Yes Another help me out lvl 9 optimization cleric buffer thread.

[Forsaker]

First off good day to all of you, thank you for even watching my thread. I am pretty new to the forums, my grammar is horrible since I am not from the united states and yes I need some help at optomizing a level 9 cleric.

Its an eberron campain setting and he (myDM) wont let me use forgotten realms or any other type of campain setting, no substitution racial levels or variants either, but he will let me use EVERYTHING ELSE (including ALL dragon magazines). I rolled some sick stats (18,18,17,17,16,16). I asked for some help already and someone expirienced (thanks Biffoniacus) gived me some sick ideas but I feel that I need even more!, maybe more PRC's OPTIONS!. My goals are buffing my self up with DMM persistance and hit like a truck then craft my own nightsticks (cheaper), Spell domain to cast (Anyspell) wraithstrike and mix it up with power attack then later on pick magic domain with contemplative dip level so I can cast AMF and then at level 12 pick extraordinary spell aim(ESA) and persist AMF while using it with ESA.

It sounds pretty solid to me but I need SOME BETTER ADVICES!!!!, my DM is a very BY THE RULES guy, he dosen't need to bann ANYTHING to just destroy you (he dosen't need to cheat either) he can just throw up a fair challenge raiting and make a hell of a fight, he will not bann anything but he will not let you use something that is not ''by the rules''.

It is why I got to build something STRONG but ''by the rules'' at the same time. I was thinking on plaining and spell domains at first but I CAN'T PICK THEM BOTH since they are in diferent dieties. So its either plaining / magic domains or spell and magic domains. If I go with Lawful Neutral diety (Aureon) then I can mix my build with atlast a level dip for church inquisitor and then go straight for divine oracle (should look like this 3 cleric/ 2 church inq/ 4 divine oracle and then later on contemplative). If I don't go that way then I have no other choice of just picking up neutral good (undying court) for plaining domain (for extend spell) and somehow get magic domain for atlast doing the AMF combo later on. If I go neutral good I can't pick church inquisitor and ill have to go 5 cleric / 4 divine oracle this is my second plan.

I got a few questions on top of my need for help lol, when I use Anyspell for wraithstrike for example, is it divine? or is it arcane? so if its arcane I can't use wraithstrike with DMM persist am I correct? SECOND QUESTION! I asked him if a pearl of power could work with my Anyspell and he said no. Let me clear the things out: I prepare and cast Anyspell to get wraithstrike and then prepare and cast wraithstrike, since pearl of power says that it can recall any spell that you had prepared and then cast, the spell is then prepared again just as if it had not been cast. It dosen't say that it has to be you'r last casted spell so that means that once I cast both spells (Anyspell and wraithstrike) I can get anyspell back and use it on a diferent spell, can I do this? or it wont work that way?.

Anyways I was thinking about going with this build: Human cleric 3/ chruch inquisitor 2 / divine oracle 4. Domains: Spell, magic, inquisition (from prc), feats: Extend spell, persistance, divine meta persist, skill focus (knowledge) from complete scoundrel (magical buildings), power attack, craft rod (for nightsticks). Items I think I got that clear but suggestions are awsomely welcome :). MY stats 18 str, 17 dex, 17 con, 16 int, 20 wis (+2 abilit scores), 16 cha ( ill cast some charisma plus spell so I can cast more persistance spells). Advices on switching the stats are more than welcome welcome too :), any advice in general is more than welcome. THANKS!!.

[holywhippet]

It is why I got to build something STRONG but ''by the rules'' at the same time. I was thinking on plaining and spell domains at first but I CAN'T PICK THEM BOTH since they are in diferent dieties. So its either plaining / magic domains or spell and magic domains.

Unless the Eberron setting has rules prohibiting it (not sure, never played there) a cleric doesn't need to worship any particular god. They can just choose an alignment and a pair of domains to suit their type of faith.

[Tael]

Your build is probably the most powerful thing you'll be able to utilize effectively with your level of experience. You don't need more help, or a better build, you need to learn the rules better and get experience.

[Forsaker]

Your build is probably the most powerful thing you'll be able to utilize effectively with your level of experience. You don't need more help, or a better build, you need to learn the rules better and get experience.
Well hopefully you are right but I will keep an eye on those dragon magazines cheese feats, thanks for your post.

[Forsaker]

Bump! Bump!

[Morbis Meh]

SECOND QUESTION! I asked him if a pearl of power could work with my Anyspell and he said no. Let me clear the things out: I prepare and cast Anyspell to get wraithstrike and then prepare and cast wraithstrike, since pearl of power says that it can recall any spell that you had prepared and then cast, the spell is then prepared again just as if it had not been cast. It dosen't say that it has to be you'r last casted spell so that means that once I cast both spells (Anyspell and wraithstrike) I can get anyspell back and use it on a diferent spell, can I do this? or it wont work that way?.


Ultimately your DM decides what works and what doesn't but you should be able to use anyspell in conjunction with a pearl of power; however there is an alternate way to get around this. In complete champion there is a feat called retrieve spell which enables you to regain a spell you just cast by spending turn attempts equal to spell level. It requires two divine feats but you have DMM and Extra turning counts as one I believe so you should be good in that regard.

[Eldariel]

SECOND QUESTION! I asked him if a pearl of power could work with my Anyspell and he said no. Let me clear the things out: I prepare and cast Anyspell to get wraithstrike and then prepare and cast wraithstrike, since pearl of power says that it can recall any spell that you had prepared and then cast, the spell is then prepared again just as if it had not been cast. It dosen't say that it has to be you'r last casted spell so that means that once I cast both spells (Anyspell and wraithstrike) I can get anyspell back and use it on a diferent spell, can I do this? or it wont work that way?

Technically you should be capable of recalling either as long as you have the slot open; you prepared both spells today and as such, both qualify for Pearl of Power. It's fine if you're only able to recall Anyspell, though (and there's little logic behind that not being possible).

Making Spell Domain a spontaneous domain [PHBII] sidesteps such issues tho, as you can cast Anyspell as many times as you have level 3 spellslots daily that way (of course, you need to empty the Domain-slot between each casting to actually get something outta Anyspell tho). There's also Domain Spontaneity in Complete Divine but that costs turn attempts so it should be a last resort if you already have Spontaneous Domain Casting in some more important domain (unlikely; in my books, Spell is on the top of that list).

[Forsaker]

SECOND QUESTION! I asked him if a pearl of power could work with my Anyspell and he said no. Let me clear the things out: I prepare and cast Anyspell to get wraithstrike and then prepare and cast wraithstrike, since pearl of power says that it can recall any spell that you had prepared and then cast, the spell is then prepared again just as if it had not been cast. It dosen't say that it has to be you'r last casted spell so that means that once I cast both spells (Anyspell and wraithstrike) I can get anyspell back and use it on a diferent spell, can I do this? or it wont work that way?.


Ultimately your DM decides what works and what doesn't but you should be able to use anyspell in conjunction with a pearl of power; however there is an alternate way to get around this. In complete champion there is a feat called retrieve spell which enables you to regain a spell you just cast by spending turn attempts equal to spell level. It requires two divine feats but you have DMM and Extra turning counts as one I believe so you should be good in that regard.

Nice one :), ill change my build a little bit then. Thank you :).

[Forsaker]

Technically you should be capable of recalling either as long as you have the slot open; you prepared both spells today and as such, both qualify for Pearl of Power. It's fine if you're only able to recall Anyspell, though (and there's little logic behind that not being possible).

Making Spell Domain a spontaneous domain [PHBII] sidesteps such issues tho, as you can cast Anyspell as many times as you have level 3 spellslots daily that way (of course, you need to empty the Domain-slot between each casting to actually get something outta Anyspell tho). There's also Domain Spontaneity in Complete Divine but that costs turn attempts so it should be a last resort if you already have Spontaneous Domain Casting in some more important domain (unlikely; in my books, Spell is on the top of that list).

Another very effective solution, thank you all!.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Extra Turning is required for crafting Night Sticks.

Note that the Inquisition domain's granted power does not help you against opponents trying to dispel your buffs, it only gives a bonus to your checks to dispel opponents' spells.

Spells cast by Clerics are divine spells by default, though Anyspell does specify that "it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level" so it probably would be considered arcane. In this case, you could use Illumian and use Naenhoon to persist two such spells, but you would still need to get DMM: Persistent if you intend to persist more than two spells each day.

A Pearl of Power specifies that you can use it to recall any one spell that you had prepared and cast. You don't have to choose the last spell of that level that you cast, or even one that you cast that day. If you suddenly need to cast Remove Blindness and you last cast it over a year ago but haven't prepared it since then, you can still use the pearl to recall it and have it prepared and available to cast immediately. It only matters that the spell's level matches the pearl's level, and that you ever had prepared and cast it prior to activating the pearl, there are no other limitations.

The following is from the Eberron Campaign Setting, page 35:

You may also decide that your cleric has no deity
but instead channels divine power from the spiritual
remnants of the Dragon Above. Select two domains that
reflect the cleric’s spiritual inclination and abilities. The
restriction on alignment domains still applies.
You can pick any two domains you want and still be Lawful aligned, it doesn't matter what the deities grant because you don't have to pick one. Start out with the Spell domain with either Planning (Extend Spell) or Undeath (Extra Turning), and pick up Magic via Contemplative.

Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are detailed in Unearthed Arcana, and there are additional flaws specific to each class in Dragon 326. You can have up to two flaws, and each one grants you an extra feat. I'd go with Divine Gestures, which makes your divine spells suffer arcane spell failure for weapons or armor, and Aligned Devotion, which makes your healing spells have reduced or no effect on creatures whose alignment is different from yours.

Go with an Illumian (Naenhoon) since the flaws will make up for the loss of the Human bonus feat. Get the Planning and Spell domains, use (Extended) Mage Armor with Magic Vestment and Anyspell: Shield with Naenhoon Persist and Magic Vestment instead of wearing armor or carrying a shield. Use a Pearl of Power to recall Anyspell to prepare and cast Wraithstrike, using your one remaining Naenhoon use to Persist it. Go LN or LG, if you pick LG you can use (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED instead of Mage Armor. Keep your build Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 2/ Divine Oracle 4, your next level should be one more Church Inquisitor and then take all ten levels of Contemplative after that. That will grant you tons of immunities and various other benefits. You'll need to be able to spontaneously cast Cure spells for the Aligned Devotion flaw. Feats should be Extend Spell (Planning), Persistent Spell (Flaw), DMM: Persistent (Flaw), Extra Turning (1st), Power Attack (3rd), Skill Focus: Kn: Religion (Frog God's Fane in CS), maybe Touch of Healing (CC) or another Extra Turning (6th), and Craft Rod (9th).

[Forsaker]

Extra Turning is required for crafting Night Sticks.

Note that the Inquisition domain's granted power does not help you against opponents trying to dispel your buffs, it only gives a bonus to your checks to dispel opponents' spells.

Spells cast by Clerics are divine spells by default, though Anyspell does specify that "it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level" so it probably would be considered arcane. In this case, you could use Illumian and use Naenhoon to persist two such spells, but you would still need to get DMM: Persistent if you intend to persist more than two spells each day.

A Pearl of Power specifies that you can use it to recall any one spell that you had prepared and cast. You don't have to choose the last spell of that level that you cast, or even one that you cast that day. If you suddenly need to cast Remove Blindness and you last cast it over a year ago but haven't prepared it since then, you can still use the pearl to recall it and have it prepared and available to cast immediately. It only matters that the spell's level matches the pearl's level, and that you ever had prepared and cast it prior to activating the pearl, there are no other limitations.

The following is from the Eberron Campaign Setting, page 35:

You can pick any two domains you want and still be Lawful aligned, it doesn't matter what the deities grant because you don't have to pick one. Start out with the Spell domain with either Planning (Extend Spell) or Undeath (Extra Turning), and pick up Magic via Contemplative.

Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are detailed in Unearthed Arcana, and there are additional flaws specific to each class in Dragon 326. You can have up to two flaws, and each one grants you an extra feat. I'd go with Divine Gestures, which makes your divine spells suffer arcane spell failure for weapons or armor, and Aligned Devotion, which makes your healing spells have reduced or no effect on creatures whose alignment is different from yours.

Go with an Illumian (Naenhoon) since the flaws will make up for the loss of the Human bonus feat. Get the Planning and Spell domains, use (Extended) Mage Armor with Magic Vestment and Anyspell: Shield with Naenhoon Persist and Magic Vestment instead of wearing armor or carrying a shield. Use a Pearl of Power to recall Anyspell to prepare and cast Wraithstrike, using your one remaining Naenhoon use to Persist it. Go LN or LG, if you pick LG you can use (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED instead of Mage Armor. Keep your build Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 2/ Divine Oracle 4, your next level should be one more Church Inquisitor and then take all ten levels of Contemplative after that. That will grant you tons of immunities and various other benefits. You'll need to be able to spontaneously cast Cure spells for the Aligned Devotion flaw. Feats should be Extend Spell (Planning), Persistent Spell (Flaw), DMM: Persistent (Flaw), Extra Turning (1st), Power Attack (3rd), Skill Focus: Kn: Religion (Frog God's Fane in CS), maybe Touch of Healing (CC) or another Extra Turning (6th), and Craft Rod (9th).


Thanks again, that sounds perfect. But now I got one last issue to resolve .... he found out that nightsticks might not be able to stack. This is what he found in rules compendium....

in page 83 from rules compedium it says:

''Some items—particularly those that have a limited
number of uses per day—indicate that they must be worn
for a certain length of time before they can be used. This
attunement period prevents creatures from treating them
as disposable tools to be donned and stowed repeatedly
throughout the day.''

then in page 137 it says:
Stacking Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls,
damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes don’t stack
with themselves. Two bonuses of the same type don’t stack
even if they come from different spells or from effects other
than spells.

Nightstick says:
Nightstick: This black rod carved of darkly stained wood
is inset with religious symbols of various deities. Anyone who
possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains
four more uses of the ability per day.
Moderate necromancy; CL 10th; Craft Rod, Extra Turning,
class ability to turn or rebuke undead; Price 7,500 gp.

I am debating with him becuase it dosen't say that nightstick is using a spell to be created so that means that it could stack. But I need a stronger proof that they can stack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

in page 83 from rules compedium it says:

''Some items—particularly those that have a limited
number of uses per day—indicate that they must be worn
for a certain length of time before they can be used. This
attunement period prevents creatures from treating them
as disposable tools to be donned and stowed repeatedly
throughout the day.''
The items to which this is referring all specifically say in their description that they must be worn for a certain period of time before they become active. Night Sticks say nothing of the sort in their description. Even if this did apply to them, you only need to own one for a day and then it works until you relinquish ownership of it, see below.


then in page 137 it says:
Stacking Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls,
damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes don’t stack
with themselves. Two bonuses of the same type don’t stack
even if they come from different spells or from effects other
than spells.
Night Sticks do not provide a bonus. If it were "+4 uses per day" it would be specified as a bonus and would not stack, but it's "gains four more uses of that ability per day" which is not specified as a bonus and thus it does stack. Furthermore, there are no spells required for creation of the item, thus the source of the bonus is not a spell. A Night Stick's prerequisites are Craft Rod, Extra Turning, and an ability to turn/rebuke undead. Night Sticks emulate the Extra Turning benefit, which specifically states that it does stack with itself.


Nightstick says:
Nightstick: This black rod carved of darkly stained wood
is inset with religious symbols of various deities. Anyone who
possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains
four more uses of the ability per day.

Possess: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/possesses) "1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own"
If it's your nightstick, you get its benefit. There is nothing stating that it must be worn in a certain spot or carried in your hand. You can have a backpack full of them and benefit from all of them.

[Forsaker]

The items to which this is referring all specifically say in their description that they must be worn for a certain period of time before they become active. Night Sticks say nothing of the sort in their description. Even if this did apply to them, you only need to own one for a day and then it works until you relinquish ownership of it, see below.


Night Sticks do not provide a bonus. If it were "+4 uses per day" it would be specified as a bonus and would not stack, but it's "gains four more uses of that ability per day" which is not specified as a bonus and thus it does stack. Furthermore, there are no spells required for creation of the item, thus the source of the bonus is not a spell. A Night Stick's prerequisites are Craft Rod, Extra Turning, and an ability to turn/rebuke undead. Night Sticks emulate the Extra Turning benefit, which specifically states that it does stack with itself.



Possess: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/possesses) "1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own"
If it's your nightstick, you get its benefit. There is nothing stating that it must be worn in a certain spot or carried in your hand. You can have a backpack full of them and benefit from all of them.


Hahah that was pretty nice it help'd me alot but Im still debating with him badly but I doubt ill beat him atm unless I find something like an FAQ or errata, I wish that WOTC would support d&d 3.5 once again :x, this actually makes our build alot less powerfull, thanks again Biffoniacus, it was a pleasure.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can still get one Night Stick, drop Craft Rod to have Extra Turning three times, and get a Reliquary Holy Symbol from MIC. With Cha 16 and casting Eagle's Splendor before buffing, that would be 26 turn attempts. Naenhoon Persistent costs six per, and DMM: Persist costs seven per, so that would be four persistent buffs every day.

Go LN, pick a different flaw instead of Aligned Devotion such as Shaky, and choose to channel negative energy. That gives you Rebuke Undead instead of Turn Undead, which would be usable 26/day. Take one level of Sacred Exorcist, and you'll gain the ability to Turn Undead, which would also be usable 26/day. Switch your ability scores to Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 18, putting your two level up points into the 17s, and each would be usable 27/day. Each one could do one Naenhoon Persist and three DMM Persists, for eight persistent buffs per day.

[Forsaker]

You can still get one Night Stick, drop Craft Rod to have Extra Turning three times, and get a Reliquary Holy Symbol from MIC. With Cha 16 and casting Eagle's Splendor before buffing, that would be 26 turn attempts. Naenhoon Persistent costs six per, and DMM: Persist costs seven per, so that would be four persistent buffs every day.

Go LN, pick a different flaw instead of Aligned Devotion such as Shaky, and choose to channel negative energy. That gives you Rebuke Undead instead of Turn Undead, which would be usable 26/day. Take one level of Sacred Exorcist, and you'll gain the ability to Turn Undead, which would also be usable 26/day. Switch your ability scores to Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 18, putting your two level up points into the 17s, and each would be usable 27/day. Each one could do one Naenhoon Persist and three DMM Persists, for eight persistent buffs per day.

Alright now ... you just won D&D with a cleric lol, that is so freaking sick, I didn't know that I could use both turn undeads and rebuke undeads individually to use DMM, you actually can since sacred exorcist gives me turn undead has a cleric ....... this what I call CLERIC OPTIMIZATION PERSISTANCE!!, thanks so much. I doubt that he can do anything agains't this one since he dosen't bann stuff unless he founds a flaw or he founds something in the rules. Very powerful combination right now wow.

[Forsaker]

Ahhh I found out that you need to be good with sacred exorcist :(, if you enter has a good cleric and then switch from good to neutral do I lose the turn undead from sacred exorcist since I don't meet the pre requisite from the PRC anymore? sorry for bothering so much lol I just have to make sure.

[Forsaker]

Hmmm I found a ''maybe'' soulution to this. on Players handbook says:

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can
turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric
who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such
creatures., forcing them to cower in awe of his power. If your
character is a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, you must choose
whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an
evil cleric. Once you make this choice, it cannot be reversed. This
decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous
cure or inflict spells (see above).

So what about a good cleric that picks a neutral diety? does he chooses from rebuke and turn undead? or since he is a good cleric he will just turn undead instead of rebuke even tho my diety is neutral? It clearly says neutral cleric and neutral diety can choose but it dosen't say anything of a good cleric with a neutral diety can choose between has well.

If I can be good aligment with a neutral diety and choose between the two then that means that I can meet the pre requisite of the Sacred exorcist!!!. So ill be a good cleric with a netural diety picking up rebuking and then picking up sacred exorcist for turn undead ability has well YAY!.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can start out neutral aligned, and not worship any deity, and choose to Rebuke Undead. "Once you make this choice, it cannot be reversed." Later in your career you can switch to a good alignment, still not worship any particular deity, and you'll still be Rebuking instead of Turning. At that point you can begin taking Sacred Exorcist and have both Rebuke Undead and Turn Undead.

The good-cleric-of-a-neutral-diety trick doesn't work, because most neutral deities specify whether they grant the ability to rebuke or turn, plus there aren't any Eberron deities who grant the domains you want. You're best off not picking a deity at all. Playing a character who began his career neutral-aligned and later switched to a good alignment is a very easy solution.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Other than DMM Persist, you can also get a lot of milage for buffing with DMM Chain Spell, which is normally a +3 spell level equivelant. With Reach Spell, you can buff the whole party with GMW/MV/etc... making it a very viable choice. Also, you have the option to DMM Chain various cure spells for much less expense.