Gestalt Help: Imp Assassin

[Crazy Cupcake]

Hello! I've been lurking around here quite a bit lately, and I finally broke down and registered because I could really use some help.

I'm joining an online game for a system I haven't played in years and years (guess which one!). It's an 8th-level gestalt game in which one side of the gestalt is a monstrous race from Savage Species while the other side is standard progression.

I have a pretty nifty idea -- a shadow imp familiar who betrayed his master and enjoyed the act so much he's become a freelance assassin -- but I'm having trouble making it reality due to a lack of familiarity with the rules. I was hoping you guys could offer some advice.

Here's what I have so far:


1st: Dark Creature Template /
2nd: Imp 1 /
3rd: Imp 2 /
4th: Imp 3 /
5th: Imp 4 /
6th: Imp 5 /
7th: Imp 6 /
8th: Imp 7 /

His ability scores at level 8 are: Str 10, Dex 26, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 16, and Cha 12. I can adjust them, of course, but they look pretty good to me.

As you can see, my problem lies on the class(es) side of the equation. My goal is to make him super sneaky (which isn't a problem being Tiny with Invisibility at will, a crazy Hide and Move Silently score, and Hide in Plain Sight from the template) and super deadly with his poisonous Sting attack. I also figured Spot and Listen would be really high to facilitate his assassiny nature.

Rogue seems like a good choice, but so does Monk and the Unarmed Swordsage with a focus on the Shadow Hand discipline. The Assassin class seemed like a natural, too, until I realized that the Poison Use class feature was totally pointless (since imps are immune to poison anyway).

Two feats that I thought sounded really spiffy were Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) and Great Flyby Attack. I'm not sure if the latter is necessary or would work with sneak attack damage (if I have any at all), but it looks pretty cool to my untrained eye. Darkstalker seems like a must-have for the sneaky aspect, too. Especially since I'm anticipating going up against a lot of monstrous types.

Okay! With all of that out of the way, think you guys and gals can help me out? I'm mostly looking for advice with: Class and Prestige Class selection.
Feat selection.
Ways to bolster his Sting and Poison abilities.
Equipment ideas.I like to keep things pretty simple, too. I'd rather have one or two base classes and one prestige class over 20 different front-loaded classes because it makes me feel uncomfortable. Other than that, I'm pretty opened minded and have access to most of the official sourcebooks. In other words, I'm not looking to really "optimize" the character, I just want to make sure I don't create a completely useless one compared to all the other hulking beats I'll be playing alongside. :D

Thanks in advance!

[Darth Stabber]

I love the idea but I have a problem with your initial set up. You are taking the dark template before your racial progression which doesn't make a lot of sense to me (you should probably either skip you first class level or move the template ti the end). That being said if your gm is cool with that is the smarter arrangement from a power perspective.

26dex? Is that including imp ability boosts?

Ultimately you best bet class wise is likely to be one of 3 things

Rogue - the classic assassin lead off, lots of skill points, usefull low level class features. Weak over all though.

Factotum - if you are willing to move some points into INT, then you have something in this class. Abuse the action economy, learn ANY skill, add int to everything, cast wizard spells like a cleric, and all while playing a class hidden away from the world in a tiny book, that people outside of powergamming forums have never heard of. Solid choice.

Swordsage - if you are willing to move some points into wis, this class gives you manuevers, stances and class abilities that are the best you are likely to do from a pure murdering stand point. Tight focus on shadow hand will yield som scary results, and pulling in the save replacers from diamond mind can't hurt.

May I also suggest totemist (assuming a buff to con). You get all kinds of crazy buffs to natural weapons, and cool abilities out the yin yang.

[Crazy Cupcake]

I love the idea but I have a problem with your initial set up. You are taking the dark template before your racial progression which doesn't make a lot of sense to me (you should probably either skip you first class level or move the template ti the end). That being said if your gm is cool with that is the smarter arrangement from a power perspective.
I could easily move it around. I just thought that was the best way to list it since the template was a natural part of who he was, and the Savage Species progression was him "growing" along the way. If it makes more sense to put the template at 8th level, that's fine by me. :)


26dex? Is that including imp ability boosts?
Yes, we're using a 48-point buy system and his purchased base scores were Str 10, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 12. Bonus points from the Imp class were Dex +6 and Wis +2, with another Dex +1 at 4th and 8th level. (Did I do this correctly?)


Rogue - the classic assassin lead off, lots of skill points, usefull low level class features. Weak over all though.

Swordsage - if you are willing to move some points into wis, this class gives you manuevers, stances and class abilities that are the best you are likely to do from a pure murdering stand point. Tight focus on shadow hand will yield som scary results, and pulling in the save replacers from diamond mind can't hurt.
How are Rogues weak? I thought they were always a pretty solid class, especially coupled with all the benefits the Imp/Dark template are bringing to the table (perfect high-speed flying, invisibility, very high Hide and Dexterity, natural poison, hide in plain sight, regeneration and fast healing, hard to hit, free Weapon Finesse (Sting), etc.). If Sneak Attack works with Great Flyby Attack (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1261-great-flyby-attack.html), which I'm not sure it does due to my ignorance of the system anymore, I imagine it'd be pretty darn effective.

My problem with the Rogue is that I'm not sure if it's any good with natural attacks or bolsters them in any way. That's why I was looking at the Unarmed Swordsage variant as well as the Monk. Perhaps a level or two in one of those classes coupled with Rogue would be a good idea? Is there a way to synergize them effectively? Those are the questions I asked myself.


Factotum - if you are willing to move some points into INT, then you have something in this class. Abuse the action economy, learn ANY skill, add int to everything, cast wizard spells like a cleric, and all while playing a class hidden away from the world in a tiny book, that people outside of powergamming forums have never heard of. Solid choice.

May I also suggest totemist (assuming a buff to con). You get all kinds of crazy buffs to natural weapons, and cool abilities out the yin yang.
I'm not sure those two really capture the feel I was going for, though I've always thought Factotum was an interesting class!

[gorfnab]

If you can pump up your Cha a little you could go Fiend of Possession (Fiend Folio).

[Darth Stabber]

Rogue is a tier 4 class, and it's most powerfull ability is umd as a class skill. They are decent at sneak attacking, but you have optimize pretty heavily for that to be great rather than just good. Since it seems that is the way you want to go, you are already off to a great start with your tiny size.

Your natural weapons are just fine for sneak attacking, throw in weapon finesse and improved unarmed strike, and you are doing great. The reason you want improved umarmed strike is simple, volume of attacks: when you full attack you can only make one attack per natural weapon unless otherwise stated, meaning you need some other weapon that does not take up a hand to make an iterative attack based on bab. So if your bab is +6/+1 you could make 2 unarmed strikes (at 6bab and another at 1bab), and then attack with both claws at full bab (though with a -5 penalty that can be reduced with the multi attack feat), giving you 4 attacks a round at level 7 (more if you go with twf, and faster if you pick up a full bab class).

Now since you are not very strong, you are going have to rely on sneak attack to make those attacks count, but there is a feat in Tome of Battle that let's you add dex instead of str (shadow blade something, or was it nightmare blade:smallannoyed:). This is especially important for you since it let's you squeeze in extra damage against things normally immune to sneak attack (undead, constructs, plants, oozes, a couple other things), with out going through all the weird contrivances that other have to do (since your bonus damage from dex is not insubstantial).

Also if you go rogue you probably want to splash atleast 1 level of unarmed swordsage, and profit immensly from moving a couple points into wis, and get some awesome manuevers (though if you plan on abusing natural weapons you might want to stick to boosts, since attack manuevers won't benefit much from your ability to throw out massive volleys). The diamond mind save replacers are great(if you want to invest in concentration). Beyond the save replacers you probably want a lot of shadow hand (especially the aptly named assassin's stance), and a touch of setting sun.

Once you have completed your racial progression, you might take assassin, and run it opposite either rogue, sword sage, or something full bab. Assassin requires a very high int to be effective so watch that (you risk becoming very multiple attribute dependant). Be especially careful if you try to combine unarmed swordsage and assassin since they rely on different mental traits (though ss is less wis dependant than assassin is int dependant). Keep in mind that death attack is not all it's cracked up to be. The spells are actually one of the selling points if you choose them well.

I suggest totemist, since they are the masters of natural weapon abuse. If you are looking to abuse natural weapons, you may as well go big. there are all sort of neat tolls in their toybox, and you can change those tools everyday as needed. Totemist (as you can tell from my sig) is pretty much my default suggestion for any meleer that doesn't rely on twohanded weapons, but every time I do, there is always solid reasoning behind it, since the class is amazing in gestalt (and pretty darn good in normal D&D).

Dipping two levels of fighter along the way is also great (and they needn't be taken together), but be sure you need the feats, and that those feats give more to the build than class features would. If you are just after the bab there are several better choices (ranger, warblade{iron heat surge}, hexblade, barbarian {though as an imp you are likely too lawful}, or 2 lvl dip in paladin of tyranny {divine grace and always active debuff aura}).

[Crazy Cupcake]

Wow! Thanks for the great information and insights everyone. It's really helped me out a lot. I've settled on a Rogue 6/Swordsage 2 build and I like it quite a bit. Fiend of Possession is something I'm going to consider going into at a later date; the ethereal at will bit is mindbogglingly cool.

Anyway, with that and the feat selection out of the way (I chose Darkstalker, Craven, and Shadow Blade; Craven just seems like it was made for an imp!), all I really have left to do is figure out what kind of equipment I should get. I haven't talked to the GM about it yet, but I'm assuming we get the standard wealth for an 8th-level character, giving me about 27,000gp to work with.

A Necklace of Natural Attacks seems like it should be my first choice. Any suggestions on how to get it enchanted? None of the books I looked through had anything that felt like a "must have" for this type of character, but I'm sure I missed quite a bit.

How about armor? I can wear Light Armor while still maintaining my Wisdom bonus to AC, so I think I should take advantage of that. The Glamer enchantment sounds fun but I don't think its necessary for this character, nor are the ones that boost Hide or Move Silently since those skills are already sky-high. Should I just get the best enhancement bonus I can and call it a day?

Would a Wand of Acid Splash or Wand of Inflict Minor Wounds (to get around any acid-immune beasties) for 375gp be a worthwhile investment? Seems like it would be my best option in situations where I need to stay at range, and since I'll have a pretty decent Use Magic Device skill rating, it wouldn't be that difficult to use either. But should I go with a higher spell level wand to possibly get around spell resistance or high saves or whatnot? Or does it even matter?

I know there's a set of enchanted Thieves' Tools somewhere -- I distinctly remember seeing them once upon a time -- but I can't find them now to save my life. Are they inexpensive enough to snag, and do any of you know where I can find 'em if they do indeed exist?

Are there any other interesting items in this price range I should consider?

And again: Thanks so much, guys. I'm really sorry for being so question intensive. It's just that I haven't played in forever and am incredibly rusty at the game.

[Darth Stabber]

When considering armor, you must remember max dex bonus, and with a 26 dex, there is no armor in the game with a high enough max dex bonus to actually increase your armor class, even padded armor will actually lower your AC. You could however see about getting clothes enchanted as armor (mostly to grab certain armor enchantments, namely silent moves, shadowed, and fortification), or some bracers of armor, or some method of getting mage armor as needed. Your naked AC is 18 (plus whatever your size modifier is), with mage armor that jumps to a very respectable 22(plus size), add an amulet of natural armor, or ring of deflection if you really want to focus on AC. AC is one of those weird things that become less and less important as levels accumulate. After level 12 or so you can all but forget about it and focus on saves, but you are still in an area of the game where it can make a difference. Honestly you best defence really is a strong offense, ie dead stuff won't hurt you.

Also if you can get your gm to approve a shirt of mage armor (constant), you are set for a while.

[Crazy Cupcake]

When considering armor, you must remember max dex bonus, and with a 26 dex, there is no armor in the game with a high enough max dex bonus to actually increase your armor class, even padded armor will actually lower your AC. You could however see about getting clothes enchanted as armor (mostly to grab certain armor enchantments, namely silent moves, shadowed, and fortification), or some bracers of armor, or some method of getting mage armor as needed. Your naked AC is 18 (plus whatever your size modifier is), with mage armor that jumps to a very respectable 22(plus size), add an amulet of natural armor, or ring of deflection if you really want to focus on AC. AC is one of those weird things that become less and less important as levels accumulate. After level 12 or so you can all but forget about it and focus on saves, but you are still in an area of the game where it can make a difference. Honestly you best defence really is a strong offense, ie dead stuff won't hurt you.

Also if you can get your gm to approve a shirt of mage armor (constant), you are set for a while.
Hmm, I didn't think of that at all. I believe that without armor my AC will be 10 + 8 (Dex) + 2 (Tiny) + 3 (Natural) + 4 (Wisdom). Wow, AC 27 at 8th level? That's kind of crazy, especially with Regeneration 1 and Fast Healing 2.

I guess that's one thing I don't have to worry about. Thanks for bringing it up!

As an aside, I'm a little confused about having both Regeneration (which doesn't heal certain types of damage; I think its Fire and Holy for an imp) and Fast Healing. If I take those types of damage, does that just mean my healing is reduced to 2 instead of 3? Or is the limitation on Regeneration binding to Fast Healing, too? (Does this question even make sense?)

[Urpriest]

Hmm, I didn't think of that at all. I believe that without armor my AC will be 10 + 8 (Dex) + 2 (Tiny) + 3 (Natural) + 4 (Wisdom). Wow, AC 27 at 8th level? That's kind of crazy, especially with Regeneration 1 and Fast Healing 2.

I guess that's one thing I don't have to worry about. Thanks for bringing it up!

As an aside, I'm a little confused about having both Regeneration (which doesn't heal certain types of damage; I think its Fire and Holy for an imp) and Fast Healing. If I take those types of damage, does that just mean my healing is reduced to 2 instead of 3? Or is the limitation on Regeneration binding to Fast Healing, too? (Does this question even make sense?)

Imps don't get regeneration. Savage Species is a 3.0 book, you'll need to fix a few things to update it to 3.5.

That said, if you did have both Regeneration and Fast Healing, the Regeneration would convert all damage (except for the stuff that gets through, like Fire and Holy) into nonlethal damage. Your fast healing would then heal both lethal and nonlethal damage, while regeneration would only heal nonlethal damage.

[Crazy Cupcake]

It's a house rule thing, we're specifically using Savage Species, and Imps do receive both of them therein. :)

Regardless, thanks for letting me know that's how it works. I do so hate being a newbie all over again.