PF Witch and Summoner to 3.5?

[Ozreth]

Is there a way to successfully incorporate these two classes (especially the summoner) into a 3.5 game?

[Gnaeus]

Sure. Just play them. Neither one is OP compared with T1 classes in 3.5. Witch might want to go easy on their hex selection in certain games.

[Ozreth]

Sure. Just play them. Neither one is OP compared with T1 classes in 3.5. Witch might want to go easy on their hex selection in certain games.

Ah, haven't got the book yet but was under the impression that the summoner at least uses abilities and rules unique to the pathfinder system.

[Infernalbargain]

Ah, haven't got the book yet but was under the impression that the summoner at least uses abilities and rules unique to the pathfinder system.

Only change would be the natural attack rules. However, since the evolutions do actually spell out whether it is a primary or secondary attack it shouldn't come into play really.

[cfalcon]

WARNING THE SUMMONER CHANGES A LOT


Ok, the witch probably requires some nerfs. Bringing the witch as written into 3.5 is a buff, because 3.5 has stronger spells, and her spell access and special abilities are balanced around a stronger baseline. The Pathfinder Wizard, for instance, if you brought straight into 3.5, would be much stronger than the 3.5 wizard, and the Pathfinder Witch is as strong as THAT guy.

Off the cuff, I would delay spell casting by one level starting at level 3, and then I would also houserule the more onerous of the hexes.

HOWEVER- if your 3.5 games allow the "grab bag" method of levelling, with everyone ending up with 18 different classes, 9th level spells, and a BAB of +15- in other words, if you allow multiclassing freely and your players make use of this- then the only change you'll probably need to make is to *prevent your 3.5 characters from accessing the witch class* and to *prevent your witch characters from accessing a bunch of prestige classes- possibly none at all*.

If you are running an unrestricted "RAW" game, of the type folks on this forum tend to talk about a lot, then that's pretty much your biggest change. A Witch 20 is way way better than a 3.5 Wizard 20, but if your game laughs at something like Wizard 20 or ever Wizard 13 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7, then that summation of build will definitely be on par with Witch 20 (probably better, depending).


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THE SUMMONER IS REALLY DIFFERENT:


The summoner himself ports over nicely. You can do it no problem. However, the Eidolon will require some house rules. First of all, the Eidolon is sort of an outsider. He's not, explicitly, an outsider- he just counts as one for spells, gains skill points, BAB, saving throws, and feats as if he is one, etc. You might want to address this. Secondly, the Eidolon normally uses beast-mode natural attacks. For instance, a 1st level Pathfinder Summoner will have an Eidolon with hit 1d10 hit points (not maxxed, because he's a monster), plus his Con bonus. If he's a quadruped, he could have claws, he will have bite, and he can have pounce...

Now, in Pathfinder, that's +1/+1/+1 for 1d6/1d4/1d4 (you add his Str to this, which is likely 14). However, in Pathfinder, all of these are *primary* attacks. In 3.5, there are supposed to be some secondary attacks- his cycle would be +-4/+1/+1 or something. The Pathfinder system is simpler, and makes the monsters a little bit stronger- but this monster is part of a PC.

*This is probably ok*. The Eidolon is generally really good by 3.5 standards. But either resolve to go be Pathfinder rules, or to adapt the Eidolon to 3.5. If you go by Pathfinder rules, be aware that the Eidolon will really mop up starting at about level 2, but if you go by 3.5 rules, your players will likely be punished for choosing natural attack forms until they get multiattack. You might consider awarding multiattack earlier.

Also read heavily up on the summoner over at the Paizo boards. There's been a lot of good clarification and question on him. I play one occasionally in org play, so I've read up an unhealthy amount on them, so I can answer "official summoner play" questions pretty well, but that's not what's necessarily going to work in your games.

Also note, both classes use level 0 spells freely. If you are running 3.5, then the Witch should have the same as the wizard (4 0 level spells), and the Summoner should have the same number of uses daily as your sorcerer.

[cfalcon]

I just want to add, that the Witch's hexes, unaddressed, will be a driving force in low level encounters.

[Bugbeartrap]

I would have to lean the other way on witchs. Having played one in a 3.5/Pathfinder game, they aren't as crazy OP as some people thinks, especially not nearly as powerful as a 3.5 wizard.

First, they cast like wizard from a selected list of spells. While flavorful, this removes the wizard's LARGEST AN MOST POWERFUL ADVANTAGE: his infinite spell list. Don't get me wrong, he has some beauties on that list, but it is a small fraction compared to what a wizard gets. The wizard shines because he can become anything he wants, day to day. The witch has some battlefield control, some debuffs, some direct damage, minor utility; This list is easily viable but lacks the variety the wizard relies on.

"AH! But!", you say. "The witch has Hexes! Some of them are even at will! They only get better as the witch levels!" Yes the witch does get this goody over the wizard but past 6th level they are hardly worth spending anymore time in the witch class. By porting the witch to 3.5 you give up the delicious extra favored class bonus, making prestige classing the most attractive option. No ones going to stick around for Control Weather as an SU ability, when they can take Iot7V or Incantrix or really any other fullcasting PrC, (which the wizard was already going to do). So you end up with a wizard with a smaller spell list and a trick that they used to pull at low levels that is now overshadowed by higher level spells.

Even the Best Hex (Slumber is a single target SoD subject to the most immunities ever) is far from game-breaking. Its awesome in early levels, when you're other choice is crossbow or burning hands, but when the tires hit the pavement in higher levels, it gets left bihind.

Tl;DR If you're fine with wizards, witches are a piece of cake.

EDIT: To add to the bit about Hexes being powerful at low level, slumber still requires team effort to Coup de Grace the slumberer before it wears off.