If Not From the Gods, From Whence? Where Do Divine Spells Come from in Your Settings?

[wayfare]

I've run a few D&D games, and in most of them, serious questions about the metaphysics of magic comes into play (just how my group rolls). I think this a pretty much a setting question, and I'm curious to see how other GMs handle questions about the nature of magic.

What sort of fluff does magic carry in your game? Is there a clear history or origin to magic, or is it just there, a tool to be used like any other.

--wayfare

[wayfare]

To get things started. here are a few ways I've handled things:

-Arcane Spells are drawn from external manipulation of energy

-Arcane Spells are drawn from the weave (Forgotten Realms)

-Arcane Spells are powered by the stars (In this setting, each school of magic had a constellation that powered it)

-Divine Spells are powered by the gods, miracles requested by a cleric (generic setting, which i don't often use)

-Divine Spells are taught to mortals by the church. Higher level spells are taught by spirits or even by deities themselves in the form of visions. Divine spells are NOT powered by the gods (my standard choice)

Currently I am drawing up a few settings where:

-Magic is the result of alchemical alteration of bodily humors. Anyone can learn a set of spells by drinking an alchemical solution that changes the body.

[Thiyr]

Strangely, I'm a player in a game where this was something of a notable question. Specifically, the game is set in Ptolus, and for some reason, magic starts screwing up. As in, all magic, until fixed, acts as per wild magic. So we've been running around fixing it by means of convenient extraplanar dungeons, each themed around the school of magic we were fixing with it (and realizing slowly that the fact that it's as screwy as it is has cause the plane's purpose starting to go unfilled. It's a prison-plane for an elder evil type thing. Divination gave us some fun visions of what would happen if we screwed up. We should've realized it sooner, what with our getting out of a plane that we're locked into by literally every single god, but...yea.).

It was questioned early on how this would affect divine casters, and the answer received was "It will hit them, just a bit slower. Same with inherently magical creatures like, say, dragons". And then I got to meet the god of magic face to face. And watch him spontaneously have squirrels appear near him, look visually distorted, and hear relief at no longer being randomly frozen/lit on fire,electrocuted (we had fixed evocation). In other words, it's all the same, but divine casters get it slightly filtered by their deity of choice.

[Coidzor]

I've mostly just gone with the interpretation that CHA casting is brute forcing the universe with sheer will, WIS casting is intuitively knowing how to work within the universe to pull its strings with the aspect of one's will that is WIS and get what one wants, and INT casting is studying the way the universe works in order to find the right macros to use to get it to do what one wants for one's self.

Since *most* divine casting is keyed to wisdom, the way it's mostly about feeling one's way through the universe seems to fit in with the whole faith and belief thing that the classes have going for them.

Having a pool of energy that's just *the* Divine also works. Or the worldsoul or whatever, as opposed to arcane which seems to work better as something that is diffuse rather than concentrated, but that's just me probably.

[Feytalist]

Having a pool of energy that's just *the* Divine also works. Or the worldsoul or whatever, as opposed to arcane which seems to work better as something that is diffuse rather than concentrated, but that's just me probably.

Heh, you just kind of described the Final Fantasy universe.

I like the way FR handles it. Divine spells are from the various deities, arcane spells are from the Weave, which is also Mystra, who is also the deity of magic (a nice little trinity-thing going on there), so mages are clerics too, they just don't know it :smallbiggrin:

Oh and druids? They get their spells from the deities of nature. So druids? Also clerics.

Heh.

[Yora]

In my setting, divine spells are drawn from the natural energies of life that are everywhere in the natural world and the spiritworld, found in all creatures, objects, and even the air and water. I'd say 90% of all spellcasters are divine casters.

Arcane magic works the same, but draws energy from the magical essence of the Astral Plane.

[Fortuna]

The misused word! It burns!

I usually fluff divine spells as coming from within, tapping into the faith that moves mountains (5 Everests, if you're really good).

[the_archduke]

/grammar nazi

whence = from where

from whence = from from where

/grammar nazi

[Xodion]

In the game we have just started, Divine spells are a little bit meta - they come from the belief that the gods provide them :smalltongue:. They might come from the gods or they might not, but nobody knows or can prove either way. It provides some interesting theological discussion between our characters, with two of us being divine casters and all four having different in-game religions.

[Welknair]

Divine magic comes from the devotion of the caster. Says so in the PHB. Gods are simply a focus for this devotion. I'd allow a Cleric to worship Toast (Hopefully with a few ranks in Perform(Song) to sing "Yeah Toast!") and gain access to the Hunger and Fire Domains. This setup is corroborated by Deities and Demigods that states that Gods must have levels in Cleric to cast Cleric spells despite the common belief that Cleric spells are drawn from gods. Though they do cast Cleric spells spontaneously, since they are so attuned to this form of magic. Ur-Priests are just kidding themselves, devoting themselves to their hatred of gods and gaining spells as if they worshiped the god they loathe. Hate and love are both devotion.

But that's just my take.

[byaku rai]

In my setting, the existence of gods is debatable (there are not other planes so gods either don't exist or exist somewhere in the Material Plane.

Arcane magic is accomplished by manipulating the external flow of magic (sorta like the background radiation of the universe). Divine magic is accomplished by manipulating the flow of the user's own internal energy (think Eragon magic).

[Feytalist]

The FRCS on the other hand clearly states that divine magic comes from the deities. No deity, no spells. Even druids/rangers/etc have to have a patron deity.

Understood, it's only a single setting, but I find it amusing that almost no-one in this topic use deities as the source of divine magic. Underlying issues, maybe? :smallwink:

(Blimey, I have been ranting about FR a lot today :smalleek:)

[Coidzor]

Understood, it's only a single setting, but I find it amusing that almost no-one in this topic use deities as the source of divine magic. Underlying issues, maybe? :smallwink:

(Blimey, I have been ranting about FR a lot today :smalleek:)

Well, not everyone likes FR or even wants to play in FR every time, and the standard bit where clerics are tied to a god by default would get boring after awhile, especially if you forced all divine casters to do it. So it's an easy way to get some freshness relative to whatever else one had been doing.

Ratchet up Pelorite moralizing to 11 and see how many groups want it taking up that much of their game time.

[wayfare]

I've run a few D&D games, and in most of them, serious questions about the metaphysics of magic comes into play (just how my group rolls). I think this a pretty much a setting question, and I'm curious to see how other GMs handle questions about the nature of magic.

What sort of fluff does magic carry in your game? Is there a clear history or origin to magic, or is it just there, a tool to be used like any other.

--wayfare

Grammar Police Appeased :smallbiggrin:

[wayfare]

I think worshiping a deity is a perfectly valid option, i just dislike the idea that said deity can strip a character of their powers if they so chose.

In a Earthdawn game i'm currently in, my character is essentially a priest of the god of freedom. My group is very cool with it, despite the fact that his calling often requires him to object to party methods.

I thinks its all about play-style. Some people thing that playing a cleric is all about shouting a deities name when you run into battle. Other folks get way to into it, evangelizing to their party -- which can get old, real quick.

[imperialspectre]

Heh, you just kind of described the Final Fantasy universe.

I like the way FR handles it. Divine spells are from the various deities, arcane spells are from the Weave, which is also Mystra, who is also the deity of magic (a nice little trinity-thing going on there), so mages are clerics too, they just don't know it :smallbiggrin:

Oh and druids? They get their spells from the deities of nature. So druids? Also clerics.

Heh.

Technically, that happens because FR goes back to AD&D, where all divine casters were different customizations of the Priest class.

[Haarkla]

I've run a few D&D games, and in most of them, serious questions about the metaphysics of magic comes into play (just how my group rolls). I think this a pretty much a setting question, and I'm curious to see how other GMs handle questions about the nature of magic.

What sort of fluff does magic carry in your game? Is there a clear history or origin to magic, or is it just there, a tool to be used like any other.

--wayfare
Good clerics are granted their spells by God.

Neutral Clerics get spells from spirits.

Evil clerics get spells from fiends.

[Feytalist]

Well, not everyone likes FR or even wants to play in FR every time, and the standard bit where clerics are tied to a god by default would get boring after awhile, especially if you forced all divine casters to do it. So it's an easy way to get some freshness relative to whatever else one had been doing.

Ratchet up Pelorite moralizing to 11 and see how many groups want it taking up that much of their game time.

Yes, but that's what makes playing a cleric so interesting - for me at least. Otherwise, we might as well just degenerate into the generic "Priest" class, like imperialspectre said. Or start worshiping toast.

[big teej]

I've run a few D&D games, and in most of them, serious questions about the metaphysics of magic comes into play (just how my group rolls). I think this a pretty much a setting question, and I'm curious to see how other GMs handle questions about the nature of magic.

What sort of fluff does magic carry in your game? Is there a clear history or origin to magic, or is it just there, a tool to be used like any other.

--wayfare

given that my group is still getting a handle on even basic casting, we keep it pretty simple.

wizards study magic, and construct spells from ambient magic
Sorcerers do essentially the same thing, but through intuition and force of will
clerics, paladins, and rangers are granted spells by a diety.
druids are granted spells by proxy (they worship nature, and the nature dieties allow them to tap into the force of nature itself)

also, none of that 'cleric of a cause' crap...


I like the way FR handles it. Divine spells are from the various deities, arcane spells are from the Weave, which is also Mystra, who is also the deity of magic (a nice little trinity-thing going on there), so mages are clerics too, they just don't know it :smallbiggrin:

Oh and druids? They get their spells from the deities of nature. So druids? Also clerics.

Heh.

I find this amazingly humerous.
and highly reminiscent of how we do things.

[Coidzor]

Yes, but that's what makes playing a cleric so interesting - for me at least. Otherwise, we might as well just degenerate into the generic "Priest" class, like imperialspectre said. Or start worshiping toast.

Distracting from the game and causing hang-ups is what makes clerics interesting to you? :smallconfused: Because that's what I was describing.

[hangedman1984]

A divine caster reveres and worships a concept, usually that concept is embodied by a deity, occasionally it's not. The more the divine caster follows and becomes "in tune" with this concept, the more they are able to tap into the power it represents. It's almost like a form of sympathetic magick.

[McSmack]

I've been running exclusively in Eberron since it came out. But even in my homebrew the answer was simple-

No one knows. The End.

And I like this answer. Because it keeps the fundamental mystery alive. Characters can pick and choose that they believe, and debate it with others. But no one really knows for sure.

"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder."
— Tad Williams

[TheEmerged]

What the man in the street knows: the different belief systems view it differently. Hey, why should someone who worships Lolth have the same explanations for how things work as someone who worships an impersonal Light?

What the players know: at some point in the past, as the result of the arrogance of a king named Zardox, "the rules changed". This is when magic entered the world. At some point since there was a horrible cataclysm now known simply as the Fall, where the rules changed again, and made magic work the way it works now.

What the players will probably evenutally learn during the Epic tier.
There aren't really different power sources. They're just different techniques for manipulating the 'weave' of the 'world'. No, it's not the Matrix :smallyuk: but there is a reason I scare-quoted those. The patrons that most religions worship are really just powerful entities. Notice I said "most", but that's the point where I start running afoul of the board rules.