What if: The battle for azure city

[Lord]

Hi everyone.
I was just rereading the comic the other day and right around the beginning of the battle for azure city, I came up with a what if scenario.

There is a point where Redcloak and Xykon are unable to scry on Hinjo and Roys conversation regarding the Azure city gates location, due to the throne room being protected with anti scrying fields that Xykon could not bypass. However they are able to eavesdrop by listening just outside the door. Now my question is, what exactly would the battle for azure city have been like if Redcloak and Xykon had not heard the gates location, and thus would have to search for it.

Another scenario that comes to mind, is what if Belkar had never given Roy his ring of jumping.

In either of these scenarios would the battle turn out the same, better or worse.

What do you think.

[smasher0404]

First this is all speculative.
Well, In your second scenario Roy obviously might not have died, however the gate is pretty much a goner.

And in your first, Xykon was riding on a zombie dragon, he could just fly around the towers and wipe out any defenders in his way. However the Ghost Matyrs would have clobbered Xykon before Miko got free and messed everything up. While Azure City would have lost the battle Xykon and Redcloak would have been obliterated.

[NegativeFifteen]

First this is all speculative.
Well, In your second scenario Roy obviously might not have died, however the gate is pretty much a goner.


How is the gate a goner? Sure, with Xykon being outside, the Azure forces would have been decimated much faster, but the Sapphire Guard and Soon Kim were still there, which proved to be more than Xykon and Redcloak to handle.

[TheSummoner]

My speculation on the matter...

What if Xykon and Redcloak didn't know the location of the gate and had to search for it?

They couldn't have gone straight for the gate when the chance presented itself. Redcloak wouldn't have charged the wall with the full army. The Azurite defenders would not have abandoned their positions. They likely would've still been overwhelmed eventually and casualties would likely be higher on both sides.

Xykon still would've rode the dragon, invisible, picking off defenders from the skies until the Order saw him and Roy went after him. Roy vs Xykon would've played out the same, but afterwards, Xykon would continue raining death from above (heavily contributing to Azurite casualties and eventual Hobgoblin victory - victory for the city, not necessarily the gate).

Miko would've broken out, but since the gate was not yet in danger, she would not have destroyed it... She probably would've joined the battle and either died in combat or somehow be dragged away against her will once the battle turned against them.

Eventually Xykon, Redcloak and the Hobgoblins take the city. Without the immediate threat of the Order and Azurites to worry about, they would be able to heal to full and go after the gate together. O'Chul and the Sapphire Guard would likely still be there (I really can't see them abandoning... They knew they were likely to die when the battle started), and the Ghost Martyrs would still be a factor. This time, however, Redcloak would be there from the start and the Ghost Martyrs would go down faster. Soon would be the only one to last and Xykon and Redcloak would have taken less damage taking care of the rest. They would stand a much better chance against him, though that doesn't guarantee their victory...

It is also likely that Tsukiko would not have joined team evil since she only encountered Xykon on his trip to the throne room. More likely, she would've died/fled during the battle.

What if Roy hadn't borrowed the ring of jumping and fought Xykon?

Xykon would've continued picking off defenders from the sky before heading to the Throne Room. Knowing his destination, the Order would likely head straight for him to help the Sapphire Guard. Xykon will still slaughter the lot of them with the bouncy ball, and the Order will not arrive until after the Ghost Martyrs rise. Xykon is defeated and his body destroyed, but Redcloak is not present so his Phylactery is safe.

Since the Order went to fight in the throne room, the Death Knight wipes out a good portion of the defenders... More than what actually happened since V isn't there to distract him and get rid of his mount and Roy isn't able to decapitate Xykon's dragon at the exact right time for the head to crush the Death Knight.

Hinjo is as good as dead since Durkon isn't around to save him. The Hecuva survives as well and probably does as much damage to the defenses at his part of the wall as the Death Knight.

Belkar isn't around either (so actually, that prisoner who tried to poison Hinjo may have succeeded, killing off Hinjo even sooner). No Sexy Shoeless God of War, Eye of Fear and Flame survives, but probably doesn't contribute much since hes a coward.

Azurite defenses crumble even faster, and the Order is forced to retreat against the overwhelming odds. It is possible that the threat is stopped once and for all if Redcloak attempts to secure the gate before waiting for Xykon to regenerate. He doesn't stand a chance against the Ghost Martyrs, Soon specifically.

Miko would not arrive until after Xykon had been defeated. Hopefully Soon would be able to talk some sence into her. Even if not, we know she isn't a match for the Order without her Paladin powers.

[Swordpriest]

Well, the forces of evil won on the basis of two really contrived circumstances:

1. Miko.

2. The complete immunity of hobgoblin soldiers to fear and their willingness to die suicidally for commanders they've known for a few weeks.

Take these two "diabolus ex machina" advantages away, and Xykon and Redcloak would have died in the throne room fight, and the hobgoblin soldiers would have fallen back from the walls rather than be butchered in endless, ant-like numbers. But of course, the bad guys had to win, so they got a couple of "get out of jail free" cards that by rights they should have had to work around, rather than being handed a free pass on a platter.

[TheSummoner]

Well, the forces of evil won on the basis of two really contrived circumstances:

1. Miko.

2. The complete immunity of hobgoblin soldiers to fear and their willingness to die suicidally for commanders they've known for a few weeks.

Take these two "diabolus ex machina" advantages away, and Xykon and Redcloak would have died in the throne room fight, and the hobgoblin soldiers would have fallen back from the walls rather than be butchered in endless, ant-like numbers. But of course, the bad guys had to win, so they got a couple of "get out of jail free" cards that by rights they should have had to work around, rather than being handed a free pass on a platter.

And without explaining how either of the scenerios presented would affect the actions taken by Miko or the Hobgoblin soldiers and their lemming-like morale, there is absolutly no point in bringing either of them up.

Unless you give reason why either scenerio would change their actions, they would've done the exact same thing with the exact same outcome.

[t209]

What if:
1) Azure city guards were supported by Warlords and have Commissar policies (kill the traitors and cowards)!

[Gift Jeraff]

What if Redcloak would have allowed Tsukiko to join him? The castle wouldn't have received the damage from Tsukiko's shout spell, which means Miko and the Linear Guild may have not escaped. However, it may also mean that they could have defeated Soon with the extra firepower (though I'm not so sure about that).

[Red XIV]

Tsukiko's not weak, but I don't think she's strong enough to matter in a fight against somebody as powerful as Soon. Remember, he didn't just beat Xykon and Redcloak, he trounced them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).

[t209]

Here's one thing:
What if Lord Shojo wasn't murdered? Will they win the battle?
With Shojo, The aristocrats stay quiet.
Without Shojo, they planned to kill Hinjo (except the Katos)!

[Gift Jeraff]

Tsukiko's not weak, but I don't think she's strong enough to matter in a fight against somebody as powerful as Soon. Remember, he didn't just beat Xykon and Redcloak, he trounced them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).
But Xykon and Redcloak were running out of spells, and spells per day is one of Tsukiko's strong points. Plus, as an evil cleric, she had spontaneous negative energy (good for healing Xykon and harming Soon) and could turn the ghost-martyrs.

Though I agree, they still would have probably lost.

[Prowl]

The to-the-death dedication of the hobgoblins was established as a cultural trait before we even "met" them:

"All efficiency, and warrior's codes, and sense of duty, with their military this and their discipline that... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)

[Asta Kask]

What if a giant rabid space hamster had turned up and devoured troops at random?

[Sarco_Phage]

What if a giant rabid space hamster had turned up and devoured troops at random?

Considering what else was being tossed around during that battle, I doubt anyone would have noticed.

[King of Nowhere]

Xykon is so strong that he was the deciusive factor of the battle. No matter how many hobbos the azurites can kill, Xykon can still kill them all. The whole azure city don't have anyone over level 15, except miko, who would have tried to kill the oots if she was freed. And of course soon, but he was bound to the throne room.
The good guys had a chance of winning just because
1) Redcloak was sending his troops mostly on sucide missions
2) Xykon and his phylactery managed to be in the only place where soon could hurt them, and both of them are low on spells.

If Xykon dies in the throne room but redcloak is not there, Xykon regenerates.
If redcloak dies there, but not xykon, Xykon can get his body (he was able tu survive in the room for several rounds at least) and find a cleric to resurrect him.

So, without the information on the location of the gate, tema evil would have just won the war, then find the location of the gate, then destroied the defenders one by one.
If roy had not jumped on the dragon, he would have probably tried to confront Xykon on the ground. So he would have died. He would have probably costed Xykon an extra meteor swarm, but he wouldn't have caused the destruction of the zombie dragon.
Oh, and V would have been killed by the death knigth.

[Sarco_Phage]

Yeah, let's take a look at the forces Azure City and Team Evil brought to the table.

TE:

HQ
1x Xykon, Lich Sorcerer (Epic+++)
- Riding an Undead Ancient Silver Dragon
1x Redcloak, Goblin Cleric (High-Level)
1x Hobgoblin General
1x Death Knight (Presumably high-mid level)
- Riding Skeletal Mount
1x Huecuva (Presumably high-mid level)
1x Eye of Fear and Flame

Troops
?x Goblin Clerics (5th level+, capable of casting Animate Dead )
Hobgoblin Soldiers, at least 3x Azure City's number
Siege Engines firing Titanium Elementals
Innumerable undead

AC: (doesn't count the Paladins at the Gate)

HQ

1x Lord Hinjo (mid-high level)
1x Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger (all high-level)
1x General Chang (mid level [?])
1x High Priest of the Twelve Gods
1x Diviner

also,

1x Mystic Theurge
1x Assassin

Troops:
Paladins attached to each squad at the walls (low-level)
Low-level clerics appended to each squad, performing healbot duties
Small fraction of 5th level troops and higher

[ScottishDragon]

I think if Belkar didn't give Roy his ring of jumping he would instead have killed Miko,fufilling his prophersy,then Redcloak would have completed the ritual and the dark one would rule the world. I'm happy Roy died. :smallsmile:

[Sarco_Phage]

If Roy could floor Belkar with a single hit, I'm fairly sure Miko can.

[ScottishDragon]

If Roy could floor Belkar with a single hit, I'm fairly sure Miko can.

Hey,it's called a nat 20,in a comic,anythings possible.Maybe Xykon brough her hitpoints down or something. Then again,the oracles prophesy might have been fufilled early:smallwink:.

[smasher0404]

How is the gate a goner? Sure, with Xykon being outside, the Azure forces would have been decimated much faster, but the Sapphire Guard and Soon Kim were still there, which proved to be more than Xykon and Redcloak to handle.
Yes but Xykon would not have abandoned the zombie dragon, which even if it couldn't attack the ghost matyrs makes an excellent meat shield to buy Xykon time to destroy the matyrs and the tower might not have crumbled freeing Miko from her cell because Tsukiko wouldn't have casted Shout because Xykon didn't recruit her. Xykon, now with a meat shield, has time to follow through on the original plan.

[t209]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html
What if the Commisar or Commisar esque D&D Warlord saw this?
What if they were armed with muskets?

[Sarco_Phage]

Their commissar equivalent was killed by the death knight, buddy.

[factotum]

I think the only thing that would have changed is Xykon's attempt to go straight for the tower, which might well have meant Tsukiko didn't get a chance to switch sides. The actual battle would probably still have happened in a similar way--heck, Xykon might well still have flew over the city on his dragon simply to rain down some death from above!

[Sarco_Phage]

His resources could have been soaked up on the low-level threats, making a party of adventurers a viable threat to him and Redcloak. Granted they brought some scary as hell "command" units to the table (we don't know how Redcloak's General Guy fights, but the three undead ones were pretty effective personally).