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Smokin Red
2011-04-13, 06:57 AM
Hi forum,

as I posted before, I started playing RPG's with a game called "The Dark Eye" ("Das Schwarze Auge" in german). It's an german (european) RPG and as I started playing it it was very simmilar to D&D 1e - so you had fighters, mages, elves, dwarves and adventurers as character options.

At the present day, and for quite some time now, they use a very different system. You choose a race, a cultural background and a profession.
And the list of professions is really comprehensive, from different schools of fighters to cooks, private tutors, beggars a.s.o.

After character generation the leveling is pretty generic. You can buy feats and skillpoints with your experience points, and go every way you want to (except magic, you have to choose your magiv talent at the very start)

I really do like this system, we had great sessions with a group composed of a dwarven master-cook, a gypsy charioteer and a viking warrior-priest.

My question is, has anybody of you experiences with a system similar to this (or even "The Dark Eye") or ideas how to implement something like it to D&D?

DeltaEmil
2011-04-13, 07:49 AM
For D&D 3.x, the thing most similar to the Dark Eye 4.x edition approach of generating a character would be regional feats, of which you can only have one. It's not all too detailed.
Fort D&D 4th edition, there is the idea of your 'background' and thematic powers.

erikun
2011-04-13, 03:26 PM
This sounds similar to lifepaths in Burning Wheel. They only apply during character creation, but you basically trace how the character lived their life before the start of the game. Your dwarf could have started off as a baker (1st lifepath) before serving time in the national military (2nd lifepath), then becoming a caravan guard (3rd lifepath) and turning to the merchant trade to help with his family's bread shop (4th lifepath). The various lifepaths your character goes through determines what skills they're exposed to - what skills they can start with - along with other features of the character - someone in the military would be familiar with military code, for example. More lifepaths generally mean a stronger character.

Burning Wheel doesn't have levels, though. You increase your individual skills through use, so a baker that wants to start sewing or using magic will need to start practicing from scratch.

Mastikator
2011-04-13, 03:51 PM
Yes.
A game one of my groups is playing is called Trudvagn, which is similar to what you describe, except taken a step even further.
You first select your race, then subrace. Then background (wilderness, village, city, study, war, etc), then archetype (warrior, rogue etc) and based off all these you start with a certain skills, which you then roll 1 or 2 D6's to determine how much in each you start off with. The archetype only defines your skillset to a small degree, and sets a guideline for which profession you're gonna have, but does in no way limit your skills.
You then get a certain amount of experience points and you spend the exp directly on skills, and feats. There's no actual leveling, the increase in power is linear instead of exponential and steady instead of discrete.

Hawriel
2011-04-13, 04:04 PM
My question is, has anybody of you experiences with a system similar to this (or even "The Dark Eye") or ideas how to implement something like it to D&D?

Now I have to ask when Dark Eye has professions are they basicly arctyps that preset base skills and stats to fit a role? I just want to make sure, thats the assumption Im running on by what you've said.

For D20/3.X system I think the closest thing ive seen is Mutants and Masterminds. M&M does not use a level system like D&D. It can levels of power the DM can set which are ruffly equal to the same level in D&D.

The way a M&M character advances is to collect points to buy a 'level'. The player can spend thoughs points to raise any thing, stats, base to hit, skill ranks, defence score, new power, what ever. So its not about picking a class it's more about freely building a character to fit the job, role, or arctype the player has in mind. Weather it's town guard, mason, farmer, or man with no name.

Other systems come to mind, but they are the skill based systems. Shadowrun, Dead Lands, World of Darkness and Star Wars D6. Character creation and advancement are not restricted to a class/level system. You can advance your character with points as you earn them. I honestly like this style of system better because it allows a more organic growth for your character.

nedz
2011-04-13, 04:11 PM
This sounds very similar to Warhammer RPG. In that game you take up a profession {Scout, Hedge Mage, Rat Catcher, etc.} until you have finished the career by acquiring the skills/feats/etc. it has to offer. Then you go onto a new career. I have only played this once, but it was pretty good; assuming you like gritty RPGs.

DeltaEmil
2011-04-13, 04:11 PM
Now I have to ask when Dark Eye has professions are they basicly arctyps that preset base skills and stats to fit a role? I just want to make sure, thats the assumption Im running on by what you've said.Yes, the professions do give you some minimum competences in a selected list of skills.

Tengu_temp
2011-04-13, 04:16 PM
WFRP uses a similar system. You roll/pick a career at the start of the game, and each comes with a set of starting extra equipment, stat increases and skills you can buy for XP, and advanced careers you can pick when you finish this one. Now, this seems to look neat in theory, but in reality players tend to flock towards those careers that give best bonuses anyway, and you often end up with a group where one player is a battle-hardened freelance knight, another one a powerful wizard, and the third one is shopkeeper or a rat catcher.

Partysan
2011-04-14, 04:57 AM
Professions are pretty much the Classes of a skill-based system. They don't have the problems that classes like in d&d have, because for the most part the things they give access to aren't exclusive. I like them as part of a lifepath system and prefer them to classes, meaning I prefer skill-based systems to class-based ones.
That said, DSA (TDE) has some issues that make me not play it/find players for it despite it being a nice system I personally like.
1. The DRM is clunky. To make a skill test you have to roll 3 distinct d20 and then calculate differences.
2. The cost for some professions are exaggerated. In some cases to pay for profession cost and the minimum ability scores for the profession you already go in debt.
3. Despite having active defenses there are still attack rolls that, even for trained warriors, fail a considerable amount of times. This is stupid.

Smokin Red
2011-04-16, 04:50 AM
Professions are pretty much the Classes of a skill-based system. They don't have the problems that classes like in d&d have, because for the most part the things they give access to aren't exclusive. I like them as part of a lifepath system and prefer them to classes, meaning I prefer skill-based systems to class-based ones.
That said, DSA (TDE) has some issues that make me not play it/find players for it despite it being a nice system I personally like.
1. The DRM is clunky. To make a skill test you have to roll 3 distinct d20 and then calculate differences.
2. The cost for some professions are exaggerated. In some cases to pay for profession cost and the minimum ability scores for the profession you already go in debt.
3. Despite having active defenses there are still attack rolls that, even for trained warriors, fail a considerable amount of times. This is stupid.

I agree with nearly everything you've written here, but I believe that
1. is a case of habituation, never had a problem with it, but I believe it may be complicated for beginners (although my 12 yr old son had no problem with it :smallwink:)
2. we fixed this by giving more generation points, only useable for professions but it's true, a dwarven warrior or any mage is nearly impossible to generate if you go by the basic rules
3. there is an alternate system presented in the fighter sourcebook were this is fixed

Partysan
2011-04-16, 06:12 AM
I agree with nearly everything you've written here, but I believe that
1. is a case of habituation, never had a problem with it, but I believe it may be complicated for beginners (although my 12 yr old son had no problem with it :smallwink:)
2. we fixed this by giving more generation points, only useable for professions but it's true, a dwarven warrior or any mage is nearly impossible to generate if you go by the basic rules
3. there is an alternate system presented in the fighter sourcebook were this is fixed

1. It's not so much complicated in the sense of hard to understand as just impractical to use, too slow and too mathmatical. Furthermore, it has been my experience that the more complex the OOC rolls are the more likely are they to disrupt the IC playing.
2. No disagreement here. I once tried to create a veteran sword-something (no idea what the englisch word is) of the Adersin school. Impossible.
EDIT: You're in Berlin, so: I meant Schwertgeselle
3. Do you know which book that was? For me there's a bit of confusion between 4.0 and 4.01 anyway. I liked the QVAT system that some people wrote up.