[3.5] Extra Spell "cheese"

[Thurbane]

Just wondering about using some cheese with Extra Spell.

Say you’ve got a 6th level Sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell. It’s generally accepted that this allows him to cast 4th level spells (i.e. a 3rd or lower level spell Heightened to 4th, and cast using two 3rd level slots, via VS).

Extra Spell says:

You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.

Could the example character above, take Extra Spell at 6th level, and use it get an extra 3rd level spell known, since technically the highest level of spells he can cast is 4th?

Also, as Extra Spell is generally considered a pretty weak feat, would there be any balance issues allowing this?

Cheers - T

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know, but if so it would get cheesy with Sanctum Spell I believe. Extra slot above your highest normal slot.

[Raendyn]

Does Extra spell allows you to get spells that aren't part of your list?

e.g. can a wizard choose a spell from the cleric list?

[MeeposFire]

Does Extra spell allows you to get spells that aren't part of your list?

e.g. can a wizard choose a spell from the cleric list?

Officially no though some DMs like to make an exception to this.

[Cog]

Does Extra spell allows you to get spells that aren't part of your list?
This is debated about half as often as we get Monk threads. In the FAQ, the official answer was no. FAQ are just readings of the rules, though, not errata, and the feat itself doesn't contain any such restriction (if only because it's so briefly worded)/

[Yora]

Okay, by RAW you could do that to get 3rd level spells.
But I think lots of DM would not allow that very liberal reading of "able to cast 4th level spells".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You may as well just skip both Extra Spell and Heighten Spell and pick up a Bloodline feat from Dragon magazine. Each one grants you a specific spell known of every spell level, all thematically similar, so you could use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a higher level spell than otherwise available at any given level.

[Sacrieur]

Does Extra spell allows you to get spells that aren't part of your list?

e.g. can a wizard choose a spell from the cleric list?

A sorcerer can learn any arcane spell. Unlike a wizard, who must stick within sorc/wiz spells, he can venture out of it.


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.
source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)

This means that a sorcerer can learn any arcane spell. Even from lists exclusive to certain classes, supposing he has learned it via special study.

[dextercorvia]

You may as well just skip both Extra Spell and Heighten Spell and pick up a Bloodline feat from Dragon magazine. Each one grants you a specific spell known of every spell level, all thematically similar, so you could use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a higher level spell than otherwise available at any given level.

Most of those spells are crappy though. I find it hard to pick a bloodline with 2-3 spells in a single Bloodline that I really want for my Sorcerer. It is more economical, featwise, but you get what you pay for.

[Thurbane]

You may as well just skip both Extra Spell and Heighten Spell and pick up a Bloodline feat from Dragon magazine. Each one grants you a specific spell known of every spell level, all thematically similar, so you could use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a higher level spell than otherwise available at any given level.
True, if your game uses Dragon material.

A sorcerer can learn any arcane spell. Unlike a wizard, who must stick within sorc/wiz spells, he can venture out of it.


source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)

This means that a sorcerer can learn any arcane spell. Even from lists exclusive to certain classes, supposing he has learned it via special study.
Yeah, that's another one that's hotly debated. Most take the wording to mean that it includes new spells that the sorcerer researches himself, or Sor/Wiz spells from esoteric sources (like splatbooks), rather than just being able to claim any arcane spell from any arcane spell list.

[erikun]

This means that a sorcerer can learn any arcane spell. Even from lists exclusive to certain classes, supposing he has learned it via special study.
If you are going with that logic, what's to limit you to arcane spells?


Could the example character above, take Extra Spell at 6th level, and use it get an extra 3rd level spell known, since technically the highest level of spells he can cast is 4th?
Ask your DM?

This is not something that I would allow, as a DM. If I felt that the feat was too weak and needed to allow spells from the highest level available, then I'd just change the feat. If not, then taking a Versatile Spellcaster "feat tax" would make it neither balanced nor allowable.

I suppose it could be interpreted that way by RAW, but the term "could be interpreted that way by RAW" allows the kookiest rules interpretations. And back to my previous point - if using Extra Spell this was to gain a 3rd level spell is acceptable, then why not just allow Extra Spell to do so normally and avoid the hassle?

[Thurbane]

Ask your DM?
Looking for a more-or-less RAW answer. Also, I'm the DM.

[Douglas]

By RAW, yes this trick works.

With certain other tricks to Heighten things more than one level above the slot used, it is even possible by RAW to use Extra Slot and Extra Spell for spell levels above your highest level slots. Few DMs would allow a player to actually use it that way, though.

[Sacrieur]

If you are going with that logic, what's to limit you to arcane spells?


A sorcerer casts arcane spells...

That would be RAW, good sir.

[erikun]

That would be RAW, good sir.
The text indicated that the Sorcerer can learn a new spell from the sorcerer/wizard list or "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." Of course they will be arcane spells when the sorcerer learns and casts them, but anyone can "gain some understanding of" divine spells.

It's the same Archivist trick, just applied in reverse.

[Draz74]

but if so it would get cheesy with Sanctum Spell

That's like saying "a Sword and Board Fighter is cheesy if he's also Pun-Pun."

[Coidzor]

True, if your game uses Dragon material.

Yeah, that's another one that's hotly debated. Most take the wording to mean that it includes new spells that the sorcerer researches himself, or Sor/Wiz spells from esoteric sources (like splatbooks), rather than just being able to claim any arcane spell from any arcane spell list.

Of course, the idea that splatbooks' spells must be from esoteric sources is also fairly questionable.

[Thurbane]

Of course, the idea that splatbooks' spells must be from esoteric sources is also fairly questionable.
True...just giving an example. The "esotericness" (?) of spells in non-core books is entirely dependant on the DM/campaign.

[Goonthegoof]

I think it's more the fact that the sorcerer entry contains that whereas the wizard entry specifically doesn't that makes it more likely it means any arcane spell. Personally that's how we play sorcerer in my group, they gain extra spell as a bonus feat whenever a wizard would gain a bonus feat.

[Snowbluff]

Use this to get a 17th level slot. Get Innate Spell. Choose a 9th level spell. Max cheese achieved. :smallcool:

[Wyntonian]

turn Unthread! Back, Ye Beast From Beyond The Grave! Back To The Tomb From Whence You Came! The Unflinching Light Of Heironeous Commands You!

[Snowbluff]

turn Unthread! Back, Ye Beast From Beyond The Grave! Back To The Tomb From Whence You Came! The Unflinching Light Of Heironeous Commands You!

It's okay, I have a 9th level SLA to fix this!

[hex0]

Officially no though some DMs like to make an exception to this.

Another exception/houserule is to allow spells from another list at 2 levels lower than normal. So a wizard with southern magician could get into Prestige Paladin or Ranger. Don't know why you'd want to, but hey! Or you could always snag some goodies from the Telflammor Shadowlord or Trapsmith list. :smallbiggrin: