I'm sorry but, you're dead.

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

I am currently polling my group in hopes of predicting the reaction to my use of Save or Die/suck/lose spells.

I am curious

how have your players reacted to you're npcs or monsters using such spells/effects?

especially, how have they reacated to FAILING on these saves?

[Callista]

By the time you're at the level that save-or-die is a feasible strategy, death is not a game-ender; it's more like a major injury. Your cleric can resurrect you, and you lose a level unless you can spring for true resurrection; so the most you get out of it tends to be a drop in power, a vague memory of the afterlife, and a desire to pulverize whatever killed you.

Save-or-die on the part of the villains isn't what I'd prefer to do--not because it's unfair (it's perfectly fair and actually not that big a deal for most PCs), but because succeeding or failing at the save comes down to dumb luck, rather than strategy, and that's not the kind of battle I prefer. You can only jack up your saves so far; and even then you might still roll a one.

But save-or-die is still way better than rust monsters (or similar) and Mordenkainen's Disjunction. You can come back from the dead, but where are you going to find another Holy Avenger?

[Eldariel]

greetings playgrounders,

I am currently polling my group in hopes of predicting the reaction to my use of Save or Die/suck/lose spells.

I am curious

how have your players reacted to you're npcs or monsters using such spells/effects?

especially, how have they reacated to FAILING on these saves?

Well, from player's point of view: Last time I died to a Death Knight's aura (rolled 2, needed 3 to survive), all I had to say was "Really." And then I was dead. It was kinda anti-climatic since it was an aura and thus nothing was done; when a Wizard casts a spell it's much more epic but when you just walk somewhere and fall over dead, that kinda sucks.

Though if the characters have access to some luck powers, such as some caster having the spell "Alter Fortune" or someone owning a Luckblade or being a Luck-domain Cleric or such, it immediately becomes more epic. Not the fact that the death is less likely but that, if you do die, the killer earned the kill. And, of course, as death is infinitely reversible in the game, it's never the end of the world.


But yeah, my own reaction was "...sucks" that time. I do remember multiple "Oh SHI-!" moments though, like the one time a Death Giant took the soul of one of our party members (and we weren't allowed to kill said creature due to certain agreement we had made earlier making it...tricky to release the soul), every time Deck of Many Things has happened, and so on.

[Stormageddon]

greetings playgrounders,

I am currently polling my group in hopes of predicting the reaction to my use of Save or Die/suck/lose spells.

I am curious

how have your players reacted to you're npcs or monsters using such spells/effects?

especially, how have they reacated to FAILING on these saves?

Don't use save or die spells on your players. No good can come from it.

[Fax Celestis]

Don't use save or die spells on your players. No good can come from it.

So the DM isn't allowed access to all the weapons the players have?

[holywhippet]

Or just use save or suck spells - not ones that will cause instant death.

Even then, there is a reason why "Batman" type spellcasters are considered overpowered.

[Eldariel]

Don't use save or die spells on your players. No good can come from it.

Last I checked, part of the thrill of the game, especially the words "Make a Fort-save" or "Make a Will-save" was the fact that you could just plain die to one die roll. Why remove the excitement from that? Besides, it's not like it were impossible to protect yourself from the save-effects (there are spells and items for that), or alter the die roll (there are items, feats and stuff for that). And if you do die, you can still be revived.

Save-or-dies are honestly a natural extension of attacks; some attacks kill you. HP are only one defense, one that save-or-dies bypass. They hit other defenses. A character can die to anything from ability drain to Finger of Death, after all. That's good for the game.

[holywhippet]

Yes, it's part of the game - but games are made to be fun. There isn't much fun in spending weeks, months or even years playing with a character only to have them dead and gone forever just because you didn't roll well enough on your save.

[Zaq]

I had a GM once who basically would take out (either kill or totally incapacitate) an average of one PC in the first round of combat in pretty much every encounter. Sometimes it was a generic SoD, sometimes it was an ambush-style enemy, sometimes it was something else, but I'll tell you, it wasn't much fun. Not so much because bad things would happen to my character (I have no problem with hard-won injuries and battle scars, after all) but because it felt like "eenie, meenie, minie . . . you. You don't get to play tonight." And that sucked. If I'm spending my free time playing the game, I expect to, you know, play.

I don't mind fighting and dying. That can be a very good session. I DO mind not fighting and dying. If using SoDs means that your pal Joe just may as well have not bothered to come to the session, you're doing it wrong.

If you must use SoDs (or similarly incapacitating attacks), use them at the END of the session, not the beginning. Yes, I'm aware that it makes good tactical sense to try to neutralize your foe immediately (and this goes for PCs and enemies alike), but still, give Joe a reason to be here.

If you have a good group who can handle this sort of thing with maturity, you can let any player who gets killed or incapacitated play on the side of Team Monster for the rest of the session. Say "OK, Joe, you're dead, so next round you'll be in control of Baddy McEvil's pet werewolf, the one that's currently grappling your Cleric. Here's the cheat sheet." You do have to have players who can handle playing a bad guy faithfully, of course. No going "Oops, I dropped my really nice sword right at your feet, Mr. Warblade! Whoops, I just provoked AoOs from the whole team trying to get over here! Uh-oh, I accidentally included Mr. McEvil in my breath weapon's AoE, tee hee!" But if your players are mature enough to play monsters as though they're, you know, on the other side, I find it's a good solution. Sure, it sucks if your character dies, but what sucks more is being told that you don't get to play tonight.

[Eldariel]

Yes, it's part of the game - but games are made to be fun. There isn't much fun in spending weeks, months or even years playing with a character only to have them dead and gone forever just because you didn't roll well enough on your save.

You wouldn't play D&D if you weren't prepared for your character to die. Besides, it's D&D. Death isn't permanent. And that would apply to any method of dying; are you honestly telling me monsters aren't allowed to kill PCs ever ever? What's the point of even having rules at that point? The whole point of rules is to adjudicate the effects of events; if the outcome is predetermined they're unnecessary.

[big teej]

for the record, this isn't something I'm going to spring on my players before its level appropriate.

I'm just curious how you've seen people react.

[Fax Celestis]

dead and gone forever

Forever (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) is a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) very (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) short (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) time indeed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm).

[Telonius]

I almost* never use save or die spells against my players until they have some method of reviving the dead character. Around 9th level or so if they're working without the safety net of stronger friendly NPCs; around 6th if they have a friendly Cleric they can turn to (and are willing to spend the diamond dust). After that? Magic is dangerous, and they better start treating it as such.

*Exception: if one of the players really wants to kill off his current character and start with a new one, going out in a blaze of glory and failed Fort saves is perfectly acceptable.

[Doc Roc]

Forever (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) is a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) very (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) short (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) time indeed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm).

There's also a revivify for normal people, and more esoteric stuff like the save-game trick. You know a game is hard when the save game trick is recommended by the GM.

[Curmudgeon]

At high levels, death is a tax. It costs gp and time to come back, depleting the PC's resources. It's got a very significant down side, but it's not actually the end of anything important.

[true_shinken]

There's also a revivify for normal people, and more esoteric stuff like the save-game trick. You know a game is hard when the save game trick is recommended by the GM.

Bards and divine casters are 'normal people' now? :smallamused:

[Zaq]

I'm repeating myself, but I think people are focusing too much on the "whelp, now I'm dead" aspect of SoDs. Yes, you can come back from –10 with few issues by mid-high levels, but what about for the rest of the evening? It's not the time spent dead in-character that bothers me. It's the time spent dead out-of-character. Any thoughts on that aspect of it? Yes, with a good group you can have fun watching your friends, but faced with three hours of combat and dungeoneering and no character, I'd still be tempted to break out Pokémon or something.

[big teej]

what's this 'save game' trick?

[Cog]

what's this 'save game' trick?
Scroll down a little here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10262.0;wap2).

[Eldariel]

I'm repeating myself, but I think people are focusing too much on the "whelp, now I'm dead" aspect of SoDs. Yes, you can come back from –10 with few issues by mid-high levels, but what about for the rest of the evening? It's not the time spent dead in-character that bothers me. It's the time spent dead out-of-character. Any thoughts on that aspect of it? Yes, with a good group you can have fun watching your friends, but faced with three hours of combat and dungeoneering and no character, I'd still be tempted to break out Pokémon or something.

We generally have the dead player run some NPCs (if there are any alongside the party, those; if not, hostiles or randoms or such) or some such, if the death seems to last for an extended period of time. Basically just assistant-DM. Or do manifestations as a ghost in dreams and stuff. Those are always fun.

[Ormur]

The BBEG's favourite spell in a campaign I'm playing in is bloody implosion, goodbye you're dead. The first time it was used the druid made the save and we got the heck out, the second time my wizard character just died but the druid cast last breath and then ditched the battle and my character was captured.

It's not very fun when you fail that save but we knew this would be a life-or-death campaign and if it's not a TPK you can revive your team-mates, even without level loss like in my case.

I once coup-de-graced a character as a DM where he had almost no chance of reacting. Although that was partly the players' fault it's not something I'm going to try to repeat. The player took it well since they realized they made some bad decisions.

I'd at least try to limit the use of save-or-dies to important higher-level battles or to cases where not using them would break verisimilitude.

[big teej]

nice little idea, that save game trick....

just one problem...
we don't use psionics.
yet.

[holywhippet]

You wouldn't play D&D if you weren't prepared for your character to die. Besides, it's D&D. Death isn't permanent. And that would apply to any method of dying; are you honestly telling me monsters aren't allowed to kill PCs ever ever? What's the point of even having rules at that point? The whole point of rules is to adjudicate the effects of events; if the outcome is predetermined they're unnecessary.

Raise dead and the like might not be feasible for a party at the time of death. They might not have the cash, might not have a high enough level cleric or have access to one, the character's body might not be fit for raise dead and requires ressurection instead.

[Doc Roc]

Raise dead and the like might not be feasible for a party at the time of death. They might not have the cash, might not have a high enough level cleric or have access to one, the character's body might not be fit for raise dead and requires ressurection instead.

Revivify doesn't mind.

[Jack Zander]

That save game trick just inspired a campaign idea in me. The party uses the trick to send their psycrystal 10 days into the future. However, on the 8th day a massive magical disaster destroys all living things. The psycrystal hops back in to find a shattered world, void of all life. Presumably, the party is alive when the event occurs, so they remember that the skies turned dark, the air cold yet their bodies warm, then immense pain rushed through them as they were ripped apart and disintegrated along with everything else around them.

Now they have 8 days to find out what happened and how to stop it, but they are going to need much longer than a mere 8 days to gather all the information. They best make good use of that save game trick for a while...

[Doc Roc]

That save game trick just inspired a campaign idea in me. The party uses the trick to send their psycrystal 10 days into the future. However, on the 8th day a massive magical disaster destroys all living things. The psycrystal hops back in to find a shattered world, void of all life. Presumably, the party is alive when the event occurs, so they remember that the skies turned dark, the air cold yet their bodies warm, then immense pain rushed through them as they were ripped apart and disintegrated along with everything else around them.

Now they have 8 days to find out what happened and how to stop it, but they are going to need much longer than a mere 8 days to gather all the information. They best make good use of that save game trick for a while...

I want to play this.

[Eldariel]

That save game trick just inspired a campaign idea in me. The party uses the trick to send their psycrystal 10 days into the future. However, on the 8th day a massive magical disaster destroys all living things. The psycrystal hops back in to find a shattered world, void of all life. Presumably, the party is alive when the event occurs, so they remember that the skies turned dark, the air cold yet their bodies warm, then immense pain rushed through them as they were ripped apart and disintegrated along with everything else around them.

Now they have 8 days to find out what happened and how to stop it, but they are going to need much longer than a mere 8 days to gather all the information. They best make good use of that save game trick for a while...

This is why 3.X is the best system ever.

[Shpadoinkle]

(I have no problem with hard-won injuries and battle scars, after all) but because it felt like "eenie, meenie, minie . . . you. You don't get to play tonight." And that sucked. If I'm spending my free time playing the game, I expect to, you know, play.


This. This is why I hate save-or-die/suck spells as a player. If I get hit with one, that means I can't do anything for the rest of the fight, which could easily be another hour.

Games are hard enough to organize and actually get everyone present and focused on playing, there's no need to arbitrarily say "well, I know we've been planning this for two weeks and we only have a few hours to play this evening, but you're not going to be able to do anything at all for about a quarter of it, and there's nothing you can do about it."

As a DM, I don't throw SoDs at the players- the players are welcome to use them, but the NPCs don't. They have other advantages that the PC's don't have.

[Doc Roc]

This is why 3.X is the best system ever.

Help me put this in Legend, Eld?

Got vetoed.

[Eldariel]

Help me put this in Legend, Eld?

Well, there are no Psionics yet. Seems easy enough :smallbiggrin:

[holywhippet]

That save game trick just inspired a campaign idea in me. The party uses the trick to send their psycrystal 10 days into the future. However, on the 8th day a massive magical disaster destroys all living things. The psycrystal hops back in to find a shattered world, void of all life. Presumably, the party is alive when the event occurs, so they remember that the skies turned dark, the air cold yet their bodies warm, then immense pain rushed through them as they were ripped apart and disintegrated along with everything else around them.

Now they have 8 days to find out what happened and how to stop it, but they are going to need much longer than a mere 8 days to gather all the information. They best make good use of that save game trick for a while...

I've heard of another campaign start up that was about as interesting as this (didn't play in it as it didn't match my schedule). The players didn't make their characters, they turn up and were each assigned one. They all wake up together in a cave with no memories at all - not even of their character class. They have to work out what they are actually capable of during play.

[Epsilon Rose]

My opinion on this is a bit tricky and I'm not sure I how well I can express it (I'm also not very sure of it). I know the one time I actually saw a save or die go off the player quite the campaign, but he's also a bit on the winy self important side so ymmv.

Here's the thing, I feel PCs and NPCs should be shopping at the same store. The PCs should be better at using their stuff and maybe have a larger account, but if it's a valid tactic for a pc then it should be a valid tactic for an npc. That said SoDs feel cheep. You failed 1 role and you dropped from full health to dead and the tactics you or your opponent were using or how well you were fighting is completely irrelevant; it's even worse if you're not in a position to be reinforcing that roll (like if it's a low stat with a bad progression and you're not in a position to have save boosting items or abilities).

I have less of a problem with most SoL/SoS abilities since depending on your tactics you can mitigate most of their effectiveness and if not your teammates can start employing different tactics to either stop the effect or by you enough time to take care of it on your own. The fact that it still takes more than one action for you to actually die is also nice. It feels like it took more effort that way.

[arguskos]

Help me put this in Legend, Eld?

Got vetoed.
Damn. I'd have been every kind of all over this one.

By the way, still need a hand on the Gearsong? If so, I'll make some time this weekend to throw a few ideas at you.

[Doc Roc]

Damn. I'd have been every kind of all over this one.

By the way, still need a hand on the Gearsong? If so, I'll make some time this weekend to throw a few ideas at you.

I does! I'd like that.

[Eldariel]

Got vetoed.

Aww. Should we go banging doors?

[Doc Roc]

Aww. Should we go banging doors?

No, compromise was that we could have a Ghola system, just not a system by a certain Tleilaxu_Ghola. :)

[Eldariel]

No, compromise was that we could have a Ghola system, just not a system by a certain Tleilaxu_Ghola. :)

Oh... I can live with that!

[Doc Roc]

Oh... I can live with that!

We'll hash it out together sometime soon, but it's been bugging me that we have a peaky distribution for lethality in some senses, and we need a mechanism to alleviate that. When I think crazy prepared, I get this image of a vast chamber, hung full of empty PowerSuits that have certain bat-like stylings, and in the center, a single pillar of glass. There's a shape inside, that might be a man, or it might be a symbol.

[Eldariel]

We'll hash it out together sometime soon, but it's been bugging me that we have a peaky distribution for lethality in some senses, and we need a mechanism to alleviate that. When I think crazy prepared, I get this image of a vast chamber, hung full of empty PowerSuits that have certain bat-like stylings, and in the center, a single pillar of glass. There's a shape inside, that might be a man, or it might be a symbol.

Hm. I suppose a mechanism other than expecting players to make themselves immune to everything is welcome in a system where players cannot make themselves immune to everything.

[Doc Roc]

Hm. I suppose a mechanism other than expecting players to make themselves immune to everything is welcome in a system where players cannot make themselves immune to everything.

Funny how that works, and it relates cleanly to our topic.

The counter to 3.x SoDs is to be immune to death effects, generally, of the various types. This is why we have a problem, because a lot of this stuff falls into three categories:


Trivial
Dangerous enough to be really unpleasant, requiring a jack'd save, or an immunity.
An Obscenity From The Before Times, He Who Is In All Things A Crime Against God In His Heaven, Whom You Just Failed A Save Against. Don't ask the DC. Your flesh is scattered across the starless seas. It has been a honor and a pleasure.

[TurtleKing]

Well lets see the last save or die that one of the DMs used I actually volunteered my character for it. Here is the story spoilered for length.

The party is in a pirate campaign set in the carribean at level 6. We are raiding a merchant ship. My character being a baby Black Dragon Duskblade likes to go ahead of the party underwater and attack from the other side in a pincer move. My character uses his breath attack which just so happens damages the ballista so it can't be fired. Next round I use a CL 4 Burning Hands from a wand on the sails to keep it from getting away. During this time the rest of the party manages to board and start fighting the merchant ship crew. Since our battles last only a round or two most were dead in the first round. Only two remained with one being an Assassin in hiding. The next round he can use his Death Attack, which the DM said this out loud. Hearing this with no confidence the others could survive I basically offered my character for the attack saying mine could survive it. The ways I can survive that attack are: Gemstone of Light Fortification, Fortitude save of +10, full hp being in the fifties, and 19 Constitution. So I get hit with the attack and made my save against the Death Attack but not the poison. The Gemstone did not negate so it also being a critical hit took out over half my health. The part about the Constitution is because the weapon is also coated with poison that can deal upto 18 CON damage. Thanks to a Cure Moderate Wounds from a Scroll and a really good heal check my character survived.

Edit: Spelling.

[Eldariel]

An Obscenity From The Before Times, He Who Is In All Things A Crime Against God In His Heaven, Whom You Just Failed A Save Against. Don't ask the DC. Your flesh is scattered across the starless seas. It has been a honor and a pleasure.


You can always take 20 the first time; we have the means, after all. Oh, and pray you aren't using the epic rules about natural 20s "only" being +30, 'cause... Of course, considering what you're meddling with, chances are that only serves to Piss It Off And Make Your Fate All The More Gory.

[Draz74]

That save game trick just inspired a campaign idea in me. The party uses the trick to send their psycrystal 10 days into the future. However, on the 8th day a massive magical disaster destroys all living things. The psycrystal hops back in to find a shattered world, void of all life. Presumably, the party is alive when the event occurs, so they remember that the skies turned dark, the air cold yet their bodies warm, then immense pain rushed through them as they were ripped apart and disintegrated along with everything else around them.

Now they have 8 days to find out what happened and how to stop it, but they are going to need much longer than a mere 8 days to gather all the information. They best make good use of that save game trick for a while...


I want to play this.

Yeah. Normally I'm not a fan of TO stuff at all ... but this is an awesome idea.

I'm thinking I might need to put a "save game" Ritual into CRE8, just so this can happen there. :smallsmile:

[Doc Roc]

You can always take 20 the first time; we have the means, after all. Oh, and pray you aren't using the epic rules about natural 20s "only" being +30, 'cause... Of course, considering what you're meddling with, chances are that only serves to Piss It Off And Make Your Fate All The More Gory.

Meddle not in the affairs of wizards, for worse things than dragons are a shapeshift away.

[Corlindale]

I don't mind instant death spells, as long as we're in a campaign with access to resurrection spells it's not really a major problem - it takes you out of the encounter, sure, but in most cases the group will then stop everything they are doing to get to a temple or revive on the spot.

We usually just laugh about the randomness. Like the time when our trapfinder botched a Disable Device check on that Wail of the Banshee trap and three of us just died, followed by the image of our poor bard spending a week dragging three corpses back to town (I guess it served us right for not standing at a sufficient distance when we knew the trap had an aura of strong Necromancy about it.)

And as has been previously mentioned, it really adds a thrill to the dreaded "make a fort save".

[ILM]

I know this wasn't a request for house rules, but there's a couple of simple options you can take if you want to soften the pain of a SoD:
- make Raise Dead not make you lose a level (computer-gamey, kind of makes True Res pointless, tends to be more useful for PCs than NPCs)
- declare that instead of killing you, SoDs put you at -1 (or any other minus number depending on the lethality you're looking for; -9 makes things pretty dicey for the team if they want to save their buffy)

Now I totally want to play a campaign that starts with "You got a glimpse of the future and, well, 8 days from now there isn't one anymore. Good luck!"

[nedz]

I don't like SoDs, even as a player.
One way they can be used against a party well though is to target an NPC. Makes them sit up and pay attention, but still not miss out on the action.

[Tyndmyr]

Don't use save or die spells on your players. No good can come from it.

Use them, but carefully. Don't cast them unless you have a plan for if it works. I use them rarely...they're like seasoning. You certainly wouldn't want them all the time, but used in very small amounts, they can spice up things by adding variety.

I certainly note that players pay attention when SoDs are cast...even if they're bad SoDs, like phantasmal killer. They will generally kill said person with extreme prejudice. Much more drama around the roll, and it makes save-pumping actually useful.


Yes, it's part of the game - but games are made to be fun. There isn't much fun in spending weeks, months or even years playing with a character only to have them dead and gone forever just because you didn't roll well enough on your save.

Eh, if you spent years on a character, you probably have some way to bring them back from the grave. Sure, you may take a level hit, or lose gold or what not...but it's not the end of the line.

As for the rest of the evening bit...getting rezzed shouldn't take the entire evening. Oh sure, you might have missed the fight, but if you only do one encounter per session, you either have very short sessions or very slow fights. Rolling up a new char takes a bit longer...but my players frequently have backup character concepts in mind. Once you get good at the game, a new char generally can be done in an hour or less, even with a high degree of optimization. Some char concepts at some levels....much, much faster.

[Yukitsu]

SoDs are a lesser version of mordenkainen's disjunction. You'd better have built a way out of the mess you're now in if you decide to pull these on the players.

[Otherworld Odd]

In my experience, it hasn't been that bad. True, your character dies but there's always hiring a local cleric to resurrect you or something. Hell, my level 2 party sprung for a reincarnation for a dead party member. Level *2*. Sure, it's not ideal but it brings your dude back to life. They could have afforded another spell that didn't change the race but they chose reincarnation so they could spring for the spells to get the level drain fixed.

[TroubleBrewing]

That save game trick just inspired a campaign idea in me. The party uses the trick to send their psycrystal 10 days into the future. However, on the 8th day a massive magical disaster destroys all living things. The psycrystal hops back in to find a shattered world, void of all life. Presumably, the party is alive when the event occurs, so they remember that the skies turned dark, the air cold yet their bodies warm, then immense pain rushed through them as they were ripped apart and disintegrated along with everything else around them.

Now they have 8 days to find out what happened and how to stop it, but they are going to need much longer than a mere 8 days to gather all the information. They best make good use of that save game trick for a while...


I want to play this.

Doc, you already have... It's called 'Majora's Mask'. :smalltongue:

But this does sound epic.

[Fax Celestis]

SoDs are a lesser version of mordenkainen's disjunction. You'd better have built a way out of the mess you're now in if you decide to pull these on the players.

...what "mess"?

[Tyndmyr]

That campaign sounds epic. Considering I was having a discussion about a Groundhog Day campaign not all that long ago...this sounds like the best of setups.

I'll agree that SoDs and MD can create a mess if used carelessly...but with careful consideration and planning, they can be well used too.

[Frozen_Feet]

When my players lose characters, they whine, bitch, moan, cry and try to bribe me with candies. I tear apart the unlucky character's sheet and throw it in trash. They roll new characters, and the game continues. :smallbiggrin:

[cfalcon]

They kick and moan!

Normally, they pool and bring the guy back from the dead. But sometimes it's just a reroll.

[Tyndmyr]

When my players lose characters, they whine, bitch, moan, cry and try to bribe me with candies. I tear apart the unlucky character's sheet and throw it in trash. They roll new characters, and the game continues. :smallbiggrin:

Candies, you say? I like your group already.

The reroll vs rez decision is mostly a level based one for my group. Once true rez isn't a huge hit, it tends to become to go-to answer. The griping also slows at that point.

[Yukitsu]

...what "mess"?

Depending on how relevant characters are to the plot, a pure random death tends to discourage continued use of that character, especially if they are being punished for what was largely no mistake on their part either way via a lost level, you may have to reorganize your adventure somewhat, and most DMs handle it with about as much tact and grace as a linebacker doing figure skating. That being the tacit admission that the story is about the world and the antagonist, and not the players, since evidently, PCs are easily replaceable.

Death of player characters is fine, but generally SoD one rounds, no tactics are the most discouraging to a player, whereas a long, drawn out battle that is edge of the razor close makes that character more fun, not less so.

[cfalcon]

In the final battle of the last campaign I was a player in, we had 5 player deaths total, 3 of which we could recover from during the fight (6 if you count our summoned silver dragon ally, who was merely banished back to her misty home for a month).

[EnnPeeCee]

Somewhat related:

I had a DM use an assassin NPC against us when we were around level 8-9. Killed one of us with no warning. We as the players were pissed. (even more so when we discovered that you can't do a death attack with a ranged weapon like had happened)

Later in that campaign we faced off against a bbg who used improved invisibility, hold person, and tried to coup-de-grace. He ended up not getting any of us, which really made the DM mad. We were just confused as to why he wanted us dead so badly.

I think it comes down to the whole idea of being a DM. It is the DM's job to challenge, not oppose the players. If the players are equipped to defend against SoDs, then they would be a good challenge for them. But if the players have no good means to fight it, its just the DM deciding when a player dies.

And I'm not just saying that they should only be used when they have little to no effect on the players. That's not challenging the players. They should have some sort of lead-up, like a warning that the enemy possess the ability before the fight. They shouldn't be used as the first attack of an enemy before the players have time to react (unless of course the players are equipped to handle that sort of thing, like I said before).

Honestly, I don't like SoDs as a whole, and don't use them as either a player or a DM. But that's just me. I think it really just comes down to the players and whether, gameplay stats AND personal reaction, can handle it. But I guess that's a given for pretty much everything.

Now that I think about it, what I'm saying is: I don't know.

That didn't help at all did it?

Edit:
Hows this, IMO the DM should except everything they send against the players to succeed, and be surprised (and maybe happy) when the players foil you. When you use SoDs against players, you shouldn't be surprised when your players die.

[Doc Roc]

Depending on how relevant characters are to the plot, a pure random death tends to discourage continued use of that character, especially if they are being punished for what was largely no mistake on their part either way via a lost level, you may have to reorganize your adventure somewhat, and most DMs handle it with about as much tact and grace as a linebacker doing figure skating. That being the tacit admission that the story is about the world and the antagonist, and not the players, since evidently, PCs are easily replaceable.


This was quite elegantly put!

[DM_for_once]

That save game trick just inspired a campaign idea in me. The party uses the trick to send their psycrystal 10 days into the future. However, on the 8th day a massive magical disaster destroys all living things. The psycrystal hops back in to find a shattered world, void of all life. Presumably, the party is alive when the event occurs, so they remember that the skies turned dark, the air cold yet their bodies warm, then immense pain rushed through them as they were ripped apart and disintegrated along with everything else around them.

Now they have 8 days to find out what happened and how to stop it, but they are going to need much longer than a mere 8 days to gather all the information. They best make good use of that save game trick for a while...

This sounds like fun, but all I can think of is Zelda. (The Mask of Majora, or Majora's Mask, or whatever it was, I'm too lazy to google it right now.)
EDIT: Finished reading the thread and saw that someone else already pointed it out.:smallredface:

But yeah, on to the relevant part. I know that for me the possibility of death is part of what makes it fun, and I've never had a character brought back from the dead. Then again I also really like character generation and coming up with what to play next, so it's probably just me. (I also tend to have a back-up or two ready so I never wind up sitting an entire session out. And even when I don't I can whip up a character that'll be fun to play pretty fast. Er, the cruch at least; backstory takes me a while sometimes.)

[Fax Celestis]

Depending on how relevant characters are to the plot, a pure random death tends to discourage continued use of that character, especially if they are being punished for what was largely no mistake on their part either way via a lost level, you may have to reorganize your adventure somewhat, and most DMs handle it with about as much tact and grace as a linebacker doing figure skating. That being the tacit admission that the story is about the world and the antagonist, and not the players, since evidently, PCs are easily replaceable.

Death of player characters is fine, but generally SoD one rounds, no tactics are the most discouraging to a player, whereas a long, drawn out battle that is edge of the razor close makes that character more fun, not less so.

So save or dies are bad in DM's hands because all DMs are obstinate, blundering louts who have no finesse.

Remind me to introduce you to some of my old DMs sometime.

Without danger, there is no fun. And without risk, there is no danger. I personally cannot enjoy a game where the chances of me losing near zero. And if I happen to fall victim to a so-called "cheap shot" from the DM, then that is my failure as a player to take necessary precautions. Most of the time, the DM is outgunned by overzealous players who know the ins and outs of every one of their features versus their monster-of-the-week who generally runs off of core-only material and almost never has access to all the options the PCs have. Taking away the only guns that bring danger into the equation neuters the experience for me. I might as well be playing a Final Fantasy at that point for all the actual threat there is to my character.

[Doc Roc]

So save or dies are bad in DM's hands because all DMs are obstinate, blundering louts who have no finesse.

Remind me to introduce you to some of my old DMs sometime.

Without danger, there is no fun. And without risk, there is no danger. I personally cannot enjoy a game where the chances of me losing near zero. And if I happen to fall victim to a so-called "cheap shot" from the DM, then that is my failure as a player to take necessary precautions. Most of the time, the DM is outgunned by overzealous players who know the ins and outs of every one of their features versus their monster-of-the-week who generally runs off of core-only material and almost never has access to all the options the PCs have. Taking away the only guns that bring danger into the equation neuters the experience for me. I might as well be playing a Final Fantasy at that point for all the actual threat there is to my character.

Danger's different from Oops.

[Fax Celestis]

If your DM uses a save or die without meaning to kill you, then he is (a) pulling punches, which he shouldn't do; and (b) is trying to not kill you with an ability that kills you, which is sort of like trying to dry off your clothes with a garden hose instead of a laundry dryer.

[big teej]

at the risk of repeating myself (it's late, and I can't remember if I've said this)

I polled my players, and so far all of them (still waiting on an answer from 1)

once given a 'legit context' (i.e. a beholder's disintegrate beam) they all gave the answer along the lines of
"that would suck, but as long as there's a legit reason and you're not just killing me I'd be okay."


quasi-related tangent...

has anyone ever statted up "Cherubael" from the Eisenhorn book series by Dan Abnett?

I'm totally throwing him at the party, and the closer I can stay to the original the better.

[Herabec]

My opinion?

SoDs are perfectly viable for NPCs to use. By the time NPCs should be using SoD spells, players should have access to defenses against them. Like Death Ward, for instance. This is also around the time that players start gaining access to these spells - player characters are not special. They can become important, but they shouldn't be special. (Unless, of course, they're descendants of some God or other plot device.)

That said, SoDs should be used in moderation by DMs. While players can fire off one or two or a dozen a day, NPCs should only fire them off on rare occasions. Why? Not because it's annoying, but rather because keeping it moderated in such a way ensures that when an opponent uses an SoD, it's always a jaw dropping moment of 'Oh snap' between those moments of announcing the attack and the die roll, success or failure.

The look on the Warlock's face earlier tonight when I dropped a Slay Living on him is still priceless. ^_^ (Don't worry, he succeeded on his save.)

[MeeposFire]

I find SoDs very unsatisfactory. I mean if I want to play a game where you die with just one failed die roll then I will play dice. SoDs are cheap and take no skill. Anybody can kill somebody by forcing them to roll a save. Hell it is always at least a 5% chance of auto win every time with no set-up, no tactics, or even any skilled building.

Heck in one adventure I DMed there was an encounter where a cloaked man talks to the party to give them information. Thing was it was a trap as the cloaked man was a bodak (unmodified). The bodak drew back his cloak and promptly killed 5 out of the six party members in the the surprise with his killer gaze due to bad die rolls. This group would pound through really tough encounters using good tactics and teamwork but was nearly all killed in one round by one save and die. That was not climatic nor interesting. My players were obviously not pleased and I felt cheated out of trying to get victory by my own skill. Suffice to say none of us miss SoDs in our 4e games.

EDIT: How do you pull a punch with a SoD? You can't modify them. Either they save or they die it can't really be pulled back after you start casting.

[Fax Celestis]

How do you pull a punch with a SoD? You can't modify them. Either they save or they die it can't really be pulled back after you start casting.

Don't pull your punches, it cheapens the experience for the players.

[arguskos]

Don't pull your punches, it cheapens the experience for the players.
No, it cheapens it for you and others like you.

Other players and groups don't mind pulling punches or playing differently from you, and that means possibly weakening/not using SoDs. Saying anything else is being presumptuous and claiming that your way is The Only Way(tm).

Personally, I don't mind the occasional SoD. I think they make nice highlight moments. However, I do feel that, mostly for the reason Zaq brought up, that they shouldn't be mainstays or even frequently used. Not being able to be a part of the game isn't very fun, and we, my group at least, play for fun.

[Fax Celestis]

No, it cheapens it for you and others like you.

I'm sorry, I don't follow how 'commitment to your role as the game's antagonist' and 'commitment to providing a challenge' says 'my way is the only way' in any shape or form.

But the game is built partially on a mutual trust: if your players can't trust that you won't change up a monster's stats mid-fight, or (if you do like one of my old DMs did) if you have a monster just up and leave mid combat when it is winning because you're afraid of killing one of the players, you have a game that no longer has any determinable aspects by the players. What guarantee do your players have that any two orcs will have the same basic racial features? Or that two similarly built giants will have approximately the same amount of HP and AC?

[arguskos]

I'm sorry, I don't follow how 'commitment to your role as the game's antagonist' and 'commitment to providing a challenge' says 'my way is the only way' in any shape or form.
The point of my statement was that you seem to feel that DMs have a commitment to a challenge, and that others may not agree. Some groups may feel that DMs have a commitment to telling a cooperative story, and there is no place in their stories for SoDs.

There's lots of ways to do things, after all. :smallsmile: You don't pull punches, others do. Neither's wrong.

[some guy]

I feel this blogpost (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/saveordie.html) of The Alexandrian can add to the discussion. His proposed solution to SoDs of ability damage is interesting, but might be too much bookkeeping.

[Yukitsu]

I'm sorry, I don't follow how 'commitment to your role as the game's antagonist' and 'commitment to providing a challenge' says 'my way is the only way' in any shape or form.

But the game is built partially on a mutual trust: if your players can't trust that you won't change up a monster's stats mid-fight, or (if you do like one of my old DMs did) if you have a monster just up and leave mid combat when it is winning because you're afraid of killing one of the players, you have a game that no longer has any determinable aspects by the players. What guarantee do your players have that any two orcs will have the same basic racial features? Or that two similarly built giants will have approximately the same amount of HP and AC?

We're less saying to pull the SoD mid fight, I'm more saying just flat out, don't let your NPCs use them, or at the very least, incredibly sparingly, and ideally both sparingly and near the end of combat when they are on their last legs anyway.

Spamming SoDs is perfectly fine and legitimate in a pure dungeon crawl where the plot contribution by any one character is completely nill, and characterization isn't as important as combat. But in the event that a player actually enjoys playing that character, but is repeatedly discouraged from continuing to do so (through the mechanism of mostly random death) he probably won't, and that hurts the collaborative story telling process.


Without danger, there is no fun. And without risk, there is no danger. I personally cannot enjoy a game where the chances of me losing near zero. And if I happen to fall victim to a so-called "cheap shot" from the DM, then that is my failure as a player to take necessary precautions. Most of the time, the DM is outgunned by overzealous players who know the ins and outs of every one of their features versus their monster-of-the-week who generally runs off of core-only material and almost never has access to all the options the PCs have. Taking away the only guns that bring danger into the equation neuters the experience for me. I might as well be playing a Final Fantasy at that point for all the actual threat there is to my character.

There's a difference in tension between one that builds up over time, and ends only very closely, and the tension of "heads you win, tails you lose". Especially if you have to flip more than once. Once you can guess that you'll end up with 10 or more coin flips, it's less a question that you will lose, it's more a question of "when" and "why bother."

[Quietus]

I'm sorry, I don't follow how 'commitment to your role as the game's antagonist' and 'commitment to providing a challenge' says 'my way is the only way' in any shape or form.

I think the point arguskos is getting at is that while you suggested that everyone should be willing to SoD their PC's, at least occasionally, when you said "Don't pull your punches, it cheapens the experience for the players.", others don't necessarily agree.

For example, I'm not a big fan of instant death. Right now, arguskos is in a PbP game I'm running. They fought a shadowy two-headed lizard a while back; a Dusk Beast from the Manual of the Planes, if you're familiar, though I modified it slightly. Now, if they were to go back to where they fought it before, and ran into an upgraded version of it that has a Wail of the Banshee howl special attack, but they had no warning before encountering it, and it was just a random encounter? That would feel a bit cheap, at least to me - and I'd be willing to be the players wouldn't enjoy it all that much, either.

Now, if I give them hints that hey, this creature's out there, it's been said to announce death with its howl, or it eats souls, or something like that, then yeah. I'm willing to drop the Howl ability on them, because now they've got warning. It goes from "I had to roll a fort save and failed" to "Okay, we really should've thought this through". Or if they go after a Necromancer from the Mage's guild.. well, they know what they're getting into. If the players start throwing around a lot of save or dies themselves, then I increase my willingness to throw them back, but I'm not just going to bend them over for one poor roll. That's not what I find fun, nor do I believe my players would enjoy it.

[Fax Celestis]

I think the point arguskos is getting at is that while you suggested that everyone should be willing to SoD their PC's, at least occasionally, when you said "Don't pull your punches, it cheapens the experience for the players.", others don't necessarily agree.

For example, I'm not a big fan of instant death. Right now, arguskos is in a PbP game I'm running. They fought a shadowy two-headed lizard a while back; a Dusk Beast from the Manual of the Planes, if you're familiar, though I modified it slightly. Now, if they were to go back to where they fought it before, and ran into an upgraded version of it that has a Wail of the Banshee howl special attack, but they had no warning before encountering it, and it was just a random encounter? That would feel a bit cheap, at least to me - and I'd be willing to be the players wouldn't enjoy it all that much, either.

Now, if I give them hints that hey, this creature's out there, it's been said to announce death with its howl, or it eats souls, or something like that, then yeah. I'm willing to drop the Howl ability on them, because now they've got warning. It goes from "I had to roll a fort save and failed" to "Okay, we really should've thought this through". Or if they go after a Necromancer from the Mage's guild.. well, they know what they're getting into. If the players start throwing around a lot of save or dies themselves, then I increase my willingness to throw them back, but I'm not just going to bend them over for one poor roll. That's not what I find fun, nor do I believe my players would enjoy it.
That's all well and good, but you're missing the point: you've already indicated you've modified the basic creature to your own ends. What I mean by "Don't pull your punches" is that any given opponent should use any and all tools at its immediate disposal. If you find SoD to be "cheap", then don't give them to NPC spellcasters and don't field monsters with SoDs (replacing abilities as necessary, even).

The opposition to the PCs are villains: most of the time, these are not people known for their sense of ethics or fairness and who are accustomed to taking cheap shots. Further, and even departing the scope of SoD/SoL, "pulling punches" includes things like fudging damage down because you don't want one of your players to die. PCs are adventurers, and they live a dangerous life in a dangerous profession, taking dangerous risks. Without danger, there is no real conflict, no real game to be played: you might as well sit together and tell stories. Not that doing so is to be denigrated: far from it. But if you're going to play a game wherein luck and randomness (in this case, from the dice) is a factor--and a rather large one, at that--then the least you can do is to let the cards (or dice, I suppose) fall as they may.

[MeeposFire]

Personally I find SoDs cheapen the combat. There is no skill in using them or defending them. It turns the game into a percentage and an unfun one for me at that. I don't pull punches in my games (since my previous players liked it that way) and if I want to challenge them I would try to defeat them using solid tactics and dangerous attacks forcing the players to change their tactics and feeling the panic when they are pushed to the limits. If I had to have them in a game I would prefer a more 4e style SoD where if you fail you are knocked to -1 HP and increase the amount of damage you can take while in negative hp this way you are useless in combat but you can still come back and contribute if somebody can get to you and you still can die in the meantime (thus causing there to be suspense which is noticeably lacking in SoDs since they end so quickly).

[Tyndmyr]

So save or dies are bad in DM's hands because all DMs are obstinate, blundering louts who have no finesse.

Remind me to introduce you to some of my old DMs sometime.

Without danger, there is no fun. And without risk, there is no danger. I personally cannot enjoy a game where the chances of me losing near zero. And if I happen to fall victim to a so-called "cheap shot" from the DM, then that is my failure as a player to take necessary precautions. Most of the time, the DM is outgunned by overzealous players who know the ins and outs of every one of their features versus their monster-of-the-week who generally runs off of core-only material and almost never has access to all the options the PCs have. Taking away the only guns that bring danger into the equation neuters the experience for me. I might as well be playing a Final Fantasy at that point for all the actual threat there is to my character.

While I approve of the general challenge & danger speech, I disagree with your assessment of the typical GM. It is...fairly rare for the GM to have access to less options than the PC has. Do they not have access to all the same sources? I've never seen a game in which the DM was given more limited sources than the PCs, though I've seen the opposite plenty. In addition, most DMs I've seen have been at least decent in terms of knowledge of the game. Perhaps not best in group, but at least solid. It's pretty rare to make the new guy the DM.

And DMs have a bottomless supply of potential opponents. Feh. I don't see a problem with using SoDs carefully....but I disagree that SoDs are required to challenge or endanger PCs.


I find SoDs very unsatisfactory. I mean if I want to play a game where you die with just one failed die roll then I will play dice. SoDs are cheap and take no skill. Anybody can kill somebody by forcing them to roll a save. Hell it is always at least a 5% chance of auto win every time with no set-up, no tactics, or even any skilled building.

A. It's not always at least a 5% chance. Off the top of my head, legendary leader allows auto-pass of saves, there's a luck feat to not die once/day, and another luck feat to treat 1s on saves as nat 20s.

So, no, definitely not always a 5% chance. And that's before we get to such obvious tactics as death ward.

For SoDs to be worth anything, they require set-up, tactics, and skilled building. If SoDs fail...you typically get absolutely nothing at all, putting you behind in the fight. They are single-target until quite late game, and some SoDs(phantasmal killer) are traps. To be proficient at killing with SoDs, you need to build a character for it, same as with anything else.

But yeah...you wouldn't cast an SoD unless you were prepared for the target to fail their save and die. That's what they do. It's their sole purpose. I don't know why punch pulling is desirable. Only use them when you want the effect they produce as a possibility.

I would agree that tossing SoDs at your player with no warning whatsoever, when they lack counters to them, is probably bad form...but imagine, say, a henchman of the bbeg that routinely uses SoDs. It signals to the players that here is something different...and dangerous. They can and should prepare for such a fight, and might well die if they trust to luck. This is at it should be.

[Quietus]

That's all well and good, but you're missing the point: you've already indicated you've modified the basic creature to your own ends. What I mean by "Don't pull your punches" is that any given opponent should use any and all tools at its immediate disposal. If you find SoD to be "cheap", then don't give them to NPC spellcasters and don't field monsters with SoDs (replacing abilities as necessary, even).

The opposition to the PCs are villains: most of the time, these are not people known for their sense of ethics or fairness and who are accustomed to taking cheap shots. Further, and even departing the scope of SoD/SoL, "pulling punches" includes things like fudging damage down because you don't want one of your players to die. PCs are adventurers, and they live a dangerous life in a dangerous profession, taking dangerous risks. Without danger, there is no real conflict, no real game to be played: you might as well sit together and tell stories. Not that doing so is to be denigrated: far from it. But if you're going to play a game wherein luck and randomness (in this case, from the dice) is a factor--and a rather large one, at that--then the least you can do is to let the cards (or dice, I suppose) fall as they may.


Leaving aside the issue of fudging dice and damage, since that's been hashed over plenty of times..

In this case, let's say I put the PCs in an encounter with a Wizard. Let's assume that it's established that they are, in fact, villains. Are you suggesting that since they're "not known for their sense of ethics or fairness", and that they're "accustomed to taking cheap shots", it's wrong of me to not give them save or die spells known? I mean, they ARE wizards, after all, and it's as easy as scribing a scroll into their spellbook. It seems like your position suggests that I should, at least part of the time, include spellcasters capable of throwing save or die effects in encounters, even if it isn't something I've established as being really plot significant.

[Tyndmyr]

Leaving aside the issue of fudging dice and damage, since that's been hashed over plenty of times..

In this case, let's say I put the PCs in an encounter with a Wizard. Let's assume that it's established that they are, in fact, villains. Are you suggesting that since they're "not known for their sense of ethics or fairness", and that they're "accustomed to taking cheap shots", it's wrong of me to not give them save or die spells known? I mean, they ARE wizards, after all, and it's as easy as scribing a scroll into their spellbook. It seems like your position suggests that I should, at least part of the time, include spellcasters capable of throwing save or die effects in encounters, even if it isn't something I've established as being really plot significant.

Why not?

Are these commonly available spells? Are they spells the PCs can easily find for scribing into their own books?

Would it not seem a bit odd for this to be the case, and for nobody in an array of evil people who want to kill them to ever use them?

[Quietus]

Why not?

Are these commonly available spells? Are they spells the PCs can easily find for scribing into their own books?

Would it not seem a bit odd for this to be the case, and for nobody in an array of evil people who want to kill them to ever use them?

I generally leave those spells alone - until the PCs use them, or only in important climactic fights. My general line of thinking is this : I'm trying to play a game and have fun. Losing a character, even temporarily, isn't something everyone finds fun. I don't think it's reasonable to have every random encounter potentially capable of wiping out an individual's fun with one low roll on a d20.

That's not to say death isn't on the table, of course. Those melee brutes with axes you've pissed off are probably going to swing them. And I'm not going to pull punches on that, because having zero chance of death takes away the risk, and devalues the reward. But having a significant chance of death carried by a single roll of a die when fighting something that isn't climactic at all .. it just feels lame.

So basically, I build worlds that feel believable. I put all sorts of conflict in them, and let the PCs chase whatever hooks them. The PCs define how lethal the world is, via their mechanical abilities. If a player throws shock trooper and leap attack together, I consider that a valid tactic for the NPCs. If a player prepares and uses Save or Die spells, again, that becomes a valid tactic. Until then, they will rarely encounter individuals capable of such things without foreshadowing.

[Shpadoinkle]

Why not?

Are these commonly available spells? Are they spells the PCs can easily find for scribing into their own books?

Would it not seem a bit odd for this to be the case, and for nobody in an array of evil people who want to kill them to ever use them?

Rule of Fun. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun) Most players I know don't consider it especially fun to fail a single die roll and consequently be unable to do anything for half the session.