Razzle Dazzle Art. I hate it [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 05:27 AM

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 05:32 AM

I'm going to lurk the hell out of this thread. :smallamused:

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 05:50 AM

So you dislike some things. And if others praise them for reasons you disagree with, you dislike them more.

Is that about it? Was there a discussion you hoped might ensue on that? I'm not really seeing what there is to discuss.

(Incidentally, if you see something is well-liked and don't understand why, I suggest asking people who like it and listening to their answers. For example, for 2001, you ask "What about those boring docking scenes? Are they "Artsy"?" Well... yeah, they are. I don't intend to get in to a defense of 2001 here, but might it not be more useful to actually ask that question and pay attention to how people other than yourself, with opinions different from your own, answer it, rather than just posing it rhetorically already satisfied that the answer you expect to get is all you need to consider?)

Yora

2011-04-12, 05:52 AM

I agree with example 2 and 3. Example 1, I don't know.

I think there is a certain quality to Evangelion, but I don't think I would call that "deep".
No, deep certainly isn't what it is. What I like about it is how it does not follow the same paths that have been used million times before. It's refreshing to see people willing to make a story in which the heroes don't automatically win, or even a story in whichyou don't have any of the same old "stop the villain before he does something bad" stuff. Also some odd artistic choices that often work quite well if you're willing to go on that ride.
But deep meaning? No, I don't think Evangelion has anything meaningful to say except "you don't have to repeat the same old stories over and over".

Innis Cabal

2011-04-12, 05:55 AM

What exactly is a "Sell out"? The Beatles sold out to get famous and rich. Nirvana sold out. Most musician's "Sell out" so they can get on the radio and play music and make money. It's not a crime for people to want to make money or sacrifice their artistic integrity to do so.Lady Gaga being good or bad isn't really something everyone will agree with.

As for NGE, I myself don't like it based on the fact that it's message is fairly high-school level existential nonsense. But it's loved because when it came out, it was doing something no one else was in it's field or at least with the level of success

2001...meh, it was boring, but it was film making from a different time. Is it artistic? Ya, and the theme's of it are also from a different time. Despite you not finding it enjoyable it's been deemed worthy enough to be placed in the National Film Registry which is quite difficult to do. For it's time, the thing was a master piece not just of story but cinatograghy, special effects, sound and a myriad of other things. Today we find the idea of 2001 a bit dated and silly compared to the technology we have now. That's just how things are. That doesn't make it....what ever you want to call it. It has merit more now as a look at the past then a social piece on how we're living even though the case can be made that it still does in fact do that as well.

I would say that all these feelings (save for Gaga because she's modern) stems from you being born in a different time and place that either of the other two issues of the other two things you've listed cover. You can't sympathies with them the same way others might and thus lack the context which might cast them in a better light. You understand them at a base level where everyone from every walk of life can, you get the entertainment (or in your case the lack of such) and the message. But your upbringing and when your upbringing occurred don't sync with the piece in a way for it to endear itself to you.

And that's not a negative thing. It's just the way it is, no fault on any side at all. Older generations don't understand today's popular movies/music/etc and younger generations don't quite understand or appreciate things like Dr. Strangelove like the previous generations do due to plenty of factors.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 05:57 AM

Wait, Arsenal, I just read your OP for realz, and I just realized, you just lumped Lady Gaga (generally regarded as pop shlock) in with 2001 (generally regarded as a cinematic masterpiece, if confusing as hell) and NGE (generally regarded as pretentious shlock)

I suspect you know something we don't. :smallcool:

The_Snark

2011-04-12, 05:58 AM

You heard that song on the Muppet Show? Strange place to find it.

My two cents: I liked 2001. It was slow-paced, yes, and if every movie tried to do the same thing I'm sure I would get really sick of it. But it was an experiment in doing something strange and different, and it worked for me, at least. Judging by the critical reception, I'm not the only one, and I think it's unfair to say that we're all jumping on the bandwagon and claiming that it's deep. I just enjoyed watching it. The slow pacing helped to build and maintain the atmosphere for a lot of the movie, and while a few of the scenes did drag on, they generally had nice visuals and/or pleasant classical music. There's worse ways to spend twenty minutes.

It worked for some people. It didn't work for others. I think that's all you really need to say about it. You're allowed to dislike it, really you are; but please accord others the same respect and allow them to like it.

KBF

2011-04-12, 06:00 AM

I know that some people overwhelmingly like them on this forum but I just wanted to speak out against the common people and say my opinion.

I don't think whining about the whining in Evangelion or Lady Gaga's being weird for being weird constitute 'speaking out against the common people' seeing as they're the only opinions shared about them nowadays ???

Honestly, your opinions here mostly seem more common than the ones you are supposedly speaking out against.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 06:01 AM

I actually like Lady Gaga, though. Of the recent attempts, she's the closest to emulate Madonna's staying power, and might even carry it.

Yora

2011-04-12, 06:14 AM

Without making any judgements about the music, you'd still probably agree that her whole persona is nothing but one huge marketing plot.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 06:15 AM

Without making any judgements about the music, you'd still probably agree that her whole persona is nothing but one huge marketing plot.

I fail to see the problem with that.

You know what else is a huge marketing plot? Making your hamburgers taste better. True story.

Curse you, Golden Arches. :smallfurious:

It begins. Arsenal, you've won this round. Everyone in this thread, I believe it is too late for us now.

Innis Cabal

2011-04-12, 06:15 AM

She's admitted to it. I don't particularly see what's wrong with it.

Brother Oni

2011-04-12, 06:26 AM

At least she's honest about it. That's more than could be said for many artists.

Innis Cabal

2011-04-12, 06:30 AM

They're allowed to be dishonest about it honestly. Can't fault people for making a buck any way they can. Honesty or dishonesty in the end doesn't mean a whole lot when it just comes down to a created image that's made to get some simple cash. They offer their lives or what they want to show as their lives for profit and for entertainment. They're allowed to do it any way they want. I've seen people say it's their choice to do so and that they have to live with the consequence's. Well, they're living with it, by making up a facade. Who are we to demand they live with the consequences then fault them when they don't do it the way we want them to?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 06:31 AM

At least she's honest about it. That's more than could be said for many artists.

Who cares how they do it, as long as it's entertaining? :smallamused:

Elaro

2011-04-12, 06:44 AM

Eh, Neon Genesis Evangelion is a naturalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(literature)) Super Mecha show. It tries to be deep, but without proper study and explanation, it just comes off as pretentious nonsense. So I'd disagree about NGE being "razzle-dazzle". It wasn't, as you say, made with "splatter", nor was it made in a commercial interest; the original financial backers actually thought it was going to fail.

À propos, http://www.powso.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/DSC02434-1024x346.jpg

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 06:58 AM

Well this was unexpected. Just in other forums people called me "gay lol" foreven daring to dislike the above. Shows how good a forum this is.

To clarify:

I respect NGE for trying something new. I just do not like it.

It's allright for an artist to sell out. Just do not call them "deep".

I guess my problems came from those that called me stupid and uneducated for not liking the above

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 07:00 AM

I respect NGE for trying something new. I just do not like it.

To clarify similarly: most people don't like NGE either.

Yora

2011-04-12, 07:08 AM

At the possibility of being fanboyish, but on what do you base that observation?

When you go by opinions voiced on the internet, everybody hates Starcraft 2 and World of Warcraft.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 07:11 AM

Quite simply a logical statement. Most people don't watch anime. Therefore most people don't like NGE by default.

Of people who watch anime, there is a vast proliferation of genre divisions within the medium. Mecha shows are one of those genre divisions.

Within the demographic that enjoys Mecha in addition to whatever else it enjoys, there are those who do not like NGE either.

Therefore most people don't like NGE.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 07:14 AM

At the possibility of being fanboyish, but on what do you base that observation?

Internet reviews and the like.

This might be rarer than finding a pot of magic gold but i watched NGE without hype.. I thought it was some obscure anime. It was suggested by a friend and I didn't do any research on it.

Can somebody tell me what NGE symbolizes?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 07:16 AM

Can somebody tell me what NGE symbolizes?

NGE doesn't symbolize anything.

Point out specific symbols within NGE and we'll be able to help you out, little buddy. :smallwink:

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 07:19 AM

NGE doesn't symbolize anything.

Point out specific symbols within NGE and we'll be able to help you out, little buddy. :smallwink:

Like what is the point? What is the whole story trying to say?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 07:22 AM

Like what is the point? What is the whole story trying to say?

Which version?

The first version was meant to be a deconstruction of the traditional shonen Super Robot show. Underage, unpopular, protagonist... who is just as incompetent and unlikable as you would expect! Mysterious bonds with your Super Robot... that are due to the fact that your robot is in fact a lobotomized alien being! Tsundere love interest... who is really a pretty ****ty person, and not nice deep down!

The message of NGE.1 was that life sucks, you, the viewer, suck for your escapism, the world sucks, and that we will all die unloved and alone. It is very happy.

@V No problem buddy.

KBF

2011-04-12, 07:24 AM

Some of those are actually pretty heavy spoilers, mind tagging that for some of us?

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 07:35 AM

To clarify:

I respect NGE for trying something new. I just do not like it.

It's allright for an artist to sell out. Just do not call them "deep".

I don't understand why you claim these two have to be opposite. Sure, they are somewhat negatively correlated when you look at the average of pop culture, but it's not something impossible.

Also, I don't get your beef against Lady Gaga. You claim her shtick lose part of its value because it's aimed at making money randomly... But maybe you aren't looking at it the right way. Maybe she was deliberately going for what you denounce?

She can sing a lot better than she does in her video, because... well, because you don't need to sing that well to be a fantastic pop culture. Or to be that beautiful. She broke stereotypes by.. breaking everything else.

Isn't that interesting? I don't like the personnality, but I can admire the flair behind her persona.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 07:36 AM

You claim her schlick lose part of its value because it's aimed at making money randomly... But maybe you aren't looking at it the right way.

Oh god dude, ahaha, this is the most unfortunate typo. You should probably like fix that.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 07:44 AM

Oh god dude, ahaha, this is the most unfortunate typo. You should probably like fix that.

Oops.. what's the right spelling?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 07:47 AM

Oops.. what's the right spelling?

Shtick. Your original post appears to suggest that Lady Gaga's habit of onanism has some kind of monetary value attached.:smallcool:

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 07:55 AM

Shtick. Your original post appears to suggest that Lady Gaga's habit of onanism has some kind of monetary value attached.:smallcool:

I am merely 6 months before my time, that's all! :smallwink:

Yora

2011-04-12, 08:08 AM

Therefore most people don't like NGE.
Therefore, everything is not liked by most people.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 08:10 AM

Therefore, everything is not liked by most people.

Yep. That's simply logical. Probably only things like food (in general), water (non-toxic) and air are liked by most people.

Obrysii

2011-04-12, 08:17 AM

Yep. That's simply logical. Probably only things like food (in general), water (non-toxic) and air are liked by most people.

No offense intended, but that's a terrible way of arguing your point. It is, most likely, a logical fallacy, too, though I do not know the name of that particular one.

It's a dishonest argument. When you argue that someone dislikes something, it is under the implication that said person has experienced that something.

Dislike via ignorance isn't a good argument.

Avilan the Grey

2011-04-12, 08:19 AM

Personally my biggest beef is with the concept of "selling out". It might be because I grew up primarily during the 80ies (I was 7 when it started and 17 when it ended). I do not find artists (of any kind, be they musicians or sculptors or painters or whatever) that make money of their art as sellouts. And that goes double for artists that are up front about it. Lady Gaga is only Madonna taken Up To 11 after all.

There are instances where someone has truly "sold out", meaning abandoned what they believe in to make money. I can't really name any names right now though.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 08:20 AM

No offense intended, but that's a terrible way of arguing your point. It is, most likely, a logical fallacy, too, though I do not know the name of that particular one.

It's a dishonest argument. When you argue that someone dislikes something, it is under the implication that said person has experienced that something.

Dislike via ignorance isn't a good argument.

Now now, my original statement suggested nothing about dislike. It merely stated a lack of like.

This includes everyone who is neutral. :smallwink:

Of course it's a logical fallacy. It's not one of the latin-named ones. I'll be damned, it's been years since En12, teaching or otherwise.

Personally my biggest beef is with the concept of "selling out". It might be because I grew up primarily during the 80ies (I was 7 when it started and 17 when it ended). I do not find artists (of any kind, be they musicians or sculptors or painters or whatever) that make money of their art as sellouts. And that goes double for artists that are up front about it. Lady Gaga is only Madonna taken Up To 11 after all.

There are instances where someone has truly "sold out", meaning abandoned what they believe in to make money. I can't really name any names right now though.

Typically, claims of "sellout" come from angry, entitled fans who can't take change.

A true sellout, though, would be a band like System of a Down endorsing the US Government after being given a ton of money - which aligns with the characteristics of selling out that you outlined in your post.

Seraph

2011-04-12, 08:20 AM

only my opinion):

Neon Genisis Evangelion:
Look, there is the standard of the main characters being boring because there is no arc in thier character growth, and its like watching a guy scream about his life while refusing to try to make it better (My opinion). But I dont get why its so beloved. Where is the "deepness"?

that's the point. the characters do have character arcs; only instead of them growing as people and becoming better human beings, they just get worse. that was the whole idea of NGE; that the situation of a typical Super Robot show is not some life-affirming experience that betters the protagonist, its a ****ty and unpleasant one that will ruin your life.

Lady Gaga:
Say what you want about her music (I dislike it because It feels very synthetic to me) but I feel like she is a sell out. A corporate genius that makes her stage personality in order to attract attention. It feels like she screams "IM ORIGINAL" in the same way cheese whip says its full of personality. She just dresses like crazy in order for people to look at her. Her dressing is random, and just there to get peoples attention, negative OR positive. Sh has no style, no ongoing theme. Just random stuff.

I've felt for a long time that Gaga is deliberately constructing her persona as a gigantic middle finger aimed at the music industry, and has found a way to get paid by doing so.

What, you didn't think she named herself after a song (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Ga_Ga) critical of the modern music industry by accident, did you?

Avilan the Grey

2011-04-12, 09:01 AM

Typically, claims of "sellout" come from angry, entitled fans who can't take change.

...And the joke (which too often is true) is the rabid fan that dumps the band as soon as their first CD has been released as they now are sellouts, after bugging all his friends with how great they are for several years :smallbiggrin: I know some people like that, actually.

Yora

2011-04-12, 09:06 AM

I've felt for a long time that Gaga is deliberately constructing her persona as a gigantic middle finger aimed at the music industry, and has found a way to get paid by doing so.

However, I don't think the industry minds at all. It gets money into their accounts. They have taken the concept of selling out to the logical conclusion. If you can make money by helping others to humilate you, do it. :smallbiggrin:

Fjolnir

2011-04-12, 09:26 AM

The major plan for MOST bands is:
1: make songs and grind through the local scene in an effort to get signed
2: record an album on a major label
3: Sell out
4: PROFIT!!!!!!!

Though there is ONE band who turned selling out into an art form (Beyond their actual musical talent, imo) and that is KISS. I don't think they would be relevant if they weren't willing to prostitute themselves and their likenesses on everything from candy to coffins...

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 09:28 AM

Though there is ONE band who turned selling out into an art form (Beyond their actual musical talent, imo) and that is KISS. I don't think they would be relevant if they weren't willing to prostitute themselves and their likenesses on everything from candy to coffins...

KISS never sold out.

Their entire principle was based on making money, so they never betrayed their principles for money (Because that would be impossible).

They are the Garfield of Metal.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 09:33 AM

KISS never sold out.

Their entire principle was based on making money, so they never betrayed their principles for money (Because that would be impossible).

They are the Garfield of Metal.

Actually, they could sell out, if they stopped behaving with their "moneymaking" attitude in order to get into the Rock'n Roll Hall of Fame.

That would be KISS's equivalent of "selling out", methink.

Fjolnir

2011-04-12, 09:51 AM

My favorite description of KISS is still "while other bands were out there trying to be The Beatles, KISS was out there trying to be Coca~Cola"

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 10:55 AM

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 10:58 AM

Well to clarify what I think selling out is. Its changing your identity or talent for money.

Did anybody else see what Ga Ga used to sing on the piano? Or is that somebody else?

Well anyway, its OK to sell products, but KISS suddenly changing their tone to "Family friendly" is selling out.

Selling out: it's both a relative term and an immaterial one!

Who cares, they're making money. Let 'em do so however they want; if it's entertaining then I'll buy it.

Yora

2011-04-12, 11:04 AM

Selling out: "My memories of them are better than they seem to be now"

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 11:06 AM

Neon Genisis Evangelion:
Look, there is the standard of the main characters being boring because there is no arc in thier character growth, and its like watching a guy scream about his life while refusing to try to make it better (My opinion). But I dont get why its so beloved. Where is the "deepness"?

Actually, Shinji was growing as person. But Anno and the writers kept throwing the Deus Angst Machina at him. The Christian symbolism means nothing, it was only there to screw with the Japanese viewers. Western viewers were screwed with in other ways. NGE was a deconstruction about Super Robots or Real Robots. Screw it, I don't care. Teh Rei!!!!!! is my goddess! Yes I missed that point intentionally.

2001:
I felt like Kubrik intentionally just made stuff confusing (I get the subtext), without getting what the hell he was doing anyway just to get a response. I also hate that people cant just say "The movie is boring, but it raises some good questions". It has to be "NEW, COOL" in every way. What about those boring docking scenes? Are they "Artsy"? I liked the shinning because I felt it had context, and used the images to tell a story.

I liked it for being relatively hard on the Sci-Fi... until it was Star Baby time. That was just there to mess with the viewer. That's fine.

Lady Gaga:
Say what you want about her music (I dislike it because It feels very synthetic to me) but I feel like she is a sell out. A corporate genius that makes her stage personality in order to attract attention. It feels like she screams "IM ORIGINAL" in the same way cheese whip says its full of personality. She just dresses like crazy in order for people to look at her. Her dressing is random, and just there to get peoples attention, negative OR positive. Sh has no style, no ongoing theme. Just random stuff.

Now again. This is just my opinion.

She's artsy? :smalleek:

That totally upsets my comfortable world view that Lady Gaga is a troll! Now you're going to tell me that the Sun is evil! But hey, everybody puts things together differently in their minds. Opinions only matter as much as the stock you put in them and all that jazz.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 11:07 AM

Selling out: "My memories of them are better than they seem to be now"

Ahaha, yes. I love you, nostalgia, for narrowing people's vision immensely.

I swear to god, the next time I hear someone say that cartoons in the 80's - 90's were so much better, I'm going to punch them in the ****.

That totally upsets my comfortable world view that Lady Gaga is a troll! Now you're going to tell me that the Sun is evil!

All hail the burning hate?

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 11:08 AM

Ahaha, yes. I love you, nostalgia, for narrowing people's vision immensely.

I swear to god, the next time I hear someone say that cartoons in the 80's - 90's were so much better, I'm going to punch them in the ****.

But they were... not. Some cartoons hold up well... others, don't. Especially the dubbing in Thundercats. :smallannoyed:

All hail the burning hate?

Good name for a rock band. Has that been taken yet?... yeah it's been taken. (http://www.myspace.com/burning666hate)

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 11:10 AM

You remember dinosaucers? There's camp bad, and then there's dinosaucers bad. I will bull rush the guy who thought that up off a goddamn cliff.

Yora

2011-04-12, 11:11 AM

I recently watched the first few episodes of Conan. The theme song is still epic, but if you compare it with for example Avatar, that old cartoon is a really big pile of crap. It's just goofy without any plot or structure. It certainly wasn't as good as I remembered it.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 11:12 AM

Good name for a rock band. Has that been taken yet?... yeah it's been taken. (http://www.myspace.com/burning666hate)

It's also the true name of the sun god Pelor.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 11:16 AM

It's also the true name of the sun god Pelor.

That's just a crackpot theory!

Unless you're implying that D&D is also Razzle Dazzle Art...

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 11:21 AM

But there's textual evidence textual evidence (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate)!

:redcloak: Anyway it's pretty clear a god of the sun, which causes blindness and skin cancer, is not a good god.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 11:24 AM

Actually, Shinji was growing as person. But Anno and the writers kept throwing the Deus Angst Machina at him. The Christian symbolism means nothing, it was only there to screw with the Japanese viewers. Western viewers were screwed with in other ways. NGE was a deconstruction about Super Robots or Real Robots. Screw it, I don't care. Teh Rei!!!!!! is my goddess! Yes I missed that point intentionally.

The next question is, Why is this entertaining?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 11:30 AM

The next question is, Why is this entertaining?

Counterpoint: why is it not entertaining? :smallamused:

Mr.Bookworm

2011-04-12, 11:31 AM

The next question is, Why is this entertaining?

Maybe you enjoy something besides big monsters hitting each other in the face?

I mean, Evangelion isn't very deep on a symbolism level and someone else has already said, Anno flat-out admitted they threw in all of the Christian imagery because it looked cool. But on a psychological level, Evangelion is very interesting, at least to me.

Reverent-One

2011-04-12, 11:38 AM

I swear to god, the next time I hear someone say that cartoons in the 80's - 90's were so much better, I'm going to punch them in the ****.

Dude, the 90s had the Batman, Spiderman, and X-men animated series, as well as most of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disney_Afternoon), and I'm probably missing some other quality stuff. The 90s was awesome for cartoons.

You remember dinosaucers? There's camp bad, and then there's dinosaucers bad. I will bull rush the guy who thought that up off a goddamn cliff.

...I don't believe it, someone else remembers Dinosaucers.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 11:41 AM

Dude, the 90s had the Batman, Spiderman, and X-men animated series, as well as most of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disney_Afternoon), and I'm probably missing some other quality stuff. The 90s was awesome for cartoons

The 90's had amazing cartoons like BTAS and Gargoyles.

However it also had a large volume of tremendous crap.

The thing is, we tend to remember only the good (thank god) thus making the 90s appear better.

Of course, I think we can safely claim that no one will ever look nostalgically back on the 90's comic industry. Please, Pelor, this I beg of you.

Reverent-One

2011-04-12, 11:47 AM

The 90's had amazing cartoons like BTAS and Gargoyles.

However it also had a large volume of tremendous crap.

The thing is, we tend to remember only the good (thank god) thus making the 90s appear better.

That's not my point, my point is that regardless of how much crap there was, there still was a higher than usual amount of awesome-ness.

Fjolnir

2011-04-12, 11:53 AM

KISS never sold out.

Their entire principle was based on making money, so they never betrayed their principles for money (Because that would be impossible).

They are the Garfield of Metal.

I honestly think that if there's a way to sell out their money making principles for more money, KISS would find it.

Yora

2011-04-12, 11:56 AM

The next question is, Why is this entertaining?
Some peoples idea about having a good movie night with friends includes watching holocaust movies or movies about junkies painfully dying over 90 minutes. I have no idea why anyone would do that for non-educational reasons.

What's entertaining about Evangelion? I don't really know. Mood and curiosity mostly, I'd guess. People like watching alien robots blowing up cities. So why not watch crazy people leading the world down into chaos?

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 12:01 PM

The 90's had amazing cartoons like BTAS and Gargoyles.

However it also had a large volume of tremendous crap.

The thing is, we tend to remember only the good (thank god) thus making the 90s appear better.

Of course, I think we can safely claim that no one will ever look nostalgically back on the 90's comic industry. Please, Pelor, this I beg of you.

Every single time period or media had a few gems and large volume of tremendous crap, don't kid yourself thinking the 90s are any different.

We will be nostalgic of the good ol' cartoons of the 90s. Aladin and The Lion King are still 2 of the top animated movies you can think of for children.

vp21ct

2011-04-12, 12:01 PM

Regarding points 1 and 2: I think you're seeing a fundamental problem with most art of that medium. Movies and shows are made by a bunch of people working together, and that tends to dilute the 'artistry' of things. Now, I will say that I do consider both of them to be art. For starters, I read 2001 before I watched it. It was fantastic both times through, but the movie was 10 times better than the book. In the book, we had a narrative that sort of removed some of the mystery of what was happening. In the movie, you get the full on mystery. It might have seemed booring to other people but I enjoyed it greatly, and consider it to be one of the best examples of modern art in the film medium.

Similarly, NGE is quite simply Gainax's masterpiece. TTGL may be more popular as a show, and they may wind up with hundreds of little works that are all around better quality, but that's not the point of art, at least, not the point of NGE. NGE is a deconstruction of the standard tropes associated with it's genre. Essentially, it's an explorative work of art (Much how 2001 is as well). It looks at old tropes, dissects them, and says "How can this be different?" And then turns them on their head. That's a difficult, and a very artistic thing to do, from a writing standpoint.

Compare NGE or 2001 to a show like Cowboy Bebop. I consider Cowboy Bebop to be one of the greatest, most artistic shows ever concieved. But what is it's premise, it's purpose? Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that the show was designed to feature a different kind of music with each episode, and to have the general mood of that music play into the mood of the episode. That there was a plot at all is a phenomenal feet.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 12:05 PM

Every single time period or media had a few gems and large volume of tremendous crap, don't kid yourself thinking the 90s are any different.

I'm not kidding myself, buddy, everyone else is. Crap is unfortunately pretty much a standard feature.

(I was the one railing against nostalgia earlier in the thread, man.)

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 12:06 PM

I'm not kidding myself, buddy, everyone else is. Crap is unfortunately pretty much a standard feature.

(I was the one railing against nostalgia earlier in the thread, man.)

I know, but you also claimed hoping that no one will be nostalgic of the 90's animated comic industry, which I think is a bollock opinion.

vp21ct

2011-04-12, 12:07 PM

Every single time period or media had a few gems and large volume of tremendous crap, don't kid yourself thinking the 90s are any different.

We will be nostalgic of the good ol' cartoons of the 90s. Aladin and The Lion King are still 2 of the top animated movies you can think of for children.

I would say that the 90s had much higher overal quality than before or after (particularly later in the decade). Because, really. Really really there was a constant flow of quality out of such works as the DCAU, Gendi Tartakovski, Nickalodeon. There just wasn't an end to the shows that could hold the attention of both adults and children (And that weren't secretly terrifying)

Yes, there was some utter **** to come out of that era, but most of it actually was good.

And it's not like it stopped right at the end of the 90s, either. Many fine works extened well into the following decade and were of high quality themselves. A:TLA probably ranks up in the top 10 greatest animated masterpieces of all time, if simply for production quality alone.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 12:08 PM

Maybe you enjoy something besides big monsters hitting each other in the face?

I mean, Evangelion isn't very deep on a symbolism level and someone else has already said, Anno flat-out admitted they threw in all of the Christian imagery because it looked cool. But on a psychological level, Evangelion is very interesting, at least to me.

Your right. I guess it could be entertaining for some. But I dislike it.
I guess its the super reverse version

A Boring Invincible Hero/ A Boring Looser Hero
A Dumb as Nails simple plot/ A Super confusing crazy plot.

I guess its boring on a Psychological level for me because I went through a almost identical phase......2 years before he did. It was like watching my ramblings knowing that they are all BS (Because life gets better....JUST GET OFF YOUR ASS AND DO ****!). We don't actually KNOW who he is. The only still of the past we see of him is his father leaving. While scarring at an older age, at such a young age its not very effecting. I would have liked to see what brought him to such a low.

But yeah. The hero bored me because he just gave up. Watching somebody who gave up isnt fun for me. And as the plot got more and more disjointed I got more and more bored. I would even liked to see him defeated, I like original plots.

Why are you first asking about its artistic merit, and then when answered on those terms, asking about its entertainment value? Which do you actually have a problem with? Is this about discussing Evangelion (and others) as art, or trying to talk you in to liking it?

Look I reflected a little and realized that I have no right to tell you what you should like. I realized that it was just boring FOR ME. Im sorry. I just tend to not notice when writing that Im not saying "This is my opinion" but "Your opinion is stupid".
Cookie truce?

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 12:08 PM

The next question is, Why is this entertaining?
Why are you first asking about its artistic merit, and then when answered on those terms, asking about its entertainment value? Which do you actually have a problem with? Is this about discussing Evangelion (and others) as art, or trying to talk you in to liking it?

Yora

2011-04-12, 12:10 PM

Because it's the weekly "Arsenal doesn't like ... and wants everyone to know about it" thread.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 12:11 PM

Because it's the weekly "Arsenal doesn't like ... and wants everyone to know about it" thread.

Hey, make snips about it if you want, but you can't say he doesn't provoke interesting conversations.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 12:11 PM

I know, but you also claimed hoping that no one will be nostalgic of the 90's animated comic industry, which I think is a bollock opinion.

... animated comic industry?

No, I was hoping no one would be nostalgic towards the Iron Age, the Dark Age. You know, the actual objectively most hilarious period in comics history. The defining characteristics of that era are something we can do without.

(specifically, pouches)

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 12:12 PM

... animated comic industry?

No, I was hoping no one would be nostalgic towards the Iron Age, the Dark Age. You know, the actual objectively most hilarious period in comics history. The defining characteristics of that era are something we can do without.

(specifically, pouches)

Oh, I thought you were talking about the animated comic. Sorry, by bad. Going to cry in a corner now...

(Weren't there any memorable 90s comic issue?)

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 12:13 PM

Hey, make snips about it if you want, but you can't say he doesn't provoke interesting conversations.

Yeah, Arsenal's a total bro and I like his threads. Plus he has interesting terminology. I'd never have described 2001, NGE, and Lady Gaga "Razzle-Dazzle", collectively.

Oh, I thought you were talking about the animated comic. Sorry, by bad. Going to cry in a corner now...

(Weren't there any memorable 90s comic issue?)

The greatest comic to ever come out of the Dark Age was Kingdom Come - and you know why it was the greatest?

It looked the Dark Age in the eye, and said **** you. I don't like the values you represent, I don't like the tone, and I don't like the implications of your themes. Give me back wonder. Give me back idealism. Give me a hero you wouldn't be ashamed to call a hero. Give me Spider-Man, not the Punisher. Give me Superman, not Azrael. Bring back the hero in superhero.

Kingdom Come snapped the Dark Age over one knee and discarded it. Elements of the Dark Age remain, but the wonder and idealism, in part, has mostly flooded back.

Moff Chumley

2011-04-12, 12:13 PM

My thoughts on Gaga: she's shiny. Visually, musically, figuratively, in every way possible, she's shiny. People like shiny; some people accept this, other people need to invent excuses for liking the shiny. I have no problems with either camp, but I wish the second one would admit that they're just in it for the shiny...

Because it's the weekly "Arsenal doesn't like ... and wants everyone to know about it" thread.

So? These threads are fun. :smallsmile:

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 12:13 PM

Because it's the weekly "Arsenal doesn't like ... and wants everyone to know about it" thread.

Well excuse me for not having any friends. I wouldn't subject you to my ramblings if I had people to talk to that DIDN'T think that Epic movie was pure genius.

Im just saying years worth of repressed thought with myself.....It drives one insane.

Im sorry.

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 12:24 PM

Well excuse me for not having any friends. I wouldn't subject you to my ramblings if I had people to talk to that DIDN'T think that Epic movie was pure genius.
Here's the thing: fora are generally for discussion. This thread didn't ask any questions or invite any discussion on its points, it just said "hey, I don't like <some stuff>". If you feel you don't have friends to talk to, maybe you could try inviting others to share their thoughts with you, and thus make friends. Or perhaps if you want an outlet for your thoughts without necessarily wanting a discussion on them, you could start a blog.

Or if you do want discussion, then perhaps you could work on your presentation.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 12:24 PM

The greatest comic to ever come out of the Dark Age was Kingdom Come - and you know why it was the greatest?

It looked the Dark Age in the eye, and said **** you. I don't like the values you represent, I don't like the tone, and I don't like the implications of your themes. Give me back wonder. Give me back idealism. Give me a hero you wouldn't be ashamed to call a hero. Give me Spider-Man, not the Punisher. Give me Superman, not Azrael. Bring back the hero in superhero.

Kingdom Come snapped the Dark Age over one knee and discarded it. Elements of the Dark Age remain, but the wonder and idealism, in part, has mostly flooded back.

Though on the other side of the coin... the Silver Age heroes weren't exactly right either(building a prison without the express consent of the nation you're doing it on for starters...). But it worked out in the end, mostly.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 12:27 PM

Though on the other side of the coin... the Silver Age heroes weren't exactly right either(building a prison without the express consent of the nation you're doing it on for starters...). But it worked out in the end, mostly.

Yeah, KC had one of my favorite versions of Supes - the fallible one who still feels the pressure to do good nonetheless. Kingdom Come exemplified what the Modern Age became - a weird fusion of the good elements of the Age of Escalation and Age of Innocence.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 12:28 PM

Or if you do want discussion, then perhaps you could work on your presentation.

But I apologized! I said that I do not mean to write "Your opinion is stupid" but "Here is my opinion". Im trying to change my style. And I do write "Love this" threads but they disappear quickly.

Im just that guy at the party that makes those out of place comments that offend everybody when I dont intend to....I guess its like that in my life as well.

Cookie Truce:smallsmile:?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 12:34 PM

See? Told you Arsenal was a total bro.

kyoryu

2011-04-12, 12:39 PM

I think the original poster was referring to things that I usually call "snergles." These are things that artists do, putting in random stuff or symbolism, etc. without explaining it, in order to appear deep without actually going through the effort of being intelligent enough to be deep.

Smart people will typically not want to admit that they don't "get it", and so will go along with it. Many people will frantically search for meaning, hoping to find it, and being unwilling to admit that there is none.

In my opinion, it's a cheap, lousy trick.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 12:40 PM

Well, NGE is rife with it, and that's why I love it so. I'm a big fan of intellectual chicanery.

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 12:45 PM

But I apologized! I said that I do not mean to write "Your opinion is stupid" but "Here is my opinion". Im trying to change my style. And I do write "Love this" threads but they disappear quickly.

Im just that guy at the party that makes those out of place comments that offend everybody when I dont intend to....I guess its like that in my life as well.
I'm not looking for an apology. I'm not offended. That's not the issue. I'm simply saying that if you want discussion, you should provide a seed for it, and if you don't want discussion, starting a thread may not be a very effective way to scratch whatever your itch is.

I'm also suggesting that if you feel bad about not having friends, you should maybe try not to lead off with complaining about things you hate, as this is not a strategy likely to incline people to befriend you.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 12:56 PM

Yeah, KC had one of my favorite versions of Supes - the fallible one who still feels the pressure to do good nonetheless. Kingdom Come exemplified what the Modern Age became - a weird fusion of the good elements of the Age of Escalation and Age of Innocence.

Of course, that still leaves the issue of why can't criminals like the Joker be dealt with for good. The obvious answer is that it's more profitable for the comics companies to keep their famous villains alive, they have star power! Therefore, there will never be a true happy ending as long as you keep reading.

To get a happy ending, you must stop reading comics. I know I did I got mine for Spider-Man after I stopped just before One More Day. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'd just like to toss out that symbolism should be used to attract attention to the theme of the work. Symbolism that does not do that is pretty much shiny chrome on a car.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 12:57 PM

I'm not looking for an apology. I'm not offended. That's not the issue. I'm simply saying that if you want discussion, you should provide a seed for it, and if you don't want discussion, starting a thread may not be a very effective way to scratch whatever your itch is.

I said I wanted discusion. I like to hear what other people have to say. I want to talk to somebody OTHER than myself.

I just end up writing things poorly. I end up having my comments say "I hate this" instead of "Well, I hate this but I want to find out why people like it and then discuss its effect on the genre"

I'm also suggesting that if you feel bad about not having friends, you should maybe try not to lead off with complaining about things you hate, as this is not a strategy likely to incline people to befriend you.

I don't. I just don't have very much in common with my classmates. And I dont fit in outside my class either because im in touch with allot of western ideas and stuff, and kids in Ukraine are more of a physical, tough (Smoke, buy booze at the age of 14) type folks.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 12:58 PM

Well, I guess you could say there'll never be a happy ending, yeah... but there'll never be a bad one, either. There'll be ups and downs, and sometimes those downs can be really down, but things always even out eventually. It's a pretty potent metacommentary, come to think of it.

EDIT: Arsenalbro, I don't see any reason why the other youths being toughs should be a barrier to your being friends with them. A lot of my friends are athletes and toughs, but I'm a flaming effeminate gay dude.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 01:04 PM

Arsenalbro, I don't see any reason why the other youths being toughs should be a barrier to your being friends with them. A lot of my friends are athletes and toughs, but I'm a flaming effeminate gay dude.

Because their cruel. I just cannot be friends with those that torture animals (Well truthfully its jut one of the guys). In addition I just don't have much to talk to with them. I'm not very athletic, I dont watch sports, so It just kinda ends up awkward.

"Hey you watched the game?"
"No....."
"Well what did you watch?"
"2001..."
"What the **** is that?"
"Nothing..."

But lets get back on topic. What do you consider selling out?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 01:06 PM

Because their cruel. I just cannot be friends with those that torture animals (Well truthfully its jut one of the guys). In addition I just don't have much to talk to with them. I'm not very athletic, I dont watch sports, so It just kinda ends up awkward.

"Hey you watched the game?"
"No....."
"Well what did you watch?"
"2001..."
"What the **** is that?"
"Nothing..."

But lets get back on topic. What do you consider selling out?

I don't consider anything selling out no more, man. I learned years ago that inherent artistic value is a myth.

kyoryu

2011-04-12, 01:07 PM

But lets get back on topic. What do you consider selling out?

I consider it a meaningless term that almost universally translates to "they changed in a way I don't like, they should do stuff like they used to, so that I'll buy more of it."

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 01:13 PM

I consider it a meaningless term that almost universally translates to "they changed in a way I don't like, they should do stuff like they used to, so that I'll buy more of it."

Hm. Never thought of it like that. Maybe I was too hard on Ben ten alien force. I guess it just wasn't for me.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 01:14 PM

Because their cruel. I just cannot be friends with those that torture animals (Well truthfully its jut one of the guys). In addition I just don't have much to talk to with them. I'm not very athletic, I dont watch sports, so It just kinda ends up awkward.

"Hey you watched the game?"
"No....."
"Well what did you watch?"
"2001..."
"What the **** is that?"
"Nothing..."

Aww... flashbacks of my own highschool years... :smallbiggrin:

Just remember one thing: you know what they tell you "you are living the best years of your life"? It's bullcrap. Trust me, you're gonna have a lot, lot, lot, lot more fun in the late teens and the 20s than you ever had in underage school.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 01:15 PM

I consider all day every day the best years of my life. Pretty much any year I'm not being hit by a car is a good year

Moff Chumley

2011-04-12, 01:16 PM

I dunno, though. I wouldn't say "selling out" is a complete myth: it's what happens when the artists aren't happy with what they're making, and are doing it solely for the money. Note that the artist isn't, generally, at fault here, but the label or producer. Listen to In Utero next to Nevermind, by Nirvana. Nevermind is produced like a pop album, and the band loathed it. By that standard, Nirvana "sold out". Genesis sold out, also: with the exception of Phil Collins, none of the other members were terribly pleased with the music they made after Collins took over, but it was vastly more commercially successful than what they were doing previously.

Dvandemon

2011-04-12, 01:18 PM

The 90's had amazing cartoons like BTAS and Gargoyles.

However it also had a large volume of tremendous crap.

The thing is, we tend to remember only the good (thank god) thus making the 90s appear better.

Of course, I think we can safely claim that no one will ever look nostalgically back on the 90's comic industry. Please, Pelor, this I beg of you.

This is something that should always be remembered, things are never as good as you saw them. People in high school, who weren't the totally bitter loser without reminders into adulthood, can imagine all their highlights as a sign tha high school was an amazing experience (just my two cents).

I'll...go back to lurking now

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 01:25 PM

Maybe so much Good things happened that the thing before that was good, isnt that good in comparison?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 01:28 PM

Not particularly. We call it the nostalgia filter. It's like beer goggles, except it applies only to the past.

druid91

2011-04-12, 01:36 PM

The only thing I agree with in his post is the idea that those who do something insane and then call you simpleminded for not understanding should be mocked.

there is no such thing as deep art, only deep interpretations. IMO.

:smallbiggrin: could be considered a deep piece of art with enough of an explanation and no correction from the creator.

Dvandemon

2011-04-12, 01:47 PM

Maybe so much Good things happened that the thing before that was good, isnt that good in comparison?

Only in comparison, if you try to actually argue that by itself it's good, then you're making a logical fallacy. It's like the criticisms about remakes and sequels, they do have merit but a lot of it is nostalgia filtering.

Mewtarthio

2011-04-12, 01:53 PM

...I don't believe it, someone else remembers Dinosaucers.

I vaguely remember something with anime-style cartoon kids next to CGI dinosaurs. The CGI dinosaurs fought CGI raptors over something involving the life force of the earth. Was that it?

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 02:06 PM

I vaguely remember something with anime-style cartoon kids next to CGI dinosaurs. The CGI dinosaurs fought CGI raptors over something involving the life force of the earth. Was that it?

I also seem to remember one of the teen side kicks being turned into a cave man, and then there was another episode where they beat alien space cats with catnip...

Reverent-One

2011-04-12, 02:12 PM

I vaguely remember something with anime-style cartoon kids next to CGI dinosaurs. The CGI dinosaurs fought CGI raptors over something involving the life force of the earth. Was that it?

No, it was a cartoon from the late 80s, before the use of CGI. Wiki page with a couple images here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaucers)

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 02:14 PM

Can't beat Cadillac & Dinosaurs :smallwink:

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 02:16 PM

The show's first season (episodes 1 to 21) can be purchased individually by episode or in its entirety from online retailer Amazon.com.[1]

WHY.

He is the nephew of the Dinosorceror and Dinosorceress (rulers of Reptilon). His address on Reptilon is "where Palmer Avenue meets Emerson and Lake".

God, I hate this show even more now.

Partly because I really, really want to crib the name "Dinosorceror".

Mystic Muse

2011-04-12, 02:16 PM

This is something that should always be remembered, things are almost never as good as you saw them. People in high school, who weren't the totally bitter loser without reminders into adulthood, can imagine all their highlights as a sign tha high school was an amazing experience (just my two cents).

I'll...go back to lurking now

Fixed it. I've rewatched a few things and they're exactly as good as I remember. Others were not, but there are some things that were.

kyoryu

2011-04-12, 02:55 PM

"Hey you watched the game?"
"No....."
"Well what did you watch?"
"2001..."
"What the **** is that?"
"Nothing..."

... and what you've got is two people/groups who will not compromise and be open-minded enough to try something that they haven't already decided that they like.

Seriously, sports aren't bad. They can even be fun to play. I'm biased, but hockey is awesome, and I've known quite a number of nerd/geek types that play or watch it. It's a fast, smart game. Unfortunately, with sports a lot of the "smart" stuff isn't apparent until you know the sport well enough to "get" it. Just like a lot of "meta" stuff in shows or whatever isn't entertaining until you know the genre well enough to get what's being poked at.

Next time you have a conversation like that, why not say, "Hey, you know, I've never watched much football/whatever, and don't know it that well. Mind if I watch a game with you sometime, and you can kinda tell me what's going on?"

I promise, watching sports won't kill you, and it'll at least give you a common topic of conversation. It's possible, even if it's unlikely, that you find you *gasp* like it.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 02:58 PM

Seriously, sports aren't bad. They can even be fun to play. I'm biased, but hockey is awesome, and I've known quite a number of nerd/geek types that play or watch it. It's a fast, smart game. Unfortunately, with sports a lot of the "smart" stuff isn't apparent until you know the sport well enough to "get" it. Just like a lot of "meta" stuff in shows or whatever isn't entertaining until you know the genre well enough to get what's being poked at.

PREACH IT, BROTHA!!

That made you just even more awesome in my eyes! Getting pumped up for the Playoffs? What team are you backing? :smallbiggrin:

kyoryu

2011-04-12, 03:00 PM

PREACH IT, BROTHA!!

That made you just even more awesome in my eyes! Getting pumped up for the Playoffs? What team are you backing? :smallbiggrin:

Hawks. Gonna have to back them until my Avs crawl out of the cellar in a decade or so :/

Apart from them, I'm gonna have to cheer on the Sharks or the Pens.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 03:01 PM

Canucks are gonna sweep all the way to the Stanley cup, fellas. Sorry in advance. :smallwink:

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 03:04 PM

Hockey is art in motion.

There. I said it.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 03:09 PM

Hawks. Gonna have to back them until my Avs crawl out of the cellar in a decade or so :/

Apart from them, I'm gonna have to cheer on the Sharks or the Pens.

Oh... you must have felt sorry for the PK Subban beauty OT goal that made us clinch last week :smallcool:

Cause my team is Canadien, Team of Teams,
Look on my game, ye Champions, and despair!
And Subban's my favourite player... :smallbiggrin:

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 03:11 PM

... and what you've got is two people/groups who will not compromise and be open-minded enough to try something that they haven't already decided that they like.

I like sports. Its not my schtic. Mostly I like volleyball and do allot of working out. Its just that thier so STUPID! They make me so mad sometimes! Like making jokes about the ****ing holocaust or the battle for Leningrad.

Seriously, sports aren't bad. They can even be fun to play.

I love Volleyball and tennis.

I'm biased, but hockey is awesome, and I've known quite a number of nerd/geek types that play or watch it.

Its fun to play.

It's a fast, smart game. Unfortunately, with sports a lot of the "smart" stuff isn't apparent until you know the sport well enough to "get" it.

I was the strategist on the basketball team...nobody listened to me. I noticed the strategies.

Just like a lot of "meta" stuff in shows or whatever isn't entertaining until you know the genre well enough to get what's being poked at.

Its just kinda boring to me. Im NOT saying its bad. Its just not my thing.

Next time you have a conversation like that, why not say, "Hey, you know, I've never watched much football/whatever, and don't know it that well. Mind if I watch a game with you sometime, and you can kinda tell me what's going on?"

I get kinda bored quickly. Its just a personal thing.

I promise, watching sports won't kill you, and it'll at least give you a common topic of conversation. It's possible, even if it's unlikely, that you find you *gasp* like it.

I didn't. Stop acting like my dad.

I tried, but I didn't like watching sports.

I LIKE sports. Its FUN to play, it makes me feel GOOD. But its not my thing.

Its a split of theologies with my classmates.

Teacher says: "Write about who you are, it might surprise you"
Post class: "Dude that was retarded"

Fan

2011-04-12, 03:11 PM

I do not know if there some kind of official art called razzle dazzle art.
But in my slang, it means art that intends to be "deep", or "emotional" when its either soulless corporate marketing or just flinging art at the wall in hopes of getting people to say "wow your deep".

It came from a song I heard on the Muppet Show, with the lyric
"Long as you keep 'em way off balance
How can they spot you got no talents?"

I know that some people overwhelmingly like them on this forum but I just wanted to speak out against the common people and say my opinion.

Its ironic that these works of art are considered the norm, and if you don't like them, then your just "Simpleminded". The irony comes from how people call it "not part of the mainstream" while not allowing peolle to dislike it.

I dislike (This is only my opinion):

Neon Genisis Evangelion:
Look, there is the standard of the main characters being boring because there is no arc in thier character growth, and its like watching a guy scream about his life while refusing to try to make it better (My opinion). But I dont get why its so beloved. Where is the "deepness"?

You request, I arrive. NGE is my love, so while I understand that I may be biased in my like of the characters, here is what I get as a writer, and a pseudo non professional psychologist (I have two uni courses dedicated to sociology, and psychology under my belt, specifically in relation to children, and mid teens.)

It starts out with a kid who has been abandoned his entire life. The only contact with his father has been with the man in a constant disdainful mood, and there exist multiple hints of abuse from the family he was with. On top of this, he also lost his mother at an early age. This alone. Is enough to make someone a basket case in real life.

Add on to this that when he actually arrived had the world literally explode around him as he saw first hand every defense man had against it's enemies fail against a horrible lovecraftian monster.

Couple this with his fathers continued disdain throughout the series despite achievements, the near constant mental abuse he undergoes, and then the physical abuse (Up to and including being BOILED ALIVE, and having mental limbs torn off on multiple occasions, complete with pain and loss of function in that limb.) he receives not only in the line of duty for his father, but also from those around him he does his best to save.

As the story progresses we see a general mental slope that is inclined so very, very, downward into sociopathy.

Parallel this with the people around him, Rei, who functions and lives only because of her duty to pilot the Evangelion. It completes her, and she follows most orders unquestioningly, though later in the series she shows herself to be anything but a doll, eventually developing free will, and an ability to form real connections with people despite how the adults in her life treat her. In the end, she sacrifices herself for the sake of others, and fights for her own desires as opposed to simply being ordered to. If going from complete emotional basket to compassionate isn't character growth, then I don't know what is.

Asuka, an over achiever desperate for approval from the one person she will never get it from, herself. Had her mother commit suicide in front of her, but manages to overcome this for the majority of the series until she is (spoilers) mind raped (spoilers) into a depressed mess that falls comatose. This is one of the first casualties of war we see, it shows just how far humanity has fallen to allow a child to be maimed mentally that horribly for the sake of some plan none of them really understand. When she "recovers" she turns out to be on a hair trigger and flips **** on Shinji after being together with him for a short period, this leads to the infamous.. well.. it's a very infamous scene for a reason. This is the final straw into insanity for Shinji, showing how far he has fallen in one explosive moment of drama, and near blood shed.

If anything, Evangelion is TOO Deep, and this is what often causes confusion with the underlying meanings in the story, if you don't watch every episode in sequence at least once, and with a decent understanding on human psychology.. it wont really help. Now I don't claim to be an expert, but these are my observations as a person, and someone with minor amounts of experience in the field. If someone with an actual degree, and better experience in the field has their own observations, then I ask you to please take theirs into accordance before mine.

kyoryu

2011-04-12, 03:15 PM

I didn't. Stop acting like my dad.

I tried, but I didn't like watching sports.

And sometimes we do things that aren't our favorites, and try to find some level of enjoyment in them, in order to compromise and hang out with other people.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 03:16 PM

Humans. We're social animals.

chiasaur11

2011-04-12, 03:17 PM

Do you also hate Razzle-dazzle Globetrotter Calculus?

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 03:37 PM

What's the matter, TheArsenal?

Too deep (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/al0013/marianatrench.jpg) for you?

EDIT: Oh screw your resizing Photobucket, I give up.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 03:39 PM

(I have two uni courses dedicated to sociology, and psychology under my belt, specifically in relation to children, and mid teens.)

Please don't bring degrees into the internet. Im sure you have them, but its just a common tactic online: " I have a degree in Nuclear Physics!".

If anything, Evangelion is TOO Deep, and this is what often causes confusion with the underlying meanings in the story, if you don't watch every episode in sequence at least once, and with a decent understanding on human psychology.. it wont really help. Now I don't claim to be an expert, but these are my observations as a person, and someone with minor amounts of experience in the field. If someone with an actual degree, and better experience in the field has their own observations, then I ask you to please take theirs into accordance before mine.

I do understand your opinion but I disagree.

I felt like "His father abandoned him" is just an excuse for angst (I hate that word. Its almost as bad as Emo). I would have liked to have seen more of his life to SEE why he got that way. This way I could feel bad for him. Loosing your parents at an early age CAN be a problem but he was like....5. Its not that big of a deal. Its troubling, but its not emotionary crippling.

The Problem is that the Plot/ Characters intermingle to create a poor mess (My opinion only).

Why not mount the Huge LAZOR knives/ Guns onto tanks or Planes/ Missiles? Im sure that a couple a hundred of piercing shots could kill an angel.

Why is Japan suffering the least from a flood? Its a tiny island.

And Soul Shields sound like something a 7 year old would write (And then he takes out his super soul piercing knife!"

I agree that on first sight the monster attacking would cause me to flip my **** as well.

But why not send a kid from the school? They have as much training, and are probably more stable emotionally (Or is it powered by misery and dead mother souls) and much closer.

I agree that on some situations it would be painful. But the situations come to be in plot ex machina due to undefined monster rules.

Shinchi: He goes knowhere. Its like watching me at 13, after being bullied. Its boring for me because I do not care "Oh the winy kid is wining again....how enthralling". He lacks moments where you can care for him, as a result I just end up rooting for the angels to get him to STFU. This kid did Nothing to improve on his situation, I felt bored, knowing that all that will happen is him monologuing to himself how life sucks.

That Clone Chick: She was very dull. Dull Dull Dull. It was like a "Huh....She is talking now? I dont care". Dullness can destroy interesting characters. She wasn't that interesting to me so it was even worse. Plus a confusing back story.

Azuka: I agree that her situation makes more sense but again, I DO NOT CARE! The pilling up of problems for not fully fleshed out characters was boring to watch (For me).

I just find crying teenagers (Ones a Whiny, ones Dull, and One is a bitch) boring.

And again, why is the show deep? You told me what the story said "These characters are messed up".

OK. I get their messed up. So what? Why should I care?

druid91

2011-04-12, 03:42 PM

OK. I get their messed up. So what? Why should I care?

The real question is, why shouldn't you?

Mystic Muse

2011-04-12, 03:47 PM

Tengu_temp

2011-04-12, 03:48 PM

Loosing your parents at an early age CAN be a problem but he was like....5. Its not that big of a deal. Its troubling, but its not emotionary crippling.

Are you seriously saying that losing your parents is not such a big deal? Especially if you're still a kid?

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 03:51 PM

The real question is, why shouldn't you?

Alright the Guy is messed up....So? If at first I thought he was a good guy or underwent some character change, I would say "Oh crap. I dont want that to happen to him". But its a constant downward spiral From winy to tantrum. I felt no growth from him so I felt like I was wasting my time. I liked the beginning where he was beginning to sort out his problems but then he stops and starts crying again.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 03:51 PM

...

You didn't watch NGE, did you? You might have noticed that the Evangelion units have this thing, this field thing, which has certain properties. Among other things, it's one of the few abilities that even allows them to fight the Angels on even terms.

And then you get the hemisphere-wide angels that are made of mind rape... Yeah, you're not shooting that to death, no matter how many lazors you have.

Alright the Guy is messed up....So? If at first I thought he was a good guy or underwent some character change, I would say "Oh crap. I dont want that to happen to him". But its a constant downward spiral From winy to tantrum. I felt no growth from him so I felt like I was wasting my time. I liked the beginning where he was beginning to sort out his problems but then he stops and starts crying again.

Shinji is a ****ty person. That is the entire point.

Poison_Fish

2011-04-12, 03:52 PM

I didn't know The Arsenal was an obscurant terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Derrida).

Fan

2011-04-12, 03:55 PM

Please don't bring degrees into the internet. Im sure you have them, but its just a common tactic online: " I have a degree in Nuclear Physics!".

I do understand your opinion but I disagree.

I felt like "His father abandoned him" is just an excuse for angst (I hate that word. Its almost as bad as Emo). I would have liked to have seen more of his life to SEE why he got that way. This way I could feel bad for him. Loosing your parents at an early age CAN be a problem but he was like....5. Its not that big of a deal. Its troubling, but its not emotionary crippling.

The Problem is that the Plot/ Characters intermingle to create a poor mess (My opinion only).

Why not mount the Huge LAZOR knives/ Guns onto tanks or Planes/ Missiles? Im sure that a couple a hundred of piercing shots could kill an angel.

Why is Japan suffering the least from a flood? Its a tiny island.

And Soul Shields sound like something a 7 year old would write (And then he takes out his super soul piercing knife!"

I agree that on first sight the monster attacking would cause me to flip my **** as well.

But why not send a kid from the school? They have as much training, and are probably more stable emotionally (Or is it powered by misery and dead mother souls) and much closer.

I agree that on some situations it would be painful. But the situations come to be in plot ex machina due to undefined monster rules.

Shinchi: He goes knowhere. Its like watching me at 13, after being bullied. Its boring for me because I do not care "Oh the winy kid is wining again....how enthralling". He lacks moments where you can care for him, as a result I just end up rooting for the angels to get him to STFU. This kid did Nothing to improve on his situation, I felt bored, knowing that all that will happen is him monologuing to himself how life sucks.

That Clone Chick: She was very dull. Dull Dull Dull. It was like a "Huh....She is talking now? I dont care". Dullness can destroy interesting characters. She wasn't that interesting to me so it was even worse. Plus a confusing back story.

Azuka: I agree that her situation makes more sense but again, I DO NOT CARE! The pilling up of problems for not fully fleshed out characters was boring to watch (For me).

I just find crying teenagers (Ones a Whiny, ones Dull, and One is a bitch) boring.

And again, why is the show deep? You told me what the story said "These characters are messed up".

OK. I get their messed up. So what? Why should I care?

Actually, Shinji lost his parents earlier than that, and his replacement parents were abusive. Also, I would appreciate it if you'd at least.. I unno.. try to spell things right that were spelled right in the previous post?

The definition of whining is doing it without cause, having your arm torn off, and yourself boiled alive in what amounts to highly oxygenated BLOOD is a reason all it's own to be ****ed up.

They also NEVER cry, I challenge you to find one image of Shinji actually crying that is canon in a situation that does not warrant tears.

If you REFUSE to care about a story it wont ever be any good for you, it's called conceptual bias, and it can ruin everything from food to movies for people based upon notions that they have already put up in their mind.

What this thread and your involvement in it has shown me is that you are mentally unwilling to change your view points based upon logical arguments set forth by others.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's just bad form to post "I hate these things because X." and not listen to any sort of counter argument beyond what you already interpret as the response.

My post was not meant to tell you that they were messed up by as to the opposite of explaining why, people who lose their parents, are torn limb from limb on a daily basis, etc, are all likely to be depressed, in fact. No one can say that losing a limb or being boiled alive wouldn't have dramatic effects on them, and all I said wasn't even mentioning the fact that he was forced to cannibalize his best friend.

Also, NUKES don't work on angels, the only reasons the Evangelions work is because of their AT Field, and even then they only get at max 5 minutes of use out of them aside from being connected to direct feed from a fusion reactor.

The kids did get to take part in the Evangelion project, they failed to be mentally stable enough to handle contact with the Evangelion, and proceeded to go on a cannibalistic rampage. Forcing the situation I mentioned earlier.
Here, just watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pI6p9C-hV0&feature=related), if the concept of an absolute terror field (which is in fact NOT the soul, but a human's individual consciousness and will. ) was written by a seven year old it would never fail, if the concept was written by a seven year old, it wouldn't contain elements that draw deeply into real psychological dilemmas that people face when they have actually been abused.

If you refuse to accept a concept, and suspend disbelief for certain elements that serve as a story telling tool, then how can you expect to like it?

It's like going on about how in Toy Story the Toy's talk, and move on their own and refusing to accept the concept of walking talking toys simply because it doesn't mesh with reality.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 03:56 PM

...
You didn't watch NGE, did you? You might have noticed that the Evangelion units have this thing, this field thing, which has certain properties. Among other things, it's one of the few abilities that even allows them to fight the Angels on even terms.

Like what?

And then you get the hemisphere-wide angels that are made of mind rape... Yeah, you're not shooting that to death, no matter how many lazors you have.

But a spear, **** just got real! Why not just launch the spear? And how could the mecha have such perfect aiming skills?

Shinji is a ****ty person. That is the entire point.

So why is that a good thing (In movie terms). If I hate the character (Not in an antagonistic or "I hope he gets whats coming for him" kinda way) but in the "Oh god is he annoying!" kinda way....Why is that good? It makes me want to turn off the TV.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 03:59 PM

The Absolute Terror field, the mutually neutralizing energy projected by the Evangelions and the Angels?

The "spear" is a progenitor god's weapon, part of whose role was to end and restart sentient life.

And again, the reason Shinji is a ****ty person is to make you feel bad about yourself, for reasons I covered earlier in the thread. :smallwink:

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 04:07 PM

The definition of whining is doing it without cause, having your arm torn off, and yourself boiled alive in what amounts to highly oxygenated BLOOD is a reason all it's own to be ****ed up.

I agree Ive been to harsh. He DOES have good reasons for being kinda depressed. He does. I take back my words. Your right about this. I apologize about this.

If you REFUSE to care about a story it wont ever be any good for you, it's called conceptual bias, and it can ruin everything from food to movies for people based upon notions that they have already put up in their mind.

Im asking WHY should I care about the characters, the plot the setting. Tell me why. Tell me. Im not kidding. I WANT to know.

What this thread and your involvement in it has shown me is that you are mentally unwilling to change your view points based upon logical arguments set forth by others.

I am. Tell me why is this a good story?

Also, NUKES don't work on angels, the only reasons the Evangelions work is because of their AT Field, and even then they only get at max 5 minutes of use out of them aside from being connected to direct feed from a fusion reactor.

What? Alright. Tell me in full detail how the shields, angels work. That way I can tell you my informed response.

deeply into real psychological dilemmas that people face when they have actually been abused.

Tell me them. I want to know.

It's like going on about how in Toy Story the Toy's talk, and move on their own and refusing to accept the concept of walking talking toys simply because it doesn't mesh with reality.

There is a difference between suspension of disbelief, and poor writing.

Suspension Of Disbelief is when I can accept things outside my norm.

Poor writing, is when elements are randomly introduced. Unexplained, or just poorly told.

Im asking WHY is this a good story? You told me the plot, but whats good about it?

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 04:09 PM

You haven't watched the series, so you don't know basic, fundamental details about NGE, and you're complaining about not understanding it?:smallamused:

You're making me use up my : smallamused : quota for the day, Arsenalbro.

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 04:11 PM

What? Alright. Tell me in full detail how the shields, angels work. That way I can tell you my informed response.
While we're sating curiosity: how did you watch enough of Evangelion to decide it was nonsense that just dazzled the ignorant with a show of Deep Symbolism, without picking up elements as basic as "they tried to nuke (well, N2 mine) an angel and it just took it", the AT fields and their importance, or the power limit? Honestly, it sounds like you either watched little enough of the show or paid little enough attention while watching it that if you want to understand it better you should perhaps just actually watch it rather than asking people here to step you through it frame by frame.

Mystic Muse

2011-04-12, 04:12 PM

I am.

So, what you're saying is that you are unwilling to change your view points? Why on Earth would they continue to argue with you then?

Fan

2011-04-12, 04:12 PM

I agree Ive been to harsh. He DOES have good reasons for being kinda depressed. He does. I take back my words. Your right about this. I apologize about this.

Im asking WHY should I care about the characters, the plot the setting. Tell me why. Tell me. Im not kidding. I WANT to know.

I am. Tell me why is this a good story?

What? Alright. Tell me in full detail how the shields, angels work. That way I can tell you my informed response.

Tell me them. I want to know.

There is a difference between suspension of disbelief, and poor writing.

Suspension Of Disbelief is when I can accept things outside my norm.

Poor writing, is when elements are randomly introduced. Unexplained, or just poorly told.

Im asking WHY is this a good story? You told me the plot, but whats good about it?

The plot (at least in this) shows how people can improve even after all that happens to them, how even through the greatest of trials and tribulations. After going through every up and down, every depressive fit, every injury. People will go on.

This is what the end of the series "Congratulations." meant, it was Shinji in the realm of Human Instrumentality finally learning to accept himself for who he was, and him deciding that humanity really deserved a second chance despite all his flaws.

The AT Field itself represents the Hedgehog's dilemma present in psychology where people get close to each other, but risk emotional injury by doing so. The AT Field is a mental construct formed from your will, thus, if you're afraid of getting to know people it wont be very strong (hence why Rei has the weakest of the AT fields.), however if you're too open you risk mental contamination by the Evangelion. Those who can be open to a degree, but have enough will to resist being hurt, can utilize the AT Field to it's fullest degree, allowing them to "overcome" in a way the Hedgehog's dillema. The story itself means that it's okay to get hurt sometimes, and bad things will happen in life. This story shows us that even the worst of us can recover and live happy lives (at least rebuild, and I completely disregard End.).

It's a good story because it not only conveys said motive, if beneath a sheath of GIANT ROBOT AWESOME, but at the same time it also focuses on internal character development and realistic reactions to what happens to them. It is for that reason right there that I consider it the best mecha show ever made, and even then it's not really even a mecha show.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 04:14 PM

You haven't watched the series, so you don't know basic, fundamental details about NGE, and you're complaining about not understanding it?:smallamused:

Yes! I just realized that. I should first off understand what the hell is going on THEN ask questions. But I WAS confused what was going on in the story, I WAS confused. So yeah. I should have asked people to fill me in first though.

Sorry people. I deserve a punch to the head.

And I HAVE watched the series. I have watched it from beginning to end.

Edit:

The AT Field itself represents the Hedgehog's dilemma present in psychology where people get close to each other, but risk emotional injury by doing so.
Ok.

The AT Field is a mental construct formed from your will, thus, if you're afraid of getting to know people it wont be very strong (hence why Rei has the weakest of the AT fields.), however if you're too open you risk mental contamination by the Evangelion.
Makes sense. But what are the Angels/ Evangelions?

Those who can be open to a degree, but have enough will to resist being hurt, can utilize the AT Field to it's fullest degree, allowing them to "overcome" in a way the Hedgehog's dillema.

Ok, why not use a mentally balanced child? Those that form bonds but are good with dealing with their problems?

The story itself means that it's okay to get hurt sometimes, and bad things will happen in life. This story shows us that even the worst of us can recover and live happy lives (at least rebuild, and I completely disregard End.).

Thats a good point. But I dont think the exacution was well done though. And can you explain the ending to me?

It's a good story because it not only conveys said motive,

I disagree. It spend so much time on the negative and a last minute positive. I agree, its ok to get hurt sometimes. But How is this related to alien robots? Its OK to get corrupted by giant alien robots sometimes?

GIANT ROBOT AWESOME,

I liked the giant robot fights. They seemed more realistic to me...well sorta.

but at the same time it also focuses on internal character development

What is the development? The positive development I mean.

and realistic reactions to what happens to them.

Il give you that. But I find the situations so weird that its a "well Duh" moment to me. If im missing something tell me.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-12, 04:18 PM

Yes! I just realized that. I should first off understand what the hell is going on THEN ask questions. But I WAS confused what was going on in the story, I WAS confused. So yeah. I should have asked people to fill me in first though.

The only thing I know about NGE is that if you can ever claim to understand everything about it, you gotta be put in institution for your own good.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 04:25 PM

The only thing I know about NGE is that if you can ever claim to understand everything about it, you gotta be put in institution for your own good.

See this? Is just untrue. Until you get to the last two episodes which intentionally make no sense in context or EoE which just goes very fast, anyway. The only problem with understanding Evangelion (aside, again, from those endings) is that there are a lot of different layers to the story and none of them except maybe Shinji's personal psychological issues get the same kind of laborious exposition you expect from most TV shows. There's Shinji's adolescence (which I'd call the "main plot"), the Angel fights, the conspiracy behind NERV and SEELE, the conspiracy behind the Evangelions, the conspiracy to expose the other conspiracies without dooming the world in the process, and then there's all the **** Gendo does. There's simply a lot going on, and you have to pay attention to how all the different plots interact with each other.

Oh, and don't get too bogged down in the imagery or clever camera tricks or arbitrary foreshadowing or you'll miss the plot. If you find yourself getting distracted by things like wondering why Rei was there and disappeared in the first scene, don't be afraid to pause your DVD until you're back in an open mindset.

Worira

2011-04-12, 04:34 PM

I think that even if you give very good reasons for your characters to be the way they are, if you make them unlikable jerks and pathetic whiners, they're still likely to make your show unfun to watch.

That said, I have enjoyed several works of fiction with protagonists who were uncaring sociopaths with little to no redeeming virtues, so I guess mileage may vary on that.

That said again, I can't think of any cases where I've enjoyed a series with a protagonist consistently locked in self-pity, no matter how warranted.

Innis Cabal

2011-04-12, 04:38 PM

Clever camera tricks. You mean like them standing in an elevator for five whole minutes?

Archpaladin Zousha

2011-04-12, 04:38 PM

I would say that, yes, I dislike works of art that claim deepness simply by being confusing, but that may be more due to my own neurological issues than a fault of the piece itself.

I've never watched Evangelion, but from what I've been told about it, it has its merits as a show that really took risks and pushed the envelope of its time, but I wouldn't enjoy it because I like a clear-cut ending and to understand how things turn out, and because Evangelion leaves its ending deliberately vague I'd just get a headache.

My opinions on 2001: A Space Odyssey are pretty much the same. Again though, I have yet to watch this film. The only Stanley Kubrick movie I've ever seen was Dr. Strangelove, which was much more clear-cut and understandable than 2001.

As for Lady Gaga? She's catchy, she actually knows how to sing and perform, and she's definitely carved a unique niche through her combination of catchiness and quirkiness. I'm not really into her genre of music (being more of a Blind Guardian man, myself), but I'd say she doesn't deserve all the vitriol slung at her. Some of it, she certainly deserves, but on the whole? Shine on you crazy diamond!

One film that has consistently bugged me though, is Citizen Kane. It's almost universally lauded as the greatest film ever to be created, but my dad, who's seen the movie back in the theaters, says it's boring. And when my dad finds something boring, I know that I probably will too, since we've got similar tastes in movies. I don't doubt Citizen Kane's a good film, but I have to seriously wonder what has film students and art critics drooling over it like it descended from Olympus or something.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-12, 04:42 PM

Clever camera tricks. You mean like them standing in an elevator for five whole minutes?

I found that technique better in Once Upon A Time In the West, to be honest.

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 04:45 PM

Incidentally, criticism of 2001 as substituting style for meaning are entirely baseless. This is not a matter of opinion.

Yes, the movie is unclear, but the movie was made while the book was being written, and the book is quite explicit about what's going on. If you watch the movie having read the book, it makes perfect sense. You might fault it for not being comprehensible enough on its own, but the imagery is by no means arbitrary razzamatazz.

Whether the slow pace bored you is a matter of taste, but whether the ending is meaningless nonsense is not.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 04:48 PM

This is not a matter of opinion.

It always is.

Whether the slow pace bored you is a matter of taste, but whether the ending is meaningless nonsense is not.

But if the ending is meaningless nonsense without reading a book then its the movies fault for not conveying it properly?

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 04:50 PM

Clever camera tricks. You mean like them standing in an elevator for five whole minutes?

No I meant the clever ones like the atmospheric long pans that actually had stuff going on in them. Eventually, they just ran out of money.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-12, 04:57 PM

So let me see here, the point of this thread is there's some art that other people like but you don't?

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 04:58 PM

It always is.
No. It is not. See below.

But if the ending is meaningless nonsense without reading a book then its the movies fault for not conveying it properly?
Sure. But that's not the criticism you were making, unless I've misunderstood you quite a bit:

I felt like Kubrik intentionally just made stuff confusing (I get the subtext), without getting what the hell he was doing anyway just to get a response.
Kubrick was not just throwing together random images to seem deep. He had a definite message to convey. He may not have conveyed it well, but the accusation that he was just faking depth is not a matter of opinion, it's simply incorrect. You can have an opinion about it, of course, the same way you can have an opinion about anything objectively verifiable, but it's not a matter of opinion: it's simply not the case.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 05:07 PM

No. It is not. See below.

It still is (Though I agree with you though).

Sure. But that's not the criticism you were making, unless I've misunderstood you quite a bit:

No I just misunderstood Kubrik.

Kubrick was not just throwing together random images to seem deep. He had a definite message to convey.
He may not have conveyed it well, but the accusation that he was just faking depth is not a matter of opinion, it's simply incorrect.

If your talking about the plot then yes he did convey it. But Im talking about the hipsters that say there is some higher meaning to it all. Its possible that Kubrik intentional made it wierd so that those that some hipsters said it was "raising questions" when the plot itself is rather simple. Its a possibility.

You can have an opinion about it, of course, the same way you can have an opinion about anything objectively verifiable, but it's not a matter of opinion: it's simply not the case.

Avoid saying "Thats the case". Thats what I did. Its just kinda hypocritical.

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 05:28 PM

It still is (Though I agree with you though).
...
Avoid saying "Thats the case". Thats what I did. Its just kinda hypocritical.
What on earth are you talking about?

You made a false assertion, I pointed it out, so now it's hypocritical of me to assert the truth? Assertion is not the problem, error is. That, and asserting a fact but saying "well that's just my opinion" to deflect criticism.

If your talking about the plot then yes he did convey it. But Im talking about the hipsters that say there is some higher meaning to it all. Its possible that Kubrik intentional made it wierd so that those that some hipsters said it was "raising questions" when the plot itself is rather simple. Its a possibility.
Well sure, it's a possibility in that any artist ever whose work impresses "hipsters" (not going to get in to that one) might have been doing it just to have that effect. Yes, any given artist you don't personally enjoy may just have been a pandering hack. It may be that all art is just a naked Emperor surrounded by sycophants and you're the brave soul who sees through the lies.

That seems a lot less likely than that you overreact to works you don't personally enjoy, though.

Ursus the Grim

2011-04-12, 05:30 PM

Arsenal, I noticed a few of your questions about angels and Evangelions went unanswered. Below are the basics, simplified and occasionally copied from the wiki.

Adam (The First Angel) was created by the First Ancestral Race billions of years ago and sent to Earth within the White Moon to fill the Earth with its progeny, the Angels. However, before Adam could accomplish its mission, the "Black Moon" transport containing a second Seed of Life, Lilith, accidentally crash landed onto Earth. Two Seeds are not meant to exist on the same planet, and in the event that this accidentally occurs a Spear of Longinus which all Seeds are accompanied with should inactivate one Seed. However, the Spear accompanying Lilith was destroyed in the crash, leaving Adam's Spear as the only functional one on Earth. Thus, Adam was placed into suspended animation by its own Spear of Longinus, and the progeny of Lilith populated the planet instead of Angels.

In Short, the Angels are essentially extremely powerful extraterrestrial beings. Adam is the first angel and considered a “Seed of Life”. Seele (NERV’s main corporation) weakened him and used his genetic material to create the Evangelions. Lilith, the second “angel” was the progenitor of humanity.
The Evangelions are giant humanoid “robots” fashioned after Adam but piloted by Lilith’s offspring. Their overall purpose? On the surface to fight off the Angels who come to free Adam, but underneath it, to initiate Third Impact. First Impact was Lilith’s arrival on Earth, Second Impact was Adam’s arrival.

There are a few possibilities for third impact.

First, if an Angel reached Adam, it would generate an Anti-AT field that would erase all Lilith based life on the planet, specifically humans, but probably all non-angels. Second, Seele wanted to create a controlled Third Impact to break down the AT fields between people and cause them to form a collective consciousness. Third, Gendo wanted to bring back his dead wife, but the details on this one are vague.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 05:43 PM

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 05:47 PM

What on earth are you talking about?

You made a false assertion, I pointed it out, so now it's hypocritical of me to assert the truth? Assertion is not the problem, error is. That, and asserting a fact but saying "well that's just my opinion" to deflect criticism.

Im saying that truth is in the eye of the beholder. I agree with you that he WASN'T just shoving stuff on screen. Im saying that insisting your truth is the right one (Especially when concerning Kubrick abstract works) is wrong. They see thier own version, you see yours. Because thats all generaly things are in the world, opinions. Everything is an opinion if you wanna get into that artsy shmultz.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 05:52 PM

Everything is an opinion.

No. No it is not. There are objective measures of reality. There are even objective measures of fiction, but this isn't even dealing with fiction. It's dealing with the actual intent of an actual person who actually wrote down and told people what his intent was (if nothing else, it's in the foreword to the 2001 novel). Reality is reality, regardless of opinion. What you just said is pure arrogant solipsism in an attempt to ignore that you were factually wrong.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 05:55 PM

What the hell?

"Oh I totally agree with you, but some people do not"

"What you just said is pure arrogant solipsism in an attempt to ignore that you were factually wrong"

Why? Why so aggressive?

Mystic Muse

2011-04-12, 05:57 PM

What the hell?

"Truth is relative. Everything is an opinion"

"What you just said is pure arrogant solipsism in an attempt to ignore that you were factually wrong"

Why? Why so aggressive?

Fixed it for you. This is what you actually said.

That is why. That may not be what you meant but it's what you said and it is indeed factually wrong.

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 05:58 PM

Why? Why so aggressive?
Some people think truth is important.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 05:59 PM

What the hell?

"Oh I totally agree with you, but some people do not"

"What you just said is pure arrogant solipsism in an attempt to ignore that you were factually wrong"

Why? Why so aggressive?

Because you are lying to avoid taking responsibility for the things you say, and that ticks me off.

Innis Cabal

2011-04-12, 06:00 PM

Fixed it for you.

That is why. That may not be what you meant but it's what you said and it is indeed factually wrong.

And it's still wrong. Truth isn't relative. Truth is a constant, it's perception that's relative. How you witness an event doesn't make how it happened any less true. It just means that what you saw wasn't the whole of what really went on.

Mystic Muse

2011-04-12, 06:01 PM

And it's still wrong. Truth isn't relative. Truth is a constant, it's perception that's relative. How you witness an event doesn't make how it happened any less true. It just means that what you saw wasn't the whole of what really went on.

I know. I was pointing out that is what he said, not that I agree with it. Although I guess that could be much clearer than it is.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 06:05 PM

Because you are lying to avoid taking responsibility for the things you say, and that ticks me off.

But I said I was wrong! I did! Im just saying "Well people have their own opinions lets leave it there" I didn't say they make SENSE but still opinions.

I said that I thought that Kubrik was flinging stuff onscreen

I found out no, that wasn't the case, it was just told in a weird way and I could fault him for not conveying it properly.

Then I said that everything is relative by the persons view.
A beholder may be an insane psychopath but its still his opinion.

Sheesh,

kamikasei

2011-04-12, 06:09 PM

But I said I was wrong! I did! Im just saying "Well people have their own opinions lets leave it there" I didn't say they make SENSE but still opinions.
If opinions are all there are, if everything's an opinion, what persuaded you that you were wrong? Why would your opinion ever change? You're simultaneously saying that you were wrong and persuaded of that fact, and thus changed your opinion to line up with reality, and that there is no reality and there is only opinion, which would make the idea that you could have been wrong meaningless.

Innis Cabal

2011-04-12, 06:10 PM

That doesn't mean his opinion is valid. Opinions can, and often are, incorrect. They're not immune to scrutiny just because they're an opinion nor are they the end all be all of a debate based on some preconceived notion nor do they have an immunity from logic.

Poison_Fish

2011-04-12, 06:11 PM

God day sir! I SAID GOOD DAY SIR! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics) - Professor Fish

I'd also introduce the concept of validity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity). The problem here is your not offering much in the way of support with your criticisms: Calling things as hipsters, being obscure about how 2001 was obscure and thus how that somehow means it is artsy for artsy's sake, etc. Given that this isn't something we can quantitatively measure, we must confirm things valid by argumentation and the strength of the evidence that is provided. Remember, something is a certain way because of a reason.

Edit: In conjunction with Innis's point above

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 06:14 PM

Am I going insane! How much times do I have to say I was wrong! Its like

"I was wrong"

"Your wrong"

"Yes I am wrong"

"Your wrong"

WTF!

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 06:18 PM

Am I going insane! How much times do I have to say I was wrong! Its like

"I was wrong"

"Your wrong"

"Yes I am wrong"

"Your wrong"

WTF!

Okay.

The point is not that you were wrong, nor that you admitted you were wrong. The point was you making up the excuse afterwards that you could not possibly be wrong, because "everything is an opinion".

I personally take offense to the idea that there is no such thing as objective reality for a variety of reasons I can explain in detail if you wish, and that (and the fact that I like Evangelion and 2001) is why I am responding harshly.

Is this clearer?

Lord Seth

2011-04-12, 06:21 PM

A few thoughts.

2001: I disagree with Confused Matthew on a bunch of things, but I think he was right on in his critique of 2001 (http://confusedmatthew.com/2001%3A-A-Space-Odyssey.php) (he also had some valid points about it here (http://confusedmatthew.com/chaseresponse.php)).

Lady Gaga: Don't see how she's even relevant to this discussion. She's never thought of as deep, at best she's just thought of as an entertainer who makes catchy songs.

Neon Genesis Evangelion: I liked this series, but one problem I had is that the universe itself seems out to make the protagonists miserable. This isn't so bad in and of itself, but if it's trying to deconstruct the giant robot genre, it feels like it makes a strawman out of it through its exaggeration and the way the whole world seems set up. Kind of the opposite of Gurren Lagann, where the whole way the world works is that hot bloodedness always triumphs (heck, that's the whole source of power for their robots). I like both, but my problem is that if you set up the basics of the world either way, you're going to get the kind of results those series got--neither one really seems to say that much about the genre. This isn't so much of a problem for Gurren Lagann as it was just a fun show that wasn't trying to really make serious statements, but if Evangelion was intended to be a deconstruction, I think its exaggerations sort of mess that up.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 06:25 PM

Okay.

The point is not that you were wrong, nor that you admitted you were wrong. The point was you making up the excuse afterwards that you could not possibly be wrong, because "everything is an opinion".

I wasn't! I was defending another viewpoint other than my own. I said that it was artsy crap and stuff! Its a stupid viewpoint but I said that!

Evangelion

But it promotes nihilism!

Mr.Bookworm

2011-04-12, 06:26 PM

And I HAVE watched the series. I have watched it from beginning to end.

Watch it again, then. Many of your questions are things that are actually addressed inside of the series, at least indirectly.

Or better yet, watch Rebuild. It's shorter, has gorgeous animation, is somewhat more optimistic in tone, and is a bit more actiony.

But I'll answer your questions, though I've probably been ninja'd by now.

Makes sense. But what are the Angels/ Evangelions?

The Angels are ancient alien life seeds. Or rather, Lilith and Adam are. Lilith is the giant Angel at the bottom of the Geofront (which is her ship), and Adam is the one that gets implanted in Gendo's hand. Adam is the progenitor of the Angels, who possess the Fruit of Life (the core you always see on Angels, which provides god-like powers), and Lilith is the creator of all other life on Earth, especially humans, who possess the Fruit of Knowledge.

The Evangelions are more or less artificial Angels.

The Angels are attacking the Geofront because SEELE and Gendo somehow spoofed a signal that made them believe Adam was in there instead of Lilith. The Angel that merges with Adam would gain the ability to basically restructure the entire Earth in their image. Merging with Lilith would cause unspecified Bad Stuff to happen.

Ok, why not use a mentally balanced child? Those that form bonds but are good with dealing with their problems?

Because it really doesn't matter. They need them for fifteen fights, and then they're done, because the apocalypse is going to happen then anyway. There's not a long-term in Evangelion. Pilots you can manipulate into working for you and toss away when you're done (see: Asuka) are more useful to the powers that be then mentally stable soldiers.

Thats a good point. But I dont think the exacution was well done though. And can you explain the ending to me?

Which ending? There are a couple. The original ending is the slightly happy one, where Shinji learns to come to terms with other people.

The End of Evangelion ending is the mind**** ending, and I honestly don't know how to explain that one to you beyond the fact that Asuka and Shinji end up alone on the shattered corpse of the Earth after Third Impact.

I disagree. It spend so much time on the negative and a last minute positive. I agree, its ok to get hurt sometimes. But How is this related to alien robots? Its OK to get corrupted by giant alien robots sometimes?

It's metaphorical on one level, and on another level, Evangelion still has some visceral blow-****-up action mixed with it's psychological drama.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 06:35 PM

The Angels are ancient alien life seeds. Or rather, Lilith and Adam are. Lilith is the giant Angel at the bottom of the Geofront (which is her ship), and Adam is the one that gets implanted in Gendo's hand. Adam is the progenitor of the Angels, who possess the Fruit of Life (the core you always see on Angels, which provides god-like powers), and Lilith is the creator of all other life on Earth, especially humans, who possess the Fruit of Knowledge.

The Evangelions are more or less artificial Angels.

The Angels are attacking the Geofront because SEELE and Gendo somehow spoofed a signal that made them believe Adam was in there instead of Lilith. The Angel that merges with Adam would gain the ability to basically restructure the entire Earth in their image. Merging with Lilith would cause unspecified Bad Stuff to happen.

This is weird. I have nothing to say. This is very confusing.

Because it really doesn't matter. They need them for fifteen fights, and then they're done, because the apocalypse is going to happen then anyway. There's not a long-term in Evangelion. Pilots you can manipulate into working for you and toss away when you're done (see: Asuka) are more useful to the powers that be then mentally stable soldiers.

But AT shields depend on mental stability. And you dont need to throw anybody away. Just say "Thanks for saving the earth, il be taking that pleese".

Which ending? There are a couple. The original ending is the slightly happy one, where Shinji learns to come to terms with other people.

The End of Evangelion ending is the mind**** ending, and I honestly don't know how to explain that one to you beyond the fact that Asuka and Shinji end up alone on the shattered corpse of the Earth after Third Impact.

No. He excepts a Nihilistic point of view at the end by saying that everything is subjective.

It's metaphorical on one level, and on another level, Evangelion still has some visceral blow-****-up action mixed with it's psychological drama.

So there isnt an answer?

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 06:37 PM

But it promotes nihilism!

Can you back this up, or are you just throwing out another poorly thought-out argument with no basis and you'll backpedal and call it an opinion later?

I mean, I'd like to know. It'll help me understand how I should frame my argument.

No. He excepts a Nihilistic point of view at the end by saying that everything is subjective.

Oh, okay, you just don't know what nihilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism) is.

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 06:57 PM

Can you back this up, or are you just throwing out another poorly thought-out argument with no basis and you'll backpedal and call it an opinion later?

I mean, I'd like to know. It'll help me understand how I should frame my argument.

To be fair I used the wrong word: Postmodern Existentialism, not nhilism
Like at the end? Before congratulations?

And I qoute:

Its your mind what takes reality and separates it into whats bad and whats hatefull

It is only the mind which separates reality from truth

The Angle of view and the position from which you view your reality will change its perception of its nature. It is all literally a matter of perpective.

There are as many truths as there are people (Exactly what I said, but you called me ignorant)

But there is only one truth that is your truth, Thats the one thats formed from whatever point of view you choose to view it from

Your truth can be changed simply by the way you accept it, thats how fragile for a human truth is

A humans truth is so simple that most ignore it to concentrate on what they think are deeper truths.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 07:04 PM

There are as many truths as there are people (Exactly what I said, but you called me ignorant)

No, you said:

Everything is an opinion

{Scrubbed}

TheArsenal

2011-04-12, 07:06 PM

{Scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

Right about that.
So what about the quotes?

Edit:

I guess your right, opinion and truth arent the same thing.

Lord Seth

2011-04-12, 07:09 PM

I actually didn't dislike the last two episodes as much as some people did, I thought I was at least mostly following it and understanding what was going on...until the final portion, where it throws even that level of coherence out the window.

It did get me over 200,000 views (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDajqW561KM), though!

JonestheSpy

2011-04-12, 07:11 PM

But Im talking about the hipsters that say there is some higher meaning to it all. Its possible that Kubrik intentional made it wierd so that those that some hipsters said it was "raising questions" when the plot itself is rather simple.

Wow, I've seen lots of definitions of 'hipster', but this is the first time I've seen it mean "the majority of two generations of film critics and other cinema enthusiasts".

Oh, and Lady Gaga=totally awesome. The pinnacle of modern pop/dance music.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-04-12, 07:12 PM

I guess your right, opinion and truth arent the same thing.

Well, I suppose we've come to terms then.

Now I'll just go enjoy my ban, thanks.

Poison_Fish

2011-04-12, 07:18 PM

Professor Fish nitpick:

Please note, nihilist existentialism does not equate to "everything is subjective" but instead equates to "Nothing holds objective value or meaning". In fact, there is very little that is existentialist about post-modernity as the post modern movement ascribes to critical theory and structuralism. Things have subjective meaning, for instance.

I'd argue that with the case of NGE, that it is not actually Nihilist, as it's messages do not equate to how everything is meaningless. There is a subjective reality, but those hold meaning for the individual characters. The classical view of NGE is that it is actually a deconstruction of giant robot anime. Deconstructionism is a tool associated with structuralism and also with the postmodern movement. See: what I previously linked to about Semiotics.

Edit: Essentially, I don't think you have a clue what your saying. When you make a point, please create some form of validity to support your claims.

onthetown

2011-04-12, 07:19 PM

It's allright for an artist to sell out. Just do not call them "deep".

Here's a notion... While it is common for "shallow" artists (by your definition of shallow or whatever, anyway) to "sell out", is it possible for artists who were already "deep" to "sell out"? If so, do all previous songs they recorded retain the level of deepness they're renowned for, or are the songs automatically thrown out of the deep definition by association with their artists?

Give them a break... Real fans won't care about "selling out" because they just want to keep hearing their favourite artists making awesome music, and for the most part the artists seem to be happy to keep appeasing their fans.

I'm not exactly a fan of Lady Gaga, but I thought it was worth mentioning that your statement seemed a little closed-minded to me. It's like saying, "It's alright for waffles to have bacon on them, but do not call them "delicious"." I'll call my waffles whatever I want to call them. :smallamused:

Edit: Ah, ninja'd by somebody a little more aggressive. I really need to start reading all of the pages on these things.

Ursus the Grim

2011-04-12, 07:59 PM

It's worth noting that the first two paragraph or so there is all from supplemental materials. They're not brought up at all in the show because it's not important to understanding the events of the story. It's cool background, though.

This is true, but I figured if he had trouble grasping what was going on from the main series alone, the supplemental info would help. The series is really about Shinji's deevolution and then redemption as a character. The AT Field and the nature of the Evas really augment that, IMO, and flesh out the psychological aspect.

Anyway, back to the current debate, I guess I should aim back on topic.

I understand criticisms. Personally, I think 2001 was artsy for the sake of being artsy. Out of those three examples, 2001 was the modern art piece. I hate modern art. Lady Gaga is perfectly entitled to sell out. She was just as talented as a piano player (Juilliard grad!) as she is a pop sensation, but you know what? She wasn't earning money. Now she is. Eva was a little over the top sometimes, but I still found it enjoyable. I wouldn't call it razzle-dazzle if it still had hardcore mech/alien battles, even if they were intended to invert the tropes.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-12, 08:47 PM

I can't speak for anyone else but the last two episodes of NGE made me look at my friends, look at the screen, then go get a drink from the fridge before I put on polka music.

And for the most part, the sources about the nature of Adam and Lilith weren't in the main show. I found out about those years latter. Plus, I don't recall it ever being canonical. So... whatever.

Moff Chumley

2011-04-12, 09:07 PM

I feel that bringing Zen philosophy into this discussion would either be a great idea or a terrible one. I'm not sure which... :smallconfused:

That doesn't mean his opinion is valid. Opinions can, and often are, incorrect. They're not immune to scrutiny just because they're an opinion nor are they the end all be all of a debate based on some preconceived notion nor do they have an immunity from logic.

This is perhaps the best I've ever heard it put. Thanks, Innis.

Oh, and Lady Gaga=totally awesome. The pinnacle of modern pop/dance music.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG... :smalltongue:

Do you also hate Razzle-dazzle Globetrotter Calculus?

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/626/original/ohoq9.jpg

Innis Cabal

2011-04-12, 09:10 PM

This is perhaps the best I've ever heard it put. Thanks, Innis.

Much obliged.

Trog

2011-04-12, 09:56 PM

As to art and things being deep or not, I feel that it largely depends on the beholder's opinion on what the art means. Though whether or not a piece of art is deep is not entirely subjective. Let me explain.

For example, someone paints a painting and the things in the painting have a certain meaning to the artist. But others come and, not knowing the artist's true intent, make their own interpretation. If a lot of people do this and come up with different opinions and debate over them the art is generally considered to have some depth to it because it sparks controversy.

Another person might look at that same piece of art and have the very same interpretation as the artist and consider the art to have little to no depth. Or they may not have much exposure to the artform and the depth may be lost on them. For example I could listen to a piece of classical music and could enjoy it but not have a very decent, informed opinion on it because I'm not that into that sort of music. Whereas a composer could greatly appreciate the complexity and depth and originality of the piece being themselves well-informed of the art form. The original composer could include subtleties that I as a lay listener would miss entirely and thus the depth would be lost on me.

The trick to making something with depth usually seems to be combining different ideas in new ways that render an obvious explanation impossible at first glance. This gets people speculating and talking.

Shock also gets people talking but its staying power can be considerably less. Anyone can be shocked and thus it appeals to the widest possible audience. And it's shock value will fade over time as the things that it did become rather tame compared to the next person who shocks people in an art form.

So many people can interpret a piece of art differently if it's a bit cryptic and unusual but it is the degree to which those subjective opinions are debated which give a broader picture of the piece of art's overall depth. If the artist tells his/her intent or meaning right away it stifles the debate. And if the arguments die down the art becomes a bit old and its depth may be lost in time or dulled down by academic explanations.

The real point of art (from an audience standpoint) is to see in it your own depth... not the piece's. For, ultimately, your interpretations say more about you than they say about the piece.

JonestheSpy

2011-04-12, 11:01 PM

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG... :smalltongue:

Rah rah ah-ah-ah!
Ro mah ro-mah-mah baby!

Ursus the Grim

2011-04-12, 11:01 PM

This is weird. I have nothing to say. This is very confusing.
No argument there. This is one of the few anime I've felt multiple movies and a remake actually helped to explain. In fact, the only one I've had to watch more in order to understand was FLCL.

But AT shields depend on mental stability. And you dont need to throw anybody away. Just say "Thanks for saving the earth, il be taking that pleese".

The Evangelion's AT field is generated by the human soul trapped within it. The pilot is chosen to match the trapped soul, IE Shinji got Unit 01 because his mother's soul was installed in it. This creates a bond between the two (the 'sync ratio'). If that bond gets too strong (as seen in one episode), the AT field between pilot and EVA breaks down, and the pilot is absorbed. I believe that the pilot's mental stability really can't be picked, as the soul is already bound to the EVA, and another pilot wouldn't get the same reaction. We see what happens when a pilot changes. Alternatively, an unstable pilot could possibly draw out more emotion and power from the EVA. The EVAs possess an ability to neutralize the Angel's AT field with their own, especially when berserk. This too, could be linked to mental instability. Seele's plan was to implement human instrumentality. This required an Angel to bond with Lilith and break down everyone's AT field, causing them to physically and mentally merge with one another, as happened at the end of Death & Rebirth. I think its considered throwing someone away if you plan for them to lose physical form and any sense of self.

Avilan the Grey

2011-04-13, 12:27 PM

Aww... flashbacks of my own highschool years... :smallbiggrin:

Hey, we were so starved for good Sci-Fi that at least all boys in my class knew about the movie.

Gaius Marius

2011-04-13, 12:34 PM

Hey, we were so starved for good Sci-Fi that at least all boys in my class knew about the movie.

Come on, you still had Asimov, Star Wars and other such stuff to keep your imagination buzzling, no?

TheArsenal

2011-04-13, 02:54 PM

The Evangelion's AT field is generated by the human soul trapped within it. The pilot is chosen to match the trapped soul, IE Shinji got Unit 01 because his mother's soul was installed in it. This creates a bond between the two (the 'sync ratio'). If that bond gets too strong (as seen in one episode), the AT field between pilot and EVA breaks down, and the pilot is absorbed. I believe that the pilot's mental stability really can't be picked, as the soul is already bound to the EVA, and another pilot wouldn't get the same reaction. We see what happens when a pilot changes. Alternatively, an unstable pilot could possibly draw out more emotion and power from the EVA. The EVAs possess an ability to neutralize the Angel's AT field with their own, especially when berserk. This too, could be linked to mental instability. Seele's plan was to implement human instrumentality. This required an Angel to bond with Lilith and break down everyone's AT field, causing them to physically and mentally merge with one another, as happened at the end of Death & Rebirth. I think its considered throwing someone away if you plan for them to lose physical form and any sense of self.

This is just making me laugh :smallsmile:. Seriously. Its sort of like finding out that a secret organization is secretly controlled by a yodeling pickle. Its just so silly I have no idea what is the point anyway. Anyway I wont even bother trying to point out flaws in this stuff. Say that im "Backing down" or "You just cannot admit your wrong". I just realized that I just created a flame war. I didn't want that.

AT fields are your soul, but also represent the hedgehog philosophy, but it also holds our bodies together...But apparently we are made by a alien bleeding primordial ooze, and our minds...something.

Edit: Essentially, I don't think you have a clue what your saying. When you make a point, please create some form of validity to support your claims.

I mentioned that I used the wrong term: Post modernism (Or Postmodern existentialism whatever you call it).

Anyway I think I got what the show was trying to say...I think....
If your a coward just do not be a coward and you will not be a coward.

SPoD

2011-04-13, 03:09 PM

I did not read the whole thread, so apologies if anyone mentioned this.

But I felt the need to point out that the "boring" docking scene in 2001 was the first time a scientifically-plausible version of a space station was committed to film, ever. Before that, it was all Flash Gordon and Forbidden Planet and such, and the stuff in 2001 was created by Arthur C. Clarke, an actual scientist. Showing the viewing public what the future might really look like, instead of a ridiculous B-movie space opera, was worth a few minutes of screen time.

The fact that we are all now blasé about it says more about us than it does about Kubrick.

Lurkmoar

2011-04-13, 03:21 PM

TheArsenal

2011-04-13, 05:13 PM

But I felt the need to point out that the "boring" docking scene in 2001 was the first time a scientifically-plausible version of a space station was committed to film, ever.

Point is? Its still boring. Why not just cut the scenes out of the movie? Walking is the most realistic walking there is in a movie. So lets have allot of walking then. :smalltongue:

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-13, 05:27 PM

Point is? Its still boring. Why not just cut the scenes out of the movie? Walking is the most realistic walking there is in a movie. So lets have allot of walking then. :smalltongue:

Wasn't boring for 'em back then, you see. :smallamused:

Gaius Marius

2011-04-13, 05:44 PM

Wasn't boring for 'em back then, you see. :smallamused:

While I appreciate Clark's contribution in realistic depiction of futuristic technology, now it ain't so new. The movie just plain hasn't aged well, period. It's long and boring at time. I have more fun looking at Discovery Channel's documentary about said technologies.

Sarco_Phage

2011-04-13, 05:52 PM

While I appreciate Clark's contribution in realistic depiction of futuristic technology, now it ain't so new. The movie just plain hasn't aged well, period. It's long and boring at time. I have more fun looking at Discovery Channel's documentary about said technologies.

Yep. That's why all things require context. Technical marvels now are going to be meh in the future.

Or you could just, you know, have a 2 hour long movie about blowing **** up. I like those.

Moff Chumley

2011-04-13, 07:48 PM

To watch 2001 without being fully aware of the cultural context is to miss the point completely, in a nutshell.

Serpentine

2011-04-14, 02:41 AM

I would call 2001 "contemplative", rather than "slow". I think, maybe, it's a movie for sitting back and thinking about, rather than, per se, being entertained by it. Or something like that?

And - having not read this thread at all, pretty much - I like Lady Gaga. Not so much most of her music - there's maybe 2 or 3 songs I genuinely like - but rather everything else. I think her video clips are works of art, I think her costumes are brilliant and (deliberately) hilarious (why does everyone hate her costumes so much? Should she be wearing a cream-squirting bra or a boring slinky dress or a shapeless smock instead, or what?), and I think that she, as a person, is a genuinely good person.
I'm not sure what is meant by "selling out". She makes money from her work, yes, of course. Should she not? I believe she is a savvy businesswoman, who - perhaps unlike many other popstars - is very much in control of everything she does - including, most unusually, all of her music, and most especially her image, down to the smallest detail. I also believe that she is openly mocking her industry and all its shallowness and ridiculousness, from the inside. And, finally, she is using her position to do genuinely good things in society, most notably in LGBT issues.
So... yeah. I kinda think that to disparage Lady Gaga for her "razzle dazzle art" is like complaining about how Terry Pratchett uses fantasy tropes or to hate Salvador Dali for being egotistical. It's kinda the point.