Low level bard looking for some options (3.5)

[Redland Jack]

This is my first time playing 3.5 (played some 2nd edition back in the ‘gold box’ days). I’ve played three sessions and I’m trying to plan out how I want to progress my character. I’d originally planned to be a ranged bard, but I’m starting to think that’s going to end up being pretty crummy. Let’s see, relevant info:

Human Bard 2 (1067 xp) (CN) -- Str: 9, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Cha: 14

The world appears to be low gold (after 3 sessions, a sample of my equipment is: studded leather, buckler, light crossbow, 20 gold).

Our group is large (8-10 people) and leans towards fighter-types (a lot of new players, so they often just pick up something easy to run with. “Here’s a Barbarian. You’re good at attacking things.”)

Multiclassing is somewhat restricted to a max of 2 base classes and/or 1 prestige class

Books available for feats: CAdv, CArc, CDiv, CWar, PHB, PHBII, ToB, Mini, ECS

Three beneficial relevant houserules: 1) Instead of d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, you get a flat 3, 5, 6, 8, 10

2) Toughness acts like Improved Toughness

3) We can reconfigure 4 skill points or 1 feat per level, so even though I have Point Blank Shot and Extra Music, I’m not stuck with these. Also, alignment can change 1 segment, once, with no consequence.

Magic is not readily buyable (we’re based in an isolated town, though the town will likely grow as we advance in level), at least currently.

I’m looking to play a support-type character, at least for the first 10 levels or so.

I’m more interested in something that will be fun to play at all/most levels as opposed to something that will do something cool at level 20 (who knows how far we’ll get before the game (or my character) expires). I don’t need to be too powerful, since our group is a mixed-bag of power.

It looks like we’re going to be mostly dungeon-crawly, with generally (though not completely) instransigent monsters.

So, with my rather poor choice of starting stats, I see a few general paths forward:

Below average sorcerer: For the first 10 levels I’d have 7-10 levels of bard and 0-3 levels of Marshal, Crusader, or Warblade. The last 10 levels would be Sublime Chord (which the DM okayed). My charisma is pretty weak for a sorcerer-type. I’d consider a Marshal-splash for the decent minor aura synergy. I’d consider the ToB splash for some White Raven support stuff and maybe Mind Over Body. Possible early feats: Weapon Finesse (early than swap?), Song of the Heart, Practiced Spellcaster, Song of the White Raven (if only 7 levels of Bard), Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar (maybe a Quasit). Raise charisma every level.

Below average two-weapon fighter: 3-4 levels of Bard, followed by 16-17 levels of Warblade. My dexterity is poor for a two-weapon fighter (it’d be a lot better if I started with 15 dex). My plan here would be to rely heavily on flanking to get damage bonuses from Tactics of the Wolf and the Insight bonus from Warblade to make up for my awful strength bonus. Possible early feats: Weapon Finesse, Song of the White Raven, Two-Weapon Fighting (I’d sadly have to burn 3 feats for Shadow Blade, putting it out of reach). Raise dexterity every level.

Terrible sword/shield or two-handed weapon fighter: 3-4 levels of Bard, 12-14 levels SS/WB/C, and either 3 levels of human paragon or 2-4 levels of Dragon Disciple. I’d have to grab the paragon/disciple levels to get the necessary strength to get power attack. Raise strength every level.

Average ‘pure’ Bard: 18-20 levels of Bard, 1-2 levels of Warblade. Maybe stick with my original plan of ranged Bard early (Inspire Courage + PBS and Rapid Shot) despite being -1 damage with a short bow then convert to more of a utility caster later. Improved Familiar might be good here (something like a Mephit or an Elemental). Raise Charisma every level.

So, do any of these builds seem viable? Do any of them seem like they’d be more fun than others? (One reason so many of them include ToB stuff, is that ToB classes look particularly fun to play).

Would a familiar be reasonable under the two-weapon fighter build? Even though I’d have meager arcane caster levels, I’d have a pretty serious stack of hit points to share. Maybe a Blink Dog to help with flanking?

Any other ideas on what to do with my guy (other than throw his character sheet into the fire!)

[Jarian]

...I had this huge post typed out all about Dragonfire Inspiration and a huge party full of physical attackers, and math about how much win it would be at breakpoint levels and everything.

Then I noticed you didn't have Dragon Magic as a feat source. Much sadness.

I recommend going into Warblade and picking up Song of the White Raven at level 3. Get weapon finesse if you can; your weapon's base damage won't matter much when you're using strikes, and a strong White Raven focus will make your whole party even better. Inspire Courage into Leading the Attack for a 3rd level example. If your party of physicals can't do something awesome with that, there's something wrong. Normally I would point out Snowflake Wardance, but, well, source restrictions again, and you don't benefit from a high Charisma in any appreciable way if you're going this route anyway. Pump your dex, if you ever manage to get any gold anyway.

You could stick around with bard until level 4-6 if you wanted to, but with your low charisma and terrible physical scores, it's really not an amazing idea. Song of the White Raven will progress your Inspire Courage with Warblade levels anyway, even if it doesn't progress uses per day. If you do hop into Warblade at 3rd, you should probably pick up a use of Extra Song in there somewhere, otherwise just pace yourself and/or pick up Lingering Song.

Regarding a ranged bard: Yes, it's going to be pretty crummy unless you can get Dragonfire Inspiration, in which case just look at Master Thrower and coo sweet nothings to the piles of ash which were previously your enemies.

[Redland Jack]

Hmmm. Thanks for the advice. So your thought would be that the Bard spells aren't going to be all that exciting (4th level netting me one mighty 2nd level spell), so the only real advantage of even going to 3rd level would be that I could take Song of the Heart.
Since neither of those things are overly impressive, I might as well jump into Warblade right away and start getting some sweet (party aiding) White Raven maneuvers and just take my 14 Charisma as a sunk cost. That sounds reasonable.

[faceroll]

Spells like grease, silent image, pyrotechnics, glitterdust, slow, and haste are all really terrific and you should get them.
Song of the Heart is pretty solid. With 8 people, I'd be tempted to pick that up.

If you go Warblade, try using diamond mind concentration checks for damage. Not 100% on how that interacts with Bard Song, though.

[Redland Jack]

So your thought would be that I should go to at least 4th level, which'd give me 3 1st and 1 2nd level spell as well as the ability to get Song of the Heart. While going to 7th would give me access to Haste (and my poor caster level wouldn't matter too much, since I'd be casting it on allies). Since our party is pretty arcane casting poor, that might not a bad idea.
I also like the Diamond Mind idea. That completely averts my terrible strength while getting double use out of concentration for both casting and stabbing people! (Looking at it, I'd guess the to-hit combines with Bard song, but the damage wouldn't (well, unless someone else was using the Bard competence song on me.)
Hmmm. The Diamond Mind has so many skill with concentration, it almost makes sense to take Skill Focus (Concentration).

[Treblain]

Inspire Courage is still great without Dragonfire Inspiration. +1 from first level, +1 from Inspirational Boost, +1 from Badge of Valor, +1 from Song of the Heart, +1 from the right masterwork instrument, and you're helping your party tremendously. Inspirational Boost is a swift action spell, which unfortunately means it doesn't mix well with Song of the White Raven.

Bow of Songs (MIC) is a way to add Charisma to ranged attack and damage, but your charisma isn't that great.

A lot of options are cut off by your ability scores. Warblade sounds good enough, I guess. Marshal dip is fine also. If you're really only spending a few levels as a bard, War Chanter might work. Alternately, stick with bard and then go on to Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).

[Mutazoia]

What everybody else above me said.


I tend to go for Ranged Bard myself. Last time I stuck with pure bard and then went Arcane Archer. Not very spectacular but few things have sonic immunities, and bards make great support/battle field control characters. They even get a few healing spells. (Nothing beats pulling the arrow heads off of a few arrows and replacing them with cloth bulbs. Using Imbue Arrow with Cure Serious Wounds (or other helpful spells) keeps the front line fighters up and you out of Melee. Getting the drop on a group of enemies and imbuing an arrow with Song of Discord and plugging them before they can get to melee range is great fun too)

[Redland Jack]

I'm not sure if my DM would allow it, but Jade Phoenix Mage could be useful. I'd still end up losing a ton of caster levels, but depending on how far I went with it, I could still get around 4th level spells. Unfortunately, the maneuvers aren't great, but I think I could dance around between JPM and WB and still get a reasonable number of decent White Raven and Diamond Mind maneuvers.

Treblain -- Yeah, I didn't do myself any favors with my 25 point ability buy. I needed to be more focused in charisma (unless I wanted to go the fighter-type route, in which case I needed to choose completely different scores!)

I'll have to check out War Chanter (As an aside, one nice thing about Warblade, is that it's free to access online). Swiftblade looks interesting. Since haste becomes so valuable, it helps mitigate the puny number of spells known at each level. Also, losing 4 levels of spellcasting isn't a huge drawback, because, you know, they're just bard spells! On the other hand, it is kind of mean of them to make the 10th level ability almost useless for a bard (with 22 charisma you can use it once in its weakest form).

Mutazoia -- I always play humans in whatever system I play (does that make me a speciesist?!), precluding arcane archer. :( (On the plus side, D&D is one of the few systems where humans are actually good, so that's a nice change of pace!)

I do like to stay out of melee, though (who wants to get poked with sharp stick), and Imbue Arrow shenanigans sound fun (and it's nice that they let you use it as many times per day as you want).

[Gwendol]

Bard alternate class feature from PHB II: bardic knack lets you focus on important skills while still have some chance of succeeding at others. Could be better than Bardic Lore, depending on the campaign/group.

Pick up Inspirational Boost for level 1 spell: it's a swift action +1 to IC, and try and get Badge of Valor if you can (immediate action activation, another +1 to IC).

I would switch out extra music for lingering song and pick up melodic casting (perform instead of concentration) when I can. With lingering song you can spend 1 round singing, giving all at least +2 to attack and damage which will count for much in such a big group. You reap the benefits from it yourself too, and with a bow can fire away once you've cast your grease and/or charm person.

By all means go Bard 4: you get Glitterdust.

Also, try shifting points from CON to CHA. The latter is your primary stat after all.

[Vangor]

Focus on fascinate/suggestion early on, primarily taking song of the heart at third and getting yourself masterwork panpipes and a masterwork lute (depends on scenario which you use), in order to be useful in combat. Obviously give inspire courage, too. Work towards Sublime Chord in the long term.

You will be useful for disabling enemies or getting assistance from them and then progress into arcane spell power.

[faceroll]

Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium aren't on the book list, so I'm not sure where you can get either Inspirational Boost or Badge of Valor.

Charisma is a bit low for the save-or-lose effects to go off with high reliability.

Make sure you invest in UMD. Scrolls show up in random treasure frequently, and it's easy to pretend to be a caster if you've got wands & etc.

[Gwendol]

Inspirational boost is in Complete Adventurer.

[Redland Jack]

Gwendol/faceroll: So it sounds like Inspirational Boost is good to go. I'll have to look at what sort of duration I get on that (if I go the ToB route, since my caster level will be 4 -- or 8 with Practiced Spellcaster, I suppose). Even though it doesn't synergize with Song of the White Raven, I can imagine there would be some encounters where I'd prefer to swift Inspirational Boost and then Inspire Courage and others where I'd prefer to swift Inspire Courage and take a standard action.

I'll have to see which way the wind is blowing on Badge of Valor (of course, at the rate I'm making money, it'll be level 20 before I can afford it!)

On Lingering Song, do battles typically last more than 5-6 rounds? One of our early battles did last forever (the druid cast entangle, which really ground things to a halt), but I don't have a good idea on how long they usually go at higher levels.

faceroll: UMD definitely sounds like the way to go. The only time it wouldn't be too exciting is if I went the Sublime Chord route, since my spell list would be pretty huge anyway. Though I may very easily be missing other good uses of the ability.

Vangor: I'll have to look in on the masterwork lute/panpipes and see what they do (currently I'm just a singer, but that can always change). None of that stuff is available in the town at this point, but I could always invest a few points in crafting and make them myself!

Gwendol: Sadly, my stats are now set (the DM is nice about swapping feats and skills, but not, unfortunately, attributes). I definitely didn't pick optimally.

Oh, incidentally, spellwise at level 4, I think I'd be looking at knowing: Grease, Charm Person, Inspirational Boost, Glitterdust, and Alter Self?

[faceroll]

In my experience, 5-6 combat rounds is average, especially with bigger groups. Boss battles tend to last around 10 to 12 rounds, while easy encounters last 1 to 3 rounds.

UMD lets you use scrolls from any list, which means the 30% or so of random divine scrolls, wands, and staves that drop, you can use. You can also use it to use items that have alignment, racial, or other requirements. That comes up less often, but it's handy to have it. The problem, of course, is having to spend all the skill points on it.

Speaking of skill points, train ranks in tumble. The DC is only 15 to 21, depending on how many enemies threaten you. Once you can reliably hit a DC 15, I would stop putting ranks in it.

Spell selection looks good, and if you end up picking up a hat of disguise later, it looks like your houserules may let you repick disguise self. Otherwise, that's a really solid spell line up.
Some other 2nd level spells you may want to look at:
Tactical Precision and Sonic Weapon may also interest you, as they will both increase the damage output of your party. If you have a monk, Sonic Weapon will affect all her attacks. Swift Fly and Swift Invisibility are a couple really useful spells, too. Those spells are from CAdv. CArc has Slashing Weapon, which lets you toss your weapon and magically make one attack vs. every creature in a 60ft line, as if you had just attacked them in melee. It's nifty, but might require some finagling to make potent.

[Redland Jack]

With my (overly) high intelligence, I should have plenty of skill points to continue to buy UMD as a cross-class skill even if/when I switch out of bard.

Nice! Tactical Precision looks like exactly the kind of spell I'd want for this character. I'd say it's better than Alter Self for what I'm trying to do.

I'll definitely pump up Tumble. In particular, if I'm using stuff like tactics of the Wolf and Tactical Precision, it could be very useful.

It looks like I can do a lot of pretty useful things with my spells, so I'm now leaning towards something like:

Bard 4 / Warblade 7 or 10 / Jade Phoenix Mage 6 or 9, with the WB and JPM levels being interspersed to craft the proper array of Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, and White Raven maneuvers.

I think this should give me fun things to do at pretty much every level from 1-20.

Feats:
3- Song of the Heart
4- Weapon Finesse (rebuy on my level 1 Point Blank Shot)
5- Song of the White Raven (rebuy on my level 1 Extra Music)
6- Practiced Spellcaster
9- Obtain Familiar
12- Improved Familiar (if I wade into the fray a lot, maybe a Blink Dog. If I'm slower to enter the fray, maybe some sort of Mephit)

Skills:
Major Focus on Concentration, UMD, Tumble, Perform, Diplomacy
Minor Focus on Balance, some Knowledges, Speak Language

[Gwendol]

With bard 4 please do keep Bardic lore (rather than switch to Bardic Knack), but don't forget to spend 5 ranks on Knowledge: History for the bonus.

Now, I know you don't have access to the Magic Item Compendium (yet) but try and persuade your DM: Tell him the random treasure tables are really good.

In that you'll find Boots of the Acrobat: cheap, gives +2 to Tumble, and 3 charges/day of extra 10' movement (or 30' extra if spent all at once). It's like giving you swift Expeditious retreat without having to spend the spell slot.

Tumble is your friend, especially if you want to cast spells or fire your bow without provoking (or having to spend skill points on concentration).

[Keld Denar]

Eh, I'd skip the JPM and stick with a healthy Warblade/Crusader blend. JPM doesn't progress IC, and its maneuver selection is craptacular, slow, and...narrow. Just flip flop a bit between Warblade and Crusader, both of which stack with Bard levels for IC due to SotWR, and you'll be pretty straight.

[Redland Jack]

Gwendol -- That sounds reasonable. In particular, as long as I don't go Sublime Chord (which appears to have a major skill tax), I should have enough skill points to devote them to grabbing synergies if that seems reasonable (Knowledge: History, Jump, and maybe Bluff being decent looking choices for Synergy alone) and something like Balance (which does a decent job of negating my Grease spell!)

Keld Denar -- Yeah, Desert Wind does look like a pile of garbage, though Devoted Spirit seems okay.

There are definite advantages to just sticking with Warblade: 5 extra hit points per level, much faster access to a couple of good class features (Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative, and Battle Cunning), quicker (and 1 or 2 more) advancements to Inspire Courage, and, perhaps most importantly, the ability to squeeze in more White Raven/Diamond Mind maneuvers (and maybe pick up a couple of decent looking ones from Iron Heart).

The big advantage from Jade Phoenix Mage is, of course, better (and more) bard spells. I'd also be able to grab an extra readied maneuver and the quicken spell feature looks pretty decent.

Under the JPM model (B 4/JPM 9/WB 7), I'd end up with (something along the lines of) these maneuvers (in order):

Leading the Charge
Moment of Perfect Mind (will)
Tactical Strike
Leading the Attack (swap out later)
Douse the Flame (swap out later)
White Raven Tactics
Insightful Strike
Tactics of the Wolf
Shield Block
Divine Surge (swap out later)
Rallying Strike
Thicket of Blades
Order Forged From Chaos
**Use Feat for Moment of Alacrity?**
Castigating Strike
White Raven Hammer
Strike of Righteous Vitality
War Master's Charge

Going with just Warblade, I'd probably be able to pick up Moment of Alacrity (without using a feat), Greater Insightful Strike, Diamond Defense, Iron Heart Surge, Iron Heart Defense, and some better mid-level White Raven maneuvers (via swap out).