Dragonpacts and gishes?

[AngelisBlack]

Two of my players want to try Dragonpacts [mentioned in Dragon Magic], but I'm unsure about allowing it in my games. I like dragon themed things, but I'm not sure if dragonpacts are an appropriately balanced option. I wonder what the general opinion is about them and if I'm just worrying over nothing?

One player is a Stalwart Sorcerer 6, planning on going for Abjurant Champion after a level of fighter and spellsword. The other player is a debuffer type normal sorcerer. Assuming I allow dragonpacts, they both want a customized pact. The Gish wants to seek a pact with a good aligned dragon type and the other one wanted a planar one or one based on one of the epic dragons. I have no clue what to give them at all, and I would really really appreciate help here.

[Cog]

I've never seen them in use, but they look fair to me; comparable to a Reserve feat, with a little more variety as the cost of not lasting all day and not being able to use the fueling slot when things get desperate.

There's a pattern to the spell level traded and what levels of SLAs it gives in return. The spells seem to be useful but not awesome - Charm, Obscuring Mist, that sort of thing. Keep that in mind; you shouldn't get stuff like Polymorph or Divine Power out of it.

[AngelisBlack]

I've never seen them in use, but they look fair to me; comparable to a Reserve feat, with a little more variety as the cost of not lasting all day and not being able to use the fueling slot when things get desperate.

There's a pattern to the spell level traded and what levels of SLAs it gives in return. The spells seem to be useful but not awesome - Charm, Obscuring Mist, that sort of thing. Keep that in mind; you shouldn't get stuff like Polymorph or Divine Power out of it.

Its a good thing you mentioned Divine Power, because that is exactly what the Gish player was asking for as part of the custom pact. I'll definitely keep it in mind, although I bet he'll be disappointed with not getting it.

[MeeposFire]

The pacts tend to be thematically tied to the dragons they apply to (for instance red dragons tend to give pacts that give spells that they can cast as spell like abilities and fire). A person that wants to make a custom pack should pick a real fragon type and build it from the spell likes that dragon has and what is thematic for that dragon. You should make sure it stays that way. A pact with all the spells a player wants with no thematic or dragon based reasons should not be accepted.

[Veyr]

Eh, for a gish who is already spending class levels maintaining a good BAB (Abjurant Champion, Spellsword, etc), Divine Power isn't so powerful. The main problem with Divine Power is when the 0.5 BAB, d6 HD Cloistered Cleric suddenly gets DMM Persisted Divine Power and gains +10 BAB, +6 Str, and 20 HP all day long. An SLA of Divine Power can't be persisted, and the Sorcerer should already have decent BAB so he's only gaining +2 or +3 BAB anyway, which is much less of a big deal.

[AngelisBlack]

My player and I worked together on this after denying his Divine Power. He wants to try a force dragon pact. Here is what we have so far:

1st SLA: Ghostly Tail
2nd SLA: Wings of Cover or Tail Slap
3rd SLA: Manyjaws or Resilient Sphere or Tail Sweep or Displacement [can't decide]
4th SLA: Wall of Force [Couldn't find anything else that fit the theme]
5th SLA: Forcecage [Very very unsure about this]

Does this look reasonable and does all of this look like it fits a singular theme? Also if there are any suggestions or additions it would also be good.

[Veyr]

Isn't Wings of Flurry a 4th level spell? It's [Force] and distinctly draconic-flavored...

[MeeposFire]

Mage armor or shield could be appropriate as well. Variations of those too. Otilukes sphere or perhaps disintegrate.

[Veyr]

If he's already got Mage Armor and Shield, perhaps a Dragonscale Abjuration that gives +4 Natural Armor, to complete trifecta? Granted, +12 AC may be quite a bit, but if it were only Rounds/Level, he'd have to cast it in combat (which, along with Shield, would mean a two round prep time to actually get that +12 AC).

[MeeposFire]

Isn't there already a spell based around force scales?

[Greenish]

Isn't there already a spell based around force scales?Scintillating Scales, printed in Dragonomicon, updated in Spell Compendium. Turns NA into Deflection bonus.

[AngelisBlack]

As a gish he already has Shield as a spell known, and needs it for Abjurant Champion. He also already has real armor. As for wings of flurry, while it fits the theme its also the same level as tail sweep and such. I'm trying to follow the advice earlier about useful but not awesome. After a bit more work here is what I've got for my gish:

1st SLA: Ghost Tail
2nd SLA: Wings of Cover
3rd SLA: Tail Sweep
4th SLA: Wall of Force
5th SLA: Forcecage

The other player chose a battle dragon for some reason and I'm at a complete loss. With him this is what I've got:

1st SLA: Protection from Evil
2nd SLA: Aid
3rd SLA: ?

[faceroll]

For the battle dragon, give stuff like blade barrier, cloudkill, and other big, flashy battlefield effects.

[Runestar]

Seems quite strong. Many of the spells have obvious combat applications, so this seems like a significant boost to his firepower.

Why is forcecage a 5th lv spell here? :smallconfused:

[AngelisBlack]

Seems quite strong. Many of the spells have obvious combat applications, so this seems like a significant boost to his firepower.

Why is forcecage a 5th lv spell here? :smallconfused:

Its not a 5th level spell, its his fifth SLA that he gets. Dragonpacts give you SLAs depending on which slot you sacrifice for it. Its mentioned in Dragon Magic P87. For a quick rundown though Sacrificing higher level spell slots gets you access to more uses of your SLAs up to 3/day and more SLAs. For example Sacrificing a 4th level spell slot gives you the 1st and 2nd SLAs while sacrificing a 7th level gets you your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th SLAs from the pact.

[MeeposFire]

Do you use material components with spells? If you do you may not want to just give out spells with expensive material components like candy such as force cage. If you do not then don't worry about that.

[AngelisBlack]

Do you use material components with spells? If you do you may not want to just give out spells with expensive material components like candy such as force cage. If you do not then don't worry about that.

I do enforce material components for spells and I completely forgot about the material cost of that particular one. Although to get the 5th SLA they have to sacrifice a 9th level spell slot, and they only have it once per day. Would it still be kinda unbalanced? If so, which other spell can I replace it with?

[MeeposFire]

It is not necessarily unbalanced but you should check to make sure that they don't just pick spells that have costly components (material and XP are the big ones). Right now it looks like you are fine but you should keep an eye out for that stuff.