Core Damage Output

[Tvtyrant]

Does anyone know what the average or acceptable core damage output is at each level? It would be helpful :D

[NichG]

This is a highly optimization-dependent question. You could back it out by saying 'take the average hitpoints of monsters of each CR, and assume that that monster will survive two rounds against a party of four characters', but that will probably end up being very low.

Here's a rough calculation for low to medium optimization. For a low-op group, consider the canonical damage dealers and assume one support character out of the 4 that will not do damage in a given fight:

- Blaster wizard. Does roughly 1d6 damage per level per round. Multiple targets makes this bigger, but saves and conserving slots make this slower. So 70 damage a round at 20th level, and 4 damage a round at 1st level. In a high-op group, the sky is the limit with stacking metamagic reducers, but a high-op wizard won't need to bother with damage.

- Stabbity rogue. Probably 1/4 of his max possible attacks hit and deal sneak attack damage due to lower BAB and needing to move to set up flank, and assume he's TWF-ing, so this is something like 70 damage a round at 20th level. A high-op version of this might be doing irresistable strength damage or other non-damage things, or might be using all sorts of other tricks to boost sneak attack or trade sneak attack for other effects.

- 2-hand barbarian. Assume 20 Str while raging at 1st level, +1 every 2 levels for items and level-based stat ups (which would end up being something like a +6 Str boost item and 4 stat ups from levels by level 20). Power attack can add a lot, but depends on the player knowing how to use it. Assuming half of his attacks hit when he half-power-attacks, this is something like (5 from weapon+15 from Strength+7 from dice+20 power attack)*2 on a full attack, which is about 90 damage a round. Can vary significantly based on AC of the target though. The high-op version can far far far exceeding this - Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Pounce with a Valiant weapon, better rage, size buffs, etc. The sky is the limit (or at least, its somewhere in the 10k/round range).

A DMM Cleric or a Druid will have damage output that exceeds most of these.

Edit: Sorry, didn't notice the Core part. That will shut down a number of the high-op comments I made, but the DMM Cleric or Druid will still get pretty big numbers even in core-only.

[Greenish]

Edit: Sorry, didn't notice the Core part. That will shut down a number of the high-op comments I made, but the DMM Cleric or Druid will still get pretty big numbers even in core-only.Core-only DMM Cleric? :smallamused:

[Tvtyrant]

Thank you for the estimates! That puts a blaster roughly equal to a rogue and behind a melee unit.

Though 70 damage for a level 20 blaster seems kinda... low. A Wizard 15/Archmage 5 with Mastery of Elements could simply Quicken Empower a scorching ray and cast Meteor Swarm to get around 150 :smallconfused: I guess you would run out of 9th level slots quickly that way and it would drop once you were out.

[MeeposFire]

Once I have heard is essentially you would like a monster to last 4 rounds against one PC at equal CR. This is hard to do since there are so many variances to stats on even CR monsters.

[Tvtyrant]

Once I have heard is essentially you would like a monster to last 4 rounds against one PC at equal CR. This is hard to do since there are so many variances to stats on even CR monsters.

Sounds like it would almost be a good idea to create a tier based CR system where monsters are given a different CR based on the tier of their opponents.

[MeeposFire]

you could try something like that but that would be a huge project. Though a very useful one.

[NichG]

Thank you for the estimates! That puts a blaster roughly equal to a rogue and behind a melee unit.

Though 70 damage for a level 20 blaster seems kinda... low. A Wizard 15/Archmage 5 with Mastery of Elements could simply Quicken Empower a scorching ray and cast Meteor Swarm to get around 150 :smallconfused: I guess you would run out of 9th level slots quickly that way and it would drop once you were out.

Well I did say low optimization. Mid optimization you do boost that somewhat. Other things you can do for reference (single target):

- Max Emp Scorching Ray (Lv7 slot or rod) for 108 damage (depending how you run Max + Emp)
- Emp. Disintegrate (Lv 8 slot or rod) for 210 damage on failed save
- Quickened whatever (via the rod) to double this 3x a day, or at least to add to damage

Pearls of power mean you can keep this up for awhile if you have wealth.

However, once you start getting into the mid optimization or high optimization range, you start to get wizards who do things like Gate, Polymorph Any Object, etc instead of just raw damage output, and its impossible to really calculate what the damage output of those options is.

[Tvtyrant]

Oh Tier 1s, how you grate (things). Yeah, SoDs make damage redundant.

So the assumption for low optimization is at least 300 HP for a CR 20 to be able to stay in the fight?

[MeeposFire]

It is not just SoD it is also things like gating in a couple celestial gold dragons. How do you deal with this sort of thing when you compare to a warrior type?

[faceroll]

The highest damage output in core would probably be a druid shapechanged into a Titan wielding a lance while mounted on a animal growth'd T-Rex animal companion.

[NichG]

Oh Tier 1s, how you grate (things). Yeah, SoDs make damage redundant.

So the assumption for low optimization is at least 300 HP for a CR 20 to be able to stay in the fight?

If we think about this in terms of PC-rounds, 300hp is about 5 PC-rounds at level 20 (70 damage a round output). That means that a party of four characters at or around its level will probably kill it in a little over one round. Two rounds if some of the party is being primarily support. I wouldn't use this creature as a solo encounter for that party - instead I'd use a handful of slightly lower CR things.

If this is a big bad for a group of four level 15 PCs, with a damage output of about 50 a round, 300hp is 6 PC-rounds worth of attacks, which means it'll survive about two to three rounds. I'd probably try to bump up the hp a little, but it could be an interesting solo fight. Unless it has very extensive entire-party attacks, action denial like paralysis, or really harsh save or dies like Blasphemy or Wail of the Banshee, there's basically no chance of a TPK, but one or two PCs could drop.

Of course, if the thing has very potent defenses compared to the party's abilities, it will last much longer. A golem for instance probably doubles or even triples these numbers due to magic immunity shutting down a core wizard and sneak attack immunity shutting down a core rogue.

[Runestar]

A caster wouldn't be doing any damage at all. He would be locking down the opponents and leaving the damage-dealing to the fighters.:smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

Lessee... a Raging Orc Barbarian, who put all his bonuses into strength, with max strength, mounted, with full power attack, two handing a magic lance and some strength improving items, and charging while riding a beast of some sort, with spirited charge.

How much damage does that one single hit do at level 10? 15? 20?

[Eldariel]

The highest damage output in core would probably be a druid shapechanged into a Titan wielding a lance while mounted on a animal growth'd T-Rex animal companion.

Pretty high up there; you'd still mass buff the Druid with buffs from Cleric-list through UMD, I'd assume, and some choice magic items. And, of course, stack all native stat increases. You could also Gate a something Gargantuan and Righteous Might it to ride after Shapechanging into something Gargantuan (couldn't find any Gargantuan that could wield a Lance on a quick look so you might have to settle for Huge after all though). May be more convenient to just use a base Cleric now that I think of it; they have Gate on their list, along with all the buffs and Animal-domain for Shapechange, after all.

Highest base strength before buffs you could acquire is, I think, on Nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) (48) but as those things are basically Purple Wurms on Steroids, they don't really lend themselves well to wielding weapons.


Lessee... a Raging Orc Barbarian, who put all his bonuses into strength, with max strength, mounted, with full power attack, two handing a magic lance and some strength improving items, and charging while riding a beast of some sort, with spirited charge.

How much damage does that one single hit do at level 10? 15? 20?

You can get around 300 on level 20 with a nice buff stack (basically all 10 min/level and longer duration buffs on you active) and magic items, without Polymorph. I've done the math in some thread long ago; I can try to possibly dig it up if thread purges and such haven't eaten it. With Polymorph...I didn't bother doing the math. Raging Orc Barbarian deals slightly more damage while Orc Barbarian/Dragon Disciple has slightly higher To Hit (and does more damage at equal To Hit). So, pick your poison. Note that you can get to +30s with Power Attack for full and no True Strike; quite convenient.