Stat my Crusader

[Brock Samson]

I rolled quite well (thanks to the odd way we do things)
18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 9

I'm going to be a level 2 Crusader in a pathfinder game. Anyone got suggestions for placement? Obviously an 18 in Str, beyond that I'm not sure. I'm thinking of picking up a level of Cleric eventually btw and going Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[MeeposFire]

18s in str and con would be fine.

Otherwise it ay be good to list what you want to be able to do. For instance a build based on AoO would want a higher dex for combat reflexes. Or if you like having excellent skill access you would not want to put the 9 in int.

[Brock Samson]

Oh, and I'm not sure about race, thinking either Dwarf for the sweet +2 to Con and Wis(?), but a Cha penalty, though gets the sweet +2 on saves against all spells/spell-likes, or human, for a +2 to stat of MY choice and extra feat. Suggestions on that?

It seems like I need str, I need dex (for AoO), I need Con, I need Cha (some at least for extra Will save goodness), and Wisdom is of course good if I want to RKV it, so... do I dump Int then? At least Crusaders get 4+skills/level, so it won't be super-horrible.

[dgnslyr]

Uwhaa? Loaded die? How were you rolling? 5d6b3?

18 Str
9 Dex
18 Con
15 Int
16 Wis
17 Cha

Dex isn't important on a crusader decked out in full plate. Obviously, you'll want your 18s in strength and constitution. The rest of your stats are good, so it really doesn't matter too much what you decide on.

Ruby Knight Windicator is a strong choice. Have fun with it.

When in doubt, stick with humans. They still get their bonus feat in Pathfinder, right?

Out of curiosity, what kind of crusader are you planning? Crusaders quite a fun class to play around with.

[Brock Samson]

Well what "kinds" of Crusaders are there? I think the most important thing is healing myself/allies. And an AoO monster seems good, so I'm not sure I want a low dex. What other types of Crusaders are there?

Yes, humans still get the bonus feat. But you get feats every odd level now, so slightly less important.

[The Rabbler]

Dex isn't important on a crusader decked out in full plate.

This is false. Dex isn't important for AC when you're wearing full plate. Dex is still very important if you plan on (ab)using combat reflexes.

As for building the character, combat reflexes gets you tons of AoOs. Reach makes enemies provoke those AoOs much more often. Besides grabbing a reach weapon, you can pick up Abberation Blood and (subsequently) Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness to improve your base reach by 5ft. Improved Trip and Knockdown allow you to hit something, trip them, and hit them again if the trip was successful on each and every AoO. As for maneuvers, grab anything you want. At level 5, be sure to pick up the Thicket of Blades stance in Devoted Spirit so that even 5ft steps provoke AoOs.

Disclaimer: This is a very solid build in 3.5. I have no idea what PF changed or if this is still possible at all.

[dgnslyr]

Uggh, forgot about that. Good thing I left a disclaimer in my sig.

In that case, Wisdom would be the best dump stat, because you can pump it up high enough to cast 1st level spells with a +2 item. I don't think you'll be needing a high DC for your 1st level spells, so that should work out all right.

[MeeposFire]

18 str
15 dex
18 con
9 int
17 wis
16 cha

Str is high so you will always be ahead of the game and deal good damage.

Dex is high enough to qualify for combat reflexes and items can provide the rest you need.

18 con will make you a brute and hard to kill by damage.

int is low but 3 skills per level is about the same as the average cleric and it does not do anything directly for you.

wisdom is high so you do not need to worry about it. Also helps will saves

Cha is this high mostly for turn undead.

[Brock Samson]

And if I'm in an anti-magic field/area dispel/item lost/item sundered, do I just lose access to my entire prestige class???

I suppose I could just pump my Wis with level bonuses. Or hey, if I start as Dwarf or human I could get a bonus to Wis either way.

Also, what's the word on Sword and Board vs. Two-handed for Crusaders?
Keep in mind that in Pathfinder if I take Power Attack it's a -1 to attack but a +2 to damage for one handed, +3 to damage if two-handed weapon. And can only take a -1 per 4 points of B.A.B.

[MeeposFire]

Yea you want a higher wisdom and since int is not required for anything important on most crusaders it is your best dump stat in my opinion.

[Brock Samson]

Meeposfire, that's a pretty good spread. What do people suggest for race though?

[MeeposFire]

I like humans since I find a feat to be very useful especially in classes that don't grant feats. PF grants more feats but I find I always like having more feats more than most racial features.

[Firechanter]

Disclaimer: I have never played a Crusader, but I'm currently looking into it to help a friend build one for our upcoming campaign.

I would advise against a race with Cha penalty. Though it it would not be an unplayable gimp either. (My aforementioned friend is probably also going to take Dwarf because he thinks they are cool. At the end of the day, it's about having fun.)

Listen to The Rabbler. You want Dex, if mainly for the AoOs it gets you. Besides, later in the game you get Mithral armour that has higher Dex allowances.
Just _qualifying_ for Combat Reflexes isn't enough; you get additional AoOs equal to your Dex mod, so duh, this should be high.

Con should also be high, because as Crusader, you _want_ to be hit.

What stat to dump? Hard to say; a negative always sucks. Since Crusaders get goodies for high Cha, and skill points are always good to have, I'd probably dump Wis. (Your Cha applies to Will Saves anyway so...)

Feats: go Retaliator. Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike. The latter requires Dodge which is crappy, but afaik there are ways to get around this feat tax.
Also plan in Stand Still - together with a Reach weapon and Thicket of Blades, this can be an excellent lockdown build.

Eh right, I almost forgot... you are playing Pathfinder... I guess most of these feats won't exist there. See if you get permission to import them. Otherwise, disregard this notice.

Edit: so here is my proposed array:
Str 18
Dex 17
Con 18
Int 15
Wis 9
Cha 16

As many heads, as many opinions, eh?

[dgnslyr]

If you want to be a trip-monster, 15 int is still the way to go, to qualify for prerequisites. Pump Wis to 11 so you can actually cast cleric spells, since I doubt a high CL will be all that important if you're only dipping one or two levels.

[Firechanter]

Ah I missed the part about your wanting to be a Cleric. Sheesh.
Your stats suck, man! :smallbiggrin:

[MeeposFire]

Cha is not that important to a crusader. It looks important since they tie it to a will save boost and to smites. Thing is you get the will save benefit from having wisdom and the smite does not really need it. Cha is a nice thing to have but is not needed by a crusader (if you want to be good at interacting with people then it becomes more important).

In this case since he wants to add cleric and ruby knight that means will adds spells, spell DCs, and spell levels. This makes it MUCH better than ca.

If it was not for the fact that turning is so good (specifically the number of turns you have) then I would rate cha lower than int. Due to turning it is better but the 16 is the highest I would go as a 17 actually provides a benefit at 17 (opens 7th level spells naturally).

EDIT: caster level is important ruby knight improves spellcasting very well.

[Brock Samson]

Wait, what feats am I going to want that need a high Int? I'm really tempted for this to be my dump stat, but don't want to screw myself over.

[MeeposFire]

Tripping feats that require combat expertise which requires 13 int. This is more expensive in PF requiring 3 feats to pick up 3.5 style imp trip (combat expertis, imp trip, and greater trip that grants you the attack). I personally don't think it is needed on a crusader but it is certainly an option (I find tripping too limited for my tastes).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, even if you go Cleric, CHA is still the best dump stat in this scenario.

A such, I'd probably throw the 18s in STR and CON, the 17 in DEX, the 16 in WIS, and the 15 in INT for the feats it opens up.

[Brock Samson]

Well I could just not go the tripping round, but maybe the Stand Still route (which was updated and is still ok)

[MeeposFire]

Honestly, even if you go Cleric, CHA is still the best dump stat in this scenario.

A such, I'd probably throw the 18s in STR and CON, the 17 in DEX, the 16 in WIS, and the 15 in INT for the feats it opens up.

I would dispute that. Cha adds turning attempts. Turning attempts can be burned for more actions by a ruby knight and actions are the important currency in D&D (and this is not counting the various other ways turning can be used to make you awesome). Tripping is limited. It is way overvalued considering it can be negated by a huge creature or flying in this case. Lock down is much better (robilars, standstill, combat reflexes, and other AoO feats).

[Brock Samson]

Ok then, it's decided. I'm skipping the Tripping build, I'll start with Extra Granted Manuever, work into Combat Reflexes, then Standstill, then Robilar's Gambit (maybe switch those two in importance).

Later grab a level of Cleric for RKV. I feel like I'm missing out on a lot if I don't dip Warblade or Swordsage even just once. What would be the best way to dip, and which class/es?

[The Rabbler]

Ok then, it's decided. I'm skipping the Tripping build, I'll start with Extra Granted Manuever, work into Combat Reflexes, then Standstill, then Robilar's Gambit (maybe switch those two in importance).

Later grab a level of Cleric for RKV. I feel like I'm missing out on a lot if I don't dip Warblade or Swordsage even just once. What would be the best way to dip, and which class/es?

dip warblade after level 8 so your warblade IL becomes 5 and lets you pick up Iron Heart Surge, Action Before Thought, and, if you hadn't already gotten it, White Raven tactics. A lockdown build doesn't really benefit from swordsage beyond the Shadow Blink and perhaps Shadow Stride maneuvers, so it'd probably be a waste to dip. A Martial Study for one of them (if you ever do reach those levels) is certainly a good investment though.

And as a side comment; I really dislike robilar's gambit. Giving them +4 to attacks and damage doesn't seem worth the AoO it generates. Because you're playing pathfinder and have more than enough feats to play around with, I'd go with karmic strike instead (unless it isn't in PF).

[MeeposFire]

Karmic strike still gives you a -4 to AC and it only works on attacks that hit. Robilar works on attacks that hit or miss and only costs you taking 4 more damage per hit (and if there is a class that can take that hit it is the crusader) and you also will not need the dodge feat.

I would prefer robilars but karmic has some value.

[The Rabbler]

Karmic strike still gives you a -4 to AC and it only works on attacks that hit. Robilar works on attacks that hit or miss and only costs you taking 4 more damage per hit (and if there is a class that can take that hit it is the crusader) and you also will not need the dodge feat.

I would prefer robilars but karmic has some value.

my beef with it is that the +4 damage can add up very quickly. I suppose it doesn't matter much if you pump your AC and throw on as many miss chances as possible, but I always build my characters with some damage output and my AC tends to suffer for it. YMMV.

Then again, as we're talking about pathfinder, if the OP were to load up on self-healing maneuvers, he could probably take both and suffer through the horrible AC to abuse stormguard warrior and unleash hell as soon as his turn comes around.

[MeeposFire]

I can see that though the damage from all the AoO you can make from misses will put you ahead of the damage curve in most cases. Robilars would be worse against large numbers of weaker creatures (since they would have more attacks and that +4 is more significant) while robilars is better against smaller numbers of more powerful enemies (since they make less attacks and that +4 is less significant). Assuming they can hit you of course.

[Firechanter]

He's a Crusader. He has the means to "draw aggro", i.e. make it compelling for the enemy to attack him instead of the squishy wizard, and getting hit makes his own attacks stronger. He can heal himself by attacking stuff. If any class lends itself to a retaliatory build, then this.

When I wanted to tell my friend about Crusader and Warblade, I got as far as "The Crusader hits harder after taking damage" when my chum interrupted "No need to keep talking, I'm sold already. The way I tend to take damage that's perfect for me."

Personally, I can see how retaliatory builds can be mighty, but it just isn't my style to be a martyr, so I prefer Warblade.

[Particle_Man]

I would suggest Sword and Board as there are a few very nice abilities that you only get to use if you have a shield.

Btw, if you can convince your DM to modify your Smite ability to be more in line with the PF Paladin Smite ability, things get rosier. :)

I would dump Int, btw.

[Firechanter]

*bump*

Sorry for Hijacking this thread, but I basically have just a quick question:
Are there ready-made builds for "Officer" type characters based on Crusader? I guess Crusader/Bard or suchlike would be a good idea, but I thought I'd ask around before starting from scratch.

I need some as NPCs for level range 8-12 or so.