Favorite Gish Build?

[Fable Wright]

Gishes- one of the most enjoyable character archetypes there is to play. You get the battlefield control and sheer power of wizards, combined with the damage output and awesomeness of the fighter. Everyone's seen someone play as one at one point or other, and despite the unity of concept, each one functions differently. Swiftblade-based characters might focus on battlefield control, locking down their opponents before ignoring the effect for themselves and charging in with the ability to spring full attack, and timestopping when needed. Or the always-good Abjurant Champion, putting up long-lasting and powerful buffs at swift speeds. Each one is completely unique, be it a battlebard with sustaining 4 songs a round with harmonic weapons, or a mounted combat abuse Knight Phantom- so, I was curious:

What is your favorite build?

Out of all of the millions of different options, which do like the best, and why? Because it's powerful? Because it's fun? Because the DM doesn't often say no to it? Share your builds, playgrounders!

[Coidzor]

Ooo, good idea for a thread... I've not really got all that much experience with routes to take gishes down myself... Trying to figure out one that fits with what I want to do actually, so this is pretty relevant to my interests even if I don't have much to contribute myself... yet.

[RaggedAngel]

Honestly, I've found that one of the cleanest and best ways to pull of the 'Gish' feel is the Swordsage. I was hesitant to play one at first, mostly due to my mistrust of new mechanics. My only regret is that I didn't try it sooner.

Swordsage 20 does not give you the utterly game-shattering power of Wizard 20; however, it does let you fly, and teleport, and shoot huge blasts of fire, and take two full attacks a round; your saves are excellent, you have decent BAB, and great AC. You're not terribly MAD, either, which is nice on a gish.

In the end, you end up with a smooth blend of martial prowess and magical power without resorting to a half-dozen classes and prc's, and you're pretty powerful to boot. By and far my first pick for a gish.

[gorfnab]

I like Bard based gishes. Bards have a decent amount of skills points which helps in meeting prereqs for prestige classes. They also start off with some armor and weapon proficiencies. These and other things make them slightly more forgiving when playing at lower levels before most of the gish related abilities really kick in.

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm biased towards human based gishes largely due to the sexy, sexy Human Paragon levels. Open up with Human Paragon 1, grabbing the extra skills at first level, probably UMD, too, before grabbing the key level in wizard for the casting.

With this set-up, assuming 32 PB, I usually go something like
Str: 14 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 16 Wis: 8 Cha: 8, throwing the free +2 stat in either Int or Str, depending. Build is Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/HP+2/Wizard +2/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom, depending) +X. It's a bit of a late bloomer, assuming Fractional BAB isn't on the table, but it's up an extra feat from Human Paragon, which helps. Depending on things like retraining and other feat shuffles, you could shave off the 3rd level of Wizard.

I'm also a big fan of Crusader-based Jade Phoenix Mage, going Crusader 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion X/Jade Pheonix Mage +Y, in alternating levels for specific maneuvers and what not, using Favored from Cityscape for early entry.

[Thurbane]

Maybe not the most mechanically powerful, but I think it's a fun build: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8919001&postcount=99

Pact Bound Arcanamach: Hexblade 2/Binder 4/KotSS 4/SA 4/Abj Champ 5/Spellsword 1

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Human Paragon 1/Paladin 2/Shugenja 2/HP+2/Divine Oracle 2/Hospitaler X.

Costs you three worthless Feats, but you've got Evasion and you can cast in full plate. If you choose either Air or Earth, you have access to both Fire and Water spells.

Monk 2/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight X, Vow of Poverty, Ascetic Mage, Superior Unarmed Strike.

Monk 2/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1/Ardent 5/Slayer X.

edit: I'm still trying to find a way to exploit Fochlucan Lyrist.

[RelentlessImp]

Dragonwrought Loredrake Dragonspawn (White) Kobold Sorcerer 4/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade +7/X 1. Ends up equal to a 20th level Sorcerer with 17 BAB.

Edit:



edit: I'm still trying to find a way to exploit Fochlucan Lyrist.

Bamboo Spirit Folk (OA) Archivist 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Prestige Bard 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Consider it just slightly exploited.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Bamboo Spirit Folk (OA) Archivist 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Prestige Bard 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Consider it just slightly exploited.

I don't understand how you qualify for any of those Prestige Classes with the build you just listed.

[faceroll]

Duskblade. I'm a gish from level 1.

[Keld Denar]

Sanctum Spell would allow a Wizard1 to cast a spell that counts as 2nd level (thus fulfilling the prereq for MT). Bamboo Spirit Folk gives Trackless Step to qualify for FL. Prestige Bard gives Bardic Music. Evasion can be had with either a Ring of Evasion or by spending 2 feats on Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra(Feet) from ECL 6 on.

Its not pretty, but it works.

My favorite gishes are the standard Sorcadin (Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8) and Pal4/Dusk2 entry into Suel Arcanamach on an Illumian chassis (Pal4/Dusk2/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4) with NaenHoon that lets you use Paladin turning to persist up to 2 Suel spells per day. Once Martial Casting from AbjChamp5 kicks in, you're persistant spells will be virtually undispellable, which is VERY nice.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm biased towards human based gishes largely due to the sexy, sexy Human Paragon levels. Open up with Human Paragon 1, grabbing the extra skills at first level, probably UMD, too, before grabbing the key level in wizard for the casting.


This. Having piles of skills, access to divine items, arcane casting, and being solid at melee? Yup. Then pile into abjurant champion. My current gish in this model also has the Militia feat to qualify for EK, in order to keep my BaB high, but this isn't strictly necessary.

[LordBlades]

My favourite Gish Build is something like this:

Neraph (anything with outsider type works) Focused Specialist Transmuter 3/Master Specialist 2/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8, using Southern Magician and Alternate Spell Source to enable DMM: Persist stuff and Arcane Disciple: War to get access to Divine Power. Full BAB and persistent Bite of the Werebear are just sexy. Also, casts as a wizard 19.

That being said, I enjoy anything gish-like(good spellcasting and good melee), from classical builds to clerics and druids.

[SurlySeraph]

I don't understand how you qualify for any of those Prestige Classes with the build you just listed.

He can get 2nd-level divine spells to qualify for MT various ways, such as with Sanctum Spell. Bamboo Spirit Folk gets you Trackless Step; it's useful for getting into Arcane Heirophant without many Druid levels, but I'm not sure it does anything useful here. You can take Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) + Open Least Chakra to get Evasion. The skill ranks look hard to manage, but probably theoretically doable. He'll also need a way to learn Druidic without being a druid.

EDIT: Also, though my favorite gish build is probably a Sorcadin (Paladin 2/ Sorc 4/ Spellsword 1/ AbjChamp 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8), I think I'm obliged to pimp my +16 BAB and double nines build. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187060)

[DoctorGlock]

On the lower end of the optimization scale, I usually use
Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Martial Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantatrix 3/Eldritch Knight 5
Basic ubercharger feats with the resistance to dying most melee character lack, eventual shapechange shenanigans, persist and not making the rest of the party feel useless.

[gorfnab]

Mystic Ranger with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order can make for a decent gish.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4, 9th level spells and +16 BAB with Metamagic Effect. You can instead start it out Human or Elf Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ etc. I first put this together before CM was printed so it ended with nine Eldritch Knight levels, but that still accomplishes the gish minimum of +16/9th@20.

I'm also a big fan of the Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1, with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. That gets +19 BAB and 20th level Wizard spellcasting. Do note that a Dragonwrought Kobold can never obtain the Dragonspawn template, the Dragonwrought feat grants an inherited creature type which is not compatible with the template, though it requires some reading in Races of the Dragon to discover this.

[pilvento]

Im actually playing a sorcerer3/monk1/enlighted fist4/swiftblade10/abjchamp2

And I am having LOTS OF FUN :smallcool:

[Azernak0]

I'm partial to Cleric 20, Druid 20, or Wizard 20 (with Polymorph).

Aside from the slight joke at the winning of pure magic users, I had a lot of fun with a Sorcadin. 2 level of Paladin, 4 levels of Sorcerer, 1 level of Spellsword, and the rest into Abjurant Champion. If you go Battle Sorcerer, you give up 1 spell known and 1 spell per day per spell level but you gain a D8 HP and 1 BAB overall. Only problem is that it had the same problems most Gishes have; it needs so many ability scores. Charisma to cast, Strength to damage, Constitution not to die, and Dexterity is never a bad thing. Battle Sorcerer alone could probably make a decent Gish but I have not tried it out.

The nice thing about Gishes is that they really fill in some of the monotony of being a melee class. Rather than just "I Power Attack for more/less this time!", you can throw out some spells or just revert to Plan A if you run out. Duskblades are ok but they don't seem as powerful as "traditional" Gish builds. Weapon Channeling is great but I would take an expanded spell list any day of the week.

[Amphetryon]

Dread Necromancer 8/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10.

[Eldariel]

Variety is the spice of life. Still, I love real Gishes that can operate on Dead Magic Zones and all that good stuff. My personal favorites are probably:

- Ranger/Psion/Slayer: So many fun ways to shape time and space in your favor. Be wherever, whenever!
- Wizard/Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion: Swiftblade is a godlike Gish class for super-Hastes with extraordinary goodness.
- Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator: The only good marriage of initiators & casting, this is, of course, infinity of fun and godlike.
- Druid: I have a thing for time-tested classics.

Sadly, I can't with good conscience claim to enjoy Jade Phoenix Mage since the school access is so incredibly restricted that the martial abilities are kinda wasted; Desert Wind dries out real fast for someone with access to real magic, leaving you with exactly one school for most of your career. Considering the book is all about versatility, I cannot with a good conscience claim to enjoy playing the class.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

This. Having piles of skills, access to divine items, arcane casting, and being solid at melee? Yup. Then pile into abjurant champion. My current gish in this model also has the Militia feat to qualify for EK, in order to keep my BaB high, but this isn't strictly necessary.

That's largely my plan. Occasionally, I'll use Otherwordly over Militia, if I can, but Militia itself is solid for jumping into EK. Then, if for whatever reason you don't have enough feats, you grab Heroics for all the fighter feats you could ever want.


That being said, I always forget about Swiftblade and its joys for whatever reasons, but that may be largely due to it competing with Abjurant Champion.

[Thurbane]

You know, a prestige class I've discovered recently in the Hexer - full BAB, 10/10 casting, some hex abilities, and a bonus Sor/Wiz spell known every two levels.

Some of the reqs are a little ugly - must be of a "primitive" humanoid race, Wilderness Lore Survival 10 ranks and Lightning Bolt as a divine spell. I assume Southern Magician* will get you around the spell req (so long as you know Lightning Bolt), and a class dip or feat to get Survival. Ruathar works, although the fluff is a bit at odds with the Hexer.

Of the allowed races (generally, monstrous humanoid, giant, orc, goblinoid or gnoll - although there is some wiggle room), a few make decent casters. Desert Half-orc should qualify (for a CHA based caster). From memory, Lupin is a Monstrous Humanoid with +0 LA.

But yeah, full BAB and full casting - nice. The extra spells known is a real cherry on the top for any spontaneous gish.

*Crud...Southern Magician is a human only regional feat. Still, there are other tricks that allow an arcane caster to prepare a spell as divine. A half-orc with the Human Heritage feat might qualify for Southern Magician.

[herrhauptmann]

Thurbane, which book is the Hexer in?

My favorite gish, well actually I don't have one. I've made several, but the games always fall through at the last second.
Still, I'm a huge fan of the swiftblade PrC, though I'd really prefer to start play having already entered into the PrC. That special requirement can really suck.

[Cog]

Hexer is in Masters of the Wild. Handy list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc).

[Kylarra]

I'm fond of swiftblades personally.

[true_shinken]

I like most Suel Arcanamach builds.
I specially like Duskblade 3/Swashbuckler 3/Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Dragon Disciple 4, because it uses not-so-strong ingredients to make a versatile, mobile gish.

[Keld Denar]

Duskblade3 is kinda superfluous in that build. Arcane Channeling isn't really useful for a Suel, you don't really have any spells to channel without access to Evocation, Necromancy, or Conjouration. I'd dip a level of Fighter or Barb there for the bonus feat or pounce respectively.

[true_shinken]

- Ranger/Psion/Slayer: So many fun ways to shape time and space in your favor. Be wherever, whenever!


Do the impossible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm), see the invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm)!
ROW! ROW! fight the power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAlztMvvNkk)!

Touch the untoucheable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm), break the unbreakable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm)!
ROW! ROW! fight the power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAlztMvvNkk)!



Duskblade3 is kinda superfluous in that build. Arcane Channeling isn't really useful for a Suel, you don't really have any spells to channel without access to Evocation, Necromancy, or Conjouration. I'd dip a level of Fighter or Barb there for the bonus feat or pounce respectively.
You have Duskblade spells. It might feel superfluous at 20, but you need a trick before you get there.




*Crud...Southern Magician is a human only regional feat. Still, there are other tricks that allow an arcane caster to prepare a spell as divine. A half-orc with the Human Heritage feat might qualify for Southern Magician.
Doesn't Hexer advance divine casting only?

[Barlen]

You are mainly calling for arcane gish builds, but if you have room a few divine ones, try this:

Divine gish:
Cleric 4/Ordained champion 5/Prestige paladin 1/Knight of the Raven 10

or as an option
"Paladin"
Cleric 4/Ordained champion 3/Prestige paladin 3/Knight of the Raven 10

KotR is from a Ravenloft campaign module iirc. Both have 17 cleric caster levels, 19 Bab, and an equivalent turn undead level of 18 (KotR looses 2). The last is important as the damage from the ordained champion smite (powered by TU attempts) is based on the effective turn undead level rather than class level.

[Coidzor]

Doesn't Hexer advance divine casting only?

I think it's one of those ones which will advance either but needs a divine spell to enter.

[John Campbell]

My first 3.5 character started out Fighter 1/Wizard 1, and was a Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 4/Runesmith 2/Abjurant Champion 3 when that campaign ended. Would've finished out Abjurant Champion and dipped a level of Spellsword with the remaining pre-epic levels.

I built him on returning to D&D after having not played in a decade, and AD&D then... I'd never touched 3.x before. The DM gave me the PHB to build out of, and only admitted that Eldritch Knight even existed when I demanded to know how to build a fighter/mage that didn't completely suck given the elimination of real multiclassing.

If I'd known then what I know now, the build would've looked more like:

Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 1/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +7.

(I think that hits all the prereqs in time.)

Ends up with +17 BAB, spells as Wizard 18 (CL 20, with Practiced Spellcaster), effectively no ASF on account of free Still Spell on everything, more free metamagics on abjurations (including an auto-Quickened and Extended shield spell that provides +9 AC), and some other special abilities that I'd never use.

[SurlySeraph]

The mention of Ordained Champion reminded me of a trick I thought of recently. Cleric and PrCs 10/ Ordained Champion 3/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 7. Get a really high Use Psionic Device check and at least one dorje of Hustle.

RKV lets you turn Turn Undead uses into swift actions. Hustle lets you turn swift actions into move actions. Ordained Champion lets you channel one spell per move action into your weapon, and the text and errata do not indicate that you are limited to one spell channeled at a time.

As illustrated by Chuck (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5788.0), it's definitely possible to get more Turn Undead uses than you have spells per day. So you can dump all your spells for the day in one glorious strike.
I'd recommend spending one spell on Surge of Fortune to guarantee a natural 20, because channeling every single spell you have and then rolling a 1 would be very depressing.