My third (and final) attempt at a 6/5 casting PrC (3.5, PEACH)

[flabort]

So, I took the advice I got from my two previous failures, and have finally made a class, that I think, gets penalized enough to be allowed it's additional caster level, but flavorful, and gaining enough positive abilities beyond just a +1 caster level to be attractive, but not so much as to cancel the penalties. I present, the

Metamaster

prerequisites:
Feats: Any two metamagic feats
Skills: Spellcraft 7 ranks
Special: Able to cast 2nd level prepared spells

Class skills: Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (any, chosen separately) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int)
skill points at each level: 2 + Int modifier

d4 hit dice
{table]Level | BaB | Fort | ref | Will | Special | Spell casting
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Bonus metamagic feat, Versatile Metamagic, Minor Loss|-
2|+1|+0|+0|+3|Minor Loss|+1 level of existing spell casting class
3|+1|+1|+1|+3|Bonus metamagic feat, minor loss|+1 level of existing spell casting class
4|+2|+1|+1|+4|Major loss, minor loss|+2 levels of existing spell casting class
5|+2|+1|+1|+4|Bonus metamagic feat, Major loss, minor loss|+2 levels of existing spell casting class[/table]

Spells:
When a new Metamaster level is gained, except the first, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. When the fourth or fifth levels of Metamaster are taken, the character gains new spells per day as if he had gained two levels in any one spellcasting class he belonged to before, as stated in the table. However, he does not gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained.
If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became a Metamaster, he must decide to which class he adds each level of Metamaster that advances spell casting for the purpose of determining spells per day and caster level.

Bonus metamagic feats:
At first level, and every odd level of Metamaster thereafter, the Metamaster gets a free metamagic feat.

Versatile Metamagic:
At first level, the Metamaster gains the ability to prepare a spell at one higher level than it really is, and then while casting it, choose any one metamagic feat he has that would increase the level by one, and apply it as if he had when he prepared his spells for the day.

Minor loss:
On taking a level of Metamaster, the character must sacrifice something or take a penalty to something from the list below. The must choose one minor loss each level, although they do not need to take them in any particular order, and some may be taken more than once.
Missing familiar
If the Metamaster has any sort of familiar, animal companion, or special mount as a class feature, he loses it permanently. If he never had a familiar, animal companion, or special mount, he can not take this minor loss.

Energy vulnerability:
Choose an energy type (Fire, cold, electricity, sonic). The Metamaster gains vulnerability to that type of damage, meaning he takes half again damage from it. The Metamaster may take this minor loss more than once, up to four times, never more than once for the same energy type.

Man of a Lesser Will:
The Metamaster takes a -2 penalty to will saves. This minor loss may be taken twice.

He Who is Missing a Feat:
This minor loss may only be taken on levels where the Metamaster would gain a feat (this may be a Bonus Metamagic feat, or a feat gained through other means). This minor loss may be taken up to five times. If it is taken on a level where the Metamaster would gain two feats, he only loses one

Skill points, shmill points:
The Metamaster does not gain any skill points this level. It may only be taken if the Metamaster would gain skill points in the first place. This minor loss may be taken up to three times.

Major loss:
The Metamaster almost always gains a new spell level on his fourth and fifth levels. However, he may no longer cast spells with an unaltered level in his highest level spell slots available at fourth level. By using metamagic to increase the spell's effective level, or otherwise putting a spell of lower level into the slots, the Metamaster is considered to be able to cast spells of that level, but not to know spells of that level. If a spell after metamagic is equal or lower than it's original level, it is considered to be a spell of unaltered level.
At fifth level, he may no longer cast spells with an unaltered level in his two highest level spell slots.



Comments: While there need to be more abilities to pick from in the Minor Loss ability, each minor loss makes the character slightly... different. Weaker, in Net, but... different. The Major Loss makes the +1 caster level not entirely as powerful as before, although it does allow for early entry to some classes (intended). It gets three bonus metamagic feats, which is a big plus, especially when combined with versatile metamagic, but if it still comes across too strong, I'll remove the bonuses that the character gets for each minor loss.

Changelog:
Bonuses from minor loss removed, Skill points, Shmill points can only be taken if you can get skill points at all.

[SurlySeraph]

Uh, yeah. Remove the bonuses. If you're trying to balance getting an extra caster level, giving them bonuses to compensate for the loss is not a good idea.
Say, Sorcerer 4, take Arcane Preparation to qualify, 8 Int so I don't care about skill points, take Skill points, shmill points 3 times and Missing familiar once. At 9th level, take Rapid Metamagic. He's 1 BAB behind the Fighter, at spell level parity with the Wizard, and has 3 extra metamagic feats that he can actually use well. Looks like a great option for a Swiftblade, or a Spellwarp Sniper, or anything else that uses metamagic and attack rolls.

I'm OK with Major Loss; it's a pretty good way to balance being a spell level higher. Looks pretty easy to work around with metamagic reducers, though, unless you specify that a spell whose level has been modified and then modified back to its original level has not has its level modified. Same with +0 metamagics.

I'd consider having more specific and stricter entry requirements, so that going into this class is a choice and not mandatory for anyone who wants to rely heavily on metamagic. Spellcraft 7 and 2 metamagic feats are things that most casters are going to have anyway.

[Zaydos]

Comments:
I'd probably put the skill points back down to normal for a wizard; they don't really seem to have a reason to get more than a wizard does.

Missing Familiar: Should probably state that you can't take Obtain Familiar either.

Missing Feat: +10 to all Knowledge checks is nice, but I wouldn't drop 5 feats for it, might work well on an NPC though.

Man of Lesser Will: I'd count this as a gain if I was going straight arcanist (you'll have 3+ Good Will save classes and no good Fort or Ref).

Versatile Metamagic: Sad that this only works with +1 metamagics.

[true_shinken]

Nice try, but this is just too good, period.

[flabort]

Thanks for replying. I've removed the bonuses from Minor Loss. I was very unsure about them, and getting rid of them was too easy.

I'll see what kind of sentence I can add to Major loss to prevent that kind of cheese.

Stricter entry requirements? I dunno. I want it enter able by 5th or so... But you are right that it's too easy right now.

[flabort]

double post, because of ninjas.

Zaydos: Do you think I should put the skill bonus back on Missing Feat, now that I've removed it? That one would still be a net loss (most feats that grant skill bonuses give a net 4).
It only works with +1 metamagics because if it worked with +2, it would be too good for 1st level. I'll make it work with +2 at fourth, though, how does that sound? I won't make the change, though, until I get a reply on that.

True_shinken: I said this was my third attempt, and have spent considerable time trying to balance it. As is, you'll never be able to cast 8th level spells without a +1 metamagic, and will never get 9th level spells, at all, pre-epic.
But if you think it's just TOO GOOD, that's your desision. You don't have to use my material.

[Doc Roc]

I.... I would take this on every single caster who I didn't expect to reach 17th level.

[Veyr]

Why on earth are there any bonuses whatsoever aside from the improved spellcasting? That is such an unbelievably huge bonus. Three bonus feats over five levels is really good in its own right! I'd drop those without a second thought; you're supposed to be losing things in order to do this.

Also, I don't think the 0/1/1/2/2 is the right progression. It just makes actually playing the class bad, without doing anything to people who have finished it (started play with all 5 levels complete). 1/1/1/1/2 would be better.

Finally, I don't understand what Major Loss does, at all. The Minor Losses do not seem to be equal, either.

But -4 to Will, lose 18-21 skill points, for a full spellcasting level ahead of where you should be? Done and done. I'm with DocRoc; this is good enough that every spellcaster ever should take it.

[Realms of Chaos]

I honestly don't see why everyone is so down on this class. I don't see how it is overpowered. :smallconfused:

Pretend that you enter this class at level 5 as a wizard 4/Metamaster 1. For the first 3 levels, you are actually sacrificing a caster level in exchange for metamagic goodness, meaning that you only have access to your 3th level spells at 7th level. At 8th level, you finally catch up in terms of caster level but you lose the ability to cast spells of the highest spell level available, meaning that you are still stuck with 3rd level spells at 8th level (for reference, a wizard 3/cleric 3/MT 2 would have 3rd level spells from two spell lists at this point). At 9th level (final level of this class), when normal wizards finally get solid fog, you finally gain your mythical extra caster level but can't cast spells of the two highest spell levels available, meaning that you are still stuck with level 3 spells. To reiterate, you only possess 3rd level spells by level 9.

Now, what does this extra caster level really give you?
1. a +1 bonus to caster level (imitable through an ioun stone).
2. More spell slots (useful for the purpose of making metamagic specialists more viable as an alternative to the high-level spells that you lose. That said, the high level spells are often still a more powerful option so you are losing out).
3. The most powerful of all abilities, potential access to PrCs and Feats one level early. that said:
a) very few PRCs possess high caster level prerequisites (and this class would require a Caster Level requirement of at least 10 to grant early prereqs)
b) this class can't be used to gain early access to classes requiring the ability to cast spells of a certain level (or requiring access to specific high-level spells)
c) only feats requiring a caster level of 10th, 13th, 16th, or 19th would really benefit from this ability (and there aren't many such feats in general, much less feats worth basing your entire character around).

At the end of the day, losing access to the best 1/5 of your potential spell list is rarely, if ever, more valuable than the extra caster level. Also, this penalty doesn't only inflict high-level characters (in fact, the 9th level character described above is losing access to 1/3 of their potential spell list, more than a level 17+ character loses).

[SurlySeraph]

Finally, I don't understand what Major Loss does, at all. The Minor Losses do not seem to be equal, either.

The idea of Major Loss is that you can't actually cast spells of your highest spell level; you get the spell slots for that level, but you can only use them to cast metamagic'd lower level spells. I'm OK with it, it shuts down most of the benefits of being a caster level ahead of everybody else.

[Veyr]

That's an interesting idea, and it does do a lot to tone it down.

RoC: Your argument only "works" during the class. Once it's completed, it's OP. And the fact that you give up power early to gain power later is poor design, IMO. It's how we got linear warriors, quadratic wizards in the first place.

[Realms of Chaos]

How is it overpowered once the class is over? This class puts you 3 levels behind normal access to new spell levels for your entire advancement and prevents you from ever casting 8th and 9th level spells. It rarely (if ever) allows for early prerequisites and gaining a caster level bonus, while useful, is hardly unique.

The spell delay and losing your two highest levels of spells is an incredibly huge loss at every single level. This means no solid fog or contact other plane or teleport until 12th level, No true seeing or contingency until 14th level, no forcecage or limited wish until 16th level, and absolutely no Mindblank, PaO, True Creation, Timestop, Wish, Gate, Astral Projection, or Genesis before epic levels.

In what way and at what levels is this class overpowered? Can anyone give a specific example? :smallconfused:

[GideonRiddle]

Maybe I'm misreading but how do you not get 9th level spells.
The way I understand it @ 18th you would have @ least 3 9th level spell slots with only two forced to be metamagic and you can always research new spells so Isee no problem with this class at all.

[Zaydos]

Maybe I'm misreading but how do you not get 9th level spells.
The way I understand it @ 18th you would have @ least 3 9th level spell slots with only two forced to be metamagic and you can always research new spells so Isee no problem with this class at all.

Major Loss: He can't use 8th or 9th level spell slots for spells with an unaltered level of 8th or 9th. Says nothing to hint that bonus slots would be exempt, or that if he researched a 9th level spell he could use it.

[Ziegander]

In what way and at what levels is this class overpowered? Can anyone give a specific example? :smallconfused:

The wording of Major Loss is a little off, and because of this it allows for some interesting, if half-baked, interpretations.

Something more like this seems appropriate:

"Starting at 4th level, a Metamaster may not prepare spells of the highest level available to him in any spell slots."

I can't think of any other abuses that could possibly be taken advantage of that would get around that, unless of course there's a way for prepared casters to spontaneously cast spells. In which case it's just a minor tweak.

[Doc Roc]

It's EE-able from a variety of interesting directions, leading to situations where you, as a blaster, or as a BC caster, will want it regardless. More than there, there are ways to further accelerate casting progression, things that produce some pretty horrible results in conjunction with this.

Spontaneous Divination conveys its cordial regards. As does ultimate magus, fast-progging via sub chord or similar.

Versatile Spellcaster will get you a k+1th level slot, enough to act like a normal wizard, I suspect. Might not be ideal, but it'll work.

Finally, for builds like swiftblade, where you have a vastly different set of priorities, it's completely irresistible.

[Epsilon Rose]

I have to agree with realms on this. The fact that by the end of this class you're one level ahead on casting means next to nothing when compared to the fact that you've just lost yourtwo highest levels of spells. You still get the slots for meta magic, but that's hardly an equivalent trade, it might be slightly decent for sorcerers who get more spells per level, but since they don't really benefit from versatile meta-magic they're giving up alot to effectively get bonus feats and +1 caster level (which they could get as a kobold with greater rite of passage for a feat). Also how does your extra level work at level 20 when you stop progressing spells?

[Doc Roc]

I have to agree with realms on this. The fact that by the end of this class you're one level ahead on casting means next to nothing when compared to the fact that you've just lost yourtwo highest levels of spells. You still get the slots for meta magic, but that's hardly an equivalent trade, it might be slightly decent for sorcerers who get more spells per level, but since they don't really benefit from versatile meta-magic they're giving up alot to effectively get bonus feats and +1 caster level (which they could get as a kobold with greater rite of passage for a feat). Also how does your extra level work at level 20 when you stop progressing spells?

This stacks with loredrake&rite. Just sayin'.

The problem is that:
Unless you deliver mail, use a trick, or have a specialized build, this class is worthless. If you do any of those, it's broken.

[flabort]

So the general consensus is that if you don't try to break it, it's too weak, and if you do, it's much too strong? :smallsigh:

Concerning 20th level:
You'd get spells/day as a 21st level caster, meaning your highest two levels of spells are 10th and 9th, I believe. So you still never get your fabled 9th level spells, but at 20th, I think you may (depending on your DM) get your 8th level slots for 8th level spells.
And although you'd get 10th level slots, again, only for metamagic'd spells. So no epic stuff pre-epic, sorry.

[Jarian]

So the general consensus is that if you don't try to break it, it's too weak, and if you do, it's much too strong? :smallsigh:

If you don't go for a heavily metamagic approach, you miss out on your highest level spells. Missing out on your highest level spells = sucks. You're still a full caster, but comparatively speaking, you're going to blow chunks.

If you do go for a metamagic approach, the class basically says "Here Mr. Mailman, go forth and deliver mail at warp speed!"

It's just not good design. Powerful abilities countered by powerful downsides will always have this problem.

[Zaydos]

So the general consensus is that if you don't try to break it, it's too weak, and if you do, it's much too strong? :smallsigh:

Concerning 20th level:
You'd get spells/day as a 21st level caster, meaning your highest two levels of spells are 10th and 9th, I believe. So you still never get your fabled 9th level spells, but at 20th, I think you may (depending on your DM) get your 8th level slots for 8th level spells.
And although you'd get 10th level slots, again, only for metamagic'd spells. So no epic stuff pre-epic, sorry.

21st level doesn't give 10th level spells, you have to take an Epic Feat for that.

[flabort]

...*face-desk*...I need to go read over that section more carefully. Thanks for that, though.

[Realms of Chaos]

So the general consensus is that it totally OP when used in maximized builds that use large helpings of cheese and worthless elsewhere? :smallconfused:

I'm not quite sure that I buy that argument.

For one thing, the ability to make an overpowered combo even more overpowered doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as being overpowered itself. Locate city, for example, isn't overpowered in and of itself simply because a large series of feats that can be applied to release genocide using it.

For another thing, blasters, fell-drain specialists, non-mailman metamagic specialists, swiftblades (as mentioned) and other casters could most certainly use this class without it being totally worthless. Outside of combination with cheese, this class may be useless to optimizers but I'm not seeing where it is useless, either.

[Waargh!]

You complicate things without a reason :)
Just have a trade-off between a high spell level and an ease of use for meta-magic feats. Isn't that already done?? For example a maximized fireball is equal to a 7th level spell. That works pretty well for a Sorcerer. You can make a PrC for a Wizard to get the choice on the fly as well.

My solution is to create some more interesting and more powerful meta-magic feats available only to the Metacaster.

Example (not necessarily balanced):
Linked spell: After you cast a spell altered with this metamagic feat, you can cast sequential spells as a free action. Each sequential spell has to be two levels lower than the previous one.
Level Augmentation: +2
Special: you can only use one of your highest available spell slots

The trade can always be "use you highest available spell slot". Think of quickened spell. It is powerful if you can quicken maybe a 3rd level utility spell instead of a 7th level spell when you are level 20. But if you are at level 13th most likely that 7th level spell will be more intriguing.
Unless you have a very hard battle that you are planning to waste or your spells on. Then the meta-magic feat shows is use. So then the Metacaster can be very effective since he has more powerful meta-magic feats.

Caster level: normal progression
Penalties: nothing. Does he really have to have a minus? If he doesn't use his special meta-magic feats, he just wasted a class feature. Remember, there are other powerful caster PrC competing. Overall, the meta-magic feats can just compete with normal higher level spells and that is their balance

[Doc Roc]

So the general consensus is that it totally OP when used in maximized builds that use large helpings of cheese and worthless elsewhere? :smallconfused:

I'm not quite sure that I buy that argument.

For one thing, the ability to make an overpowered combo even more overpowered doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as being overpowered itself. Locate city, for example, isn't overpowered in and of itself simply because a large series of feats that can be applied to release genocide using it.

For another thing, blasters, fell-drain specialists, non-mailman metamagic specialists, swiftblades (as mentioned) and other casters could most certainly use this class without it being totally worthless. Outside of combination with cheese, this class may be useless to optimizers but I'm not seeing where it is useless, either.

Except of course if you somehow, inexplicably, take signature spell timestop. or something like that. But no one would violate authorial intent like that!

[Realms of Chaos]

Except of course if you somehow, inexplicably, take signature spell timestop. or something like that. But no one would violate authorial intent like that!

If I'm reading the class correctly, Major loss explicitely prevents you from casting spells of a certain level. Wouldn't such a technique also stop spontaneous casting as gained through signature spell/versatile spellcaster? If not, it seems that a very simple change in the language of the ability would prevent this problem (for example, by stating that all spells of the highest spell level [and later of the highest two spell levels] you have access to are removed from your spell list and that spells of such levels can't be added to your spell list).

[Epsilon Rose]

If I'm reading the class correctly, Major loss explicitely prevents you from casting spells of a certain level. Wouldn't such a technique also stop spontaneous casting as gained through signature spell/versatile spellcaster? If not, it seems that a very simple change in the language of the ability would prevent this problem (for example, by stating that all spells of the highest spell level [and later of the highest two spell levels] you have access to are removed from your spell list and that spells of such levels can't be added to your spell list).

That would also make them incapable of using certain magic items, which seems unnecessary. Especially because at level twenty you're losing the supposed benefit you're taking all these penalties for.

[Zaydos]

Perhaps clarify the line where it says:


By using metamagic to increase the spell's effective level, or otherwise putting a spell of lower level into the slots, the Metamaster is considered to be able to cast spells of that level, but not to know spells of that level.

To make reinforce that they do not know, and cannot learn, spells of that level.

Versatile Spellcaster could still get you knowing spells of a level higher so that every other level you gain the ability to cast spells merely of 1 level lower than that available to a normal wizard of your level (for example at 14th level, you'd have a CL of 15 and the ability to cast 7th level [unmodified] spells even if you did use Versatile Spellcaster).

[Epsilon Rose]

Perhaps clarify the line where it says:



To make reinforce that they do not know, and cannot learn, spells of that level.

Versatile Spellcaster could still get you knowing spells of a level higher so that every other level you gain the ability to cast spells merely of 1 level lower than that available to a normal wizard of your level (for example at 14th level, you'd have a CL of 15 and the ability to cast 7th level [unmodified] spells even if you did use Versatile Spellcaster).

? Why is it nessasary to make it harder to cast spell of a wizard one level BELOW your own?

Also, question, What are the benefits of this class pre-level 5? Compared to most other classes?

[Zaydos]

? Why is it nessasary to make it harder to cast spell of a wizard one level BELOW your own?

Also, question, What are the benefits of this class pre-level 5? Compared to most other classes?

It isn't necessary, my point is even with a bit of shenanigans it's still getting worse than a normal wizard.

[Ziegander]

To make reinforce that they do not know, and cannot learn, spells of that level.

Versatile Spellcaster could still get you knowing spells of a level higher so that every other level you gain the ability to cast spells merely of 1 level lower than that available to a normal wizard of your level (for example at 14th level, you'd have a CL of 15 and the ability to cast 7th level [unmodified] spells even if you did use Versatile Spellcaster).

You don't want to stop them from "knowing" spells. That would be silly. There's nothing to stop a normal 2nd level Wizard with Int 18 from reading a book on spells and adding any spells she finds in that book up to 8th level to her own spellbook. She just isn't going to be able to cast them for a LONG while.

And like I said, a minor tweak should take care of our problem.

"Starting at 4th level a Metamaster is unable to cast or prepare spells of his highest available spell level using his spell slots. This does not stop him from casting those spells from spell-completion items, such as scrolls, or spell-trigger items, such as wands.

Starting at 5th level a Metamaster is unable to cast or prepare spells of his highest and second highest available spell levels using his spell slots."

There. If you don't want them to be able to cast them AT ALL simply change it so that it says, "cast or prepare [...] using neither his spell slots, nor spell-completion items such as scrolls, nor spell-trigger items such as wands."

[Realms of Chaos]

You don't want to stop them from "knowing" spells. That would be silly. There's nothing to stop a normal 2nd level Wizard with Int 18 from reading a book on spells and adding any spells she finds in that book up to 8th level to her own spellbook. She just isn't going to be able to cast them for a LONG while.

And like I said, a minor tweak should take care of our problem.

"Starting at 4th level a Metamaster is unable to cast or prepare spells of his highest available spell level using his spell slots. This does not stop him from casting those spells from spell-completion items, such as scrolls, or spell-trigger items, such as wands.

Starting at 5th level a Metamaster is unable to cast or prepare spells of his highest and second highest available spell level using his spell slots."

There. If you don't want them to be able to cast them AT ALL simply change it so that it says, "cast or prepare [...] using neither his spell slots, nor spell-completion items such as scrolls, nor spell-trigger items such as wands."

The question, then, is if versatile spellcaster, signature spell, and similar sources would still work for the rewording (seeing as people seem convinced that they could use these abilities with the current wording).

[Epsilon Rose]

The question, then, is if versatile spellcaster, signature spell, and similar sources would still work for the rewording (seeing as people seem convinced that they could use these abilities with the current wording).

I will ask again, why does it matter? So they can cast 1 level appropriate (or level appropriate -1) spell, why is this bad?

[Ziegander]

The question, then, is if versatile spellcaster, signature spell, and similar sources would still work for the rewording (seeing as people seem convinced that they could use these abilities with the current wording).

Well, the answers are no and no.

Also, to quote the SRD, "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell [...]"

Now, as far as I know, Craft Contingent Spell will still be broken with this, if not slightly more broken than usual. As there is no errata I can find on it, and the original text is painfully unclear in certain areas, it appears that, though it may follow a lot of the same rules, Crafting a Contingent Spell never involves actually casting or preparing said spell. The problem, however, as Realms would put it, is definitely with the Craft Contingent Spell feat and not with the Metamaster.

EDIT: And of course, without limiting spell-completion items, the Metamaster could just scribe scrolls of his higher level spells and cast them that way (though this is a bit costly).

For the record, I wouldn't recommend limiting spell-completion items or spell-trigger items.

[Zaydos]

EDIT: And of course, without limiting spell-completion items, the Metamaster could just scribe scrolls of his higher level spells and cast them that way (though this is a bit costly).

For the record, I wouldn't recommend limiting spell-completion items or spell-trigger items.

Make it so they can't prepare or cast spells of those unmodified levels and they can't make scrolls with them either.

[flabort]

Wait, now I'm completely lost, reading these critiques. Some say "leave it as is, it's perfect", others say "Leave it as is, there's no point trying to save it", and yet others say "Clarify the wording with this completely opposite sentence, and it will make sense".

I've lost track of who's telling who what. Are we talking to me, or eachother now; describing various fixes, or how broken it is/isn't?
I should have waited longer before posting this final attempt.

[Veyr]

Why are you so set on making this happen in the first place?

[flabort]

...why? Oh, I dunno. Most of the well known homebrewers with tons of material on these boards each have their own Crowning Achievement, that definitely breaks the set standards of before.
I thought, "how can I break the set standards, and join their ranks?".
Well, the set standard I found was that a class advancing X/Y spellcasting, never has X>Y, and so I set out to break that standard.

A crowning achievement it wasn't. And so I tried again. I got much closer. And now, with advice from both my attempts, I went into the forge of homebrew a third time, with what I though were nuggets of purest gold, intent on making me my crown.
Fool's gold. I ended up with Fool's gold. :smallfrown:

But really, I wanted to become a lich sooner. That was (superficially) why I kept trying, wanted to succeed so bad, and why I've failed three times in a *****ng row.

[Realms of Chaos]

I'm pretty confused regarding all of the commentary myself (despite having made a good deal of it).

As far as I can tell, some people seem to think that this class gives some degree of access to your supposedly forbidden spell levels (such as by means of spontaneous casting, spell completion, negative levels of metamagic adjustment [?], item creation [especially contingent spells], and so forth) to people who know where to look. If this is indeed the case, there are different views on whether this is a good or bad idea. If it was intended that you gain no access to these high level spells in any regard, there are a couple of different suggestions on how to make it more explicit so that the suggested forms of abuse do not work.

Regardless of this situation, however, the class acts as something of a cheese amplifier, making things like the loredrake, ur-priest, and even (I'm pretty sure) the locate city bomb look even worse than they already were. In the particular case of the locate city bomb, I believe that the three metamagic feats in close proximity, ability to use higher-level slots for metamagicked spells, and early access to said higher-level slots would make this the idea class for launching armageddon (though I haven't seen the full details of the bomb for awhile so I can't say for sure).

[Ziegander]

and yet others say "Clarify the wording with this completely opposite sentence, and it will make sense".

Is this directed at me? If so, what about my suggestion of,

"Starting at 4th level a Metamaster is unable to cast or prepare spells of his highest available spell level using his spell slots. This does not stop him from casting those spells from spell-completion items, such as scrolls, or spell-trigger items, such as wands.

Starting at 5th level a Metamaster is unable to cast or prepare spells of his highest and second highest available spell levels using his spell slots."

is completely opposite to your intention?

1) Your wording, on the other hand, doesn't stop a spell caster from preparing his highest level spells in his highest level slots, which can cause some really wonky things and leaves some things open for potential abuse.

2) The reason I quoted this line, "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell [...]" from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) (the 3.5 System Reference Document) is to demonstrate that my wording still prevents the use of the Metamaster's highest level spells but does not stop him from casting or preparing metamagicked spells in his highest level spell slots. It isn't contradictory, because it's how the rules actually work.

3) The reason I don't recommend changing how the class interacts with spell-completion or spell-trigger items is because a) I don't think it's much of an abuse anyway, and b) a Wizard can already scribe scrolls of higher level than he can cast simply because he can know those spells. So you would be stopping the Metamaster from use activating two spell levels, but he could just skip those and get to the higher level ones if he really wanted.

[Epsilon Rose]

...why? Oh, I dunno. Most of the well known homebrewers with tons of material on these boards each have their own Crowning Achievement, that definitely breaks the set standards of before.
I thought, "how can I break the set standards, and join their ranks?".
Well, the set standard I found was that a class advancing X/Y spellcasting, never has X>Y, and so I set out to break that standard.

A crowning achievement it wasn't. And so I tried again. I got much closer. And now, with advice from both my attempts, I went into the forge of homebrew a third time, with what I though were nuggets of purest gold, intent on making me my crown.
Fool's gold. I ended up with Fool's gold. :smallfrown:

But really, I wanted to become a lich sooner. That was (superficially) why I kept trying, wanted to succeed so bad, and why I've failed three times in a *****ng row.

Hmm, about that, in my experience it's rather hard to create a magnum-opus with the explicit purpose of being one. I'm guessing it has you looking at the wrong things while starting with a relatively pore premise.

May I make a suggestion? Look at what an X>Y class achieves and what it might be useful for.

In general and in the short term (X<20) an X>Y class will get you access to spells earlier, get spell slots sooner, and qualify for prcs sooner.
In the long run (X>=20) it will result in a marginally higher caster level possible early qualification for epic feats (but I wouldn't except that till Y=20) and the mitigation of caster levels lost to prcs and multi-classing.

The short term effects only work at levels where your caster level is less than 20 because spell slots don't advance after level 20 without epic feats or salient divine abilities and early qualification only matters if it leaves you with a working build and could be argued not to matter as much at later level (again depends on the build). Conversely the long term effects always apply, simply because there's nothing to mitigate them.

If you really want to create an X>Y class I'd suggest looking at those lists and picking a few uses that you like and emphasizing them or trying to rearrange/add to the list.

Note: I'm not the most up on mage op so I could have missed a few uses though I'm willing to bet most would be decently cheesy (note on Note: better meta-magic wasn't on the list because it seemed to be a function of extra slots and almost nothing else, it would also need something to separate it from incatrix)

[flabort]

Well, the problem with your wording is that it prevents him from casting spells from those slots at all, it seems. I'm trying to let him still cast metamagic'd spells from those slots.

Perhaps a happy medium is in order?

And, no, it's not just directed at you. I recall others with "opposite" (strong word, but the closest I could recal) wordings to my intent, and so... well...

Edit: Ninja'd

[Ziegander]

Well, the problem with your wording is that it prevents him from casting spells from those slots at all, it seems. I'm trying to let him still cast metamagic'd spells from those slots.

Perhaps a happy medium is in order?

See, I was afraid that my wording did that, but it in fact does not. That's exactly why I checked the SRD to find out what the rules say about metamagic feats. And the reason I quoted the SRD, and then explained it in my post above.


The reason I quoted this line, "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell [...]" from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) (the 3.5 System Reference Document) is to demonstrate that my wording still prevents the use of the Metamaster's highest level spells but does not stop him from casting or preparing metamagicked spells in his highest level spell slots. It isn't contradictory, because it's how the rules actually work.

[Doc Roc]

...why? Oh, I dunno. Most of the well known homebrewers with tons of material on these boards each have their own Crowning Achievement, that definitely breaks the set standards of before.
I thought, "how can I break the set standards, and join their ranks?".
Well, the set standard I found was that a class advancing X/Y spellcasting, never has X>Y, and so I set out to break that standard.

A crowning achievement it wasn't. And so I tried again. I got much closer. And now, with advice from both my attempts, I went into the forge of homebrew a third time, with what I though were nuggets of purest gold, intent on making me my crown.
Fool's gold. I ended up with Fool's gold. :smallfrown:

But really, I wanted to become a lich sooner. That was (superficially) why I kept trying, wanted to succeed so bad, and why I've failed three times in a *****ng row.

Oh, you want power? Fame? Reputation? Let me tell you about these things...
Power is a burden. Prestige, even minor prestige, means defending your title, and your works. Reputation is just a thing for people to forget when it would matter. Build for the sake of building, because all the other things are just a product of chance and victims of time.

Or you could help us with Legend.

[Waargh!]

Power is a burden?? Most likely the opposite...