Thunder Lance Optimization

[Aemoh87]

I want to build a wizard who persists Thunder Lance and Call lighting.

Here are some problems:
I need prestige classes that would make me good at fighting in melee. (I thought there were prestige classes focused around creating weapons.)
I need a way to cast call lighting, its normally a druid spell.
I need a way to persist the two spells (can't remember if you can persist Call Lighting or not.)

This may require being an Arcane Hierophant and using Bone Talisman.

Any suggestions?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

You can't persist call lightning, sadly, as it's a Medium range "Effect: lightning bolt" spell rather than a personal-range "Effect: call down a lightning bolt" spell.

However, if you just want to make a melee-focused arcanist with call lightning, one option is a duskblade/sacred exorcist/abjurant champion with Extra Spell (call lightning) and Extra Spell (thunderlance) if your DM allows Extra Spell to pick spells off other lists, or duskblade/sacred exorcist/wyrm wizard/abjurant champion if not. You have full BAB, lots of low-level spell slots for call lightning, and persistent thunderlance (Sacred Exorcist + Alternative Source Spell + DMM: Persist). Not the most powerful option, but probably the most straightforward.

[Aemoh87]

I might have to go a different route like quicken for Call Lighting.

What book is Wyrm Wizard from?

Another route may be arcane thesis for Thunder Lance and Call Lightning.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

What book is Wyrm Wizard from?

Dragon Magic.

[Aemoh87]

I like it, but I think I might use Meta Magic cheese instead to cast a cheap Persisted Thunder Lance and a cheap Quickened Call Lightning.

[Claudius Maximus]

As a general tip, you might want to look into getting Int/Cha to attack or damage more than once on that Thunderlance. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) can probably help you.

[Aemoh87]

Yeah, I have some ideas how to pump it up further. But I really just need to get the character to work first, then I will raise damage. This is for a low optimization camp, which is why I am focusing on weird spells.

[Keld Denar]

You'd almost need the illumian race to do this at lowish levels. They can persist up to 2 spells per day with 12 turn attempts. So an illumian NaenHoon sigil sorcerer/warm wizard/ sacred exorcist could pull this off by what, ECL 11? 12?

EDIT: by that ECL, you could almost persist an empowered Thunderlance. That would kick ass.

[Kansaschaser]

Once you get the Thunderlance Persisted, here is one fun thing to do.

Cast Heroics 4 times. It's only a 2nd level spell, so you should have plenty.

Give yourself (in this order):

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack.

Then you can Whirlwind Attack everything within 20 feet of you during combat. Super Fun!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4, you'll get Metamagic Effect which can apply Persistent Spell to Thunderlance and various other buffs, 9th level spells at caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster, and a +16 BAB.

You could just not worry about BAB and instead use Persistent Wraithstrike so all of your melee attacks are made as touch attacks. In either case, be sure to cast (Extended) Greater Magic Weapon on the Thunderlance every day. You could use Snowcasting to give Thunderlance the [Cold] descriptor, then Energy Substitution to change it to [Electric], and then use Born of the Three Thunders when you cast it so anyone damaged by it will have to save vs being knocked prone and stunned. That way you're only dazed by Born of the Three Thunders once and not even in combat, and your Three Thunders Thunderlance will last all day.

You can use Arcane Disciple for the Storm or Windstorm domain to get access to Call Lightning, though only 1/day. Another option would be the Storm Bolt reserve feat in Complete Mage. Probably the best one yet would be to get Persistent Stormrage, which you would probably need to get Arcane Disciple for a domain that grants Miracle and use that to emulate the spell since it's only on the Cleric and Druid lists. Yet another option would be Persistent Dragon Breath (Blue) for a line of electricity, which you could again use the Snowcasting, Energy Substitution, and Born of the Three Thunders trick with so everyone damaged by it has to save vs knocked prone and stunned.

[Person_Man]

I don't see that much of a need to Persist Thunder Lance. It's only a 4th level spell that lasts 1/round per level. It'd be easier just to cast it before combat start, Quicken it, or do some action juggling.

Call Lightning is a Druid 3 spell, so you can just put it in a Wand (which can be made for any caster level, at an appropriately adjusted price).

In terms of optimization tricks for either or both, consider:

Get as small as possible: Gives you a bonus to hit, AC, and Hide, and opens up a few obscure feat tricks (Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk). Thunder Lance has a defined damage and reach which is not modified by your size.
Factotum: 3/4 BAB, awesome Skills, Int based opposed checks, and access to a small number of arcane spells, and Cunning Surge, which gives you extra Standard Actions.
Use Alter Self: Go google up the optimization thread for it. It's a very handy way to alter your size, movement (adding flight, swim, or burrow as needed), and boost stats. If you want to go overboard you can use Polymorph, but I hate players who do that.
Stack X to Y bonuses: Claudius gives you the link. It's not hard to get Cha*2 or *3 to everything. An Int based Factotum works to, although he's more dependent on Inspiration points.
Get a Familiar: They can Share Spells (like Alter Self), and deliver touch spells on the first round (giving you another action advantage).

[Aemoh87]

I am starting to feel that Incantrix is the correct path. And you guys are offering some cool ideas. One thing I am talking to my DM about is maneuvers with the thunder lance.

But I do enjoy your comments so far and they have given me lots to think about. Illumian is one of my favorite races so I love to see them promoted whenever they can be. I also enjoy seeing the stat swapping thread being spread, it is both a blessing and a curse.

But with that said Incantrix is the preferred route. For flavor though my character will not be wearing any armor, unless it's magical. Keep it up guys, oh and could some one get me something to drink. I am parched :)

[Darrin]

I want to build a wizard who persists Thunder Lance and Call lighting.


I'd look at something like:

Race: Human/Azurin/Strongheart Halfing
Bard 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/JPM 9
Feats:
1) Extend Spell, Energy Substitution
3) Born of Three Thunders
6) Melodic Casting
9) Presistent Spell
12) Metamagic Song
15) Heighten Spell
18) Extra Music or Quick Recovery

Spell Secret gets you thunderlance (or any other weaponlike spell, such as flame dagger, scimitar of sand, ice axe, sonic whip, etc.). Range is already fixed on those, so you can persist that without any Reach/Ocular shenanigans. Born of Three Thunders adds a save vs. stun and save vs. prone, and Sonic Might adds +1d6 sonic damage per spell level (Heighten Spell for more damage).

Call lightning... you can get that onto your spell list with Arcane Disciple: Storm domain, but making it persistable would be really, really tricky... I'm not sure if Ocular Spell would work on something with no "Target:" entry, and I'm not sure how that could be added to an existing spell (maybe something with Spellguard of Silverymoon?). I tried digging around for a similar spell with more persistent-friendly stats, but the best I could come up with was an Ocular shroud of flame or sonic rumble.

[Aemoh87]

Sonic Rumble sounds cool. It would defiantly fit the flavor of this character.

No idea what JPM is though :(

Also I am looking for a way to increase the volume of his voice, just for funzies.
But the info you posted Darrin is good stuff, and some of it will definitely go into the character. I am defiantly looking at Thicket of Blades as one of the maneuvers I want :) (well stances I want, but it means I will need combat reflexes)

[AngelisBlack]

Out of curiousity, can Power Attack be used on Thunder Lance at all?

[Darrin]

No idea what JPM is though :(


Sorry, should have spelled it out. JPM = Jade Phoenix Mage. You lose more caster levels than Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom, but you make up for it a bit with Awesomesauce.


Out of curiousity, can Power Attack be used on Thunder Lance at all?

That's not entirely clear... the "Weaponlike Spells" section in Complete Arcane is silent on the issue of Power Attack + flame blade. So it's probably up to a DM's call. I believe most of the Practical Optimizers on this board allow PA to be used on melee touch attacks. PA = untyped damage bonus, not a Strength bonus.

[Aemoh87]

I agree, I would allow power attack with it. I am also working with the DM to allow fighter feats for the Thunder Lance which is very questionable.

[nedz]

...
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack.
...

I like this, but I think you also need Combat Expertise.

[Thurbane]

Not so good for a caster, but 3 levels of Binder (+ Improved Binding) gets you Paimon - Whirlwind Attack all day long without all the messy reqs. Also, Dance of Death - attack everyone you pass in a move action, 1/5 rounds (and other goodies: +4 untyped DEX bonus, Uncanny Dodge etc.).

To use it in a caster build, maybe dip Binder 1, then some levels of Anima Mage. You can even do it with no Binder, using the Bind Vestige feats...considered quite cheesey, even if totally RAW.

[Aemoh87]

I am gonna look into binder today alittle bit. Is there a prestige to move my arcane casting forward at the same time?

But currently I am thinking.
Incantrix (DM knows I am using this on ****ty spells so he is not concerned at all)
Persisted Thunder Lance ()
Quickened Call Lighting (4th?, PHB)
Whirling Blade (2nd, SpC)
Thicket of blades Stance + Combat Reflexes

Update: Read binder and I like it. I am not a big star wars nerd but this is making me think sith/jedi type character really fast.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I am gonna look into binder today alittle bit. Is there a prestige to move my arcane casting forward at the same time?

Anima Mage advances arcane and binding, and focuses on metamagic (lets you give up a vestige ability to power metamagic, for instance), so it should synergize well with your build.

[Aemoh87]

I just finished reading that. It is likely what I will take. Then I may burn feats to get thicket of blades. This build is starting to sound sweet.

Scratch that, Jade Phoenix Mage.

So it is starting to look like this.

Wizard and Binder. Anima Mage and Jade Phoenix Mage. Just get enough Binder/Anima so I can persist Thunder Lance once per day and get Paimon and Focalor Vestiges. Then the Rest is Jade Phoenix.

Any Tips on easy entry into Anima mage. I have heard if you take the bind vestige feat, 1 level of binder, 3 of wizard you can get in at level 6. I would be Jade Phoenix Mage by level 12. This also means no Incantrix which is optimal.

[nedz]

Update: Read binder and I like it. I am not a big star wars nerd but this is making me think sith/jedi type character really fast.

Then what you need is to play is a Fey-Touched Halfling.
Mechanically worse than useless; but you can make you appearance Green skinned with pointy ears.

[Aemoh87]

Then what you need is to play is a Fey-Touched Halfling.
Mechanically worse than useless; but you can make you appearance Green skinned with pointy ears.

I was literally thinking yoda because this character will be doing 20ft threat whirlwinds and dance of death with a force javalin. I even have a way to throw the weapon so it returns and force lightning.

I just need a force push and some persuasion abilities :)

[Lyndworm]

Once you get the Thunderlance Persisted, here is one fun thing to do.

Cast Heroics 4 times. It's only a 2nd level spell, so you should have plenty.

Give yourself (in this order):

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack.

Then you can Whirlwind Attack everything within 20 feet of you during combat. Super Fun!
Unfortunately, you can't do that by RAW (or RAI, probably). Heroics has a specific clause that says it can't be used to qualify for feats, and a specific clause that says you must qualify for the feat taken. So in order to get Whirlwind Attack through Heroics you must already have the feats Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Hardly a worthwhile investment.



Now that I've popped that ballon, I'm going to go back through this thread and steal nearly everything for my own nefarious purposes. :smallamused:

[nedz]

I was literally thinking yoda because this character will be doing 20ft threat whirlwinds and dance of death with a force javalin. I even have a way to throw the weapon so it returns and force lightning.

I just need a force push and some persuasion abilities :)

Spells there are for this.
Battering Ram [SpC] Lvl 2, T-K later.
Charm Person, Suggestion.

Actually Fey-Touched get Charm Person as an SLA - 1/day.
Mechanically better is to take 1 level of Half-Fey (from savage progressions) for Charm Person at will, and a bunch of other mind effecting SLAs. Since these are all Cha based, then Sorc works better than Wiz. You never take the 2nd level of Half-Fey (Most Probably).

[Aemoh87]

Spells there are for this.
Battering Ram [SpC] Lvl 2, T-K later.
Charm Person, Suggestion.

Actually Fey-Touched get Charm Person as an SLA - 1/day.
Mechanically better is to take 1 level of Half-Fey (from savage progressions) for Charm Person at will, and a bunch of other mind effecting SLAs. Since these are all Cha based, then Sorc works better than Wiz. You never take the 2nd level of Half-Fey (Most Probably).

I am so tempted to go sorcerer, buuuuut that one level delay in progression scares me :( Also I am thinking maybe a monk dip with either Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk. That would do yoda proud. I will continue to scavenge the mind effecting spells and possible force pushes even though bull rush looks to be exactly what I am looking for.

One question though what do you mean about T-K later? Telekinesis?

Thanks a ton.

[nedz]

I am so tempted to go sorcerer, buuuuut that one level delay in progression scares me :( Also I am thinking maybe a monk dip with either Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk. That would do yoda proud. I will continue to scavenge the mind effecting spells and possible force pushes even though bull rush looks to be exactly what I am looking for.

One question though what do you mean about T-K later? Telekinesis?

Thanks a ton.

T-K = Telekinesis, yep.

Battering Ram is a close range effect

I've been thinking about how you build Yoda for quite a while. I'm not a big SW fan, other than the first movie - which they renumbered for some reason, it was just an interesting question.

Warlock for Eldritch Glaive is another option, but Thunderlance does look more fun. Shame you have to wait for 4th level spells though.

Speaking of Levels :-
Fey Touched is LA+1
Half Fey is LA+1, then +2

Sorc has a better feel than Wiz for this character.

Why dip Monk ?
Thats another level you have to wait for Thunder Lance.

[Fax Celestis]

Doesn't thunderlance destruct if it meets a force effect, dispelling it? That would sort of put a damper on your game, particularly if someone's wearing, say, bracers of armor or using a force shield ring.

[Lyndworm]

It dispels the force effect if you win a CL check, but the thunderlance "remains whether you succeed or fail on the check."

Thunderlance is awesome.

[Aemoh87]

Well I found I can early enter Anima Mage using precocious apprentice and the binding feat. Plus I don't really want this character wearing armor. So something like battledancer or monk with the feat that switches it to CHA would work :)

Its kind of a flavor choice plus it will give me high AC which yoda defiantly has. But I am not really interested in spells after 4th level so I have room to dip after I get thunderlance, even though it would be nice to have before.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Since you'll have a decent amount of spells, don't overlook the Arcane Strike feat. Technically, Thunderlance is a weaponlike effect, IIRC. DM should allow the feat stacked on top of an already powerful spell.

Arcane Strike
[General]

You can channel arcane energy into your melee attacks.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, base attack bonus +4

Benefit: When you activate this feat (a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity), you can channel arcane energy into a melee weapon, your unarmed strike, or natural weapons. You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) to do this, but you gain a bonus on all your attack rolls for 1 round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to ld4 points x the level of the spell sacrificed. The bonus you add to your attack rolls from this feat cannot be greater than your base attack bonus. For example, Yarren the bladesinger has a base attack bonus of +11 and the ability to cast 4th-level arcane spells. On his turn, he chooses to sacrifice one of his 4th-level spells for the day, marking it off as if he had cast it. Until his next turn, Yarren gains an extra +4 bonus on his attack rolls and an extra 4d4 points of damage with a single melee weapon of his choice (his rapier).

Rulebook: Complete Warrior (p. 96)

[absolmorph]

On Arcane Strike: while the attack roll bonus overlaps, the damage bonus stacks, so you can go nova on a really major boss to finish 'em off.

[Person_Man]

Not so good for a caster, but 3 levels of Binder (+ Improved Binding) gets you Paimon - Whirlwind Attack all day long without all the messy reqs. Also, Dance of Death - attack everyone you pass in a move action, 1/5 rounds (and other goodies: +4 untyped DEX bonus, Uncanny Dodge etc.).

To use it in a caster build, maybe dip Binder 1, then some levels of Anima Mage. You can even do it with no Binder, using the Bind Vestige feats...considered quite cheesey, even if totally RAW.

I highly approve of this idea. Paimon is a real gem of low level melee builds. Whirlwind Attack and Dance of Death are hugely useful and fun at ECL 3-5ish when you can theoretically kill an enemy with 1-2 hits. I would also add that a strait Binder could use Karsus (auto-UMD on Wizard spells, +2 DC on ALL magic items including weapons/wands/rods, and Greater Dispel Magic on touch 1/5 rounds) to use Thunder Lance if you could put it in a magic item of some sort (presumably a custom rod or staff).

Just remember that once you hit an effective Binder level of 12 (ECL 10ish), the Binder generally has MUCH better vestige options beyond Paimon. Since Thunderlance is a 4th level spell, you would probably only end up using it with Paimon for a few levels before switching over to some combination of Zceryll, Zagon, the Triad, Vanus, Haures, Chupoclops, etc.

[Aemoh87]

I highly approve of this idea. Paimon is a real gem of low level melee builds. Whirlwind Attack and Dance of Death are hugely useful and fun at ECL 3-5ish when you can theoretically kill an enemy with 1-2 hits. I would also add that a strait Binder could use Karsus (auto-UMD on Wizard spells, +2 DC on ALL magic items including weapons/wands/rods, and Greater Dispel Magic on touch 1/5 rounds) to use Thunder Lance if you could put it in a magic item of some sort (presumably a custom rod or staff).

Just remember that once you hit an effective Binder level of 12 (ECL 10ish), the Binder generally has MUCH better vestige options beyond Paimon. Since Thunderlance is a 4th level spell, you would probably only end up using it with Paimon for a few levels before switching over to some combination of Zceryll, Zagon, the Triad, Vanus, Haures, Chupoclops, etc.

What you failed to notice when the paimon suggestion was made is I wanted call lightning at will as well... WHICH BINDER CAN GIVE ME MAKING IT A FANTASTIC SUGGESTION. I'm fired up! Can you tell!?

Also I came up with a sneaky way to enter Anima Mage early using precocious apprentice and the binder feat.

Much thanks to Thurbane.

[Thurbane]

No worries - always happy to recommend a Binder to fill a role. :smallbiggrin:

[Aemoh87]

Even though this build is not completely optimized, it is exactly what I want.

Thunderlance Persisted through Anima Mage
Call Lightning at will through Binder
Lots of fun combat opportunities from Binder/Jade Phoenix Mage

Also a force push (Battering Ram spell), weapon throw (Whirling Blade), and decent in combat because of Born of Three Thunders (Feat).

Next step. More utility. I plan on taking spells like jump. But I also need some ways to charm and persuade people.

Also I have not decided how I am going to enter Jade Phoenix Mage yet. I know I want thicket of blades for sure but is it worth a martial class dip?

I have decided I will post my finalized version of the character on here because there have been a few people who have helped change the character concept quiet a bit.

[Keld Denar]

Thunderlance is "spearlike", and thus isn't a valid focus for Whirling Blade even if you could use a spell effect as a focus.

Sorry

[Jallorn]

There's a really cool 8th level Wizard/Sorcerer spell (might be 7th, not sure) in the SpC called Lightning Ring, which causes electric damage to all adjacent enemies, and allows you to fire two lightning bolts per round for the duration. Using DMM, it could be persisted, and I'm pretty sure you can elect not to fire the lightning bolts... then just toss on Invisible spell and... :smallcool:

[Aemoh87]

Maybe I need a way for changing Thunderlance to Thundersaber? Is that possible at all? Any ideas. I noticed one other spell that needed it to be slashing damage as well.

I thought there was a feat that allowed you to make small changes to a single spell.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

On a related note, anyone know of an easy/cheesy way to get thunderlance at a lower level? I mentioned this thread to one of my players, and now he wants to make the same sort of thunderlance-focused gish for his next PC, but the game is starting below level 7 and he wants to get his theme going as soon as possible. I know there are plenty of ways to count as casting 4th level spells, but I can't think of any way offhand to actually be able to cast thunderlance at level 2 or 3.

[Aemoh87]

Yes the Thunderlance craze is on. Hop on while you still can. But I am not aware of any way to nab an early thunderlance other than items. I am starting to wonder if you could permanency thunderlance. I have not looked into it at all but that would be NICE.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, I kinda want to make a NaenHoon Illumian Sorcadin who uses his racial ability to persist an Empowered Thunderlance and maybe something like Improved Blinking or Greater Mirror Image. That would be cool...

[Aemoh87]

My favorite Illumian is the symbol that allows you to use Strength for your bonus spells and minimum casting stat. Amazing with non-DC casters. But the Divine Meta-magic one is nice too.

As for changing Thunderlance... I found spell thematics [PGF]... which is kinda like what I want... but not really. Defiantly a DM call and some sweet cuddling... maybe some threats of an optimized character waiting in the wings?

Elven Spell lore could as well, even though they clearly mean a different type of damage lol. Jeeze I am reading between the lines.

I am still looking on race and templates, running with the yoda idea may be nice. And finally I am still searching for my source of Charm Person. Obviously it needs to be charisma based and I might even toss a feat at it just to keep this character unoptimized but effective.

[Person_Man]

On a related note, anyone know of an easy/cheesy way to get thunderlance at a lower level? I mentioned this thread to one of my players, and now he wants to make the same sort of thunderlance-focused gish for his next PC, but the game is starting below level 7 and he wants to get his theme going as soon as possible. I know there are plenty of ways to count as casting 4th level spells, but I can't think of any way offhand to actually be able to cast thunderlance at level 2 or 3.

Not Thunderlance per say. But there are a bunch of weapon-like spells that you can access pretty early - Flame Blade, Scimitar of Sand, Flame Dagger, Spectral Weapon, Wraith Strike, and probably more if you spelunk your way through Eberron and Forgotten Realms spells. Just combine one of the above with increased reach (which is fairly common) and you're set.

Word of caution though: When you're constantly making Touch Attacks you will almost always hit against standard foes. So your DM will soon mix in a wider variety of non-standard foes with high Touch AC to compensate. ("Wait, why does every animal in this forest have Monk and Psychic Warrior levels?") That's the best part about being a caster - you don't have to specialize in just one spell - you can mix it up and try different tactics based on the situation.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Not Thunderlance per say. But there are a bunch of weapon-like spells that you can access pretty early - Flame Blade, Scimitar of Sand, Flame Dagger, Spectral Weapon, Wraith Strike, and probably more if you spelunk your way through Eberron and Forgotten Realms spells. Just combine one of the above with increased reach (which is fairly common) and you're set.

Oh, he's planning to use a variety of weaponlike spells, but he wanted to access thunderlance in particular for the 20-foot reach and force-destroying aspects of it, to be a fairly good defender type (thunderlance + other reach-increasing effects + Stand Still = No, you can't get anywhere near my friends) while getting a pseudo-Pierce Magical Protection against mage armor and shield at the early levels.


Word of caution though: When you're constantly making Touch Attacks you will almost always hit against standard foes. So your DM will soon mix in a wider variety of non-standard foes with high Touch AC to compensate. ("Wait, why does every animal in this forest have Monk and Psychic Warrior levels?") That's the best part about being a caster - you don't have to specialize in just one spell - you can mix it up and try different tactics based on the situation.

I'm the DM in this case, so that shouldn't be a problem; a good part of the opponents will be classed NPCs, and the PCs know not to abuse anything overmuch lest the NPCs start doing the same.

[Aemoh87]

Not Thunderlance per say. But there are a bunch of weapon-like spells that you can access pretty early - Flame Blade, Scimitar of Sand, Flame Dagger, Spectral Weapon, Wraith Strike, and probably more if you spelunk your way through Eberron and Forgotten Realms spells. Just combine one of the above with increased reach (which is fairly common) and you're set.

I haven't looked at all the spells yet, but they don't use Cha for attack and damage plus lack the amazing abilities of Thunderlance.


Word of caution though: When you're constantly making Touch Attacks you will almost always hit against standard foes. So your DM will soon mix in a wider variety of non-standard foes with high Touch AC to compensate. ("Wait, why does every animal in this forest have Monk and Psychic Warrior levels?") That's the best part about being a caster - you don't have to specialize in just one spell - you can mix it up and try different tactics based on the situation.

I am purposely limiting my ability to buff myself so I can only persist 2 or 3 spells a day (saving at least 1 for a recast of Thunderlance as my DM is not afraid to dispel). Wraithstrike is not as annoying to DMs when it is cast regularly (instead of persisted or some other shenanigan) which I do plan on doing. I will use it on high AC only foes, but if I don't have to I won't. I realize this costs me power attack but meh.

I have not given up on optimizing this build, but I will optimize as I need to so I can easily match my party.

[nedz]

Erm, Charm Person is a 1st level spell, ..., or did I miss something in the Errata ?

[Person_Man]

Oh, he's planning to use a variety of weaponlike spells, but he wanted to access thunderlance in particular for the 20-foot reach and force-destroying aspects of it, to be a fairly good defender type (thunderlance + other reach-increasing effects + Stand Still = No, you can't get anywhere near my friends) while getting a pseudo-Pierce Magical Protection against mage armor and shield at the early levels.


Understandable. Again, all I can think of is to put Spectral Weapon or something similar on anything with reach and use Alter Self or Enlarge Person to bump it up to 20 ft, and/or to use the aforementioned Karsus vestige can use Greater Dispel Magic on touch, which would take care of any magical buffs, including Force effects.


Now that I think about it, I now have the desire to build a Whatever 5/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) 6 using Thunder Lance in one hand and a Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) in the other. It wouldn't be particularly optimal, but it would be the perfect character for my 12 year old cousin. "I hit it with my Thunder Lance, and then again with my Holy Sword!!!" has a certain ring to it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Now that I think about it, I now have the desire to build a Whatever 5/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) 6 using Thunder Lance in one hand and a Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) in the other. It wouldn't be particularly optimal, but it would be the perfect character for my 12 year old cousin. "I hit it with my Thunder Lance, and then again with my Holy Sword!!!" has a certain ring to it.

Is there any reason he couldn't dual-wield thunderlances, one of which has a holy sword spell cast on it? "I hit it with my Thunder Lance, then hit it again with my Holy Thunder Lance!" has a nice ring to it, too. :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

Don't you need both hands to wield a Thunderlance?

Are there any non-Evocation non-Conjouration weapon spells? My Suel Arcanamach wants to use a similar trick, but he only gets Abjurations, Transmutations, Illusions, and Divinations.

[Claudius Maximus]

Is Thunderlance a valid target for weapon enhancing spells? Holy Sword in particular can be kind of weird in that it suppresses existing magic, and that's all Thunderlance is...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Don't you need both hands to wield a Thunderlance?

Nope, one or two hands, your option.


Is Thunderlance a valid target for weapon enhancing spells? Holy Sword in particular can be kind of weird in that it suppresses existing magic, and that's all Thunderlance is...

Well, it talks about enhancement bonuses and special qualities, and overrides weapon modification spells, but I think it should be fine with spells that actually create weapons.

[nedz]

Holy Thunderlance

It sounds very Batman and Robin to me :smallbiggrin:

[kestrel404]

Another option to consider is Warmage.

Warmage 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 5/Warmage +1/Anima Mage +5/Argent Savant 1/Knight of the Sacred Seal 4
Required Feats: Versatile Spellcaster, Extend Spell, Improved Binding, Weapon Focus (Thunder Lance)

This lets you pull off a Persisted Thunder lance at level 9 with minimal to no cheese, while giving you 3d6+2*int+3 damage with the Thunder Lance as well as the best vestige binding you can get without taking Binder 20. Add in the Shape Soulmeld (Arcane Focus) and Bonus Essentia Feats for an additional +3 damage. If you can convince your GM to use fractional BAB, you also get +11 BAB (otherwise, you only get +9). Of course, your spellcasting will be Cha Based, but it's still pretty sweet.

[Aemoh87]

Erm, Charm Person is a 1st level spell, ..., or did I miss something in the Errata ?

There are ways to get charm person's DC off of HD+Cha not spell level+Cha though, which is tempting.

[Grandmeister]

Never answered in forums - does Power Attack apply to Thunderlance? Wielded Two-Handed?

What Character Level are we aiming at? As far as EPIC ?

[Mato]

Just use bard 6 / lyric thaumaturge 5 / crusader 2 / jade phoenix mage 8, it's simple, clean, advances nicely, and deals more than almost all the other suggestions so far. Take metamagic song, heighten spell, song of the white raven, words of creation, dragon heritage(battle dragon), dragonfire inspiration, and replace suggestion with song of heart. Using flaws you can obtain extend & persist spell or go visit a metamagic storm to pick up persist anyway and buy a +1 harmonizing gauntlet.

Round 1, use a swift action to add up to +12d6 sonic damage to all your attacks then use a standard action to strike someone setting up empowering your next spell for free.
Round 2, cast a persisted empowered thunder lance to last the rest of the day using six uses of bardic music.
Next encounter's surprise round (if applicable), cast heightened sonic weapon using sonic might for up to +7d6 sonic.

Your attacks will deal up to 3d6+str+50% with an extra +19d6 sonic damage. Plus you get bard buffing spells/music and some access to devoted spirit & white raven maneuvers.

[Deophaun]

the question is, why are necromancers interested in thunderlance? (It's over seven years old)

[Grandmeister]

My Lvl 24 Epic character did 3500+ damage, in 1 round 2 weeks ago, with a Thunderlance...

[Ramza00]

1 level of Half Fey from this article gives you charm person *at will.*

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

Unlike traditional Half Fey you can take only 1 level and add it to an existing character including someone who has no history with the fae. Also gives some other abilities, a boost to Cha and Dex but you lose 2 Con.

Now this charm person at will is spell like ability which is good but it gets insane when you take Supernatural Transformation feat. Now the charm person is a surprise ability which makes the save DC be based off your hit dice and your Cha modifier, it is not subject to spell resistance, it takes a standard action but has no verbal, somatic, material, xp components and not subject to attack of opportunity. Thus you can use your charm person at will and the effect is invisible to everyone you can not even use spellcraft to identify it. The target makes it's will saving throw just use the charm person again and again. Once they are charmed you can manipulate them to do almost anything with Charisma checks.

Pretty much you win in so easy ways in non combat conditions unless the target has immunity from enchantment effects.

[Grandmeister]

My Lvl 24 Epic character did 3500+ damage, in 1 round 2 weeks ago, with a Thunderlance...


Quietly not surprised at how this received zero responses.

So much grandiose posturing about maximum damage before my post, but nobody posts anything after being outclassed.

Enjoy :)