[TOB]Sudden Leap, am I reading this right?

[Ursus the Grim]

So I was looking at building a Thri-Kreen warblade using the Tiger Claw discipline. While deciding whether to dip in Lion Barbarian for pounce, I noticed on the list of maneuvers that Sudden Leap allows a jump as a swift action. This means I could simple use Sudden Leap to close in with an enemy and then get the full attack. Granted, the average character might have trouble jumping that far, but if they're in the right stance, they get a +10 bonus to Jump anyway.

Why bother with Pounce and dramatic ways to get a full attack with movement when you can dip one level for it, as long as you keep a good Jump check?

I mean, my Thri-Kreen at this point is an ECL 9 with a +50 base Jump check.

In addition, Sudden Leap allows me to move FASTER than my base speed of 40 feet. The maneuver says you move that distance as a swift action, without regard to actual speed. This means I could move FASTER (theoretically 70 feet) as a swift action and proceed to make a full attack.

I wasn't looking to min/max this thing, but it seems like Sudden Leap is a greatly under appreciated trick.

[Morph Bark]

So I was looking at building a Thri-Kreen warblade using the Tiger Claw discipline. While deciding whether to dip in Lion Barbarian for pounce, I noticed on the list of maneuvers that Sudden Leap allows a jump as a swift action. This means I could simple use Sudden Leap to close in with an enemy and then get the full attack. Granted, the average character might have trouble jumping that far, but if they're in the right stance, they get a +10 bonus to Jump anyway.

Why bother with Pounce and dramatic ways to get a full attack with movement when you can dip one level for it, as long as you keep a good Jump check?

Does a full-round action use up swift actions? I've always played thinking "full-round action = move action + standard action". In that case, you could use Sudden Leap and afterwards charge with Pounce.

[Firechanter]

The difference between a Swift Action Move + Full Attack and actual Pounce is that the latter is a Charge, and Charging is pretty much required for most kinds of insane damage boosters. Such as the well-known Shock Trooper and Leap Attack in combination with a Valorous weapon.

Swift Move and Full Attack isn't half shabby. But optimized Charge plays a couple of leagues higher.

[MeeposFire]

Does a full-round action use up swift actions? I've always played thinking "full-round action = move action + standard action". In that case, you could use Sudden Leap and afterwards charge with Pounce.

Indeed that is a very common combo and hence why sudden leap is rated so highly. Charging needs space and sudden leap gives that to you.

[Draz74]

You're reading it just fine. Sudden Leap is awesome, and it's one of the reasons Tome of Battle characters are a lot less reliant on dipping for Pounce than other melee characters are.

It's not considered an "uber" option recommended to every melee warrior because:

it requires you do know another Tiger Claw maneuver first, which can be tricky
it does require a significant investiture in your Jump check.

[Firechanter]

By the way, are there ways to get more than one Swift Action per round?

[The Glyphstone]

Be a Ruby Knight Windicator.

[Firechanter]

Indeed, hadn't seen that.
And again, no matter how much good stuff is given to melee classes, Casters still get it better. It's really quite getting on my nerves.

[Cog]

Synads can get an extra swift as well, though it has to be a mental action. There are a number of swift-mental activation items in MIC, so it's not too shabby.

[Bakkan]

When you make the Jump check for Sudden Leap, do you halve your result to get your distance traveled if you don't have a running start?

[Veyr]

I believe Sudden Leap explicitly states you may consider yourself to have a running start when you use it, regardless of whatever else is going on.

Sudden Leap is excellent, but also remember that at best you can use it once every other round, and if you're getting it with a feat, it's once per encounter, period.

[Ursus the Grim]

Does a full-round action use up swift actions? I've always played thinking "full-round action = move action + standard action". In that case, you could use Sudden Leap and afterwards charge with Pounce.

Current signs seem to point to no. General consensus is that swift actions are essentially one-shot free actions, and you get free actions with full-round actions.


The difference between a Swift Action Move + Full Attack and actual Pounce is that the latter is a Charge, and Charging is pretty much required for most kinds of insane damage boosters. Such as the well-known Shock Trooper and Leap Attack in combination with a Valorous weapon.

Swift Move and Full Attack isn't half shabby. But optimized Charge plays a couple of leagues higher.

Yep, I know. But this is a pretty green DM. I don't want to make her quit immediately, and she doesn't have enough levels for proficiency in throwing books. Mostly I'm looking for a Crit Monster, and right now I have a 50% chance of instagib per turn if we play by the "Critical confirmation on a critical hit roll" optional rule in the DMG.

Granted, you answered the question I posed, but I see pounce in the occasional non-ubercharger build too.


You're reading it just fine. Sudden Leap is awesome, and it's one of the reasons Tome of Battle characters are a lot less reliant on dipping for Pounce than other melee characters are.

It's not considered an "uber" option recommended to every melee warrior because:

it requires you do know another Tiger Claw maneuver first, which can be tricky
it does require a significant investiture in your Jump check.


I agree with the first problem, but most charge builds I see involve Leap Attack and its ilk anyway, meaning most of this frenzied berserkers (with ungodly Str, of course) have a decent Jump check.


I believe Sudden Leap explicitly states you may consider yourself to have a running start when you use it, regardless of whatever else is going on.

Sudden Leap is excellent, but also remember that at best you can use it once every other round, and if you're getting it with a feat, it's once per encounter, period.


Veyr, generally our combats go "you see enemies X distance away." Melee characters charge in, and everyone stays within 5 foot step distance to avoid AoOs. I'd really only need that one leap per encounter to close without losing damage potential.

Also, I don't see the exemption from the running start rule under sudden leap, but at 6th level, Leaping Dragon Stance comes in and gives exemption from that, plus the aforementioned +10 Jump bonus.

[Tael]

Uh, under-appreciated how? It's always been considered one of the best low level maneuvers.

[Frozen_Feet]

Just asking, is there a way to make jump count as a charge? If there is, would jump from Sudden Leap qualify?

[Cog]

Leap Attack (CAdv) lets you benefit from making a jump as part of a charge, but requires the charge conditions to be met separately. Roof-Jumper (Cityscape) lets a drop of at least 20' count as a charge, without making a requirement for what movement activates it, as long as it's deliberate. The potential problem is that it requires leaping "down".

[MeeposFire]

Battle jump would count but is kinda cheesy and weird in how it is described to work (by RAW I think it makes your sudden leap a swift action charge).

Sudden leap is not exempt from the jumping rules by default (though its not that hard to boost jump checks or get auto running leaps). Though you only need to get to 10 feet to make it good for charging.

That stance is really cool as it adds 10 feet not a +10 to the check (in addition to the bonuses to leap it already gives for running starts).

[Eloel]

Leap Attack (CAdv) lets you benefit from making a jump as part of a charge, but requires the charge conditions to be met separately. Roof-Jumper (Cityscape) lets a drop of at least 20' count as a charge, without making a requirement for what movement activates it, as long as it's deliberate. The potential problem is that it requires leaping "down".
If you leap up, you come down?

[Endarire]

Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) covers most of this.

And yes, you're reading it right. Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) and Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind7) are similar swift action moves.

[DeltaEmil]

Jumping can be part of a movement like charge, but Sudden Leap is only a jump, so unless you have the specific feats that Cog has mentioned, the jump provided by Sudden Leap does not.

Also, it's an extra "move" in that regard, and you can't let it count as a charge, because that jump is in addition, not as part of another action.

[MeeposFire]

Battle jump is weird as it does not specify an action taken (heck it does not even specify it has to be on your turn or that you are the one using the action that causes you to drop on to the target). It just says if you drop from 5 feet above your target (jumping is included in the feat so it is good) you automatically charge. Should it be "you take a full attack action to charge" or "standard action to charge"? Yes. But it is not so yes with this feat sudden leap becomes a swift action charge.

[Pechvarry]

Battle Jump (Unapproachable East)

[Cog]

Battle Jump's phrasing is unfortunately vague on when it applies. It does say, "You can execute a charge by..." rather than when, so I'd read that as still requiring an intentional drop.

[Veyr]

And how is jumping up in the air and landing on something not intentional? It's called Battle Leap after all, so it's not like Roof-Jumper that maybe implies that you have to start above your opponent (though from my recollection of the feat, there is nothing about Roof-Jumper that actually requires you to start above your opponent, regardless of what it may or may not imply — haven't read it in a while though).

[Cog]

And how is jumping up in the air and landing on something not intentional?
No disagreement there. I was referring to MeeposFire's suggestion that Battle Leap triggered even if you accidentally fell on somebody. :smallamused:

[MeeposFire]

No disagreement there. I was referring to MeeposFire's suggestion that Battle Leap triggered even if you accidentally fell on somebody. :smallamused:

Hey I was just referencing that the feat is so vague that it would be possible to think that. Such as a friend holding you in the air and then dropping you on his turn. it is all part of the plan (I wouldn't allow it but what I allow in my games isn't the issue here). Even without cheesing it in that way battle jump is really cheesy since at worst battle jump allows you to make a charge as a move action which means you can still make an attack action after your charge.

[faceroll]

Note that the stance that gives you a bonus on jump gives you a 10 FOOT bonus, not a +10 bonus to checks. So no matter what you roll, you're moving at least 10 feet that round.


Swift Move and Full Attack isn't half shabby. But optimized Charge plays a couple of leagues higher.

Only if you can kill everything. Otherwise return damage will likely end your, what with your negative AC.

With swift move, you can move in, use a standard action maneuver, then hop out. Or charge in and hop out. It's like spring attack++.

[Prime32]

Note also that Sudden Leap does not require you to be in contact with the ground when you use it.

[balistafreak]

Note also that Sudden Leap does not require you to be in contact with the ground when you use it.

Double jumping? :smallconfused:

[Cog]

Note also that Sudden Leap does not require you to be in contact with the ground when you use it.
Note that the jump skill does not require you to be in contact with the ground when you use it.

[Firechanter]

Why, because the rules don't specifically say so? oÔ

[Cog]

Why, because the rules don't specifically say so? oÔ
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Just because Sudden Leap doesn't specifically say you must be in contact with the ground doesn't mean you can do it midair. It's still a jump, not flight.

[DeltaEmil]

I did ask once if it were possible to make a 'double-jump' like in Super Mario Bros. with Sudden Leap, and the answer I got in the RAW-thread was no.

[MeeposFire]

Plus the game does not usually let you take actions within another action unless it is an interrupt, a free action, or needs to be used within an action.

[Cog]

That's a little more questionable. A swift action has the same restrictions as a free actions, and

You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.
The "reasonable limits" might mean no swifts, but keep in mind you can interrupt a full-round action such as a full attack with swift or free actions (5' step, magic item activations). Dividing a move into its steps isn't going much further.

[MeeposFire]

But they do normally point out the exceptions. As far as I know they do not have an exception for this.