The Enlightened Spirit (A.K.A. ANOTHER Warlock Thread)

[Etrivar]

Hullo Hullo!

With the recent flurry of warlock threads, I want to throw my own in.

I really like the fluff of the Enlightened Spirit Class from CMage, and I like what class features there are, but its utter lack of invocation progression is a deal-killer.

So the big question is: Would simply giving it an invocation progression fix it? If so: ?/10

Thank you in advance!

[MeeposFire]

If you gave it full invocations with the extra damage dice as an additional bonus it would be a slower good version of the hellfire warlock. It would be better than anything for warlocks but still would not change the overall power level of the class relative to others (sort of like aburant champion for gishes best at it but not game breaking by any means).

[Etrivar]

OH... you mean leave the extra dice in the description there and have the dice progress via the invocation progression. Gotcha. I suppose that would be a good way to address the underpowered-ness of the warlock.

[true_shinken]

I suppose that would be a good way to address the underpowered-ness of the warlock.
...a Warlock is not underpowered, son.

[Amnestic]

...a Warlock is not underpowered, son.

Depends what you're comparing it to, doesn't it? I mean, it's probably underpowered compared to...Druid/Planar Shepherd :smalltongue: Not so much a Commoner, Truenamer or Samurai.

[Draz74]

...a Warlock is not underpowered, son.

Warlock is a strong Tier 4. That makes it mildly underpowered in a Tier 3-based game (which is often the level people assume).

Note the word "mildly," which means it can easily be overcome with a few optimization tricks. But especially if played "out of the box" by someone who doesn't even know about Eldritch Glaive, yeah, Warlock is underpowered in many games.

[Forged Fury]

I aways wondered how their aura worked. Specifically, I wondered if (with flight and invisibility) they could simply fly over the heads of their opponents (but within 5') and then fly away. Does their 1st level debuff effect everything they pass over and for how long?

[true_shinken]

Warlock is a strong Tier 4. That makes it mildly underpowered in a Tier 3-based game (which is often the level people assume).

Note the word "mildly," which means it can easily be overcome with a few optimization tricks. But especially if played "out of the box" by someone who doesn't even know about Eldritch Glaive, yeah, Warlock is underpowered in many games.

I concede your point.

[Etrivar]

...a Warlock is not underpowered, son.

Can be true (damage wise) if played in one specific way. Most of the warlock's usefulness comes from the intelligent and ingenuitive application of their Invocations, rather than just using EB to damage. But I would like to have a warlock capable of dealing decent damage without resorting to being a Hellfire GlaiveLock.

[true_shinken]

But I would like to have a warlock capable of dealing decent damage without resorting to being a Hellfire GlaiveLock.
Just use eldritch claws, then.

[Etrivar]

Eldritch Claws?

[IthroZada]

Eldritch Claws?

Dragon Magazine #358. As a swift action (that needs to renewed every round) you turn your eldritch blast into two claw attacks.

Edit: My bad, as a free action. Even better.

[Etrivar]

The only difference between that and Eldritch Glaive is that the glaive is a weapon and has reach. Unless I'm missing something :smallconfused:

[Urpriest]

The only difference between that and Eldritch Glaive is that the glaive is a weapon and has reach. Unless I'm missing something :smallconfused:

You can't full attack with the glaive. Also the glaive isn't a weapon, and the claws are. And as natural weapons, anything that works on natural weapons works on them.

[Etrivar]

You can't full attack with the glaive.

Not true. It says in the description that as part of the full round action you can make as many attacks as your base attack bonus allows. That's the only reason that it is any better than just using your eldritch blast (except for threatening with reach).

[Urpriest]

Not true. It says in the description that as part of the full round action you can make as many attacks as your base attack bonus allows. That's the only reason that it is any better than just using your eldritch blast (except for threatening with reach).

Which isn't a full attack. Any ability you can use with a full attack (other natural weapons, pounce, etc.) won't work with it.

[MeeposFire]

Not true. It says in the description that as part of the full round action you can make as many attacks as your base attack bonus allows. That's the only reason that it is any better than just using your eldritch blast (except for threatening with reach).

Which means 4 attacks max and haste and the like don't work with it. Also the glaive is not actually a weapon so it does not count for stuff that requires a weapon.

Claws are a lot better (it has a much higher ceiling) but it is dragon content so it is not as accepted as it could be.

[IthroZada]

Which means 4 attacks max and haste and the like don't work with it. Also the glaive is not actually a weapon so it does not count for stuff that requires a weapon.

Claws are a lot better (it has a much higher ceiling) but it is dragon content so it is not as accepted as it could be.

And the claws have the distinct drawback of being neither touch or reach. Which, while they are still quite useful, are major selling points of the glaive.

[MeeposFire]

And the claws have the distinct drawback of being neither touch or reach. Which, while they are still quite useful, are major selling points of the glaive.

True but those can be dealt with. Glaive is limited to at best 4 attacks (8 if they quicken but only 3 times a day) and you can only get so many d6s from cheesing out hellfire. Unlike accuracy and reach those are insurmountable (though I would say that glaive is very fun). Plus glaive is a full round action which hurts its stock as well.

[ThunderCat]

Wrong thread

[true_shinken]

True but those can be dealt with. Glaive is limited to at best 4 attacks (8 if they quicken but only 3 times a day) and you can only get so many d6s from cheesing out hellfire. Unlike accuracy and reach those are insurmountable (though I would say that glaive is very fun). Plus glaive is a full round action which hurts its stock as well.
Actually, you could get 5 attacks/round with an eldritch glaive (bab 16 plus snake's swiftness from your familiar), plus attacks of oportunity.
But claw is still better in raw damage output. Glaive is better for debuffing.

[MeeposFire]

Haven't heard of snakes swiftness I must admit where is that from and what does it do exactly?

[Etrivar]

Wrong thread

Thank You.

[true_shinken]

Haven't heard of snakes swiftness I must admit where is that from and what does it do exactly?

It's a 2nd level spell, I think it's in Spell Compendium. Target gains one attack.

[Thiyr]

You can't full attack with the glaive. Also the glaive isn't a weapon, and the claws are. And as natural weapons, anything that works on natural weapons works on them.

Yknow, this made me wonder. Can you use improved natural attack on said claws? For someone looking to do damage with their EB, that sounds like it could make itself decidedly right quick, if it applies to the EB damage. Moreso if, say, hellfire would apply to it. (Not really looking at books, so no idea on wordings, sadly)

[MeeposFire]

Yknow, this made me wonder. Can you use improved natural attack on said claws? For someone looking to do damage with their EB, that sounds like it could make itself decidedly right quick, if it applies to the EB damage. Moreso if, say, hellfire would apply to it. (Not really looking at books, so no idea on wordings, sadly)

Yes but what does it do? You have two parts

1) unarmed damage
2) eldritch blast damage

No other natural attack in the game has two sets of dice in the base damage so there is no precedent. Personally I say put imp natural attack on unarmed attack and avoid the head ache. Put on enough size boosters and beast strike and it will be awesome since it is then double good.

[IthroZada]

Yes but what does it do? You have two parts

1) unarmed damage
2) eldritch blast damage

No other natural attack in the game has two sets of dice in the base damage so there is no precedent. Personally I say put imp natural attack on unarmed attack and avoid the head ache. Put on enough size boosters and beast strike and it will be awesome since it is then double good.

And the best part about Beast Strike is that you are now fighting with unarmed attacks, and not claws, so you get iterative attacks.

[true_shinken]

And the best part about Beast Strike is that you are now fighting with unarmed attacks, and not claws, so you get iterative attacks.

That's not all. You get your iteratives with beast strike and then you use your claws as secondary weapons. Beast Strike is so good for eldritch claw builds that it's not even funny. Heh, what am I saying. It's funny as hell. :smallamused:



Yes but what does it do? You have two parts

1) unarmed damage
2) eldritch blast damage

No other natural attack in the game has two sets of dice in the base damage so there is no precedent. Personally I say put imp natural attack on unarmed attack and avoid the head ache. Put on enough size boosters and beast strike and it will be awesome since it is then double good.
You can do like I did in the melee warlock handbook and make sure your unamed strike deals d6s of damage.

[MeeposFire]

That's not all. You get your iteratives with beast strike and then you use your claws as secondary weapons. Beast Strike is so good for eldritch claw builds that it's not even funny. Heh, what am I saying. It's funny as hell. :smallamused:

It is unfortunately the sort of situation that tends to give dragon magazine material a bad name (though this is nowhere near the worst stuff it has put out).:smallfrown:

[true_shinken]

It is unfortunately the sort of situation that tends to give dragon magazine material a bad name (though this is nowhere near the worst stuff it has put out).:smallfrown:

You should think PHB would have this reputation as well. Druids are there, with Natural Spell. Wizards are there, with Rope Trick, Forcecage and all their other goodies.
This is a silly prejudice against Dragon Magazine. Broken stuff is everywhere in 3.5, and Beast Strike is not even that. An ubercharger still outdamages you if you don't use hellfire.

[MeeposFire]

You should think PHB would have this reputation as well. Druids are there, with Natural Spell. Wizards are there, with Rope Trick, Forcecage and all their other goodies.
This is a silly prejudice against Dragon Magazine. Broken stuff is everywhere in 3.5, and Beast Strike is not even that. An ubercharger still outdamages you if you don't use hellfire.

Oh the players handbook should too. Unfortunately people treat the PHB like it is some great book when it has some of the worst offenses in 3.5. It gets a pass since it is the core book for players. It is too bad.