Noob tube

[Traab]

Anyone who has played a call of duty or other fps type game has probably come across this term. People HATE exploding weapons for some reason. They are looked down on as cheap weapons, or noob only weapons. My question is, why? Why is the grenade launcher/rocket launcher looked down upon with such disdain? It has so many weaknesses and downsides that its actually a challenge to use it well. Certainly harder than your standard run and gun submachine gun or assault rifle.

1) Limited ammo. In medal of honor, the bazooka would have 5 shots max, assuming whoever setup the map didnt disable it, or limit the ammo even further or something. In call of duty modern warfare we get a grenade launcher attachment that has two whole shots. Thats two shots we get to kill people with before its back to spray and pray with our bullets.

2) Range issues. In medal of honor, the bazooka shoots in a spiral at long ranges, making it insanely hard to hit a moving target. Or even a stationary one for that matter. So its basically worthless at long ranges. Further, most of the time these explosive weapons are a suicide technique at CLOSE range because the explosion will generally hit you too! "Congrats, you killed the enemy! Too bad you died too."

3) Reload time. Not only is it a single shot, its generally a several second reload time in between rounds. If you miss, or otherwise fail to kill the target, he has 3-5 seconds of time for free shots on you as you slowly shove another grenade into the tube.

4) Aiming. The grenade launcher has to be shot in an arc to hit anyone more than a few yards away. Thats a fricking pain. And the further the shot, the easier it is to miss because it takes TIME to reach the target. Same for the bazooka, though thats generally a straight shot, barring long distances, it still takes time to reach the spot you aimed at.

All that said, thats why I LIKE the rocket launcher type weapons! They are HARD to use effectively. And yes, I do enjoy every once in awhile managing to nail a room full of people stuck in tight quarters, but thats fairly rare to pull off. I am playing with a handicap by using the rockets, so its only fair that I get the chance to take down more than one target at a time if they bunch up together. I certainly dont spend my time whining about say, sniper teams that have every road covered and insta gib you upon spawning, so leave my grenade launcher alone!

[littlebottom]

ive been playing Crysis 2, and i think (in that atleast) explosive weapons are fine. annoying beyond belief at times though.

my only problem with them, is if i turn the corner to happen to see someone and start firing at them, they panic and press the fire and i die. its too easy to kill in that situation, (as long as they are not right infront of you) otherwise yes, from a distance i accept that maybe the aim doesnt have to be as pinpoint as a sniper rifle or generally spot on as an assault rifle, but you are normally aiming up and judging distance as well, so it does make it a bit harder.

overall, explosives = fun

that said, as a bonus, i will tell you about a time a long while ago. I used to play 007 nightfire, in that you could have different weapon sets that would spawn throughout the levels, the MOST FUN you could have was by making only explosives spawn, trip wires, guided missiles, unguided missiles, and grenades and so on. it was much more fun than running and gunning is now-a-days.

[psilontech]

"There's probably people in that general direction."

*PA-THUNK*

*Kill*

trollface.jpg

[ninja_penguin]

"There's probably people in that general direction."

*PA-THUNK*

*Kill*

trollface.jpg

Exchange *PA-THUNK* with *GRENADE* and you have my strategy for when my friends would make me play halo. Worked stupidly well, mostly because I was blind throwing grenades, so their INNATE MAP MASTERY wasn't telling them they were in a grenading zone.

[warty goblin]

Three words: Area of Effect.

Used properly, which is to say at intermediate ranges, aiming is made easier because hitting somewhere near the target is sufficient. In fact I suspect in most games it's easier to get kills with them when you deliberately aim to miss, and instead go for the ground under, or the wall behind, your intended victim.

In fact, it's pretty easy to deduce that there's probably a range bracket where for a sufficiently accurate grenadier, the target simply cannot escape. As long as the distance they can travel before the round reaches their current location is less than the kill radius of the explosion, survival is a matter of operator failure instead of skillful play on the part of the player being attacked. I at least find my FPS deaths feel less cheap when it's because I made a legitimate mistake (and importantly, could have avoided), instead of happening to be within some distance of a bloke with a grenade.

That said, I really wish they'd start putting sights that didn't suck on M203s in games. Damn things are always useless, just like the rangefinders in sniper scopes.

[Partof1]

It is frustraing to deal with, as it's a one hit kill generally, and relatively easy to use at midrange.

Another thing is that the ammo is a huge drawback, so better players shy away from it. Less experienced players don't, and they get killed frequently, allowing many shots to be taken with grenades upon respawning.

[Traab]

My personal favorite bazooka story was with medal of honor, an old version. I got stuck with an omaha beach map. Those who dont know it, its a map of the opening scene of saving private ryan, where one team starts on the shore line, the other tends to start up near the bunkers. Its a blood bath for the shore team as the others always go full sniper mode and insta gib you upon respawning. There is no real cover for the beach team. Anyways, I pop up with my bazooka, take aim and fire. The shell is travelling in a HUGE spiral through the air, its flies for at least 5-8 seconds before BLAMMO! It hits perfectly on the slit the snipers are firing from, killing 5 of them instantly. They spent so much time griping in chat about hacks, (It wasnt, just pure luck lol) that we were able to get off the beach and turn things around. It was freaking glorious.

And yeah, I admit that the mutual kill thing where the bazooka guy blows himself and you up is corny and annoying, but honestly, most of the games I play now, you tend to die so fast from the bullet spray it might as well be a one shot kill. So aside from the aoe damage bonus, which imo is offset by the slow reload and limited ammo, its not any better than a guy running up to you dual wielding mp5s in call of duty modern warfare 2 and perforating you instantly.

[tyckspoon]

"Shoot feet. Get kills." I think that's at the heart of it; it's disheartening to get blown up by something that doesn't actually have to hit you to make the kill. Five, ten feet away? Well, they missed you, pretty cleanly.. doesn't matter, that cover you were using to survive the rifle fire just killed you, because the rocket splashed on part of it.

Mind, most WW2-variety shooters that I know of have the bazooka/rocket-launcher intended as an anti-vehicle weapon; you drag them out when somebody brings in the gunship/tank/whatever. They're typically so unwieldy (make you move slower, reload incredibly slowly, block off half your field of view..) and inaccurate that hitting anything smaller than enemy armor is either a miracle, an inhumanly skilled opponent, or a cheater.. and in the first two cases, I don't mind getting blown up by it, because even landing it close enough to splash-kill a human-sized target is a pretty awesome shot. Grenades are worse to deal with, but if you want the game to have any sort of tactical verisimilitude at all.. well, flipping a grenade over the wall your opponents are hiding behind is exactly what you're supposed to do.

[Spartacus]

I do recall a perk in Call of Duty that allows you to pick up ammo off a corpse. Another made explosive weapons better. Combine that with two grenade launchers (so you pick up two grenades per corpse if you miss with one) and it makes for a dangerous and very easy to use combo.

[Dienekes]

You kinda answer the question yourself with your story. By pure luck you got 5 kills in a single shot.

Now, personally, I don't think in most games the aoe guns are the best, that belongs to the sniper. A good sniper can more or less take on anyone in most games I've played. However, a complete noob won't use the sniper nearly as efficiently, but a lucky shot from the rocket launcher can still give you those 5 kills.

That and the mutually assured destruction thing can get a bit tedious.

[Traab]

I do recall a perk in Call of Duty that allows you to pick up ammo off a corpse. Another made explosive weapons better. Combine that with two grenade launchers (so you pick up two grenades per corpse if you miss with one) and it makes for a dangerous and very easy to use combo.

Danger close IS a powerful boost to using exploding weapons, i admit, but I generally dont bother with scavenger because its fairly rare that I can make it to my target to resupply off him without getting killed. There is usually another enemy nearby where he just died.

As for the 5 kills in one shot. That has happened to me ONCE as far as I can recall, and ive been playing various games on and off for years. At most ill hit two people and once in a great while 3. Personally, I find it funniest when I use the grenade launcher at close range and it doesnt explode, but apparently hits the guy so hard it kills him anyways. Oddest thing ive ever seen. lol

[Dogmantra]

I think it's certainly the impersonality of getting killed by splash that people don't like. In TF2, the Soldier and Demoman are generally considered two of the hardest guys to play (especially the latter) and have all the explosives. Complaints come from when Demomen get kills by spamming sticky bombs or throwing random grenades, or when either class just hammers Left Mouse Button while looking at the capture point. In all my time playing I heard people complain about getting killed by genuinely good, direct-hit based play all of zero times.

[littlebottom]

have to say that a lot of shooters lately have been to the point where the most basic gun in the game is proberbly better than explosives since you pop one or two shots to kill someone, its quicker and more efficient as long as you can aim (which 99% of people can in an FPS on a still or slowly moving target)

which is why im playing Crysis 2, since your nano suit has an "armour mode" which you can pop on when you see that grenade by your feet, giving you a chance to survive, same for normal shooting, if youve got the armour on, it will take a reasonable amount more shots to actually get killed, but if you havnt got it on, then its easy kills, usually for snipers because you dont know they are about to shoot you, or someone behind you. but i think it gives the game a bit of a hope that you can survive (usually) someone attempting to kill you with overpowered grenades and explosives etc.

[Mr._Blinky]

The M203 in the Call of Duty games is really easy to use, which is why it's called the Noob Tube as opposed to the Pro Pipe. Sure, you only get two shots, but those are essentially free kills; I rarely use the damn thing unless I have to and I can still kill someone at almost any distance with it far easier than I can with bullets. There's a reason that Danger Close+One Man Army is considered such a gamebreaker in MW2; anyone with an infinite supply of grenades is going to be getting a lot of kills.

There was a period there in MW2 multiplayer where probably fully half of my deaths were from some idiot across the map just firing off grenades at random. And that's the real BS part: the blast radius on the M203 means that they can just spam in my general direction and still kill me easily. A lot of Noob Tubers in CoD won't charge at the enemy team, but will instead just sit back and chuck grenades off until they hit something, which they will. If you don't believe me, just find a DC+OMA Noob Tuber in MW2 and watch how many kills they get; it's almost always at the top of the rankings, if not the top by a good margin. Trust me, if you don't think the M203 is easy to get kills with I have no idea which Modern Warfare game you're playing.

[RS14]

Explosive chuckers allow (inaccurate) but effective fire from beyond the range of effective reply. You can fire something in the general direction of your opponent and return to cover before they get the chance to fire back. It doesn't need to be particularly effective; with any nonzero kill chance, it amounts to a free chance to kill somebody.

The reason real life militaries field weapons other than HE chuckers include:

* Limited maximum range (150m-400m for the M203, contrast with 550-800m for the M16). Video games rarely feature real life engagement ranges. (Mortars and other artillery are in a different class due to minimum ranges, inability to move rapidly, inability to take cover effectively, and lack of accuracy).
* Logistics. 40mm grenades are heavy and a pain to keep combat troops supplied with. Contrast with video games, where players often can sprint around with a rifle, grenade launcher, and pistol, and have little reason not to expend their 40mm ammo rapidly.
* Suppression. Semi-automatic rifles are able to provide effective suppressive fire for much longer periods of time than grenade launchers. In contrast, it is rare for enemy fire in video games to pin players completely (related to a greater willingness of players to be shot, and a lack of patience). See also logistics.

[ScottishDragon]

Ok, you play cod, any you don't see how noob tubing is easy? point-click-boom. easy kill. most of tge time it's medium/long range anyway. there is no skill in it. Thats why it's a noob tube.

[Griever]

I think it's certainly the impersonality of getting killed by splash that people don't like. In TF2, the Soldier and Demoman are generally considered two of the hardest guys to play (especially the latter) and have all the explosives. Complaints come from when Demomen get kills by spamming sticky bombs or throwing random grenades, or when either class just hammers Left Mouse Button while looking at the capture point. In all my time playing I heard people complain about getting killed by genuinely good, direct-hit based play all of zero times.

It is really freaking annoying when you sneak up on a soldier, ubersaw him once, knocking his health to below yours, and then he fires off two rockets at his own feet that kills you and leaves him very injured, but not dead. Even if the first doesn't blast you out of melee range and you do get that second hit in, you both die and he didn't even have to look at you.

[littlebottom]

Ok, you play cod, any you don't see how noob tubing is easy? point-click-boom. easy kill. most of tge time it's medium/long range anyway. there is no skill in it. Thats why it's a noob tube.

sorry to tell you, but any FPS is point-click-kill, the only difference is its just a kill and no boom, same principle whether its a bullet or an explosive, people just get annoyed because they can be 1 shot kills with only a rough accuracy, as opposed to a 1 shot kill with high accuracy or a several shot kill with rough accuracy.

[ScottishDragon]

sorry to tell you, but any FPS is point-click-kill, the only difference is its just a kill and no boom, same principle whether its a bullet or an explosive, people just get annoyed because they can be 1 shot kills with only a rough accuracy, as opposed to a 1 shot kill with high accuracy or a several shot kill with rough accuracy.

Yes but sniping takes skill. What i'm saying is noob tubing is just one point and click,and you dont even have to see the person to kill them. There is low risk of you getting shot at. With an assault rifle or similar , there are risks with it, and your reflexes need to be faster than the person your trying to kill. Yeah it's still mostly easy, but with noob tubing it's ALWAYS easy.

[Traab]

Ok, you play cod, any you don't see how noob tubing is easy? point-click-boom. easy kill. most of tge time it's medium/long range anyway. there is no skill in it. Thats why it's a noob tube.


There is just as much skill in point click shoot with a grenade launcher as there is with point click and shooting an assault rifle. More in fact as you only get one shot at a time, instead of a full clip that lets you zero in on the target while firing. As for it being medium to long range most of the time. When its medium range, the machine guns and assault rifles have an equal advantage due to rate of fire, ease of reloading, and the sights, and at long range im more worried about the snipers than the grenade users.

Anyone who plays cod knows that most of the time your death takes a second or less whether you are being blown up by a grenade launcher, sniped in the head, riddled with bullets, or knifed in the back. Yes its possible to survive a machine gunner shooting at you, but its also possible to not be killed by the blast radius of an explosive.

As a final note id like to add this. FPS games are not brand new. They have been out for a LOT of years, and so have had many different versions and varieties to mix and match weapon types, damage potentials, and overall balance. And they still have things like grenade launchers, c4, and other fun little toys that get you blown up. Maybe, just maybe, these game developers know what they are doing and realize that if you look at the overall game design, rocket launchers arent an unbalanced, unfair, or cheap weapon. And in fact are just as well balanced as any other type, with advantages and disadvantages of their own.

[elpollo]

Because it's a First Order Optimal Strategy (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2738-Playing-Like-a-Designer-Part-2) (a minute or two in), and means that newer players have a chance. Nobody likes losing, especially to people who are less experience at the game.

Of course, regardless of whether explosive weapons are in a game or not people are always going to gripe about people killing them, so I wouldn't worry too much.



for a sufficiently accurate grenadier

... doesn't that kinda make them not a noob?



Another thing is that the ammo is a huge drawback, so better players shy away from it. Less experienced players don't, and they get killed frequently, allowing many shots to be taken with grenades upon respawning.

So... if the better players are dying less frequently than the "noob" players, but the "noob" players are racking up loads of kills, doesn't that mean that the "noob" players are just 'tubing each other? It's the only way this adds up, and if that's the case then frankly I don't see the problem.



Yes but sniping takes skill. What i'm saying is noob tubing is just one point and click,and you dont even have to see the person to kill them. There is low risk of you getting shot at. With an assault rifle or similar , there are risks with it, and your reflexes need to be faster than the person your trying to kill. Yeah it's still mostly easy, but with noob tubing it's ALWAYS easy.

Sniping doesn't necessarily take skill - I've done well sniping before, and I only rarely play online. A good deal of the time most of the enemy team are waaay too busy with the rest of your team to be looking for you all of the time, so you've got a lot of chances to miss. 'S'why a lot of people like sniping.

[MoelVermillion]

Yes but sniping takes skill. What i'm saying is noob tubing is just one point and click,and you dont even have to see the person to kill them. There is low risk of you getting shot at. With an assault rifle or similar , there are risks with it, and your reflexes need to be faster than the person your trying to kill. Yeah it's still mostly easy, but with noob tubing it's ALWAYS easy.

I'll admit I don't really play CoD so maybe its just a badly made game and none of the following are actual concerns in it, I wouldn't know.

Aiming and shooting is only one aspect of play that needs to be considered and is not necessarily the most important one for doing well. Generally Rocket Launchers have a one ammo clip and a very long reload time, yes you can kill a guy when you hit the ground next to him with a shot but you're not going to be killing anyone if you're caught with your pants down when enemies round the corner while you're still reloading. Yes you don't always have to see an enemy to kill them but if you fire haphazardly in a small room you can kill yourself. Yes you can kill multiple enemies if they're bunched up together but if they're spread out you're going to have to reload between kills whereas a machine gun can spread across the entire group.

Now its possible to over come these problems. If you keep dying while reloading you'll learn to preserve ammo, use your side arm and reload behind cover. If you keep killing yourself by shooting to close too yourself you will begin to learn maps and distances, what are the parts of the map you are not likely to end up using a rocket launcher pointblank, what distance is it safe to shoot from, when is it worth killing yourself to take down enemies. If you keep dying to large groups you'll either learn to pick your battles or ambush in choke points. All of these are skills you need to develop as a player to actually use these weapons efficiently and I don't think being really good at spraying a machine gun is necessarily more skillful than these.

[warty goblin]

... doesn't that kinda make them not a noob?

I don't think it takes great skills to lob a projectile inside a five meter radius of one's target.

[Traab]

I don't think it takes great skills to lob a projectile inside a five meter radius of one's target.

It does when you are 50 meters away and your target is moving. You need skill to be able to time the shot and lead your target sufficiently to catch him in the blast radius. While trying not to be perforated by him or anyone else at the same time, since, outside of extreme ranges, which is basically a hail mary attempt by the grenade launcher, you are just as vulnerable to sudden death from a gunman as you are to a grenader.

*EDIT* Not GREAT skills no, but then, no weapon in a fps takes GREAT skill to use. It still takes some skill though, just like using any other weapon properly.

[Bagelz]

It comes down to one of two things
either 1 the game is not balanced
or 2 there are people who are frustrated because they spent time learning how to aim with an instant gun (instead of an explosive with travel time that is dodgeable) instead of tactics with various weapons.

I don't play medal of honor or company of heroes, but i do tend to play a lot of capture the flag type games.
I can't play snipers - i'm just not good at it and it frustrates me sometimes, but i've figured out how to get past that. Generally I can find a pistol that is accurate enough to use at long range and I can bang out 5 or shots and hit with 2 or 3 before I have to dodge a sniper. Or I can pop out from around a corner and launch a single rocket and duck back, find a different corner (because now a sniper will generally be looking for you to pop back out again) and keep wearing him down.

The people that are vocal are those who don't realize that explosives are dodgeable and actually less effiecient. You never hear people who don't have a problem. Its kindof like how if someone is getting headshots without a sniper rifle they are constantly accused of cheating. players are frustrated because they can't do the same, and haven't learned how to adapt to compensate.

In team fortress I need to constantly change classes to be effective against the particular makeup of an oposing team. Demo-men are good for breaking up barricades, I alread explained how I take care of snipers (scout pistols) and engineers are great for defending against soldiers and scouts.

[Sarco_Phage]

The issue is that "noob tubers" can literally rain a hailstorm of grenades, killing people from across the map without aiming.

I should know, it's a hilarious way to grief.

[Traab]

The issue is that "noob tubers" can literally rain a hailstorm of grenades, killing people from across the map without aiming.

I should know, it's a hilarious way to grief.

How? In cod you get TWO grenades to launch. Thats hardly a hailstorm. And its the most ruinously wasteful method ever thought of to try and launch across the length of a map, as its like watching a qb chuck the football 60 yards down field. At that point he is just praying the right side catches it.

[Sarco_Phage]

How? In cod you get TWO grenades to launch. Thats hardly a hailstorm. And its the most ruinously wasteful method ever thought of to try and launch across the length of a map, as its like watching a qb chuck the football 60 yards down field. At that point he is just praying the right side catches it.

So this thread is about you trying to justify your noob tubing by saying that it's a lot harder than it looks? :P

I'm just kidding bro, but really you should try hail mary grenade shots in large free for all matches in the small maps. You'll get kills without trying, get shot in the ****, respawn, and fire more grenades.

^ always check the white text, btw.

EDIT: Furthermore, another fun thing to try is impact kills with the launcher. It's one thing to kill someone with the blast radius, and entirely another (more hilarious) thing to hit them in the chest with a grenade.

[Traab]

So this thread is about you trying to justify your noob tubing by saying that it's a lot harder than it looks? :P

I'm just kidding bro, but really you should try hail mary grenade shots in large free for all matches in the small maps. You'll get kills without trying, get shot in the ****, respawn, and fire more grenades.

^ always check the white text, btw.

Ah you are talking free for alls, I generally do the team death matches or the capture the objective style games. Also, I should point out, that while I like my grenades, they arent my only form of combat. I pick a setup that matches the map. For example, skid row ill often have fun with my riot shield just for the hell of it. Its freaking hilarious shield bashing people to death in tight quarters.


Im an equal opportunity weapon user, depending on my mood ill go sniper rifle, assault rifle, dual wielding guns, (Fun but a real chore in open areas as the range and accuracy SUCKS) I just dont especially understand the hate for the grenades as I personally get more pissed off at the sniper squads than the grenade launchers. If it wasnt for the kill cam id REALLY hate the snipers.


EDIT: Furthermore, another fun thing to try is impact kills with the launcher. It's one thing to kill someone with the blast radius, and entirely another (more hilarious) thing to hit them in the chest with a grenade.

I agree, there is something oddly amusing about shooting a guy in the face with an unexploded grenade and it kills him.

[Zeful]

Ok, you play cod, any you don't see how noob tubing is easy? point-click-boom. easy kill. most of tge time it's medium/long range anyway. there is no skill in it. Thats why it's a noob tube.

Except your playing a game designed to resemble modern military combat, and there a viable tactic is a viable tactic is a viable tactic. "Noob Tubing" is a viable tactic.

[Sarco_Phage]

Except your playing a game designed to resemble modern military combat, and there a viable tactic is a viable tactic is a viable tactic. "Noob Tubing" is a viable tactic.

If it were really designed to resemble modern military combat, then it'd be all airstrike all the time. Like, no kidding.

[Emperor Ing]

Defend Pro Pipes all you want. Anyone with depth perception using the pro pipe can compensate for the arc down, and their AOE simply makes it an easy kill. I've seen my brother (Because I don't play call of duty) get more than a few nukes from Modern Warfare 2 doing nothing except use Pro Pipe and One Man Army.

[Traab]

Defend Pro Pipes all you want. Anyone with depth perception using the pro pipe can compensate for the arc down, and their AOE simply makes it an easy kill. I've seen my brother (Because I don't play call of duty) get more than a few nukes from Modern Warfare 2 doing nothing except use Pro Pipe and One Man Army.


Meh, and anyone with functioning eyes can plant a spray of bullets into the torso of someone at close to mid range, or plant a sniper round in their brain pan from the other side of the map. Ive also seen numerous nukes and the guy launching them was a sniper, or a regular gunner. In all honesty, the entire game is easy, the only thing that makes it hard is the other players and their skill level relative to your own. Ive played games where ive gotten 15+ kill streaks with a riot shield and shot gun, and others were ive been killed 24 times with 5 total kills on the same map. The only difference is who im playing against. I will admit though that Pro Pipe is a new term, Ive really only ever ehard them reffered to as noob tubes.

[warty goblin]

Except your playing a game designed to resemble modern military combat, and there a viable tactic is a viable tactic is a viable tactic. "Noob Tubing" is a viable tactic.
Last I heard, running around the map knifing people was also a viable CoD tactic, as was dual wielding shotguns. Maybe I've been looking at the wrong info, but I'm fairly sure neither of these are actual battlefield tactics. I've also clearly been missing the bit where loads of smallscale firefights end with tactical nuclear strikes.

Stuff only gets put in a game like CoD (particularly the multiplayer) because the designers think it's cool, not because it occurs in modern warfare. Oh it gets dressed up in a modern skin since that sells better with the military fetishism crowd, but authenticity and realism are hardly things for which these games strive.

[Hyudra]

Speaking just from the experience of a TF2 player, I tend to find that Soldiers (who have Bazooka as a primary weapon) and Demomen (grenade launcher) are very frustrating to fight. They're also, incidentally, very easy to play well and if you put in the time to figure them out, they output results

I think part of it boils down to the ongoing war between burst & DPS. Doing more damage faster is better than doing consistent damage over a longer period, barring exceptions where you're very very durable as a general rule. Add in real time mechanics and a gun that deals 100 damage a second is going to be vastly better than a gun that does 350 damage over the course of two seconds. Why? Because you can take cover between shots, you're dealing that first 100 damage immediately with more damage coming every second thereafter, and an enemy that's dead sooner is an enemy that isn't going to hurt you any further.

Then there's splash. Someone's hiding beside a doorway? Shoot the floor just to their left. Cover does not apply. Suppressive fire is that much more effective, and you're far more effective against groups... all in all throwing a wrench in tactics that would otherwise be viable (moving forward as a team, taking cover)

[Vorpalbob]

One of the only online shooters I play is Battlefield: 1942, and I must say that in that game, using a rocket launcher against infantry is kind of stupid. I have seen rockets land right at the feet of my enemy, and they just turn around and fill me with holes while I frantically switch to my pistol. Against an enemy with full health, only a direct hit will kill. Grenades? A WHOLE different story.

I don't really feel that explosives are overpowered, seeing as in a well-made game, every weapon is overpowered when used by someone who has mastered it. When I play shooters with my friends, they ban me from sniping because I'll just murder them (unless it's co-op). When we play SSB Melee, we don't let Antonyious play as Kirby for the same reason.

[Mr._Blinky]

Yeah, I honestly don't understand how anyone can play Call of Duty and not understand how stupid the M203 is. Every single time I get my hands on it it's essentially a pair of free kills, and I'm not even someone who practices with it or uses One Man Army+Danger Close. Seriously, I feel dirty using it because I get so many cheap kills.

The thing is that for all of the "but it's so hard to aim!" I keep hearing, it really isn't. Because honestly, you don't even have to aim all that well, just shoot the wall behind someone and they're dead; the blast radius is ridiculous, and makes aiming unnecessary at anything less than extreme distances. Hell, if you have any depth perception at all you should easily be able to compensate for the arc, because it really isn't that bad. And often the grenadier will kill the rifleman first because on modes below Hardcore bullets will still take a second or two to kill someone, whereas some noob can pull off a panicked shot with the M203 and kill me almost instantly.

Limited ammo? That's why people use One Man Army+Danger Close and just sit back and spam. Any map with a corridor for them to shoot down becomes and instant death zone, because they'll just keep dropping grenades on you as you try and make your way to them. Half the time they won't even be aiming for you, they'll just be spamming in that general direction and happen to hit you.

And what about people who camp with it? You can set up on a perch aimed at a doorway, and you don't even have to shoot at the guys coming out; just pull the trigger the second you see movement and you'll get an almost guaranteed kill long before the other guy has a chance to spot you. I should know, I've done it before and I felt cheap as hell. I'm sorry to have to put it this way, but if you're having problems using the CoD noob tube...maybe you're just bad with it?

[The Linker]

Picking a moving target from fifty feet away and specifically sniping him with a grenade? That's awesome. That's not really what people are talking about when 'noob tubing' comes up, though -- at least in my mind. It's more like when you wander around a corner and find a guy ten feet away and blow him up by aiming vaguely near his feet. And make no mistake, at that distance, there is a wide 'sweet spot' angle. I noob-tubed a lot back in the day. :smallbiggrin:

But again, I'm not talking about lobbing something across the entire map to snipe a specific, moving target. That is an example of skill. Hitting someone who's at the bottom of the stairs from you is... different. :smallwink:

[ScottishDragon]

How? In cod you get TWO grenades to launch. Thats hardly a hailstorm. And its the most ruinously wasteful method ever thought of to try and launch across the length of a map, as its like watching a qb chuck the football 60 yards down field. At that point he is just praying the right side catches it.

Yeah like the other guy said,scavenger/danger close/one-man-army.And could you please tell me what cod you'r playing that noob tubing is challenging. I'll admit I only recently got xbox live so all I deal with is mw2 and black ops. Are any of them recent? If so I wolud love to play them.
i hope it's cod 1,getting it tomorrow.

[Traab]

Picking a moving target from fifty feet away and specifically sniping him with a grenade? That's awesome. That's not really what people are talking about when 'noob tubing' comes up, though -- at least in my mind. It's more like when you wander around a corner and find a guy ten feet away and blow him up by aiming vaguely near his feet. And make no mistake, at that distance, there is a wide 'sweet spot' angle. I noob-tubed a lot back in the day. :smallbiggrin:

But again, I'm not talking about lobbing something across the entire map to snipe a specific, moving target. That is an example of skill. Hitting someone who's at the bottom of the stairs from you is... different. :smallwink:

True, there isnt any skill at that point, but how much skill does it take to walk around that corner with an smg, go "Oh &*^%" and hold down the fire button? Its not a hard target to hit, and just as in the case of the grenade launcher, chances are the first person to react is going to kill the other since it really doesnt take more than a second of fire to blow the other guy away at that range.


And could you please tell me what cod you'r playing that noob tubing is challenging.

Its no more or less challenging than killing someone with any other weapon. Well, barring the knifers, ive never been able to get good at doing that. But thats my point, its not any simpler to use than any other standard weapon choice. You can slaughter people with a grenade launcher, a sniper rifle, a lmg, a smg, and all of them take similar levels of skill to use well. All of them have good sides and bad sides, all of them have the advantage in certain scenarios and the disadvantage in others.

[The Linker]

True, there isnt any skill at that point, but how much skill does it take to walk around that corner with an smg, go "Oh &*^%" and hold down the fire button? Its not a hard target to hit, and just as in the case of the grenade launcher, chances are the first person to react is going to kill the other since it really doesnt take more than a second of fire to blow the other guy away at that range.

I'm not seeing it. Tube = one shot/click, a very wide kill-zone, enemy isn't able to dodge by ducking, weaving, dashing, etc. SMG = four-five shots, must hit target directly, target is able to throw your aim off by going prone or sidestepping or just running.

I dunno, I saved myself from many deaths with a quick dodge. :smalltongue: Can't do that against a nade. :smalleek:

[Traab]

Only time ive ever failed to gun a guy down in that corner situation is if he guns me down first, or if he was close enough to stab me or something along those lines. so /shrug ymmv I guess.

[ScottishDragon]

Only time ive ever failed to gun a guy down in that corner situation is if he guns me down first, or if he was close enough to stab me or something along those lines. so /shrug ymmv I guess.

Exactly. You occationally fail. How many times do you die if you noob tube? Not as much of a challenge.

[Traab]

Exactly. You occationally fail. How many times do you die if you noob tube? Not as much of a challenge.


At that range? All the time. :p KABOOM!

[Flechair]

Speaking just from the experience of a TF2 player, I tend to find that Soldiers (who have Bazooka as a primary weapon) and Demomen (grenade launcher) are very frustrating to fight. They're also, incidentally, very easy to play well and if you put in the time to figure them out, they output results

I think part of it boils down to the ongoing war between burst & DPS. Doing more damage faster is better than doing consistent damage over a longer period, barring exceptions where you're very very durable as a general rule. Add in real time mechanics and a gun that deals 100 damage a second is going to be vastly better than a gun that does 350 damage over the course of two seconds. Why? Because you can take cover between shots, you're dealing that first 100 damage immediately with more damage coming every second thereafter, and an enemy that's dead sooner is an enemy that isn't going to hurt you any further.

Then there's splash. Someone's hiding beside a doorway? Shoot the floor just to their left. Cover does not apply. Suppressive fire is that much more effective, and you're far more effective against groups... all in all throwing a wrench in tactics that would otherwise be viable (moving forward as a team, taking cover)

Speaking from the perspective of someone that's actually taken the time to get good enough at TF2 to play competitively. I can tell you, you're wrong.


Soldiers and Demomen are very frustrating to fight.

In a straight up fight? Of course they are, but unless you're playing scout, why would you go at one of the two primary offense classes head on? The answer: You wouldn't. Pyro, Engie, and Heavy are all defensive classes (Don't think "But actually pyro is offense and demo is defense; Valve tells me so." That'll immediately make your argument moot, anyone that plays TF2 knows otherwise.) and Sniper, Spy, and Medic are all supports. None of those classes should try to be pushing a soldier or demoman, they should be making a defense against them.


They're also, incidentally, very easy to play well and if you put in the time to figure them out, they output results.

Alright, go tell that to all of ChHa that it'll take no time to be as good as drolkcal. Go ahead and do it.

The fact of the matter is that you just stated the super obvious in an incorrect way. If you take the time, which will be a huge amount of time to figure out how to play them extremely well, yeah they're not that hard, but to be honest, they are the hardest classes in the game. Air shots with demo pipes is not easy, trying to hit someone with the higher ground as soldier is really hard. It all comes down to practice, and they fact that I stated above, DEMO AND SOLDIER ARE THE PRIMARY OFFENSE CLASSES. So of course when you've mastered the classes, topping a public server comes easy, and we wouldn't think twice about it. drolkcal is as good as he is at soldier because he has 400+ hours on specifically soldier. I was as good as I was because I have 130 hours of demoman. And on top of that, I practiced every chance I could get. That's why we topped the leaderboards.


I think part of it boils down to the ongoing war between burst & DPS. Doing more damage faster is better than doing consistent damage over a longer period, barring exceptions where you're very very durable as a general rule. Add in real time mechanics and a gun that deals 100 damage a second is going to be vastly better than a gun that does 350 damage over the course of two seconds. Why? Because you can take cover between shots, you're dealing that first 100 damage immediately with more damage coming every second thereafter, and an enemy that's dead sooner is an enemy that isn't going to hurt you any further.

Actually, it sounds like your team needs better composition. I would suggest a medic. Or how about improving your positioning. Take the higher ground, hold a tight passageway. As a heavy, why are you rushing a soldier or demoman? Heavy is a defense class. On another note, splash rockets don't do anywhere near 100 damage. They max at around 80, but generally do about 50-65 damage, or if you're like 20 feet away, like 40.


Suppressive fire is that much more effective, and you're far more effective against groups... all in all throwing a wrench in tactics that would otherwise be viable (moving forward as a team, taking cover)

Huh, it's almost like we've been through this. They're the primary offensive classes. Why would you push them? I mean, you could possibly get an uber and push through them, but that's unheard of. Or your scouts (which has the highest skill-ceiling in the game, and can take out a soldier or demo without thought) could pick the enemy team's medic, snipers, soldiers, and demomen without repercussion. Or you could have demos and sollys of your own.

But what do I know, only having played above the public level and having actually having studied professional competitive play and having 800 hours on TF2. What do I know?

[The Linker]

Huh, it's almost like we've been through this.

This might seem really obvious, but did you know he wrote the entirety of that post earlier today, and did not, in fact, have the chance to write any part of that after reading any of your arguments?

I don't get the point of a sarcastic jab like that. "It's almost like we've been through this!" No, you wrote something on that subject that he hasn't gotten to read yet. You went through it. He has not gone over, through, or under it in any way.

Again, this might seem really obvious. But I cannot find any other justification for such a statement.

I'll leave alone for now the fact that he's just gently throwing out there his own theories on game design based on what he's experienced, which should by all means be encouraged to further discussion and deepen one's understanding...

[Flechair]

This might seem really obvious, but did you know he wrote the entirety of that post earlier today, and did not, in fact, have the chance to write any part of that after reading any of your arguments?

I don't get the point of a sarcastic jab like that. "It's almost like we've been through this!" No, you wrote something on that subject that he hasn't gotten to read yet. You went through it. He has not gone over, through, or under it in any way.

Again, this might seem really obvious. But I cannot find any other justification for such a statement.

I'll leave alone for now the fact that he's just gently throwing out there his own theories on game design based on what he's experienced, which should by all means be encouraged to further discussion and deepen one's understanding...

What you see as a sarcastic jab, I see as a way of highlighting an answer that I'm, once again, having to bring up. While there might have been a better way to put it, I did not say with the same intensity as you.

But in regards to opinion, I wouldn't say his was 'throwing it out gently'. He stated his opinion as a fact. So as a more experienced player, I counter-argued against his statement. And the last time I checked, doing so didn't halt further discussion.

[Traab]

Meh, either way, rocket launchers/grenade launchers are not cheap weapons or overpowered or anything of the sort. They are just a different method of dealing death with strong points and weaknesses, the same as any other. Instead of a spray of bullets killing you before you can react to being under attack, its an explosion that kills you before you react to being under attack. Just as bullets can miss, or not do lethal damage, so can an explosion. Just as danger close makes explosives more effective, stopping power makes bullets more effective.

[The Linker]

What you see as a sarcastic jab, I see as a way of highlighting an answer that I'm, once again, having to bring up.

Yes, but the phrasing implied he should have gotten it the first time, somehow. Actually, so does this phrasing. Once again, you have to bring it up. If only he had somehow gotten it into his mind... the... first time? :smallconfused:

After some thought, I can see it from the perspective of wanting to make sure that he knows that that point is an important one and has come up multiple times. Just seems an aggressive phrasing. :smallfrown:


But in regards to opinion, I wouldn't say his was 'throwing it out gently'. He stated his opinion as a fact.

YMMV on that, I suppose. Myself, I didn't see anything wrong with 'speaking just from', 'I tend to find', and 'I think'. I got a definite 'opinion' vibe from that. :smallfrown:

[MoelVermillion]

Yes, but the phrasing implied he should have gotten it the first time, somehow. Actually, so does this phrasing. Once again, you have to bring it up. If only he had somehow gotten it into his mind... the... first time? :smallconfused:

After some thought, I can see it from the perspective of wanting to make sure that he knows that that point is an important one and has come up multiple times. Just seems an aggressive phrasing. :smallfrown:



YMMV on that, I suppose. Myself, I didn't see anything wrong with 'speaking just from', 'I tend to find', and 'I think'. I got a definite 'opinion' vibe from that. :smallfrown:

Eh he probably worded it a little badly in a few spots but nitpicking over that doesn't really address the main content of his post (which are the points he made). I am inclined to agree with everything he said as far as TF2 goes.

If you're a bad player a Demoman or Soldier can just spam you to death without any sense of aim, but once you're say... good at scout? The soldier has to predict every movement you will make because unlike most classes who have hit scan guns, his attacks have to travel to a target and the target has to still be there when the shot goes off. As a good scout with good dodging habits a soldier has to work really really hard just to get a single shot to hit you, same goes for a Demoman. There are some skills that Soldiers and Demos can practice to overcome these problems, creating trap patterns to get you to dodge into their next shot, comboing their first shot into a guaranteed airshot, ambushing you in small rooms... but that's just it, these are skills that need to be practiced if you want to be an efficient Soldier or Demo in any match with an opponent who can actually play the game well.

Obviously other classes have skills that need to be learnt as well but in general its much easier to learn things like spin your "minigun up while jumping around a corner as you're not slowed in the air" or "Puff + Sting and airblast reflects" than it is to learn "how to predict where an extremely fast opponent who can strafe and double jump will be in the next second or so when my rocket explodes".

[Flechair]

Eh he probably worded it a little badly in a few spots but nitpicking over that doesn't really address the main content of his post which is the points he made. I am inclined to agree with everything he said as far as TF2 goes.

If you're a bad player a Demoman or Soldier can just spam you to death without any sense of aim, but once you're say... good at scout? The soldier has to predict every movement you will make because unlike most classes hit scan guns his attacks have to travel to a target and the target has to still be there when the shot goes off. As a good scout with good dodging habits a soldier has to work really really hard just to get a single shot to hit you, same goes for a Demoman. There are some skills that Soldiers and Demos can practice to overcome these problems, creating trap patterns to get you to dodge into their next one, comboing their first shot into a guaranteed airshot, ambushing you in small rooms... but that's just it, these are skills that need to be practiced if you want to be an efficient Soldier or Demo in any match with an opponent who can actually play the game well.

Obviously other classes have skills that need to be learnt as well but in general its much easier to learn things like spin your "minigun up while jumping around a corner as you're not slowed in the air" or "Puff + Sting and airblast reflects" than it is to learn "how to predict where an extremely fast opponent who can strafe and double jump will be in the next second or so when my rocket explodes".

This. And it might have come off as aggressive wording, but I didn't necessarily mean to be. You are arguing with sleep-deprived flu suffering Hawkeye, but who knows. :smallamused:

[The Linker]

Yeah, I can accept that. I apologize if I came off as attacking you -- I suppose I worry overly about what 'shhh pros are talking' situations I think I find, and I don't want people I know to fall into that. :smallfrown:

I um well COOKIE (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4893/cookiepie.png)

[Triaxx]

Grenades and spray and pray are an interesting, if frustrating dichotomy in video games, particularly in Multiplayer, but also occasionally in Single.

If you try and take cover, you get grenaded, whether by tossed or launched. If you stay up and moving, which is the proper method for avoiding nades, you end up shot, whether by a sniper or someone who's doing nothing but holding the trigger.

In short:

'You have logged onto the server. Prepare to die!'

[Spartacus]

Instead of a spray of bullets killing you before you can react to being under attack, its an explosion that kills you before you react to being under attack.

Theoretically, one could whip around absurdly quickly and get a lucky headshot in response to bullets. Grenade launcher gives a reaction window that is not near-zero, but is in fact zero.


Just as bullets can miss, or not do lethal damage, so can an explosion.
It is easier to hit with grenades than bullets. You need to hit with fewer grenades than bullets to kill someone. Both of these make it easier to kill someone with a grenade than a bullet.

[Hyudra]

Satirical guide to TF2's (rocket wielding) Soldier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM6V3OYcpmU)

Relevant to discussion.

[Traab]

Theoretically, one could whip around absurdly quickly and get a lucky headshot in response to bullets. Grenade launcher gives a reaction window that is not near-zero, but is in fact zero.


It is easier to hit with grenades than bullets. You need to hit with fewer grenades than bullets to kill someone. Both of these make it easier to kill someone with a grenade than a bullet.

Theoretically yes, but you have to spin around, locate the guy shooting you, and then aim and fire at him in the .75 seconds of life you have left before your bullet riddled corpse falls to the ground twitching and you respawn elsewhere. Unless the guy is shooting you in the feet the entire time, your best hope is for a mutual kill. And really, its not easier to hit with grenades than bullets. Grenades have a travel time greater than bullets.

Lets say you are holding an automatic weapon and im holding my "noob tube" we both see the same target running in a straight line at about mid range. I have to lead my target by a greater amount in order to hit him than you do with your gun. If we both press fire at the same time, with excellent accuracy, I MIGHT steal the kill from you, but I bet your bullets started hitting him first. The splash damage is all that keeps them from being virtually worthless.

[The Linker]

That video is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

But really, TF2 rockets are in a different world than MW2 of BF2 nade launchers. I've certainly never heard them compared, or the Soldier being referenced as a noob tuber. It's the instant-kill nades and rockets that people can get upset over. :smalltongue:

Edit:


Theoretically yes, but you have to spin around, locate the guy shooting you, and then aim and fire at him in the .75 seconds of life you have left before your bullet riddled corpse falls to the ground twitching and you respawn elsewhere. Unless the guy is shooting you in the feet the entire time, your best hope is for a mutual kill. And really, its not easier to hit with grenades than bullets. Grenades have a travel time greater than bullets.

We really, really have to be playing different games here. :smallconfused:

Or possibly thinking of different situations. Travel time is not going to matter at 10 feet of range. If you're behind a guy, he's 10 feet away, and you fire a nade? Do you really think he's going to be able to hear you fire the shot, turn around, and kill you before the thing hits him? As opposed to possibly hearing a bullet fly by him or impact something near him and getting the chance to dash for cover if he happens to be near some? Maybe you wouldn't miss at that range, but a newer player might.

Is the former situation really more likely than the latter situation?

[Spartacus]

Theoretically yes, but you have to spin around, locate the guy shooting you, and then aim and fire at him in the .75 seconds of life you have left before your bullet riddled corpse falls to the ground twitching and you respawn elsewhere.

Which is, of course, .75 seconds longer than a grenade, which is my point.


And really, its not easier to hit with grenades than bullets. Grenades have a travel time greater than bullets.

Really, it's not easier to hit with bullets than grenades. Bullets have a smaller splash than grenades.


Lets say you are holding an automatic weapon and im holding my "noob tube" we both see the same target running in a straight line at about mid range. I have to lead my target by a greater amount in order to hit him than you do with your gun.

I'm pretty sure weapons in CoD are hitscan. If not, the bullets travel quickly enough that I've never had to lead a target, especially in the small environments CoD seems to love. Also, the Noob Tube has a kill zone that is large enough that you could aim at a target (maybe his knees...), he would run and you would miss, but the grenade exploding on the ground will still kill him. You used the weapon poorly, but still got an easy kill. This is a reason for the dislike of the weapon.



If we both press fire at the same time, with excellent accuracy, I MIGHT steal the kill from you, but I bet your bullets started hitting him first. The splash damage is all that keeps them from being virtually worthless.

Unless you are using a one-hit kill gun (or the UMP40 in MW2), the grenade will almost assuredly get the kill. It travels extremely quickly. The bullets, having (what I suspect is) a zero travel time, will hit first, no doubt. How does that matter?

It is a fast (though admittedly non-instant) traveling projectile that gets a one-hit kill on any target at any range, assuming a direct hit. That alone makes it very powerful. Add to that the fact that it can be taken with some of the better weapons in the game and it is extremely easy to aim due to splash (also giving it the ability to hit around walls/corners), the Noob Tube (at least the MW/MW2 iterations, the place I hear the most hate coming from) is an extremely potent weapon.

[The Linker]

Look.

Here is a guy. Pretend you're not actually on a tank, there, and that guy you see is an enemy.

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/598/598743/battlefield-2-20050324025836055-000.jpg

20 feet out, maybe? Considered a short-range encounter.

Using bullets. Here's where you have to aim to deal damage. Red zones are kill shots, yellow zones are places where you'll deal damage but not kill. You must hit the red zone once, or the yellow zone multiple times. And he's moving!

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2968/battlefield2guns.jpg

Using a grenade launcher. Here's where you have to aim to deal damage. Red zones are again kill shots, with yellow zones merely doing damage. You must hit the red zone once, or the yellow zone multiple times. (Note that in this instance red zones are not where the grenade must LAND, but where you must aim the reticule.)

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7699/battlefield2nades.jpg

...Are bullets really just as easy to hit with as grenades? :smallconfused:

[The White Lyre]

There’s multiple problems with the noobtube that I think you’re either simplifying or not even recognizing as issues. The first part is simply under exaggeration, but people on both sides of this argument are doing that, so…whatever. But for the issues that aren’t being recognized, that you’ve simply said “I don’t do that”, well that’s pretty different than your OP, which asked a question regarding the universal hate on the use of explosive-shooting weapons, not a look into your own tactics with the weapons.

So, ignoring the specific style that you’ve decided to play with, there’s a huge problem with noobtubes in MW2 (or there was, I haven’t played in a long time) because of multiple reasons:

-The one-man army/danger close perk combination, or even scavenger, made it so that people could abuse the noobtube and basically have unlimited ammo. That’s pretty ridiculous, and the developers did not intend for the weapon to be used in this way. This was simply an unforeseen combination of abilities that was made after months of gaming. Developers can’t foresee everything, and there is always a bit of creativity on behalf of the players that usually shows up a couple months after release, and often it is even good creativity in the sense that the community largely supports rather than criticizes it.

-I saw people mentioning the difficulty of aiming with a noobtube at distances. Really, it isn’t that difficult to do, even while moving, or shooting a moving target. For example, to kill a moving target using bullets, one would have to lead them with their crosshairs in order to hit them. But with a noobtube, it basically discounts that people are moving, because of the massive blast radius, and turns it into the same situation as dealing with a stationary target – shoot in a remotely close area and you’ll get a kill.
However, fragging a guy from 50 meters away in open terrain, I’d argue that takes skill.

-Also, a lot of gamers really hate the noobtube for the same reason that medieval knights would hate the crossbow – it discounts any skill they have, all the training and time they’ve put into the art of killing people, and basically “pwns” them. And to make matters worse, it may have even been a peasant that fired the crossbow!

-Anyways, I also saw someone mention the fact that since the developers haven’t taken it out, it must be fine. Well, in MW2 (which I think is what everyone is talking about?) they won’t just take out a weapon, because they’re basically done with the game…they’ve moved onto the next one. And in Black Ops, in fact, the noobtube has mostly become a non-issue for two reasons: it’s something like 33% more expensive than any other add-on IIRC, and it’s blast radius/damage to those within the radius has been nerfed so hard it’s practically useless – and now takes a certain skill for the average joe to use.

EDIT: I had a nice long explanation regarding killzones and hitmarkers, but it looks like The Linker destroyed my wall of text with a few "screen shots"...ha.
:smallsigh:

[Traab]

Ok, the thing with the kill zones and blast radius, you are right, absolutely, the launchers have a much larger lethal zone. But the reason for that is simple. That machine gun? Its firing off rounds very fast one after another, you dont have to aim before pulling the trigger, just sweep your bullet spitting machine gun int the general direction and you will start killing him as soon as its possible to connect. If you over or underestimate, no big deal, hold down the fire button and adjust till he dies.

With a launcher you have one shot. One. You have to aim for the right general area, adjust for the direction he is heading in, if any, and then fire. If you jump the gun, or overestimate, too freaking bad. You missed, your target sees you, and you are perforated before you can finish reloading your second shot. Thats WHY it has a far more forgiving radius unlike bullets which have to be a direct hit. Because without that large radius, you would be a sniper with a crappy scope trying to kill anyone with it. It would literally be like trying to snipe someone without using the scope at all with one of the single shot rifles. Now, I will admit that the danger close and scavenger perks are over the top. But thats an issue with in game buffs, not the weapon type itself.

As for the white lyre, my comment on grenade launchers not being removed didnt mean that if it was unbalanced cod would remove them from the game, its that virtually all fps games have an explosive shell of some sort, and always have. Bazookas, grenade launchers, rocket launchers whatever. Most games have some variation of them and this has been the status quo for many years. If these grenade launcher weapons were really such a horrible unbalanced cheap weapon, then why do developers insist on including them with each new game that gets released? Especially since they seem to piss off people to a alrge extent.

I see it alot like MMORPGs, there is a LOT of hate in pvp combat as each separate class gets its turn at being considered cheap, or noob only, or the devs "favorite class" it generally amounts to players not liking the fact that a different class is different and having to figure out a new strategy to beat them. Thats how I look at the fps games. Each weapon type counts as a different class. Some guns have big ammo clips, high damage, but HORRIBLE accuracy. Others have tiny clips, and great accuracy/damage, and every permutation in between. Grenade launchers are the odd man out because they are explosive, so they are high damage and accuracy doesnt count for as much. But thats offset by EXTREMELY limited clips, (ignoring that scavenger option) and slow reload times. The balance is there, its just a different style of balance because of how the weapon works compared to all the rest which act differently.

[Pie Guy]

I have no problem with noob tubing so long as you can't use the attachment, get two easy kills, then go back to fighting. With grenade launchers as actual weapons, at least you give up something for a gun with very little ammo.

Of course, that may just be rationalization because I farmed up danger close. :smallwink:

[The Linker]

There's not really anywhere to go from here, is there? You asked, we answered, you disagree with all our answers... we're sort of done, aren't we? :smalltongue:

[Spartacus]

Again, speaking from Cod MW and MW2, the grenades do not move slowly, you do not need to lead your target. Reloading does not take much time, and takes less with Sleight of Hand.

Your Machine Gun example, if you just spray their general area, you are either going to miss a lot, giving them time to react, or you are keeping a reticule on the enemy for a longer period of time, something relatively difficult to do, at least compared to getting it sorta-near to them once, with the grenade launcher.

Yes, other games did them better. TF2, for one. Battlefield 2, for another. But at least in the two Modern Warfare games, they were implemented in a horribly unbalanced manner.

[Traab]

I dunno, im kinda having fun with it. We are each making our points, (I suck at diagrams and screenshots otherwise id try to use them too, lol) and debating the merits of each others stances and reasons for said stances. Also, I agree with pie guy, it IS a bit off that we get two grenade launches per spawn and then go straight back to using a nice assault rifle or whatever. Give me my 5 rounds like my bazooka in medal of honor, and ill gladly turn in all but my sidearm and go to town. it might even make the choice a bit harder as now I have a real downside. For example, I can switch abck and forth between my assault rifle and grenade launcher depending on where I am, so its like I have an ideal weapon choice for 90% of the time.

[The Linker]

Your Machine Gun example, if you just spray their general area, you are either going to miss a lot, giving them time to react[...]

This is true. You want to start spraying before you have them in your sights, fine, but that gives them much more time to react to the person behind them and counter them or run off.

[Trekkin]

Here's why the phrase exists:

1. It is simple.
2. It implies a lack of skill on the part of someone who isn't the speaker.

I don't mean to say that FPS players are petty, infantile, trash-talking bundles of personal insecurity and egotism. That's a gross generalization and untrue for the vast proportion of the community. That said, there exists a vocal minority who take these things way too seriously and expend a great deal of time and bytes loudly establishing their supremacy over all that is not them, and it is from those players that I've noticed phrases like this arising.

The problem is not helped by the unusual nature of most launchers. I've not played even a significant fraction of the FPS games out there long enough to appreciate their subtle nuance, but the grenade launcher is usually the weapon least like the others, with physics not often seen for other weapons coming into play. Accordingly, when those more similar weapons get picked apart endlessly looking for infinitesimal advantages, the difference between, say, an assault rifle and a grenade launcher looks enormous. The guy who loves using a submachine gun and the guy who loves using an assault rifle can argue endlessly over who requires the most skill to "pwn", but they may both look with derision upon the poor grenadier who doesn't even need to aim as they understand the term -- and they do.

I admit I may be wrong and grenades may in fact represent an unfair advantage. In my experience, though, when a weapon, tactic, or class gets "OP" or a similar label slapped on it, it's usually not founded entirely on reasonable comparison of its capabilities with a significant baseline.

[Flechair]

Here's a good example of noob-tubing. I think~ :smallcool:

Yaaaaoooo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyGI_DCuSTc)

EDIT: at 3:40, eXtine makes the same sarcastic jab as me. I found that amusing. :smallamused:

[Shas aia Toriia]

As for the white lyre, my comment on grenade launchers not being removed didnt mean that if it was unbalanced cod would remove them from the game, its that virtually all fps games have an explosive shell of some sort, and always have. Bazookas, grenade launchers, rocket launchers whatever. Most games have some variation of them and this has been the status quo for many years. If these grenade launcher weapons were really such a horrible unbalanced cheap weapon, then why do developers insist on including them with each new game that gets released? Especially since they seem to piss off people to a alrge extent.


Aha! Here's where the disagreements come in the arguments. As far as I can tell, you're asking why in general explosive weapons are 'cheap' in FPS', whereas everybody else is saying why its cheap in CoD.

The short answer is both sides are right. In Call of Duty, the grenade launcher takes very little skill to use. All the normal weakpoints of the grenade launcher don't exist in CoD; it has a fairly short reload time, travels near instantly and has an incredibly large blast radius. These problems are compounded by the Danger Close and Scavenger perks. So if you're asking why the grenade launcher is cheap in CoD, I can only assume you haven't played the game much or are just not very good at understanding it.

However, the grenade launcher is quite balanced in some games, and even downright weak in others. Looking at a game that is fairly balanced considering the amount of content, Battlefield Bad Company 2. The grenade launcher in that game shoots fairly slowly and has a good blast radius. I suspect that they're actually fairly similar in size to CoD, but the maps in BC2 are about 6 times the size, so its a lot easier to handle.
Or, you could look at the new Medal of Honor game. The GL travels quickly, but shoots very slowly and has very limited ammo. Plus, you practically need a direct hit to kill somebody, negating the ability to kill from around cover.

[Mr._Blinky]

Okay, one other thing here is that people keep talking about different games. I have no idea how balanced or unbalanced explosives are in TF2, because I've only ever played a little on the 360, and I could never kill things for crap with the bazooka in BF42. All of my criticism is directed against and only against the Call of Duty Modern Warfare games.


Ok, the thing with the kill zones and blast radius, you are right, absolutely, the launchers have a much larger lethal zone. But the reason for that is simple. That machine gun? Its firing off rounds very fast one after another, you dont have to aim before pulling the trigger, just sweep your bullet spitting machine gun int the general direction and you will start killing him as soon as its possible to connect. If you over or underestimate, no big deal, hold down the fire button and adjust till he dies.

With a launcher you have one shot. One. You have to aim for the right general area, adjust for the direction he is heading in, if any, and then fire. If you jump the gun, or overestimate, too freaking bad. You missed, your target sees you, and you are perforated before you can finish reloading your second shot. Thats WHY it has a far more forgiving radius unlike bullets which have to be a direct hit. Because without that large radius, you would be a sniper with a crappy scope trying to kill anyone with it. It would literally be like trying to snipe someone without using the scope at all with one of the single shot rifles. Now, I will admit that the danger close and scavenger perks are over the top. But thats an issue with in game buffs, not the weapon type itself.

Honestly, this is contradicted by a lot of the points you yourself were making earlier, mostly related to speed. When was the last time in CoD that spraying and praying was ever a really good idea? As you yourself mentioned numerous times, this is a game where less than a second can mean the difference between life and death, so if you're trying to shoot you want to make damn sure that you're going to hit what you're aiming at. If you don't that guy either just sprints into cover and has another chance to kill you, this time without the disadvantage of being surprised, or he just has better accuracy and turns around and shoots you while you're sweeping your weapon back and forth. And even if you're adjusting quickly, cover is everywhere in CoD, meaning that they're probably behind something by the time you can correct your aim.

Grenade launcher? You don't have to hit them, you have to hit "somewhere over there". Okay, yeah, if you miss you're screwed, but that isn't a problem when it's really freaking hard to miss. They can't sprint into cover or turn around, because the moment you reveal your presence is the moment they die, not just get hit. And if they do go into cover, they can easily die anyways from splash damage, whereas bullet penetration kills are harder.

And lets think about what the disadvantage of that one shot really is here: situation A) You just straight up missed with either gun. If you miss with the assault rifle, opponent has time to turn around and return the favor, meaning the extra shots don't mean as much and you're probably dead anyway. Miss with the grenade launcher, you're just as dead, but the important thing is that you can't be more dead, and in either case you can save yourself by running into cover. So yeah, grenade might miss and get you killed, but so can the rifle and the grenade has a much better chance of doing the deed the first time. Remember, CoD is all about the speed you can kill someone, and a weapon that kills instantly is really damn good.

B) Two guys come at you from the same direction, you shoot at them. Assault rifle probably kills one guy quick, and then if you're fast enough you might have the bullets left to hose the other. Might. Grenade, you can probably take them both with one shot if they're close enough, and if you can't you can always sprint for cover. Again, that one grenade limit doesn't matter much when having 30 slower-to-kill shots still won't get that second guy.

C) Guys come from two different directions. Let's face it, in CoD this usually just means you're dead, because why the time you've killed one the other's probably hosed you. In either case, just as dead, so the one round doesn't really factor in.

D) One guy comes at you. And let's be honest, no matter how you're playing CoD this is by far the most likely scenario. With the rifle you need to shoot him before he shoots you, which is a test of reflexes and accuracy. With the launcher you need to shoot "somewhere near him" before he kills you, which is only a test of reflexes and even then you can still probably kill faster due to the grenades damage output. Hell, it's entirely possibly to shoot off a single panicked grenade and sprint for cover and still kill the other guy.


As for the white lyre, my comment on grenade launchers not being removed didnt mean that if it was unbalanced cod would remove them from the game, its that virtually all fps games have an explosive shell of some sort, and always have. Bazookas, grenade launchers, rocket launchers whatever. Most games have some variation of them and this has been the status quo for many years. If these grenade launcher weapons were really such a horrible unbalanced cheap weapon, then why do developers insist on including them with each new game that gets released? Especially since they seem to piss off people to a alrge extent.

Because a lot of games do put in balanced explosives. But some don't, and CoD is among those franchises.


Each weapon type counts as a different class. Some guns have big ammo clips, high damage, but HORRIBLE accuracy. Others have tiny clips, and great accuracy/damage, and every permutation in between. Grenade launchers are the odd man out because they are explosive, so they are high damage and accuracy doesnt count for as much. But thats offset by EXTREMELY limited clips, (ignoring that scavenger option) and slow reload times. The balance is there, its just a different style of balance because of how the weapon works compared to all the rest which act differently.

As I said before, the limited clip isn't so limited when all you need is one badly aimed shot to win. Does it have downsides? Of course. But the upsides are way greater.

[Sholos]

If the grenade launcher is so great, why don't skilled players use it more? If it's not that great, why do skilled players complain? Are they just that insecure that they can't handle occasionally getting killed by someone "beneath" them?

The fact is that the grenade launcher gives new players something that they can actually do without sitting around getting killed all the time. Maybe some people want just the elite to be able to enjoy themselves, but I, many other gamers, and certainly the companies involved want more people to be able to easily access the game without being an expert. Go play DotA if you hate newbies.

[Sarco_Phage]

Ok, the thing with the kill zones and blast radius, you are right, absolutely, the launchers have a much larger lethal zone. But the reason for that is simple. That machine gun? Its firing off rounds very fast one after another, you dont have to aim before pulling the trigger, just sweep your bullet spitting machine gun int the general direction and you will start killing him as soon as its possible to connect. If you over or underestimate, no big deal, hold down the fire button and adjust till he dies.

What dude, no no no. In close-in combat, yeah, you might kill a guy with a machine gun by just firing at random, but at medium and long range you won't be hitting anyone before they notice and pop you with a couple aimed shots.

Granted, most CoD games are filled with knife-wielding psychopaths, dual wielding machine pistols, but skill counts for far more at range.

[Mr._Blinky]

If the grenade launcher is so great, why don't skilled players use it more? If it's not that great, why do skilled players complain? Are they just that insecure that they can't handle occasionally getting killed by someone "beneath" them?

The fact is that the grenade launcher gives new players something that they can actually do without sitting around getting killed all the time. Maybe some people want just the elite to be able to enjoy themselves, but I, many other gamers, and certainly the companies involved want more people to be able to easily access the game without being an expert. Go play DotA if you hate newbies.

...because veteran players do use it? You need to be pretty high level to be getting One Man Army Lvl 2+Danger Close Lvl 2, and most of the people I see with that combo also have their weapons tricked out with higher-level camo, so they've clearly been playing a while. It's called the noob tube because even newbies can be stupidly effective with it, but that same over-powered nature also means that those veteran players who care more about winning than balanced play use it too, and also means that with the higher level perks it goes from being over-powered to almost game breaking. I'm a veteran player and I don't use it, but that's because I don't find it to be a fun weapon rather than any sort of concern for its effectiveness.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm running around on the map, I have my kitted-out, blinged-out Rapid Fire/ Extended Magazine MP5k,I have the stopping power perk. I have the Steady Aim perk. I am golden.
We turn the corner at the same time, and it's a test of reflexes and ping speed as to who pulls the trigger first.
I win.
-bullet-bullet-
You were less than a tenth of a second behind me, normally, I would still win, but you have an ace up your sleeve, you're running around with an assault rifle, kitted out with the M-203. '203 active, just in case. You pull the trigger.
-thuwmp-

I'm staring at the killcam while you scavanger off my corpse. I hit you both times, centre mass. Any other engagement, I would have the victory.
You laugh that annoying laugh into my headset. "LOLNOOBFAG" you say as you roll in the delicious, delicious XP you gained from my thoughtless murder.

...
That's why people hate the "Noob Tube".

[Zeful]

That's why people hate the "Noob Tube".

So this then? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeGIlxQM8EM) (starts at 33 seconds).

But then I've heard that players also hated the Juggernaut perk, which simply removed stopping power's benefit's, which is why it was removed from MW2.

[Mr._Blinky]

So this then? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeGIlxQM8EM) (starts at 33 seconds).

But then I've heard that players also hated the Juggernaut perk, which simply removed stopping power's benefit's, which is why it was removed from MW2.

Yup, pretty much. When someone can just train their gun on a general area and wait for someone to walk into the killzone, it's a cheap weapon.

Also, I never really had a huge problem with Juggernaut, and this is speaking as someone who only ever had it used against them, not by them. I did hear people complain about it and it could get pretty annoying at times, but I was almost always using Stopping Power anyway so I didn't mind much, and it was never as annoying as a noob tuber.

[Traab]

So this then? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeGIlxQM8EM) (starts at 33 seconds).

But then I've heard that players also hated the Juggernaut perk, which simply removed stopping power's benefit's, which is why it was removed from MW2.


Now, im watching that video and you know what im seeing? Im seeing the tuber getting shot in the head while his grenade is making its relatively slow trip through the air to get that mutual kill. Im seeing that grenade launcher taking two shots to kill a guy hiding inside a building because he didnt move AWAY from the big open window after the first explosion failed to kill him. Im watching the guy using his gun to rack up kill after kill, sometimes several within a second or two of each other. What im not seeing in the video is a real reason why grenade launchers are so unfair. Yeah, the grenade launcher got himself several kills as well, how is that unfair? Is he supposed to NOT be able to kill people or something?

[The Linker]

The problem here is that that guy doesn't appear to be very good -- at least, not as good as the one recording. But he's still blowin' him up.

Like, look at 1:09. Any sensible player would have gotten behind cover when he's reloading. He fires his nade and then kinda watches. In plain sight. Framed by the window he just fired his nade from. Standing there. Reloading.

Not getting behind cover when you're reloading is... sort of something skilled players shouldn't be doing, wouldn't you agree? :smalltongue:

As for the recording player 'not getting away from the open window' -- I assume you mean at 1:38 -- I couldn't tell where that first explosion came from. He got out of line of sight of two of the windows. They just happened to be the wrong ones.

[Traab]

The thing is, someone cleared lobbed an explosive into that room. There was a staircase right behind him. Run down it, wait 5 seconds for all that red to go away, then head back up. Chances are the tuber would have already fired his second and final grenade and not hit anything and he could go back to gunning down legions of other players. But that wasnt my main point, it was more to cover the fact that the first grenade didnt kill him. It hurt him yes, but damage is very temporary in cod2. I agree the grenade launcher isnt the hardest weapon to use, but then again, very few of the weapons have any real challenge to them. Point the sights at what you want to kill, press the fire button, get the kill. That about covers it for the various weapons. You know, barring the riot shield. No sights on that bad boy. :p

[deuxhero]

Console gamers just love to complain online. No one will kickban them for whining more than they play. Also, console FPSes have VERY slow characters who could never outrun a rocket no matter how far away it is seen coming.

Doomguy with his 50 MPH run (before strafe run) could easily dodge stuff.

[The Linker]

My first instinct was that someone was downstairs, and maybe chucked a regular grenade up the stairs. Granted, of course, I would have then moved to behind the stairs to ambush him if he ventured up to finish the job. So clearly this player didn't think the same thing I did.

The second nade would have killed Mr. Recording guy no matter how hurt he was. It kind of sucks to see a grenade fly through the window and kill you, knowing you have no idea where it's coming from and don't have a line-of-sight to the guy.

Check out this teamfortress.com blog post: (http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477)


The second [factor to making a death a learning experience] was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive.

This is the root cause, I think. One of the last deaths in that video -- what could that guy have done? He wasn't engaged with that guy. He couldn't have. The moment he turned the corner he blew up. They both never even knew the other existed. That's what's aggravating. Knowing someone's out there while simultaneously not being able to do a thing about it.

If you want a real answer to "Why do people hate noob tubers," that may be it. Was that player 'engaged' with the player who lobbed a nade through the window? He didn't know where he was, he searched for him, dove out of line of sight, and still died. As much as he tried to and wanted to engage that guy, all he had to go on was 'explosion somewhere in room'. And then he died.

[Sarco_Phage]

Console gamers just love to complain online. No one will kickban them for whining more than they play. Also, console FPSes have VERY slow characters who could never outrun a rocket no matter how far away it is seen coming.

Doomguy with his 50 MPH run (before strafe run) could easily dodge stuff.

Dude.

It's a Rocket.

I mean, Doomguy is Doomguy, it's understandable, but a human soldier is gonna have a hard time dodging a fast moving explosive.

[Murska]

A viewpoint on why explosives can also be annoying in other games:

One of the more frustrating ways to die is when you run into someone at a close range, both of you are taken by surprise. You begin shooting, he has an explosive weapon and panics, shoots and both of you blow up.

He gets a kill and a selfkill, which is usually just a death. You get a death. No kill for you. There was no way for you to avoid dying, no way to kill the enemy before he killed himself, nothing to be done.

Another frustrating way to die, mainly in games with either infinite ammo or easy to replenish ammo: You're moving towards the frontline after spawning. Suddenly, a grenade comes flying in from above and boom, you're gone. A completely random explosive shot in the general direction of the enemy spawn can kill, and there's nothing the poor victim could possibly have done. Bullets don't do that - completely random bullet spray very rarely kills anyone, since if you're hit by a random bullet you usually have more than enough time to take cover from the rest of the spray, since it isn't aimed.

That's also one of the reasons people tend to hate snipers: Getting killed in a way that leaves you feeling "There was nothing I could possibly have done to prevent that", whether or not it's actually a correct sentiment, is generally very frustrating. Especially when compounded with the fact that the one who killed you didn't actually need much skill for it - he didn't have to train for hundreds of hours to be able to perfectly aim his machinegun burst into your head from a huge range in midair while both of you were moving, he just had to click in your general direction and get lucky.

If you're machinegunned down, you usually have time to react, if it's only time to realize that you're going to die and there's no way for you to avoid that. If you have time to react, you can attempt to take cover or shoot, even if it's almost or totally impossible. That makes you feel like you've got some control over your fate. If you're just walking along and BOOM you're dead like some deity just decided to snuff you out of existance, you don't get that feeling.

As a final anecdote: In one FPS-game, I was watching an enemy approach route with a bolt-action rifle that kills with one headshot or two bodyshots. I'd been killing a couple enemies, and it was a Survival game so if you died you were dead for the remainder of the round. However, I hadn't noticed that my team had lost control of another attack route.

In fact, I didn't realize that before the first submachinegun shot hit me in the back. It's 3-5 shots to kill with that weapon from such a close range and the enemy was scant meters from me. At the exact moment I realized I was being shot at, I blindly slashed my mouse across the mat, turning around, and clicked. A shot resounded, and the chat erupted in cheers and calls of "hax aimbot" as my rifle headshotted the enemy right behind me, one bullet before I would have died.

Now that was luck. I reacted extremely fast, I clicked at the exact right time and moved the exact right amount, but nobody would call it skill (except for the reaction part) because I couldn't do it again if I wanted to. But it was a one-in-a-million killshot that I still, years later, remember as an extremely satisfying moment and also a good example why having even that tiny fraction of a second to react means everything - maybe not mechanically, but psychologically.

[Triaxx]

Noob Tubes: Now that I think on it, they aren't just annoying in the hands of humans. Perfect Dark is a great game, and the multiplayer is fun with bots.

Unless you've got any explosives. Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher, Super Dragon, even the Phoenix. Prepare to die. A lot. Over. And over. And Over.

It'd be unplayable if you couldn't eliminate those weapons.

[Triscuitable]

"There's probably people in that general direction."

*PA-THUNK*

*Kill*

trollface.jpg

Well said, Xanatos.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by psilontech View Post
"There's probably people in that general direction."

*PA-THUNK*

*Kill*

trollface.jpg
Well said, Xanatos.

Meh, too be honest I could write up a similar response for other weapons too.

Player Itubejurfaz enters the game

Player Itubejurfaz "Aww yeah! Time to ki.."

Player Ituberjurfaz has been headshot by Player Sniperzinyerdiaperz

Player Sniperzinyerdiaperz "keke"

Player Itubejurfaz respawns

Player Itubejurfaz "Ok this time ill ki.."

Player Itubejurfaz has been headshot by Player Twonoobsonesnipe

Player Twonoobsonesnipe "gg noob"

Heh, I have another one for knifers but I dont want to bother typing it out. That being said, i dont think snipers are op, im just saying that anecdotal evidence and even films arent truly proof, because lets face it, if I wanted to, I am sure I could either find, or put together a film showing some guy with a riot shield earning a nuke kill streak bashing people to death but that wouldnt be proof that its overpowered or a cheap weapon. I could do the same for every single weapon and subset of the weapon types and all it would prove is that its possible to rack up a lot of kills no matter what weapon you use.

Are grenade launchers easy to use? Yes. Are they easy to use well? No more so than any other weapon type. As for the whole, "Theres probably people in that direction" line. Thats just silly. First of all, noone but a moron will be launching his limited shells without KNOWING there is a person there. For example, they saw him run past a window and know that within the next three seconds he will come around that corner.

Even then, are you any less dead due to being blown up than you would be a half second later when you walked around that corner and get a sniper round in your face instead? Either way you died without ever seeing who killed you. You died instantly, with no hope of fighting back, and there was no way short of mastering divination that you could have avoided that death. Are sniper rifles noob weapons now? How about one of those caffeinated energizer bunnies that sprint all over the map knifing people as they go? You walk around that corner and wind up face to face with Jason as he jams his machete in your gut for an instant kill. At least you got to see the guy who killed you this time. Not that you could do anything about it.

[Sarco_Phage]

Heh, I have another one for knifers but I dont want to bother typing it out. That being said, i dont think snipers are op, im just saying that anecdotal evidence and even films arent truly proof, because lets face it, if I wanted to, I am sure I could either find, or put together a film showing some guy with a riot shield earning a nuke kill streak bashing people to death but that wouldnt be proof that its overpowered or a cheap weapon. I could do the same for every single weapon and subset of the weapon types and all it would prove is that its possible to rack up a lot of kills no matter what weapon you use.

It's actually almost impossible to do that with a riot shield unless you have some skill, since most intelligent players will just shoot you in the feet... or knife you once you go for the shield bash.

The launcher is awesome and cheap, that's why I love it. It's easy to use compared to every other weapon and gets you a kill without aiming.

[Traab]

It's actually almost impossible to do that with a riot shield unless you have some skill, since most intelligent players will just shoot you in the feet... or knife you once you go for the shield bash.

The launcher is awesome and cheap, that's why I love it. It's easy to use compared to every other weapon and gets you a kill without aiming.
Its certainly not possible for me. So far my personal best is 7 kills before I got the semtex to the shield and blew up. lol But then, im not exactly a hardcore player. Oh and yes yes yes, the rocket launcher so awesomely easy you dont have to point it at anything, just pull the trigger and everyone else dies! YAAAY!

[The Linker]

First of all, noone but a moron will be launching his limited shells without KNOWING there is a person there.

Ah-HA! So you ADMIT the tuber in that video was a moron! And he was still getting kills! :smalltongue:


Even then, are you any less dead due to being blown up than you would be a half second later when you walked around that corner and get a sniper round in your face instead? Either way you died without ever seeing who killed you. You died instantly, with no hope of fighting back, and there was no way short of mastering divination that you could have avoided that death.

But you can learn from such a death. You know that he couldn't have sniped you in the face without seeing you. Your presence triggered the shot explicitly. So you have some options, like quickly sprinting across the field of view and dodging to make him miss. You can approach the same place from a different angle. You could go around. Snipers tend to stay in one spot, so now you know where he is.

Above you all, you can think, "Man, I should have been more careful of snipers."

That nade was completely random. The enemy shot it not knowing who, if anyone, was over there. Basically, you can say 'An explosion will happen at coordinates 45.87, 34.12 at 5 minutes and 23 seconds into the match, and it sucks to be you if you're there!' Being more careful would not help.

Your death is completely irrelevant to your playing or skill.


How about one of those caffeinated energizer bunnies that sprint all over the map knifing people as they go? You walk around that corner and wind up face to face with Jason as he jams his machete in your gut for an instant kill. At least you got to see the guy who killed you this time. Not that you could do anything about it.

C'mon. You know you can press the knife button faster. Listen for footsteps as you go or something. Yer stretching.

[Mr._Blinky]

And now that I think about it, I realized the thing about the noob tube in CoD that really pisses me off: the fact that you can pretty much ignore cover. In CoD, cover is king, because either the damage is too minor on penetration to kill you or they just can't see you well enough to accurately get you. Don't get me wrong, you can certainly kill someone through cover with bullets (this is one of the reasons I think FMJ is really underrated), but it takes skill to do it consistently.

The issue here is that the noob tube requires no skill to kill someone who's in cover. If I'm being shot at by a guy with an assault rifle, I'll likely duck around a corner and wait for my health to recharge before shooting back. If I'm behind a building he needs to try and flank around, which gives me a clear shot at him too, and if I'm behind a thin wall he needs to know exactly where I am to shoot me. Not so with the M203, where if I duck behind a corner they can just easily plunk a grenade down right next to me, meaning I have no chance of fighting back.

[Triaxx]

Knifers beat Snipers. Tubers beat Knifers. Snipers beat Tubers.

[Traab]

Ah-HA! So you ADMIT the tuber in that video was a moron! And he was still getting kills! :smalltongue:



But you can learn from such a death. You know that he couldn't have sniped you in the face without seeing you. Your presence triggered the shot explicitly. So you have some options, like quickly sprinting across the field of view and dodging to make him miss. You can approach the same place from a different angle. You could go around. Snipers tend to stay in one spot, so now you know where he is.

Above you all, you can think, "Man, I should have been more careful of snipers."

That nade was completely random. The enemy shot it not knowing who, if anyone, was over there. Basically, you can say 'An explosion will happen at coordinates 45.87, 34.12 at 5 minutes and 23 seconds into the match, and it sucks to be you if you're there!' Being more careful would not help.

Your death is completely irrelevant to your playing or skill.



C'mon. You know you can press the knife button faster. Listen for footsteps as you go or something. Yer stretching.


1) I think moron might be a bit harsh, but he was definately not an expert in the game. But anyone can get kills at random, just look at me! lol

2) Yeah, and you can learn to be careful around openings like windows and door frames in the case of rockets too. In both cases the guy saw you and was waiting for you to enter ground zero for your upcoming death. The same lessons apply to a sniper getting you the second you walk past that doorframe, or the grenade blowing you up a half second earlier. Being spotted, without spotting the other guy yourself = death. Thats the case against any weapon.

3) Actually, im really not. Personally I dont keep my volume that high, the explosions and gunfire is too loud so no footsteps for me.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

From a post on MW2 from my pseudo-gaming blog...


1. Knives make you invincible.
Ok, that's an exaggeration on my part. I apologize. It's actually the act of stabbing itself that makes you invincible. While in the act of engaging in a lunging stab from about six or seven feet away, your body appears to enter an alternate state of being wherein bullets and shotgun rounds appear to have no discernable effect on your health. I'm not sure if the military is aware of this yet, but as bayonets have been equipped to rifles for centuries now, I'm sure they've experimented with this phenomenon. The fact that we continue to put bullets in our guns suggests to me that perhaps this isn't the height of realism.

[The Linker]

Being spotted, without spotting the other guy yourself = death. Thats the case against any weapon.

Wha-- the noob tuber DIDN'T SPOT HIM. He fired it RANDOMLY. The player in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeGIlxQM8EM) (3:41) was NOT IN LINE OF SIGHT when the nade was fired, and the tuber was NOT AWARE THERE WAS ANYONE THERE. I mean, unless he had a wall hack.

You cannot get a kill like that with any rate of success with a sniper rifle. And you CERTAINLY cannot do it with a melee knife.


3) Actually, im really not. Personally I dont keep my volume that high, the explosions and gunfire is too loud so no footsteps for me.

That was one example of two. Press the knife button faster, then. It's not an unavoidable death.

[ScionoftheVoid]

That was one example of two. Press the knife button faster, then. It's not an unavoidable death.

Doesn't that apply equally to the "noob tuber" then? I'm not experienced in such games but if it works against a knifing and is in melee range I'd assume it works against 'nades and other explosives too.

[The Linker]

Doesn't that apply equally to the "noob tuber" then? I'm not experienced in such games but if it works against a knifing and is in melee range I'd assume it works against 'nades and other explosives too.

? :smallconfused:

When I say 'press the knife button faster' I mean 'stab him before he stabs you', is all. Referring to when you walk around a corner and run into a guy who tries to stab you.

[Ogremindes]

Not so with the M203, where if I duck behind a corner they can just easily plunk a grenade down right next to me...

Uh, isn't that what grenades are for? Dealing with enemies in cover, that is.

[ScionoftheVoid]

? :smallconfused:

When I say 'press the knife button faster' I mean 'stab him before he stabs you', is all. Referring to when you walk around a corner and run into a guy who tries to stab you.

So doesn't shooting faster than the other guy work?

[Traab]

So doesn't shooting faster than the other guy work?


Ah but therein lies the issue. I only have to press my button once to launch a lethal rocket at you. You have to hit me with many bullets to kill me. Therefore at best you can hope for a mutual kill. You have to riddle me with bullets before I can locate, sight in on, and fire upon you. If I pull that trigger an instant before I die, so do you. Thats the biggest problem most tend to have with rockets. That and the cover issue.

[The Linker]

So doesn't shooting faster than the other guy work?

Not if he's not in your line of sight, him having fired a nade without even knowing you exist. Not much you can do to not die to that.

But for the 'walk around the corner and see noob tuber as he sees you' situation, as I mentioned in a previous post, it's much easier to aim with the tube, and you only need to fire one shot -- as such, getting a grenade kill takes much less time than aiming at center mass and firing several shots as you would with an SMG. The only penalty being if that you miss with that one shot, you're likely dead. Of course, the explosion will still rock the enemy's screen and throw off his aim... hmm. :smalltongue:

Edit: Uh... what he said. ^ :smalleek:


Look.

Here is a guy. Pretend you're not actually on a tank, there, and that guy you see is an enemy.

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/598/598743/battlefield-2-20050324025836055-000.jpg

20 feet out, maybe? Considered a short-range encounter.

Using bullets. Here's where you have to aim to deal damage. Red zones are kill shots, yellow zones are places where you'll deal damage but not kill. You must hit the red zone once, or the yellow zone multiple times. And he's moving!

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2968/battlefield2guns.jpg

Using a grenade launcher. Here's where you have to aim to deal damage. Red zones are again kill shots, with yellow zones merely doing damage. You must hit the red zone once, or the yellow zone multiple times. (Note that in this instance red zones are not where the grenade must LAND, but where you must aim the reticule.)

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7699/battlefield2nades.jpg

...Are bullets really just as easy to hit with as grenades? :smallconfused:

[ScionoftheVoid]

Not if he's not in your line of sight, him having fired a nade without even knowing you exist. Not much you can do to not die to that.

But as I mentioned in a previous post, it's much easier to aim with the tube, and you only need to fire one shot -- as such, getting a grenade kill takes much less time than aiming at center mass and firing several shots as you would with an SMG.

Edit: Uh... what he said. ^ :smalleek:

I was responding only to the scenario of walking round a corner, in which case you should be aimed at about head height anyway and it wouldn't take long to aim correctly or just fire and hope (which is more or less what the other person is doing). And unless you have infinite ammunition, firing when you don't know someone is there is stupid with any weapon, and shouldn't really be taken into account.

Of course, I don't tend to play these games and don't really see the problem with a weapon with a lower floor for effectiveness. The people who know what they're doing will still be better, and their skill will be acknowledged by all but the noob tubers they're looking down their noses at anyway. It's only a game, until it isn't at which point the noob tuber will be taken out despite their weapon choice. Sorry, I'll just go away now.

[The Linker]

And unless you have infinite ammunition, firing when you don't know someone is there is stupid with any weapon, and shouldn't really be taken into account.

Unless it works, right? :smalltongue:


Of course, I don't tend to play these games and don't really see the problem with a weapon with a lower floor for effectiveness. The people who know what they're doing will still be better[...]

I think therein lies the issue, though. The people who are more skilled often don't do better than the ones who carry the grenade launcher.

I mean, the top of the top will do better than the average schlub with a grenade launcher, but I do believe there is a chunk of space on the effectiveness graph where 'has a grenade launcher' can fill in for 'skill'. How big that is of course up for debate.


Sorry, I'll just go away now.

Awww... :smallfrown:


Man, I really want to play MW2 now. Wish it wasn't uninstalled. :smallconfused:

[Traab]

Unless it works, right?

Yeah, the 2 times out of 100 that your randomly launched rocket into a room you dont know if anyone is in actually hits someone. Too bad the rest of the time you are just wasting your two freaking shots. You would have equal luck taking a machine gun and firing it through a doorway hoping someone decides to walk out it.

[Arbitrarity]

And unless you have infinite ammunition, firing when you don't know someone is there is stupid with any weapon, and shouldn't really be taken into account.

One Man Army
Scavenger

[Mr._Blinky]

Uh, isn't that what grenades are for? Dealing with enemies in cover, that is.

Well, yeah. But just because a weapon is doing what it was meant to do doesn't mean it's not overpowered. The issue here is that it's a weapon that is better at straight-up combat, and pretty much ignores the one defense most players have against being shot at. It may be designed to hit people in cover, but when cover is half of the gameplay then that's a broken ability. Regular grenades are harder to arc correctly, don't explode on impact unless you time them perfectly, bounce around, can get thrown back, etc., so their ability to kill guys in cover is far more dependent on skill than what is essentially a gun that can kill anyone it hits in the general vicinity of.

[ScionoftheVoid]

One Man Army
Scavenger

I have no idea what those are apart from vague references earlier in the discussion, but I'd assumed they only worked if you actually got someone. Not likely to happen if you waste your shots shooting at nothing. Even if they mean you can replenish ammunition, it still takes skill with other weapons, making the complaints about lack of skill invalid.

Also, I'm fairly sure (again, never heard of them before reading the thread) those are only in one particular game, where the discussion is actually game-neutral.

Okay, so I'm not quite gone, my temper decided that I was going to post at one in the morning because someone was being obtuse on the internet. Please don't take me seriously if I sound like an idiot. On the other hand, do tell me so I can remove the evidence.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I have no idea what those are apart from vague references earlier in the discussion...

One Man Army replaces your secondary weapon with a backpack that lets you changes classes while in-field - and also replenishes ammunition.
Scavenger lets you pick up ammo off corpses.

[ScionoftheVoid]

One Man Army replaces your secondary weapon with a backpack that lets you changes classes while in-field - and also replenishes ammunition.
Scavenger lets you pick up ammo off corpses.

So at least one of them doesn't actually allow you to go firing off grenades at shadows without having skill in other weapons. The other one just seems very very powerful, in which case the fault lies with it.

[Murska]

Well, in most games you can replenish your ammo in some way that is usually rather easy to do.

In my experience, it's a rare happening where I die to a sniper without having any idea I was about to be sniped. This is because if I am in an area where I can be sniped, I'm constantly moving and so the enemy needs to aim carefully, which takes a moment. And if the enemy can see me and begin to aim, I can see him. It happens, but not very often.

Also, do not understate the success rate of random explosives. I admit that it takes a degree of skill but it's not particularly difficult to figure out which parts of the map are most likely to have people, especially in the beginning of a match with fixed spawns. From there it's a short step to firing a rifle grenade into one of these areas right after you spawn, killing often even multiple enemies. In some maps it's compounded by the fact that if the enemy team decides to avoid these grenades by staying behind cover in their base, then they won't get to the middle of the map to occupy positions and so will be in a much worse position for the rest of the round.

Also, two grenades per life - if you assume that you'll get one kill with near 100% certainty because of the fact that it's almost impossible for you to lose in a situation where you see an enemy, and that it's quite likely for you to get another kill as well, after which you will be able to replenish your ammo or just use another gun until you die... well, if you kill more than one person per life, you're winning the round for your team. Besides, all too often shooting an explosive into a room where you think somebody might be lets you make certain whereas somebody without explosives would have to walk in and probably die if an enemy actually was there.

[warty goblin]

A few notes from other games:

When I played Enemy Territory: Quake Wars online, one of the most effective strategies was to use the rocket launcher as an anti-personnel weapon. This in spite of an arced trajectory, glacial reload time, seriosly slowing the user down when equipped, and a short charge up before one could even fire the damn thing. Unless playing against seriously skilled marskmen, one could usually survive to get the shot off, and nearly always get at least one kill out of it. Against a group one could probably get two or three kills, and then switch out to the machine pistol until a lull in the fight, before reloading the big gun.

In that game I found the actual underbarrel grenade launcher to be of limited utility for taking out enemy infantry, the shot was too slow, players too mobile, and the maps and weapons geared towards longer ranged engagements. Worked absolutely beautifully for knocking out vehicles and turrets though.

When I played Brink, I found the m203 to be of generally limited use. Partly this was because the open maps and accurate weapons geared combat towards long range engagements, and the 203 occupied the same upgrade slot as any sort of optics*. It was a serious disadvantage to get into a firefight with only iron sights against dudes with reflex and ACOGs most of the time, and usually it was far enough away to make the rifle grenade hard to hit with anyway.

The RPG however was more or less a free kill.


*Don't think about it.

[Lhurgyof]

Heh, you must not play Halo Much.

Whenever I play Halo, the strategy is pretty much "Get the best gun on the map and camp.", when Vehicles aren't involved anyways.

So, it ends up being one team gets the sword/rocket launcher/hammer and camps. And they usually win.

In Left 4 Dead, the Grenade Launcher is FAR from optimal (but can completely wreck a tank), but it (and explosive ammo) can knockback special infected, which is probably the MOST annoying thing in versus.

Imagine having your character stumble around constantly for like 8 seconds while your healthbar depletes. Yep. Worse than a shotgun to the head, slow stumbly death.


Oh, and they also take out vehicles easily for multi-kills, and can help change the tide of battle in a vehicle-heavy map.




Here's why the phrase exists:

1. It is simple.
2. It implies a lack of skill on the part of someone who isn't the speaker.

I don't mean to say that FPS players are petty, infantile, trash-talking bundles of personal insecurity and egotism. That's a gross generalization and untrue for the vast proportion of the community. That said, there exists a vocal minority who take these things way too seriously and expend a great deal of time and bytes loudly establishing their supremacy over all that is not them, and it is from those players that I've noticed phrases like this arising.

Heh, there are way too many petty, infantile, etc. etc. people in FPS'. Halo 3 has a lot, Left 4 Dead is just basically ragequitters and random booters, and then you have Call of Duty... Oh the stories I've heard.

But, luckily enough, Left 4 Dead 2 and Halo: Reach seem pretty nice and clean. :smallsmile:

[Shas aia Toriia]

And here's another point about the grenade launcher, and this is something I did not a few hours ago. I was in building with 1 window, and there was another guy camping some rocks. We both knew where each other were, but he was already aiming at the window, and I was behind it.
What do I do for an easy kill? Switch to grenade launcher. I strafe to the window, tap the fire trigger once and strafe away. The other guy gets to react first, and fires a few bullets at me which connect. Too bad I'm now behind a wall, so he can't kill me while my hastily aimed grenade makes short work of him.
Victory noob tube.