he desires.
Advancement: If you have at least three Combat Form feats, you do not need to waive the normal benefits of Combat Expertise in order to protect your allies.

COMBAT PSYCHIC [Combat Form, Fighter, Psionic]
Your natural psychic talent enhances your ability to focus your mind and body during combat.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Focus, Psionic Meditation, Concentration 7 ranks, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: While maintaining your combat focus, you gain a +2 bonus on Concentration checks made to regain your psionic focus. If you have not previously gained your combat focus during this combat round, you can expend your psionic focus to gain your combat focus. This does not require an action.
Expend: If you have not previously gained your psionic focus this round, you can expend your combat focus as a swift action to become psionically focused. Once you do so, you cannot regain your combat focus or psionic focus again until the beginning of your next turn.
Advancement: If you have at least three Combat Form feats, you instead gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks made to regain your psionic focus.

COMBAT SPEED [Combat Form, Fighter]
With intense focus, you time your movement and attacks to maximize your momentum, bouncing from target to target with tremendous speed.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Focus, and either Flyby Attack, Swim-by Attack, or Spring Attack.
Benefit: Whenever you use Flyby Attack, Swim-by Attack, or Spring Attack while you are maintaining your combat focus, you gain a +10 bonus to your speed for each combat form feat you have, up to a maximum of your current speed.
Expend: You can expend your combat focus as a swift action to move up to your speed. You do not gain the Combat Speed bonus to your speed for this movement, since you have already expended your combat focus.

COMBAT STABILITY [Combat Form, Fighter]
When you maintain your combat focus, you become difficult to dislodge. Your muscles lock into an unyielding position, granting you superior ability to resist trip attacks, bull rushes, disarms, and similar effects.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Focus, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: While you maintain your combat focus, you gain a +4 bonus on checks or rolls to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempts made against you.
Advancement: If you have three or more combat form feats, the bonus granted by this feat increases to +8.
If you have eight or more combat form feats, the bonus granted increases to +12.

COMBAT STRIKE [Combat Form, Fighter]
Your intense, focused state allows you to see the smallest of errors in the forms and styles of others. You automatically adjust your form to correct for your own errors, or, by pouring the energy required to maintain your combat focus into your assault, you batter through your foe's defenses.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Focus, any two other combat form feats, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: As a swift action, you can expend your combat focus to gain a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to your total number of combat form feats for the rest of your current turn. You immediately lose all benefits of combat form feats that affect you only while you are maintaining your combat focus.

COMBAT TEMPO [Combat Form, Fighter]
When your enemy seems to have outlasted you and countered all of your tricks and techniques, you can call on reserves of strength within yourself and pull off a few more surprises.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Focus, Martial Study, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: If you have a refresh method for your martial maneuvers, you can activate your refresh method to gain your combat focus, although you do not refresh any maneuvers when you do this. Refresh methods granted by feats (such as Adaptive Style, Combat Tempo, Psychic Renewal, or Sudden Recovery) cannot be used for this purpose. You can gain your combat focus a maximum of once per round.
Expend: You can expend your combat focus as a swift action to refresh a martial maneuver, even if your maneuvers do not normally possess a refresh mechanic (this maneuver is immediately granted, if applicable).
Advancement: If you have at least 3 combat form feats, you can expend your combat focus as a standard action to refresh all of your maneuvers, even if your maneuvers do not normally possess a refresh mechanic (you receive new granted maneuvers, if applicable).
If you have at least 8 combat form feats, you can expend your combat focus as a full-round action to refresh and reselect all of your maneuvers, even if your maneuvers do not normally possess a refresh mechanic (you receive new granted maneuvers, if applicable).

COMBAT VIGOR [Combat Form, Fighter]
When you maintain your combat focus, your clarity of purpose and relentless drive allow you to overcome your body's frailties. Minor wounds heal in a matter of seconds, and you quickly recover from even a grievous blow.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Combat Focus, base attack bonus +9
Benefit: While you maintain your combat focus, you gain fast healing equal to the number of Combat Form feats you have, including this one. You lose this benefit when your combat focus ends.

GOD OF WAR [Combat Form, Fighter]
When you enter your combat focus, you become a relentless, flawless killing machine.
Prerequisites: Combat Focus, six other Combat Form feats, Fighter level 18th
Benefit: While maintaining your combat focus, you roll twice and take the better result on all attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Expend: You may expend your combat focus when making a critical confirmation roll or saving throw to treat the roll as a natural 20. This does not require an action.
Special: Expending your focus as described above is tiring. You may not regain your focus until the beginning of your next turn, even if you normally could regain your focus sooner.

STEP BETWEEN HEARTBEATS [Combat Form, Fighter]
In a flash, you draw your blade and spring across the battlefield, leaving a line of hacked and mangled victims in your wake.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Jump 12 ranks, Base attack bonus +9 or greater, Combat Focus, Combat Speed, and either Flyby Attack, Spring Attack, or Swim-by Attack
Benefit: As a full-round action, expend your Combat Focus to move up to double your speed in a straight line. You move without provoking attacks of opportunity, bounding and leaping across whatever surfaces are available without regard to whether they would normally support your weight, or simply soaring unsupported if no surfaces are available. You may move through spaces occupied by your opponents, although you may not end your movement in such a space. You cannot pass through obstacles that would normally bar your passage, and you take damage appropriately if you pass through a hazardous environment (e.g. a blade barrier or a burning building). If you wish, you may draw a weapon as part of this movement, just as you are entitled to do when moving normally.
Special: Using Step Between Heartbeats is strenuous. Once you expend your Combat Focus to use this ability, you cannot regain it until the beginning of your next turn, even if you could normally regain it sooner.
Advancement: If you have Jump 18 ranks and base attack bonus +15 or greater, you may make a single attack at your highest base attack bonus against each foe whose space you pass through. Enemies are flat-footed against these attacks if you did not threaten them before beginning the action. If you are attacking with a weapon drawn as part of this movement, you are entitled to use Iaijutsu Focus against each flat-footed opponent.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:26 AM
This alternate class feature replaces your weapon master fighting style with the watchful fighting style. A watchful fighter might be the captain of the watch, a mercenary bodyguard, or a member of an elite order dedicated to defeating a clan of assassins or a cabal of illusionists. Watchful fighters are strong defenders who excel at quickly noticing and responding to threats, and are very effective at forcing the enemy to deal with them first.


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/47717_the_white_knight_01.jpg

WATCHFUL FIGHTING STYLE
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not learn the weapon master fighting style. As such, you lose access to the extra class skills, proficiencies, key skill bonuses, bonus feats, and other benefits that provided by that style.
Benefit: You gain the watchful fighting style, which is described below.

The elite bodyguard, the tireless sentry, the seasoned master of the city watch, all are fighters who practice the watchful fighting style. The watchful fighting style focuses on protecting others through alertness and defensive techniques.

A fighter of the watchful style gains Defensive Stance as a bonus feat. Additionally, select any two of the following skills: Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. They permanently become fighter class skills for you if you do not have them already, and your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level.


Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You also gain Uncanny Dodge as a bonus feat.

At 5th level, you gain Improved Uncanny Dodge as a bonus feat.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You gain light fortification. This stacks with fortification from other sources.

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the daring outlaw ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. You gain Stable Stance as a bonus feat.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. You gain medium fortification. This stacks with fortification from other sources.

[STYLE] FEATS
These feats are meant for use with the watchful fighting style.
ARMORED MENACE [Fighter]
You can use your armor and shield to make yourself an obstacle on the battlefield.
Prerequisites: Fighter 2nd, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: While wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield, you can choose to adopt an imposing posture as a swift action. While in your imposing posture, you occupy the space of a creature one size larger than you (although you acquire none of the other benefits or drawbacks of being larger), and opponents cannot make overrun attempts against you or attempt to tumble through squares you occupy. You can dismiss your imposing posture as a free action.
Advancement: If you have base attack +11 or greater, then while in your imposing posture, you may consider yourself one size larger than normal whenever it would be advantageous to do so.

CARELESS RAGE [Fighter, Style]
You know how to exploit the openings offered by an angry opponent.
Prerequisites: Fighter 12th, Infuriating Strike, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: Whenever an infuriated opponent (that is, an opponent affected by your challenging gaze or infuriating strike) attacks you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you after completing the attack (regardless of whether the attack was a hit or a miss).

CHALLENGING GAZE [Fighter, Style]
When the lust for battle is in your eyes, foes find themselves eager to cross blades with you.
Prerequisites: Fighter 8th, Infuriating Strike
Benefit: You gain a gaze attack with a range of 30 feet, which you can activate or deactivate as a swift action. Gaze attacks are described in more detail on DMG p.294. Foes meeting your gaze must save or be infuriated as per the Infuriating Strike feat (Will negates, DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + Charisma modifier). If you use your gaze in a non-combat situation, such as during tense negotiations or at a state dinner, targets will still be affected, but may choose to confront you in a non-violent manner, such as shouting vigorous insults at you. It will be obvious to all observers that you provoked the confrontation; you cannot use challenging gaze in a subtle fashion. Challenging gaze is a mind-affecting extraordinary ability, even though gaze attacks are normally supernatural.
Advancement: If you have the Ghost Scarred feat (LM 27), then incorporeal undead are not protected from your challenging gaze by their normal immunity to mind-affecting effects.
If you have the Vampire Hunter feat (LM 31), then vampires and vampire spawn are not protected from your challenging gaze by their normal immunity to mind-affecting effects.

DANGER SENSE [Fighter, Style]
You are always see trouble coming before it arrives.
Prerequisite: Fighter 16th, Blind Fight, Sixth Sense, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: You are immune to surprise.
Advancement: If you have Superior Sixth Sense, you gain a surprise round when combat starts regardless of whether you have been noticed. A creature that notices you is still treated as flat-footed during this round.

DEFENSIVE STANCE [Fighter, Style]
You can assume a highly effective defensive stance a certain number of times per day.
Prerequisites: Fighter 1st, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per encounter when you declare you are fighting defensively or taking the total defense action, you may enter a defensive stance (this does not require an action). For as long as you continue to fight defensively or take the total defense action, you gain +6 Strength, +4 Constitution, a +2 competence bonus on all saves, and a +2 competence bonus to Armor Class. While in your defensive stance, you must fight defensively or take total defense every round (which means you cannot run, charge, or take a double move), and you cannot perform any actions other than movement that might provoke an attack of opportunity (such as spellcasting, drinking a potion, attempting a bull rush or overrun, etc). You also cannot use Power Attack or any item creation or metamagic feats.
Your defensive stance lasts five minutes, unless you choose to end it sooner. If you fail to fight defensively or take full defense in a round, your defensive stance also ends. At the end of your defensive stance, you are winded: for five minutes you take a -2 penalty to Strength and cannot activate defensive stance again. Your defensive stance is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at fighter level 4th, and every four levels thereafter.
Advancement: If you have character level 11 or higher, your defensive stance instead grants you +8 Strength, +6 Constitution, and a +3 competence bonus to all saves and to your AC.
If you have character level 20 or higher, your defensive stance instead grants you +10 Strength, +8 Constitution, and a +4 competence bonus to all saves and to your AC.

HAMPERING STRIKE [Fighter, Style]
Your strikes hamper your foes and put them on the defensive.
Prerequisite: Fighter 4th, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: As a swift action, you can declare the next attack you make this round to be a hampering strike. When you make a hampering strike with a weapon you are wielding (or with an unarmed strike or natural weapon), your opponent is hampered and distracted by your efforts, taking a -2 penalty on attack rolls and save DCs against all of its opponents other than you. Against you, it takes a -2 penalty to its AC and saving throws. This effect lasts for three rounds.
Advancement: If you have base attack +6 or greater and deliver a hampering strike to an opponent you have already hampered, the duration of the hampering is reset and the penalties stack, up to a maximum of -4.
If you have base attack +11 or greater, the maximum penalty stacking increases to -6.
If you have base attack +16 or greater, the maximum penalty stacking increases to -8.
If you have the Countering Strike class feature, you do not need to expend a swift action to declare your countering strike to be a hampering strike.

HEALTHY SKEPTICISM [Fighter, Style]
You tend not to believe what you see.
Prerequisites: Fighter 1st, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain an automatic Will saving throw against any illusion that allows a save. As long as you see, hear, smell, or otherwise experience the illusion with any of your senses, you are entitled a saving throw. If you fail this saving throw, you may gain a second one when you fully interact with the illusion, as normal. You are not necessarily even aware that you are making a save unless you succeed; the roll should be made in secret by the DM.

HEALTHY SKEPTICISM, IMPROVED [Fighter, Style]
You are almost impossible to fool with illusions.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Fighter 9th, Blind Fight, Healthy Skepticism, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain an automatic Will saving throw against all illusion effects of the [figment] and [glamer] subschools, regardless of whether you would normally be entitled to a saving throw. On a successful save, you determine the illusionary nature of the effect. This allows you to ignore the effects of spells such as displacement, mirror image, invisibility, etc..

INFURIATING STRIKE [Fighter, Style]
Your strikes infuriate your foes into taking aggressive action against you.
Prerequisite: Fighter 4th, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: As a swift action, you can declare the next attack you make this round to be an infuriating strike. When you make an infuriating strike with a weapon you are wielding (or with an unarmed strike or natural weapon), your opponent must attempt a Will save (DC = 10 + damage dealt). On a success, nothing happens, but if the victim fails, it becomes infuriated and must make you the target of its hostilities, to the exclusion of other activities such as attacking your allies or attempting to escape.

Your opponent can take any aggressive action it deems appropriate, such as attacking you with ranged or melee weapons, targeting you with spells, or even including you in the area of effect of area spells. The victim remains cognizant of his surroundings and reacts appropriately, although he will take risks to harm you. The subject will not take suicidal actions in order to harm you, such as leaping off a cliff to certain death in order to reach you, but might attempt to leap a narrow chasm if he reasonably believed he could make the jump.

Your opponent gains +4 on attack and damage rolls against you while infuriated, and gains +4 save DC and +4 on rolls to penetrate your spell resistance when using hostile effects on you. However, if the opponent fails his save against your infuriating strike by 10 points or more, the bonuses are reduced to +2. If the opponent fails his save by 20 points or more, the bonuses are negated.

Your target remains infuriated for 3 rounds. If you use the withdraw action to move away from the target, or take some action to break line of sight with the target (such as teleporting out of sight, becoming invisible, or hiding behind total cover), then the effect ends immediately. The calm emotions spell and similar magics can be used to release an infuriated target from the effect. Infuriating strike is a mind-affecting extraordinary ability.

Advancement: If you have the Ghost Scarred feat (LM 27), then incorporeal undead are not protected from your infuriating strike by their normal immunity to mind-affecting effects.
If you have the Vampire Hunter feat (LM 31), then vampires and vampire spawn are not protected from your infuriating strike by their normal immunity to mind-affecting effects.
If you have the Countering Strike class feature, you do not need to expend a swift action to declare your countering strike to be an infuriating strike.

LOCKED IN COMBAT [Fighter, Style]
You really know how to lock down an opponent.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Fighter 12, Hampering Strike, Stand Still, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: While an adjacent opponent is suffering a penalty from your hampering strike, that opponent may not take a 5-foot step or use the Withdraw action, and automatically provokes an attack of opportunity from you if it uses any ability from the Conjuration (teleportation) subschool. Opponents suffering these restrictions are aware of them. Your presence is also extremely distracting; when you hamper any foe, he applies your hampering strike penalty to Spellcraft checks made to identify spells cast by all opponents other than you, and to all Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks made against opponents other than you.

PRESS THE ATTACK [Fighter, Style, Tactical]
You can limit your opponent's options in combat.
Prerequisites: Fighter 8th, Hampering Strike, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: The Press The Attack tactical feat enables the use of four tactical options. Each of these options is used when you hit your opponent with a hampering strike.

Cripple the Stride: When you use a hampering strike to inflict a total penalty of -2 or more on an opponent, all penalties are removed and all of the opponent's speeds are reduced by 5 x the penalty removed. This loss of speed lasts for one minute.
Grant Them No Rest: When you use a hampering strike to inflict a total penalty of -4 or more on an opponent, all penalties are removed and the opponent is fatigued.
Staggering Blow: When you use a hampering strike to inflict a total penalty of -6 or more on an opponent, all penalties are removed and the opponent is staggered for three rounds.
Stunning Blow: When you use a hampering strike to inflict a total penalty of -8 on an opponent, all penalties are removed and the opponent is nauseated for three rounds.

RED TIDES OF WAR [Fighter, Style, Tactical]
When your allies are hard-pressed, your words of inspiration lead them through adversity.
Prerequisites: Fighter 8th, Combat Aura (hardy soldiers or motivate ardor), Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: The Red Tides of War tactical feat enables the use of two tactical options. Each option enhances the effect of one of your combat auras. You don’t receive the benefit of the option unless you have the appropriate combat aura active.

Stand Against the Storm: As a move action when you or one of your allies within your hardy soldiers aura sustained physical or energy damage on the previous round, you rally your allies to stand firm against further harm. Until the beginning of your next turn, each time you or an ally within your aura sustains physical or energy damage, the aura’s strength increases by +100%.
Let the Red Tides Run: As a move action when you or one of your allies within your motivate ardor aura dealt damage on the previous round but the damage was reduced (for example, by damage reduction), you rally your allies to press the attack all the more fiercely. Until the beginning of your next turn, each time you or an ally within your aura deals damage and the damage is reduced, the aura’s strength increases by +100%. You can’t claim the benefit if the damage is reduced by an allied effect (for example, if your ally has a Strength penalty to damage).

REFLECTIONS ON THE BLADE [Fighter, Style]
You are skilled at fighting an opponent without directly looking at him.
Prerequisite: Fighter 2nd, Blind-Fight, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: When you avert your eyes from a creature with a gaze attack, you have no chance of accidently meeting its gaze. Creatures do not gain concealment from you when you are averting your gaze.
Advancement: If you have blindsense, you suffer no miss chance against creatures with concealment, and only a 20% miss chance against creatures that have total concealment from you.

SIXTH SENSE [Fighter, Style]
Sometimes, you just know where the enemy is.
Prerequisites: Fighter 3, Wisdom 13+, Blind Fight, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain blindsense with a range of 5 feet for every 3 character levels you possess (10 ft at 6th level, 15 feet at 9th level, etc.) This blindsense is not based on any of your existing senses and cannot be nullified by silence or similar effects.

SIXTH SENSE, SUPERIOR [Fighter, Style]
You have an uncanny awareness of what's going on around you.
Prerequisites: Fighter 9, Blind Fight, Sixth Sense, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: Your blindsense ability increases in power, doubling its range. You also gain blindsight within a range of 5 feet for every 5 character levels. Like your blindsense, your blindsight cannot be nullified by silence or other effects.

STABLE STANCE [Fighter, Style]
Your defensive stance enhances your stability.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 12th, Defensive Stance, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: You gain the Stability feature while in a defensive stance, which grants you a +4 bonus to resist bull rush and trip attempts due to your exceptional stability. If you already have the Stability feature (such as a dwarf would, for example), you gain Exceptional Stability, and your bonus increases to +8.

UNCANNY DODGE [Fighter, General, Style]
You react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so.
Prerequisites: Fighter 2nd and Barbaric or Watchful Fighting Style, Daring Outlaw 4th, or Swift Hunter 2nd
Benefit: You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, you still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

UNCANNY DODGE, IMPROVED [Fighter, General, Style]
You can react to opponents on opposite sides of you as easily as you can react to a single attacker.
Prerequistes: Fighter 5th and Barbaric or Watchful Fighting Style, or Daring Outlaw 8th, Uncanny Dodge
Benefit: You cannot be flanked except by a daring outlaw whose character level is 4 or more levels higher than your character level.

VIGILANT GUARDIAN [Fighter, Watchful Fighting Style]
When your allies are hard-pressed, you spring to their defense.
Prerequisites: Fighter 16th, Blind Fight, Danger Sense, Sixth Sense, Combat Aura class feature, Countering Strike Class feature, Watchful Fighting Style
Benefit: As an immediate action when an opponent has just resolved an attack against an ally within the radius of your combat aura, you may move up to your speed and execute a countering strike against that opponent.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:28 AM
This alternate class feature replaces your weapon master fighting style with the witch hunter fighting style.


http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Fighter/from_whence_you_came____by_salamandros.jpg

WITCH HUNTER FIGHTING STYLE
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain Knowledge (architecture and engineering) as a class skill or proficiency with heavy armor, nor do you learn the weapon master fighting style. As such, you lose access to the extra class skills, proficiencies, key skill bonuses, bonus feats, and other benefits that provided by that style.
Benefit: You gain the witch hunter fighting style, which is described below.


The dragon slayer, the demon hunter, the inquisitor, all are fighters who practice the witch hunter fighting style. The witch hunter fighting style focuses on defeating and circumventing the defenses commonly used by spellcasters.

A fighter of the witch hunter style gains Gather Information, Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft as class skills. You also gain Athletic Surge as a bonus feat, and you gain 2 additional skill points at each level. Additionally, select any two of the following skills: Balance, Climb, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Tumble. These skills are the key skills of your fighting style. They permanently become fighter class skills for you if you do not have them already, and your fighting style grants you additional benefits when using them as you advance in level. Finally, the Urban Tracking feat is considered a fighter bonus feat for you.

Beginning at 2nd level, you become more proficient in using the key skills associated with your fighting style. You gain a +2 competence bonus in the use of these skills. You also gain Mage Slayer as a bonus feat, ignoring prerequisites.

At 5th level, you gain your choice of Acrobatic Charge or Witch Hunter as a bonus feat.

At 9th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +5. You gain Mettle as a bonus feat.

At 13th level, you gain Skill Mastery (as the daring outlaw ability) in the key skills of your fighting style. You gain Physical Adept as a bonus feat.

At 17th level, the competence bonus granted by your fighting style increases to +10. You gain Tireless Surge as a bonus feat.

NEW FIGHTER BONUS FEATS
These [Fighter] feats are especially useful to witch hunter fighters.
ACROBATIC CHARGE [Fighter, General]
You can charge in situations where others cannot.
Prerequisite: Character level 5th
Benefit: You can charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or through allies blocking your path. This ability enables you to charge across a cluttered battlefield, leap down from a ledge, or swing across a chasm to get to your target. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks (such as Balance, Jump, or Tumble checks) to successfully move over the terrain.
Advancement: If you have the Mobile Combatant class feature, you can make a full attack at the end of your charge.

[STYLE] FEATS
ATHLETIC SURGE [Fighter, Style]
You can push your athletic capabilities to their utmost a certain number of times per day.
Prerequisites: Fighter 1st, Witch Hunter Fighting Style
Benefit: Once per encounter as an immediate action, you may enter an adrenaline-fueled state of athletic prowess (you can do this even when flat-footed at the start of combat, before making an initiative check). You gain a +5 competence bonus to Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and ability checks (including initiative checks), and your existing competence bonus to any Strength- or Dexterity-based key skills increases by +5. Additionally, you suffer no penalty for accelerated movement when using Balance, Climb, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble. Finally, if you are wearing light or no armor, you may stand from prone as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

While your athletic surge lasts, you cannot use any Charisma- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate and Spellcraft), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can you cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger, or a spell completion to function. You also cannot use any item creation or metamagic feats.

Athletic surge lasts for five minutes, unless you choose to end it sooner. When you end your surge, you are fatigued for five minutes. Your athletic surge is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at fighter 4th, and every four levels thereafter.

Advancement: If you have character level 11 or higher, your athletic surge instead grants you a +10 competence bonus to Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and ability checks, and your existing competence bonus to any Strength- or Dexterity-based key skills increases by +10.

If you have character level 20 or higher, your athletic surge instead grants you a +15 competence bonus to Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and ability checks, and your existing competence bonus to any Strength- or Dexterity-based key skills increases by +15.

PHYSICAL ADEPT [Fighter, Style]
You are amazingly mobile during your athletic surge.
Prerequisites: Fighter 13th, Witch Hunter Fighting Style
Benefit: During your athletic surge, you gain a +4 bonus on saving throws and grapple checks against any effect that might render you entangled, grappled, or immobilized (e.g web, hold person, or a dragon's crush attack).
Advancement: If you have character level 17th or higher, the bonus is +8 instead.

TIRELESS SURGE[Fighter, Style]
Your athletic surge does not fatigue you.
Prerequisite: Fighter 17th, Athletic Surge, Witch Hunter Fighting Style
Benefit: You are not fatigued when you end your athletic surge.

WITCH HUNTER [Fighter, Style]
You are highly sensitive to the presence of magic.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 8 ranks, Witch Hunter Fighting Style
Benefit: This feat grants three new uses for the Spellcraft skill.
Spell sense: You can sense magic auras when you concentrate, just as with a detect magic spell. Your spell sense has a range of 120 feet, and manifests as a feeling of discomfort or "pins and needles" when you are in the presence of magic. If you concentrate on a specific creature, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use. The DC of this check is 5 + the caster level of the target.
Draw back the veil: When you successfully identify a spell or magical effect, you also discern its magical signature. This allows you to recognize who cast the spell, if you have previously observed the caster with your spell sense, or to recognize that the signature is familiar to you, if you have previously observed other effects with this magical signature. All spellcasters have distinctive, recognizable magical signatures, although certain spells can obscure a signature (see below).
Teleport trace: When observing the square in which a Conjuration (teleportation) effect was cast, you can determine the intended destination of the effect. The DC of this check is 15 + spell level if you observed the casting or activation of the effect, or 20 + spell level if you did not. If the destination was no more than 1,000 feet away, you gain an accurate mental picture of the destination and know its exact direction and distance. If it is further away, or on another plane, you learn the name of the destination (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and its plane of existence. If the effect is not always accurate (as is the case with teleport and plane shift, for example), then you learn the intended destination, not the actual destination. If the effect leads to a variable destination, you learn the last destination to which it led. The trace of magical energy left behind by a Conjuration (teleportation) effect only remains readable for 1 round per level of the effect. If you perform your examination after this time period has elapsed, then you discern nothing about the intended destination.

Effects that would confuse, defeat, or mislead divination spells will have the same effect on your sensitivity to magic. If your sense is being blocked or misled by an effect that allows a saving throw, you receive one as normal. If the effect allows a caster level check, use your Spellcraft check result in place of the caster level check.

Weimann
2011-04-12, 07:01 AM
If I knew the least bit about D&D, I bet I would love this. It looks like it has a lot of work put into it, and I approve of the little snippets of design clarifications. You seem to have taken time to consider the thematics of what a fighter is and what he should be, and I think it shows.

Nitpick: The description for Third Style says you get it at level 9, just like Second Style.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-12, 07:08 AM
I like you, for reasons that my sig should make obvious. The fighting-man shall rise again.

Kredine
2011-04-12, 09:53 AM
Fighters shouldn't have d12 hit die. That is a right that should be reserved for the barbarian. Fighters represent skill and finesse where barbarians represent brute strength and the hit die reflects that.

Sarco_Phage
2011-04-12, 09:58 AM
Fighters shouldn't have d12 hit die. That is a right that should be reserved for the barbarian. Fighters represent skill and finesse where barbarians represent brute strength and the hit die reflects that.

What, you mean the Fighter who gets the same approximate amount of skill points a fish would?

Or the Fighter whose typical primary stat is STR, wielding a greatsword which is simply the best weapon it is feasible for him to wield except perhaps the spiked chain?

Skill and Finesse went to the Rogue and Ranger. Fighting-men got the job of standing there and battering things into submission. To death.

You can MAKE them about skill and finesse, but it's not their base state.

John Cribati
2011-04-12, 10:33 AM
What Sarco Said, plus the fact that this specific fighter is designed to replace several other classes, including the barbarian.

Ziegander
2011-04-12, 11:27 AM
This is just a small thing, but it's been bugging me. When you mention that certain skills are "key skills" for your Fighting style, what the heck does that mean, if anything?

Seerow
2011-04-12, 11:35 AM
This is just a small thing, but it's been bugging me. When you mention that certain skills are "key skills" for your Fighting style, what the heck does that mean, if anything?

The higher level versions of the styles give bonuses to all key skills. For example, a Barbarian has Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, and Survival as their key skills. By level 17, they have +20 to those 4 skills, and can take 20 on them without increasing time.



What's stumping me is how does the extra style work? It says that you can only take feats as if they are X levels lower, but how does that apply to the style itself?

For example, say at level one you have Weapon Master Style. At level 9 you pick up second style, say Commanding.

Now you would qualify for feats as a 1st level Commanding Fighter, that much is clear. But what about the second style itself? Do you get the benefits of Style 1 (ie just commanding aura and some class skills), or do you get Commanding Style IV?

Which of these it is impacts hugely how effective this class will be.

Ziegander
2011-04-12, 11:49 AM
The higher level versions of the styles give bonuses to all key skills. For example, a Barbarian has Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, and Survival as their key skills. By level 17, they have +20 to those 4 skills, and can take 20 on them without increasing time.

Ah, I see now, thank you. I don't know if it was the edit that came after I last looked at the entries, or if it was there all along and I just failed to see it, but thanks for clearing that up.


Now you would qualify for feats as a 1st level Commanding Fighter, that much is clear. But what about the second style itself? Do you get the benefits of Style 1 (ie just commanding aura and some class skills), or do you get Commanding Style IV?

Which of these it is impacts hugely how effective this class will be.

Indeed, this also bothered me.

There's a lot to like here though Jiriku, so kudos, especially for a first draft.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 01:28 PM
Thank you! I am hoping that the final product will be even better. To address your question, Seerow, Second Style and Third Style grant neither benefit, but merely allow a fighter to meet prerequisites. This will make more sense once I have finished the subsequent entries for each fighting style (I'll try to get at least one complete tonight so you'll have an idea of what the others will look like).

By way of example, suppose you want to play a fighter with rage and pounce. You can simply dip barbarian and play bar 1 / fighter x. Under these rules, however, you would be a weapon master fighter x, with no option to multi-class. The revised fighter accesses rage and pounce as bonus feats, and they both have "Prerequisite: barbaric fighter 1st level or greater". With Second Style, you can declare the barbaric style as your secondary style, and now you can access either of those feats as if they had "Prerequisite: weapon master fighter 9th" instead. I probably need to rewrite the abilities to make that more clear, and provide a couple of examples.

Seerow
2011-04-12, 01:45 PM
Okay so we're getting a fighter who has his one trick, and starting at level 8 he can start picking up first level tricks again... and starting at level 17 he can start picking up first level tricks again...


How exactly is this any different from the current fighter?


Sure you made the numbers bigger, and he attacks more.... but it's still got the same core underlying problems: The fighter doesn't get to do cool things. He full attacks, and he's done. The full attacking as a standard action is nice and all, but I mean the Barbarian (which you replaced) could do a pounce attack starting at level 1...

The immediate interrupt attack twice a round is the only cool thing I see here, and even that is just more attacking. True Grit is kind of nice though I suppose.

SPoD
2011-04-12, 02:37 PM
I think we should wait and see what those new special feats look like before getting too concerned. If the Watchful fighter gets feats that mimic True Seeing and that sort of thing, then this fighter could definitely have more tricks than just full attack.

However, I would like to point out something about the "Weather the Storm" aura. Getting "resist sonic 3" at 10th level is, frankly, horribly weak. A lesser aasimar or tiefling gets permanent resist 5 to three energy types as a first level character. A cleric can cast resist energy for 10 points at 3rd. I would say either increase it to five times the aura bonus, like the dragon shaman has (i.e. resist sonic 15 at 10th level), or triple it and let it apply to ALL energies simultaneously (i.e. resist all 9 at 10th level). Or just drop it, because no one is ever going to use the aura as written instead of the bonus to saving throws.

jiriku
2011-04-12, 11:27 PM
Posted a general discussion of class-building concepts for the fighter remix in general. It's not high-op advice, but should serve as a starting point for people who are wondering what it all means.

Also posted details for the barbaric, cavalry, and commanding fighters.

@ Seerow: The proof of the pudding will indeed be with the feats. I'm attempting to do several things to address the "few/crappy tricks" issue.

Feats that scale. More of this will come later, as I post and link to some additional threads with remixed versions of core feats. Scaling feats means you need only spend one or two feats to learn a good trick, rather than 3-5. Thus, you have ten tricks instead of two.
Expanded Martial Aptitude. Full retraining of all fighter bonus feats means that you can swap the ten tricks you know today for ten different tricks tomorrow.
More high-power feats with stiff prerequisites for higher-level play. This corrects the issue in which the 20th-level fighter merely has several tricks that are more suitable for 10th-level characters.
Feats that sometimes scale according to character level, rather than class levels. This means that a high-level fighter who takes a "low-level" feat from a different style can immediately unlock all the juicy advancement abilities associated with the feat.

Some of this is fully implemented, and I'm just a few copy/pastas away from being able to show it to you. Some of it exists just as theory and design principles for now, and will be developed over the next couple weeks.

@ SPoD: Sheer genius. This is why I'm posting to the Playground. I would never have thought of that, but now that you mention it, it seems obvious. How would you implement that? Granting blindsense would automatically defeat illusions and invisibilty, and fits the theme. Plus, it's useful for other things. Or perhaps the fighter could automatically be entitled to a save against any illusion he sees, as if he had interacted with it merely by observing it.

Weather the Storm is modeled on the DR feature. I see your point though, and have modified it to cover all elements at once. I'm beginning to see that there are some balance issues in the various auras; shame on me for assuming that the class option I ripped it from would be internally balanced. :smalltongue:

Kellus
2011-04-13, 12:34 AM
This is really really good, but I have some concerns about the Cavalry option (which, since I love mounted combat, is what I looked at first). Basically, I'm not clear on why the cavalry fighter can't have as nice a horse as a druid gets. Wild Cohort lets you get the same pets three levels later than the druid, and when they do get them they have worse stat boosts. Would it really be so horrible to just flat out give them an animal companion?

Also, I'm not entirely clear on how the cavalry fighter is supposed to fight from the back of a dragon, as you describe it. Please show me the rules here for getting a dragon mount.

EDIT: As a side-note, True Grit is one of the best mechanics I have ever seen.

Ziegander
2011-04-13, 12:57 AM
How would you implement that? Granting blindsense would automatically defeat illusions and invisibilty, and fits the theme. Plus, it's useful for other things. Or perhaps the fighter could automatically be entitled to a save against any illusion he sees, as if he had interacted with it merely by observing it.

Oh, I can think of a couple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10640928#post10640928) ways (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2982).


Weather the Storm is modeled on the DR feature. I see your point though, and have modified it to cover all elements at once. I'm beginning to see that there are some balance issues in the various auras; shame on me for assuming that the class option I ripped it from would be internally balanced. :smalltongue:

Well, keep in mind that DR 1/-- or DR 2/-- is roughly comparable in terms of useful defenses to Energy Resistance 5 to all elements. So, SPoD has a great point.

Question: Can a player use two uses of True Grit in the same turn in order to become unaffected by just about any condition, for example, going from Exhausted to Fatigued, to Unaffected? The ability doesn't specify any required action, so I assume yes. Can a player use True Grit when it isn't his turn?

SPoD
2011-04-13, 09:17 AM
@ SPoD: Sheer genius. This is why I'm posting to the Playground. I would never have thought of that, but now that you mention it, it seems obvious. How would you implement that? Granting blindsense would automatically defeat illusions and invisibilty, and fits the theme. Plus, it's useful for other things. Or perhaps the fighter could automatically be entitled to a save against any illusion he sees, as if he had interacted with it merely by observing it.

Personally, I would make it one feat that grants blindsense, with a second feat that increases it to blindsight. The illusion thing could still be a third feat, though, because blindsight usually has a limited range (30 ft.) and the illusion trick could affect things you see at a longer distance. Also, I've had DMs who ruled that illusions can fool blindsight if they affect the sense that the blindsight uses (so, auditory-enabled illusions can defeat echolocation blingsight), so anyone in that situation would still have a use for the illusion one. So you'd have something like this:

Sixth Sense
Sometimes, you just know where the enemy is.
Prerequisites: watchful fighter 3, Wisdom 13+
Benefit: You gain blindsense with a range of 5 feet for every 3 character levels you possess (10 ft at 6th level, 15 feet at 9th level, etc.) This blindsense is not based on any of your existing senses and cannot be nullified by silence or similar effects.

Superior Sixth Sense
No, seriously, that's getting creepy.
Prerequisites: watchful fighter 9, Sixth Sense.
Benefit: Your blindsense ability increases in power, doubling its range. You also gain blindsight within a range of 5 feet for every 5 character levels. Like your blindsense, your blindsight cannot be nullified by silence or other effects.

Healthy Skepticism
You tend not to believe what you see.
Prerequisites: watchful fighter 1.
Benefit: You gain an automatic Will saving throw against any illusion that allows a save. As long as you see, hear, smell, or otherwise experience the illusion with any of your senses, you are entitled a saving throw. If you fail this saving throw, you may gain a second one when you fully interact with the illusion, as normal. You are not necessarily even aware that you are making a save unless you succeed; the roll should be made in secret by the DM. You also gain a competence bonus to your saving throws against all illusions equal to +1 per 3 character levels.

jiriku
2011-04-13, 10:48 PM
This is really really good, but I have some concerns about the Cavalry option (which, since I love mounted combat, is what I looked at first). Basically, I'm not clear on why the cavalry fighter can't have as nice a horse as a druid gets. Wild Cohort lets you get the same pets three levels later than the druid, and when they do get them they have worse stat boosts. Would it really be so horrible to just flat out give them an animal companion?

I'm attempting to keep the fighting styles at least roughly balanced against one another. A druid animal companion is WAY better than Rage, Commanding Aura, and what have you. Even Wild Cohort makes the cavalry fighter arguably the strongest option at 1st level.

Also, remember that the remixed fighter, like all my class remixes, is intended for a T3-T4 environment. That means either no druid, or a druid who's been whacked bloody with the nerf-bat.

The druid animal companion also has a lot of abilities that don't make sense on a non-spellcaster, like Share Spells. I didn't want those lying around. You'll note that I do provide some improvements to the Wild Cohort as the fighter levels up.

I'll also add in clarification that you can take Natural Bond with your Wild Cohort. That improves your effective druid level to match your character level.


Also, I'm not entirely clear on how the cavalry fighter is supposed to fight from the back of a dragon, as you describe it. Please show me the rules here for getting a dragon mount.

Uhhh, that would be because I had a series of feats planned for the cavalry fighter that improve the mount in various ways, but forgot to write them. :smalleek: Ultimately you should be able to choose magical beasts, dragons, critters with templates, you name it. I'll get back on the ball and write those feats this weekend. One of my players is also a cavalry fan; he's as excited about this fighting style as I'm sure you are. :smallsmile:


Oh, I can think of a couple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10640928#post10640928) ways (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2982).

Oh, tasty. Excuse me now while I shamelessly loot your stuff for my own dark purposes. :smallbiggrin:


Well, keep in mind that DR 1/-- or DR 2/-- is roughly comparable in terms of useful defenses to Energy Resistance 5 to all elements. So, SPoD has a great point.

I'm sold on improving the energy resistance, but do you think damage reduction is that much more powerful? Between weapons with energy adds, weapons that are energy (like ice axe or flame whips), and creatures with damaging energy auras, there's plenty of opportunity in some encounters to get hit with energy damage repeatedly in a round.


Question: Can a player use two uses of True Grit in the same turn in order to become unaffected by just about any condition, for example, going from Exhausted to Fatigued, to Unaffected? The ability doesn't specify any required action, so I assume yes. Can a player use True Grit when it isn't his turn?

No and yes, respectively. I'll edit to clarify.


[good stuff]

Consider it stolen. :smalltongue:

Pechvarry
2011-04-13, 11:01 PM
Shockwave Strike has a str req of 26. o.o Your view of fighter bonus feats more like tricks (sorta how I think of martial maneuvers) is very neat.

I think I had more to say when I clicked reply but then I saw that Sketchers commercial with the girl in the white pants and uh...

So yeah, good work and stuff. This is an odd compliment but I'ma say it anyway: very nice table. For everyone's love of "no dead levels", it makes it very overwhelming to take in. The bonus feats column makes it very easy on the eyes.

Kellus
2011-04-13, 11:39 PM
Uhhh, that would be because I had a series of feats planned for the cavalry fighter that improve the mount in various ways, but forgot to write them. :smalleek: Ultimately you should be able to choose magical beasts, dragons, critters with templates, you name it. I'll get back on the ball and write those feats this weekend. One of my players is also a cavalry fan; he's as excited about this fighting style as I'm sure you are. :smallsmile:

Awesome. I'm looking forward to it. This is really a very good fix that covers a ton of different themes well. :smallsmile:

jiriku
2011-04-14, 09:38 AM
Women in white pants usually have several levels in beguiler - mind control is definitely within their power.

I had intended for barbaric fighters to be able to meet the prerequisite for Shockwave Strike using their Rage-enhanced Strength score, but I can't think of an elegant way to put that, so I'll just drop the requirement to 20.

Stay tuned - more kits and fits to come. :smallsmile:

Seraphiel
2011-04-16, 12:19 AM
Oh man. I never look at fighter fixes. Except I'm totally playing a fighter next campaign. :3

Also I think Kellus is awesome. x3

Pechvarry
2011-04-16, 11:42 AM
I was kinda afraid the bonuses to the key skills are too big, but then I realized competence bonuses are what magic items give. I think this is a good idea, but every time I try to elaborate this becomes an essay.

Mounted Combat not taking an action... since when did it ever? It just had a "once per round" limiter. Oh. You re-wrote it to be an immediate action, so waiving the action means built in infinite-use. I see wut u did ther.

The "double mount speed" ability at level 9 for Cavalry Fighters can get pretty ridiculous with flying mounts. I wouldn't mind seeing the move speed bonus not apply to flyers, as there should be SOME advantage to remaining grounded. The one time I was in a campaign with a cavalier on a flying mount, we never even put him on the battle map. He indicated to the DM what side of the map he was hanging out on, and on his turn he'd choose an opponent anywhere on the map, make his attack roll, choose another side of the map to disappear to. I don't see a reason to make that sort of behavior even easier. When speeds triple, that's when I'd like to see flyers' doubled.

Mounted Scout is OK, but I feel like it needs another minor bonus. I would consider something like "your mount gains +2 dodge bonus to AC and +2 to Reflex Saves" to go along with the quick-moving scout. This is mostly a feel-good bonus since your mount is most likely going to be protected so heavily by Mounted Combat. Alternatively, a built-in Fleet of Foot for your mount (+5 movement speed) or some such.

I intend to get to the other Fighter styles when I can...

Gideon Falcon
2011-04-18, 04:32 PM
Also I think Kellus is awesome. x3

Looking at his truenamer fix (which is just the tip of the iceberg), isn't that a given?

Anyway, Jiriku, you've gone and done it AGAIN. This is as good as the Fighter Incarnate fix. Although, I am a bit hesitant about the commanding fighter, but that's just because of one of the excellent marshall fixes that I've seen. Also, the Disciplined fighter is diptastic for the simple reason that they can regain their combat focus infinitely. Why is this useful, aside from just the Combat form feats? Two words; Combat Psychic. The ability to regain your Psionic focus every time you damage someone is the ultimate ability for the Psychic warrior, as well as any manifester who can get a little up close, like wilders.

jiriku
2011-04-19, 01:15 AM
This is some great feedback! Gideon, could you link me the marshal fix you were thinking of?

Nerfed cavalry fighting style speed boosts, as suggested. Nerfed Combat Psychic feat - this was intended to make Combat Form feats worthwhile to a psionic character, not create a no-brainer dip-level. Buffed Mounted Scout.

Also, completed the last of the supplementary posts detailing the individual fighting styles. Now I just have to go back and invent about 40 new feats to flesh out the fighting styles.... :smalleek:

On that note, added 12 new cavalry fighter feats and one new watchful fighter feat. More options to follow for all fighting styles as my muse strikes. I'm also definitely going to be linking to some external threads containing improvements to the core fighter bonus feats.

Kellus
2011-04-19, 01:24 AM
Those are some great new options for the cavalry fighter. I'm not entirely certain how the adjusted druid levels for wild cohorts would work out with the variant cohort adjusted effective druid levels (say that five times fast) but it's so much better than mounted combat has ever had before that I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. :smallsmile:

What I especially like is the way you've tied some of the stuff in to previous mechanics, like your wing clip feats and the windburst charge. Very nice indeed. I need to look over it a little more, but I can guarantee that the next time I'm putting together a mounted character I'll be coming here instead of trying to add seven different prestige classes together to get something that's passable (seriously, it's absurd how hard it is to make an effective mounted character).

Your other changes look pretty good as well. Nicely done!

EDIT: For reference, the last time I tried to make a flying dogfighting mounted cavalier, I was considering either a Paladin of Freedom 5/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Beastmaster 1/Skylord 4/Cragtop Archer 3/Wild Plains Outrider 2/Dragonrider 1 or a Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Aglarondan Griffonrider 3/Skylord 2/Cragtop Archer 3.

... It's not pretty. :smallwink:

John Cribati
2011-04-19, 09:47 AM
The Weapon Master Fighter could have some kind of Performance- based feat that allows some Charisma bonuses in battle.

ForzaFiori
2011-04-20, 01:39 PM
as always Jiriku, you astound me. This is my new favorite fighter fix.

Pechvarry
2011-04-20, 04:50 PM
More keyboard diarrhea incoming:

Sudden Movement is At-Will Travel Devotion?

Terrifying Howl has no duration specified on the Shaken effect.

Why don't aura benefits stack with Aid Another?

I don't see why Dual Auras would require 20 levels... I suppose because it not only gives 2 Combat Auras, but 2 Commanding Auras as well. I think I would rather see these benefits divided, perhaps in the form of Advancement. Something like requiring Commanding fighter 12 or so to get 2x Combat Auras, and then it also allows 2x Commanding auras at level 18. You could also squeeze the ability to activate them 2-at-a-time into an Advancement.

Incidentally, including the ability to change Commanding Auras any time you change Combat Auras (and vice versa, of course) somewhere would be nice.

Both Expert Aid and Supporting Strike eventually increase your Aid Another bonus to +5. Was this intentional to create multiple paths?

I wish I could provide some inspiration for more Commander feats. For now, I'll suggest feats which allow you to cash in your normal Aid Another benefits for more exotic ones, but I don't know what that would be (for the most part, it'd probably end up redundant with the auras anyway).

jiriku
2011-04-20, 10:24 PM
More keyboard diarrhea incoming:

Yay! :smallbiggrin:


Sudden Movement is At-Will Travel Devotion?

Yes. It uses your swift action, but gives the benefit to your mount. I should also notate that the rider doesn't draw AoO during the movement either. On consideration, though, it's giving a big speed boost to a character who's already plenty fast, and it's rather powerful for the level. What if the mount is staggered as a result? This would let you do a couple of things:
Move without AoO, but for no net gain in distance traveled
Turn a corner before charging (a staggered mount can use a standard action to initiate a partial charge)

This might make it a bit weak, but I could then buff it some by granting the mount the ability to ignore entangling effects during the movement. Thoughts?


Terrifying Howl has no duration specified on the Shaken effect.

Duration added - one round.


Why don't aura benefits stack with Aid Another?

If the benefits stacked, a high-Charisma commanding fighter with the Platoon Leader feat could use synergistic auras in conjunction with Aid Another to move the entire party's attack roll or AC completely out of the RNG.


I don't see why Dual Auras would require 20 levels... I suppose because it not only gives 2 Combat Auras, but 2 Commanding Auras as well. I think I would rather see these benefits divided, perhaps in the form of Advancement. Something like requiring Commanding fighter 12 or so to get 2x Combat Auras, and then it also allows 2x Commanding auras at level 18. You could also squeeze the ability to activate them 2-at-a-time into an Advancement.

Incidentally, including the ability to change Commanding Auras any time you change Combat Auras (and vice versa, of course) somewhere would be nice.

I envisioned this as a capstone feat comparable to the warblade's Dual Stance, a crunchy reward like 9th level spells for casters. Stances are better than auras, though, so I can see how it would fit at a lower level. Dual Auras does grant the ability to change "one or two auras that you know", which can include a combat aura and a commanding aura. I could see moving this down a little though - it's not really granting new powers, just letting you mix up your existing ones better. Lemme think on how to rewrite this - and what kind of awesome capstone feat I can create in its place.


Both Expert Aid and Supporting Strike eventually increase your Aid Another bonus to +5. Was this intentional to create multiple paths?

Yes. Expert Aid-->Platoon Leader is somewhat more powerful, but eats your actions, and is more useful for commanding fighters who tend to lead from the back. Supporting Strike-->Improved Supporting Strike packs less power, but comes free with a successful melee attack. It's intended for commanding fighters who prefer to lead from the front. A fighter could theoretically pursue both trees, but it probably wouldn't be the best use of his feats.


I wish I could provide some inspiration for more Commander feats. For now, I'll suggest feats which allow you to cash in your normal Aid Another benefits for more exotic ones, but I don't know what that would be (for the most part, it'd probably end up redundant with the auras anyway).

I like this idea! I think rather than providing bonuses (which the commanding fighter is swimming in already), they should enable new actions. What could fit? Just brainstorming here, I'm thinking...

Ally immediately stands from prone without AoO, or prone enemy must spend a full-round action to stand if it stands from prone next round
Flat-footed ally is no longer flat-footed. Advancement: Ally gains Uncanny Dodge for one round. Advancement: Ally also gains Improved Uncanny Dodge for one round.
Ally takes an immediate free 5-foot step, or enemy is prevented from taking a 5-foot step for one round.
Ally recovers from dazed or stunned condition. Foe might be dazed.
Ally recovers from shaken, frightened, or panicked condition. Foe might be shaken.
Ally gains own character level as temp hp for one round.
Charmed, confused, dominated, or feebleminded ally gains new saving throw.

Ideas, anyone?

Pechvarry
2011-04-21, 12:41 AM
it's giving a big speed boost to a character who's already plenty fast

This concerned me quite a bit, but I wanted to make sure I understood it correctly. I feel something like that needs some sort of limiter. One thought I had was "you can do this a number of times per encounter equal to your mount's con bonus" or some such.

Instead of Staggered, how about Winded or Fatigued for a round? It kills charging (you could specify they gain the status at the end of your turn so you can charge in the round you use it but not the next), but retains a full round action. So no charge vs no full round actions.


If the benefits stacked, a high-Charisma commanding fighter with the Platoon Leader feat could use synergistic auras in conjunction with Aid Another to move the entire party's attack roll or AC completely out of the RNG.

Commanding auras only ever provide situational attack or AC, so they shouldn't be part of the problem and should, in my opinion, stack with Aid Another and Combat auras just fine. Combat Auras can go (as far as I can see) up to +6. I can see why you'd be leery about letting that stack with a +5 or so Aid Another with very little action investment.

One thing I would consider is nerfing Platoon Leader to only Standard Action investment. Since it requires Expert Aid (and comes at a level where Expert Aid is Immediate/Swift), it would provide a reason to still use a Standard (or at least Move) action for it.

With that sort of investment, stacking with auras is quite a bit less potent. And if someone goes the Supporting Strike route in addition to the Expert Aid tree, well, you already covered how that's a lot of feats.


Dual Auras does grant the ability to change "one or two auras that you know",

Yeah, I just meant as a lower level effect. I don't really know what to do about Dual Aura other than my suggestion above about making it advance. It's hard to make "I add a moderate number to TWO decent but limited stats!" an extremely interesting capstone... but I keep forgetting it's actually 4 instead of 2. But then, I feel like the Marshal class would struggle to be overpowered if they could project all auras known simultaneously.


I like this idea! I think rather than providing bonuses (which the commanding fighter is swimming in already), they should enable new actions. What could fit?

The "problem" with this is that it's effectively White Raven. I put that in quotes because that's what WotC finally realized: buffing through situational action is more active (and therefore fun) for the player, while also feeling much more tactical. So either try to find things that aren't White Raven-able, or embrace it and borrow from it. I would say "make sure they're more potent than maneuvers" but uhh... these guys will be popping this crap 3-7 times/round. That's nuts.

Holy crap. You have a Fighter that can Aid Another an entire party like 9 times if they can crank their AB high enough for the round! (and have enough tricks for extra attacks)

Anyway, I really like your suggested list, except maybe the temp HP one. Nvm, I like that one, too. Actually, I don't like the "remove effect" ones, though I'd be cool with stepping down more severe statuses and I'll always love the "grant a new save" types.

Oh, immediate action aura would be fantastic (or did I miss it?). Probably part of the capstone feat. You'll never use a Reflex Save aura unless you can toss it up in response to a fireball.

Also, I just realized you have the entirety of the aura tree wrapped up in automatic class features and 1 feat (2 with Dual Auaras). I can see how this makes sense as a no-brainer investment for commanding fighters (thus making it the focus of the capstone feat), but some more commanding aura support would make it an alternative to Aid Another focus. Don't ask me what support that would be! As I said, there's good reason to leave it as low-investment as possible.

Pechvarry's Parenthesis: a Gitp drinking game.

Gideon Falcon
2011-04-21, 05:45 PM
This is some great feedback! Gideon, could you link me the marshal fix you were thinking of?

I don't know where it is, but it was T. G. Oskar's, so you caould find it in his extended sig.

Also, the new Combat psychic says you can expend your combat focus as a move action to regain psychic focus, but psionic meditation already lets you do exactly that.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-04-22, 02:19 PM
I like this fighter fix, and I'm gonna use it in my campaign.

The guy will be gestalt fighter//warblade, and will be barbaric fighter//warblade with white raven and iron heart.

jiriku
2011-04-22, 09:46 PM
OK, you've both identified some good balance tweaks and pointed out some significant exploits arising from interactions of these feats that I hadn't seen.

Sudden Movement: Nerfed to leave the mount winded.
Dual Auras: Requirements reduced and feat is now staged.
Improved Aura: Buffed slightly.
Expert Aid: Nerfed advancement doesn't provide an immediate activation option.
Platoon Leader: Nerfed to require a standard action.
Supporting Strike, Improved: Nerfed to be usable only with attacks you make on your turn.

I added eight new feats for commanding fighters focusing on improvements to auras and new uses for Aid Another.

Battlefield Commander, Domineering Presence, Lead From the Front: Tactical feats providing multiple alternative uses for Aid Another.
Extra Aura: I bet you can't guess.
Lingering Aura: Prolly can't guess this one either.
Now is the Time!: Nova your auras
Supreme Commander: Capstone! All auras active all the time
Timely Orders: Activate an aura or use Aid Another as an immediate action

I am still concerned about the stacking of auras and Aid Another. I am so concerned, in fact, that I am considering changing the bonus type on the auras from circumstance to morale so that they will not stack with bardic music or most cleric buffs. I have visions of a party that includes a cleric, a bard, and a commanding fighter, all synergizing and stacking their buffs to get +10 to +20 on all their rolls and essentially render monster's attack rolls, AC, and ability save DC's meaningless. Thoughts?

Combat Psychic is basically intended to allow psywars and psychic gishes to gain combat focus more than once per combat by repeatedly burning their psionic focus. But post-nerf Expend ability is pretty lame now. What if it was only a swift action, but you couldn't expend your combat focus and psionic focus in the same turn? I'm trying to avoid creating a dip progression of disciplined fighter 1/psiwar (x-1) that's automatically better than psiwar x.

Pechvarry
2011-04-22, 10:23 PM
I am still concerned about the stacking of auras and Aid Another. I am so concerned, in fact, that I am considering changing the bonus type on the auras from circumstance to morale so that they will not stack with bardic music or most cleric buffs. I have visions of a party that includes a cleric, a bard, and a commanding fighter, all synergizing and stacking their buffs to get +10 to +20 on all their rolls and essentially render monster's attack rolls, AC, and ability save DC's meaningless. Thoughts?

Just so we're clear, we're talking about Combat auras and not Commanding auras here, right? I feel like the Commanding auras (and the minor auras they're based on) are mostly situational enough that it's OK. The only +AC commanding aura is against AoOs only - which isn't bad at all - and there aren't any +attack auras. So assuming it's the combat auras, I'm ok with that not stacking with Aid Others. I can see how that makes the +attack and +AC auras less appealing to most Commanding Fighters while still being useful to other Fighter types.


I'm trying to avoid creating a dip progression of disciplined fighter 1/psiwar (x-1) that's automatically better than psiwar x.

Switch Disciplined Fighter around so the instant-refresh doesn't come at level 1? I haven't read Disciplined yet, and apparently I need to re-read commander since all new options have appeared.

----

K, read the new stuff on commanding auras

Improved Combat Aura is now a feat tax -- as far as I can tell, it takes you from a +5 bonus to all allies to a +11 at level 20.

Domineering Presence>Walk it off, soldier has a type (allow an allow)

On Now is the Time! Are you unable to activate any auras for the rest of the encounter? Or just the ones that were active when the ability was used? Personally, I like the latter, though maybe that'd be better if it were a doubling instead of a tripling. I dunno. At least it's straightforward enough once you get Supreme Commander!

---

As usual, good work. Well done with the tactical feats -- I think chunking it like that works nicely.

---

Gosh, ANOTHER separater? I wish someone would post so I wouldn't have to keep editing.

---

I'm still a bit leery on even once/round combat focus for the disciplined fighter. At least make them wait a couple levels for it (helping to solve your dip problem), but I'd like to see an action cost considered.

It appears I know everything else in the disciplined fighter section!

jiriku
2011-04-22, 11:32 PM
Improved Combat Aura is now a feat tax -- as far as I can tell, it takes you from a +5 bonus to all allies to a +11 at level 20.

Domineering Presence>Walk it off, soldier has a type (allow an allow)

On Now is the Time! Are you unable to activate any auras for the rest of the encounter? Or just the ones that were active when the ability was used? Personally, I like the latter, though maybe that'd be better if it were a doubling instead of a tripling. I dunno. At least it's straightforward enough once you get Supreme Commander!

I believe you're mis-reading ICA, thinking that it adds +1/3 levels to the existing combat aura bonus. Rather it replaces the existing bonus progression with a progression of +1/3 levels. This is actually slightly less advantageous than before for a dedicated fighter, but it is a considerable boon to a multiclass fighter/whatever, who can take ICA and then gain an excellent combat aura progression based on his character level.

Typo corrected in Domineering Presence. I really imagined Imperial Guard commissars from WH40K when I wrote this feat.

NitT! shuts down all of your auras. Basically, it's a last ditch maneuver to try when you're desperate, or a killer bonus to apply when you've got the enemy on the ropes. You'd only ever use it once per combat, but with good timing, you should find a use for it in nearly every combat. Do you think it needs a recharge? I'm kind of inclined against it, as that would tend to encourage PCs to nova it on round 1 or round 2 in an attempt to wipe the monsters off the battlefield before the fight as even properly begun.

As an aside, I'm finding that stepping away from uses per day or uses per encounter and moving into at-will abilities with significant drawbacks is a very fun design space. Limited-use abilities are illogical for characters with a martial power source (why can't I swing my sword like that more than once per day?), but at-will abilities with the right drawbacks are inherently spammable (as they should be), yet the player won't generally want to spam them (which would be boring anyhow). Instead, the player is invited to try to create tactical situations where the benefits of the ability are maximized and its drawbacks minimized - which leads to tactical maneuvering, teamwork, and use of the environment (which makes for fun, interesting fights). Also, I just like the feel that's created when martial characters are encouraged to exploit chance, opportunity, and cunning in situations where divine, arcane, or psionic characters would just be using their spells or powers.

------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll see your bar and raise you a double-bar.

Combat Focus edited to require disciplined fighter 3rd. If they sink three levels into the class, they deserve some spoils at that point.

Combat Psychic edited again, hopefully to neither suck nor be abusable at this point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Renamed thuggish fighter to cunning fighter and improved its sneak attack progression. Added two new ambush feats, revamped all of the others.

Pechvarry
2011-04-23, 07:04 PM
As an aside, I'm finding that stepping away from uses per day or uses per encounter and moving into at-will abilities with significant drawbacks is a very fun design space. Limited-use abilities are illogical for characters with a martial power source (why can't I swing my sword like that more than once per day?), but at-will abilities with the right drawbacks are inherently spammable (as they should be), yet the player won't generally want to spam them (which would be boring anyhow). Instead, the player is invited to try to create tactical situations where the benefits of the ability are maximized and its drawbacks minimized - which leads to tactical maneuvering, teamwork, and use of the environment (which makes for fun, interesting fights). Also, I just like the feel that's created when martial characters are encouraged to exploit chance, opportunity, and cunning in situations where divine, arcane, or psionic characters would just be using their spells or powers.

I wouldn't mind an entire system designed around this paradigm, actually. But that's not even D&D after that much work -- a bit more than a simple houserule, that.

As usual, expect some heavy editing of this post as I hit the next Fighter types.

----

Arterial having no duration can kinda suck. I understand mages can do wayyyyy worse, but "I hit once and run away and since he's a melee in the middle of the woods, he's toast". As usual, I hate it most from the stance of DMs using it against me, but I feel like a lot of cunning fighters would end up using the tactics I described above. Perhaps saying the wounds can not bring you below 0 HP would help?

Blinding strike, same thing with the permanent duration. And once again, I know blindness/deafness is permanent and only level 2. But this has no save, and that's pretty harsh.

Concussion and hamstring strikes seem to gain nothing from the Special: line. In the 1st case, it's redundant with the Benefits section. In the case of Hamstring, it just doesn't make sense (or I'm missing something). You could consider sacking extra D6s to increase the DC of the heal check. That would make it even more prominent that a simple cure minor wounds would suffice, though. Though you could always pull one of those deals where you must either get the Heal check or "heal more HP damage than the attack dealt", depending on how convoluted you feel like going.

I guess that's all I have for Thuggish/Cunning.

Omeganaut
2011-04-27, 11:03 AM
DEFENSIVE STANCE [Fighter]
Benefit: Once per encounter when you declare you are fighting defensively or taking the total defense action, you may enter a defensive stance... Your defensive stance is initially usable only once per day. You gain an additional daily use at watchful fighter level 4th, and every four levels thereafter.

This doesn't make sense, is it per encounter or per day?


WEAPON MASTER FIGHTING STYLE
Weapon Master: The stunt gladiator, the exotic weapon specialist, the soldier who practices endlessly to perfect his technique. These and other weapon master fighter archetypes emphasize technique above all else. A weapon master fighter gains Balance, Concentration, Iaijutsu Focus, and Sense Motive as class skills, and gains Weapon Focus (with a weapon of your choice) as a bonus feat. A weapon master fighter also gains proficiency with a single exotic weapon, armor, or shield of his choice.

This doesn't mention which skills are important to the class.

I just saw two small things that I thought you should know about. Otherwise, I love you're work on the fighting classes, keep it up!

Hiro Protagonest
2011-04-27, 12:32 PM
This doesn't make sense, is it per encounter or per day?

Both. You can use it only a certain number of times per day, but you can't activate it more then once per encounter.

cfalcon
2011-04-28, 09:14 AM
Mostly I'm posting here to chime in on the feat retraining. Ever since Monte Cooke's excellent Fighters Fighters and Mo' Fighters book (Iron Heroes) had one of his Fighter Equivalents be able to retrain some feats on the fly, I've done a very limited thing in my games: a couple of the bonus feats (up to 3) that the fighter learns throughout his career are variable feats in this style.

At one, it's a fun ability. At two, it's tactically interesting, as you can suddenly switch your spec and go down a different road for the day. At three, it starts to feel like you are some kind of feat-wizard. If it's really ALL those feats, I think that's way too much- you'd feel like a feat-cleric I would think.

I would recommend you first test with either a limited number of variable feats, or a "feat pool" like a wizard's spellbook.


The full round as a standard... that wasn't just something fighters had in earlier editions, EVERYONE could pull that stunt. Also remember that total number of attacks was much lower, and that BAB didn't diminish. I think diminishing +hit is as clever as I did the first day we were all in my old apartment cracking open our rushed delivery 3.0 PHBs, but I'm less pleased with the onerous requirements for full attacks (since everyone was always hasted starting at around 8th level, we still had that functionality throughout 3.0 :P ).

What I am trying in the game I'm currently in is this:

Once you are entitled to 3 attacks (11 BAB), your standard actions and attacks of opportunity can become double strikes, the first strike at your highest attack bonus, and the second at that -10. It's only -8 if your second attack is with a different weapon (two weapon fighting). This means that your standard action scales in a more limited fashion than your full attack- you basically get your 1st and 3rd attacks. Is this good? I don't know, it's not tested yet. I just figured you might be interested because you want to address the same problem as me. But *just* giving it to fighters (especially at 7th level- I would think this would be more like 9th, and have some associated penalty to represent time lost) seems like you'll have to do this same remake to the paladin, barbarian, and ranger, because at a minimum all the full BAB guys are gonna want in on this.

Looking at your archetypes, which one is a town guard?

Anyway, good luck.

Veklim
2011-04-28, 10:13 AM
I would recommend you first test with either a limited number of variable feats, or a "feat pool" like a wizard's spellbook.
Was gonna say a similar thing until I read your post! If you start off with your first floating feat with the choice of 2 different feats, then gained another 2 options/floating feat, it would make sense. You could basically have a backup feat-tree, go power attack if the combat expertise isn't helping, etc.



Once you are entitled to 3 attacks (11 BAB), your standard actions and attacks of opportunity can become double strikes, the first strike at your highest attack bonus, and the second at that -10.......But *just* giving it to fighters (especially at 7th level- I would think this would be more like 9th, and have some associated penalty to represent time lost) seems like you'll have to do this same remake to the paladin, barbarian, and ranger, because at a minimum all the full BAB guys are gonna want in on this.
So make a house rule on standard action attacks based solely on BAB. That way any class with better than worst BAB gets a piece of the action eventually.

cfalcon
2011-04-28, 07:30 PM
So make a house rule on standard action attacks based solely on BAB. That way any class with better than worst BAB gets a piece of the action eventually.

That's what I did. My point is, everyone keeps addressing it through special abilities that do about the same thing- just houserule the part that is broken.

Remember, there's a VERY brief window of non-full-attack D&D. AD&D, AD&D 2ed just gave you the attacks. 3ed has a couple levels where full attack is an extra (inaccurate) swing, and then everyone is hasted and does partial charge + full attack. 3.5ed took that away, and immediately sold us back a bunch of ways to have it. But, my point is, I don't want a bunch of ways. I want one way, so that everyone who punches stuff has a way to punch on the move.

Veklim
2011-04-29, 06:06 AM
I want one way, so that everyone who punches stuff has a way to punch on the move.

You have that here...

Once you are entitled to 3 attacks (11 BAB), your standard actions and attacks of opportunity can become double strikes, the first strike at your highest attack bonus, and the second at that -10.

Mis-read the first time through, hehehe. I don't see how anything else needs saying to that honestly!

cfalcon
2011-04-29, 09:03 AM
You have that here...

Well, this rule just lets fighters at 7th level make full attacks as standard actions. That doesn't cover it for everyone, it covers it for explicitly just fighters. It also seems too generous, and a benefit that stacks with high levels not seen yet.

Pretend it came in at 8th level... and what if it let you take your *second* attack during the standard action, but all attacks are at a -2? So you spend 5 levels with one attack, then 3 levels with 2 attacks but only on a full round, then 2 levels with 2 attacks on a full round -or- two attacks with a penalty for a standard?

Then we have another ability that comes it at 13th level. This one lets you take a *third* attack during the standard action, and all the attacks are at -2 (upgrading the old ability).

Then a final one at 18th level, doing the same thing for the 4th attack.

These could be tied to BAB, or they could just be how the fighter does it- but in the second case, you still need to update for everyone.

Eldest
2011-04-29, 12:49 PM
This looks great, and I keep imagining a fighter raging while on a horse. Cool image.
Nitpick: the final stand feat has a -10 to DC every time you use it past the first, but there is no DC mentioned in the feat other than that. You might want to switch it to "-10 to the check".

Pechvarry
2011-04-29, 08:29 PM
Just a heads up: I DID look over the watchful and weapon master fighters, but I didn't have a whole lot of interesting input on them.

It does kinda suck that the Watchful Fighter has no options in fighting styles, whereas every other style offers at least 2 choices at each fighting style level.

Also, no crowd-control for watchful in feat support (though obviously, a Fighter is well-suited to the plethora of feats required to make that work). I'm always trying to find a way to make a sword/shield guy able to tank as well as Huge + Spiked chain + Stand Still/Improved Trip. It's flippin' hard.

Oh, one idea I had and a correction concerning the same ability. First the correction:

I think Exceptional Strength needs changed to read "add an extra amount of damage equal to 50% of your strength bonus" instead of "increase your strength bonus by 50%". The latter can be read to say "I have a 22 STR, so a +6 bonus, which is +9 when 2-handing, which is +13 with Exceptional Strength." I do believe that wasn't your intention.

Idea, either as a choice for all level 3 Fighters to take in place of Exceptional Strikes, or as a bonus feat for watchful fighters (I prefer the latter): Unstoppable Strikes or Steadfast Swings or what-have-you. Basically, give up the benefits of Exceptional Strength to add Con to damage. Either requiring 1-handed weapons or forcing 2-handers to give up 1.5 STR if they use the ability.

Good work and stuff.

Okuno
2011-05-16, 07:08 PM
Oops, under the description for the rage feat, you write "additional daily use at watchful fighter level 4th", obviously meat to be barbaric.

Also, it's grammatically ambiguous underneath the Cunning Style II, since I read "as a move action" as applying only to the stealing bit, but re-reading it I see its actually meant to go over both parts of the conjunction. Its really annoying, to no one more than myself, but the redundant style of redundant repetition look is good for rules <.<

EDIT: oh, and somewhere you mentioned that you get Skill Mastery for your key skills (as the daring outlaw ability). Perhaps you mean as the swashbuckler class feature, but still, fully writing it out is probably a better idea: "when making a skill check with one of your key skills, you may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent you from doing so."

Moving on from the nitpicks, this remix actually gives a reason to play fighter ever while simultaneously organizing a lot of options for generating character concepts more easily. I definitely plan on integrating this into my campaigns and pushing it on any of my future DMs. ^.^

However, on the style feats front, I notice the conspicuous absence of Insightful Strike for the cunning fighter, which is a great boon for swashbuckler-y concepts to actually have a reason to put points into int. Actually, drawing from the swashbuckler class some more, a Lucky feat could be a good addition to at least a couple of fighter styles.

LUCKY
Better lucky than good, or so they say.
Prerequisite: Barbaric or Cunning fighter level 4th
Benefit: Once per encounter, you may reroll any attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw. You may take whichever roll is more beneficial.


That's probably written more like traditional 3.5 feats than what you're using, but there's the idea (and already a distinct improvement over the crap swashbuckler feature).

Finally, the watchful fighter, since it seems to be sorely lacking in feats. There are two things that really jump out at me about him, a) that he's a reverse barbarian and b) that he's the dark, quiet stoic type. So here's some ideas (though I don't have a quick way to work them into the system): barbarians can't wear heavier armor, let the watchman use his armor more effectively, perhaps less encumbered by it or able to squeeze a little extra defense out of it. He's already got resistance to illusion, what about resisting enchantment (I saw a Mentalist yesterday where the prison guard was immune to the protagonist's hypnotist tricks, so it seems to fit)? This guy's a veteran of the watch, so it makes sense to let him have fast movement so he can better chase down criminals. Oh, and bump what Pechvarry said about crowd-control.

Well, that was finally for feats, but finally finally, we have the Wild Cohort which (in addition to having a mood-breaking name as opposed to something more along the lines of Favored Mount or something) is really weird as written: it allows a full-grown human to call a snake his wild cohort, even though you obviously mean for it to act as a mount, and a snake is unrideable. As further weird, a wild cohort requires training to be used as a mount, but this shouldn't really be a barrier for a feat designed to get you a mount. The boosts themselves look not-overpowered, just the RAW is yucky. Especially if you mean for the mount to scale with cavalry fighter levels, since wild cohorts scale with character level. As a final critique of using that feat as given, its ambiguous about what is required to get a new one, maybe it takes some serious work, possibly another application of the feat, or maybe you just buy a fresh one. Clearing that up would prove most useful. Maybe I'll get off my arse and type out a replacement.

Keep up the good work!

Shadowknight12
2011-05-18, 06:47 AM
This looks interesting, and I am going to look into it with greater depth later on, but I wanted to drop a question first after giving the class a quick read:

If I'm playing a Watchful Fighter, do I have a way to ensure that the enemies focus on me instead of flying over/tumbling past/running around me to go after the squishies? At first glance, it seems that there's nothing that makes him a true defender, even if he excels at being a stone wall.

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-19, 03:46 PM
I myself think that it needs to get more of the class feature bonus feats. I'm not sure that as is the Barbaric and such fighting styles are much more than the original class with a few extra bonus feats and several ACFs. Perhaps if you gained the actual benefits of the lower tiers of the second and third fighting styles, even if at a slower rate?

jiriku
2011-05-19, 05:28 PM
This looks interesting, and I am going to look into it with greater depth later on, but I wanted to drop a question first after giving the class a quick read:

If I'm playing a Watchful Fighter, do I have a way to ensure that the enemies focus on me instead of flying over/tumbling past/running around me to go after the squishies? At first glance, it seems that there's nothing that makes him a true defender, even if he excels at being a stone wall.

I have a number of additional Watchful Fighter feats in development which will focus on carving out a tanking role. Development has just been... delayed slightly because Steam network is evil and offered me amazingly good prices on video games I'd always wanted to buy and now I have all these video games and there's just so few hours in the day and... you know how it is. :smallredface:

Dralnu
2011-05-19, 06:06 PM
Why does the Fighter have good Will saves? It's a classic weakness that is worth keeping.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-19, 06:09 PM
Why does the Fighter have good Will saves? It's a classic weakness that is worth keeping.

Classic in the game, but not much sense flavorwise. Warriors are strong-willed, and they've probably got some skills against spells from training (or in the case of barbaric fighter, sheer force of will),

Dralnu
2011-05-19, 06:17 PM
Fighters are trained in physical combat. Because of their physical training, they're good at taking physical damage, which explains their high health and high Fort. They don't train with magic. Spellcasters train with magic, and because of that training they're more adept at defending themselves against magic. They don't do physical training, hence their low hp and fort saves.

If a fighter is interested in better defending himself against magic, he should be specifically training for that (PrC's like Witch Hunter, or invest feats for it). He shouldn't get a great Will save just 'cause. Just like an adventuring sorcerer doesn't just get a high Fort save just because he "probably trains skills against physical damage."

Just my two cents.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-19, 06:24 PM
Fighters are trained in physical combat. Because of their physical training, they're good at taking physical damage, which explains their high health and high Fort. They don't train with magic. Spellcasters train with magic, and because of that training they're more adept at defending themselves against magic. They don't do physical training, hence their low hp and fort saves.

If a fighter is interested in better defending himself against magic, he should be specifically training for that (PrC's like Witch Hunter, or invest feats for it). He shouldn't get a great Will save just 'cause. Just like an adventuring sorcerer doesn't just get a high Fort save just because he "probably trains skills against physical damage."

Just my two cents.

Magic is an integral part of the game. It's common, and fighters have to be able to do their job. Now, they can't do their job if they get dominated, charmed, or tricked by an illusion.

Seerow
2011-05-19, 06:24 PM
Fighters are trained in physical combat. Because of their physical training, they're good at taking physical damage, which explains their high health and high Fort. They don't train with magic. Spellcasters train with magic, and because of that training they're more adept at defending themselves against magic. They don't do physical training, hence their low hp and fort saves.

If a fighter is interested in better defending himself against magic, he should be specifically training for that (PrC's like Witch Hunter, or invest feats for it). He shouldn't get a great Will save just 'cause. Just like an adventuring sorcerer doesn't just get a high Fort save just because he "probably trains skills against physical damage."

Just my two cents.

By that logic anyone without magical training should have ALL weak saves. After all, spells target fort at LEAST as often as they do Will, and Reflex saves are generally either traps or spells (and most of those traps are magical).

Dralnu
2011-05-19, 06:35 PM
Magic is an integral part of the game. It's common, and fighters have to be able to do their job. Now, they can't do their job if they get dominated, charmed, or tricked by an illusion.

Isn't that how it's supposed to work? A physically dominating warrior's weak spot is his mind. Again, it's a classic weakness. If the fighter wants to shore up his weaknesses, he should invest in magical defenses accordingly via feats and PrCs.


By that logic anyone without magical training should have ALL weak saves. After all, spells target fort at LEAST as often as they do Will, and Reflex saves are generally either traps or spells (and most of those traps are magical).

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but spells with Fort saves generally attack the target physically. A Fighter would therefore do well against this. Reflex save spells have the "dodge this" factor. Will save spells effect the mind. Spellcasters are good against mind stuff. They need a strong mind for their magics. They're not so good at saving against poisons and stuff that requires a physically tough body.

Seerow
2011-05-19, 06:36 PM
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but spells with Fort saves generally attack the target physically.

Depends, do you consider being turned into a frog being attacked physically? Cause I'd definitely consider that more of a magical attack personally, but you never can tell.

Shadowknight12
2011-05-19, 06:42 PM
I have a number of additional Watchful Fighter feats in development which will focus on carving out a tanking role. Development has just been... delayed slightly because Steam network is evil and offered me amazingly good prices on video games I'd always wanted to buy and now I have all these video games and there's just so few hours in the day and... you know how it is. :smallredface:

Hah, yes, I understand. Still, it's good to hear you're considering that as a viable point.

About the Will save: I would argue not from a fluff point of view but from a mechanical balance. The three main classes (rogue, fighter and wizard/sorcerer) excel at one area, to the detriment of the other two. That is reflected on their saves. If the fighter has a high Will save, it stops being a paragon of Fortitude, grit and physical prowess and starts resembling a cleric with no spellcasting.

Dralnu
2011-05-19, 06:42 PM
Depends, do you consider being turned into a frog being attacked physically? Cause I'd definitely consider that more of a magical attack personally, but you never can tell.


Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but spells with Fort saves generally attack the target physically.


Emphasis mine. I was careful to use that word because I knew someone would say, "well, XYZ spell doesn't seem to fit the criteria!"

But in your example, yes, I can see that being a fort save. It's a physical change. Most stuff that require will saves generally prey on the target's mind. Fear effects, enchantments, mind tricks, etc.

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-19, 06:43 PM
Really, the good Will save doesn't represent anti-magic training on the part of the fighter, it represents FIGHTAN SPIRIT! It just represents that he could care less about your silly things like Dominate Person and such. That's the idea behind True Grit.

Anyway, let's not turn this into a flame war or anything, okay?

Pechvarry
2011-05-19, 09:27 PM
The ongoing fighter vs mage problem is that the melee's job is to be a buffer between the party mages and the bad guys. The problem in 3e is that this theory lasts until the first dominate person is thrown. And a lot of higher level creatures can do this sort of stuff. while you're at it, there's a lot of save-or-suck in the world. I'm in a campaign where my level 5 paladin has been blinded by glitterdust 3 times already. And his saves are fantastic. If I only failed due to chronic bad luck, imagine where the Fighter would be.

Still, I like the idea of giving Fighters a weak will save but a bonus on saves against mind-affecting and fear effects, for example. Perhaps the Watchful Fighter should add half his bonus to Will Saves against the above, as it's particularly bodyguards who you don't want mind controlled, Professor-X-vs-Sabertooth style, and used against the party mage (Magneto in this instance).

Okuno
2011-05-21, 12:01 PM
Before I get into the real response, it'd be good to clear up the obvious terminological confusion: weak against mental does not equal weak against spells. There are two classifications going on: firstly, mental(enchantment)-physical(blasting and transmutation) and secondly, magical(spells)-physical(stabby-crushy). Some users are messing this up, figure it out.

Onwards:

Depends, do you consider being turned into a frog being attacked physically? Cause I'd definitely consider that more of a magical attack personally, but you never can tell.

Considering that polymorph leaves the mind alone and changes the body, it seems like a spell that affects the body. In that case fort is probably a good choice.

Of course, I agree that it's a little counterintuitive. IIRC (I was rather young playing AD&D), there used to be a specific save vs. polymorph. Still, I doubt we want to go to those tables again <.< So I'll settle.


Magic is an integral part of the game. It's common, and fighters have to be able to do their job. Now, they can't do their job if they get dominated, charmed, or tricked by an illusion.

Ahem, stabbing is an integral part of the game. It's common, and mages have to be able to do their job. Now, they can't do their job if they get stabbed to squishy death.

I love copy-paste as much as the next guy, but no one advocates a d12 hit die for a mage, ever. For that matter, few advocate even letting the mage cast in heavy armor. (Morrowind does, btw, so check tradition at the door, kthx) Still, somehow an argument this silly is used to give the fighter the best will save in the game? <.<


However, there seems really to be a bigger problem with saves: too much coarse-graining. And this manifests in a couple ways:

A) There are only two types of saves, worst and best. Why no middle ground? (perhaps 1+5/12*level) Still, that's a question that goes beyond this homebrew, and so shouldn't be handled here.

B) All of the fighter kits exposited (why can't I think of a smaller word!? 0.0) here get the same saves. The cunning fighter should have better reflex saves, right? The disciplined fighter, trained in the mental art of bushido, obviously shouldn't get the worst will save, right? That's something this homebrew might address. On the other hand, it's such a small modification that anyone using can easily change those numbers as the copy-paste the rules.

I personally think that True Grit was designed to emulate this fighting spirit and reduce the gulf between poor and good saves. Topping that off with good will saves actually makes fighters better than mages at resisting mental effects. Hence, giving the fighter the best will save progression is reduced to absurdity in my mind.

C) I know I said "a couple", but this is another coarse-graining problem. There aren't enough types of saves. I don't advocate bringing back save vs. wands, but a save vs. polymorph and some related effects like dominate (the polymorph of the mind) maybe wouldn't be bad. All that's a problem at a lower priority than the carwreck that is ability scores, and again is beyond the scope here.


There is still the question of dominate person &c. My party (already at reduced strength) got wiped when our dps got dominated. Sun Tzu says that turning an enemy against his former compatriots is far more effective than simply destroying them. Does the system rate dominate spells much higher than hold spells? For dominate vs. hold person, we have Sor/Wiz 5 vs. Sor/Wiz 3 - that is CL 9 vs. 5: less than twice the strength. And if you instead compare it to finger of death, Sor/Wiz7, CL13, dominate is grossly underestimated.

This is not a problem with the fighter. The problem lies in the disconnect between the stated strength of the spells and the true strength thereof. Again, this problem goes beyond the scope of this homebrew.


I am interested to know why jikiru gave the fighter the will save he did. I am more interested in getting him to type up those feats to fill out his fighter system, so I won't press him on it. Especially if he's thinking with portals ^.^ I'm really annoyed at my post-graduation poverty, but I guess i can be thankful my DMing isn't suffering >,>

Rhyvurg
2011-05-22, 05:24 AM
This...is awesome. It addresses almost all the complaints I've had about Fighters since I started playing 3.0. To many classes had everything the fighter had, and something more.

Paladins had spells, healing, mount, and turning.

Rangers had spells, skills, companion, and favored enemies.

Barbarians had HP, speed, rage, and more skill points.

Fighters had the least skill points, underpowered feats (at first), no magical defenses, and the highest dependency on magic items. Now, I was of the opinion that if those other full BAB classes had all that going for them, fine, I have no problem with it. If every other class is going to have a horde of out-of-combat options, that's just dandy. But if that's the case, then the Fighter should be the unquestioned BEST at fighting. If the Fighter can do nothing well but fight, then when the initiative dice hit the table, it's the Fighter's world, y'all just live in it. This should include casters, by the way. I said it addressed almost all my complaints. The one it missed is this. If the fighter is (in a fair world) the BEST in a fight, then things like Weapon Supremacy should be something he gets at like level 12, not 18. And before you say that would be broken, pause and ask yourself this. Is it still broken when you compare it to a wizard, druid or cleric? I'm betting everyone would say no.

That being said, I don't have a problem with fighters having good Will saves. Yes, they're trained to deal with physical threats, while casters deal with the esoteric. But, not everything that provokes a Will save is a spell. Yes, casters should be better able to deal with magic, as it's their bread and butter. But that is expressed by countermagic and abjurations, not just saving throws. Is it better to have a saving throw that has a decent chance of protecting you from that Dominate Monster spell, or be able to negate the magic completely and still get a save if you fail? Because that's what casters can do. Even if everyone had a high Will save, countermagic and defensive spells still give casters the antimagic edge.

Ursus the Grim
2011-05-22, 08:17 AM
I'm in the camp protesting the good Will save. If you're striving for balance between fighter and mage they should each have their tradeoffs. A mage doesn't get fortitude bonuses, even though its likely they've got arcane magic flowing through their blood. A fighter shouldn't get good Will. It would negate a huge weakness that they should possess.

If it were JUST the Will Save, I wouldn't consider it an issue. But combined with True Grit AND Combat Aura (Resilient Troops), you've got a beast with +17 to Will Saves and can reduce status effects before even taking into account magic items and wisdom scores.

I would recommend the Will Save be dropped. Combat Aura (Resilent Troops) nearly brings it back up to Good, in addition to buffing the other two saves. That's more than enough mitigation against spells, IMHO. If it still isn't good enough, perhaps grant an inherent bonus against certain effects (ie, compulsions, fear, etc).

I agree that the Fighter needs a boost, but negating things that should be weak points isn't the way to do it, unless its the focus of a particular combat style, such as (perhaps) Watchful or Disciplined.

That being said, the rest of the class looks really good. I don't think its on par with Wizards or Clerics, but its getting closer here. Most of the styles look balanced against each other, with the possible exception of Commanding (requires Cha, thus perhaps nearing MAD). The Bonus Feats complement the class abilities quite well, too.

Okuno
2011-05-22, 12:39 PM
...when the initiative dice hit the table, it's the Fighter's world, y'all just live in it. This should include casters, by the way.


Is it still broken when you compare it to a wizard, druid or cleric? I'm betting everyone would say no.

While I agree with just about everything you pull out (and it's kinda hard to get that across when there's so much more to be said about what I don't agree with), these are kinda weird claims.

Wizard, druid and cleric are all T1, and we're not trying to build a T1 fighter. Comparing a fighter to any T1, or even T2 for that matter, is just a bad basis for argument. This is especially the case when we consider the existing fantasy literature, though from this perspective, it might not be a bad idea to tone down the T1s and T2s and leave all the classic Gandalfs and Sarumans in major epic artifact territory (you know, like play E6 or something).


Even if everyone had a high Will save, countermagic and defensive spells still give casters the antimagic edge.
Good point, I'ma have to retract my overly straightforwardly put statement about good will+true grit > mages vs. magic. Although to be fair, there are plenty of defensive spells that can be cast on others, such as Spell Immunity. Furthermore, True Grit always just works, and passively at that, counterspell requires a readied action, a skill check and an opposed caster level check. Still, counterspell can work on anything once your sor has dispel magic. The waters are a little muddied over which is better until some math is done.



Combat Aura (Resilent Troops) nearly brings it back up to Good, in addition to buffing the other two saves. That's more than enough mitigation against spells, IMHO.
I definitely missed this, not something I think about as fighter-y, but I guess I'm too used to the existing system x.x Except for Lv2, a fighter with resilient troops will bring the whole party's bad saves within 2 points of a good save. At lv9+, they're always exactly equal to or one less than a good save. The only two points of contention with regards to whether the fighter's will should be higher I see are that the fighter probably won't always want to have that aura up and that the aura will probably be boosting the mage's will save too.

Really, it is perhaps good to point out that the existence of fighter auras will change the dynamics of combat into the PCs favor at least somewhat. Before, we needed a 5th player to use a bard and sing whilst fighting; now every group has such a buffer. I don't immediately see a big problem, but I'm not terribly good at op, so someone else will see problems better. If a problem does exist, it's a fairly simple solution to nerf Resilient Troops down to just one save being boosted, which looks closer to what the bard does. (fracking the only thing the bard can do for saves is boost them vs. charm and fear effects) Oh, and bard and fighter both give morale, right? The fighter's aura might not want to step on too many toes, or we might need a bard remix to go along with. Sure, the bard is meant to get his toes stepped on a lot, but he could at least buff. Meh, I'm of the opinion the bard needs a little remix anyway to support the added existence an Agent class.


Finally, and I think it's in the background already, but it's good to say it explicitly: D&D combat is based around the idea of combined arms. In a wargame, you send up the armor to hold the line, support them with some fast-moving skirmishers to shore up the weak points, and leave the squishy artillery in the back. Sounds like fighters, rogues, casters to me, and we should respect that balance of forces, no matter how much we like some archetype. The fun comes from figuring out how the pieces fit together. When the initiative dice hit the table, to steal Rhyvurg's expression, everyone does their thing. I'd like to see the fighter do stuff out of combat more than I'd like to see more combat abilities added on, and that's what all the skill stuff jikiru included is supposed to handle.

Rhyvurg
2011-05-22, 09:10 PM
While I agree with just about everything you pull out (and it's kinda hard to get that across when there's so much more to be said about what I don't agree with), these are kinda weird claims.

Fair enough.


Wizard, druid and cleric are all T1, and we're not trying to build a T1 fighter. Comparing a fighter to any T1, or even T2 for that matter, is just a bad basis for argument. This is especially the case when we consider the existing fantasy literature, though from this perspective, it might not be a bad idea to tone down the T1s and T2s and leave all the classic Gandalfs and Sarumans in major epic artifact territory (you know, like play E6 or something).

I actually agree with you, but my points about what I feel fighters should be is only in regards to the combat ability of the classes. A wizard can still make walls, charm enemies, facilitate travel, craft items, and a thousand other things that can be done out of combat. And that list only got bigger with every splatbook. In my opinion, a fighter should be T2 during combat, but T3-4 out of combat. The balance comes from their lack of out-of-combat options. Sure they have Intimidate, but no other reason to boost Charisma and not enough skill points to make real use of it.


Good point, I'ma have to retract my overly straightforwardly put statement about good will+true grit > mages vs. magic. Although to be fair, there are plenty of defensive spells that can be cast on others, such as Spell Immunity. Furthermore, True Grit always just works, and passively at that, counterspell requires a readied action, a skill check and an opposed caster level check. Still, counterspell can work on anything once your sor has dispel magic. The waters are a little muddied over which is better until some math is done.

Yes, but to get access to those defensive spells the fighter still needs a caster around. The best magic defenses are still the caster's domain.



Finally, and I think it's in the background already, but it's good to say it explicitly: D&D combat is based around the idea of combined arms. In a wargame, you send up the armor to hold the line, support them with some fast-moving skirmishers to shore up the weak points, and leave the squishy artillery in the back. Sounds like fighters, rogues, casters to me, and we should respect that balance of forces, no matter how much we like some archetype. The fun comes from figuring out how the pieces fit together. When the initiative dice hit the table, to steal Rhyvurg's expression, everyone does their thing. I'd like to see the fighter do stuff out of combat more than I'd like to see more combat abilities added on, and that's what all the skill stuff jikiru included is supposed to handle.

I agree completely, but when one of those pieces can't hold it's end up the plan falls apart. An entire class should not be eclipsed by the class feature of another. A druid's companion should not be able to replace a fighter.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-23, 05:51 AM
I take issue with the fact that this not only subsumes the existing Fighter, Barbarian, and Samurai, but also (in many ways) the Paladin, Rogue and Bard.

The Paladin's class features are completely subsumed by the varying auras available to this new Fighter; Smite Evil x/day becomes totally irrelevant when you can give the entire party +x damage without dumping a stat, and that +x damage applies to every roll, ever, because the aura doesn't have a duration (whereas Smite Evil has a plethora of limits, including alignment limits, uses per day, reliance on a particular attribute, etc). The resilience aura is also stronger than the Paladin's Divine Grace ability, combined with the Gift of Grace feat without the drawbacks of that feat, not counting the fact that Divine Grace is dependent on WIS or CHA. The Fighter also, inexplicably, gets better Will saves than a Paladin, Divine Grace or otherwise. True Grit imitates (but does not completely) subsume the Paladin's Divine Health, which remains the only unique ability that wasn't completely outclassed by a single class feature of the new Fighter. If you wanted to switch from this Fighter to a Paladin, you'd lose a step in hit dice, two skill points per level (not counting competence bonuses), a good save, and a plethora of awesome abilities for... A slightly better True Grit, and weaker Undead Turning and divine spells than a Cleric.

The Bard's Bardic Knowledge is subsumed by the "key skill" competence bonuses (which apply also to "key skills" gained through feats). Inspire Courage's features are subsumed by individual auras (which produce a single effect of Inspire Courage, but stronger; for instance, instead of getting a +4 to saves involving fear-based effects, the party instead gets +5 to all saves; furthermore, this is a permanent effect that exists as long as the aura, which doesn't take up standard actions like Bardic Song does). Inspire Competence is subsumed by Follow My Lead (which, again, is gained as a swift action that occurs constantly, and has none of Inspire Competence's limitations). Suggestion isn't subsumed, but Suggestion-equivalent applications of epic Diplomacy checks are easily reachable when Diplomacy is a key skill of your fighting style (and it's always a key skill of your fighting style, if you choose to expend a feat on it). Components of Greatness and Heroics are subsumed by auras. Since the auras themselves have no limitations (swift action to change, no action to maintain, no time limit, no usage limit), being able to copy even one quality at a time for 24 hours a day is better than spending three full rounds to give worse versions of two qualities at a time for... Three hours. With a usage limit, and ranks in Perform (didgeridoo).

Skills aren't to the Bard's advantage either, because they only gain two more skill points per level than new Fighter, but new Fighter gets a +20 competence bonus on four skills, plus a +5 bonus with the right aura (given that they stack). For a single feat, the Fighter gets +20-25 on two more skills, since they also count as "key skills". Example: I play a "Social Rogue" Fighter and take the Commanding style. Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive become "key skills" for me, and I get the appropriate skill bonuses to each. I decide I want to be stealthy, so as one of my standard feats I take Stealthy Commando--and instantly gain the same competence bonus to Hide and Move Silently (which, at level 17, is +20). Finally, I decide that I also want to become a survivalist, so I take Savage Warrior, for another +20 bonus to Knowledge (nature) and Survival. I then use my 4+Int+Misc skill points/level on a bunch of other skills, like Jump, Tumble (it's cross-class, but who cares, I just got eight +20 bonuses, so I have skill points to spare), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Ride, and, just so the Bard doesn't feel at all useful, Perform (didgeridoo). My party enjoys the +5 bonus to every skill that is a "key skill" for my martial class (a list which includes Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge (nature) and Survival), even if it's explicitly ruled that I don't (because of stacking issues or whatever). Don't worry, I won't feel terribly bad about using two feats on "skill monkey" feats, because Martial Aptitude means I don't ever have to be judicious with the eleven bonus feats Fighters already get, and besides, I'm the "skill monkey" of the group anyway. That's right--Fighters are doing "skill monkey" better than Rogue or Bard, so instead of picking Rogue or Bard, I picked "back-up Fighter/skill monkey variant". I'm not even sure if I get competence bonuses from the second and third fighting styles with an 8- and 16-level delay, but if I do, it's just worse.

To play a Bard, I am trading three levels of Hit Dice, one level of BAB, no saves (I lose Fort but gain Ref), a plethora of good class features (which subsume my relatively bad features) and skill proficiency to cast spells worse than a Cleric or Sorcerer, which makes me a slightly durable, but otherwise much worse version of the Mystic Theurge.

With the exception of trapfinding and trapsense, Rogue is completely subsumed by Cunning Fighter; you can use one of the eleven bonus feats you get over Rogue to take Martial Study for something killer, then take Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance. Congratulations--you now have Sneak Attack +8d6, plus a cool Martial Strike from Martial Study, and you're still nine feats up on the Rogue (and those feats can all be retrained with Martial Aptitude). Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are Fighter bonus feats now, so if you thought those class features were worth anything, congratulations! You've successfully imitated another Rogue trait, and you're still up seven feats (remembering that these can be retrained anyhow).

Rogues don't even get the benefit of having better skill choices. If you're making a "skill monkey" Rogue Fighter, take Cunning Rogue for Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local) and Sleight of Hand, then take Fighting Commando for Hide and Move Silently, and, if you want to go social, Noble Knight for Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility & royalty). You no longer have to invest in these skills (and can even let other people ride sidesaddle thanks to auras), so you can take Disable Device or Open Lock cross-class (or just invest another feat from a non-core book to make them class abilities) and congratulations! You're a Rogue, with better armor and martial abilities. Also, for some reason, you have a better Will save than the guy whose only job is to be cunning and intelligent. Stronger mind?

To switch from this Fighter to a Rogue, I lose three levels of hit dice, one level of BAB, one good save, a plethora of class skills, and skill proficiency (!!!!!) and gain... Trapsense. Oh, and 2d6 Sneak Attack, technically (though a Rogue is never able to feint as a free action as a class ability, so Sneak Attack comes less freely; oh, and a Rogue doesn't get an aura that increases damage for itself and others for free, or free unlimited access to Tome of Battle's martial abilities for extra delicious damage).

Really, the only reason that this Fighter doesn't simultaneously subsume the Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade from Tome of Battle, what with its ability to select as many (or as few) Martial Strikes, Boosts and Counters with repeated use of Martial Study and judicious use of Martial Aptitude is because, technically, the Fighter still only gains half progression on initiator levels (meaning you only get eleven free Martial Strikes/Boosts/Counters a day from the fifth level and lower), so there may be three or four people left in this world who would trade the unprecedented power of the Fighter in order to get Time Stands Still for two full attack actions (which Swordsage gets at level 17 from the Diamond Mind school)... Though these people aren't getting full attack actions as standard actions, or feints as free actions, or access to three different types of rage (interchangeable as a swift action with Martial Aptitude and Change of Tactics), or any of the other goodies that Fighters get.

I can't help but commend the sheer amount of thought and effort that obviously went into this whole thread, but... Was balance ever a concern for you?

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-23, 06:59 PM
To be fair, He's already fixed the rogue to be more powerful. The Paladin already needed fixing, as well. I do, however, agree that the combat aura might need definitely needs a bit of powering down. I myself think the Bard needs a fix anyway, despite how it's supposed to be back on its feet after CA, CS and such.

Additionally, the Cunning Fighter is kind of superfluous, since you already made a rogue fix. Just give it some of the Cunning Fighter abilities, and there you have it. I also think that the Marshall is well taken care of with T.G. Oskar's fix, so the Commanding Fighter might not be necessary either. Indeed, the Combat Aura might just be an obstacle in the way of this class being at its best.

Although, I must point out that Martial Study can only be taken three times. It specifically says so in the description in ToB.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-23, 07:04 PM
To be fair, He's already fixed the rogue to be more powerful. The Paladin already needed fixing, as well. I do, however, agree that the combat aura might need definitely needs a bit of powering down. I myself think the Bard needs a fix anyway, despite how it's supposed to be back on its feet after CA, CS and such.

Yeah, the bard does need a homebrew from Jiriku. He gave the rogue, swashbuckler, paladin, knight, monk, and fighter some serious upgrades, and while this evens them out with the full casters, the bard is lagging behind.

Okuno
2011-05-24, 11:59 AM
In my opinion, a fighter should be T2 during combat, but T3-4 out of combat.
Firstly, the tier system doesn't discriminate by activity performed, but let's go with your plan anyway, for the sake of argument. A T2-in-combat fighter would be around sorcerer. A sorcerer can Love's Pain a dragon to death without even ever being on the same plane. That's not something I want the fighter to do. Bring the casters down, not the fighters up. In fact, this is the idea behind jikiru's homebrew system: get the PCs at T3 or 4.


I agree completely, but when one of those pieces can't hold it's end up the plan falls apart. An entire class should not be eclipsed by the class feature of another.
Yeah, thus I still need to find an elegant workaround for dominate so the fighter can hold the line. This doesn't mean let the fighter massacre orcs from afar like a caster (though he could massacre them up-close and personal).


Yes, but to get access to those defensive spells the fighter still needs a caster around. The best magic defenses are still the caster's domain.
Yep, they do require casters, and that's part of the combined arms. If a wizard is gonna fight the big illithid, he may want to consider what would happen if his trusty fighter gets mind-controlled... perhaps some generosity is in order. Considering the best (non-broken) wizards are area control and buff, it falls to the fighter to kill stuff, not go all T2 and wreck the battlefield with self-generated immunity. It's not like T1 is any more powerful than T2, just T2s have strategies that are more predictable, hence better handleable by the DM.


A druid's companion should not be able to replace a fighter.
There is not better agree. Except that shapeshift is bad too. Fun, but yucky for the fighter.


I take issue with the fact that this not only subsumes the existing Fighter, Barbarian, and Samurai, but also (in many ways) the Paladin, Rogue and Bard.
Yeah, the paladin which was always part of the fighter class (but sucks 3.0+), the rogue, which is mainly supposed to be an out-of-combat skillmonkey, not a dps with its sneak attacks, and the bard, which I agree with.

Good homework, though. It really points out what needs to be done to ensure roles.

A defense of the skill bonii, however: they're competence bonuses, so they don't stack with magic items; they're meant to reduce the fighter's reliance on magic, which the vanilla fighter is notorious for having to do. So you don't need Boots of Jumping and a Nosering of Cartwheels? Great, spend that gold on a weapon, like a fighter's supposed to.

Now, the feats are tl;dr, so I'm surprised to find you can just add key skills with them. Regardless of balance, which sure looks silly, it degrades your choice of combat style. Why should Heimdall get to sneak about at level 1? It seems like the system should make cunning fighters into the stealth commandos, not the other styles.


Bardic Knowledge is subsumed by the "key skill" competence bonuses
Qua...? Bardic knowledge doesn't simulate any skill, it's like its own skill that no other class can get (even cc), and you don't have to buy.

---
Now, though I see the problem of fighters sloshing over each other, and then over other classes, I'm going to take a stand on the number of skill points:

Ever boost a fighter's int to gain more skill points? Unlikely, so a fighter can max a whopping two skills. Let's see what that fighter might like to do, to even be fighter-y: climb, jump, intimidate, ride, maybe swim. And if you want to have a backstory like being a farmer or stablehand, then you're really screwed.

Here's the deal: the difference between lowest and highest skill points is a factor of 4. The factor for average hp is 2.6. For saves and BAB it's 2. What gives skills such a wide variance compared to other numbers? Nothing rational, that's for sure. If you give the rogue 8-10 skill points per level (plus int, which rogues actually use), then no class should have less than 4+int per level.

Oh, and

Was balance ever a concern for you?
I know you probably don't background check people, but jikiru has a massive overhaul. Balance, especially feat balance) for him is going to be different than core.

Still, as I copy text into word, I'm trying to bring the class into a better alignment with core so that it can be used more modularly with other rules.

Here's some changes I'm making now: only two key skills per combat style. You might as well be handing some of the styles no-slot, no-pain relics x4.

I say, the barbarian gets Knowledge (nature) and survival (you see Aragorn listen to the ground, but that seems survival-y, not listen-y; not all barbarians jump around). Commnader gets Sense Motive and a choice of intimidate or diplomacy (Sun Tzu says you need to know and control your troops, but bluff? no general controls his armies with bluff (though he might make his counter-intel control his opponent)). It's hard to decide for the cunning fighter, but I'm thinking Bluff and Sleight of Hand (the former for feint and the latter for palming those shivs; leave the info gathering to the secret agent-y class). For the Disciplined fighter, remove spot (it's weird, and concentration and iaijutsu focus come up only so often that he can have both for the price of one). I'll have to figure out the watchful fighter, but at least (and maybe just) remove intimidate. If I'm reading right (actually, I'm not, but it still doesn't seem like their scaling stuff is up to snuff) the weapon master doesn't get anything that scales like the skill boosts. I'd say "In addition, you may choose one of your class skills as a key skill."

I've already dropped the will save, but that's contentious anyway. I've dropped the hit die to d10 except for barbarian ansd watchman (oh, I guess I should say I'm massaging the names for easier use). Changes I'm planning to make are rework the cavalry mount to something that has good RAW, probably enhance True Grit to deal with enchantments until I find a way to nerf the enchantments themselves. I've yet to sift the feats, but I know those add key skill feats will be dropped along with anything else that destroys each style's niche too much.

I vote to nerf the aura a bit, but bring the bard up to compensate, too, so that's a complex task. Here's what I'm thinking for a rough pass: (1) bring range down to 5ft per class level; (2) uses per day roughly equal with bard's (maybe equal to (2*auras known) + cha bonus minimum 2 or 3, which might be complicated/MAD/weak, but it might let me keep roughly the same math for the specific auras); (3) give them a time limit, or to mix 2&3, give a number of minutes per day that the auras can be active; (4) Resilient Troops = bonus to one save, not all of them; (5) not let Hardy Soldiers stack the DR; (6) you might double the bonus from Follow my lead if it were competence, and circumstance is a weird modifier type considering the fluff screams morale and/or competence; (7) some bard stuff.

Remember also that already the bard can use any music, but the fighter has to choose carefully which auras he knows. If the fighter chose the wrong aura for the situation, it's like the ability isn't even there. Which reminds me, (8) give some of that stuff level requirements. Say your first aura must be one of Weather the Storm, Resilient Troops, Motivate Urgency or Follow my Lead. Then you can't take Motivate Care or Motivate Ardor (possibly also hardy Soldiers) until your third aura. I wouldn't reduce the math because of it though.

Now, if it seems like nerfing the auras (a fairly major class feature) nerfs the class down below target tier, I vote we extend Exceptional Strength to even better bonuses. That won't step on any toes (I'm starting to hate that expression).

Questions: projecting a combat aura is a swift action, does this mean initiating it or also sustaining it? I vote sustain for tactics: then the fighter has to choose between his swift/immediate action options and improves the relative value of the capstone.
Nitpicks: Under Weather the Storm, you have "all... energy types:... or sonic". Definitely supposed to be "and".

Dralnu
2011-05-24, 01:48 PM
I think many people would agree that they'd love to see all the core classes remastered so they're both fun and balanced. Personally, however, I keep an eye on what power level they're balanced. I'd like to keep things upper tier 4 to low tier 3.

Why this balance? For the DM's sake. That power level, in my opinion, is fairly easy to build encounters around. You can pick up classic premade campaigns like Red Hand of Doom and run it no problem. I've ran, and participated in, RHOD games played straight out of the box with a mix of t4 and low t3 classes (Barbarian, binder, duskblade, rogue, completely unoptimized healing druid, scout) and the experience was smooth as butter. It doesn't matter that a class is "tier 4" if they're all the same power level, they'll all feel equally badass.

At the same time, I've seen what the upper tier 3 classes can do to campaigns. Warblade and Dread Necromancer specifically. It's not pretty. As the DM, you really need to sit down and spend a lot more time crafting challenges for these characters. Some DMs simply can't do it, especially the newer ones, and it's very discouraging when that happens. I shudder to think what an optimized tier 1-2 class does to a campaign when they have all their toys available. I thankfully never had to experience such a thing in a real session.

Therefore, my personal design philosophy when approaching homebrew:
1) Is this class fun?
2) How much of a potential headache is this class for a DM?


I understand that some people want their homebrew at the upper tier 3, or even tier 2 level. They may have high-powered gaming sessions and want to bring something competitive to their tables. That's absolutely fine. I'm just saying that personally, this is what I'm looking for. Something my players can bring to one of the premade campaigns I bought and fit in smoothly.

A final note: switching tiers is fairly easy, in most cases. You keep all the abilities and just tweak the numbers. Blahblah aura is tier 3 when it gives +6? Make it give +3 instead.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-24, 05:02 PM
Yeah, the paladin which was always part of the fighter class (but sucks 3.0+), the rogue, which is mainly supposed to be an out-of-combat skillmonkey, not a dps with its sneak attacks, and the bard, which I agree with.

If this Fighter can do it better, it subsumes it. As far as I can see, Fighter does an exceptional job of out-of-combat skillmonkey here, so Rogue is subsumed by it. (Note that I made reference to my complaint about skills with the Bard when listing complaints about the Rogue; I just didn't feel like repeating myself.)


A defense of the skill bonii, however: they're competence bonuses, so they don't stack with magic items; they're meant to reduce the fighter's reliance on magic, which the vanilla fighter is notorious for having to do. So you don't need Boots of Jumping and a Nosering of Cartwheels? Great, spend that gold on a weapon, like a fighter's supposed to.

Now, the feats are tl;dr, so I'm surprised to find you can just add key skills with them. Regardless of balance, which sure looks silly, it degrades your choice of combat style. Why should Heimdall get to sneak about at level 1? It seems like the system should make cunning fighters into the stealth commandos, not the other styles.

I'm aware that they don't stack with magic items. The fact that you don't need Boots of Jumping or Nosering of Cartwheels or Frilly Pink Blouse of Balance just means that any such money will instead be spent on magic items that accentuate their strengths. That's all fine and dandy, but it seems to do two things to me: First, it devalues the magic item system (magic items for skill bonus on Jump? I've got magic feet for that), and second, it devalues the skill system. Here's what I mean.

At level 17, the Fighter gains Mastery VI of his style. It is at this point that any of the four (count 'em, four) skills that are key class skills for this style get a +20 bonus, and furthermore, the Fighter can "take 20" on these skills without increasing the time of use, even under averse conditions. That means that, even under extreme conditions, a Commander can be assumed to have a result of at least 39 on every Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive check (untrained, 8 CHA/WIS, no synergies), and a Watchful Fighter can be assumed to have a result of 39 on their Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive and Spot checks (untrained, 8 CHA/WIS, no synergies), and so on.

To put things in perspective, here are things that a Fighter will be able to do by level 17, as a result of class abilities, skill synergies, or decent stats:

Diplomacy:
Change a Hostile person's attitude to "friendly" or an Unhelpful person's attitude to "helpful": A Fighter with Diplomacy as a key skill can do this automatically.
Change a Helpful person's attitude to "fanatic": 10 ranks (or the equivalent in stat bonus to CHA, or skill synergies to Diplomacy, of which there are many, or 5 + aura) + free "take 20" + 20 competence bonus = 50 DC check auto-passed
Change a Hostile person's attitude to "helpful": 10 ranks (see "Helpful" to "Fanatic") = 50 DC check auto-passed
Change a Friendly person's attitude to "fanatic": 20 ranks (or equivalent in bonuses) + free "take 20" + 20 competence bonus = 60 DC check auto-passed

Gather Information:
Avoid arousing suspicion: Assumed to always have a result of at least 20 (free "take 20" + 20 competence bonus - 20 penalty to check to avoid suspicion, plus ranks/stat bonuses). With the aura, this result is 25.

Handle Animal:
Rear and train a magical beast: Can always do this as long as the total bonuses to the skill are equal to the creature's HD (for example, to be able to rear and train a Displacer Beast, the Fighter's skill ranks and bonuses must equal +6). The DC for rearing is 30+HD, and the DC for training is 40+HD. With the skill bonus from the aura, a Fighter with 1 rank in Handle Animal can rear and train a Displacer Beast.
Rear and train vermin: Can always do this as long as the total bonuses to the skill are equal to 10 + the creature's HD (to train a Giant Ant queen, for instance, the Fighter's skill ranks and bonuses must equal +14). The DC for rearing is 35+HD (the Fighter can more or less do this for free), but the DC for training is 50+HD.
Rear any creature: Can do this under any circumstance where a Fighter can train a magical beast, since the DC is also 40+HD. Training is difficult; the DC is 60+HD.
Reduce training time to 1 month (any skill): The Fighter can do this automatically, as the DC is 25 + existing DC of task, except for combat-related activities, in which case the Fighter needs at least a +5 bonus from skill ranks (remember that swift action aura!). Reducing training time to 1 day is possible, but not likely (the DC is 50 + existing DC of task).

Hide:
Hide another: The Fighter can hide another with a -30 penalty to his check, and so can be assumed to have a result of 10 with no stat bonuses or ranks (15 with aura).

Intimidate:
Intimidate a fanatic: The Fighter can automatically Intimate a Fanatic for which the DC check would normally be less than 20 (Fanatic's DC modifier is +20).

Jump:
Jump has no epic uses, but a Fighter can automatically jump 10 feet vertically, or 40 feet horizontally, without ranks or aura (11 vertical and 45 horizontal with aura).

Ride:
Stand on mount: A Fighter can automatically do this ("take 20" + 20 competence bonus = DC 40).
Unconscious control: A Fighter can do this with 10 ranks, or the equivalent in DEX bonuses, skill synergies, and auras. (DC 50)
Attack from cover: A Fighter can do this with 20 ranks, or the equivalent with DEX bonuses, skill synergies, and auras. (DC 60)

Sense Motive:
Discern partial alignment: A Fighter can do this with 20 ranks, or the equivalent in WIS bonuses, skill synergies and auras. (DC 60)

Sleight of Hand:
Steal weapon: A Fighter can steal a creature's weapon without them knowing it as long as the Fighter has at least 10 ranks, or the equivalent in DEX bonuses, skill synergies and auras. (DC 50)

Spellcraft (requires Arcane Hunter feat):
Identify item: A Fighter can identify magical properties of an item, as with the identify spell, with a DC check of 50 + caster level (and so needs a total of 10 + caster level ranks, synergies, etc).
Quick identification of potions: A Fighter can identify a potion's properties as a full-round action without an alchemical lab with 10 ranks, or the equivalent in INT bonuses, skill synergies, and auras.

Spot:
Detect invisible creature or object: A Fighter can automatically detect the presence of an unmoving, non-living, invisible creature or object. Further, a Fighter can pinpoint the exact location of an active invisible creature automatically, or the exact location of an unmoving (but living) invisible creature with 10 or more ranks (5 with aura). The DC for detecting an active invisible creature is 20; immobile invisible creature, 30; and inanimate invisible object (or unmoving, unliving creature), 40. Pinpointing the exact location can be done if you beat the DC by 20.
Read lips while moving at full speed: A Fighter can automatically read a subject's lips (increase DC check by 20).
Pronounce unfamiliar language: A Fighter can automatically do this (increase DC check by 20).

Survival:
Get along in the wild at full speed: A Fighter can automatically provide himself food and water while moving at full speed (no impairment of movement). A Fighter can extend this benefit to 1 party member for every two ranks, or equivalent in bonuses to Survival. The DC is 40 + 2/person.
Automatically pass Fortitude saves for weather, and ignore movement penalties: A Fighter can do this with 20 ranks in Survival (or the equivalent in bonuses, yada yada).

These were taken from the Epic Skills page of the SRD. Anything less than an epic-level check is pretty much automatically passed; I checked.

Many epic-level skill checks (like turning someone into a Fanatic), a Fighter with that skill as a key skill can just automatically "do" by taking 20 for free, even if it's an untrained skill. At level 17, when you first get the ability, you can start turning people into fanatics, which seems a little... Off. Further, if you really wanted to delve into epic-level skill uses, you could actually invest some ranks into these epic skills, grab skill synergies, etc. Then, you can Spellcraft better than your party Wizard, Move Silently better than your party Rogue could ever hope to do, and so on. Really, anything with a DC of 65 or less (counting skill ranks and aura, but not counting skill synergies and attribute bonuses) is an "auto-pass" if you invested maximum ranks in that skill; by level 20, anything with a DC of 70 or less is an "auto-pass" if you have +2 in skill synergies or an attribute bonus of +2, with maximum ranks.


Qua...? Bardic knowledge doesn't simulate any skill, it's like its own skill that no other class can get (even cc), and you don't have to buy.

EDIT: I kerfuffled. A Fighter can "take 40" on half the core Knowledge checks (and often overlap Bardic Knowledge with things like local and nobility/royalty), but cannot ever directly emulate Bardic Knowledge.


Now, though I see the problem of fighters sloshing over each other, and then over other classes, I'm going to take a stand on the number of skill points:

Ever boost a fighter's int to gain more skill points? Unlikely, so a fighter can max a whopping two skills.

Assume I'm making a "skill monkey" updated Fighter, instead of a "skill monkey" Rogue. Just go with me here on this. I'm Human both ways, and I have an INT of 16. (Great, but not caster-equivalent.) We won't take Nymph's Kiss, even though it's good for skill monkeys.

"Skill monkey" Rogue gets 12 skill points per level, and a wide range of skills with which to apply them. Great for "Skill monkey" Rogue; I mean, he's not that great in combat, but at least he's got this going for him, right?

"Skill monkey" Fighter gets 8 skill points per skill level, and his range of applicable skills is limited. But wait! We're making an optimized Skill Monkey, and we want him to be "roguish", so I choose Cunning Fighter, and gain Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local) and Sleight of Hand as key skills. Along the way, I pick up Noble Knight (Diplomacy and Knowledge N&R), Quickdraw Duelist (Iajitsu Focus and Sense Motive), Savage Warrior (Knowledge Nature and Survival), and Stealthy Commando (Hide and Move Silently) as core feats, knowing that I've got 11 Fighter feats to worry about all the fighting stuff (unlike a Rogue, who... Doesn't). I may have four fewer skill points per level than "Skill monkey" Rogue, but unlike the Rogue, I will never need to put points into Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), Sleight of Hand, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Iajitsu Focus, Sense Motive, Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Hide or Move Silently, because the bonuses scale with me as competence bonuses, and I can take 10 and even 20 with them as I level through. I also always have the skill aura on while out-of-combat, because I'm the "skill monkey". By level 17, I already "take 45" on all these skills, with attribute being the only variant, so instead of investing skills in them, I invest in utility skills that a Roguish character might need (as I've got more skills to invest cross-class, and can ignore 12 skills that I'll be "taking 45" on) or just grab whatever I feel like.

I'm doing more "skill monkey" stuff than a Rogue ever could. If I wanted, I could take Disable Device, Open Lock and Disguise cross-class, thus eating up all the key skills for Rogues, and still have more skill utility than a Rogue with only my Fighter bonuses to go on.

Oh, and I also have Sneak Attack +8d6 and can feint with "take 40" on Bluff as a free action, so I'm even doing the Rogue's one combat trick better than a Rogue ever could (though I was doing more damage than the Rogue ever could anyway).

While I'm talking about skills in combat... I suppose I could do some pretty stupid things in combat too. If I choose Disciplined or Weapon Master, I gain Concentration as a class and key skill; I can then pump ranks into Concentration (this probably isn't the "Skill monkey" Fighter talking, but just any Fighter in general), take a one- or two-level dip into Swordsage (for the double progression in initiator level) and take a feat for Martial Study, granting myself Greater Insightful Strike and doing twice my Concentration check roll in damage. Since I had planned for this strategy through to level 20, I put 23 points in Concentration, have a good CON modifier (let's say it's +7 after item bonuses, because I like round numbers), am using the skill aura (which is an equivalent to the +damage aura, but applies to this strike), and I "take 20" with the +20 competence bonus and no other modifiers. My strike will be doing an automatic 150 damage. Even if I don't dip into Swordsage or Warblade, I can still grab Insightful Strike for an automatic 75 damage. If I'd like, I can do both (taking Martial Study twice). If I get bored, I can waive them away with Martial Aptitude and bring them back whenever I want with... Martial Aptitude.


Here's the deal: the difference between lowest and highest skill points is a factor of 4. The factor for average hp is 2.6. For saves and BAB it's 2. What gives skills such a wide variance compared to other numbers? Nothing rational, that's for sure. If you give the rogue 8-10 skill points per level (plus int, which rogues actually use), then no class should have less than 4+int per level.

The level of importance placed on skills pales in comparison to the level of importance placed on HP and BAB. Ask yourself this question: Which is better, a Fighter, or a Fighter with a Rogue's BAB and skill points/level (nothing else changed)? How about a Fighter with a Rogue's HP and skill points/level?

My guess is that you're going to choose straight Fighter, because giving up HP or BAB for skill points is counter-intuitive to being a fighter. I mean, great, you can pick locks, but now you can't take a hit from the troll with the club, or land a hit against the backside of a gazebo.

EDIT: I should probably note that I am not opposed to having a Fighter get 4 + INT bonus skill points per level, normally. What I am opposed to is the Fighter getting 4 + INT bonus skill points per level, plus a way to get more than a dozen skills treated as class skills and "key skills", plus the insane competence bonuses and the "Improved Skill Mastery" benefit for your "key skills". You should never, ever be allowed to "take 40"/"take 45" on a dozen different skills as a class feature/class feature plus "class-only" feats, especially when that's only a secondary feature of a single class ability on a class which gets six or seven even better class abilities. No thanks.


I know you probably don't background check people, but jikiru has a massive overhaul. Balance, especially feat balance) for him is going to be different than core.

Then I hope he comes up with epic revisions for the Paladin, Rogue and Bard, because I see no reason to play them over Fighter unless they're scaled up drastically.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-24, 06:01 PM
On the subject of Will saves for fighters: I think the idea that "fighters traditionally have weak mental saves" and "fighters should have weak will" and so forth is complete and total bunk. I don't mean from a pop-cultural perspective--though pop culture certainly disagrees as well, take a look at Conan, Aragorn, and most other hit-things-with-metal protagonists--I'm just talking about D&D tradition here.

In 1e, the fighter's base "Will save" (save vs. spells/save vs. rod) was only 3 points behind his base "Fort save" (save vs. polymorph/save vs. death magic) on average at 1st level, and only 1 point behind on average at the highest levels. In fact, starting around level 10ish, a fighter's "Will saves" pulled ahead of the cleric's, and his base "Reflex save" (save vs. breath weapons) was better than the thief's by level 5! Fighters started out with poor Will saves, sure, but their saves advanced fastest (every 2 levels, as opposed to every 3 for the cleric, every 4 for the thief, and every 5 for the magic-user) and by the endgame (levels 17 and up) they had among the best saves.

If you look at all the last numbers on the saving throw chart (level 17+ for fighters, 19+ for clerics, and 21+ for thieves and magic-users), fighters had 4 of their 5 base saves better than clerics (all but Death Magic) and 3 of 5 better than thieves and magic-users (Rod and Spells)--and if you just look at level 17-18, the fighter had saves equal to or better than every other class in every single category. In the first five levels, when the fighter and its subclasses have traditionally been better than the other classes for the most part, yes, the fighter has weak Will saves; it's a good weakness in an otherwise-amazing class. When dominate person comes online at level 9, however, the fighter has as good a save as the cleric and thief (only worse than the magic-user by 2), and by the time the truly dangerous Will-targeting Enchantment and Illusion spells come online (mass versions of hold X and dominate X, the power words, and so forth), it's actually the clerics and thieves you need to worry about until you hit "epic levels" at 21st.

So if this fix is actually "doin' it old-school," the fighter should not only have a better-than-poor Will, he should have better-than-poor Ref as well. Granted, it should probably be done through a Grace- or Battle Fortitude-type ability to approximate a medium save (so he ends up with +12 Fort, +9 Ref, +9 Will), rather than giving good Ref and Will, since all good saves is one of the few things the monk has and otherwise the fighter becomes a bit too dippable with the new class features and all. Whether you go with good or medium saves, though, the fighter should not have, and never has had, exceptionally poor reflexes and strength of will.

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-24, 06:03 PM
He already has. Check his Signature. He combined the Knight and Paladin into a class, the Rogue and Swashbuckler into one class, and the Ranger and Scout into one class, for one thing. Although, again, he should probably just get rid of the Cunning Fighter and export its features onto the rogue/swashbuckler, as it still needs a bit more crunch. In addition, I like other Paladin fixes better than his. The Ranger, though, was possibly his first masterpiece IMHO.

Also, the 'take 20' is only usable once per encounter. I myself also don't see much wrong with devaluing the magic item system. Really, most (not all, but most) of the things that you're complaining about with the ultra-high DC's are not that big a problem. Also, keep in mind that Spellcraft is not a key skill for any fighting style, and as such it can't benefit from the bonuses or 10's and 20's. In addition, the +20 bonuses can be easily gained from magic items.

Still, I do think that Combat Aura is too much.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-24, 07:25 PM
He already has. Check his Signature. He combined the Knight and Paladin into a class, the Rogue and Swashbuckler into one class, and the Ranger and Scout into one class, for one thing. Although, again, he should probably just get rid of the Cunning Fighter and export its features onto the rogue/swashbuckler, as it still needs a bit more crunch. In addition, I like other Paladin fixes better than his. The Ranger, though, was possibly his first masterpiece IMHO.

I will check them out then; however, it's important to note that I still think this class is imbalanced, and would not pass the DM test of "would I allow this to be houseruled in?"


Also, the 'take 20' is only usable once per encounter.

That's still a free free-action feint (bluff with Sneak Attack) or one-shot kill (Concentration and Insightful Strike/Greater) once per encounter, and with the +20 competence bonus, you're still going to pass most in-combat checks for free. I don't see any out-of-combat restrictions.


I myself also don't see much wrong with devaluing the magic item system.

It takes away the element of choice. "Skills or battle prowess?" becomes an irrelevant choice, because skills in their totality are covered by class features, meaning all your magic items are going to focus on combat prowess. When you are a combat-oriented class that gets "half your skills are auto-pass" as a class feature, it skews the balance away from emphasizing some talents over others.

Imagine if, instead of having to choose between combat prowess and magic, they house-ruled True Strike to be 1hr/lvl self-buff that gave +1 BAB/2 levels and an extra iterative attack every ten levels! Now you can eat cake AND ice cream!


Really, most (not all, but most) of the things that you're complaining about with the ultra-high DC's are not that big a problem.

They're not a problem because they imply an epic-level difficulty. Being able to turn someone into a fanatic is one thing if it's something that is appropriately difficult, requires a lot of concentrated effort, and is perhaps even impossible without a number of circumstance bonuses and the like; it's another thing entirely when you can, as a secondary class feature that requires no investment, wave your over someone's eyes, say "you're my fanatic," and have them respond (without fail) with "I'm your fanatic." The concept of "skill difficulty" is devalued entirely. (I'm ignoring skills that aren't epic-level, because all of them are auto-pass simply by virtue of the competence bonus.)


Also, keep in mind that Spellcraft is not a key skill for any fighting style, and as such it can't benefit from the bonuses or 10's and 20's.

The Arcane Hunter feat.


In addition, the +20 bonuses can be easily gained from magic items.

But now, doesn't need to be. Instead of wasting your boot slot on Boots of Jumping in order to perform epic-equivalent Jump checks, you equip "Boots of Kicking Rear Really, Really Hard +6" and make epic-level checks as a secondary class feature.

Still, I do think that Combat Aura is too much.[/QUOTE]

Okuno
2011-05-24, 07:48 PM
I should probably note that I am not opposed to having a Fighter get 4 + INT bonus skill points per level, normally. What I am opposed to is the Fighter getting 4 + INT bonus skill points per level, plus a way to get more than a dozen skills treated as class skills and "key skills", plus the insane competence bonuses and the "Improved Skill Mastery" benefit for your "key skills". You should never, ever be allowed to "take 40"/"take 45" on a dozen different skills as a class feature/class feature plus "class-only" feats, especially when that's only a secondary feature of a single class ability on a class which gets six or seven even better class abilities. No thanks.

Then you probably should have looked at the extent of my argument. Granted, some of those bounds were unstated, like ceteris paribus, but they often were quite clear.

E.g. perhaps you remember when I said "I'm surprised to find you can just add key skills with them"? If it wasn't clear, lemme translate that: "What is this load? And why?"

I proposed roughly halving the number of key skills, and removing the feats which add new key skills (a single feat for two good magic items? Yeah, that does devalue the magic item system, no argument there). I bet jikiru had it already, so I didn't mention it, but let's get a spiffy feat in there for Improved Skill Mastery (and restrict who can take it). And that's just skills, I say nerf the aura as well.

Now, you wanna lower the bonuses? Fewer class skills? restrictions on what activities the bonus count for? Free ranks instead of competence bonuses? Fair enough, but let's get the obvious stuff (which btw, goes beyond skills) out of the way and re-evaluate as we go.

If you really want a coronary over bonuses, check out jikiru's monk. ^o^

Throw a bunch in a spoiler 'cause it's fairly unimportant:

Now, a couple random bits: You're often not addressing me, though you quote me. It's a strange argumentative style to use me as a vicarious target, but whatever, I'll shoot back.

My "Qua?" stands. Throw away the key skill feats, the fighter doesn't get any special bonuses on knowledge, no overlap with bardic knowledge.

Then, along the same lines, considering the skill monkeys comparison, the fighter I'm considering gets two skills he can ignore. The rogue uses gold to supplement because he doesn't need to concentrate on his weapon and armor.

Along other lines, give the rogue 10 + int skill points per level. That's par for the course with this system.

Then to fighter capabilities, you claim a 17th level fighter can attack from cover while riding a mount. I bloody well hope so. I might appreciate your honesty if you hadn't obscured that little fact in giant absurdity tags. Same with jump. Most of the rest disappear when you actually consider what I'm arguing.


Now, you've listed a ton of things the fighter can do with it's bonuses. I'm going to take the shorter, more informative route of seeing what the fighter can do with the recouped opportunity cost. Remember, I'm considering the fighter with two key skills.

Here's a table that shows how much the fighter's skill bonuses are worth in gp at important levels. In other words, this is how much he can improve other items he has (you know, because the point is to reduce magic item dependence). Let's also have some info about WBL and a comparison column to show the percent saved.
{table=head]Lv|Bonus|Equiv. Cost|WBL|Saved|Notes

2|+2|200|900|22%|this one can be done w/ tools

5|+5|10000|9000|111%|

9|+10|40000|36000|111%|

13|+15|90000|110000|81%|

17|+20|160000|340000|47%|
[/table]

That's all you had to show. No one here wants to double (quadruple with jikiru's RAW) the assets of a 5th level fighter, even if some of those assets aren't liquid. Verdict: reduce bonuses. Incontrovertible, really. This even explains why four key skills is too much, and it explains why two key skills per feat (or even one) is also too much.

Here's something I might use {formatted to "(level, bonus)"}: (2, +2), (8, +4), (13, +8), (15, +12), (18, +16). How did I find this? I took bonus^2*100 from the DMG table 7-33, times two for no slot dependency and another two for two key skills, times four because a 25% reduction in magic item use is nothing to scoff at, and looked up what that number most closely resembled in the WBL table.

My motto: no made up numbers!

More spoilers, 'cause it's boring:


If I choose Disciplined or Weapon Master, I gain Concentration as a class and key skill; I can then pump ranks into Concentration (this probably isn't the "Skill monkey" Fighter talking, but just any Fighter in general), take a one- or two-level dip into Swordsage (for the double progression in initiator level) and take a feat for Martial Study, granting myself Greater Insightful Strike and doing twice my Concentration check roll in damage.

Ooh, that's interesting. I'm not gonna comment much, since ToB was pretty much a fighter fix itself. OTOH, Weapon Master doesn't get any key skills (unless you're still for some reason allowing the add key skills feats), so I'm not sure where some of that is coming from. Ah, yes, and let's not forget the uberchargers.

Optimizers can wreck everything. A homebrew should spend more time worrying about the average user, you know, the ones with their ideas boxed in by names AKA the ones having fun.


Then I hope he comes up with epic revisions for the Paladin, Rogue and Bard, because I see no reason to play them over Fighter unless they're scaled up drastically.
Honestly, I've never seen reason to play paladin, particularly over cleric. And why choose bard? Because you're the fifth member and don't know what role to fill, so you just play back-up when the main drops. Rogue? Ah, well, I've handled what I think enough.

The fact is, if you're looking at a high-level vanilla campaign, just take a party of wizards and you're done. Even just plugging in jikiru's fighter as-is at time of post means you can afford a fighter in your 20th-level party, but you'd still be better off with a wizard. Now to make the rest of the classes sorta relevant for that kind of play. You make a lot of reference to the 17th level fighter; keep your pants on. Especially while we hear from more people. The creator hasn't even posted in days.



Alright, now to something that demands serious argument and not just a bunch of arithmetic ^.^


In 1e, the fighter's base "Will save" (save vs. spells/save vs. rod) was only 3 points behind his base "Fort save" (save vs. polymorph/save vs. death magic) on average at 1st level, and only 1 point behind on average at the highest levels. In fact, starting around level 10ish, a fighter's "Will saves" pulled ahead of the cleric's, and his base "Reflex save" (save vs. breath weapons) was better than the thief's by level 5! Fighters started out with poor Will saves, sure, but their saves advanced fastest (every 2 levels, as opposed to every 3 for the cleric, every 4 for the thief, and every 5 for the magic-user) and by the endgame (levels 17 and up) they had among the best saves.

Yep, the 3.Xe system has simpler saving throw progressions. Fix that, and you can bring the saves in line with tradition. That's beyond the scope of this homebrew.


When dominate person comes online...
Yep, dominate person is yucky. Again, beyond the scope...

Really, these say one thing: without remaking the system, trying to model tradition could go either way. This leaves the argument at: combined arms. This is partially manifested through (as I thought someone said already) the three basic classes each having a single, different good save.


the fighter should not have, and never has had, exceptionally poor reflexes and strength of will.

Now here is the key! You could say a bad save is "waaah, it's the worst evar!" or you could say "pshh, it's just one, measly step away", and both of these descriptions are equally valid @[email protected]

So, cut the emotion away and have at the mechanics using the principles of game design. Tradition helps make things a little more relateable to those who happen to already be there, but people will learn new traditions. What is more, it's the game in itself that brings the fun, a la:

personal design philosophy:
1) Is this class fun?
2) How much of a potential headache is this class for a DM?

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-24, 08:16 PM
Yep, the 3.Xe system has simpler saving throw progressions. Fix that, and you can bring the saves in line with tradition. That's beyond the scope of this homebrew.

Yep, dominate person is yucky. Again, beyond the scope...

Really, these say one thing: without remaking the system, trying to model tradition could go either way. This leaves the argument at: combined arms. This is partially manifested through (as I thought someone said already) the three basic classes each having a single, different good save.

I'm not saying to fix saving throws, or change dominate person, or model 2e more, or anything like that. If that's what you got out of my post, there was a failure of communication. What I am saying is simply that since 3e was created the myth has been going around that fighters are slow and weak-willed, when in fact in AD&D they were the most resilient class for most of the game. All of the people complaining about the fighter having a good Will save should realize that the fighter's "Will saves" in AD&D were off by at most 1-3 points from the fighter's Fort saves; fighters don't have "weak-willed" as part of their schtick any more than any other class does.


Now here is the key! You could say a bad save is "waaah, it's the worst evar!" or you could say "pshh, it's just one, measly step away", and both of these descriptions are equally valid @[email protected]

So, cut the emotion away and have at the mechanics using the principles of game design. Tradition helps make things a little more relateable to those who happen to already be there, but people will learn new traditions. What is more, it's the game in itself that brings the fun, a la:

Again, I don't see where you're seeing any emotional outpouring in my post; the italics and all signify emphasis, not ranting, and the numbers were there for example purposes.

If we're talking grades of saving throw, a poor Will save is technically two steps away, given that you can use a Grace- or Battle Fortitude-type ability for a pseudo-medium save. "Steps" aren't the important qualifier, though, the total modifier is. A difference of +6 at 20th level is significant, however many "steps" away from a good progression it is. Save DCs can get up to around 32 at higher levels (19 for a 9th level spell, plus 36 key stat from 18 + 4-5 level + 0-2 racial + 4-5 inherent + 6 booster), while good saves hover around +20ish (+12 from levels, +5 from a resistance item, +1 to +5 from a secondary or lower stat).

That means you usually need a roll of 13 to make the save, assuming a +2 in the stat. Drop the save mod by 6, and you need to roll a 19 to make the save. An average fighter with a 20 in Con and a 10 in Wis makes a Fort save on a 12 and has to rely on natural 20s for the Will save and hope the enemy can't make him reroll. The disparity won't always be that large, granted, but a MAD martial type going up against a SAD caster type will generally have problems with weak saves, and an extra +6 helps a lot. It is not merely "one measly step away" from a good save, it can be the difference between having a chance at making a save and getting taken out of the combat in round 1.

And, FYI, I am looking at it from a game design perspective. I fully support the decision to give fighters better saves due to sound reasons founded on principles of good game design, and have been arguing against those who object to this for unsound reasons by showing why those reasons do not have any basis. Were someone to bring up a mathematical argument as to why fighters shouldn't have good Will saves, I'd argue against it with math, but such hasn't happened thus far. It is you who is overreacting in this instance.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-24, 08:29 PM
Then you probably should have looked at the extent of my argument. Granted, some of those bounds were unstated, like ceteris paribus, but they often were quite clear.

E.g. perhaps you remember when I said "I'm surprised to find you can just add key skills with them"? If it wasn't clear, lemme translate that: "What is this load? And why?"

I'm sorry. I read it differently; I thought you were following your surprise with something along the lines of "so?", which is more akin to Gideon Falcon's sentiment than "what is this load? And why?"

It should be noted that I tend to read things in the "reply" box instead of the actual post, then reply to paragraphs individually as I've finished reading them. This is kinda more in keeping with the traditional idea that individual paragraphs represent individual thoughts and should be treated as such, rather than a more forum-friendly approach, but something I address in Paragraph 2 may be made irrelevant in Paragraph 6, which I'll get to in Paragraph 6. Oftentimes I go back and fix it before posting, and sometimes I go back and edit it with big "EDIT:" tags. Sometimes, however, I post on my phone (like I am now), and when my posts get too long, I just say "screw it" and try to choose my words more carefully in the future.

I apologize for any offenses I've caused.

Like I said, I'm on a phone, so I'll address the rest of your post later, but it seems like we're both thinking "why can't we all just agree on a happy middle ground?" so continuing the discussion with you is more likely than not to be largely semantic (I haven't read it all in-depth yet).


I proposed roughly halving the number of key skills, and removing the feats which add new key skills (a single feat for two good magic items? Yeah, that does devalue the magic item system, no argument there). I bet jikiru had it already, so I didn't mention it, but let's get a spiffy feat in there for Improved Skill Mastery (and restrict who can take it). And that's just skills, I say nerf the aura as well.

I'd be fine with that, only I'd probably keep the same range of possible skills, but say "select any one skill" instead.

Okay, I'll leave you alone now.

jiriku
2011-05-25, 12:15 PM
This is good debate, and is evolving my thinking. Going into this I'll say that I don't expect to please all of you - fixing the fighter requires too many changes for everyone to agree with all of them. However, I think we can make this a better class.

Several considerations have been raised about the remixed fighter:


The Good Will save progression may be "too good for a fighter"
Some kits are similar to but more powerful than a paladin, rogue, or bard.
The number of genre-crossing options depletes the niche value of each kit.
The key skill feature is overpowered.
The combat aura feature is overpowered.


I'm swayed by several of these concerns, and others I'm inclined to debate on their merits, so let me address each one.


The Good Will save progression may be "too good for a fighter"

Fighters are supposed to be strong-willed: resisting the evil necromancer's spell with your fury/discipline/willpower/devotion is a classic, classic, classic, staple of the genre. The Big Damn Hero always makes his save against mind-affecting magic when it counts. In fact, if you look at fantasy novelization, the fellow who usually gets dominated by the evil wizard is the guardsman or man-at-arms -- an NPC warrior.
Most Tier 3 classes get two good saves: I'm just running with the crowd here. And if I gave the fighter a good Reflex save, I guarantee people who complain about cartwheels in full plate.
They need it: Saves don't exist in a vacuum. They're part of your overall defensive strategy, which includes AC, miss chance, energy resistance, spell resistance, damage reduction, immunities, debuff and battlefield control. Fighters have fewer options in this arena than, say, a beguiler, crusader, warlock, or swordsage, so their base defenses should be stout.


Some kits are similar to but more powerful than a paladin, rogue, or bard.

Paladin and rogue are bad classes: paladins do nothing well, while rogues are frequently useless in combat and most of their class functions can be duplicated with 2nd- and 3rd-level spells. It speaks well of the fighter remix if it outshines these poor classes. Refer to my knight-paladin and daring outlaw classes for remixes of the paladin and rogue.
A commanding fighter is similar to a bard, but doesn't replace the bard: bardic music can easily be optimized to equal or outshine Combat Aura and Commanding Aura. And so what if the two are roughly comparable with skills? Each has its own strengths: the bard can be more versatile by virtue of his powerful spellcasting, while the fighter is more capable in melee combat by virtue of his bonus feats and better combat statistics. You probably wouldn't want both a commanding fighter and a bard in the same party, but it's not a no-brainer to pick the former over the latter.



The number of genre-crossing options depletes the niche value of each kit.

The kit-feats allow character customization: What if you want to play a dishonorable samurai infamous for cheating during iaijutsu duels, or a special-forces soldier skilled at wilderness survival, or a dirty-tricks pit gladiator who iai-draws against his opponents? The kit-feats function as tools that make it easy to create these character concepts.
Similar isn't bad: likewise, when such-and-such kit is similar to another class, is that a problem? You choose the option that you like. An issue only arises when one class is overdetermined because it is much better than all other choices. For example, wizard is a bad class because it fills every role and is better at all of them than almost all of the other choices in each niche.


The key skill feature is overpowered.

This argument has some weight, and I'm considering making adjustments. The mathematical argument was especially compelling, because I'm really a numbers guy.
But are we measuring with the right kind of ruler? It's easy to compare bonuses from one class to another, but looking strictly at magic item costs only produces a true comparison if a magic item is the optimum way to obtain the same bonus. Usually, magic items that grant bonuses are overpriced, and the same benefit can be had for much less by thinking outside of the box.
At level 17, we might look at the watchful fighter and the dread necromancer and conclude that the dread necromancer must pay 160,000 gp to duplicate the fighter's competence bonuses to Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. However, the DN probably wouldn't buy those items; instead, he'd find a cheaper way to achieve a similar capability.
For example, the DN could spend a fraction of that sum to improve his rebuke undead ability, then rebuke a nightshade, gaining the benefit of the creature's impressive Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot modifiers (and excellent sensory capabilities) plus its formidable combat skills and many special abilities. Or he could simply confront and kill the 17th-level watchful fighter, raise him as a vampire and rebuke it, and he's set. Either approach would produce a better return on investment than paying 160k for some skill bonuses.
I think we as a community tend to chronically overvalue bonuses, which merely let you play the game, and undervalue options, which let you redefine the game. What's your perspective?
Also, when looking at skills, let's dispense with the Diplomacy argument: that horse won't run. The Diplomacy skill is broken, and Rich Burlew's fix is praiseworthy and should be used instead.

The combat aura feature is overpowered.
I've seen people call this "weak" and I've seen it called "too good". Can anyone in the "weak" crowd tell me what the "too good" crowd is missing? My thought is that the aura reproduces a number of basic buff spells on the cleric list, but scales less well, and makes it nigh-impossible to stack buffs. Hardly anyone would be complaining about a martial class with some very weak clerical half-castery stuff, so I'm wondering what the concern is about.

Okuno
2011-05-25, 12:30 PM
Okay, I'll leave you alone now.
Yikes, I didn't think I came off that strong <.< Regardless, I consider ideas as highly fungible, so you're not going to offend, and I'm going to stay away from ad hominem myself. (Phone-posting 0.0 Well, I guess they write novels on their phones in Japan...) On the other hand, a paragraph might house a thought, but an argument has several thoughts within. What can I say, I read David Lewis and Richard Fumerton.

Now, and this goes out to everyone, it's boring if I'm not challenged, and I'm not bored. On to argument! and I'm not using the kid gloves either.


I'm not saying to fix saving throws, or change dominate person, or model 2e more, or anything like that.
No, I didn't think so, but that has consequences for what comes later.



Again, I don't see where you're seeing any emotional outpouring in my post;
Ah, but compare what you write below (the numbers we are examining, rather than the traditional ones, btw) to something as qualitative as "poor", and as loaded as "exceptionally". I don't claim you're trying to be emotional (could've made that clearer), but it happens regardless.


Save DCs can get up to around 32 at higher levels, while good saves hover around +20ish.

That means you usually need a roll of 13 to make the save, assuming a +2 in the stat. Drop the save mod by 6, and you need to roll a 19 to make the save.

Now this is what I like to see, and it really solidifies the problem in my mind.


And, FYI, I am looking at it from a game design perspective. I fully support the decision to give fighters better saves due to sound reasons founded on principles of good game design...
Sorry for insinuating; I guess it didn't really come across in the post. I also suppose I take a lot more time to come to a decision than normal, so it look like others are neglecting principles when actually it's just that there are so many, and the system is so complex that applying them is complicated. To be fair, I get the formatting.


Were someone to bring up a mathematical argument...

Oops, tempted the devil. You wanted a mathematical argument? I'll see your math and raise you logic. First: the logic, the structure of which will be universal generalization followed by a demonstration of contradiction, and it'll grant you most of your claims.

You've convinced me that the difference between rolling a 13 or a 19 is too big, you've even done it by using the bare, basic values rather than some opti-ridiculosity. That's all fine and dandy, even likable, but it doesn't just apply to the fighter, does it? Take the rogue, who can succeed brilliantly at dodging fireballs, but has a similar problem resisting poison as the vanilla fighter. Almost every time there's a bad save, I have another example. There are a few classes in the splats that have mid-y saves, those are the exceptions.

So, your argument for the fighter's mid-y will saves applies to almost all other classes. That's an overhaul of the saving throw system. You don't want such an overhaul, as you've stated, and I agree for the present purposes.

So, the question then is whether you're more willing to fix the whole system, or knowingly scrimp on logical consequences. Alternatively, there could be a better argument, but it hasn't been said yet. Now, my solution might be to overhaul the system, but that doesn't work on this thread, so I hope my math will give such an argument.

Indeed, before I do the math, let's check out an unwritten game design principle: know what you want.

As for what's required here, I believe the goal was to make the fighter able to act, not necessarily prevent him from being acted on. I think this because a vanilla fighter is T5, fairly useless, and jikiru wants borderline T3-4.

I always go back to JaronK's definitions, T4 can do one, count 'em one, thing quite well, but poor elsewhere. A T3 is moderately useful elsewhere. So, I think jikiru is aiming for "handed the ability to pound stuff for nothing, but needs a little forethought and building to do other things". Essentially, at this level of balance, you still have to work to be able to do well at more besides just one thing. Stop! Number time:

Take a level 20 jikiru fighter modified for bad will, take Iron Will and let him use his aura to boost his (and his allies! oh, very good ability if you're going up against Saruman) will saves. That's 6+2+5=+13 willsave at level 20 before ability scores, magic items, etc. Add that according to what you describe in your example, and we get at least another +6 for +19. Remember the fighter has some spare cash from not spending it on skill boosters, so the cloak of resistance is essentially free. If you want an elf or dwarf, pretty classy fighters IMHO, we get a bonus vs. enchantment, bringing the save vs. a dominate to at least +21. I've been assuming a pretty MADed-out fighter: just a +1 from wisdom at that level, maybe from a +2 or +4 wis item. That requires a roll of 13(11 for elf/dwarf) to defeat your example wizard. Toss on true grit for what it's worth up there (I do recommend making it more relevant at that level, since no archmage worth his salt is going to daze you when he can turn-coat you. No one wants to get an ability at, whatever it is, ninth level, just to see it get quickly obsolete), not bad at all.

It didn't take much of a build, either: a feat (pocket change for the fighter) and maybe you take a race, add the class features and items you'll get anyway (opportunity cost of all those at most a swift action). The options are all off the top of your head, too. Now, a mage can take iron will, too, but he won't get the aura, the free-ish items, true grit, but that, as much as it's interesting, is not the point. The point is we aren't trying to roll natural twenties. The point is, equally opted, a good will save fighter needs a 7, 13 for a bad save. Is either number is that ridiculous? Lesse: both are easily within a standard deviation from average.

My opinion, and now we really are at opinion, because argument has only best shown neutrality, is that some kits get poor will saves, some of the kits give good will saves (or vases, if you're dyslexic ^o^), let's say: barbarian, commander, disciplined fighter and watchful fighter get the good progression. The last three make sense from the fluff, but for the barbarian, I'll have to show my youthful indiscretions: you can tell when Wulfgar makes a will save, not so much when Drizzt does. Barbarians really could go either way, though, depending on how much of a colonialist or romanticist you are. Still, we end up with a 3-4 split one way or the other for fighters having good/bad (read: silver platter/a little thought) will saves.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-25, 12:52 PM
Ah, but compare what you write below (the numbers we are examining, rather than the traditional ones, btw) to something as qualitative as "poor", and as loaded as "exceptionally". I don't claim you're trying to be emotional (could've made that clearer), but it happens regardless.


Oops, tempted the devil. You wanted a mathematical argument? I'll see your math and raise you logic. First: the logic, the structure of which will be universal generalization followed by a demonstration of contradiction, and it'll grant you most of your claims.

[yay math!]

It seems I, too, need to get my points across better. I wasn't claiming that this specific fix needed better Will saves when I was examining fighter save numbers and talking about the "traditionally low" Will, I was talking generally about the reasons for giving fighters bad Will saves vs. giving them good Will saves, whether that takes the form of poor vs. good base progression, Grace/Battle Fortitude abilities, or whatever. In fact, the Will aura + True Grit of this fix is exactly the kind of thing I'm advocating when it comes to boosting fighter Will saves!

You don't have to improve the base saves (and on top of everything you mentioned, improving the base save might be a bit much), I'm just saying you have to do something--base saves, abilities, or otherwise--and that there are no grounds for objecting to doing so on the basis of "tradition" rather than math. As someone who's looking at this from a mathematical and design perspective rather than the "fighters 'should' be weak-willed" perspective, we're on the same side here.

Okuno
2011-05-25, 01:24 PM
I wasn't claiming that this specific fix needed better Will saves when I was examining fighter save numbers and talking about the "traditionally low" Will...

As someone who's looking at this from a mathematical and design perspective rather than the "fighters 'should' be weak-willed" perspective, we're on the same
side here.

Oh, well then, cool ^-^

jiriku
2011-05-25, 01:47 PM
You don't have to improve the base saves (and on top of everything you mentioned, improving the base save might be a bit much), I'm just saying you have to do something--base saves, abilities, or otherwise--and that there are no grounds for objecting to doing so on the basis of "tradition" rather than math. As someone who's looking at this from a mathematical and design perspective rather than the "fighters 'should' be weak-willed" perspective, we're on the same side here.


Oh, well then, cool ^-^

I would concur with this as well. At that point, the only question to be resolved is which medicine the patient needs and what dosage to prescribe. My preferred medicine for the fighter is crunchy mechanical benefits and ablative defenses, because these seem to fit the playstyle of fighter players.

To provide some perspective on the Will save issue, imagine that a remixed fighter and a beguiler are planning how to remain free to act on the battlefield, knowing that the enemy might use charms, dominates, holds, or the like. The players of the two characters are having a friendly competition to see who can can hold out longest against the DM's monsters.

BEGUILER, arguably the strongest Tier 3 class.
Avoids detection: Silent Spell and Still Spell as bonus feats, Hide and Move Silently as class skills, plus enough skill points to comfortably max out both of these skills. Can additionally use spells like glitterdust, the invisibility line, or illusions to remain undetected by foes.
Vigilance: Can detect and respond to hidden threats using see invisibility, arcane sight, locate creature, true seeing, discern location, and foresight.
Immunities: Spells like freedom of movement, nondetection, spell turning, and mind blank offer immunity to broad categories of mind-affecting spells
Mobility: To get out of harm's way. No proficiency with medium or heavy armor means faster movement than a heavily-armored fighter. Can augment movement with magic such as expeditious retreat, haste, ethereal jaunt, or shadow walk.
Panic buttons: Can use halt, hesitate, stay the hand, swift etherealness or moment of prescience to respond to an unanticipated attack.
Mechanics: As a last resort if unable to avoid an attack completely, has a Good Will save progression and is fairly SAD, so Wis is likely to be contributing at least a small bonus.
Buffs: Can purchase a ring of resistance.

REMIXED FIGHTER, a contender for Tier 3
Avoids detection: Cunning fighter is good at sneaking around. Other kits are generally highly conspicious.
Vigilance: Watchful fighter is quite perceptive. Watchful fighter has access to strong feats that bypass illusions and magical concealment. Other kits are not especially perceptive.
Immunities: No relevant immunities. Minimal feat support at higher levels for briefly delaying Will-save effects.
Mobility: Barbaric fighter is somewhat faster than average. Cavalry fighter is much faster, and can acquire a flying mount. Other kits somewhat slower. Mobile Combatant does enable the fighter to remain fully effective while moving, which casters could already do. Strong feat support for most kits to gain mobility-enhancing options.
Panic buttons: Countering strike offers a limited ability to disrupt unexpected enemy actions. Most kits have sufficient feat support to develop one or two other panic buttons.
Mechanics: As a last resort if unable to avoid an attack completely, has a Good Will save progression. Most versions fairly MAD, so Wis is likely to contributing little or no bonus.
Buffs: Combat aura offers scaling bonus to saves. Commanding fighter can add Cha to one save at a time. Commanding fighter has Can purchase a ring of resistance.

Against most kits, the beguiler has a convincing advantage in 5 of 7 categories of defense. The fighter consistently leads in self-buffing and may compete well or even lead in one other category depending on kit choice. To my eyeballs, the fighter is the one more likely to fail a Will save during an actual game. At the end of the game session, the conversation would probably go something like this:


Beguiler player: "Well, you failed that roll, so I win the competition."
Fighter player: "That's not fair! I had to make Will saves all night long, and you never even had to roll!"
Beguiler player: "...exactly."

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-25, 06:15 PM
Yikes, I didn't think I came off that strong <.<

You didn't; I just proved to myself how continuing the discussion with you would be semantic, because since we're mostly on the same boat regarding skills, and the only thing I could think of after reading the next paragraph was "well, I'd make this minor modification instead". Basically, the next thing I had to say was semantic.


(Phone-posting 0.0 Well, I guess they write novels on their phones in Japan...)

Yeah. Phone posting.


On the other hand, a paragraph might house a thought, but an argument has several thoughts within. What can I say, I read David Lewis and Richard Fumerton.

Lewis's work is interesting, though I must admit I've only read his earlier works. I've never heard of Richard Fumerton; could you point me in the direction where I could find something of his? Please don't list bookstores--my island doesn't have one.

An argument has several thoughts within, but all that means is that a larger argument can be broken down to its base components--its individual thoughts and premises--so that each can be analyzed and assessed individually. In spite of my Vaarsuvius-esque long-winded rants, I like to think that every idea can be summarized in a sentence within the expression of that idea, and in some particularly beautiful sentiments, a word.

Now, I'm not going to interrupt your discussion with Pair-o'-Dice Lost any further; I want to address jikiru's counter-arguments while he's around.


Going into this I'll say that I don't expect to please all of you - fixing the fighter requires too many changes for everyone to agree with all of them.

Nonsense! I demand everyone be pleased.


The Good Will save progression may be "too good for a fighter"They need it: Saves don't exist in a vacuum. They're part of your overall defensive strategy, which includes AC, miss chance, energy resistance, spell resistance, damage reduction, immunities, debuff and battlefield control. Fighters have fewer options in this arena than, say, a beguiler, crusader, warlock, or swordsage, so their base defenses should be stout.

I'm not going to address the others because, frankly, I don't regard them as design concerns, but roleplaying concerns.

Frankly, Fighters don't need good Will save progression to get a good Will save when you consider all your fixes. I'm aware that I'm skipping 19 levels by doing this, but we'll jump to level 20, where the difference between a "good" save and a "bad" save is greatest (+6). Counting only class features, a Fighter will only get +6 to Will saves with a bad save, but a Fighter that takes the Resilient Troops aura gets a +5 to all saves, and a Barbaric Fighter gets a +4 morale bonus to Will while in Rage (if they choose Rage as a class feature), plus Indomitable Will as a bonus feat (an extra +4 to enchantments), meaning that even with a bad save, no items, no WIS bonus and no extra feats, the Fighter can run into battle with +15 to his Will save (+19 vs. enchantments) as a virtue of class features alone. The Wizard, by contrast, will have a +17 raw bonus to their Will save--but only by virtue of the bonus they gain from the Fighter--so, individually, a Fighter can easily have equal or better saves than the Wizard. By contrast, a Fighter with good Will saves would have +21 to his Will save (+25 vs. enchantments) as a class feature, so your Fighter wouldn't just have a good Will save, he would have the best Will save.

Giving a Fighter better save options itself is benign--all it means is that Fighters are less incompetent at saves--but I am of the impression that, in your attempt to shore up clear weaknesses of the Fighter, you gave it too many class features that interact with each other in such a way that actually overcompensates for the weakness and makes it unnecessarily strong. (This is basically my complaint with skills as well.)


[B]Some kits are similar to but more powerful than a paladin, rogue, or bard.
Paladin and rogue are bad classes: paladins do nothing well, while rogues are frequently useless in combat and most of their class functions can be duplicated with 2nd- and 3rd-level spells. It speaks well of the fighter remix if it outshines these poor classes. Refer to my knight-paladin and daring outlaw classes for remixes of the paladin and rogue.

I am still of the mind that any homebrew has to pass the test of "would I allow this to be homebrewed into my campaign?"--and if the answer is "sure, but only if I also homebrew x, y, and z to keep this from completely outshining x, y, and z", then as a stand-alone, the homebrew revision has failed; it is dependent on a total class overhaul in order to fit in.

I suppose this is where you and I are simply going to see things differently--you're looking at the big picture ("what can I do to fix all these classes and balance everything out?"), whereas I'm looking at individual pieces and trying to see how they'd fit in without changing much of anything else. Since you're trying to fix everything, you've already accepted the premise (or assumed that those who would use your revisions have accepted the premise) that if one class has to be revised as a matter of resolving balance issues, then all classes have to be revised to resolve these same balance issues--a premise which I've already rejected. To that end, you would prefer to compare your Fighter to your Daring Outlaw, whereas I'd rather compare it to the traditional Rogue.

It seems we're at an impasse on this one.


A commanding fighter is similar to a bard, but doesn't replace the bard: bardic music can easily be optimized to equal or outshine Combat Aura and Commanding Aura. And so what if the two are roughly comparable with skills? Each has its own strengths: the bard can be more versatile by virtue of his powerful spellcasting, while the fighter is more capable in melee combat by virtue of his bonus feats and better combat statistics. You probably wouldn't want both a commanding fighter and a bard in the same party, but it's not a no-brainer to pick the former over the latter.

I'd say that it is; even at its current status, the Fighter fulfills a basic role that is essential to every party; he is the stereotypical Big Dumb Fighter, the first line of defense, the guy who cuts through big baddies like butter and makes sure nothing stains the Wizard's robes.

The Bard isn't.

The Bard is the fifth wheel, and is in almost every party a convenience item--he exists for large-party scenarios, where buffing a lot of people tends towards superior results over, say, buffing two. When the Fighter can already perform a very similar task much more easily (even if the Bard can technically do it better, it requires concentration on the Bardic song and has limited duration, whereas the Fighter can switch auras as a swift action and maintain them for free indefinitely, so the Fighter wins both in action economy and in sustainability), the Bard loses its one essential role--being the buffer. Since Wizards and Clerics, with their superior spellcasting ability, can duplicate just about every essential buff spell on the Bard's list, the only distinct feature the Bard has in this regard is their performance--and while their performance can still technically exceed the Fighter's auras in overall bonuses, it also incurs a much greater cost and has greater limitations, such that it's really not worth it.


The number of genre-crossing options depletes the niche value of each kit.
Similar isn't bad: likewise, when such-and-such kit is similar to another class, is that a problem? You choose the option that you like. An issue only arises when one class is overdetermined because it is much better than all other choices. For example, wizard is a bad class because it fills every role and is better at all of them than almost all of the other choices in each niche.

Not that I don't agree that similar isn't bad, I thought that the Fighter subsumed all similar classes (Barbarian, Marshal, Samurai, and perhaps Cavalier) in part to eliminate this?


The key skill feature is overpowered.
This argument has some weight, and I'm considering making adjustments. The mathematical argument was especially compelling, because I'm really a numbers guy.
But are we measuring with the right kind of ruler? It's easy to compare bonuses from one class to another, but looking strictly at magic item costs only produces a true comparison if a magic item is the optimum way to obtain the same bonus. Usually, magic items that grant bonuses are overpriced, and the same benefit can be had for much less by thinking outside of the box.
At level 17, we might look at the watchful fighter and the dread necromancer and conclude that the dread necromancer must pay 160,000 gp to duplicate the fighter's competence bonuses to Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. However, the DN probably wouldn't buy those items; instead, he'd find a cheaper way to achieve a similar capability.
For example, the DN could spend a fraction of that sum to improve his rebuke undead ability, then rebuke a nightshade, gaining the benefit of the creature's impressive Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot modifiers (and excellent sensory capabilities) plus its formidable combat skills and many special abilities. Or he could simply confront and kill the 17th-level watchful fighter, raise him as a vampire and rebuke it, and he's set. Either approach would produce a better return on investment than paying 160k for some skill bonuses.
I think we as a community tend to chronically overvalue bonuses, which merely let you play the game, and undervalue options, which let you redefine the game. What's your perspective?

First, a little quip--Okuno's table uses the cost for two key skills, so I believe it's actually twice that for the four skills listed.

I believe that the Dread Necromancer wouldn't necessarily even take the option of rebuking a Nightshade for the purposes of shoring up their perceptive weaknesses, because it's assumed in a party setting that the Dread Necromancer isn't going to have to do much searching for anything. You could say that a Wizard doesn't put ranks in Spot because the Divination school gives them access to Arcane Eye, which fulfills any Spot needs that they may have, but I'd say it's much more likely that the Wizard doesn't put ranks in Spot because the Rogue/Ranger/Scout does, and that's why they keep them around.

Well, until the Fighter comes along and does it much better, of course.

The competence bonuses to the central skills isn't necessarily where it ends, though. The feats that offer key skills essentially give you two "take 40" skills for the cost of one feat, which, compared to the options that other classes have for the same cost (feats like Alertness, which give +2 to two skills/+4 with sufficient rank investment, and Skill Focus, which gives +3 to one skill/+6 with sufficient rank investment) is frankly absurd. Not to mention the fact that the ability to "take 20" without increasing the time it takes to use the skill, itself, is broken--even with a Nightshade, or an Arcane Eye, a Dread Necromancer or a Wizard could never hope to emulate the level 17 Watchful Fighter's perceptive abilities (untrained) save for some very lucky rolls of the die, and unlike the Fighter, they have to expend some of their valuable daily resources to even come close to a Watchful Fighter's untrained Spot Check at level 17. Oh, and don't forget the aura! (I just did.)

I believe where Okuno and I reached an agreement is in that, even with all this in mind, having this apply to one, or even two skills doesn't create a drastic imbalance; it allows the Fighter to be incredibly good at something skill-based, even to the point of being unparalleled at those skills, without a tremendous opportunity cost. As written, however, I can, for the cost of three feats and a martial style selection, gain twelve skills with which I automatically gain a +20 competence bonus by level 17 (scaling up to that until then), plus an additional +5 from the Follow my Lead aura (which is shared with the party), plus the ability to "take 20" on any of these skills without cost, which is something no other class can emulate--even with an entire equipment list consisting only of competence bonus items and heavy skill investment--and I can do all of this without investing a single skill point in any of these "key skills". Oh, and I also get more skill points than I used to--4 + INT per level--which I can choose to spend on these skills (to make even epic-level abilities free) or whatever else.

As written, the key skills just balloon into absurd extremes; the Fighter can now do everything out-of-combat better than any other class could hope to do without devoting an entire build to it (which the Fighter didn't necessarily have to do), and can even do some things with it in combat (without any extra cost, really) that even tier 1 classes like Wizards and Clerics can't do without considerably greater build investment. For example, a blaster has to invest all of their feats, as well as their highest-level slots, to beat the damage-per-action output of the Greater Insightful Strike Fighter example I posted, at equal level--while the Figher simply has to choose a martial style with Concentration as a key ability and invest some skill points into Concentration as a skill (one per level, so even skill-wise, the Fighter still has more skills per level than they did before; essentially, nothing is lost).


Also, when looking at skills, let's dispense with the Diplomacy argument: that horse won't run. The Diplomacy skill is broken, and Rich Burlew's fix is praiseworthy and should be used instead.

I agree that Diplomacy is imbalanced (and I won't continue to use it), but I'd like to point out that this falls under the "homebrew that relies on other homebrew" problem I pointed out earlier. In this case, Commanding Fighter (or the appropriate feat) makes Diplomacy more broken by making its epic-level achievements effortless, so even having Diplomacy as a key skill on any class is ridiculous unless a revision to Diplomacy is homebrewed in.


The combat aura feature is overpowered.
I've seen people call this "weak" and I've seen it called "too good". Can anyone in the "weak" crowd tell me what the "too good" crowd is missing? My thought is that the aura reproduces a number of basic buff spells on the cleric list, but scales less well, and makes it nigh-impossible to stack buffs. Hardly anyone would be complaining about a martial class with some very weak clerical half-castery stuff, so I'm wondering what the concern is about

I think the "weak" people are missing it; the thing that makes the combat auras "too good" is that they're essentially free. Unlike the Bardic Performances, or the Wizard/Cleric/Bard buffs, or other such bonuses, which are temporary and expend daily resources to maintain, the Fighter has a selection of full-party buffs that are always available to him and to his entire party, require no sacrifice in action economy, have no time limits, and have no drawbacks. A Fighter's auras can always be considered to be "on" unless afflicted with a certain condition, but True Grit mitigates even that.

A Fighter can gain, say, Motivate Ardor, Motivate Care, Motivate Attack, Resilient Troops, and Follow My Lead for all-purpose benefits (I wouldn't get Motivate Urgency, because people moving further per round means they're either moving away from you in combat--in which case they will lose the benefit of the aura--or they're moving toward you in combat--in which case they're close to you already, and don't need to move far to get where they need to be--but it can be considered a contender) without stepping on anybody's toes buff-wise, and even though these buffs may not be as strong as the higher-end capabilities of the Cleric, the Wizard or the Bard, they can be maintained indefinitely for free--something that no other class really has at their disposal save the Paladin, who can "share" its CHA bonus to saves with a feat (and that spreads the bonus thin the more people you have). +5 to your attack rolls, or damage, or AC, or DR, or saves, or energy resistance, or skills, or movement speed individually might not seem like too much to people--but when you have a toolbox of these abilities you can draw from, and you can have any of them whenever you want, it adds up.

On another note, I couldn't help but notice your Beguiler/Fighter comparison:


Avoids detection: Cunning fighter is good at sneaking around. Other kits are generally highly conspicious.

Stealthy Commando eliminates this problem (treats Hide and Move Silently as class skills and "key skills", meaning they get a free +20 competence bonus, +5 from auras, and the "take 20" ability). For the cost of one feat (one of eighteen for most Fighters, nineteen for Humans), your Fighter can sneak around better than any Beguiler could (at least, through mundane means).


Mobility: Barbaric fighter is somewhat faster than average. Cavalry fighter is much faster, and can acquire a flying mount. Other kits somewhat slower. Mobile Combatant does enable the fighter to remain fully effective while moving, which casters could already do. Strong feat support for most kits to gain mobility-enhancing options.

Motivate Urgency.


Mechanics: As a last resort if unable to avoid an attack completely, has a Good Will save progression. Most versions fairly MAD, so Wis is likely to contributing little or no bonus.

Rage, Resilient Troops (admittedly, noted below this).

Okuno
2011-05-25, 09:24 PM
the fellow who usually gets dominated by the evil wizard is the guardsman or man-at-arms -- an NPC warrior.
Speaking of wrong rulers... -.^


...I am of the impression that, in your attempt to shore up clear weaknesses of the Fighter, you gave it too many class features that interact with each other in such a way that actually overcompensates for the weakness
I also get this impression with the fix. Mainly, it seems that some class features that were intended as secondary are actually primary in terms of balance.

Now, I will tackle the non-math issues, because redundant arguments are superior:


Saves don't exist in a vacuum.
Neither does the fighter: he's got casters to provide buffs as part of the combined arms design (I know I keep hitting it, but it's really the biggest flaw in the extant system).



It speaks well of the fighter remix if it outshines these poor classes.
Agree. No one's using the paladin class anyway, it's another bad ruler. It's a little different with the bard, since in large-party it does see the light of day.


What if you want to play a dishonorable samurai infamous for cheating during iaijutsu duels...
Cross-class into iaijutsu focus, then cheat like a normal sneak.


or a special-forces soldier skilled at wilderness survival...
Why aren't you playing a ranger?


or a dirty-tricks pit gladiator who iai-draws against his opponents?
You know that you yourself built in the ability to have multiple combat styles? A little look-see later, and I'd say scrap the key ability feats, then allow your 2nd&3rd combat styles let you pick up class skills, but you can only spend so many ranks (as if you were a character 8 or 16 CL less than you are, depending on how late you take it).


Similar isn't bad:...An issue only arises when one class is overdetermined because it is much better than all other choices.
Yeah, it's been demonstrated at least to me, and obviously some others, that the fighter at-post indeed eclipses other classes. After the math Tylenol did, I think it eclipses your daring outlaw (though not as much as the vanilla rogue). One of the main causes of this is the ability to get two key skills to a feat; and to add insult to injury, feats are the most abundant resource the fighter has. The aura is another biggie, but at least that's only one class at a time finding its main feature obsolete.



But are we measuring with the right kind of ruler? It's easy to compare bonuses from one class to another, but looking strictly at magic item costs only produces a true comparison if a magic item is the optimum way to obtain the same bonus.
I mainly argue for the use of this ruler because of its effectiveness in evaluating opportunity cost, not as a direct measure. I'll agree, it's difficult and I'll admit I set the bar at a fairly random 25% gold recouped. I might be persuaded to go as high as 50% saved, but only with playtesting. Never 200%. Not for a secondary class feature, anyway.


the dread necromancer must pay 160,000 gp to duplicate the fighter's competence bonuses to Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. However, the DN probably wouldn't buy those items; instead, he'd find a cheaper way to achieve a similar capability.
But wouldn't it be great if he could do away with his +20 handbook of spellcraft? And Knowledge (arcana)? And concentration? Oh, I get a fourth: UMD, too kthx. I know I try not to op much in an evaluation, but the bare-bones min/max while respecting class goals doesn't hurt <.<


I think we as a community tend to chronically overvalue bonuses, which merely let you play the game, and undervalue options, which let you redefine the game. What's your perspective?
I agree, options are more powerful, they're what lets hackers break the game. That being said, watch bloody well out for them! Characters redefining the game too much can wreck balance, easy. What uber-builds don't rely on features that modify the everyday rules? You can break the truenamer with enough splatbooks (and some overly healthy DM fiat, IMHO)!


Also, when looking at skills, let's dispense with the Diplomacy argument: that horse won't run. The Diplomacy skill is broken, and Rich Burlew's fix is praiseworthy and should be used instead.
Honestly, I've never taken diplomacy seriously. The best games I've played or DMed dispensed with the rules and just role-played it. Kinda off-topic, though...


I'm wondering what the concern [over the aura] is about.
Bump everything Tylenol has to say about that. (Except Motivate urgency can help out the scout's skirmish, IIRC. I haven't run a scout anywhere, though... Whoops, and it can really help a heavily-armored fighter with spring attack to get in and out with a full attack in there. Multiclass for some skirmish and you might have the start of a serious build there.)



It's on another computer, so I'll edit in my first take at auras. They do a good job of not interferring with the bard, but I'd still up the bard's usage anyway.

Combat Aura (Ex): At 3rd level, you learn to project an aura that grants you and nearby allies a special benefit. As you gain levels, you learn to project new types of auras that offer different benefits as shown on Table: The Fighter, but you may project only one combat aura at a time.
Projecting and sustaining a combat aura is a swift action. You may project auras for up to a number of rounds per day equal to your fighter class level. This time may be split up as desired, both with regards to how long to use the aura and with regards to which aura you use. Using an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. You size up enemies, allies, and the terrain, then give allies the direction that they can use to do their best.
Unless otherwise noted, your combat aura affects all allies (including yourself) within five feet per fighter level who can hear you. Affected allies must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand your language. Your aura is dismissed if you are dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard and understood by your allies.
The bonus granted by an aura starts at +1 and improves by another +1 at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Combat aura does not stack with the benefits of the Commanding Aura feat or the Aid Another action.
Follow My Lead: You give your allies a competence bonus on skill checks with your key skills (see the Fighting Style class feature for details) equal to twice your combat aura bonus.
Hardy Soldiers: Your allies gain damage reduction (or an improvement to their existing damage reduction) equal to the amount of bonus the aura provides minus one. For example, if you are 10th level, everyone affected gains DR 2/-. You cannot learn this aura before 6th level.
Motivate Ardor: Morale bonus on damage rolls. You cannot learn this aura before 10th level.
Motivate Attack: Morale bonus on melee attack rolls. You cannot learn this aura before 6th level.
Motivate Care: Morale bonus to Armor Class. You cannot learn this aura before 10th level.
Motivate Urgency: Your allies gain a morale bonus to their base land speed equal to 5 x your combat aura bonus. For example, if you are 10th level, everyone affected adds 15 feet to their base land speed.
Resilient Troops: Morale bonus to one save. You may choose a different saving throw each time you project the aura.
Steady Hand: Morale bonus on ranged attack rolls. You cannot learn this aura before 6th level.
[i]Weather the Storm: Your allies gain energy resistance against all of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. This energy resistance does not stack with energy resistance gained from other sources. The amount gained is equal to the amount of bonus the aura provides. For example, if you are 10th level, you could grant all of your allies resistance 3 vs. all energy types.


MORE EDIT: While I'm at it, I already said we might need to compensate elsewhere for nerfing auras and skill, so let's see what we can do about continuing to scale the awesome main guns, maybe:

Come Here (I Dare You):[\b] At 5th level and every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, 17th), the fighter gains an extra attack of opportunity each round. This stacks with combat reflexes.
[b]Astounding Strength (Ex): At 13th level, you can apply your strength even more effectively. Your Strength bonus counts double when dealing damage with a melee or ranged attack, or when making a Strength check, a grapple check, or a Strength-based skill check. Thus, you deal your full Strength bonus to damage with off-hand weapons, twice your Strength bonus to damage with weapons held in your primary hand, and thrice your Strength bonus to damage with weapons wielded with two hands.
This bonus applies equally to melee, thrown, and ranged weapons, unarmed strikes, and natural attacks (if you have any), but cannot be used in conjunction with abilities that allow you to apply a different ability bonus to damage instead of Strength. This feature replaces Exceptional Strength and therefore does not stack with it.



he is the stereotypical Big Dumb Fighter
Yeah see, but that's what this class is trying to fix: not every fighter need be retarded: Faramir, Drizzt&Catterbrie (again, bleh...), Thor (the archetype, I mean, I'm not comparing a PC class to a god <.<), Patton (yeah, I'm counting RL, whaddya gonna do about it?), &c. The fact is, this fighter feels like it can provide some inspiration to the wizard, cleric and rogue, who would normally be locked in a tower, helping the weak or stealing in-town, respectively. Maybe that's are just as invalid a set of sterotypes as what you suggest, but at least the option to play it is there.


Lewis's work is interesting, though I must admit I've only read his earlier works. I've never heard of Richard Fumerton...
Oh snap, fellow arm-chair philosopher! No prob, but it'll be PM, since it's so OT.

---

I love this, we're way deep in the system (that's what he said?).

That being said, I've argued both for and against modularity in previous posts. I think I've come to a conclusion: what are you homebrewing, jikiru? If you're making an entire system, that's fine, but it's a lot of work to build and learn, so it will help fewer people. Building a fighter that can be plopped right on into a largely unmodified framework may well create more fun-for-the-buck even if it's still a little off. Even better, in your own game, tweak it to fit. Other DMs who recognize it as still in need of something can tweak it, too. I vote modular.

Shameless plug for a yet non-existent fix: the party roles are totally confused as it is. It's no surprise the cleric and wizard are T1, they fill two party roles without any op (caster+support-y-tank-y and artillery/air support+spy, respectively). Any examination of the deep roots of D&D will show this deficiency and the same if you made it through Sun Tzu.

Having said that, the fighter we build here should fulfill it's role, but not step out of it to the extent that more problems are created. In combat, he should hold the line, deal damage. The aura can help hold, but it shouldn't be too hearty a support feature. Out of combat, let the fighter use skills, but let him use skills related to strength, like busting in doors when the rogue fails to pick the lock. Leave social niceties to the spy even if the commanding fighter can inspire his troops; the cunning fighter should be able to fight dirty, but the rogue should infiltrate.

Okay, there's been a lot of critique, so, lemme just say that I adore the ideas presented here. They give the fighter a unique flair, and I like that far beyond the blah of the 2-level "get some feats" class. I'm not worried about a T2 fighter, but I am worried that the ideal party after T2+ is banned would be three fighters and a beguiler. Try to balance this class such that the forces urge the players to choose fighter, rogue, healer and beguiler.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-26, 01:19 AM
Yeah see, but that's what this class is trying to fix: not every fighter need be retarded: Faramir, Drizzt&Catterbrie (again, bleh...), Thor (the archetype, I mean, I'm not comparing a PC class to a god <.<), Patton (yeah, I'm counting RL, whaddya gonna do about it?), &c. The fact is, this fighter feels like it can provide some inspiration to the wizard, cleric and rogue, who would normally be locked in a tower, helping the weak or stealing in-town, respectively. Maybe that's are just as invalid a set of sterotypes as what you suggest, but at least the option to play it is there.

Oh, I know the Fighter's not dumb. The only Fighter I've really ever built was an aging ascetic who had WIS and INT as his two highest stats, respectively, and relies on each to give himself a superior tactical advantage in battle against younger, more foolish opponents. But that's not my point. My point is that a distinct role for the Fighter does exist--the Fighter fulfills a role that is central to the party dynamic, so even if the Fighter isn't tier 1, 2, or 3, there really isn't a great risk of being rendered completely obsolete. As long as the party needs a Big, Dumb Fighter, the Fighter will live on--even if they're not big or dumb.

The Bard, on the other hand, fulfills no such essential role; it is purely a convenience item, something that is only necessarily pursued when the party is large enough to start tacking on non-essentials. Even then, the only reason Bards are a popular choice is because they have a unique role that they are distinctly good at: they are the party's buffer. The way auras are currently designed, however, the Fighter steps on the Bard's toes in a big way, as the Fighter not only performs his own essential role in the party dynamic, but performs the already extraneous role of the Bard decently as well. What, then, is the point of the Bard?

Now, to address your PM... :smallsmile:

jiriku
2011-05-26, 02:06 AM
Argh. I have been beaten at the wall-o-text game. Must construct bigger wall! :smallbiggrin:

Ok, theorycrafting and vigorous debate. This is a whole evening of fun, but where to start?

Fighters with good Will saves
My preference is that passing saving throws should be something that fighters are good at, all the time, regardless of build. Commanding fighters should be able to buff party saves. So given this, it seems to me that we're down to dickering about Combat Aura and the effectiveness of thereof. I'd like to remind you that the commanding aura + combat aura + Good Will progression that's got you concerned is ripped almost exactly from the Miniatures Handbook Marshal, which has Major Aura, Minor Aura, and... a Good Will progression! And yes, I know the marshal is a different case because that's the only thing it has going for it. :smallbiggrin:

The remixed fighter obsoletes the rogue and paladin.
You're right, we are at an impasse. Swordsage also obsoletes the rogue, while crusader obsoletes the paladin. The remixed fighter is intended to achieve parity with the swordsage and crusader. It is impossible to match these classes and also match the classes that they overshadow.

The commanding fighter obsoletes the bard.
If true, this is a problem. I'll think more on this, because it is a serious concern. I'm not yet persuaded by the arguments, which seem to dismiss the possibility that bardic spellcasting is actually good (which it is). Honest question: you guys ever seen someone twink out a bard? I have. It was... gloriously terrifying.

The kit-feats grant too much for too little investment.
The key skill class feature is overpowered.
Ok, you've got me here. Even compared to the best feats in the game, the kit-feats are overpowered because of the way they interact with the fighting style bonuses. I have several thoughts on how to nerf.
Limit total kitfeats to 1, which must be taken when acquiring the 1st level of fighter.
Limit the total kitfeats to 1, a limit that may relax with the acquisition of Second Style and Third Style.
Grant the fighter his fighting style bonus with only one or two key skills of his choice, rather than all.
Reduce/delay the scaling of the fighting style bonus.
Convert Combat Aura to a competence bonus so it does not stack with the key skill bonus.

Worth noting: I didn't mention this earlier because I wasn't directly his post, but Okuno's table contains an error. At levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, he lists the gp value and % of WBL for the skill bonuses at double what he should (using bonus squared x 200, instead of bonus squared x 100, which is the correct formula). I don't consider this a huge deal though, as his original point (that the numbers are quite large), still stands. It just stands half as tall. :smallcool:

If you've ever thumbed through the thread on my monk remix, then you know that I stake out a controversial position on skill bonuses. They are wildly, wildly, astronomically, stupendously overpriced. No really, they're so far off that it's just dumb. Eskimos would rather buy ice than buy magic items that grant large competence bonuses on skill checks. You'd rather invest in subprime mortgages than buy these things. Even Bernie Madoff wouldn't touch them. Just looking at an example, a set of +30 competence bonus to Climb, Jump, and Balance sets me back 360,000 gp, which is more than the entire WBL of a 17th level character. However, a continuous item of fly, which is better in every conceivable way that even remotely matters, could cost as little as 30,000 gp, which is nearly affordable at 8th level. Meanwhile, a warlock can pick up continuous flight as a class feature as early as 6th level. Skill bonuses from items are just not costed correctly.

In fact, most "epic" uses of skills approximate the effects of 2nd or 3rd-level spells. Thus, gaining a class feature that moves your skill checks into the epic range by level 13 is...well, milktoast. I mean, really, imagine the conversations.


Fighter: "Hey beguiler, check out my stealth checks!"
Beguiler: Casts invisibility sphere and zone of silence, concealing the entire party.
Fighter: "Oh. Well, never mind, then."

Fighter: "Hey bard, lookit my sweet Sense Motive and Spot mods!"
Bard: Casts improvisation and glibnesss, then convinces the fighter that he is not wearing any pants.
Fighter: "Oh snap."

Silliness aside, however, you're correct again that the fighter is intended to be extremely good at making skill checks with a small selection of thematic skills. Perhaps even unparalleled in the arena of his specialty. It seems to me that what you're really saying though is that fighters shouldn't be better at skill use, even within their specialization, than members of other classes. Instead, members of other classes should be better at using the fighter's skills than the fighter is. Am I correct here?

I had much to say on Combat Aura, but it's late and I'm tired, so that will wait until tomorrow.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-26, 03:40 AM
I'll let you win this round of wall-of-texting and keep my repsonses as short as possible. :smallwink:


Fighters with good Will saves
My preference is that passing saving throws should be something that fighters are good at, all the time, regardless of build. Commanding fighters should be able to buff party saves. So given this, it seems to me that we're down to dickering about Combat Aura and the effectiveness of thereof. I'd like to remind you that the commanding aura + combat aura + Good Will progression that's got you concerned is ripped almost exactly from the Miniatures Handbook Marshal, which has Major Aura, Minor Aura, and... a Good Will progression! And yes, I know the marshal is a different case because that's the only thing it has going for it. :smallbiggrin:

First, "small big grin" is an oxymoron, and I love it.

The extra-large Will saves that are class features of the Marshal and the Paladin are such because they are primary class features; heck, they're pretty much all they've got going for them. Considering this Fighter has a thousand and one other cool things going for it, giving it full Will save progression along with Will-enhancing bonuses just seems like that fifth slice of cake at a wedding: too much.


The remixed fighter obsoletes the rogue and paladin.
You're right, we are at an impasse. Swordsage also obsoletes the rogue, while crusader obsoletes the paladin. The remixed fighter is intended to achieve parity with the swordsage and crusader. It is impossible to match these classes and also match the classes that they overshadow.

Crusader overshadowing the Paladin is a problem, and I wish they hadn't given the Crusader most of the Paladin's class features. I still don't think the answer is to give people a class with even more preferential alternatives to the Paladin (replace Smite Evil with appropriate aura; when needed, replace Divine Grace with appropriate aura; and so on). I'd say that might be a case where I'd rather take a Paladin homebrew over a Fighter homebrew, or perhaps even both, but that's neither here nor there.

I can see how most attempts at buffing the Fighter will push the Paladin further into obscurity, so I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

Rogue still has some applications that are unique to itself (out-of-combat skills and tricks, Sneak Attack still has some decent uses), so Swordsage doesn't necessarily replace it in its entirety.


The commanding fighter obsoletes the bard.
If true, this is a problem. I'll think more on this, because it is a serious concern. I'm not yet persuaded by the arguments, which seem to dismiss the possibility that bardic spellcasting is actually good (which it is). Honest question: you guys ever seen someone twink out a bard? I have. It was... gloriously terrifying.

Bards can be something impressive, but Bardic spellcasting isn't necessarily replaced by anything the Fighter does, so much as it is replaced by the superior spellcasting of the Wizard, Cleric, Druid and Sorcerer, so Bardic spellcasting is often just a matter of freeing up spell slots for the aforementioned by using buffs so that they don't have to.

Bardic performance is the only unique feature of the Bard that sees a lot of play (since most of the Bard's spells are shared with the Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard spell lists), so it's the one that one needs to watch out for most in regards to securing the Bard's place in relevance; otherwise, there's no reason not to leave the buffing to a well-built Fighter and just roll a Beguiler or a backup Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer instead.


The kit-feats grant too much for too little investment.
The key skill class feature is overpowered.
Ok, you've got me here. Even compared to the best feats in the game, the kit-feats are overpowered because of the way they interact with the fighting style bonuses. I have several thoughts on how to nerf.
Limit total kitfeats to 1, which must be taken when acquiring the 1st level of fighter.
Limit the total kitfeats to 1, a limit that may relax with the acquisition of Second Style and Third Style.
Grant the fighter his fighting style bonus with only one or two key skills of his choice, rather than all.
Reduce/delay the scaling of the fighting style bonus.
Convert Combat Aura to a competence bonus so it does not stack with the key skill bonus.

If I might provide a suggestion for revisions:
The fighter gains all of the "key skills" of the respective fighting styles as class skills, but must select one (or perhaps two) for which the competence bonuses are earned (as in list item 3).
The fighter gains both of the skills from the skill feats as class skills, but if they choose either (or both) of these skills to gain competence bonuses, they must replace the competence bonuses for existing skills. Example: a Cunning Fighter takes the Stealthy Commando feat, gaining Hide and Move Silently as key skills; he then gives up his competence bonus to an existing skill (Gather Information) in order to gain the competence bonus in a new skill granted by the feat (Hide). (This may have to be limited to level 1 or something, for mechanic's sake.)
Skill Mastery can extend to all key skills (as it does normally), but the ability to "take 20" on a skill should only extend to the skill(s) that they choose to gain the competence bonus from.
Where applicable, Diplomacy should be replaced by Gather Information, because barring the intentional homeruling of Diplomacy, the skill will always be broken with a "take 40" rule.
This isn't really relevant to our existing conversations, but... Take a page from the Pathfinder Fighter; as the Pathfinder Fighter levels up, they gain a higher maximum dexterity bonus to their armor, as well as a lower armor check penalty. This applies more to physical skills, but it also makes the Fighter less useless at things like Jump, Climb or Swim while wearing half-plate.

The aura doesn't need to become a competence bonus if you apply these fixes; all it means is that the Fighter will gain a +5 bonus to a wider number of skills with this fix, but they won't gain +20 bonuses to all of them on top of it. (Small competence bonuses applying everywhere > large competence bonuses applying everywhere, or even large competence bonuses period.)


If you've ever thumbed through the thread on my monk remix, then you know that I stake out a controversial position on skill bonuses. They are wildly, wildly, astronomically, stupendously overpriced. No really, they're so far off that it's just dumb. Eskimos would rather buy ice than buy magic items that grant large competence bonuses on skill checks. You'd rather invest in subprime mortgages than buy these things. Even Bernie Madoff wouldn't touch them. Just looking at an example, a set of +30 competence bonus to Climb, Jump, and Balance sets me back 360,000 gp, which is more than the entire WBL of a 17th level character. However, a continuous item of fly, which is better in every conceivable way that even remotely matters, could cost as little as 30,000 gp, which is nearly affordable at 8th level. Meanwhile, a warlock can pick up continuous flight as a class feature as early as 6th level. Skill bonuses from items are just not costed correctly.

I get that impression as well. Even when most of your class's features are built around a single skill (like my Wizard/Incantatrix is built around Spellcraft, and my party's Fighter/Dragoon is built around Jump), skill bonuses on their own are pretty ridiculous. In most cases, I'm willing to simply settle for Masterwork tools and call it a day.


In fact, most "epic" uses of skills approximate the effects of 2nd or 3rd-level spells. Thus, gaining a class feature that moves your skill checks into the epic range by level 13 is...well, milktoast. I mean, really, imagine the conversations.

Silliness aside, however, you're correct again that the fighter is intended to be extremely good at making skill checks with a small selection of thematic skills. Perhaps even unparalleled in the arena of his specialty. It seems to me that what you're really saying though is that fighters shouldn't be better at skill use, even within their specialization, than members of other classes. Instead, members of other classes should be better at using the fighter's skills than the fighter is. Am I correct here?

What I'm trying to get at is more along the lines of "fighters shouldn't be better at skill use, even within their specialization, than members of other classes without making some investment for that skill, as other classes have to do for theirs." To that end, I think Skill Mastery isn't broken, nor is giving the Fighter more skill points outright, or giving them more available class skills (either as a straight class feature or a fighting style unlock), but giving them a way to make epic-level checks without ever investing a rank into it is another story. I mean, I, as a Wizard, am not expected to make a considerably higher Spellcraft roll than the party's Cleric without investing ranks into Spellcraft, even though Spellcraft is central to my class and not to his; similarly, he, as a Cleric, is not expected to make a considerably higher Knowledge (religion) check than I am without first investing ranks into it.

I guess what I'm getting at is, even though many classes have certain specializations (some of them even having skill specializations), no single class has "expert at this skill for free" as a class feature; in order for a Rogue to be better at opening locks and hiding than, say, the Cleric from above, they have to invest a considerable number of skills into Open Lock and Hide. In order for me to beat the Rogue at Spellcraft, I have to invest ranks into Spellcraft. Some class features will implicitly aid these classes in their respective "strong skills" (Rogues are one of very few classes who don't treat these certain skills as cross-class, so a Rogue is needed in order to even have full access to these skills; a specialist Wizard gets a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks within his own school), but the big payoff comes as a result of investing appropriately in that skill.

I guess you could say that's by big complaint both with the current "key skill" feature, as well as the auras; they're free. The concept of "high-risk, high-reward" isn't really an issue when there's no risk incurred; unlike the Barbarian's Rage (or your Rage feature), or the Bard's performance, or the Paladin's Smite Evil, or the Cleric's turning, or even the Wizard's spells, there is no such thing as a wrong time to use these abilities; if you have the Resilient Troops aura up for an hour non-stop while dungeon crawling, you've lost nothing, but if a Barbarian (or a Barbaric Fighter) has Rage up for a minute, they've lost enough of their key class feature's use per day to be measured in percentages, even at the highest levels. If a Wizard uses an eighth-level spell, they may bend reality with it, but the point is they can only do it a few times per day (five, max, if they're specialist) so they'd better make it count when they cast that eighth-level spell (and, accordingly, they'd better have made strong eighth-level spell choices for the day)!

The difference between your auras, Martial Aptitude, and even skill bonuses and, well, every other class feature worth mentioning is that yours have no cost to use them, and have no limits to their regular usage, whereas others do. If you are a revised Fighter and you are terrible at resource management, you are rewarded for using three or more class features every turn, but if you're a Wizard and you are terrible at resource management, you turn to the crossbow by the third room of the dungeon (this is especially true at the early- to mid-level, where Wizards don't have nearly as many resources to manage); if you are a Fighter and you're terrible at appropriate uses of resources, that's okay, you can switch out as a swift action, but if you're a Wizard and you are terrible at selecting appropriate resources, you prepare Fireball cooked a dozen different ways against the Elder Fire Elemental boss of the fire-themed volcano-dungeon, unless your party lets you rest for eight hours so you can change spells. (Sorcerers have the opposite problem; they can switch between spells spontaneously, but if they select inappropriate spells upon level-up, they have a maximum of ten chances ever to reverse the decision.)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, "no-risk, good-reward" is a better trade than "high-risk, high-reward", even if the payoff is a little less, because you're getting everything for free and without repercussions for inappropriate choices or resource management. It's one thing when a single, central feature of the class is given out for free (Paladin gets Divine Grace for CHA bonus to all saves, but other features, like turning and Smite Evil, have daily restrictions), but when all of them are free and require no investment, it just stops being fun to think about it.

Okuno
2011-05-26, 08:49 PM
Must construct bigger wall! :smallbiggrin:
What? Impossible!



My preference is that passing saving throws should be something that fighters are good at, all the time, regardless of build.
Woah, there. A stance like that could easily be read as "blaster wizards shouldn't be able to soften up the enemy", which is something no one wants. Combat shouldn't devolve into the fighters duke it out while the blasters waste 3/4 of their spells.


And yes, I know the marshal is a different case because that's the only thing it has going for it. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, very different case, since there's been a lot of effort here to give the fighter something going for it other than massive mental fortitude. I'm not even touching that part of the argument, it's going nowhere...


The remixed fighter obsoletes the rogue and paladin.
Yeah, I think I said I don't give about the paladin, whatever, but the rogue should be the skillmonkey. More on skill monkey later, though.



Limit total kitfeats to 1, which must be taken when acquiring the 1st level of fighter.
Limit the total kitfeats to 1, a limit that may relax with the acquisition of Second Style and Third Style.
Grant the fighter his fighting style bonus with only one or two key skills of his choice, rather than all.
Reduce/delay the scaling of the fighting style bonus.
Convert Combat Aura to a competence bonus so it does not stack with the key skill bonus.
Of the list, 1 seems okay, add 4 and we're getting somewhere, though I don't think it needs terribly much dealy/reduce, as my suggested numbers demonstrated.

Now, as for five, it doesn't really solve the problem. However, if you do make it competence, I see no reason not to double the bonus granted. This would be fluffed as the fighter teaching and instructing his allies on-the-fly for a specific situation.

Over all, however, I agree with Tylenol and his assessment of the aura as a free lunch. The truth is, the aura should be used to get his party out of dire straights: it's far more cinematic and engaging that way. Time limits on the aura is the way to go to encourage players to do exactly this. I think I said 1 round per day per level, broken up as the fighter sees fit. You could add cha bonus to that, too (bonus, not modifier, I think)



Worth noting: I didn't mention this earlier because I wasn't directly his post, but Okuno's table contains an error. At levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, he lists the gp value and % of WBL for the skill bonuses at double what he should
Ooh, I was going to hate myself I had bungled that math <.< Luckily, I checked and I haven't. There are two places you could be missing the factor of two:
1) The table lists two items' total, so that would provide an extra 2. Since you've actually got four key skills, the problem so far is twice as tall as I make it out to be. 0.o It's just I was arguing w/ Tylenol over two skills at that point.
2) Since the bonuses don't eat item slots, they're worth twice as much, DMG table 7-33 again.
So, final formula is bonus squared *100 * 2 (no item slots) * 2 (two skills given bonuses) = bonus squared * 400. You'll find the numbers as listed correspond. Before it comes up, I did wonder about 2*2=3, but that doesn't apply since one of those multipliers is honest-to-goodness having a second thing rather than breaking the rules a second time.


If you've ever thumbed through the thread on my monk remix, then you know that I stake out a controversial position on skill bonuses.
Yeah, but you built that monk as a skillmonkey, and really, monks should do wuxia pre-epic, it's their flavor, for god's sake. So the monk's fine, but the fighter... he's a different story.


Eskimos would rather buy ice than buy magic items that grant large competence bonuses on skill checks.
Now I love hyperbole more than the next man, but it's not just gold we're talking about. And I have no idea why I didn't put it this way before: the opportunity cost recouped also includes skill points that would otherwise have been spent.

With four key skill bonuses as described (which approximate max ranks, btw), the fighter can spend his four skill points elsewhere. That means we're looking at a fighter gaining equivalent skill points equal to 8+int per level. That's skill monkey, plain and simple, and it doesn't fit the archetype that any of us are going for.

Also, I checked the daring outlaw, too. Even though he's the serious skillmonkey, he never gains a take 20 on any skill. Never even a free action feint. No, you really are obsoleting classes that shouldn't be made obsolete.

Ooh, sorta off topic, but why does your daring outlaw get the option of Devious Scoundrel at level 10 when clerics are casting freedom of movement three levels earlier? Ten minutes per CL of auto-success vs. try again once after a delay. Yeah, I know I argue later against bringing things up to caster abilities, but we have some universal application of logic fail here.



In fact, most "epic" uses of skills approximate the effects of 2nd or 3rd-level spells. Thus, gaining a class feature that moves your skill checks into the epic range by level 13 is...well, milktoast. I mean, really, imagine the conversations.
And let's be fair, a magic world ought to mean an anti-magic world. Items are dispellable, but key skill bonuses are not. Sure, this plays into the overpriced-skill-bonii argument, but I don't care about that one anymore, in fact, in my opinion, it's good that it plays in. What considering antimagic does is makes the key skills more desirable: now the DM can't plaster antimagic over the 50ft wide bottomless chasm and hope to stop the party.


It seems to me that what you're really saying though is that fighters shouldn't be better at skill use, even within their specialization, than members of other classes.
No, fighters can buy ranks like the rest of 'em. Any bonus gives them some sort of edge. If we're talking pure logic, then a bonus to a mainstream fighter ability implies a commensurate bonus to a wizard's spellcraft checks. If we're talking game balance, especially out-of-combat, some bonuses for the fighter are fine, not huge ones.


Instead, members of other classes should be better at using the fighter's skills than the fighter is. Am I correct here?
Aw, heeal nah! >.< Where'd that even come from? Because wizards subsume every other class by means of their spells? Suck it, they're T1, that's what they do, and you shouldn't make a T3 fighter try to best a broken class. Now, if you want to pull the wizards down... that I can dig.</not-my-accent>

Now, to deal with those quotes, as hilarious as they were, the underlying point that they demonstrate is flawed.
1) Sneaking isn't even a tertiary feature of the fighter: they don't sneak at all. Okay, maybe it's a tertiary of the cunning fighter, but...

Sneaking is for traitors and cowards, not big, manly men! hahaha ^o^
2) Same thing for scouting and enchanting

Come out and face me, coward!

Fowl enchantress! Begone, I'll have none of your silly tricks!
Seriously, you could see Legolas saying versions of these things... Gimli says all of them, IIRC.

The primary class feature for all fighters is, drum roll please: hitting things to death. It suits them, that's why we play fighters (or fighter-types anyway).
The secondary class features could include inspiration, cheating, defending, blah-dee-blah, but that's just it: they're secondary.

EDIT: "The wall isn't big enough, we need more power!"
"Don't worry Jim, I've got a pill for that."


I still don't think the answer is to give people a class with even more preferential alternatives to the Paladin
Yeah actually, the game balance would be vastly improved if you gave the cleric a mount, paired it's spell list to be more paladin-y, and called it the paladin. No one plays paladin, it's not a break point, and it's the break points that we're interested in here.


Bardic performance is the only unique feature of the Bard that sees a lot of play
Exactly, though bardic knowledge is good if you like make an attempt at not metagaming.


Skill Mastery can extend to all key skills (as it does normally), but the ability to "take 20" on a skill should only extend to the skill(s) that they choose to gain the competence bonus from.
Actually, I'ma go further on this one. Since the daring outlaw has no take 20s, I see no reason to give take 20s to the fighter. I'm not of the opinion that take twenty is something anyone should do before epic: remember it would be cramming twenty minutes into a few seconds usually. If I'm being generous, I'd let the rogue pick a skill from a shortlist at level 17+, he can take twenty on it once a day.


as the Pathfinder Fighter levels up, they gain a higher maximum dexterity bonus to their armor, as well as a lower armor check penalty.
Ooh, now that sounds bloody excellent. Maybe I should look into pathfinder. I definitely vote a yes on integrating this: it's pure archetype, makes RL sense, can't break anything or perturb combined arms, and it's something you want your fighter character to be able to do.


Small competence bonuses applying everywhere > large competence bonuses applying everywhere
I have no idea what you mean by that @[email protected] Edit, please? Oh, I can read the notation, but...

EDIT: I had the wrong quote in here, I think this is the one I meant.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, "no-risk, good-reward" is a better trade than "high-risk, high-reward", even if the payoff is a little less, because you're getting everything for free and without repercussions for inappropriate choices or resource management.
Bang on, sir! but I do have to cite my sources, so yeah, I've integrated this point into the above argument.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-26, 11:42 PM
Yeah actually, the game balance would be vastly improved if you gave the cleric a mount, paired it's spell list to be more paladin-y, and called it the paladin. No one plays paladin, it's not a break point, and it's the break points that we're interested in here.

Very well.

The Fighter just has more features that detract from the Knight-Paladin, which is jikiru's own revision of the Knight and Paladin which, by all conventions, doesn't suck.


Actually, I'ma go further on this one. Since the daring outlaw has no take 20s, I see no reason to give take 20s to the fighter. I'm not of the opinion that take twenty is something anyone should do before epic: remember it would be cramming twenty minutes into a few seconds usually. If I'm being generous, I'd let the rogue pick a skill from a shortlist at level 17+, he can take twenty on it once a day.

But that's what I was saying!


I have no idea what you mean by that @[email protected] Edit, please? Oh, I can read the notation, but...

I had to read this five times, followed by the paragraph you were quoting (in full) five times, before I realized that you were referring to the ">" symbol as literal mathematical notation.

I'm going to have problems with "less is more" around you, aren't I? :smallwink:


Bang on, sir! but I do have to cite my sources, so yeah, I've integrated this point into the above argument.

Thanks.

I'm speaking "out of turn" here, so to speak, but I just wanted to say to jikiru that I have now read your Daring Outlaw, Knight-Paladin and Monk, and loved all of them. I hope my foaming-at-the-mouth rants about your Fighter aren't discouraging. :smallsmile:

Okuno
2011-05-27, 09:54 AM
The Fighter just has more features that detract from the Knight-Paladin,
Yeah, I haven't read that one, except now I am... curse you @see!
Meh, having skimmed it, I'm not sold on that one, really. Maybe the name's just a little off for the idea, or maybe it's that I've never gotten into the whole striker/defender thing as a dichotomy. As it stands, the disciplined and watchful fighters should be able to be built as defenders, and when I think knight, I think cavalry fighter, but maybe that's just me.


But that's what I was saying!

Yeah, pretty much. OTOH, the more I see the lack of precedent, the more I'm like "where does this fit in?" ergo convergent evolution.


I'm going to have problems with "less is more" around you, aren't I? :smallwink:

Ohhhh... okay, that makes snes now. >.>

Pechvarry
2011-05-27, 04:20 PM
I am still of the mind that any homebrew has to pass the test of "would I allow this to be homebrewed into my campaign?"--and if the answer is "sure, but only if I also homebrew x, y, and z to keep this from completely outshining x, y, and z", then as a stand-alone, the homebrew revision has failed; it is dependent on a total class overhaul in order to fit in.

You guys have way too much text for me to keep up, but let me comment on this bit: by this logic, I cannot make any decent class with two-weapon fighting and intimidate unless it's on par with the CW samurai, as it's unfair to the samurai to have classes I would choose over it every time. Jiriku's fighter actually makes your job easier because you need to update fewer classes (since this class replaces so many).

Okuno
2011-05-27, 04:37 PM
You guys have way too much text for me to keep up
Yeah, I know all too well <.< That's alright, I'll cut you some slack and refer to this snippet from above:



I still don't think the answer is to give people a class with even more preferential alternatives to the Paladin


No one plays paladin, it's not a break point, and it's the break points that we're interested in here.


With that in mind, let me address your point:


I cannot make any decent class with two-weapon fighting and intimidate unless it's on par with the CW samurai, as it's unfair to the samurai to have classes I would choose over it every time.

Samurai isn't a break point either. No one plays him, so no one should care if he gets steamrolled by something. There are no logical impediments to your hypothetical TWF class.


Bleh, there's also so much logic flying around it's hard to keep track of it all and how it interacts with itself @[email protected] Maybe I should try to summarize some key principles?

jiriku
2011-05-27, 08:03 PM
To give you some food for thought while I finish fleshing out the watchful fighter bonus feats that I'm working on right now, here's a bit of my thought process on large skill bonii.

All classes need utility functions in order to contribute fully to the game.
All classes specifically need a social capability of some kind.
All classes specifically need a transport capability of some kind.
All classes specifically need an information-gathering capability of some kind.

Without the above abilities, a character may struggle to contribute to certain types of games.

Casting classes typically use spells for utility, social interaction, and mobility. Noncasters typically use skills and/or a mount.

In the rare cases where they rely on skills, casters frequently enhance those skills with magic. Consider spells such as moment of prescience, lore of the gods, divine insight, primal hunter, vision of the omniscient eye, divine presence, spiritual advisor, surge of fortune, invisibility, and jump, which directly enhance skill checks, along with spells such as polymorph, cat's grade, bite of the werebear, sirine's grace and many more, which grant ability bonuses, which in turn improve skill checks.

Given this access to skill-check-boosting magic, it should be understood that a caster will outperform a noncaster, given equal ranks invested in a skill.

In remixing old classes and developing new classes an approach I have taken level the playing field is to provide non-casters and limited-list casters with class features that provide static skill boosts to key class skills. They also get a larger class skill list and more skill points than casters. This enhances their suite of utility options and (at least partially) compensates for their lack of spells.

These boosts serve as a "handicap" to balance against the assumed bonus that a full caster receives through casting skill-boosting spells.

Now, stylistically you may object to these because they "cost nothing", but they do carry significant opportunity costs.

First, there is the cost of a lost class feature, because I would surely have added something else if I had omitted the skill booster.
For the fighter's key skills, there's the cost of the skills not boosted. Selecting a fighting style prevents the fighter from gaining bonuses to the key skills of the other fighting styles.
For the fighter's combat aura, there's the cost of the auras not learned or invoked. Should the fighter select the skill-boosting aura, he permanently gives up the chance to learn a different aura. Should he activate the aura, he forfeits the benefit of every other aura he knows.

Now, you may argue that "other classes don't get cool stuff like this", but that's kind of the point. One of the reasons fighters suck is because they don't get toys that belong uniquely to them. I'm fixing that.

I think there's a valid case to be made that the bonuses are too many and too large. I'm not convinced yet. Really, what can you do with a +20 mod to Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot at 17th level? +20 Spot will help you defeat invisibility (a mere 2nd level spell), but +20 Listen won't break a silence spell. +20 Sense Motive is nice, but a bard 10 levels lower can probably still challenge you with one casting of a glibness spell. +20 Intimidate is useful, but Intimidate is opposed by HD, which scales faster than PC level, so your level appropriate foes are still going to present an obstacle.

So what am I saying? Much of your analysis has consisted of comparing remixed fighter features to what other classes get. I'd suggest instead that you compare these features to what other classes can do. So for example, a beguiler doesn't gain a competence bonus to Bluff checks like a cunning fighter does... but the beguiler is still more tricky, because he can use spells like disguise self, glibness, and major image. The beguiler still wins the "being sneaky contest", even though the fighter's skill bonus allows him to contribute effectively in a social challenge.


Actually, I'ma go further on this one. Since the daring outlaw has no take 20s, I see no reason to give take 20s to the fighter. I'm not of the opinion that take twenty is something anyone should do before epic: remember it would be cramming twenty minutes into a few seconds usually. If I'm being generous, I'd let the rogue pick a skill from a shortlist at level 17+, he can take twenty on it once a day.

Actually, that's a pretty good idea for inclusion in the list of special ability options for the daring outlaw. It could be fluffed as a "stroke of luck" that allows him to perform the task perfectly on the first try.


I'm speaking "out of turn" here, so to speak, but I just wanted to say to jikiru that I have now read your Daring Outlaw, Knight-Paladin and Monk, and loved all of them. I hope my foaming-at-the-mouth rants about your Fighter aren't discouraging. :smallsmile:

No harm, no foul. And flattery is always welcome. :smallbiggrin:

Veklim
2011-05-28, 08:43 AM
Not that I'm actually disagreeing with this point at all but...


One of the reasons fighters suck is because they don't get toys that belong uniquely to them.

Sorry, being a little pedantic, but they DO get unique toys, the entire weapon focus feat tree from spec onwards is fighter specific. They're lame in comparison, but I HAD to point it out, sorry!

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-28, 10:00 AM
Sorry, being a little pedantic, but they DO get unique toys, the entire weapon focus feat tree from spec onwards is fighter specific. They're lame in comparison, but I HAD to point it out, sorry!

...except that warblades can pick that up too, because they count as a fighter of [level-2] for meeting prerequisites. The only unique thing they had, stolen right out from under them by the class meant to replace them. :smallwink:

Seerow
2011-05-28, 10:03 AM
...except that warblades can pick that up too, because they count as a fighter of [level-2] for meeting prerequisites. The only unique thing they had, stolen right out from under them by the class meant to replace them. :smallwink:

With the -2 though, they still can't pick up Weapon Supremacy until epic levels, which is the only really cool feat out of that whole chain anyway.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-05-28, 10:27 AM
With the -2 though, they still can't pick up Weapon Supremacy until epic levels, which is the only really cool feat out of that whole chain anyway.

If you have a way to get an extra feat at 20th (heroics, taint, DCFS, psychic reformation, etc.) you can still pick that up, it just might take some finagling.

Okuno
2011-05-28, 01:43 PM
while I finish fleshing out the watchful fighter bonus feats that I'm working on right now
Yay ^-^


All classes need [X].
Unless X is something basic like breathing, there's some downsides to making these sorts of claims.

Firstly, everyone has their preferred play style. If a player just likes to bash heads in, he won't use the utility/social/cetera options you give him, options given at the expense of bashy options. What's worse, in some cases, the player may feel overwhelmed by what he is asked to worry about beyond what he really wanted to do. Same thing if a player just wants to play a silver-tongue courtier or the party healer. I literally had one fellow PC who only wanted to cast cure spells, to the exclusion of everything else, even though I helped round out his ability to tank; it was weird, but who am I to argue? I'm starting a campaign with my family, but my mom isn't up to snuff with 3.5 like she was with AD&D, so she was thinking to play a straightforward fighter.

Secondly, too many cooks spoil what would otherwise have been a good stew, an this is no less true in D&D. Consider the challenge imposed on the DM when he integrates a social scene and all four of his players are moving in to get a slice of the action. It can be very hard to get people to realize that there are rules of initiative and turn order because these are unwritten. With one or two socialite characters, things can become manageable, and the other players can take a quick break for snacks. Same thing when the rogue goes to scout a bit: if everyone could explore on their own, we'd split the party into too many groups and it'd be a management nightmare. With one scout, he can go scouting a little, the rest of the party grabs a cookie and there's no problem.

This actually is where I think I'd like the Burning Wheel social combat system if ever I could get a group to play with it instead of familiar old 3.5. </OT>

Now, it'd be intellectually lazy if I didn't point out that I ascribe to the theory that every class should have combat options, which is clearly of the form I'm criticizing. At first sight, I'm not sure how to handle this apparent contradiction, but I've got a couple paths I can pursue. Firstly, the majority of D&D comes down to combat a lot (there are lots more bash-in-doors groups than full-on method actors, and the groups in between have sufficient combat, too), so combat options may turn out more important (and better organized) than any other sort of conflict. Secondly, I might just admit that some classes shouldn't really have combat options. In fact, I'm halfway there already if I ever create the much-needed spy class.

D&D is about a party working together, so a better thing to say might be that every party needs utility options, social capability, transport, information gathering, and combat ability. The DM can then still run adventures with multifarious challenges and not everyone will feel like they need to be on-edge, ready to act all the time.

Now, I'm not arguing that each class should be railroaded into exactly one party role, but for a basic class like fighter, they should have a primary role and excel at it. Other roles should be secondary and kept to no more than two. That said, the cleric should (even after fixing it into something like a T3) have better utility options than the fighter because that's what they do. Wizards are similar, but are given blaster options as well and it's up to the player to decide what style they need that day. A fixed paladin would cater to a player's desire to bash heads and cast divine spells. I'm itching for an acceptable wizard/fighter so I can cast fireball before running into the action. Core classes provide the depth of focus, hybrids provide breadth of field.

Your fighter is primarily a front-line stabbity kinda guy. I like the idea that he can secondarily buff, and I like the idea that skills are no longer a non-starter. Similarly, it's great that you can choose to become a little more versatile by picking the cunning, barbarian or commander kit. Ultimately, their ability to fill a utility role needs to be secondary, though. If you want to play a utility person, choose a skillmonkey class, or a hybrid class like your remixed monk.

A class should represent the broad goals of the player in the game, not just a packet of powers that can do anything the player wants to massage it into. Enough classes means that the player can easily get where he wants without being overly distracted by build paths or blindsided by a better build from another class.

If we take five basic roles (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, spy), then make hybrids of these and we have 20 classes minimum (which your fighter handles more than one). Then we add flavor-y classes like the ranger and druid, and we can fit the player to the class nicely without being overwhelmed with minor variants. That's all system-level balance, but it illustrates nicely the role classes are meant to play as a mechanism.


All classes specifically need an information-gathering capability of some kind.

Now, this one I'm getting more perturbed about everyday. Information-gathering is a party role that is wholly underrepresented and overrepresented by the rules. It's underrepresented insofar as there is no basic spy package. The bard almost counts, but not really because it's really a backup class. It's overrepresented because any wizard or cleric who wants to cast a divination spell can find out anything. And they have options to buff/debuff. Oh, and they can massively kill, too?

If I, or someone, can work out a spy class, then we can pretty much drop divination and enchantment from the wizard spell lists and cut down on its illusion too. The spy then would be a good 5th party member option along with the bard, so your 5th player wouldn't feel as forced. </rant>



Without the above abilities, a character may struggle to contribute to certain types of games.
The druid (if it weren't T1, i.e. properly crafted), would suffer in an urban campaign. This should be the case. It does create a problem for the DM, but not an overwheming one, in fact, a barely perceptible one.

Every DM lets the players know what kind of game they'll be playing. If it's a bunch of rooms with monsters, then the DM say you don't need a rogue and a player who always plays rogues (in addition to needing a little attitude adjustment) can choose not to play, or the DM can try to add something if he's up to it. If its urban espionage and subterfuge, the fighter doesn't need to come into play unless it's run with a sense of humor and it's okay if the fighter blows everyone's cover. The DM, as the organizing force, already tailors the classes and the challenges to fit each other. Having to tailor an adventure for a fighter is no more work than he is already doing. His job is made harder if he doesn't know before he writes up some ideas if his fighter player will be swinging his axe blindly or trying to manipulate people. As you said, options are powerful, and I shoot back with powerful enough to break the game, so you should be restrained with them. Not totally restrained, but have some respect for them.


Given this access to skill-check-boosting magic, it should be understood that a caster will outperform a noncaster, given equal ranks invested in a skill.
I'm generally not talking about what specific things a player can do, that's more Tylenol's tactic. I'm more worried about making the fighter be a T3/4 than making him break even with a T1. I don't care how the fighter balances with the samurai or the paladin, because they are too far away balance-wise to be of comparative use. The same problem, if not a worse one, exists trying to compare the fighter to T1/2 casters. I know I've only said it about T5/6, but after bumping it in it's refined form...

Trying to cross a giant chasm and have used up your fly spells for the day? Jump doesn't have personal range: cast it on your party's fighter, who btw has ranks and skill bonuses, because he's the most likely to jump the gap. You'll have two players being engaged at a time instead of only the one, and the whole party will agree if you've got a decent group. I remember I was going to buff a fellow PC, but the party caught that it'd be more effective if I cast it on my cohort, so that's the strategy we chose, and I ended up rolling more dice. People are fine, even happy to be left out a little.

And remember, it's far easier for a DM to counter magic than raw, mundane skills. The bonuses granted are (Ex), so they're as difficult to counter as pure ranks. I wouldn't recommend making them (Su), that would suck, just remember how hard it is on the DM to create a challenge if the fighter essentially grows intangible, uncounterable wings through his epic skill use.


Now, stylistically you may object to these because they "cost nothing", but they do carry significant opportunity costs.
What Tylenol and I have in mind is not the opportunity cost of one class feature as opposed to another, but the cost of using features once the player already have those features.

Like Tylenol said, a caster still has to choose when he casts his spells; if he casts willy-nilly, his opportunity cost is that he'll be eaten later in the day. The fighter OTOH can use his aura until the pigs fly home to their frozen hell, and he pays nothing for that. This is a massive free lunch, which is bad on economic principle, but is also a problem for the feel of the game. What a free lunch does 1) is discourage smart play and 2) make the players take that lunch for granted, reducing the feature's ability to create fun.

This is no stylistic difference of opinion: we disagree over the psychological facts of how rules drive the way the game generates fun. (And I'm on the fact's side, na-na-na-boo-boo XP ^o^)

Now, I see, and have already seen, that there is the class feature cost. I've suggested some features to account for the loss of free lunching it, and Tylenol has suggested another ability as well which could offset as well, though I'm not sure that was his intension. With these new features and a proper nerf of the aura, the fighter actually gains in fun call-ons as well as passive abilities without reducing the power of the class too gratuitously.

If this makes any sense, my argument is not that this fighter is over powered, it's that it sometimes applies its power in the wrong places.


One of the reasons fighters suck is because they don't get toys that belong uniquely to them. I'm fixing that.
Oh, I can dig it, but auras and skill bonuses aren't the only way to give them toys. The pathfinder-style improved armor use is a massively cool toy, and you can integrate it easily in such a way that only fighters get it. Exceptional strength has already been integrated in that way, and the ability to full attack as a standard action likewise (and that feature surpasses your monk's flurry toy, too). I bloody love cool toys, but just adding toys detracts from other (relevantly balanced) classes' toys, too, and that's not good for the game as a whole, even if it might be good for the fighter.

(Oh, I looked over the pathfinder armor familiarity or whatever it's called, I'm surprised it allows an effective +8 to armor class with a properly dexxed fighter 0.o)


+20 Intimidate is useful, but Intimidate is opposed by HD
Hmm, I've never really used intimidate much (probably for this reason), but that's a problem with the trunaming skill, too. They fixed the skill and left the class alone. Shouldn't it be by CR anyway? Because a sqishy mindflayer shouldn't be that intimidatable. Just a bit of idea-debris.


Much of your analysis has consisted of comparing remixed fighter features to what other classes get. I'd suggest instead that you compare these features to what other classes can do.
To be fair, Tylenol specifically analyzed what your fighter could do and compared that with what a rogue could do. We're totally on the boat with this one. I'm maybe less able to see the "can do"s, but that's because I haven't pushed myself to be a builder. Once a see a "can do" example, I'm all over it, as long as it is an example pulled from a relevant class about a relevant class role.


So for example, a beguiler daring outlaw doesn't gain a competence bonus to Bluff checks like a cunning fighter does... but the beguiler daring outlaw is still more tricky, because he can use spells like disguise self, glibness, and major image... um, nothing, I guess? Skill points, but there are max ranks, so no...
Here's a problem. No real problem I see with your example, as the beguiler fills a good bit of the spy role, so let's indeed have him be trickier than either the fighter or the rogue, but shouldn't the cunning fighter should be more like a cunning fighter. The daring outlaw, having better combat capability than the vanilla rogue is already closer to being a cunning fighter than the rogue is. To protect the niches of your system, you'll want to remember that you originally called the cunning fighter a thug, and that's what fits the fluff, too. Remember, just as fighters don't have to be dumb, neither do thugs: "I'm a respectable employee of a respectable businessman, wink wink, nudge nudge." Let cunning fighters buy their ranks: not every streetman of the thieves' guild need be a smooth-talker.


It could be fluffed as a "stroke of luck" that allows him to perform the task perfectly on the first try.
I like that fluff, actually. It could turn me around about take 20 issue. That feature would also pull that class more in like with the intro fluff about luck, which mostly relegated to the feats.


I didn't think I had that much to write 0.o Oh well, for victory!

nonsi
2011-05-28, 05:11 PM
As usual, your hombrewing keeps supplying interesting stuff, and you've probably created the king of kings of customization, but . . .

I think that this time you've overlooked an important hombrewing rull: KISS (keep it simple stupid).

The class details spread on so many pages that it has practically become a mini game in and on itself.

I'm sure I'll have quite a bit of interesting stuff to read in its detailed description, but I believe it to be impossible for such a lengthy detail not to comes somewhat at the expense of practicallity.

jiriku
2011-05-28, 05:36 PM
Posted 10 additional watchful fighter feats, themed around vigilance, tanking, and protecting others.

Reduced max skill bonus on key skills from +20 to +10, and eliminated the "free 20" option at 17th level.

Specified that kit feats can only be taken when acquiring your first level of fighter, and you can only ever learn one kit feat.


...everyone has their preferred play style. If a player just likes to bash heads in, he won't use the utility/social/cetera options you give him, options given at the expense of bashy options. What's worse, in some cases, the player may feel overwhelmed by what he is asked to worry about beyond what he really wanted to do.


I think that this time you've overlooked an important hombrewing rull: KISS (keep it simple stupid).

The class details spread on so many pages that it has practically become a mini game in and on itself.

I hear that! There's an amazingly elegant homebrew class by Benly called the divine soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192302) that comes to my mind. It's innovative, functional, flexible, effective... and the entire class fits on one page. I can't write classes like that. I wish I could. My classes are option-rich, but they're also complicated, and low-involvement players do get intimidated by the pages of STUFF.

How can I simplify the remixed fighter? I suppose I could strip out the "kit" concept and present the weapon master fighter as "THE" fighter. Then I could present the kits as ACFs. That would offload a considerable amount of text from the OP and reduce the "required reading" to learn the basics of the class by 80%. Hmm. I like it. Imma do it.

Edit: I am currently performing a comprehensive rewrite of the fighting style class feature and all posts relating to fighting styles or style-specific feats. This will take me several hours. Please hold.

Okuno
2011-05-28, 08:48 PM
I'm sure I'll have quite a bit of interesting stuff to read in its detailed description, but I believe it to be impossible for such a lengthy detail not to comes somewhat at the expense of practicallity.

I mean, let's see WotC write out 4-7 classes (I forget all the extant classes it subsumes) and their feats in that little space... ^o^

While it's relevant, I prefer to have the progression for each kit together rather than split as you have it now. That way, I can more easily size up what each kit is good for.

That's probably part of your idea as you do that reorganize thing, jiriku (omg, I think this is the first time I spelled it right <.<)

Regardless, if the DM integrates it, he ought to be able to coach some as well, especially during build time. I think once it sees play this fighter really only has one extra thing over the old fighter to worry about, and that's the aura. Oops, my bad: two things, 'cause he can redo feats. My unwritten strategy would be like the way I deal with cleric spells: get a few loadouts ready and switch between with perhaps some tweaks for specifics instead of rethinking everything all the time.


Reduced max skill bonus on key skills from +20 to +10, and eliminated the "free 20" option at 17th level.
To 10, huh? Further than I estimated. I found +16 at 18th to be not unreasonable, so that could mean +15 at 17th (to keep it easy and with the existing fighting style bumps). I guess since you're keeping the kit feat option, but that might be hurting the non-kit featers if that's the reasoning. EDIT: Oh, no wait, you've not cut any of the key skills! That makes more snes than my line...

I like the new feats. Particularly, challenging gaze just seems like the perfect sort of Worf-y goodness. Armored Menace is nice, too, though I was thinking sticky AoC instead. We don't see many feats that only work in heavy armor ^.^

We'll see if the aura gets time-limited tomorrow, I suppose. In the meantime, I've got some copy-paste to do. (And all the manual re-formatting helps me know what's going on)

jiriku
2011-05-28, 11:38 PM
Aaand it's done. Wow, that was time-consuming.

Weapon Master fighting Style is now the stock fighting style for the fighter. the other fighting styles are now described as ACFs, and I've simplified the page for each ACF to make it a little quicker to read through. Building a "stock" fighter now requires a lot less reading.

Additionally, I've removed the Second Style and Third Style class features and all of the kit feats, and replaced them with two new feats, creatively named Second Style and Third Style. I've also added an Extra Key Skill feat, since the fighter now has to pick and choose his key skills.

I'm thinking that to please the Combat Aura crowd, I may provide an ACF for it. How about an option that permanently doubles the bonus, but limits you to a small number of rounds per day?

Merk
2011-05-29, 08:23 AM
I'd really like to see an "armor training" ability, similar to the pathfinder ability, that lets you move more efficiently in medium and heavy armors.

Veklim
2011-05-29, 08:51 AM
It really is true, you just can't please some people....

:smallwink:

jiriku
2011-05-29, 09:08 AM
Armor training will be available as bonus feats. I was going to hold this back to release with a number of other feats I'm developing/revising, but since the demand is so great, I'll go ahead and spoil it here. :smallamused:

ARMOR OPTIMIZATION, HEAVY [Fighter, General]
You have trained extensively in heavy armor and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (heavy), base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you are wearing heavy armor, lessen the armor check penalty of the armor by 1 and increase the armor bonus by 1.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 3 and increase the armor bonus by 2.
If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 5 and increase the armor bonus by 3.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 7 and increase the armor bonus by 4.

ARMOR OPTIMIZATION, LIGHT [Fighter, General]
You have trained extensively in light armor and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers and stay agile while wearing it.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (light), base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you are wearing light armor, increase the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor by 1.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, instead increase the maximum Dexterity bonus by 2.
If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 1 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus by 3.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 2 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus by 4.

ARMOR OPTIMIZATION, MEDIUM [Fighter, General]
You have trained extensively in medium armor and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (medium), base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you are wearing medium armor, lessen the armor check penalty of the armor by 1 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor by 1.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 2 and increase the armor bonus and maximum Dexterity bonus by 1.
If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 3, increase the armor bonus and maximum Dexterity bonus by 1, and ignore the movement penalty for wearing medium armor.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 5, increase the armor bonus and maximum Dexterity bonus by 2, and ignore the movement penalty for wearing medium armor.

Merk
2011-05-29, 09:30 AM
Nice, I like these, especially that they work differently for different armor types.

Okuno
2011-05-29, 11:12 AM
Spiffy ^-^ And that organization does make it easier to read through. The spoilers underneath "Playing a Remixed Fighter" ought to be a massive benefit for understanding. I can't wait to see what the witch hunter will look like (probably because I don't know why that wouldn't be a build or PrC?).

EDIT: I ought to mention that I largely like the new key skill system. Choice of two to start, maybe a feat for a third, halved bonuses from earlier. It provides more flexibility than the suggestions I was tossing around and has roughly the same amount of power. Depending on the answer to a question below, I may or may not like the second/third style key skill system. If it works the way it seems to read, a fighter can get up to seven key skills, that'd be roughly 7.3 equivalent skill ranks to a level (9.4 for barbaric and cunning), moving the fighter to half-skillmonkey easy, possible full monkey. Not nearly as bad as before, but weird nonetheless.


Additionally, I've removed the Second Style and Third Style class features and all of the kit feats, and replaced them with two new feats, creatively named Second Style and Third Style. I've also added an Extra Key Skill feat, since the fighter now has to pick and choose his key skills.
Heh, not sure what I think about moving that stuff to feats, but it could reduce the complexity, so I think I like it. Simple solution to put them in general so that retraining is bypassed, nice. A question about how the key skills interact with multiple style feats: do you gain the bonus as an X fighter of your total fighter level or as some number of levels less?

That was murder to smush that into one question, so lemme clarify: with second style in X fighter, you qualify for X fighter feats as if you were eight levels less than your actual fighter levels. With skills, do you likewise count as 8 levels less, or do you gain the full key skill bonuses?

EDIT AREA2: I'ma vote the former. That'd move the fighter's possible equivalent skill ranks to (I'm I' just WAGing this one, but) 4+1.5+.7+.3=6.5 (8.5 for certain kits). Then the fighter maxes around half-skillmonkey instead of maxing at full orangutan (^o^). [For external observers, jiriku rogues get 10/level.]


I'm thinking that to please the Combat Aura crowd, I may provide an ACF for it. How about an option that permanently doubles the bonus, but limits you to a small number of rounds per day?
The whole aura to ACF? That'd be no good. I mean, my opinion is really summed up in that first spoiler from post #93. Most importantly, it makes the aura work a number of rounds per day equal to your fighter class levels. That might be too low, but somewhere around there is good. Some other commensurate options are one round per encounter per four/five full fighter levels, or 3+Cha modifier times per day for one minute at a time. If weather the storm was made mainly for travel through snow/&c, then it can easily have a longer timescale.


Nice, I like these, especially that they work differently for different armor types.
I dunno, given how some features have been offloaded into feats, I'd say a crunchy benefit like this would do better as part of the class, especially if it isn't broken up into different armors. OTOH, the feats give each armor a different feel, which is nice. Maybe just give the player's choice of one of these as a bonus feat? They aren't likely to want to retrain it ever.

jiriku
2011-05-29, 12:41 PM
A question about how the key skills interact with multiple style feats: do you gain the bonus as an X fighter of your total fighter level or as some number of levels less?

The key skills are added to your primary fighting style and thus function at your full fighter level. This is powerful. However, given the steep character level prerequisites on these feats, and given the number of levels the character has suffered through without the ability to spend skill points at the class skill exchange rate, this is powerful in a justified and paid-for way. Compare to my remixes of other skill-enhancing feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201014).


The whole aura to ACF? That'd be no good. I mean, my opinion is really summed up in that first spoiler from post #93. Most importantly, it makes the aura work a number of rounds per day equal to your fighter class levels. That might be too low, but somewhere around there is good. Some other commensurate options are one round per encounter per four/five full fighter levels, or 3+Cha modifier times per day for one minute at a time. If weather the storm was made mainly for travel through snow/&c, then it can easily have a longer timescale.

I think we simply have an irreconcilable difference of opinion on the power and usefulness of static auras. When I look at the dreadful failures that are the dragon shaman and marshal classes, I see where WoTC assumed that a static aura providing a single bonus was a mighty thing, and so they wrapped a weak chassis around this supposedly "powerful" primary feature, but ultimately the class did nothing, because its "primary" feature was essentially a low-level persisted buff spell. The combat aura is a secondary feature at best.

The long duration and easy activation of the aura is nothing to get excited about. It's comparable to the various party-buffing stances in the White Raven martial discipline, or to the many long-duration buffs that spellcasting characters typically cast on their party before entering an adventure zone. Although such buffs may last only hours, they might as be "all-day" buffs since the party usually retreats and rests once they wear off.

The magnitude of the aura is likewise unimpressive. The spells that it mimics, such as mass resist energy, mass longstrider, mass conviction, and the like provide similar or greater bonuses, and are available to many classes.

The effects the aura provides are likewise nothing to write home about, as, again, they can largely be duplicated by 1st - 3rd-level spells. At best, the fighter may be able to offer a buff that is incrementally better than what another party member can provide, but it's quite likely his buff stacks with those of his allies, so the fighter enhances his ally's ability rather than overshadowing it.


I dunno, given how some features have been offloaded into feats, I'd say a crunchy benefit like this would do better as part of the class, especially if it isn't broken up into different armors. OTOH, the feats give each armor a different feel, which is nice. Maybe just give the player's choice of one of these as a bonus feat? They aren't likely to want to retrain it ever.

I knew you would say this. :smalltongue: The question to answer when deciding whether to make something a fighter class feature or a fighter bonus feat is "Will absolutely every fighter want to have this?" If the answer is no, it needs to be a feat. Incidentally, that's why I rebuilt Second and Third Style as feats.

Not every fighter will want to tinker around with the numbers on his armor. Some fighters won't wear armor, instead multi-classing with a class that grants benefits while unarmored. A fighter who prefers light armor and has a modest Dexterity might not see any benefit from the Light Armor Optimization feat. Conversely, a charge-focused fighter with Shock Trooper might be planning to dump his AC into the basement and would not be particularly concerned with improving his AC. Another fighter might take the opposite tack, and wear different armor grades in different situations, or at different points in his career. Such a fighter would want more than one of these abilities, but won't need more than one at a time. This practically begs to be a fighter bonus feat, a modular option that can be added, changed or removed based on the fighter's short-term need.

Okuno
2011-05-29, 03:58 PM
given the number of levels the character has suffered through without the ability to spend skill points at the class skill exchange rate, this is powerful in a justified and paid-for way.
Fair enough, but it sorta doesn't fit the fluff, I guess. Sure the fluff is less important, but a sudden nevermind, I'm still thinking old bonus progression. There would actually be no super-sudden jump at levels 9&17, I see what you did there... <.<


I think we simply have an irreconcilable difference of opinion on the power and usefulness of static auras.


Although such buffs may last only hours, they might as be "all-day" buffs since the party usually retreats and rests once they wear off.

Actually, I don't think they're irreconcilable at all. I've started with one round per fighter class level, but as that's been percolating, that just seems too little (IIRC I hinted that before). The other suggestions I tossed out, which make the aura usable more like rage is, I think would be more suited, and you've said why in that second quote I pulled.

How often does a fighter need his auras? He's got plenty of power for the orcs in leather, but anytime something looks mean, he can turn on the aura and not worry too much about running out for the day. If we go a minute per, that aura, more often than not, has essentially lasted the encounter.

A little thought on the part of the player put into the aura goes a long way towards increasing engagement with the game.


The combat aura is a secondary feature at best.

Now obviously, this was about the marshall &c, but if we're going to leave the Bard something unique, the aura has to be secondary here. I think you agree here? I don't recall anything you've said specifically regarding that one.


The magnitude of the aura is likewise unimpressive.
Yeah, I get that impression. I think my write-up had a minus one to the DR so it's less than the vanilla barbarian's class feature (seemed an okay ruler, but I just got on forums and don't have all the historical buzz), and I also doubled the boost from the Follow My Lead. Tweaking on that level is a matter of testing and taste.



it's quite likely his buff stacks with those of his allies, so the fighter enhances his ally's ability rather than overshadowing it.
Yeah, and it's this stacking thing which makes the aura meaty instead of unimpressive. That's what we're looking for, right?

I'm not arguing for time limits on the aura because omg! overpower!. Instead, I think the aura is a cool feature that has a cinematic flair. By time limiting it (remembering the same exploit long-duration buffs have), you can draw the players' attention to that feature in a natural way which would improve the sense of high action.

I make no similar argument about key skills or armor proficiency because their not cinematic. I don't use the argument on countering strike or true grit because those are call-on, and so attention is already drawn. I'm just kinda worried that the fighter will put up his Motivate Attack aura and leave it up all day and the players will notate and forget.


I knew you would say this. :smalltongue:
Tee-hee, excellent. That means I have internal consistency ^.^


This practically begs to be a fighter bonus feat, a modular option that can be added, changed or removed based on the fighter's short-term need.
I was thinking that retraining can handle modularity issues. And 90% of fighters will armor up, so they'd benefit. I wouldn't suggest taking anything away from the main class to stuff it in, so if unarmored characters don't need the feat, they can ignore it. It's not a big quip, though, since there are good reasons either way.
Crap, the way the system is set up, such a feat would not abide by retraining, which is really the linchpin of how I saw my suggestion working.

So many mistakes today T.T I'ma give it a rest for a while...

jiriku
2011-05-29, 11:04 PM
OK, cinema I can buy. Drama I can buy. Fun I can buy. But how to make it work, exactly? You can set a duration limit on the power, but there's nothing to stop a PC from saying "I will continuously reactivate the power every time it wears off." A per-day limit seems silly. "Sorry, you've run out of inspirational things to say today, but wait until tomorrow and I'm sure you'll be a more effective leader then"? Gimme a break. The power isn't significant enough to justify a move- or standard-action activation cost. What does that leave us with?

Seerow
2011-05-29, 11:17 PM
I have to agree that as is they are fine as being unlimited use. The majority of the auras are similar in power to very low level spells, having them up at all times at no resource cost isn't game breaking.

What is being suggested is making it mirror bardic music, where it has limited uses per day and a set duration, if this is what you want, compare it to bardic music, I'm just going to say it doesn't really add up. Indeed, it is at best half as effective as the lowest bardic music ability (see: Inspire Courage vs Motivate Ardor), and without the options that a Bard has to make it stronger, much less the higher level uses for it that are more effective.

What I'm getting at is the combat aura really isn't powerful enough to justify a limited duration. If you want to limit its use so that it is used situationally and tactically, I can get behind that, but the benefit needs to be much more powerful (how much more powerful depending on how much you limit the duration).

Like if you go bard-esque duration, where it's 1 use per level, with 5-10 rounds per use, I'd say just merge some of the auras, make hit and damage come together. DR and energy resistance. Things like that.

If you go with a more limited duration, like fighter level in rounds per day, or 1/4th fighter level rounds per encounter, the abilities should be far more potent, akin to a level appropriate spell or combat maneuver, the sort of thing that will turn the tide of battle. This is potentially an interesting route, but it turns a minor neat benefit into a class defining one.

Okuno
2011-05-30, 04:22 PM
Swift activation is fine, it makes sense in my mind as the fighter calling out directions as he fights, not a big deal. I perfectly agree that move/standard action is silly.

Now, about uses per day being silly: welcome to D&D. I'm sorry, you can channel energy to smite/turn/rebuke, but only X times a day. Spells likewise. And bardic muisic? Nope, you can only play so many songs a day. I play instruments, that's a total load: professionals can play for hours nonstop. Don't get me started on hit points, because they have the same root problem (see below). Per encounter is just as silly.

Truenaming works right (not in how well it can affect stuff, instead): it has unlimited uses per day, but the DC gets higher. I'd be all for the casting of spells making a sorcerer tired and less able to cast, or hp damage causing weariness effects, but at some point you'd be better off playing a different system than trying to fix D&D. Let's not toss out existing, well-known mechanics because their unrealistic just because of a single class.

Remember your priorities (as far as D&D is concerned, other systems have different priorities): 1) get it past a DM, who is likely to be lazy; 2) fluff it classy so it can duplicate known characters and archetypes, providing good creative material; 3) realism.

So that handles jirku's points (albeit through my least favorite argument tatic of tu quoque <.<), now to address Seerow's. I'm running a comprehensive match-up as I type. The spoiler's just some incomplete notes, meh:


Countersong: the figheter's auras can't be countered as easily. (IIRC they're Ex, and I wouldn't change that to Su, either, Ex suits the fluff) The big thing that can counter the aura (Silence) counter's the bard's music, too.
Fascinate: When it works, this one is more powerful than the fighter's stuff, I'll grant that easy. OTOH, you still have to make a skill check for it to work. Requires concentration, but 1.5 times the aura range. Oh, just noticed limited targets.
Inspire Courage: Pretty nice, not min-maxable, for what that's worth. OTOH, it only helps one ally. You'd only pick up on that by noticing the use of "an" everywhere rather than single, but it's a single ally nonetheless. (Single ally for something fluffed like that is bloody ridiculous, I'm houseruling it whenever I get a bard player). Half the range of the aura, and finally, they can't use it on themselves.
Inspire Competence: Half the range of the aura and only one ally affected. Furthermore, can never be used on some skills if the DM rules so. Requires concentration.
Suggestion: Good spell to mimic, but it requires using fascinate. That totals the annoying stuff to a perform check, another use of bardic music, a will save and SR.
Inspire Greatness very useful ability, not unlocked until level 9. Limited targets buffed.
Song of Freedom: Takes a minute to use. Mimics a spell the bard can already cast by that time.
Inspire heroics: Same ally limits as greatness. Half the range of the fighter aura. Full-round activation time. Mimics two aruas, but doesn't scale.
Mass Sugesstion: Same problems as suggestion, but compounded for each creature you want to affect.


So, the results of my bard-friendly comparison:
All bardic music has the following drawbacks: the suppression of spellcasting ability and ability to activate command word items; and the an enemy's ability to countersong; required ranks in perform; at least a standard action activation time; limits on duration underneath five minutes; limits on number of uses per day.
Some drawbacks only exist on certain abilities: the requirement of a skill check on (3/8 abilities); can't buff themselves (1/4 relevant abilities); half the auras range (2/8); single target (3/8); limited targets in range (3/8); level limits to access abilities (6/8); full-round or longer activation time (3/8); will save to negate (1/4); either of two will saves negates (2/4); ability to counter using dispel magic (4/8); requires (as in it lasts less than a minute after stopping) concentration or continuous playing (4/8).
Three of the abilities grant good bonuses, when they can be used.

Lots of limits, omg lots. Average number of limits is between 6-7 (can't be botherd to calculate, so I'd guess 6.3) (and all that's for what it's worth, it's more of a qualitative number -.^) And complicated ones, too. It's a nightmare keeping them straight. I probably miscounted: I already caught myself a few times. I don't like those limits, frankly. But that's an OT conclusion.

Relevant Conclusions: The limits on the bard's abilities make the abilities' relative value too close to call in my view. Considering the bard has his stuff as a primary feature and the fighter has an aura as a secondary (I've heard no disagreement there), then too close to call is too powerful for the fighter. Let's not forget that using an aura cuts down only one swift action, allowing the fighter to continue to massacre while the bard just sits buffing.

Suggestions: I wouldn't cut the magnitude of the aura, but that's especially 'cause I'm making a quick bard rebalance when I get to it. Still, I wouldn't nerf magnitude anyway. I wouldn't change the activation time, it's fine. I might have suggested that it takes swift actions to maintain, but thinking on it, that cuts into some of the fighters main class features and would unnecessarily reduce the amount of time we would see the aura getting use. Plus, no action to sustain fits with the fluff of the fighter calling out "the armor's weak in their groins!". If the party knows, the party knows. I wouldn't limit affected allies: same reason.

You can reduce the range, and you may have to brace yourself for the admitted absurdity of times/day, but I adressed that above.

Given that you brought up the fact that a fighter can just tell the DM he re-ups when the aura comes down, here's what I'm thinking:

Auras last through the encounter
An aura can be activated a number of times per day equal to (say) 1/2 fighter levels+positive CHA bonus. Fill in your own numbers.
the range of the aura is 5ft per fighter level (that starts it at 15, brings it to 100), this would represent the fighter's ability to pay attention and pick up on more stuff in combat.
Allies who move out of range continue to gain benefits. Allies who move into range after activation gain benefits once they do so (and keep those benefits when they move away, like normal).
Give Weather the Storm an option for out-of-combat use as a way to mitigate the effects of tundra/desert/whatever. This would last not through an encounter, but for 1hr per fighter level. Give the range limit something generous, such as within hearing distance.
Follow My Lead lasts for 1min per fighter level. Like Weather, a generous range limit. Possibly double the bonus, put that could put Inspire Competence to shame.

Adjust to fit. It suddenly becomes something that looks familiar to D&D players. Particularly, it'll become palatable to DMs and the class will see more use. It continues to be a useful ability, seeing practically no reduction in power if the player uses it right, and I need not mention the psychology all over again. On top of all that, it's pretty simple (unlike bardic music).

Of course, if you just wanna come out and say "aura is a tool that fills a primary fighter role", then that's your prerogative. After this much argument, you'll take it or leave it, it seems.

jiriku
2011-05-31, 09:08 PM
Omigosh. Dood. No wonder you think the fighter aura is powerful. Dood. Omigosh. Inspire courage. Inspire. Courage. Man. It is party-affecting, and is easily the most min-maxable ability a bard gets. With heavy optimization, a bard can obtain values of +10 to hit +10d6 damage on all allies' attacks by 8th level. Inspire courage under heavy optimization is like crack cocaine for the whole group. It can throw the entire party completely out of the RNG for anything even remotely resembling a level-appropriate challenge. Dood. Omigosh.

Seerow
2011-05-31, 09:30 PM
Now, about uses per day being silly: welcome to D&D. I'm sorry, you can channel energy to smite/turn/rebuke, but only X times a day. Spells likewise. And bardic muisic? Nope, you can only play so many songs a day. I play instruments, that's a total load: professionals can play for hours nonstop. Don't get me started on hit points, because they have the same root problem (see below). Per encounter is just as silly.

All of your examples there are supernatural in nature. Spells? Supernatural. Smite/Turn/Rebuke? Supernatural. Bardic Music? Supernatural.

A Bard can play his instrument all day long if he likes, but he can only activate the supernatural effects of his music every so often. Even so, in some cases, such as inspire competence, it lasts as long as he keeps singing, then some duration afterwards. So your bard can literally inspire courage all day if he wants, as long as he doesn't want to use a different bardic music ability or spellcasting ability.

Either way you were talking about far more restrictive durations than bardic music. Someone said something like 1 round per day per fighter level. That is absurdly low. Compare to the Bard that gets 1 use per day per bard level and each use lasts several rounds baseline, and many can be maintained longer.


Truenaming works right

No.


nspire Courage: Pretty nice, not min-maxable, for what that's worth. OTOH, it only helps one ally. You'd only pick up on that by noticing the use of "an" everywhere rather than single, but it's a single ally nonetheless. (Single ally for something fluffed like that is bloody ridiculous, I'm houseruling it whenever I get a bard player). Half the range of the aura, and finally, they can't use it on themselves.

This is laughable. If you actually think that's RAW it explains a lot about why you might think the auras are too strong. The first line says explicitly:


A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself),

Not an ally. Not one ally other than himself. All allies and himself. In the description it is using the term "an" because if it said "All allies must be able to hear the bard sing for the bonus to take effect" someone trying to read it half as strictly as you are reading the way it is written would take it to mean if a single ally is deaf or otherwise incapable of hearing the performance then nobody in the group would get the bonus. The way it's written is everyone gets the bonus, then individuals may be excluded from receiving the bonus if they don't meet certain conditions.

Also, not min-maxable? Only if you don't try hard. There's a whole handbook full of stuff to boost this. Masterwork instruments, spells, feats, magic items, you name it there's stuff to boost inspire courage. This is literally the bard's bread and butter, and the main thing you want to compare any aura to when determining effective power of an aura.


The other bardic music abilities are pretty niche, but they're handy and give options in general, as opposed to numbers like the fighter auras here. I mean, the Bard gets the ability to charm a dozen people and start using suggestion on them, the Fighter gets the ability to gain +2 AC. The bard adds +2 to any skill check, the fighter adds +1-4 to a couple specific skill checks.


Yes, the bard has restrictions, which for the most part boil down to "Your target must be able to see and hear you" and "You can use this in total X times per day"

I believe Jiriku's fighter aura already requires targets to be able to see and hear you, if you also tacked on the uses per day, then the auras become on average far worse than bardic music in every way at every level.






Now with all of this said, I personally don't see the Fighter as a leader type, and don't think it needs the buffing ability. I just think that if jiriku's fighter is going to have that as part of its schtick, it should be decent at that schtick, not worse at it in every way than everyone else out there who also fills it.

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-31, 11:48 PM
I concur. Since the Bard already beats the Combat Aura by a landslide, it's superlative. I myself (as I have mentioned before) prefer T.G. Oskar's Marshall retooling to this commending fighter anyway, and the flavor can still fit. The Marshall is the awesome fighter who leads his armies into battle, and the Fighter is that hardcore guy who is the armies he leads into battle.

Okuno
2011-06-01, 03:02 PM
Oy - so much picking up on things I don't care about. I'ma attack some obvious misconceptions (and not just other peoples, let's be fair) before moving to what matters.

"Every farmer owns a horse."
Now, you might think this a straightforward (though false) claim. On the other hand, it could mean that there is a single horse which is concurrently possessed by all farmers.

If we're trying to parse the meaning of Inspire Courage off of determiners like "his" and "an", we run into ambiguity. This ambiguity lies mainly in that there is no context which can place the determiners as actual or modal. Furthermore, the quote you pulled, Seerow, is technically a fluff statement, the sort that appear all over the place right before they introduce the serious rules. You'll note that I mentioned the likelihood of ambiguity, and I now wholeheartedly maintain that such ambiguity exists after having pertinent features demonstrated.

Conclusion (I might point out from a formal systems analysis perspective): you've made an unconscious interpretation based on what makes in-world sense. I was unconsciously tripped up by the overuse of singular constructs, until I consciously considered in-world sense and made a houserule. The rules remain meaningless until an interpretation (note: interpretation is a 'special' form of houserule (I suppose that's a radical stance, but I dare you to provide a concrete differentiator (too may nested parenthesis (what is this, LISP?)))) is made on way or the other.

You should take special note that we agree on the RAI. Just wanted to clear up the idea that I can't read, kthx.

Because it is so off-topic, lemme explicate my stance on truenaming in here, since it has been so horribly misread (in no small part due to my brevity):

Lots of abilities work by channeling supernatural powers. In-universe even, this can tire out the spellcaster/whatever. See: War of the Spider Queen with all the mage-battles between Gromph and that lich wherein the casters become more and more tired after casting. Times/day does not readily convey this tire-out effect.

With truenaming, there's no daily limit on use except insofar as it gets harder to use the more you use it. The mechanic can, with a quick re-fluff) simulate the caster becoming tired. That's what works about it: flavor.

What doesn't work is the exact numbers. The numbers being off mean the conjunction of propositions that can be called the truenaming system is broken.

We both know the system doesn't work, but that doesn't mean there are no good ideas behind it. The fact that those good ideas exist is evident in that some very surgical truenaming fixes that have been written up.

Have some measure of charity in debate, you know, if something makes no sense to you, admit to yourself that you might be reading it wrong. IIRC, that's a Grecian conversational maxim <.<



All of your examples there are supernatural in nature. Spells? Supernatural. Smite/Turn/Rebuke? Supernatural. Bardic Music? Supernatural.
Hp is supernatural? Hadn't noticed, but I didn't expand on that facet, and don't care to write the lengthy OT argument. So here's more examples, then: rage, Jiriku's own Change of Tactics feat, and even more damningly, his own Grant Move Action feat (underneath the commanding fighters style feats). I don't know you that well, but I know you have the ability to extrapolate if you care to.


With heavy optimization, a bard can obtain values of +10 to hit +10d6 damage on all allies' attacks by 8th level.


There's a whole handbook full of stuff to boost this.

Ok, so I missed all the extraneous support that music has and the fighter aura doesn't, good point. OTOH, I'll just have to keep it in mind for future critiques, since my argument is along totally different lines as I show below (and thought I had shown previously @[email protected])



Someone said something like 1 round per day per fighter level. That is absurdly low.
I did, before I looked up any bardic music stuff. Keep up with my revisions, my latest one is right there in the post you're responding to.

Before it happens, 'cause all of a sudden I'm apparently really unclear: ability to revise beliefs is a good thing. If you don't think so, it's indicative of a crystalline fragility of thought. I particularly draw heavily from the eastern ideas of suspension of belief/disbelief and valuation, so my ideas tend to stay really fluid.


I believe Jiriku's fighter aura already requires targets to be able to see and hear you
...so I didn't count those restrictions because they're a noise signal, I know.


Yes, the bard has restrictions, which for the most part boil down to "Your target must be able to see and hear you" and "You can use this in total X times per day"
Actually, you'll note things like saves, activation time, and preconditions in my list.


Now with all of this said, I personally don't see the Fighter as a leader type, and don't think it needs the buffing ability. I just think that if jiriku's fighter is going to have that as part of its schtick, it should be decent at that schtick, not worse at it in every way than everyone else out there who also fills it.
So much good my prior arguments did, I guess. You know, the break-point, combined arms, role niches arguments. Whatever, in with the rest of it it's tl;dr, and I'm not making them again when I can start the argument where it would be on topic.

Now, the real junk:


they're handy and give options in general, as opposed to numbers like the fighter auras here.
Yep, yep.


No wonder you think the fighter aura is powerful.
Did I say that?


Now, I've been taught that volume does not an argument make, but since I don't appear to be heard:


I don't think the overall power of the aura should be reduced.
I have instead suggested, in the mix, mild increases to some aura abilities.
I don't think the aura invalidates bardic music in sum.
I do think there are psychological reasons to place mild time limits on the aura.
Any limits imposed on the time available to use the aura should, through intelligent play, be able to approximate unlimited use. Intelligent here does not mean optimized, nor does it require optimization.

As mentioned above, I have revised some previous beliefs in the light of new evidence. Particularly, the fact that bardic music is supported by extensive extra-class feature rules and options has caused me to solidify my belief in list items 1 and 3. However, these belief-revisions do not affect items 4&5, which are the very items I am mainly arguing about.

Let's not forget the linchpin of my argument is best summed up:

"no-risk, good-reward" is a better trade than "high-risk, high-reward"
And this is something no one will be able to break.

Now that I've reached serious repetition, including repetition of other people, I expect I'll peace out of the aura argument.

jiriku
2011-08-25, 09:39 AM
Changed key skill options for the Weapon Master Fighting Style to Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Jump, or Spot. These are the discipline skills for the martial disciplines available to a warblade, except for Spot, which is the discipline for the various archery-themed homebrew martial disciplines on this forum. This should enable the fighter to get better use from the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats, if he chooses to take them.

Additionally, added Intimidate as an additional key skill option for the Disciplined Fighting Style, since its Staredown and Mass Staredown features are Intimidate-based.

The witch hunter fighting style is still pending a writeup of its associated feats, which tentatively include the following ideas:
Resists mind control
Counters and deflects ray spells using cold iron weapons
damages force effects using cold iron weapons
Guaranteed chance to save against ability penalty, damage, drain, negative levels
General bonus to saving throws, or maybe damage reduction, or maybe gain temp hp, whenever saving against magic or supernatural effects

Other suggestions for the witch hunter are welcome.

Ziegander
2011-08-25, 10:48 AM
I haven't been here in a long time, but it looks like some things have changed. Why the move of the fighting styles to ACFs to be replaced by the much more bland "weapon master fighting style?"

Also, I can't see where the class is supposed to get fighter bonus feats ever anymore. Not in the table, not in the class features descriptions. Am I blind or is Martial Aptitude useless at this point?

Seerow
2011-08-25, 10:55 AM
I haven't been here in a long time, but it looks like some things have changed. Why the move of the fighting styles to ACFs to be replaced by the much more bland "weapon master fighting style?"

Also, I can't see where the class is supposed to get fighter bonus feats ever anymore. Not in the table, not in the class features descriptions. Am I blind or is Martial Aptitude useless at this point?

In the table, he has a separate column for fighter bonus feats. I almost missed it as well. It should however be put into the text.

Ziegander
2011-08-25, 11:03 AM
In the table, he has a separate column for fighter bonus feats. I almost missed it as well. It should however be put into the text.

Oh... well now I feel stupid. I never look before the class features column for columns other than saves or BAB. I'd put the fighter feats column after the class features, but before the auras. I don't think I'd have missed it then.

jiriku
2011-08-25, 05:14 PM
This has been sitting idle for a while because I got wrapped up in other projects :smalleek:. Right now I'm writing a full-length adventure module and building a bunch of fighter NPCs, so I'm adding improvements as I make them. I'll continue to tweak over the next few months as playtesting from the module generates feedback.

The fighting styles have been ACF'd because several people complained the class was too long and complicated. Everything's still there, but now the tl;dr crowd can get the meat of it faster. Personally, I prefer options, but I'm trying to streamline my 'brew. The suggestions about column arrangement and a text entry for the feats are great ideas, and have been implemented.

Mulletmanalive
2011-08-25, 06:14 PM
slightly random request, Jiriku, but I like to have comparables when i'm looking at things; do you reckon that you could find some fictional characters who exemplify these fighting styles [which are awesome btw].

Off hand, Matt from Wheel of Time is pretty commanding, Richard Sharpe is a rager, as is Gutz, but i struggle to come up with many others, aside from Samurai types...

jiriku
2011-08-26, 06:27 AM
Hmm, interesting request.

Weapon Master Style
Maximus from the movie Gladiator
Jon Snow from the Game of Thrones book cycle

Barbaric Style
Fafhrd, from Fritz Lieber's Lankhmar series
Conan the barbarian
Kull the conqueror
Bran Mak Morn
Gotrek Gurnisson, from the Gotrek and Felix series of novels set in the Warhammer universe
Tarzan

Cavalry Style
Lessa, F'Lar, and the other dragonriders in Dragonflight, the first novel of the Dragonriders of Pern series.
Ser Loras Tyrell, from the Game of Thrones novels
The medieval French and English knights of history.
The knights of the Round Table from Arthurian legend (although not Lancelot or Galahad, who work miracles and are better characterized as paladins).

Commanding Style
Boromir, from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy
King Arthur of Arthurian legend
Winston Churchill
Commissar Yarrick from the Warhammer 40k universe
Sun Tzu

Cunning Style
Sandor Clegane from the Game of Thrones novels
Edit: I'd add Boba Fett here. A cunning style fighter makes a great bounty hunter.

Disciplined Style
Miyamoto Musashi
Yeah, any samurai really.

Watchful Style
Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, from the Lord of the Rings trilogy
Ned Stark, Lord of the North, and Jory Cassel, Captain of the Guard at Winterfell, in the Game of Thrones novels



Apart from that, I'm kind of at a loss. The influences that I draw on include Poul Anderson, Isaac Asimov, Piers Anthony, Greg Bear, Terry Brooks, Orson Scott Card, Arthur C. Clark, Philip K. Dik, Stephen Donaldson, David Eddings, Raymond E. Feist, Robert A. Heinlein, Tracy Hickman, Robert E. Howard, Robert Jordan, Ursula K Le Guin, C.S. Lewis, H.P. Lovecraft, Anne McCaffrey, George R.R. Martin, Michael Moorcock, Larry Niven, Andre Norton, R.A. Salvatore, J.R.R. Tolkien, Margaret Weis, Tad Williams, Roger Zelazny.....

And at least a hundred others. Sometimes a feat or a class or a variant just bubbles up from somewhere and I really don't know where it's come from.


Edit: Additional change made. Condensed the Hardy Soldiers and Weather the Storm combat auras into one combat aura that provides both damage reduction and resistance to all energy types.

General Patton
2012-08-09, 06:25 PM
Since I am a firm believer that every PC should attain functional immortality at some point, I came up with a Feat to fulfill that with a character archetype I've never seen in D&D.

RIGOROUS VITALITY [FIGHTER]
Prerequisite: Martial Physique, Fighter Level 12th
Benefit: On any day in which you used Martial Aptitude, you only age by a number of hours equal to 24-your character level-Con Modifier. Keep track of your actual age for purposes of calculating mental ability score bonuses, but use your modified aging rate to calculate physical ability score penalties and the age at which you die. Additionally, magical aging effects can never leave you with less than 1 year of life left.
Advancement: If your character level+Con Modifier is greater than 24, you will, in fact, age at a negative rate until you achieve the minimum age in the oldest age category to lack physical ability score penalties. Additionally, once per day, you may spend an additional hour training to grow Con Modifier number of days younger.

Vadskye
2012-08-11, 01:45 AM
Jiriku, I love your True Grit idea. Do you mind if I use that for my own homebrew I'm working on?

Zale
2012-08-12, 03:22 PM
Witch-Hunter looks interesting.

jiriku
2012-08-18, 09:09 AM
@General Patton: A good feat idea. I'd suggest that the benefit of not aging is so slight in the typical D&D game that you could dispense with most of the complexity of that feat. For example:

RIGOROUS VITALITY [FIGHTER]
Your physical discipline grants you eternal health.
Prerequisites: Martial Physique, Fighter Level 12th
Benefit: You no longer suffer penalties to your ability scores for aging (even magical aging). Any penalties due to aging that you may already have when you gain this feat are removed.
Advancement: If you have character level 20th or higher, you no longer die when you reach your maximum age.


@Vadskye: Feel free! The idea isn't even originally mine, but is a variation on an idea I lifted from an earlier fighter fix presented in this forum a few years ago.


@ Zale: I hope so! Sadly, its development has languished for a very long time. My current players prefer casters, so the witch hunter has moved to the back burner. I've written or coauthored seven caster classes since breaking ground on the witch hunter, but I'm currently working on a revision to my monk remix, and the witch hunter will be next after that's complete. It's probably still a few months away, but I promise that it's never been forgotten.

General Patton
2012-08-18, 02:41 PM
@General Patton: A good feat idea. I'd suggest that the benefit of not aging is so slight in the typical D&D game that you could dispense with most of the complexity of that feat. For example:

RIGOROUS VITALITY [FIGHTER]
Your physical discipline grants you eternal health.
Prerequisites: Martial Physique, Fighter Level 12th
Benefit: You no longer suffer penalties to your ability scores for aging (even magical aging). Any penalties due to aging that you may already have when you gain this feat are removed.
Advancement: If you have character level 20th or higher, you no longer die when you reach your maximum age.

How does that interact with retraining?

Veklim
2012-08-18, 04:27 PM
If you have a character who takes this feat for any mechanical purpose, why on earth would you retrain out of it?!

You do raise an issue though, should some feats be 'locked', i.e. put a Special section in saying this feat cannot be retrained...?

Zale
2012-08-18, 05:03 PM
I guess you'd take penalties for aging as normal.

And if you're past your maximum age, then well, you'd drop dead.

Fun stuff that.

General Patton
2012-08-18, 08:29 PM
This is why my first draft of the feat was overly complicated. It allowed you to exercise to the peak of health, until you're back to the prime of your life, and then let off of the routine for a while.

Edit: By the way, part of my inspiration for this was Mighty Moe (http://grimadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Mighty_Moe).

jiriku
2012-08-19, 09:15 PM
How does that interact with retraining?

Catastrophically, I would imagine. :smalleek: Probably better to make it a [General] feat rather than a [Fighter] feat, then.

Edit 10/19/2012: Revamped several features for the cavalry fighter ACF.

jiriku
2014-05-27, 11:23 AM
Updated tables for new forum code.
Minor changes to layout (removed a lot of spoiler tags).
Updated and improved the Red Tides of War tactical feat for watchful fighters.

jiriku
2016-08-24, 10:22 AM
*Casts raise dead upon the thread.*

nonsi
2016-08-24, 10:41 AM
*Casts raise dead upon the thread.*

... agenda...?

INoKnowNames
2016-08-24, 12:31 PM
... agenda...?
~"That would be mine" said Dumbledore, as he walked through the entrance to the Great Hall.~

I meant to drum this up a little bit ago, but I've had my eye on this homebrew for quite a while. I had a few questions related to some features of it (mostly the Weapon Master, which is the part I like the most, but I'd been wanting to look into the other variants too), but otherwise find myself HIGHLY intrigued by it. It's... almost unprecedented that I've found myself wanting to play a melee class that featured no Tome of Battle or casters/magic added onto it. Just me, mah big ol' impractically huge sword, and a very simple yet refined set of training. Let's go cut up some bad-guys!



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light, medium, and heavy armor, and with shields (but not tower shields). As part of his fighting style, a fighter gains proficiency with one exotic weapon, armor, or shield (such as a tower shield).

Weapon Master Fighting Style (Ex):
Your style grants you proficiency with a single exotic weapon, armor, or shield of your choice. You also gain Weapon Focus (with a weapon of your choice) as a bonus feat.
Just being clear: does this mean that the Weapon Master Fighter has -2- Exotic Proficiencies, or is this just restating the basic Fighter Bonus Exotic Proficiency? I could see a reading saying that all Fighters get 1, and that the Weapon Master gets 2. I could also see a reading in which -just- the Weapon Master gets 1.


Exceptional Strength (Ex):
This bonus applies equally to melee, thrown, and ranged weapons, unarmed strikes, and natural attacks (if you have any), but cannot be used in conjunction with abilities that allow you to apply a different ability bonus to damage instead of Strength (such as the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle).
What if, be it by item or multiclass or what have you, you gained the ability to -add- a different attribute to damage, instead of merely substitute?


Peerless Reactions makes certain choices MUCH more powerful for you than they were previously. Keep an eye out for ways to gain abilities that can be activated as a swift or immediate action, since you can now use those abilities twice as often.
I probably have not re-read enough yet, but were immediate/swift action abilities meant to be provided in chassis? Or would that be something one would be intended to grab through feats or multiclassing?


SECOND STYLE [General]
You are familiar with the basics of another fighting style.
Prerequisite: Fighter 9th
Benefit: Select a fighting style other than the one in which you are trained, and select two of the skills available as key skills to students of that style. Both of those skills are added to your fighting style and become fighter class skills for you, and you may select one of them as an additional key skill for your fighting style.

Additionally, you may now choose Style feats in the new fighting style using your fighter bonus feat slots (only), but you must reduce your fighter level by 8 when qualifying for and advancing these feats. You still use your full character level with these feats for effects that check character level.
I'm having a -little- trouble wraping my head exactly on how this works. One idea just as prevalent as the sword-lord is the badass riding utop some incredible monster, but I'm not 100% sure how this interacts with the Wild Cohort feats of the Cavalry style (and whether or not the base Wild Cohort feat could be taken as a fighter bonus feat or one of your normal feats or what have you). I assume 3rd Style is much the same, regardless.


PEERLESS EINHANDER [Fighter, Style]
You possess exceptional skill at fighting mobile battles with a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other hand.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Spring Attack, Fighter 4th, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Just out of curiosity: why does this require Dodge and Spring Attack, but seem to skip Mobility?


PEERLESS ZWEIHANDER [Fighter, Style]
You possess exceptional skill with a two-handed weapon.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Weapon Focus with a two-handed weapon, Fighter 4th, Weapon Master Fighting Style
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon for which you have Weapon Focus, your attacks are severely distracting; opponents you attack suffer a 20% miss chance against everyone but you. This effect applies even if you miss, and lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Is the last part of the last line supposed to seem redundant? Or is that there in case the Fighter were to decide to change tactics after a round, I suppose?


WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [Fighter, Style]
Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe, for which you have already chosen weapon focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for the purpose of this feat. You deal more damage and can attack more often when using this weapon.
Is this meant to entirely supersede the regular Weapon Specialization feat, including for requirements concerning other feats along that line? Or is this Style version distinct from the vanilla version?


Benefit: When you attack with the selected weapon, you deal damage as if it was one size category larger. This benefit does not stack with other effects that cause your weapon to deal damage as if it was larger in size.
Does this stack with actually having a larger weapon, such as some medium creature wielding a Large x by virtue of Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, or Strong Arm Bracer?


Armor training will be available as bonus feats. I was going to hold this back to release with a number of other feats I'm developing/revising, but since the demand is so great, I'll go ahead and spoil it here. :smallamused:
I have no real comment about these other than how awesome they are. Normally I try to get the least clunky light armor I can find because I don't like what skills I do attempt to be hampered. Now, Medium -and- Heavy armor actually look tempting.


@General Patton: A good feat idea. I'd suggest that the benefit of not aging is so slight in the typical D&D game that you could dispense with most of the complexity of that feat. For example:

RIGOROUS VITALITY [FIGHTER]
Your physical discipline grants you eternal health.
Prerequisites: Martial Physique, Fighter Level 12th
Benefit: You no longer suffer penalties to your ability scores for aging (even magical aging). Any penalties due to aging that you may already have when you gain this feat are removed.
Advancement: If you have character level 20th or higher, you no longer die when you reach your maximum age.

I noticed that you and a few others found this scary to be retrained. I'd like to note that this sort of thing very much could, if not almost should, be retrainable. I don't see a specific downside to it; it's not like someone can mind-control you to retrain a feat, and how would someone know that an epic level fighter's training made them ageless? Particularly when there are certainly other ways to accomplish this effect as to make "Push Ups, Sit Ups, and Plenty of Juice" seem impossible by D&D standards.

In fact, I'd actually come up with acute scenario with a friend involving this ability. A human fighter who had fallen in love with an Elf, and trained themselves while adventuring together, and more so even during retirement to protect their family (and still the world) until reaching this pinnacle of perfection. At which point, the fighter could live for as long as their beloved did. And when their charge finally takes their final rest, the fighter's job finally finished, they too could relax and plant their weapon in the ground one more time, before dissolving with the wind, to be with their partner in spirit forever.

jiriku
2016-08-24, 08:11 PM
Just being clear: does this mean that the Weapon Master Fighter has -2- Exotic Proficiencies, or is this just restating the basic Fighter Bonus Exotic Proficiency? I could see a reading saying that all Fighters get 1, and that the Weapon Master gets 2. I could also see a reading in which -just- the Weapon Master gets 1.

the weapon master fighter get one exotic proficiency as part of his style package. Other fighter variants lose this benefit. Your default fighter has proficiency with tower shields (which I think of as an exotic shield), yet few fighters actually use one. I have generalized this proficiency to be any one piece of exotic equipment, so that it's a real benefit for every weapon master. In my house campaign, I've also restatted all the ****ty exotic weapons to be more useful, but in a general campaign there's also the additional feature that a fighter can take proficiency with a "cool-looking" but suboptimal exotic weapon without having to spend a precious feat slot.



What if, be it by item or multiclass or what have you, you gained the ability to -add- a different attribute to damage, instead of merely substitute?

Exceptional Strength only ever improves Strength. As further commentary, you do get the benefit if you can somehow use Strength for ability checks and skill checks that don't normally use it (such as some 3rd party or homebrew feat allowing you to use Strength instead of Charisma when making Intimidate checks). But you do not get it for using Strength on other rolls, even if you used some special feature to use Strength where you normally couldn't (for example, if you somehow found a way to apply Strength to Fortitude saves).


I probably have not re-read enough yet, but were immediate/swift action abilities meant to be provided in chassis? Or would that be something one would be intended to grab through feats or multiclassing?

Countering strike is an immediate action class feature provided on the chassis. But mostly what I had in mind was abilities from prestige classes and activation of magic items. The Item Compendium, for example, includes a lot of weapon abilities, armor abilities, and miscellaneous items activated this way.


I'm having a -little- trouble wrapping my head exactly on how this works. One idea just as prevalent as the sword-lord is the badass riding utop some incredible monster, but I'm not 100% sure how this interacts with the Wild Cohort feats of the Cavalry style (and whether or not the base Wild Cohort feat could be taken as a fighter bonus feat or one of your normal feats or what have you). I assume 3rd Style is much the same, regardless.

Wild Cohort is not a [style] feat, but let's use Weapon Specialization as an example. Suppose that Elric a 9th level weapon master fighter, takes Second Style and chooses the Barbaric fighting style. He now qualifies for Barbaric [style] feats as if he was a 1st-level barbaric fighter, so by training for an hour he can select Rage in one of his bonus feat slots. When the rage feat checks his character level, it sees him as 9th level, so he can rage three times per day. However, when reading the Advancement entry of the feat, Rage sees him as only a 1st level fighter. This means that while a pure barbaric fighter would advance to larger rage bonuses at 11th level, Elric won't get those bonuses until 20th level. The design principle here was to strike a balance where the fighter can't use advanced moves from his second style, but the basic moves he can use should function reasonably well. If you find that overly complicated, you could simplify and have the fighter always count as level-9 with feats from his second style, or you could drop the penalty entirely and have him always use his full fighter level.


Just out of curiosity: why does this require Dodge and Spring Attack, but seem to skip Mobility?

Mobility does not exist in D&D Remix -- it has been rolled into the Dodge feat. You'll find revised Dodge and Spring Attack feats in the Swift Hunter thread. I have also collected all the modified/new feats for D&D Remix into a MS Word document, the Book of Feats. If you'd like a copy, PM me your email address and I'll send it to you.


Is the last part of the last line supposed to seem redundant? Or is that there in case the Fighter were to decide to change tactics after a round, I suppose?

That sets a duration on the effect. As soon as you make an attack against an opponent, you debuff that opponent until the beginning of your next turn. In any round where you do not attack an opponent, you do not inflict the debuff. It's essentially a 4e-style mark that operates on a round-to-round basis to encourage your melee opponents to attack you.


Is this meant to entirely supersede the regular Weapon Specialization feat, including for requirements concerning other feats along that line? Or is this Style version distinct from the vanilla version?

Yes, the Weapon Specialization [Style] feat entirely replaces the regular Weapon Specialization feat. As you look through the support material for my Remix classes, you'll often see published feats that have been extensively reworked. As long as the name remains the same, the new version of the feat is intended to entirely replace the old. This will be true in all of my published homebrew.


Does this stack with actually having a larger weapon, such as some medium creature wielding a Large x by virtue of Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, or Strong Arm Bracer?

Yes, it stacks with actually having a larger weapon. One of the new design spaces in Remix is that there are a lot of ways to gain virtual size category increases with your weapons. This is intended to provide an alternate path for improving damage other than just pumping up a stat into the stratosphere or adding small, crappy static bonuses (it also makes the choice of weapon more relevant, whereas in stock D&D a high-level character's base weapon damage is often a trivial part of his damage output). However, in play I found that players could stack these virtual size category increases to deal grotesque amounts of damage by mid levels. The no-stack restriction was intended to close that loophole.

On a barely related tangent, I've also recently come to the conclusion that all effects which double damage should not stack with one anything except the critical hit multiplier. This closes the door on some abusive charger builds that deal hundreds or thousands of damage per round. I haven't yet taken the time to go write that into all my stuff, though.


I have no real comment about these other than how awesome they are. Normally I try to get the least clunky light armor I can find because I don't like what skills I do attempt to be hampered. Now, Medium -and- Heavy armor actually look tempting.

Thank you. :)


I noticed that you and a few others found this scary to be retrained. I'd like to note that this sort of thing very much could, if not almost should, be retrainable. I don't see a specific downside to it; it's not like someone can mind-control you to retrain a feat, and how would someone know that an epic level fighter's training made them ageless? Particularly when there are certainly other ways to accomplish this effect as to make "Push Ups, Sit Ups, and Plenty of Juice" seem impossible by D&D standards.

In fact, I'd actually come up with acute scenario with a friend involving this ability. A human fighter who had fallen in love with an Elf, and trained themselves while adventuring together, and more so even during retirement to protect their family (and still the world) until reaching this pinnacle of perfection. At which point, the fighter could live for as long as their beloved did. And when their charge finally takes their final rest, the fighter's job finally finished, they too could relax and plant their weapon in the ground one more time, before dissolving with the wind, to be with their partner in spirit forever.

Aesthetically, I struggle to imagine a guy who is hundreds of years old and in perfect health because of his phenomenal physical fitness, but is liable to die during his regular morning workout if he retrains the feat. It just seems campy. From a design philosophy perspective, I also want to encourage players NOT to take set-in-stone feat choices with their bonus feats, because inevitably someone will accidentally break his character or do something illegal when changing feats and neither the player nor the DM will notice it until months later.

Still, your example indicates that D&D is a big tent -- there is room for a variety of approaches. As with all my work, feel free to adapt it to your own game in whatever way works for your group. :)

I Hope that helps! Thanks for your interest in my work -- I still get PMs from people who are using Remix even all these years later, and knowing that people are having fun gaming with this stuff makes the hundreds of hours I spent developing it all worthwhile. :)

tsj
2016-08-24, 11:10 PM
Very nice class. Are all your remix classes Tier 3?

Edit... seems the remix monk is tier 4.

You have made a lot of interesting classes. I am trying to make a list of all tier 3 classes... I want to add as many of you classes as possible to my list.

I was wondering which of your classes besides fighter are tier 3? :-)

jiriku
2016-08-25, 12:07 AM
I would classify the following as Tier 3 classes:

Remixes: fighter, healer, knight-paladin, soulcrafter, swift hunter

New classes: machinist, magician, magus of blades, dawnblade, earth dreamer, emberhaunt, storm lord, wavekeeper

The shapeshifter and avatar are broken and don't really work. Revamping them is on my to-do list (but probably won't happen for several more years with my current schedule). The shadowcaster, void disciple and summoner are nominally Tier 3, but have a very high power ceiling with heavy optimization. I've significantly revised them since initial publication to simplify them and reduce their power ceiling, but they still have some big guns. The daring outlaw and monk are Tier 4 classes.

tsj
2016-08-25, 12:23 AM
I would classify the following as Tier 3 classes:

Remixes: fighter, healer, knight-paladin, soulcrafter, swift hunter

New classes: machinist, magician, magus of blades, dawnblade, earth dreamer, emberhaunt, storm lord, wavekeeper

The shapeshifter and avatar are broken and don't really work. Revamping them is on my to-do list (but probably won't happen for several more years with my current schedule). The shadowcaster, void disciple and summoner are nominally Tier 3, but have a very high power ceiling with heavy optimization. I've significantly revised them since initial publication to simplify them and reduce their power ceiling, but they still have some big guns. The daring outlaw and monk are Tier 4 classes.

OK thanks :-)
High power ceiling might be OK since I recently let high tier 3 classes enter the list. So it is now mid to high tier 3 classes.

I will add the classes to the list and update it once I get some time for it :-)

My plan with the T3 list is to allow players to play any charecter concept they want using only tier 3 classes.

Atm I am depending heavily on raising and lowering core classes to Tier 3 using tiered prcs.

Only native T3 classes gets to select a single optional prc and only a prc that does not alter their tier...
In order to avoid builds breaking free of T3

Ps: cool "hammertime" avatar pic :-)

jiriku
2016-08-25, 08:16 AM
One of the thing I enjoy most about gaming under my rules is that my players can play whatever concept they want without worrying about whether the concept is represented by a "bad class." The game is a lot more fun when the T5 and T1 classes are pruned out.

tsj
2016-08-26, 01:41 AM
@jiriku:
Exactly. But if all classes were Tier 3 then every class should be perfectly balanced to each other (in theory at least) :-)

nonsi
2016-08-26, 02:01 AM
@jiriku:
Exactly. But if all classes were Tier 3 then every class should be perfectly balanced to each other (in theory at least) :-)

Perfect balance is a myth.
Each class has its strengths and weaknesses - even if all of them are T3.

tsj
2016-08-26, 01:21 PM
@nonsi: true but we can strive to get as close as possible :-)

nonsi
2016-08-26, 04:14 PM
@nonsi: true but we can strive to get as close as possible :-)

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes a T2 class might be ok and lowering it to T3 might cause it to lose too much in the process, ending up with a T3 that's ok on paper but not so much fun in practice.
It's good to aim for T3, just don't let in your way

tsj
2016-08-26, 11:58 PM
What I'm trying to say is that sometimes a T2 class might be ok and lowering it to T3 might cause it to lose too much in the process, ending up with a T3 that's ok on paper but not so much fun in practice.
It's good to aim for T3, just don't let in your way

In my view, a class like that needs rewriting or needs to be replaced by one or more classes... like the tier 1 wizard class should be replaced by a bunch of tier 3 classes each with a single school as their focus... like ie. Dread necromancer and beguiler

nonsi
2016-08-27, 12:48 AM
In my view, a class like that needs rewriting or needs to be replaced by one or more classes


Insisting on this approach might somtimes cost you the loss of character concepts.





... like the tier 1 wizard class should be replaced by a bunch of tier 3 classes each with a single school as their focus... like ie. Dread necromancer and beguiler


Problem with this approach is severe lack of symmetry.
The Beguiler actually revolves around 2 schools: enchantment and illusion.
Also, I don't remember ever encountering other suggested countrparts for the remaining 4 schools that withstood the test of time.
As for the classes you mentioned - they lose their effectiveness with level progression. Monsters become resistant to mental manipulation, damage can't keep up and undead become less and less impressive.

jiriku
2016-08-27, 11:52 PM
In my view, a class like that needs rewriting or needs to be replaced by one or more classes... like the tier 1 wizard class should be replaced by a bunch of tier 3 classes each with a single school as their focus... like ie. Dread necromancer and beguiler

Yes. That's the design philosophy I followed when creating the earth dreamer, emberhaunt, storm lord, wavekeeper, void disciple, summoner, and shapeshifter classes. I also built the ritualist and magician to create lower-power versions of the generic wizard and sorcerer. It's a sad irony that the wizard contains so much versatility that it could be split into 12+ narrower classes, while the martial classes are so narrow that I could combine 4 of them into the remixed fighter.

tsj
2016-08-28, 12:33 AM
@nonsi: advanced learning should help with that along with wands, staffs etc...

@jiriku: nice :-) and yes, the difference in versatility in the core classes is staggering.