Spryte Warlock or DFA? Help!

[Smeggedoff]

Right, I'm starting a new new character next week since my old one got crushed by a roc (nasty incident involving a sleep spell). I've got the general outline hammered out but I could use a bit of advice.

Race is Spryte (from Arcana Evolved), starting level is 6. I want to try one of the invocation classes but I'm not sure where to go Warlock 6, Dragonfire adept 6 or to grab the three racial levels of spryte in there somewhere.

Any advice please?

[Halae]

From what I can tell, the biggest difference is a matter of flavor.

The spryte is a fey, yes? flavor-wise, that's your best bet then, since they can work off of a deal with Titania just as easily as saying you sold your soul to Asmodeus, and is a lot easier to explain than the fact that there's probably some sort of dragon in your lineage

[Amnestic]

I prefer DFAs personally (Entangling Exhalation is awesome. Fivefold Breath of Tiamat is awesome), but Warlocks are plenty effective too.

[Smeggedoff]

Yeah, I prefer DFA's generally, love dragons. But It's true that a Fey style character would fit Warlock a lot more :-/

It's why I'm having trouble deciding.

[Lateral]

Well, your biggest decision here would be "flavor, or power?" Dragonfire Adepts are quite a bit better than Warlocks (enough to move them up a tier), but they fit the flavor worse. Also, it may depend on party balance- if your party is all Sorcerers and Warblades, go with DFA, but if they're barbarians and fighters, go warlock.

[Amnestic]

You could play a DFA using the Warlock fluff if you're concerned about power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiCznGaex2c). Fluff can be malleable and all that.

[MeeposFire]

One way to decide. Do you prefer damage or control. Warlocks can get higher damage more easily while DFAs can get more control more easily. Both are really good.

Can a fey with fey powers make a pact to gain warlock fey powers? I mean they already are fey with fey powers:smallwink:.

[Smeggedoff]

Well, Warlocks either make pacts for more power or have a little bit of demon/fey in their bloodline which gives them more power right?
Dragonfire adepts are solely the blood thing I think.

So flavour wise I either have

A Fey with fey ancestors
a Fey with demon/devil ancestors
a Fey with dragon ancestors
A fey who made a pact with fey for more power
a fey who made a pact with demons/devils for more power.

I decline to comment on power since my GM reads this forum and sccuses me of powergaming anyway (how true that is, however, is a moot point. *makes shooing motions*)
I wouldn't say no to build/equipment advice however.

I think I've decided on Warlock though.
(*mumblegrumble* this means I have to redraw/edit my character arts)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, I'm wondering where the 'warlocks have no battlefield control options' thing ever came from in the first place, considering they have amazing battlefield control options.

At level 6, you have 3 least and 1 lesser invocation. You have the following options:

Summon Swarm - although by now, the pathetic DC's have already hit the point of diminishing returns, and probably not reliable as a Save or Loose cloud

Beshadowed Blast - Fort save or Blind. PLUS damage.

Charm. You're fay, they do things like that. Plus, this gets you into Mindbender dip for Mindsight. Will save or be my best friend.

Frightful Blast. If anyone else in the party is also going for lesser fear effects (Barbarian going Intimidating Rage perhaps), this is a nasty one-two combo. You hit 'em with Shaken, then they ramp it up to Panicked or even Cowering. Again, in addition to your regularly scheduled blastomancy.

Also, Call of the Beast sounds particularly handy. Wild Empathy + Speak With Animals.

Of course, it's once you hit 11 that your options really show up. Slow + damage, Dungeoncrasher + damage, Black Tentacles + Cold damage, Confused + Damage, Nauseated + Damage...

The thing about Warlock battlefield control is that everything is in addition to, rather than instead of, damage.

Also remember, a DFA cannot spam the same breath every round, a Warlock *CAN*.

It really depends on what you are wanting to do.

Do you want a lot of area-effect stuff that has reflex save for half but can provide amazing battlefield control from level 1? Go with DFA.

Do you want solid damage output on touch attacks that do not allow a save, plus being able to stack Save or Loose effects on top of it? Go Warlock.

Warlocks also have a lot more utility in general, since they have more Invocations known. This lets them pick up handy and useful things like Flee The Scene, which can be used on other party members. Worried about that pit and it is too far to jump? Fine, we'll just DimDoor past it. Because DimDoor has this handy little caveat to it:


You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

So that's not just personal 'get out of trouble' card, that's 'port n pwn' capability. From level 11.

[Amnestic]

Also remember, a DFA cannot spam the same breath every round, a Warlock *CAN*.

They can spam Entangling Exhalation every round. They can utilise Slow Breath every two rounds. Spamming their control breath is not an issue for them.

They get Baleful Geas at 11th too, which is either entirely useless (10 minute cast time) or exceedingly awesome (standard action cast time) depending on how your DM deals with "Otherwise works as per the spell" vs. "Invocations are therefore a standard action".

[MeeposFire]

I don't think that anybody was saying warlcok had bad control we were just saying less control than a DFA.

At will entangle plus constant slow (which if the pass their save they are still slowed long enough for you to do it again) and solid fog with damage makes it really tough for anybody to move. Plus if you want to do the fear game DFAs are much better at that since they have less restrictions on it and have more powers to play with for that. Touch attacks are worse than never needing to roll at all to hit. A DFA could wear plate at level one if they wanted to since the penalty to attack rolls means nothing to them.

Better damage or better control. Crafting or better skills. Fiendish/fey or draconic these are the questions you want to ask.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't think that anybody was saying warlcok had bad control we were just saying less control than a DFA.

At will entangle plus constant slow (which if the pass their save they are still slowed long enough for you to do it again) and solid fog with damage makes it really tough for anybody to move. Plus if you want to do the fear game DFAs are much better at that since they have less restrictions on it and have more powers to play with for that. Touch attacks are worse than never needing to roll at all to hit. A DFA could wear plate at level one if they wanted to since the penalty to attack rolls means nothing to them.

Better damage or better control. Crafting or better skills. Fiendish/fey or draconic these are the questions you want to ask.

Touch attacks are WAY better than Saves, because it is trivially easy to boost your touch attack roll vs opponent touch AC than it is to boost your DC vs their Reflex save (also enabling Evasion to completely negate you). And for those few times in which you might actually WANT to risk friendly fire by using AE, there's always Eldritch Cone.

Slow breath a) does no damage, therefore b) cannot be used with Entangling Exhalation.

Also, Warlocks can use wands without worrying about failing from around level 4. So they've also got toys for things like Grease, Glitterdust (to outline invisible opponents with, not for the blind), and more.

DFA can't fear worth crap, due to HD limitations on their fear effects. Warlock's fear effects are uncapped.

DFA is, however, easier to play. You have less choices available to you than the Warlock (and that's saying something), so you've pretty much got your combos pre-defined.

[MeeposFire]

Touch attacks are WAY better than Saves, because it is trivially easy to boost your touch attack roll vs opponent touch AC than it is to boost your DC vs their Reflex save (also enabling Evasion to completely negate you). And for those few times in which you might actually WANT to risk friendly fire by using AE, there's always Eldritch Cone.

Slow breath a) does no damage, therefore b) cannot be used with Entangling Exhalation.

Also, Warlocks can use wands without worrying about failing from around level 4. So they've also got toys for things like Grease, Glitterdust (to outline invisible opponents with, not for the blind), and more.

DFA can't fear worth crap, due to HD limitations on their fear effects. Warlock's fear effects are uncapped.

DFA is, however, easier to play. You have less choices available to you than the Warlock (and that's saying something), so you've pretty much got your combos pre-defined.

1) evasion is useless I use a breath that uses a fort save. If he has mettle I use reflex saves. If he has both that is bad but is certainly more rare than a creature with high touch AC. Furthermore since I still affect targets with stuff if they save I don't care if they save since I am not as much about damage and more about control which I still do on a save.

2) You don't use slow breath with entangling. You use the entangle on your damage breath of choice and then use slow breath on the alternate rounds. You can't use the same breath in consecutive rounds so this works out anyway.

3) Friendly fire is very safe with a DFA since your allies should all be immune to your breath via an invocation.

4) Warlcoks have an advantage at low levels in UMD (you know the levels where you have less stuff to use it on and the warlock needs that more). DFAs need to wait a few more levels but they are fine since they don't need to use that stuff as much as the warlocks do and eventually the roll becomes trivial in many of the things you are going to use it for.

5) DFA invocation frightful presence has no HD limitation, is area effect, only requires a swift action, and does not tie up a slot on his breath (like yours does on your blast). Terrifying roar has a HD restriction but since presence does not that means DFA wins in that regard.

Yea so DFA wins the control battle and warlocks win the damage battle. It is not a big deal. Warlocks can't do everything better sorry.