The Monkening

[Tyndmyr]

Aright...so, as the local op-fu guru, I was tasked with finding interesting toys for a player that wants to play a monk.

Starting level: 7. He's set on human. Allowed material is core + completes + the occasional other toy if you talk real nice to the GM. VoP has been preapproved, and the player is considering it heavily.

So, I need to make this not suck. Drunken master with heavy creativity has been considered and so on...but that's a lot of levels to invest. Any reduction on that would probably be good. He should have lots of feats to spare, and things what boost damage to respectable levels is probably first on the list.

Downside is, I don't play monk ever. So, outside of more generic tricks like a spellcaster dip and Human Paragon to boost the feats/strength available, I'm not that up on monks.

Assume that there is a party arcanist(Ultimate Magus) to provide buffs from the above sources if appropriate level pearls are purchased for him(obviously, the non-VoP path).

Ideas?

[Curious]

Play a pathfinder monk, since they have ki. Take both the Hungry Ghost monk archetype, and the Drunken master archetype; make sure you take the ability from both that allows you to regain ki from killing opponents and drinking ale, respectively. Grab the feat that allows you to drink ale as a swift action. Carry lots of ale. Get the archetype ability from the monk of the four winds that gives him three extra standard actions at the cost of six ki. Kill things. Enjoy.

[The Glyphstone]

And whatever you do, don't let him take VoP. Ask Admiral Ackbar why.:smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

And whatever you do, don't let him take VoP. Ask Admiral Ackbar why.:smallwink:

Oh, that's my inclination as well. I must admit that a very small part of me wants to make it work, mostly based on the somewhat better interpretation of "he just doesn't get a cut of loot" we're using instead of the whole Lawyers and Accountants way it was written.

It is just hard to do that well, though. So many problems, including the lack of flight unless he ends up sponging off the casters.

Curious, I'm afraid PF is out for this campaign, as it's just 3.5 sources.

[Hirax]

And whatever you do, don't let him take VoP. Ask Admiral Ackbar why.:smallwink:

Agree 100%.

[Curious]

Sorry then, I can't really offer much help. Most of my expertise is in Pathfinder. Er, play an unnarmed swordsage? :smalltongue:

[Tyndmyr]

Unarmed swordsage is certainly a lot better, but the source restrictions limiting me there. I can likely convince the group to allow the odd feat or spell from outside the usual accepted list, provided it isn't WAY out there(BoEF suggestions are traditionally answered with fire), but a class is generally out.

On the bright side, the player is experienced and clever, so he can be expected to use whatever he ends up with well.

Enlarge is easily available as one of the wizards(me) already has it known. Ditto Magic Weapon, the heart of x buffs and the +4 Str, Dex, Con buffs. So, if he doesn't take VoP, buff availability is high.

[MeeposFire]

If your friend is heart set on monk I would pick up the snap kick feat from TOB and find as many size increases you can get relative to the power of the campaign. Also if they want to find a way to get good use of flurry you need to pick up stuff that allows swift action moves like travel devotion (complete champ) or sudden leap (TOB).

If he is willing to multiclass suggest psionics and the tashalatora feat from secrets of sarlona. It allows a psionic class to stack with monk levels for many monk abilities which means you can be a monk/psychic warrior or psion (with slayer or similar of course).

Unarmed swordsage is great if your player is willing to play a class with the same fluff but without the official name.

[Curmudgeon]

A Monk is hard to make work, in general. Without full access to some options out there you might as well just forget about it.

Training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137) is important, as this lets the Monk make a 10' adjustment whenever they would be allowed a 5' step. This means the Monk can make full attacks (required for flurry of blows) and then step back 10', reducing the chances of full counterattacks. It's an expensive item, so getting the whole party to help out is important. Here's how:

A Bard or other character with good Diplomacy skill can Haggle (rules in Complete Adventurer) to get the sell price down to 9/10th of normal.
Train with the item for 4 weeks.
Sell it back. Haggle should let you get 10/9th of the usual ½ list price.
The total outlay is just 34.44% of full price, so this should be available to the Monk with a party's level 7 wealth available (for just that 1 month).
The Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) trades evasion for the ability to become invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds. At level 9 it trades improved evasion for Blink. (The Monk is strongly encouraged to acquire a Ring of Evasion to make up for the lost ability.)

Kung Fu Genius is a feat in Dragon Compendium; it lets the Monk use INT instead of WIS for Wisdom-based class abilities. There are normally only 2 of those (AC Bonus and Quivering Palm), but Invisible Fist adds another one at level 9. This helps the Monk reduce their dependency on so many different attributes.

The Snap Kick feat (Tome of Battle, page 32) gives the character an extra unarmed attack whenever they make at least one melee attack. This is superior to flurry of blows or Two-Weapon Fighting because it's useful with standard action attacks and attacks of opportunity as well as full attacks.

A Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) can enhance the Monk's unarmed strike just like any magic weapon (and at the same cost).

[MeeposFire]

If you can buying a heavy arms graft and a battlefist can be very helpful. Cheap enhancements and a size boost to damage. They are in Eberron products so they may be too far outside your stuff.

[Veyr]

Unarmed swordsage is certainly a lot better, but the source restrictions limiting me there. I can likely convince the group to allow the odd feat or spell from outside the usual accepted list, provided it isn't WAY out there(BoEF suggestions are traditionally answered with fire), but a class is generally out.
An odd feat, you say? Could you get Monastic Training (Eberron Campaign Setting) and Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona) in? Those would solve all of your problems quite handily, and despite the sources, neither is setting-specific in terms of their function or fluff.

Be a Monk 2/Ardent 18, or a Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 if Complete Psionics isn't in play. Both work quite nicely.

[Lateral]

Completes included, eh? I might just go with some form of Sacred Fist. Monk 1/ Cleric 5 is an easy entry, as long as that Monk level comes early enough that you can still get 8 ranks in Knowledge: Religion. You could get it earlier with some full BAB classes, but you'd lose a lot more caster levels, which is bad. For a simple full build, I'd probably go with Monk 1/Cleric 5/ Divine Fist 10/ Cleric 4. You lose three caster levels in all, and get the unarmed strike progression of an 11th level monk and a few other goodies.

Other than that, as above stated. With Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monk's Belt, you have the unarmed strike of a Monk 20; see if you can get SUS and Snap Kick too, since Snap Kick is amazing.

...Ardent with Tashalatora is a great option too, if you can get the two feats necessary. If psionics are allowed (the XPH wasn't listed specifically, but some people use 'core' and 'SRD' synonymously), go with that, since you can get 9th level powers and full unarmed strikes without items. If not, Divine Fist can be done with only the ones you have listed, although SUS and Snap Kick are very nice.

[Tvtyrant]

First, are you allowed variants?

Either way, my suggestion would be: Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric 4

The class has the pre-reqs of Stunning Fist, IUS, Combat Casting and Combat Reflexes. Take stunning fist at first level, Combat Reflexes as second and Combat Casting at third. That takes care of your feat reqs in the first 3 levels and leaves you 2 feats to get Superior Unarmed Strike and Extend Spell/whatever floats your boat.

Ability scores: Wis>Con>Dex>Str>moot as long as you have a high enough dex for Combat Reflexes.

The essential goal of this build is selfbuffing, so the Strength and Travel domains are going to be the best bet (Strength gets you Enlarge Person and Travel gets you Flight).The spell you really want is Divine Power, as it increases your BaB by your character level, so you have full BaB and HP when fighting. You could even dump the last 4 levels of Cleric for Monk if needed, though it makes it weaker.

[9mm]

Teshlahora (spelling may not be accurate), use it, love it.

[Doc Roc]

Oh, that's my inclination as well. I must admit that a very small part of me wants to make it work, mostly based on the somewhat better interpretation of "he just doesn't get a cut of loot" we're using instead of the whole Lawyers and Accountants way it was written.


Do you mean Barristers & Booty? It's pretty fun. I'm a fan of the Corporate Raider class, but a lot of people swear by the Torte Lord.

You're going to need Tashalatoran, it's basically that simple. Unless you want... hum. You could play King Keg, the Anthropoid Squid Drunken Master.

[Lateral]

First, are you allowed variants?

Either way, my suggestion would be: Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric 4

The class has the pre-reqs of Stunning Fist, IUS, Combat Casting and Combat Reflexes. Take stunning fist at first level, Combat Reflexes as second and Combat Casting at third. That takes care of your feat reqs in the first 3 levels and leaves you 2 feats to get Superior Unarmed Strike and Extend Spell/whatever floats your boat.

I'd really go with Monk 1/Cleric 5 as an entry, since you're already losing two CL from Sacred Fist, and that second Monk level gets you just one level of unarmed strike, one prereq feat (which you can get normally pretty easily by level 6), and evasion. There isn't any BAB difference or earlier entry, that one level of UAS will make very little difference, and a Ring of Evasion costs 25,000 gp.

Three lost caster levels and four lost caster levels, however, is the difference between 9th level spells and no 9th level spells on a cleric. Just saying. :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

Fair enough, was thinking much more about the Divine Power spell then anything else. Also, persisting Divine Power would make the character effective all day long, and using a quarterstaff instead of fists allows for using Greater Magic Weapon.

[Flickerdart]

The first thing to do with a Monk is get your size as high as possible. Also combine with Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) and Monk's Belt (DMG) to deal unarmed damage as a Monk nine levels higher (not sure if they stack though). The belt is 13k, so there's no excuse not to own one by 8th or 9th level.
Size increases are harder to come by. Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) feat (DMG) gives you a boost, so does Enlarge Person cast by the Ultimate Magus or Expansion if going the Tashalatora route. The Wu Jen spell Giant Size is incredible if you can manage it (which takes a bit of finagling). With Expansion, INA, SUS and the belt, at 7th level the Monk does 4d8 damage per punch before any other bonuses.
If Tashalatora is not on the table, the Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) PrC is very easy to enter and gives some powers, as well as progressing Monk abilities.

Monk 1: Wild Talent
Monk 2:
Monk 3: Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)
Monk 4:
Monk 5:
Monk 6: Superior Unarmed Strike
Psionic Fist 1: Expansion as power known

Take Snap Kick at 9th and buy the Monk's Belt as soon as possible.

[Lateral]

Well, yeah. Divine Power is really awesome. Persisting it would take either DMM: Persist or 10th level spell slots, but it is a great way to stay relevant. Although, since Sacred Fist is a full-BAB PrC, you already have a BAB of +17 so it's not as huge as it could be.

[the_archduke]

How about Monk 8/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10?

Human for the bonus feat and skill points

The skill points are tricky, you need Knowledge Planes, Spell craft and bluff as cross class, 19 total ranks plus 13 ranks of class skills = 51 skill points by level eight. maybe tricky

how about

Human paragon 1/Monk 4/Ur Priest 2/Sacred Fist10/something else 3

[Tvtyrant]

How about Monk 8/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10?

I don't actually think that gets you a 9, because you lose 3 levels of casting from Sacred Fist. So you would lose 1 casting level from it, and Ur-Priest doesn't get a 9th level spell until level 10, or in this case you would have 2 levels of Ur-Priest + 7 caster levels = 9 caster levels total.

[Lateral]

That'd get you full Ur-Priest casting, but you don't get any casting early game and aren't really very good until higher levels. Plus, full Ur-Priest casting is only about on par with 17th-level Cleric casting.

...Also, Monk can't qualify for Ur-Priest at level 8.

Ur-Priest could get you somewhere, though, if you wanted to get convoluted. I don't really see the need, though, since Monk 1/Cleric 5/ Divine Fist 10/ Cleric 4 is easier and about as good. Same casting at the end, faster entry into Divine Fist, the same UAS progression (assuming Monk's Belt and SUS; they get him to Monk 20 progression anyway, you can't go above that.)

@^: You lose 2 caster levels from Sacred Fist, but monk levels (hard to qualify without them) cost one extra. Plain old Cleric 6 could qualify if he were Human, so that could work too. Or one flaw.

Actually, that's better than Monk 1/Cleric 5, if flaws are allowed. If not, then only do it if you're human; otherwise, it'll work best with the monk level.

[the_archduke]

Monk 1/Human Paragon 1/Monk +3/Ur Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10/Fist of the Forest 3

that's a very "monk"y build. I think it all works too

[MeeposFire]

The first thing to do with a Monk is get your size as high as possible. Also combine with Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) and Monk's Belt (DMG) to deal unarmed damage as a Monk nine levels higher (not sure if they stack though). The belt is 13k, so there's no excuse not to own one by 8th or 9th level.
Size increases are harder to come by. Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) feat (DMG) gives you a boost, so does Enlarge Person cast by the Ultimate Magus or Expansion if going the Tashalatora route. The Wu Jen spell Giant Size is incredible if you can manage it (which takes a bit of finagling). With Expansion, INA, SUS and the belt, at 7th level the Monk does 4d8 damage per punch before any other bonuses.
If Tashalatora is not on the table, the Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) PrC is very easy to enter and gives some powers, as well as progressing Monk abilities.

Monk 1: Wild Talent
Monk 2:
Monk 3: Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)
Monk 4:
Monk 5:
Monk 6: Superior Unarmed Strike
Psionic Fist 1: Expansion as power known

Take Snap Kick at 9th and buy the Monk's Belt as soon as possible.

Officially they don't stack though most people decide to say they do anyway since the reason is based on a technicality that neither one of those monk boosters are called a bonus so they overlap and don't stack.

Other size boosters include the battle fist and a soulmeld bound to the shoulders (it is the tarrasque based one can't remember the name).

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you can talk your DM into it, use this monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122).

[Curmudgeon]

The first thing to do with a Monk is get your size as high as possible. Getting big is a really bad idea. You'll be subject to the squeezing penalties (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) whenever you're in a place with a ceiling lower than your height. Larger creatures also have a size penalty both to attack and to AC. With medium BAB and no armor, that hurts the Monk two ways.

What you want is no actual size increase, but lots of effective size increase instead. The Greater Mighty Wallop spell (Races of the Dragon) and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat give you what you need.

Also combine with Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) and Monk's Belt (DMG) to deal unarmed damage as a Monk nine levels higher (not sure if they stack though).
They don't stack. Each one of these is relative to your actual Monk level, so they overlap.

[Flickerdart]

Getting big is a really bad idea. You'll be subject to the squeezing penalties (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) whenever you're in a place with a ceiling lower than your height. Larger creatures also have a size penalty both to attack and to AC. With medium BAB and no armor, that hurts the Monk two ways.

What you want is no actual size increase, but lots of effective size increase instead. The Greater Mighty Wallop spell (Races of the Dragon) and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat give you what you need.
Virtual size increases don't give you reach, and reach helps mitigate the move+attack problem a little. There's really no reason not to have stuff like Expansion available for when you need it, because you can just avoid using it when it would be detrimental.

[Pechvarry]

Ninja 1/Monk 6. Stunning Fist is a must.

Magic Item Compendium: Rags of Restraint. As a swift action, heal 7 HP. uses ki pool or stunning use, so with a wisdom of 18+4, you'd have 12 uses/day. As long as you keep gaining Ninja or Monk levels, the amount of HP healed will keep going up (as will your uses/day). That's quite a lot of healing.

From here, Decisive Strike + Karmic Strike could be swell. A tank-esque monk is definitely different; with high mobility to be wherever he's needed. I suggest Karmic Strike over Robilar's Gambit because of the BAB requirements. It also sets you up for the other feat in Complete Warrior that trips people who miss you. -4 AC, Improved trip them if they miss and smack them if they hit, double damage, and heal while taking your full round action.

I'd consider using Item Familiar (just scrap the XP portion and allow people to select another feat in its place 30 days after losing the item and suddenly it's not so horrid, balance-wise) with the Rags of Restraint just because an item shouldn't be that integral to a build without some RP justification.

[Doc Roc]

Ninja 1/Monk 6. Stunning Fist is a must.

Magic Item Compendium: Rags of Restraint. As a swift action, heal 7 HP. uses ki pool or stunning use, so with a wisdom of 18+4, you'd have 12 uses/day. As long as you keep gaining Ninja or Monk levels, the amount of HP healed will keep going up (as will your uses/day). That's quite a lot of healing.

From here, Decisive Strike + Karmic Strike could be swell. A tank-esque monk is definitely different; with high mobility to be wherever he's needed. I suggest Karmic Strike over Robilar's Gambit because of the BAB requirements. It also sets you up for the other feat in Complete Warrior that trips people who miss you. -4 AC, Improved trip them if they miss and smack them if they hit, double damage, and heal while taking your full round action.

I'd consider using Item Familiar (just scrap the XP portion and allow people to select another feat in its place 30 days after losing the item and suddenly it's not so horrid, balance-wise) with the Rags of Restraint just because an item shouldn't be that integral to a build without some RP justification.

This is... What the heck does 84 points of healing do for you?

[Tvtyrant]

Alternatively you could use the Monk/Drunken Master/Thrall of Jubilex build that has you transforming yourself into improvised weapons to increase your attack damage via drunken master.

[WinWin]

Binder 7. Start off making pacts with Ronove. When the player gets sick of punching things, he'll have other toys at his disposal.

[Curmudgeon]

Virtual size increases don't give you reach, and reach helps mitigate the move+attack problem a little. There's really no reason not to have stuff like Expansion available for when you need it, because you can just avoid using it when it would be detrimental.
You can get reach through other means, that won't hurt you in places with ordinary ceilings. Feats, for instance:

Aberration Blood feat (Lords of Madness, page 178) can grant flexible limbs to a Humanoid.
Extended Reach feat (Savage Species, page 34) works if you have flexible body parts, granting +5' to reach.
Inhuman Reach feat (Lords of Madness, page 180) can extend reach by a further +5'.
Magic items, too:

Greatreach Bracers (Magic Item Compendium, pages 108-109): +10'
Shadowstrike property, applied to a Necklace of Natural Attacks (Magic Item Compendium, page 43): +5'
Dweomered Dragon Scales Dark Clasp (Dragon Magic, page 100): +5'

[Doc Roc]

You can get reach through other means, that won't hurt you in places with ordinary ceilings. Feats, for instance:

Aberration Blood feat (Lords of Madness, page 178) can grant flexible limbs to a Humanoid.
Extended Reach feat (Savage Species, page 34) works if you have flexible body parts, granting +5' to reach.
Inhuman Reach feat (Lords of Madness, page 180) can extend reach by a further +5'.
Magic items, too:

Greatreach Bracers (Magic Item Compendium, pages 108-109): +10'
Shadowstrike property, applied to a Necklace of Natural Attacks (Magic Item Compendium, page 43): +5'
Dweomered Dragon Scales Dark Clasp (Dragon Magic, page 100): +5'


Hum! That's a pretty nice collection, Crum, think you could ask Ernir to add it to his Items List?

[Aspenor]

Aright...so, as the local op-fu guru, I was tasked with finding interesting toys for a player that wants to play a monk.

Starting level: 7. He's set on human. Allowed material is core + completes + the occasional other toy if you talk real nice to the GM. VoP has been preapproved, and the player is considering it heavily.

So, I need to make this not suck. Drunken master with heavy creativity has been considered and so on...but that's a lot of levels to invest. Any reduction on that would probably be good. He should have lots of feats to spare, and things what boost damage to respectable levels is probably first on the list.

Downside is, I don't play monk ever. So, outside of more generic tricks like a spellcaster dip and Human Paragon to boost the feats/strength available, I'm not that up on monks.

Assume that there is a party arcanist(Ultimate Magus) to provide buffs from the above sources if appropriate level pearls are purchased for him(obviously, the non-VoP path).

Ideas?

Play an unarmed swordsage instead.

Or Monk 2/Psychic Warrior.

[Urpriest]

While Psychic Warrior might be disallowed for your interpretation of Core, Ardent is from a Complete, so it's included RAW. Like all RAW abuse, be prepared for flying books.

Sacred Fist ain't bad, though it does have the nasty side effect of forbidding you from wielding any weapons. Still, cleric spells.

As for Ur-Priest, I tend to like a Sacriligeous Fist with a Duskblade 3/Monk 2/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10/Enlightened Fist 3 setup, but that involves PHBII for Duskblade and Apprentice:Criminal. Replacing the Duskblade with Warlock (and maybe a level or two of Human Paragon) would be workable, if a little more feat-intensive.

[Flickerdart]

You can get reach through other means, that won't hurt you in places with ordinary ceilings. Feats, for instance:

Aberration Blood feat (Lords of Madness, page 178) can grant flexible limbs to a Humanoid.
Extended Reach feat (Savage Species, page 34) works if you have flexible body parts, granting +5' to reach.
Inhuman Reach feat (Lords of Madness, page 180) can extend reach by a further +5'.
Magic items, too:

Greatreach Bracers (Magic Item Compendium, pages 108-109): +10'
Shadowstrike property, applied to a Necklace of Natural Attacks (Magic Item Compendium, page 43): +5'
Dweomered Dragon Scales Dark Clasp (Dragon Magic, page 100): +5'

Yes but there's no reason you can't stack all those with Expansion when needed. It's not like you're constantly stalked by a pack of wild ceilings that swoop down as soon as they see you manifesting.

[Tvtyrant]

Honestly if he wants to go straight Monk then just look for feats that will aid it; Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, etc.

You could have him take Pious Soul which allows you to add 1d6 damage per faith point, which he would get every session for being a monk (see demonstrate faith). Not perfect, but a source of d6s in an emergency.

[Lateral]

While Psychic Warrior might be disallowed for your interpretation of Core, Ardent is from a Complete, so it's included RAW. Like all RAW abuse, be prepared for flying books.

Sacred Fist ain't bad, though it does have the nasty side effect of forbidding you from wielding any weapons. Still, cleric spells.

As for Ur-Priest, I tend to like a Sacriligeous Fist with a Duskblade 3/Monk 2/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10/Enlightened Fist 3 setup, but that involves PHBII for Duskblade and Apprentice:Criminal. Replacing the Duskblade with Warlock (and maybe a level or two of Human Paragon) would be workable, if a little more feat-intensive.

...What are the Enlightened Fist levels for, if you're a Warlock?

Come to think of it, what's the point if you're a Duskblade? The spells you'll get with those levels will matter very little at that point.

[Urpriest]

...What are the Enlightened Fist levels for, if you're a Warlock?

Come to think of it, what's the point if you're a Duskblade? The spells you'll get with those levels will matter very little at that point.

Each point of arcane caster level gives 1/2 a CL to Ur-Priest. That said, you could also go for something like Hierophant, or even more Ur-Priest, but this gives Monky class features, plus a decent full attack channel that works with your Ur-Priest spells as well.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes but there's no reason you can't stack all those with Expansion when needed.
Your position is that you need a psionic class + Tashalatora to make an effective Monk. That's not the only way to make the class work better.

[9mm]

Your position is that you need a psionic class + Tashalatora to make an effective Monk. That's not the only way to make the class work better.

No, it just happens to be the easiest and most effective. He can then stop worrying about "am I useful" and then start thinking about "what cool stuff do I want to do" with a single feat. Or he can burn all his resources into "I am kredit to team?"

[Lateral]

Each point of arcane caster level gives 1/2 a CL to Ur-Priest. That said, you could also go for something like Hierophant, or even more Ur-Priest, but this gives Monky class features, plus a decent full attack channel that works with your Ur-Priest spells as well.

...Oh. I guess it doesn't say divine casting class, does it.

But, while Warlock could qualify for Enlightened Fist with Eldritch Blast, it has SLAs and not spells. Why would it advance Ur-Priest casting?

[Frozen_Feet]

...Oh. I guess it doesn't say divine casting class, does it.

But, while Warlock could qualify for Enlightened Fist with Eldritch Blast, it has SLAs and not spells. Why would it advance Ur-Priest casting?

Because Warlocks still have Arcane caster level for purposes of feats and other things.

[faceroll]

In Sword & Fist, there are two very cheap items- Ki Straps, which give +5 to the DC of stunning fist attempts (5,000gp), and Sandals of Tiger Leap, which double damage of unarmed strikes on a charge (3,500gp).

You know how jump distances scale awesomely with speed? Well, combined with a way to get pounce, the Drunken Master's Staggering Charge, and a solid jump check, you can pretty much "fly" around, delivering full attacks with double damage (Sandals of Tiger Leap). If you combined this with any of the skill tricks that let you move on walls, you can now anime doublejump your way up any crevasse or cliff or what have you. We had a monk in a game that hover-jumped all over the place, while totally ****faced, bicycle kicking the snot out of everything. Very cool.

Oriental Adventures has a class called the Blade Dancer. A one level dip increases your base speed to 80, gives you a +10 competence bonus to balance jump, and tumble checks, and you can always take a ten on those checks. Crappy pre-reqs, though. There's probably an easier way to get your speed/jump checks up.

Check out variant monks in Unearthed Arcana. There's one that gets you Combat Expertise & Improved Trip without having to meet pre-reqs. Handy if you want to trip things.

[Flickerdart]

Your position is that you need a psionic class + Tashalatora to make an effective Monk. That's not the only way to make the class work better.
Except it isn't, at all. By applying the mystical and arcane art of reading, you will see that the build I proposed uses Psionic Fist, a Monk PrC for Monks, to progress its Monk abilities. It's a Monkier suggestion than most of your decidedly un-Monky feats and items. Monk Monk Monk.

[Telonius]

Another option...

Monk2/Fighter2/Druid1/Cleric1/Sacred Fist(Cleric)10/Warshaper4

Not quite as spellcaster-y as some of the other options, but Warshaper can get you reach with your natural weapons, treat your natural attacks as one size larger (written so that it stacks with pretty much everything) as well as improved Strength and Constitution.

If Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk are available, Monk/Wizard/EnlightenedFist/Warshaper will get you similar results on the arcane side of things, plus better synergy between Intelligence and your Monk abilities. (Albeit at a lower BAB, since it's only 3/4 BAB unlike Sacred Fist's full BAB).

There's also the Kensai route: Monk/Kensai. You end up doing more damage on your unarmed attack than if you'd taken all Monk levels.

[Curmudgeon]

It's a Monkier suggestion than most of your decidedly un-Monky feats and items. Monk Monk Monk.
Gibberish doesn't make a adding a prestige class "Monkier" than taking all Monk levels, which I've tried to make practical with some useful suggestions.

[Doc Roc]

Gibberish doesn't make a adding a prestige class "Monkier" than taking all Monk levels, which I've tried to make practical with some useful suggestions.

The consensus is that you have failed, I think.

[Rei_Jin]

If this guy wants to play a human monk, and the DM sees no issue with him using a VoP, then it sounds like an unoptimised group. The first question is, does the player want to play an actual core class pure monk, or does he simply want the RP flavour and feel of the monk?

Once that's been answered, then the question is, do you want feats, skills, magic items, class levels, etc... and does this guy want to be punching things, or using monk weapons?

There's too many variables for me to give a short answer to such an open question.

IF I was to play a Human Monk...
I would pick up these feats
1 (Human Bonus Feat) Law Devotion
1 (Monk Bonus Feat) Stunning Fist
1 Travel Devotion
2 (Monk Bonus Feat) Combat Reflexes
3 Either Weapon Finesse, Intuitive Strike, or Superior Unarmed Strike
6 (Monk Bonus Feat) Improved Trip
6 Improved Natural Attack


Law Devotion gives you a bonus to either attack or AC that scales with level, and lasts for 1 minute, once per day. If you picked up a level in cleric (advisable) then you could burn Turn Undead uses for more uses of that.

Travel Devotion allows you an extra move action every round, for a minute, once per day. Same deal as Law Devotion, burn more Turn Undead uses for more uses of it. Now you have a monk who can move, flurry, AND hit his foe!


If he has the wealth to afford a Monk Belt (DMG) and a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) then he doesn't need Improved Natural Attack OR Superior Unarmed Strike, giving you a little more leeway for feats. Look at picking up Blind Fight or Improved Toughness to help with his lowish HP.

[holywhippet]

Sacred Fist ain't bad, though it does have the nasty side effect of forbidding you from wielding any weapons. Still, cleric spells.


Technically it's divine spells. Any divine casting class could be used to qualify so you could go sacred fist via druid if you wanted to. I think cleric might be the better choice thanks to spells like righteous might though. Archivist based sacred fist might be interesting though.

[Coidzor]

Does it actually have to contain monk?

[Tyndmyr]

A Monk is hard to make work, in general. Without full access to some options out there you might as well just forget about it.

Training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137) is important, as this lets the Monk make a 10' adjustment whenever they would be allowed a 5' step. This means the Monk can make full attacks (required for flurry of blows) and then step back 10', reducing the chances of full counterattacks. It's an expensive item, so getting the whole party to help out is important. Here's how:

A Bard or other character with good Diplomacy skill can Haggle (rules in Complete Adventurer) to get the sell price down to 9/10th of normal.
Train with the item for 4 weeks.
Sell it back. Haggle should let you get 10/9th of the usual ½ list price.
The total outlay is just 34.44% of full price, so this should be available to the Monk with a party's level 7 wealth available (for just that 1 month).
The Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) trades evasion for the ability to become invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds. At level 9 it trades improved evasion for Blink. (The Monk is strongly encouraged to acquire a Ring of Evasion to make up for the lost ability.)

Kung Fu Genius is a feat in Dragon Compendium; it lets the Monk use INT instead of WIS for Wisdom-based class abilities. There are normally only 2 of those (AC Bonus and Quivering Palm), but Invisible Fist adds another one at level 9. This helps the Monk reduce their dependency on so many different attributes.

While this is excellent, and my cohort is in fact a bard who can not only do this, he also has craft wondrous item to make toys inexpensively for us...the WBL of the entire party is not available. Nobody is gonna sell off their toys midway through the adventure to loan the monk we just met all our gold.

We'll probably build him one when he has the cash to spare, though.


The Snap Kick feat (Tome of Battle, page 32) gives the character an extra unarmed attack whenever they make at least one melee attack. This is superior to flurry of blows or Two-Weapon Fighting because it's useful with standard action attacks and attacks of opportunity as well as full attacks.

A Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) can enhance the Monk's unarmed strike just like any magic weapon (and at the same cost).

Both good, but I don't know how many non-standard source items I can get through for him. I'll guess that I could easily justify the necklace, and other people are already using dastanas from A&E, so that should be workable...but ToB is probably a no, simply because it would lead to all the other melee types wanting to rework chars with ToB stuff as well, and it'd be a headache.

Dragon Comp and Eberron are less well accepted, the first inheriting some stigma from Dragon Mag, and having some of it's own from Dvati, Eberron because it's setting specific stuff for a setting we're not in. Well, the battlefist and graft sound pretty Eberronish. I can probably justify the less specific things from there that Veyr mentioned.

TVtyrant, variants and ACFs are allowed provided they come from the approved sources. This does put a slight crimp on things, as most ACFs/variants are not from there. Someone brought up phb2 ACFs earlier in the campaign, and that was explicitly disallowed.

Monk's Belt can be assumed once he can afford it. Hopefully my shiny new minion will help so far as tricking him out with toys goes.

Ur priest is a solid addition to any build. That said, he's already picked LN for alignment. I hadn't considered it as important, but it does limit options for PrCs in the future.

Pech, not too worried about out of combat healing. One of the other characters has a cleric cohort for handling such things, and we've already got a wand of CLW. With a 7 hp/use amount, I'm afraid the ninja method isn't going to be very practical for use in combat anyhow, even as a swift action.

It's not a bad idea for say, a soloing build in a dungeon or something, but I don't think he'll really be expected to fill a healing niche. So long as he rocks out with melee damage, can get where he needs to be, and perhaps has a way to disable foes(grapple, disarm, etc), I think he'll do fine.


Play an unarmed swordsage instead.

Or Monk 2/Psychic Warrior.

That'd be the easy way, sure. Unfortunately, not going to be practical, since the guy wants to play monk, not just a guy that punches things.

Ardent is something I'll need to investigate, though.



Honestly if he wants to go straight Monk then just look for feats that will aid it; Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, etc.

You could have him take Pious Soul which allows you to add 1d6 damage per faith point, which he would get every session for being a monk (see demonstrate faith). Not perfect, but a source of d6s in an emergency.

All solid, I'll add them to the list for him.

Faceroll, the tiger idea sounds pretty epic. I like it.


If this guy wants to play a human monk, and the DM sees no issue with him using a VoP, then it sounds like an unoptimised group. The first question is, does the player want to play an actual core class pure monk, or does he simply want the RP flavour and feel of the monk?

I would describe this campaign as moderately optimized. Two of us have leadership, and the other player is optimizing for it. The main cleric uses DMM...but not with persist. The Ultimate Magus has wings of shadow and enjoys metamagic use...but we also have a few melee types. On the other hand, we've already had two of the lower tier players die(straight barb and a rogue/wizard), though...so I want to ensure he has enough oomph that he's not going to keel over the instant we reach combat.

He's after the core class monk. If he just wanted to punch things, this wouldn't have even been a thread. He was curious if there was a way to get the drunken master improvised weapons ability without actually putting levels into drunken master...I'll admit that does sound attractive, but I don't know that a mere proficiency would work that way.

[Rei_Jin]

If you're going to go with Drunken Master (and no, outside of Homebrew, there's no way to get their abilities) then you'd be best advised to take 6 levels in Monk and pick up the pre-reqs, along with the "Throw Anything" feat. Once you have the improvised weapon ability, you'll be able to throw anything at your foe and have it deal your unarmed damage.

I had a player do that in a game I ran once, he was nigh impossible to kill with his tankard of doom

[Tyndmyr]

If you're going to go with Drunken Master (and no, outside of Homebrew, there's no way to get their abilities) then you'd be best advised to take 6 levels in Monk and pick up the pre-reqs, along with the "Throw Anything" feat. Once you have the improvised weapon ability, you'll be able to throw anything at your foe and have it deal your unarmed damage.

I had a player do that in a game I ran once, he was nigh impossible to kill with his tankard of doom

Yeah, I mentioned that combo to him...but it, again, likely won't work with VoP, simply because he won't be able to carry sufficient mundane ammo.

I'll probably just try to talk him out of VoP altogether. That + monk = too many headaches.

It could be worse. The original requested race for this concept was kender.

[Rei_Jin]

Wow, this sounds like a player with a deathwish.

Kender + Monk + VoP = doomed.

If the enemies don't kill you, your own party will.

The only way I could see a Monk with VoP working, is with about 6 levels in Warlock for Fell Flight (and other goodies), or the Dragonborn template with the wings option.

[Kylarra]

Could have him also take leadership and get himself a dedicated buffbot. Normally not a feasible option for various reasons, but since everyone else is sporting a utility cohort...

[Cespenar]

Since the player wants to use VoP, does it mean that Touch of Golden Ice is also an option?

[Geigan]

If you're using BoED make sure to have him get intuitive strike. Wis to attack rolls makes picking stats to put points into easier to determine. Being an exalted feat however he would have to be good aligned somehow. But if he was going to go VoP he would have to anyway. As for punching things I would recommend a spell from Races of the Dragon if it's not too far off your book list. The mighty wallop spells allow you to treat Melee attacks as size categories larger. Great for the monk with the advanced damage on unarmed. Make him a custom ring of it and he'll never be sad about the amount of dice he'll be rolling on damage. A bit expensive at this level but definitely worth saving for later on if possible.

[Prime32]

If not a monk fix, what about houserules for unarmed strikes?
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11597)

[Urpriest]

He's after the core class monk. If he just wanted to punch things, this wouldn't have even been a thread. He was curious if there was a way to get the drunken master improvised weapons ability without actually putting levels into drunken master...I'll admit that does sound attractive, but I don't know that a mere proficiency would work that way.

The Drunken Master's ability isn't particularly good anyway. Don't forget that you still take a -4 nonproficiency penalty to hit with improvised weapons even with Drunken Master.

[Tyndmyr]

Wow, this sounds like a player with a deathwish.

Kender + Monk + VoP = doomed.

If the enemies don't kill you, your own party will.


Yeah, he's played a Kender before, it invariably ended messily. We told him that a new kender would be met with killing, then looting and cheering.

Sacred Fist looks to be quite promising, since we lost our healer yesterday.

[Cog]

Drunken Master doesn't progress unarmed damage, it just adds bonus damage on top. Usually that's a few points higher, but you lose out on criticals and size increases.

Slightly off topic, but if you want a Drunken Master, you probably want Superior Unarmed Strike without monk progression. That way you keep your progression going through your DM levels; Disciple of the Eye can get you flurry to qualify. There's a few ways of reducing improvised weapon penalties to -2 (City Brawler Barbarian ACF or Improvised Weapon Proficiency feat from Dragon Mag, or Hulking Hurler from CWar; thanks to Curmudgeon for that list), though none of those stack; becoming a Bloodbound of the Red Ring (membership, City of Stormreach) gives a stacking reduction for the price of getting to fight in an arena (i.e., you're getting more experience out of the deal).

[SurlySeraph]

It could be worse. The original requested race for this concept was kender.

Hang on. Does he still want to be a halfling? Because it sounds like we're making a ninja now.
Monk 2, with Invisible Fist, my favorite ACF ever. Consider going to Monk 7 and taking the Dark Moon Monk sub levels, which are in the Champions of Valor web supplement and trade Wholeness of Body for Shadow Blend, which is pretty much HiPS, for the off-rounds. Or a level in Ninja, that's another way to handle the off-rounds.
Acquire Sneak Attack and/or Sudden Strike. +1 Assassination Deadly Precision Shuriken, a Rogue's Belt, levels in Dread Commando, whatever.
Either before or after you have sneak attack, go into Master Thrower. Take Rapid Shot and TWF. Hit people with all the shurikens ever every round.

I made a Monk build recently that involves Invisible Fist, Crinti Shadow Marauder for Shadow Pounce, and several aberrant feats; the idea is to fight like the creature from Aliens, appearing and disappearing all over the place impaling and strangling people. Though it's ludicrously feat-starved, and I expect your DM would look askance at Shadow Pounce.

If you can get Oriental Adventures, Shou Disciple for +Wis to attack and damage at 1st level is sweet and doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet.

There are a few fun things you can do with the Drunken Master's improvised weapons ability; Rei mentioned taking Throw Anything so you can do your unarmed damage with pebbles and origami cranes. My favorite involves a spell from Champions of Ruin, and means that you fight by stabbing people with arrows that force a save vs. paralysis with every hit.

[Tyndmyr]

Hang on. Does he still want to be a halfling? Because it sounds like we're making a ninja now.

Not halfling, human. Sacred Fist is settled on, VoP is right out. His cleric side will be strong...and that alone makes me suspect he'll do aright. It's hard to be completely fail as a cleric.

Especially because we'll have the loot off the previous cleric to pimp him out.

He's previously played the master thrower/shuriken route...and it was godly, until he ran into something with DR. Then it instantly became useless.

[Anxe]

I would go Monk/Warlock into Enlightened Fist. Then he can punch stuff up and hadoken things!

[Xetheral]

Edit: I see you've decided on Cleric/Sacred Fist. Probably a wise choice. :)

If he ends up stuck on the Drunken Master concept, you can (eventually) make the build into a sort of poor-man’s not-quite-ubercharger. Specifically, the 9th level Corkscrew Rush synergizes extremely well with Improved Trip and Shock Trooper, allowing you to use all three Trooper benefits in one round.

Compared to a normal ubercharger you’ll be many levels behind, but as a consolation prize you get to add two highest-attack-bonus attacks whenever you have closely grouped enemies.

You’ll want:
Speed increases
Decent strength
Sizes increases
Pounce (note this needs to be real Pounce, extra move actions aren’t sufficient)
Shock Trooper
Improved Trip
Leap Attack
Flying Kick

Basically, his attack routine would be:

Staggering Heedless Leaping Corkscrew Charge->Full Unarmed Attack->Free Directed Domino Bull-Rush->Two Free Trips->Two Free Attacks

Thematically it is lots of fun, but practically, you’ll have to see just how much of an ubercharger you can work into the build to see if the damage potential reaches an acceptable range for his level. Even if it isn’t competitive, at least this gives him something fun to do other than throw tankards with a non-proficiency penalty.

The simple way to build this by level 15 is:

Lion-Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Drunken Master 9/Frenzied Berserker 1

If he doesn’t want to Rage, and if you can weasel in Mystic Ranger (for Extended Rhino’s Rush and Lion’s Charge), I’d suggest something like:

Mystic Ranger 4/Monk 2/Drunken Master 9

I’m sure both of these progressions can be improved on.

Lastly, it’s in Unapproachable East, but getting a Valorous enchantment for the Unarmed-Boosting Necklace would be nice.

[Telonius]

Wow, this sounds like a player with a deathwish.

Kender + Monk + VoP = doomed.

If the enemies don't kill you, your own party will.


Wow. So a Kender who's somehow managed to turn off the "Wot's dat?" portion of his brain...? The mind boggles. Poor little bugger would probably be shunned by his own race. :smallbiggrin:

[Veyr]

That'd be the easy way, sure. Unfortunately, not going to be practical, since the guy wants to play monk, not just a guy that punches things.
OK, define "monk" then — do you literally mean the Monk class? Because you're talking about a lot of PrCs with Monk in the name. A Monk 2/PsyWar-or-Ardent 18 with Tashalatora gets all major Monk features (Wis to AC, Unarmed Strike damage, Flurry of Blows, Evasion) as a level 20 Monk, plus 18th level manifesting.

[Tyndmyr]

Wow. So a Kender who's somehow managed to turn off the "Wot's dat?" portion of his brain...? The mind boggles. Poor little bugger would probably be shunned by his own race. :smallbiggrin:

I don't even know how Kender/VoP would work. Like...at all. Like, does he borrow things to donate them to the poor? *gets ready to light the kender on fire* There's a few possible interpretations. They're all pretty scary from the parties standpoint.

[Geigan]

I don't even know how Kender/VoP would work. Like...at all. Like, does he borrow things to donate them to the poor? *gets ready to light the kender on fire* There's a few possible interpretations. They're all pretty scary from the parties standpoint.

He has a collection of nothings. He grabs various nothings from everyone and everything. He doesn't like to keep other things because then he wouldn't have as much room for his nothing collection. He doesn't understand others of his race or other people who steal various actual things. It just seems to make other people angry and real things aren't as beautiful as nothings. He thinks if everyone just valued nothing of value then everyone would get along better. He gives away somethings because it seems to make other people happy and he really doesn't value them anyway. The only problem is I could see him valueing a bag of holding too much. Look at how much nothing it can hold! Just upend it and nothing spills out. Nothing after nothing after nothing...

[Coidzor]

I don't even know how Kender/VoP would work. Like...at all. Like, does he borrow things to donate them to the poor? *gets ready to light the kender on fire* There's a few possible interpretations. They're all pretty scary from the parties standpoint.

Really? The one where he instantly loses VoP because the celestials with nothing better to do spot him holding several thousand GP worth of goods that he stole despite weaseling out of the alignment hit for stealing them is scary to the party?

[Tyndmyr]

Still scary. Because then we have Kender atonement plot. I'll take a pass on watching the kender try to atone.

[Coidzor]

Still scary. Because then we have Kender atonement plot. I'll take a pass on watching the kender try to atone.

Hence why you just kill him for being an agent of the enemy sent to distract you from your real purpose.

You did keep an axe-crazy individual right?

[Veyr]

Kenders are invariably bad for the game. Almost more-so than Vow of Peace/Nonviolence...

[Tyndmyr]

Hence why you just kill him for being an agent of the enemy sent to distract you from your real purpose.

You did keep an axe-crazy individual right?

The barbarian unfortunately perished swiftly. That said, my lawful good "paladin" has no fear of losing class features by one perhaps-not-entirely-good act. Yay wizard.

[Coidzor]

The barbarian unfortunately perished swiftly. That said, my lawful good "paladin" has no fear of losing class features by one perhaps-not-entirely-good act. Yay wizard.

Oh, then you have even more reason to go all Inquisitorial on his fuzzy wuzzy toes.

[JonestheSpy]

So, instead of gigantic amount of splatbook-mining and that sort of thing, why not simply suggest to the DM: Hey, there are a few common suggestions for easy fixes to the Monk that don't require any extra book-keeping or changes in flavor: Full BAB, being able to flurry as a standard action instead of full attack, etc.

To my mind that's far superior to having to come up with these bizarre race/class combos and mandatory magic item purchases to make the class playable. I've mentioned this before in these discussions, but I really just don't understand why a common-sense houserule that fixes a badly written game element is regarded as inferior to all of this labyrinthine mechinations to find other published rules to make up for the badly written ones.

[Doc Roc]

So, instead of gigantic amount of splatbook-mining and that sort of thing, why not simply suggest to the DM: Hey, there are a few common suggestions for easy fixes to the Monk that don't require any extra book-keeping or changes in flavor: Full BAB, being able to flurry as a standard action instead of full attack, etc.

To my mind that's far superior to having to come up with these bizarre race/class combos and mandatory magic item purchases to make the class playable. I've mentioned this before in these discussions, but I really just don't understand why a common-sense houserule that fixes a badly written game element is regarded as inferior to all of this labyrinthine mechinations to find other published rules to make up for the badly written ones.

Yes, because going to one of the coolest splat books for a commonly used feat and then getting psionics out of the SRD is gigantic mining.

Turns out, fixing monk isn't easy, and it's not something people agree on at all. Having plunged 200 hours into a monk fix, I really think that you should use someone else's pain, either WotC or one of the community fixes. Or just play Legend.

[Tyndmyr]

Eh, homebrew brings it's own set of problems. Once you open the floodgates to it, you risk more and more. And sure, some of it isn't bad...but it's almost invariably all new. And all requires checking.

My group's fairly skeptical on homebrew that isn't made by us(and even that is quite limited. I think the only class in play is a slightly buffed knight I did.) for this reason.

[Doc Roc]

Eh, homebrew brings it's own set of problems. Once you open the floodgates to it, you risk more and more. And sure, some of it isn't bad...but it's almost invariably all new. And all requires checking.

My group's fairly skeptical on homebrew that isn't made by us(and even that is quite limited. I think the only class in play is a slightly buffed knight I did.) for this reason.

You know, there is this one body of homebrew that's really well-tested. I can't... quite remember the name of it... ::Grins ::

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, I have a good opinion of your stuff...but if I talk the DM into that, then other players'll try to talk him into oddball crap from D&D wiki, and it'll go downhill from there.

It's a shame, really, that some people give homebrew such a bad rep.

[Doc Roc]

Oh, I have a good opinion of your stuff...but if I talk the DM into that, then other players'll try to talk him into oddball crap from D&D wiki, and it'll go downhill from there.

It's a shame, really, that some people give homebrew such a bad rep.

At some point, I'm going f'ing start printing small tomes of it, binding them in leather, and shipping them to recalcitrant GMs. I'm taking this hobby hostage, by strength or by guile.

[JonestheSpy]

Eh, homebrew brings it's own set of problems. Once you open the floodgates to it, you risk more and more. And sure, some of it isn't bad...but it's almost invariably all new. And all requires checking.


I would say the exact same thing about the splatbooks. The differences is that one is a change you've decided on for yourselves, the other is trusting the editors at WotC, who's primary goal a steady flow of new material on the shelves of the gamestores, not necessarily good design.

[Tyndmyr]

I would say the exact same thing about the splatbooks. The differences is that one is a change you've decided on for yourselves, the other is trusting the editors at WotC, who's primary goal a steady flow of new material on the shelves of the gamestores, not necessarily good design.

Oh, right. But while I know the splatbooks fairly well, and feel comfortable allowing them en masse, with very few outright bans(though not every GM does, including this particular one), it's a finite pool of stuff. Once I know it, I know it. The same is not homebrew. There is ALWAYS more homebrew out there of questionable quality for someone to drag in.

And while certain makers do put in the time to have WoTC or better quality...they are the exception. The vast majority of it is terrible, and makes WoTC look good by comparison.

That said, yeah, having books printed would probably help, Doc. For some reason, having something actually in print makes it somehow more reputable to many than an internet printout. No doubt you could draw interesting conclusions about psychology based on this...but I've seen it a lot.

[The Cat Goddess]

One small suggestion...

If you decide to go the Warshaper route, you should use Changeling as the race.

After all, Changelings are essentially always in an "alternate form", so they would always gain the benefits of th Warshaper class. :smallbiggrin:

Plus, being shapeshifter subtype, they auto-qualify for the class... just needing the BAB.

[Telonius]

One small suggestion...

If you decide to go the Warshaper route, you should use Changeling as the race.

After all, Changelings are essentially always in an "alternate form", so they would always gain the benefits of th Warshaper class. :smallbiggrin:

Plus, being shapeshifter subtype, they auto-qualify for the class... just needing the BAB.

Changeling would be the easiest entry path, but the OP mentioned that the guy was set on human, and wanted to stick to Core+completes. Otherwise I wouldn't have put that random Druid level in there. (Galled me to have to do it, it's so inelegant, but it gets at what he's after).

[Veyr]

Hey, there are a few common suggestions for easy fixes to the Monk that don't require any extra book-keeping or changes in flavor
No, there aren't, and every time you suggest that there are you insult everyone who has spent a large amount of time and effort on homebrew Monk fixes.

I have mentioned this to you before and yet you continue to make this assertion.

So once again, I am asking you to

Please stop making unfounded and insulting assertions.


Full BAB, being able to flurry as a standard action instead of full attack, etc.
These do not fix the Monk, at all. Seriously, please, just stop.

[Tvtyrant]

At some point, I'm going f'ing start printing small tomes of it, binding them in leather, and shipping them to recalcitrant GMs. I'm taking this hobby hostage, by strength or by guile.

"Here is a flower, will you please make a donation and accept Legend?"

[JonestheSpy]

No, there aren't, and every time you suggest that there are you insult everyone who has spent a large amount of time and effort on homebrew Monk fixes.

I have mentioned this to you before and yet you continue to make this assertion.

So once again, I am asking you to

Please stop making unfounded and insulting assertions.


These do not fix the Monk, at all. Seriously, please, just stop.

Look dude, what may work for some people's game may not work for others. The ideas I suggested have been thought of by plenty of other people as well, so it's not like I'm unilaterally insisting on one concept.

My suggestion for you is not to be insulted when someone puts forth an idea that doesn't fit in with your style of play.

[Curmudgeon]

Hey, there are a few common suggestions for easy fixes to the Monk that don't require any extra book-keeping or changes in flavor: Full BAB, being able to flurry as a standard action instead of full attack, etc.
These "easy fixes" don't fix anything important in the Monk class. The biggest problems of the class are that the abilities are all over the place and don't work together, and that it requires multiple attributes with high modifiers. Your "easy fixes" just make the Monk better at hitting things, but not as much better as a single daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop would.

Just because these suggestions are common doesn't make them worthwhile.

[MeeposFire]

These "easy fixes" don't fix anything important in the Monk class. The biggest problems of the class are that the abilities are all over the place and don't work together, and that it requires multiple attributes with high modifiers. Your "easy fixes" just make the Monk better at hitting things, but not as much better as a single daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop would.

Just because these suggestions are common doesn't make them worthwhile.

Actually making flurry usable as part of an attack action would let it work with speed increases that the monk gives and makes the seemingly common idea of using spring attack actually work. Just like snap kick. Probably the most needed single thing for a monk if you want to keep the same general class features and ideas as the original monk. Of course it needs more than that but it is a big help.

[Veyr]

Look dude, what may work for some people's game may not work for others. The ideas I suggested have been thought of by plenty of other people as well, so it's not like I'm unilaterally insisting on one concept.

My suggestion for you is not to be insulted when someone puts forth an idea that doesn't fit in with your style of play.
And if you presented it that way that would be not a big deal.

But this at least the second time you've stated something along the lines of "I don't know why everyone spends so much time on Monk fixes when you can just do this simple thing." This is insulting to those people, because apparently you think they're too stupid to see the obvious and so waste their time on more complicated fixes.

People do more complicated Monk fixes because your "quick simple suggestions" don't actually fix the Monk. They help, sure, but that's not the end of the story here. The Monk you describe would still be massively less powerful than an CR-appropriate encounter, and therefore it is objectively underpowered and your "fixes" did not work.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually making flurry usable as part of an attack action would let it work with speed increases that the monk gives and makes the seemingly common idea of using spring attack actually work. Just like snap kick.
So why isn't putting Snap Kick on the Monk bonus feat list the fix, then?

[The Cat Goddess]

So why isn't putting Snap Kick on the Monk bonus feat list the fix, then?

Uh, he's saying that "Flurry" should be "Snap Kick" (functionally the same).

Not a "Bonus Feat" but a "Class Feature".

[Tvtyrant]

Or grant a # of extra attacks equal to double their normal attacks but at the same BaB as the normal attacks, so that they end up with 6 at level 20 as +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5 and have them able to make the extras on a move action, so you get +15/+10/+5 on a move and the whole attack spectrum on a full attack.

[MeeposFire]

Plus I want to keep snap kick as an additional option to add on top of that attack action flurry.

For example Let us assume my 20th level monk has a +20 BAB and my version of flurry. When I make a full attack attack I choose to use flurry (it has no penalty at this point) I have a round of attacks +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 (assuming no haste, two weapon fighting, or other bonus attacks). If you have snap kick you could choose to take a -2 and get another extra attack.

let us say that kiting is a good tactic in this fight or I just need to be mobile. I use my spring attack feat which means I get to use an attack action. Since I can use this on an attack action I can use my flurry as well. This rounds attacks would be +20/+20/+20 (assuming no other extra attacks from bounding assault or rapid blitz). Once again snap kick would be a good idea again.

Not the only fix but it certainly helps a bit.

[JonestheSpy]

These "easy fixes" don't fix anything important in the Monk class. The biggest problems of the class are that the abilities are all over the place and don't work together, and that it requires multiple attributes with high modifiers. Your "easy fixes" just make the Monk better at hitting things, but not as much better as a single daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop would.

Just because these suggestions are common doesn't make them worthwhile.

Actually, I didn't go into the MAD issue because I didn't want to completely repeat a bunch of threads. that's the 'etc' part.



Just because these suggestions are common doesn't make them worthwhile.

Actually, the fact that they are common does indeed indicate that many people find them worthwhile. You do realize you're declaring that all the people whose playstyles work with said tinkering are somehow "wrong", don't you?

Like Veyr, you seem unable to separate "plays in a different style" from "attack on my style".



And if you presented it that way that would be not a big deal.

But this at least the second time you've stated something along the lines of "I don't know why everyone spends so much time on Monk fixes when you can just do this simple thing." This is insulting to those people, because apparently you think they're too stupid to see the obvious and so waste their time on more complicated fixes.

Well, I'm sorry you misunderstood. The point was not "You should do it my way" so much as a comment on the habit of some folks to search through all sorts of far-out non-core material and piece together bizarre builds for mechanical advantage instead of trying to just fix the blatant flaws in the class everyone knows exist. It's not about stupid, rather the tendency Tyndmyr voiced to value published material more than one's own abilities to fix something broken. It's a very common thing and I would never call anyone stupid for doing so.



People do more complicated Monk fixes because your "quick simple suggestions" don't actually fix the Monk. They help, sure, but that's not the end of the story here. The Monk you describe would still be massively less powerful than an CR-appropriate encounter, and therefore it is objectively underpowered and your "fixes" did not work.

Obviously I disagree, and I rather think CR is so uneven that's it's not a very good judge of such things. And I certainly have nothing against complicated monk fixes, I just assume that if a player declares they'd like to play a monk character with some homebrew elements, an average DM is more likely to go along some simple tweaks that improve the class instead of a complete rewrite. But if a DM likes Doc Roc or Fax Celestis's version of the class, more power to them.

[faceroll]

The quick fixes Jones suggests don't fix the general problems melee has, but would probably push them up to T4. Monks get decent skill points, and flurry on a standard attack would make them at least as potent as a sneak attacking rogue, perhaps more so as they don't have to jump through the optimization hoops to make up for all the shortcomings of a rogue.


No, there aren't, and every time you suggest that there are you insult everyone who has spent a large amount of time and effort on homebrew Monk fixes.

I have mentioned this to you before and yet you continue to make this assertion.

So once again, I am asking you to

Please stop making unfounded and insulting assertions.


These do not fix the Monk, at all. Seriously, please, just stop.

Internet; srs bsns.

[MeeposFire]

sort of like inverse rogue. Rogue gets bonus dice and needs to use feats to pick up extra attacks while monks get extra attacks for free and has to invest in feats to boost his damage dice.

[Doc Roc]

"Here is a flower, will you please make a donation and accept Legend?"

If I had vats, and an urge to conquer the world, you'd already know, because you'd be paying for the privilege.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, the fact that they are common does indeed indicate that many people find them worthwhile.
That doesn't follow. Popularity and worth aren't proportional. The fact that some "fixes" are tried by a lot of people doesn't mean that those fixes solve the problems; it just means that those are easy approaches. Now, if we'd gotten hundreds of people posting to say that those fixes made the Monk just as versatile as the Sorcerer, say, then I'd attribute significant worth to that fix. But what I've seen is that a lot of people make that suggestion, but I've never seen anyone claiming they'd tested it and found it worthwhile.

You do realize you're declaring that all the people whose playstyles work with said tinkering are somehow "wrong", don't you?
I'm declaring nothing of the sort ─ and I'm still waiting for that groundswell of postings proclaiming the Monk as their favorite class to play once such tinkering has been done.

[Doc Roc]

That doesn't follow. Popularity and worth aren't proportional. The fact that some "fixes" are tried by a lot of people doesn't mean that those fixes solve the problems; it just means that those are easy approaches. Now, if we'd gotten hundreds of people posting to say that those fixes made the Monk just as versatile as the Sorcerer, say, then I'd attribute significant worth to that fix. But what I've seen is that a lot of people make that suggestion, but I've never seen anyone claiming they'd tested it and found it worthwhile.

I'm declaring nothing of the sort ─ and I'm still waiting for that groundswell of postings proclaiming the Monk as their favorite class to play once such tinkering has been done.

Actually, in fact, I've heard quite the contrary very often. The fixes are popular with message-board people but rarely with players in my experience. Either players see no problem with monk, or understand the problem and realize that just full BAB doesn't help. Players want more cool stuff, more often, in more ways.

[Rei_Jin]

*Sigh*

The first problem with the monk class, is how it is often looked at... and that is, in comparison to Tier 1 and 2 classes. Guess what guys? It can't compete. Very little can.

Now, if you want to "Fix" the monk by helping it achieve its intended goal when built, which is to be a Mage Slayer, Fast Scout, and crazy Kung Fu dude, then there are ways to do that. The problem you have, is that you would strip back the class to its bare, bare essentials, and then rebuild it as something that it does not resemble now.

Most people who play Monks, play it for 6 levels at most to get into a PrC. Same with Fighter. Note how they're both in the same tier?

The "easiest" fix that most people suggest, is the Unarmed Swordsage variant. It works. The next one is to give the Monk a full BAB and allow them to Flurry as a Standard Action (or to give them pounce). Note that the Swordsage doesn't have a full BAB, and it still works.

The fix that I like, is to take some of the Warlock Invocations, and give them to the monk as usable in place of his Stunning Fist. For example, Repelling Blast to knock your enemy backwards and prone... Flee the Scene so that he can "bounce" around the battlefield... Devour Magic so that once he's closed with the mage, he can dispel their protections. Oh, and do you and the monk a favour, and declare them to be Supernatural abilities, not Spell Like. Otherwise, that change is pointless.

Sure, some of the other monk class features could do with an adjustment. Slow Fall is horrible, Still Mind is pointless, and Diamond Soul needs to be only active against hostile magics. But there are good aspects about the monk, and they can be built on.

[Coidzor]

They're not comparing it to T1. They're comparing it to T3, T4, and T5.

[MeeposFire]

Indeed comparing to tier 1s gets old really fast. Its basically "can you do almost anything almost at any time?" and if you say no then you are not good enough.

Frankly a monk (and other warrior types) should be based around the level of the warblade, swordsage, and crusader while being different in mechanics (if you make them have maneuvers you might as well just stick with those classes which is a viable route) ie tier 3. So in order to compete with those classes you need to evaluate what makes those classes tier 3.

1) Viable whether standing still and when they have to move. Most warrior classes get screwed over when they are stuck without a full attack action. In my opinion you cannot be a tier 3 without the ability to attack effectively on a standard action. TOB does it mostly by strikes and some boosts.

2) decent skills with a decent list. Self explanitory.

3) Ways to use the newer action types. While not 100% required it is nice to have interrupts and swift actions covered. These are boosts and counters.

4) No easy way to completely negate your abilities. For instance if your only good trick is a charge and you can't charge that is not tier 3. Being able to attack well on a standard action really helps with this one as it keeps you with many options. You either need a lot of tricks or a few tricks that are so versatile that it is always effective.

There may be a few other things but these are a big few.

[Rei_Jin]

I like the way you put that. I'll be honest and say that the Tier idea came in during my absence from D&D forums, so I'm still picking up bits and pieces about it.

In regards to your points...

1) This is the biggest issue that non-ToB martial characters have. You can either move OR do awesome things... not both. There's a few very rare exceptions (all of them use some form of Pounce, I believe) but mostly this is why non-ToB and non-spellcasters get dumped in Tier 4 or below. One solution for the monk would be to allow them to use their Flurry (or Decisive Strike) on any attack once per round... so that they could do it at the end of a Charge, as a Standard Action, or with a Full Round action.

2) Agreed about skills... it gives you things to do OUTSIDE of combat. For monks, they have some good out of combat skills, with Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy. All of those skills bar Diplomacy work off stats they would normally have a decent score in, so they do okay there. More skillpoints would help them, but that would help everyone... it leads to an arms race, where everyone ends up with a huge number of skill points on every class, and you no longer need a skill monkey, cos EVERYONE is a skill monkey.

3) Interrupts and Swift Actions? There's some feats that allow you to interrupt others actions (Stand Still, as an example) and the monk has a great mechanic that you could leverage the use of Swift Actions off. Stunning Fist. We already have feats that burn uses of it to do other things, so why not add some as class features? My aforementioned idea to give them certain Warlock Invocations usable by burning Stunning Fist attempts, so you could take it further, and give them some handy abilities (Burn Stunning Fist attempt as a Swift Action to add something to your attacks this round)

4) Mobility/the ability to get to your opponent, and get through their defences are the biggest issues in this respect for Martial classes (as far as I'm concerned). Monks have a lot of speed, Tumble, Balance, and Jump... this is a good base. What they don't have, is a way to get through that pesky mage/cleric/druid magical defenses. Again, there are some feats that can help with that (the Mageslayer line) but if the Monk had the ability to, by burning Stunning Fist attempts, use a Targeted Greater Dispel Magic on a melee or touch attack against an enemy, that would help a LOT.

Of course, there's many other things that you could do, but I think that those basic ideas would fix a lot of the problems that exist with the class.

[Veyr]

Re: 1) The problem here is that, at least IMO, Flurry of Blows does not count as an "awesome thing" to do after moving.

[Telonius]

The reason (imo) that it gets compared to T1's is that T1's tend to stand behind everybody else. So when you get something like the Monk's speed bonus, it looks like it's supposed to be there for the sole purpose of getting through the initial line of combatants to reach pointy hat. Spell Resistance at higher levels reinforces this; and the fact that Stunning or Grappling (if it connects) would actually give an unprepared caster some problems, cements the idea of what this class is supposed to be for.

If its (apparently) intended role is to be a mage slayer, it ought to be able to actually slay a mage. When it can't do that, people get upset - because (imo) they really, really want somebody to be able to do it, and Monk was so promising at first glance. This isn't totally the Monk's fault; higher-tier classes like Fighter or even Warblade don't have much better of a chance against a prepared, even lightly-optimized Wizard. But even if there are other classes that are actually able to perform that function better against a typical Wizard, people still look at the Monk and are disappointed every time. It's as if the king named his son "Atlas" and he turned out to be a weakling.

[Telonius]

4) Mobility/the ability to get to your opponent, and get through their defences are the biggest issues in this respect for Martial classes (as far as I'm concerned). Monks have a lot of speed, Tumble, Balance, and Jump... this is a good base. What they don't have, is a way to get through that pesky mage/cleric/druid magical defenses. Again, there are some feats that can help with that (the Mageslayer line) but if the Monk had the ability to, by burning Stunning Fist attempts, use a Targeted Greater Dispel Magic on a melee or touch attack against an enemy, that would help a LOT.

Of course, there's many other things that you could do, but I think that those basic ideas would fix a lot of the problems that exist with the class.

I wonder if it would work to burn movement speed (instead of stun attempts) to do interesting tricks. It's pretty rare that a higher-level Monk actually uses all of his speed in a round.

[faceroll]

Re: 1) The problem here is that, at least IMO, Flurry of Blows does not count as an "awesome thing" to do after moving.

Eh, it'd be a T4 ability. It's not Wolf Climbs the Mountain or whatever, but it'd stack up fairly favorably with sneak attack.

[Tyndmyr]

1) This is the biggest issue that non-ToB martial characters have. You can either move OR do awesome things... not both. There's a few very rare exceptions (all of them use some form of Pounce, I believe) but mostly this is why non-ToB and non-spellcasters get dumped in Tier 4 or below. One solution for the monk would be to allow them to use their Flurry (or Decisive Strike) on any attack once per round... so that they could do it at the end of a Charge, as a Standard Action, or with a Full Round action.

Eh, there's always toys like Anklet of Translocation. Swift action 10 ft move. Combine with 5 ft steps, and you've gotten yourself a fairly inexpensive way to keep full attacks in a lot of situations. Especially if you have reach, and you probably want that anyhow.

It's not quite a pounce, but it's good enough for any build where you don't want the barb dip.