WH40k vs. Star Wars vs. Star Trek TNG

[byaku rai]

As the title suggests, this thread is to debate who would win in a war between the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40,000 (since this is the media section, I'm gonna say just the novels, not the game), the Empire/Republic from Star Wars, and the Federation of Planets from Star Trek: The Next Generation (more for technology purposes than fluff reasons).

A lot of this comes down to how the various technologies interact. For example, what wins between a phaser and power armour? Star Trek deflector shields vs. Star Wars deflector shields? Bolters vs. lightsabers?

As a general rule, don't just post an opinion. Post the opinion, then back it up. Scientific thought is approved of, but not necessary since this is a Sci-Fi war, after all.

I'll start off. I think the Imperium (WH) would win. They have technology which allows them to cross the galaxy in a matter of days (comparable in speed to Star Wars, and orders of magnitude better than Star Trek's warp engines). Unlike the other two, space battles in the WH universe tend to be done at ranges of thousands of kilometers. The ranges for space battle in the other two are practically "point blank, nobody could possibly miss this" ranges for WH. Not to mention the sheer weight of fire that a typical Imperial battleship can bring to bear when compared to, say, the Enterprise. The primary difference in space tactics between the Empire and Imperium is the Empire's greater emphasis on fighters (they can simply cruise right through the enemy's shield and attack turrets and such directly). But the ranges involved in typical space combat should render that tactic fairly obsolete.

On the ground (or in boarding actions, the Space Marine's favorite), the Imperium is running about even with the Star Wars military. Their primary advantage is, of course, their ready supply of superhuman, uber-powerful combatants (Spess Mehrins FTW). Storm Troopers and Imperial Guard are approximately equal. I'm not entirely sure what would win between Star Wars walkers and WH tanks, but it would certainly be an interesting show.

Between Jedi and Space Marines, I'm going to have to go with the Marines. :smallfrown: Bolter rounds are explosive, so any Jedi who tries to bat one out of the air like they do with lasers is going to wind up with a face full of molten shrapnel. In close combat, I see the Jedi as being fairly analogous to Eldar warriors with a bit of psyker telekinesis in them, wielding power weapons. A properly equipped SM should be able to bring one down with relative ease. That is, if the Jedi survive being Bolter spammed before they get to melee range.

Well that's all for now, I have class. :smallfrown: I look forward to seeing if anyone out there is geeky enough to post a counter-argument.

Oh, one more thing. Don't waste space on the thread by just saying "yeah, that guy is right." If you don't have any new info to add to an argument, content yourself with lurking. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Alright, I'm back to make people stop flaming each other over what canon we're using. I'm also gonna copy this to the OP so there is marginally less confusion.

For Warhammer: Consistency between authors is an issue, so I'm making the Lexicanum the go-to source: http://www.lexicanum.com Novels and such are still allowed, but keep it reasonable. Battlefleet Gothic, Rogue Trader, and Dark Heresy seem to be relatively sane, so I'm tentatively allowing them as well. I am quite familiar with this setting, so asking me for help is a valid tactic.

For Star Wars: The movies take precedence over EVERYTHING. As someone has pointed out, this is not an accurate universe. It is even inconsistent with itself in places. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you use your common sense in what is possible and what is not. *I know I'm going to regret this, but there doesn't seem to be another option.* ICS is out, because I own all of them and the numbers in there simply aren't reasonable. EU seems to be a major inconsistency complaint, so I am greatly limiting it. Too much in the novels is dramatic expediency rather than scientific thought. :smallfrown: Our next job as a thread is to determine the real power output/range of a Star Destroyer's turbolaser. *hides under rock*

For Star Trek: The Original Series and The Next Generation (DS9 and Voyager are contemporary, so they are also usable). NOT the movies. In addition, anyone who makes mention of time travel as a tactic will be directed to the following statement: TIME TRAVEL IS NOT A VALID STRATEGY. IF THEY COULD DO THAT, THE DOMINION WOULDN'T HAVE BEATEN THEM SO BADLY FOR SO LONG. Glad that's out of my system. Seriously though, most of their vaunted technology is just one-shot gimmicks. Please only go with consistent ship capabilities.

[Selrahc]

Federation aren't a good match-up for the Empire or the Imperium. They're a relatively tiny coalition, with a focus on science and exploration rather than warfare, against two massive galaxy spanning juggernauts focussed on total war.

Empire vs. Imperium is a subject that we have endlessly on this forum. Empire has a much faster fleet. Imperium probably has a more powerful space-fleet and ground forces, at least at the start of the conflict.

Then we all start arguing about base delta zero and general power levels, whether the empire would collapse over a protracted war due to internal instability(and Imperium assassins), whether the Empire could launch a successful assault on Terra, the exact interplay between warp drive and hyperspace.. etc.

[hamishspence]

They have technology which allows them to cross the galaxy in a matter of days (comparable in speed to Star Wars, and orders of magnitude better than Star Trek's warp engines). Unlike the other two, space battles in the WH universe tend to be done at ranges of thousands of kilometers. The ranges for space battle in the other two are practically "point blank, nobody could possibly miss this" ranges for WH.

A case has been made that Star Wars ships normally engage at thousands of km- and that every fleet engagement in the movies needed to be at close range because of special circumstance- but generally, the Clone Wars TV series doesn't seem to support this.

That said, 40K ships are not as fast as all that. In the fluff in the Rogue Trader game, we find out the normal time it takes to make a long warp jump of 5000 km (typical maximum under most circumstances), is one year.

That said, some ships may be much faster (Grey Knight Strike Cruisers, most notably).

40K ships tend to be larger than their Star Wars counterparts (the smallest Imperium warship is the 1.5 km Cobra Destroyer) but less manuverable (take an hour or so to make a full circle, even at maximum turning rate on the small escort ships).

They have long ranged weapons- 60,000 km is normal combat range for a standard lance battery or weapons battery, and they can hit at ranges of 120,000 km.

[Trixie]

Well... Yup, we had this discussion many times. WH40K universe starts geared for war, but it cannot throw its full might at Empire, as too much of it is tied down. Likewise, much of the Empire's might is tied down - but it's going to change immediately after Palpatine uses IoM methods (purge of all xenos, ultra-fascist and oppressive regime) as propaganda, instantly unifying whole Galaxy behind him. After Space Marines purge a few human and xeno worlds alike (for being xenos/mingling with xenos) no one on Empire's side will surrender, they will all fight to the death. On Imperium's side, however, desertions of whole regiments and even planets will be common, as these guys gladly go over even to the Chaos/Tau given the chance - and here, they will see a liberal utopia (compared to IoM) with technology they can't even dream of, speeding the wave of dissent.

So, if Empire holds back (which they will, due to speed advantage) until they have a chance to gear up for war with their superior research and industry, IoM dies like stomped bug. It might take centuries, but Guardsmen are nowhere as disposable as clones/droids, and Marines (only million) can't match heavy battle droids produced in tens of millions per day on most of Empire's city-worlds.

[GloatingSwine]

The Federation of Planets isn't even in this war. Their starship armaments are orders of magnitude less powerful than either the Galactic Empire or the Imperium of Man, and they have no significant ground forces. The best they can do is pray to whatever they hold sacred that the bigger boys don't notice them and they can go home and change their piss stained jumpsuits.


Of the two actual powers, the Galactic Empire will win. Although they're outmatched in ground combat by Space Marines and the sheer numbers of the Imperial Guard, their starships are a match for anything the Imperium can build, and they have the most significant advantage of Hyperdrive, which is incomparably faster and more reliable than Warp travel on account of not having to take a side trip via hell. The Galactic Empire can decide where to fight and when, can strike where they please and leave before the Imperial Navy or Space Marine chapters can respond, and their own holdings are secured by the poor mobility of their enemy.

[byaku rai]

People in favor of GE are forgetting a couple of things:

1. TITANS. There is nothing in the Empire's arsenal short of total orbital nuking which can dispatch one of these monsters. At least not one of the big ones.

2. EXTERMINATUS. In the Imperium's view, just about the entire Empire is composed of xenos and heretics. The Empire had to make a moon-sized fortress (which Imperium has several of anyway) to have that sort of power. Imperium can pretty much kill whole planets at will.

That said, Star Wars does have a large speed advantage, which will count for a lot when they attack (Imperium won't be able to respond in time to hit-and-run attacks vs. hive worlds). But that won't necessarily apply on defense.

[GloatingSwine]

1. TITANS. There is nothing in the Empire's arsenal short of total orbital nuking which can dispatch one of these monsters. At least not one of the big ones.


Except the Empire can guarantee orbital supremacy due to it's vastly superior tactical and strategic mobility. They can use orbital bombardment on Titans with impunity.


2. EXTERMINATUS. In the Imperium's view, just about the entire Empire is composed of xenos and heretics. The Empire had to make a moon-sized fortress (which Imperium has several of anyway) to have that sort of power. Imperium can pretty much kill whole planets at will.

The Death Star does significantly more than Exterminatus. Exterminatus simply kills everything on a planet, it doesn't actually blow the planet up. The Imperium of Man can't even build things that can blow planets up (Chaos has one and the Blackstone Fortresses might be able to do so).

The Empire has it's own version of Exterminatus as well (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero). It doesn't even need a fleet, three Star Destroyers can perform the operation and blockade the planet sufficiently to ensure no witnesses escape as well.

[Lord_Gareth]

You folks are forgetting 40k's extraordinary range advantage, not to mention the sheer power level of their ship-to-ship armaments (including but not limited to just about every combat-ready ship having Exterminatus capability). They've got the psychics, legions of ground troops, and superior combat vehicle design. It's not a case of who wins, but how fast the Imperium can get its war machine rolling into GE space.

@Swine - One version of the Exterminatus involves cracking the planet in half, and then nuking the exposed core. Trust me, if the IoM wants a hunk of rock gone, it's freaking gone.

[hamishspence]

The Death Star does significantly more than Exterminatus. Exterminatus simply kills everything on a planet, it doesn't actually blow the planet up. The Imperium of Man can't even build things that can blow planets up (Chaos has one and the Blackstone Fortresses might be able to do so).

The Imperium has two-stage torpedoes that can, in fact, make a planet explode. These tend to be used on difficult targets, like Necron Tomb Worlds.

As for devastating the surface so no life can survive there, "ordinary" cyclonic torpedoes carried as standard by Space Marine Battle Barges can do the job.

Or, simply a barrage of lance fire by a small fleet of Imperial cruisers.

[Trixie]

People in favor of GE are forgetting a couple of things:

1. TITANS. There is nothing in the Empire's arsenal short of total orbital nuking which can dispatch one of these monsters. At least not one of the big ones.

So? At-At on high power shot in ESB vaporized titan-sized armored shield generator with a single blast. Then, there are bombers, heavier walkers, or artillery, like the guns in AotC, capable of bringing down starships, not titans.

Titans are commonly taken down by orks and smallest tyranids, actual troopers will have little trouble.


2. EXTERMINATUS. In the Imperium's view, just about the entire Empire is composed of xenos and heretics. The Empire had to make a moon-sized fortress (which Imperium has several of anyway) to have that sort of power. Imperium can pretty much kill whole planets at will.

Planetary shields. Common as chicken, capable of withstanding any bombardment for days/week. After Empire ambushes precious Inquisition fleets geared for exterminatus a few times, Imperium will be only capable of doing so by ships guns, which are much weaker than Empire's.

By the way, have you seen Ion cannon in ESB? Most important planets have networks of such guns, reinforced with planetary turbolasers, capable of vaporizing a cruiser with a single shot, star fortresses, and wings of starfighters. Unprepared IoM attack will be beaten back by planetary resources without any need to bring the fleet as support.

And, once they try it, Empire rallies behind Palpatine even harder, and Empire exterminates a few important worlds, like Ryza, or Armageddon, in response, bringing down Imperium's arms production like dropped hammer.


That said, Star Wars does have a large speed advantage, which will count for a lot when they attack (Imperium won't be able to respond in time to hit-and-run attacks vs. hive worlds). But that won't necessarily apply on defense.

What? They will be able to amass fleets dwarfing whatever Imperium throws at them as soon as they will be alerted. Greater speed means larger area from which the forces can be drawn once alarm is sounded, and, unlike IoM, Empire's worlds can actually fight back until relief arrives.

[byaku rai]

Orbital maneuverability is approximately the same for both Imperium craft and Empire craft. Or, at least, it should be. So don't count on too much orbital supremacy. In addition, just about every Imperium-held world will have lots of anti-orbital weapons. In addition, the massive range of Imperium weapons as opposed to Empire weapons gives them a huge tactical advantage in orbital conflict.

As far as BDZ... They'd still have to survive long enough to do that, and coordinate for it while under Imperial fire. I personally don't think they'd be able to accomplish it.

A lot of this hinges on the relative strengths of IoM Void Shields (depending on fluff, either create an impenetrable barrier or actually shunt enemy strikes into the Warp) vs. GE Deflector Shields (moderately useless in the movies). Especially how they compare to the other side's weaponry.

Titans never walk alone. They always have skitarii ground reinforcements, plus superheavy artillery, plus tank brigades. AT-ATs are unshielded, and have very limited usefulness in actual battle. Titans are routinely described as being able to raze cities in minutes and carry ordnance that allows them to nuke just about anything. And that's just the standard ones. Once you get up into Imperator and Warmonger class...

Yes, GE planets have orbital defences as well. But those are easy prey for strike cruisers and SM missions. No Imperial fleet is just going to blunder into a dangerous system.

Finally, though it is in a limited capacity, IoM has an advantage which the Empire just simply doesn't: teleporter tech. A single Terminator marine can just pop onto the bridge of a starship or control room of a ground-based target, slaughter everything, and pop back out while whistling a jolly tune.

[Tavar]

That said, 40K ships are not as fast as all that. In the fluff in the Rogue Trader game, we find out the normal time it takes to make a long warp jump of 5000 km (typical maximum under most circumstances), is one year.


Wait. Hold on a second. The earth's circumference is about 40,000 km. You're telling me that warp drives are slower than just using a jet engine? Or was there an era in scale there?

[Lord_Gareth]

Y'know folks, we've been down this road on vs. threads before, and the GE has yet to be declared to have even a fighting chance. I'm certain that Hamish or I can go archive diving, but let me sum up the Empire's biggest weaknesses:

1. Weapon design. Namely, the Empire has none. They use snubnose fighters, their capital ships fire forward only, their walkers are ill-designed, their blasters more slower than BB bullets (literally) and their primary strategy seems to be "Grab everyone we can recruit and fling them at the other guys", which is not a game they'll win against the Imperium of Man. At all.

2. Imperial Stupidity. I don't think I need to explain this further. Even Vader bemoans it.

3. Control. Namely, of their own territories. The Empire can barely keep their own planets in check, and their oppressive policies, especially re: aliens, aren't going to do them any good. If the TNG guys live long enough to offer someone sanctuary, they're going to lose significant chunks of their industrial force.

4. Range. The Empire has none. The IoM's fleets engage from thousands, sometimes millions of kilometers away. The Empire engages from right next to you, with, again, snubnose fighters. IoM missiles and ballistics barrages are going to eat them alive.

Hamish, your thoughts?

[byaku rai]

Y'know folks, we've been down this road on vs. threads before, and the GE has yet to be declared to have even a fighting chance. I'm certain that Hamish or I can go archive diving, but let me sum up the Empire's biggest weaknesses:

1. Weapon design. Namely, the Empire has none. They use snubnose fighters, their capital ships fire forward only, their walkers are ill-designed, their blasters more slower than BB bullets (literally) and their primary strategy seems to be "Grab everyone we can recruit and fling them at the other guys", which is not a game they'll win against the Imperium of Man. At all.

2. Imperial Stupidity. I don't think I need to explain this further. Even Vader bemoans it.

3. Control. Namely, of their own territories. The Empire can barely keep their own planets in check, and their oppressive policies, especially re: aliens, aren't going to do them any good. If the TNG guys live long enough to offer someone sanctuary, they're going to lose significant chunks of their industrial force.

4. Range. The Empire has none. The IoM's fleets engage from thousands, sometimes millions of kilometers away. The Empire engages from right next to you, with, again, snubnose fighters. IoM missiles and ballistics barrages are going to eat them alive.

Hamish, your thoughts?

You forgot the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

[GloatingSwine]

Orbital maneuverability is approximately the same for both Imperium craft and Empire craft..

We know that it isn't though. Imperial Navy craft take weeks to move around in system (see: the response of the Imperial Navy to Ghazghkull's arrival at the start of the Third Armageddon War, he's weeks into the system before the first engagements take place). Empire ships can cross the galaxy in a day, even poxy little shuttles, and can use their hyperdrive to move from one point in a system to another.


In addition, the massive range of Imperium weapons as opposed to Empire weapons gives them a huge tactical advantage in orbital conflict.

Even were that the case, tactical use of hyperdrive means that the Empire's ships can simply appear within their own engagement envelope at will, and there is nothing the Imperium can do to stop them.

[Lord_Gareth]

You forgot the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

Falls under Imperial Stupidity.

[Reverent-One]

Y'know folks, we've been down this road on vs. threads before, and the GE has yet to be declared to have even a fighting chance.

Just want to point out, that you saying this means nothing, since to those on the other side, the IoM has yet to be declared to have a fighting chance. I have yet to see a thread about this that actually comes to any sort of consensus on the matter.

[Lamech]

Umm... time travel. The feds have it. Sure they would really prefer if they didn't need to use it. But if they really have too they will. Thats not an advantage that can be overcome.

[Lord_Gareth]

Umm... time travel. The feds have it. Sure they would really prefer if they didn't need to use it. But if they really have too they will. Thats not an advantage that can be overcome.

Honestly, I'd think they'd just retreat and stay out of the fight entirely.

[byaku rai]

Even were that the case, tactical use of hyperdrive means that the Empire's ships can simply appear within their own engagement envelope at will, and there is nothing the Imperium can do to stop them.

Hyperdrive has difficulties functioning withing the gravity wells of planets. The Empire even designed a special type of Star Destroyer to make artificial gravity wells so it could keep enemies from just hyperspacing past the defences.

Besides, the GE engagement envelope is, in IoM terms, point-blank, cannot possibly miss, you-can't-block-these-missiles range. Not to mention the size discrepancy. Any Star Destroyer foolish enough to get that close to an IoM battleship is going to regret it instantly, assuming they have time before being atomized.

[GloatingSwine]

1. Weapon design. Namely, the Empire has none. They use snubnose fighters, their capital ships fire forward only, their walkers are ill-designed, their blasters more slower than BB bullets (literally) and their primary strategy seems to be "Grab everyone we can recruit and fling them at the other guys", which is not a game they'll win against the Imperium of Man. At all.


Their capital ships can put 50% power into a broadside and 100% power forwards. Using hyperdrive to ensure you arrive pointing at your enemy (who cannot even dream of using warp travel to do the same) means that an Imperial craft is always using it's full firepower. Not a disadvantage at all, especially when that firepower is equivalent or better than the opponent (and IoM and GE firepower is roughly equivalent).


2. Imperial Stupidity. I don't think I need to explain this further. Even Vader bemoans it.

Versus the Imperium of Man? A culture which is specifically designed around fanaticism and literally does not understand how 90% of its technology works. Yeah, the Galactic Empire might have Stupid Villain Syndrome, but the IoM has all of that taken to Grimdark extremes.


3. Control. Namely, of their own territories. The Empire can barely keep their own planets in check, and their oppressive policies, especially re: aliens, aren't going to do them any good. If the TNG guys live long enough to offer someone sanctuary, they're going to lose significant chunks of their industrial force.

The Federation doesn't have the capacity to take in "significant chunks" of anyone's industrial force in this equation. They're literally insignificant to this discussion.


4. Range. The Empire has none. The IoM's fleets engage from thousands, sometimes millions of kilometers away. The Empire engages from right next to you, with, again, snubnose fighters. IoM missiles and ballistics barrages are going to eat them alive.

However, the Empire can force engagements at will because it is incomparably faster and more mobile than the IoM. Range advantages mean nothing if the enemy literally appears right next to you like the Rebel fleet does in RotJ, combat range in minutes. (and let's not forget that the IoM is sufficiently grimdark that those massive torpedo barrages are loaded by hand by teams of thousands of galley slaves.. They aren't going to get much fire in in the minute tops before the Empire is in engagement range.

[GloatingSwine]

Hyperdrive has difficulties functioning withing the gravity wells of planets. The Empire even designed a special type of Star Destroyer to make artificial gravity wells so it could keep enemies from just hyperspacing past the defences.

Which will help the IoM not at all, because they do not make significant use of artificial gravity well generation in combat.


Besides, the GE engagement envelope is, in IoM terms, point-blank, cannot possibly miss, you-can't-block-these-missiles range. Not to mention the size discrepancy. Any Star Destroyer foolish enough to get that close to an IoM battleship is going to regret it instantly, assuming they have time before being atomized.

Except not, because the Star Destroyer matches or beats the IoM craft in terms of firepower output, and can hold up under that level of bombardment at least long enough to severely cripple the IoM battleship before using its hyperdrive to leave the engagement.

[byaku rai]

Of course, there's still the difference in shields... I honestly doubt that the GE can do much against Void Shields, even if they skip their own defense entirely to power their weapons. Lascannons and close-range turrets don't depend on galley slaves to function, they're operated by servitors. A lascannon is at least roughly equivalent to the primary turrets of GE ships, and there are much more on an IoM vessel than a GE vessel. Then, even when the GE ships get close, they're swimming through flak screens and point-defense weapons. If they lower shields to fire full-power, they will literally get shredded.

There is a gulf of difference between GE firepower and IoM firepower.

EDIT: I mentioned the gravitational limitation because it does significantly reduce the GE's maneuverability within a single system, and completely negates the advantage of hyperdrive against ships in orbit around a planet.

EDIT2: One more thought: IoM ships are designed for ramming. An IoM cruiser could most likely shear a Star Destroyer in half effortlessly. Plus lots and lots of boarding actions, in which GE is utterly defenseless.

[Anonymouswizard]

Y'know folks, we've been down this road on vs. threads before, and the GE has yet to be declared to have even a fighting chance. I'm certain that Hamish or I can go archive diving, but let me sum up the Empire's biggest weaknesses:

1. Weapon design. Namely, the Empire has none. They use snubnose fighters, their capital ships fire forward only, their walkers are ill-designed, their blasters more slower than BB bullets (literally) and their primary strategy seems to be "Grab everyone we can recruit and fling them at the other guys", which is not a game they'll win against the Imperium of Man. At all.

2. Imperial Stupidity. I don't think I need to explain this further. Even Vader bemoans it.

3. Control. Namely, of their own territories. The Empire can barely keep their own planets in check, and their oppressive policies, especially re: aliens, aren't going to do them any good. If the TNG guys live long enough to offer someone sanctuary, they're going to lose significant chunks of their industrial force.

4. Range. The Empire has none. The IoM's fleets engage from thousands, sometimes millions of kilometers away. The Empire engages from right next to you, with, again, snubnose fighters. IoM missiles and ballistics barrages are going to eat them alive.

Hamish, your thoughts?

+1

If it was just strait up IoM vs. the Empire, I would agree with you except for the excellent point that has been made of the IoM seeming like the greater of two evils and possibly rally the enitre empire. However, I have also thought of another ideas:

Range. If hyperspace is faster and more reliable than Warp travel (remember travel time inside and outside have no relationship as far as we know). This means that, theoretically, once they worked out that the IoM works at long range, as soon as they new where they were they would be able to jump their capital ships and fighters closer to the ships (and with FTL fighters, if they could manage precise enough calculations, maybe appear inside the shields).

It's been a while since I have been here (and 1st time in a thread with GE and IoM), so sorry if this has been mentioned.

But my money will always be on the IoM. If going from the Fluff, one space marine in Power Armour, maybe even just scout or flak armour, could kill the entire crew of a starship. We see blasters never really harming anything on-organic they are shot at of any resonable thinkness, while a bolter has more raw power than a laser gun that can shoot through concrete. So if the GE ever tried ground combat, their entire army would lose to a fraction of the Imperial Guard (like say, the Vostroyan Firstborn legions), or a chapter of Space Marines. Their only chance would be space combat, and hopefully the imperials will be smart enough to develop the jump so we are closer than their ships are designed for strategy. Let's just hope someone likely to help from the 40k universe (like say, no one) is here as well.

EDIT: also, due to the warp travel meaning ships can arrive literally centuries before they started, it would be possible that the GE will have already been fighting a few IoM ships before they are aware of their existence/the rest of the fleet has arrived.

[Emperor Ing]

The only advantage the Empire has is moot once they figure out the hard way that the Imperium has freakin' teleportation to drop spess mahreens and neutralize Star Destroyers from the inside.

I think it really comes down to this. In the grim derpness of the far future, there is only war, and the Imperium is REALLY good at it.

[GloatingSwine]

Lascannons and close-range turrets don't depend on galley slaves to function, they're operated by servitors. A lascannon is at least roughly equivalent to the primary turrets of GE ships

Man, do you even know what a Lascannon is? It's a man portable antitank weapon. They're not relevant to this discussion. Lance Batteries, Torpedoes, and Nova Cannons are the primary ship to ship weapon of the Imperial Navy.


and there are much more on an IoM vessel than a GE vessel. Then, even when the GE ships get close, they're swimming through flak screens and point-defense weapons. If they lower shields to fire full-power, they will literally get shredded.

There's no evidence that lowering shields is required to fire at full power.


There is a gulf of difference between GE firepower and IoM firepower.

Any gulf in firepower favours the Galactic Empire, not the Imperium of Man.

You can work out the relative firepower from the effects of the Exterminatus of Cyrene vs. the Base Delta Zero operation. The Cyrene exterminatus was carried out by a flotilla of what were most likely Imperial Cruisers (as those are the vessels most commonly attached to the Inquisition), a "flotilla" is referenced in the Ciaphas Cain novels as being another word for a squadron, and an Imperial Cruiser squadron is 2-4 ships (per BFG rulebook), and took several days to melt the surface of the planet to a primordial slag (dawn of war novels).

An equivalent number of Star Destroyers could do the same job in an hour.

Notably in Battlefleet Gothic the weapons mounted by an Imperial Battleship are not significantly more powerful than those mounted by a Cruiser or Grand Cruiser, just more numerous.

[byaku rai]

Man, do you even know what a Lascannon is? It's a man portable antitank weapon. They're not relevant to this discussion. Lance Batteries, Torpedoes, and Nova Cannons are the primary ship to ship weapon of the Imperial Navy.

My mistake. Chill out, this is a place for rational discussion, not rage-fueled diatribes.


There's no evidence that lowering shields is required to fire at full power.

GE battleships are designed to be able to divert full power to weapons or shields, whatever the situation requires. Devoting full power to weapons requires funneling energy to nowhere else. Of course, I doubt that even under the influence of Imperial Stupidity a captain would risk it. Not that GE shield technology is worth anything anyway.


You can work out the relative firepower from the effects of the Exterminatus of Cyrene vs. the Base Delta Zero operation. The Cyrene exterminatus was carried out by a flotilla of what were most likely Imperial Cruisers (as those are the vessels most commonly attached to the Inquisition), a "flotilla" is referenced in the Ciaphas Cain novels as being another word for a squadron, and an Imperial Cruiser squadron is 2-4 ships (per BFG rulebook), and took several days to melt the surface of the planet to a primordial slag (dawn of war novels).

An equivalent number of Star Destroyers could do the same job in an hour.

How was the Exterminatus carried out? Most Exterminatus operations require some time to work, as whatever the lethal agent is spreads across the globe. Besides, Exterminatus measures aren't exactly ship-to-ship combat fare, are they? With the Empire's worthless shields and even more worthless gunners, they aren't likely to last long in the ring with a culture which has embraced war as a way of life for 10,000 years.

Love how nobody is paying attention to the difference in shield tech besides me...

In addition, as I have already said, this:


The only advantage the Empire has is moot once they figure out the hard way that the Imperium has freakin' teleportation to drop spess mahreens and neutralize Star Destroyers from the inside.

Thanks to The Randomizer for drawing attention to it. Once the Imperium turns the space battle into a ground battle, the GE is done. Nothing they have on board a ship can compare with a Space Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

[Reverent-One]

GE battleships are designed to be able to divert full power to weapons or shields, whatever the situation requires. Devoting full power to weapons requires funneling energy to nowhere else. Of course, I doubt that even under the influence of Imperial Stupidity a captain would risk it. Not that GE shield technology is worth anything anyway.

What? No. There's nothing to indiciate that a Star Destroyer cannot fire their guns at maximum power while having the shields at full power, they have the power to run both systems just fine.


Love how nobody is paying attention to the difference in shield tech besides me...

Because the difference in shield tech isn't obvious, but very debateable. If GloatingSwine is correct and GE firepower is supieror to IoM firepower, then GE shields should be similarly more powerful. On the other hand, if you are correct that a lascannon is comparable to a heavy turbolaser turrent, GE shields are going to be far weaker than IoM shields. The issue that crops up in these threads is that the opposing sides cannot agree on these relative strengths, so these threads go nowhere.

[byaku rai]

You are quite a wise person. Without stats on either side, we can't really agree on anything.

[hamishspence]

Wait. Hold on a second. The earth's circumference is about 40,000 km. You're telling me that warp drives are slower than just using a jet engine? Or was there an era in scale there?

There was an error- it's 5000 Light Years.

on hyperdrive vs IoM Warp drive- Warp drive has even more severe restrictions- it has to be engaged right at the edge of a system (basically, in the Kuiper belt zone).

Normally, a ship accelerates slowly up to 1% of the speed of light, and travels at this speed to the Kuiper belt zone where the star's gravity is low enough for the warp drive to be engaged safely.

Similarly, it comes in at the edge of a system, moves in at this speed, and decelerates to match planetary orbit.

The trip in or out, may take a week or two.

That said, there are exceptions- the warp-capable battle station Phalanx, in Flight of the Eisenstein, comes in from the edge of the system at 3/4 the speed of light.

The Imperium does have some shields akin to the one defending the Hoth base though- in the Imperial Armour 10: The Badab War Part II book, Huron's planetary fortress, the Palace of Thorns, is protected by a "lightning field" capable of stopping major orbital bombardment, and of destroying any ship that tries to pass through. The defense lasers are also capable of destroying capital ships in orbit.



Thanks to The Randomizer for drawing attention to it. Once the Imperium turns the space battle into a ground battle, the GE is done. Nothing they have on board a ship can compare with a Space Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

A stormtrooper in Spacetrooper Armour? Not as tough, but has good weapons and armour.

[GloatingSwine]

How was the Exterminatus carried out? Most Exterminatus operations require some time to work, as whatever the lethal agent is spreads across the globe. Besides, Exterminatus measures aren't exactly ship-to-ship combat fare, are they?

Since the planet's crust was melted, it's fairly obvious that the Exterminatus of Cyrene was carried out by massive bombardment by starship weapons, probably lance batteries rather than virus bombs or any of the more exotic exterminatus weapons. (We also see this done to Typhon Primaris, probably by the same Inquisition fleet, as it's in the same Imperial sub-sector).


Thanks to The Randomizer for drawing attention to it. Once the Imperium turns the space battle into a ground battle, the GE is done. Nothing they have on board a ship can compare with a Space Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

The problem is how they're going to do that. Imperial Navy vessels do not carry Space Marine detachments (Remember that the branches of Imperial service are seperated to the point of outright antagonism due to the ever present risk of Heresy), only Space Marine vessels could actually do this, and they are a tiny fraction of Imperial space power. (also, we've seen blasters blowing large holes in reinforced plascrete in the escape from Tattooine, material that was designed to stand up to starship engine wash, they're at least on par with lasguns, which can bring down Space Marines with focused fire).

In broader terms there's no way the Imperium can force a ground engagement, invading fleets can be met with overwhelming force because Hyperdrive speeds allow the Empire to redeploy forces far more swiftly than Warp travel allows. (Remember that warp travel across the Imperium can take anywhere from weeks to centuries depending on how the Warp itself feels at the time).

[Misery Esquire]

(Remember that warp travel across the Imperium can take anywhere from weeks to centuries depending on how the Warp itself feels at the time).

It can also take negative time, and they arrive at the destination before they leave.

So how about we settle for the average, and "normal", travel times designated, eh?

[Coidzor]

It can also take negative time, and they arrive at the destination before they leave.

So how about we settle for the average, and "normal", travel times designated, eh?

That's fine, but it still leaves about a week between entering a system and getting to the point where they can threaten any kind of worthwhile planet.

Traveling from one end of explored space to another using hyperdrive is supposed to take just a little bit longer than a week and a half, so they'd still get hit with a concentration of GE firepower.

[polity4life]

I know a little of the fluff for both, but from what I have experience the Empire has a hands-down advantage on long-range communication and far superior mobilization times. I think the forms of government and societies are contributing factors to communication.

Although both are empires, the Imperium of Man seems more like an oligarchy lording over a confederation of lesser oligarchs. There's no cohesion across the entire Imperium; networks of all varieties do not expand well outside of a system, let alone a planet. The Empire, however, has more direct interactions with leadership in that the leadership directly interacts with subordinates, providing for less noise in communication, quicker turn-around from policy theory to implementation, and possibly a motivational boost to the subordinate (rational proactive managerial literature would argue as such). The bureaucracy is seemingly more efficient and responsive to environmental changes. It's a text-book top-down hierarchy with very little in terms of a feedback loop. Palpatine points and all things move (Whether he is pointing at something that adds value to the Empire is another matter entirely).

Those structural differences may make the alter the course of this war where the Imperium seems to have more and better firepower.

Those are my two cents. I take no offense if you tear them down.

[byaku rai]

Are GE ships actually capable of using hyperdrive to move into the heart of a system? Or is that just expedience on Lucas's part to avoid long scenes of just moving in towards the planet? Keep in mind that we have to take the average of fluff, not extreme cases.

[GloatingSwine]

Are GE ships actually capable of using hyperdrive to move into the heart of a system? Or is that just expedience on Lucas's part to avoid long scenes of just moving in towards the planet? Keep in mind that we have to take the average of fluff, not extreme cases.

Errr, yes, and we see it happen all the time in the movies. It's even specifically referenced in Empire Strikes Back (Admiral Ozzel is executed for bringing the fleet out of hyperspace close to Hoth, allowing the Rebels to detect it).

[Fan]

Errr, yes, and we see it happen all the time in the movies. It's even specifically referenced in Empire Strikes Back (Admiral Ozzel is executed for bringing the fleet out of hyperspace close to Hoth, allowing the Rebels to detect it).

Except it was still far enough away that they were out of the gravity well, and ships could hyper drive out before getting bombarded by the dozens of Star Destroyers.

Also considering that the Hyper Drives are purely human tech, and the Empire's ships are piloted by purely human crew, and there are NO signs of the taint of chaos (In fact, I believe the IoM and the Empire both hired the same interior designer. :smalltongue: ) I can easily see this being discovered as a lost STC from the Dark Age of Technology representing a way to circumvent the warp. Though Gellar Fields would still be used to block out chaos, and stop teleport attacks. I can see that being an addition on every Battle Barge pretty quickly.

Also, GE has NO tactical FTL, I have read DOZENS of novels including the one featuring the Yuhzon Vong, and the New Republic, a society more advanced than the Galactic Empire was completely incapable of using that tech, the same goes for the Imperial's featured in that book as they specifically couldn't get within range to suicide bomb Coursant.

Even EU has no support for that.

Also, Base Delta Zero. Compare to the Exterminatus in Dawn of War II Retribution, cracked the planet deep enough in 12 minutes to carve through a second planet inside that planet burning everything down far below the meters upon meters of solid rock, and boiling all it's seas.

This is done without a planet cracker missile, and is a bombardment by several (The exact number is 4-5, if you count the command ship which isn't shown as firing.) ships within a span of 12 minutes.

BDZ takes easily twice as long as that, and Imperial Shields overcome this on top of blocking teleportation.

You can't beat the IoM at the game of War, they are simply the best there is. Their enemies just all cheat by being unkillable, mass producing at a rate greater than which they can be killed, or being able to randomly teleport to any world ever instantly.


There is also the question of whether or not the Hyper Drive tech they find can be used to finish the Golden Throne's connection to the webway. Because that would be pretty crazy.

[Coidzor]

Also, Base Delta Zero. Compare to the Exterminatus in Dawn of War II Retribution, cracked the planet deep enough in 12 minutes to carve through a second planet inside that planet burning everything down far below the meters upon meters of solid rock, and boiling all it's seas.

Stop. Just stop right there. A planet within another planet. No. Just no. The pain to my brain is just too great.

[GloatingSwine]

Stop. Just stop right there. A planet within another planet. No. Just no. The pain to my brain is just too great.

There's a Craftworld buried on Typhon Primaris, but do be aware that not all Craftworlds are planet sized (in fact, probably only the very largest are, most are more like city sized), they started out much smaller and have been added to over the millennia since the Fall of the Eldar, and this one probably crashed around the time of the Fall.

[Talkkno]

Please demonstrate that the IOM weapons are comparable to 200 gigaton turbolasers(Per the AOTC ICS)

[Fan]

Please demonstrate that the IOM weapons are comparable to 200 gigaton turbolasers(Per the AOTC ICS)

Again.. They bust a planet in 12 minutes, with at least a continent sized Solid Wraith Steel (something supposedly many times stronger than regular steel) construct at least as thick as a city underneath it completely cutting through down to the mantle. (as evidenced by the red veins of magma that appear all over the planet. Some of the may have been volcano's but when it's covering well over half the planet's surface, I doubt it.)

That is your "Boils seas, and burns down 1 meter of crust" X50.

[Lamech]

Again.. They bust a planet in 12 minutes, with at least a continent sized Solid Wraith Steel (something supposedly many times stronger than regular steel) construct at least as thick as a city underneath it completely cutting through down to the mantle. (as evidenced by the red veins of magma that appear all over the planet. Some of the may have been volcano's but when it's covering well over half the planet's surface, I doubt it.)If viens of magma are appearing, there are distinctly non-magma portions. (In fact for them to be viens quite a bit must be non-magma). As opposed to actually melting the crust and turning the whole thing into magma.

[TheOasysMaster]

I've been reading about the teleportation abilities of the IoM.
And while this may seem to be a significant factor, it really isn't if you look at the movies and consider the doctrines Star Wars factions use....

To begin, let's look at the Star Trek Federation...
To capture the Enterprise, you capture the bridge. You can control the whole ship from there. The bridge is literally the brain. Blow up the bridge, and it's all over.
In one of the movies, the bridge detaches from the rest of the ship when the Enterprise crashes...

If Star Wars worked by this centralised doctrine, easily, the Imperium could teleport their Marines onto the bridge, kill the officers at will, and capture or self-destruct the Star Destroyer in question.

But this is not the case.

The most notable military factions in Star Wars are decentralised. The bridge may do a great deal of controlling the ship, but a single droid can run the ship from any accessible access port.
Star Wars uses a decentralised doctrine, where cutting off the head doesn't necessarily kill the body.

If the Marine 'ports onto the Bridge, sure, he can kill all the officers there; but this isn't going to stop the guns from firing, the shields won't go down, and it won't stop officers elsewhere from assuming command and dealing with the officer in question.

In Star Wars, 'porting onto any capital ship does not guarantee a victory at all.


Finally, I'd have to side with the Empire. The Force is at their disposal. Depending on what era we're talking... Rebellion-era. Palpatine's Return. Legacy-era...
The Empire always has a group or a particlarly nasty Force-user at their disposal...

[Mr.Bookworm]

Titans are commonly taken down by orks and smallest tyranids, actual troopers will have little trouble.

In the common vernacular of the Internet, good man, LOLWUT?

I mean, do you know anything about 40k? That's one of the most boggling statements I've heard in a while.

Anyway, it really depends on whether this is Final Destination, no items, Fox only, or whether some sort of portal opens up and the politics of both universes are maintained (I'm not very familiar with the Federation, but from what I know, they shouldn't even enter into this).

In the first situation, where the Imperium can bring their whole might to bear, they win pretty hard. Even if the Imperium was armed only with sharp sticks, harsh language, and had to walk through the Warp to get where they're going, they win by sheer dint of numbers if nothing else.

In the second situation, where the Imperium has to deal with the other ten million daily threats, I would still give it to them, albeit not as easily. The Imperium still has a massive numbers advantage, they can be subtle, contrary to popular belief (I can pretty easily see a Vindicare popping in to say "hi" to the Emperor), and I think that no matter how much we argue about technology, we can agree that they are, overall, at a more or less equal playing field.

[Fan]

If viens of magma are appearing, there are distinctly non-magma portions. (In fact for them to be viens quite a bit must be non-magma). As opposed to actually melting the crust and turning the whole thing into magma.

You could see the rivers of molten lava from space, before, there were no volcanos mentioned, and no planet long, and state wide rivers of lava existed. It lost at least half a mile of crust in the bombardment.

This is being insanely conservative considering a mountain is now an insanely deep crater. (The location of the final boss fight.).

It is EASILY equal, and is also EASILY far beyond it.

In regards to the Force User Argument.

Alpha Plus Class Psykers, you know that MEGA HUGE thing that MACE WINDU had trouble dealing with, the one that stomp crumpled entire platoons of men?

Well, Alpha Psykers can control planets through mind control, every living being at once.

These are present in mass numbers once the warp becomes a factor in the Empire, it takes a dystopian mass murder dictatorship to keep these beings in line.

Then there are the Librarians of the Space Marines, Far more numerous, and more powerful on average than any force users the Galactic Empire can bring to bear.

Then CHIEF Librarians who I would bet on over ANY Jedi Master, including "Punches out Super Battle Droids" Mace Windu.

[doliest]

Question:If we're including the IoM in this, and using it's surrounding enemies as a limiting factor, shouldn't we include them, as well as the Rebellion? Because, as it's been said, the IoM are bad guys. But the people they're fighting? They're worse. I really want to know what the Empire's reaction would be to a Tomb World or an Orc Waug. Also, just a small point, but the Force doesn't even deserve a mention. It's got less than a handful of centralized users under Imperial control. If Space Marines are rare, Force Users might as well not exist. :smallwink:

Edit:Oh, and as far as the skill of the people in charge when it comes to directing battle, the IoM. By Far. They may tend towards Wave-tactics, but they've been fighting for a long time. In comparison to the Empire, where most of the military doctrine is focused on The Rebellion, a force drastically less supplied and with less at it's disposal. In the first few months of the war, the Empire won't know what hits them. From there, it's all about how they recover.

[TheOasysMaster]

Depends on the Era...

Palaptine alone, is a formidable threat. And he had Force-users under his control. Like, Idunno... Vader.
There's Rebellion-era for you.


When Palpatine Returns, he's more active then ever, actually fighting and making use of the Force Storm...

In the LEGACY-era, this is where we're REALLY talking...
If the Imperium attack the Empire, they're facing the Storm Troopers backed by Sith Lords and Darth Krayt as well as the Imperial Knights. MANY Force-users...

[Fan]

Depends on the Era...

Palaptine alone, is a formidable threat. And he had Force-users under his control. Like, Idunno... Vader.
There's Rebellion-era for you.


When Palpatine Returns, he's more active then ever, actually fighting and making use of the Force Storm...

In the LEGACY-era, this is where we're REALLY talking...
If the Imperium attack the Empire, they're facing the Storm Troopers backed by Sith Lords and Darth Krayt as well as the Imperial Knights. MANY Force-users...

They would still be out numbered even then by the mighty legions of the Adeptus Astartes, and their Battle Fleets.

I mean, the Imperial Fists have a freaking small planetoid as their mobile base, and that's just the Imperial Fists who also have a force of 250 strike cruisers and various other deals.

If we get to pick an choose eras, then I select the GOLDEN CRUSADE, the Era of Man where the God Emperor himself stood with the Primarchs, and Horus was still the War Master.

The GoMk shoots Super Nova lasers at people from his eyes, and it took the combined effort of the manifestation of every Chaos God, and his own Progeny together at once to even wound him enough to force him onto the Golden Throne.

You take the Chaos Gods out of the Equation, and you end up with the Golden Throne serving as the Human Entrance to the Webway instead of the Emperor's Tomb, the Adeptus Custodes (Each of whom are to Space Marine Terminator as a Space Marine Terminator is to an Imperial Guardsman.), and the webway can function anywhere you build a gate, but it does serve to give the IoM instant coverage of ALL it's planets for defensive purposes.

Also, the point with teleport attacks is, that there is NO WAY, they are stopping some Assault Terminators once they get into their Bridge, from there they can assume direct control over the ships movements, and make it so the Tech Marines can reroute all the power to the shields and away from the weapons.

In fact, as far as I know, on SSD's all firing control IS done from the bridge, so with Vader's typical Bravado he'd show up, find the Primarch Sanguinus and the First Company Assault Terminators with him, try to force whatever them, find that Sanginus is a literal Demigod in regards to Psychic power, and quickly regret that decision as instant murder techniques are used on him.

[doliest]

I thought we were using the general 'eras' for this; Empire is the Original Trilogy, 40K is the 'modern' Imperium.

[Fan]

I thought we were using the general 'eras' for this; Empire is the Original Trilogy, 40K is the 'modern' Imperium.

Hence why I said if we get to pick Era's. :smalltongue:

[doliest]

Wait-I just realized the deciding factor::
Does the IoM get Ciaphis Cain; HERO OF THE IMPERIUM! ? If so, they win. Period. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[profitofrage]

I know im going to regret touching this thread. Its toxic because the people who have large swaths of knowledge about star wars have little to no idea how the 40k world works and vice versa.

Here are some big points I hear often from star wars fans on topics like these.

1) "Jedi knights / force users"
Psykers...at there lowest power levels are common enough to mass sacrifice without even the slightest worry that they will run out. Those of higher levels? can preform feats that Jedi have been seen struggling with...these guys are sent along in groups 2-5 just to support small Imperial guard engagments. Granted the main reason there not more commonly used is that the IoM is afraid they will kill TO much and go crazy. Alpha level psykers? These are people they have had to mobalize entre space marine chapters just to come close to destroying...these psykers could kill Darth Vadar from a planet away and he wouldnt know what happened.

2) "Star Destroyers have turbo lasers" Nothing I have seen...ever...in any thread...has been able to show me a readily wide spread star wars weapon that cracks planets in half. These are ships...that fighters fly through..reak havoc and nearly destroy. In 40K sending fighters towards an enemy ship means you want to board them...because everyone knows they havnt got the slightest of chances accomplishing anything else.

3) ship size. "Star destroyers are way powerful" no..just no. A star destroyer is comparable in size with the smallest of 40K ships. Those same ships are considered cannon fodder in large scale war engagements in 40k.

4) speed "star wars is fast" This Ill give you...except the overall result is mute. You choose the engagments...thats fine...the IoM has already spent 10000 years already well prepared for being beset on all sides.
Another enemy saying "HA we can attack anywhere..you wont know when well show UP!" wont phase them in the least, in fact if you DONT do that the imperium considers you a mild threat to the imperium.

5) Ground battles "storm troopers are like space marines" No. just No. A squad of space marines could reduce clone armies to useless mush when used tacticfully (always used in this manor). However using Space marines in a star wars vs IoM thread is always done wrong. Space Marine legions are rare. They dont pop up everywhere, they will instead be dropped on coruscant..or other places of note to fight the big important battles. (which they will win easily). So lets go with teh stock standard fights.
Imperial Guard....these are legions of men so numerous its a perfectly sound tactic in a commanders arsenal to simply "throw men" at a problem. This is also a military organisation who have spent thousands upon thousands of years fighting threats seemingly invulnerable...mind shattering in power. The GE storm troopers will be a walk in the park, if a morally uplifting experience. The Imperial guardsmen who die on that field will die with a smile "that at least they wernt on catachan. Or fighting Nids".

6) Titans......you have none......your screwed in ground engagements...fullstop. "But we have--" No...if it cant reduce a city to ash with a salvo...you dont have enough firepower to bring one down. Titans survive salvos from other titans....so if you dont have something comparable..your dead.

[TheOasysMaster]

Edit:Oh, and as far as the skill of the people in charge when it comes to directing battle, the IoM. By Far. They may tend towards Wave-tactics, but they've been fighting for a long time. In comparison to the Empire, where most of the military doctrine is focused on The Rebellion, a force drastically less supplied and with less at it's disposal. In the first few months of the war, the Empire won't know what hits them. From there, it's all about how they recover.
Whoa.
No, not true at all.
There's a reason why it's called "Star Wars"...
The Galaxy has been in perpetual war for nearly 6000 years since hyperdrive was invented.
That's a long time to come up with strategy and doctrine.
And more specifically, did you see the officers and generals aboard the Death Star in New Hope?
Those aren't green, wet behind the ear troops.
The officers of the Imperial Navy were specifically chosen from Republic officers after Order 66; those who symapthised with the Jedi too much...
shared their fates...


I honestly don't play Warhammer...
I'm Wiki-ing them...
But assuming we're using the Rebellion Era as the Empire's based, I don't know what the Imperium's is...
Would anyone care to give us a crash course...

And by the way, that laser-beam, eye shooting thing... I wouldn't bet much on the Empire in that exchange...
Man, 40K is insane...


This is also a military organisation who have spent thousands upon thousands of years fighting threats seemingly invulnerable...mind shattering in power. The GE storm troopers will be a walk in the park, if a morally uplifting experience. The Imperial guardsmen who die on that field will die with a smile "that at least they wernt on catachan. Or fighting Nids".
The Imperial Army is founded upon the Remnants of the Grand Army of the Republic which was trained according to the culture of the Mandalorians...
Don't count them out.
A Fett clone can and will take anything you can dish out. And when he dies, you can bet he won't be smiling but spitting in your eye with his last ragged breath.
:smallwink:


6) Titans......you have none......your screwed in ground engagements...fullstop. "But we have--" No...if it cant reduce a city to ash with a salvo...you dont have enough firepower to bring one down. Titans survive salvos from other titans....so if you dont have something comparable..your dead.
Turbolaster strike from above?
Ion weapons?
Custom-baradium warheads?

[profitofrage]

TheOasysMaster would you consider yourself very knowledgable about star wars? Because Im suddenly feeling the urge to find someone who is, then taking an in depth discussion to the PM's in order to in a civil matter conclude ounce and for all who would win. up for it? :P

[TheOasysMaster]

TheOasysMaster would you consider yourself very knowledgable about star wars? Because Im suddenly feeling the urge to find someone who is, then taking an in depth discussion to the PM's in order to in a civil matter conclude ounce and for all who would win. up for it? :P
I would like to say yes...
But that ":P" makes me read your post as sarcasm...
D=
Barring that, I'd like to say yes. I haven't read every piece or played every game. But I practically live on Wookiepedia...

[Fan]

Whoa.
No, not true at all.
There's a reason why it's called "Star Wars"...
The Galaxy has been in perpetual war for nearly 6000 years since hyperdrive was invented.
That's a long time to come up with strategy and doctrine.
And more specifically, did you see the officers and generals aboard the Death Star in New Hope?
Those aren't green, wet behind the ear troops.
The officers of the Imperial Navy were specifically chosen from Republic officers after Order 66; those who symapthised with the Jedi too much...
shared their fates...


I honestly don't play Warhammer...
I'm Wiki-ing them...
But assuming we're using the Rebellion Era as the Empire's based, I don't know what the Imperium's is...
Would anyone care to give us a crash course...

And by the way, that laser-beam, eye shooting thing... I wouldn't bet much on the Empire in that exchange...
Man, 40K is insane...


The Imperial Army is founded upon the Remnants of the Grand Army of the Republic which was trained according to the culture of the Mandalorians...
Don't count them out.
A Fett clone can and will take anything you can dish out. And when he dies, you can bet he won't be smiling but spitting in your eye with his last ragged breath.
:smallwink:


Turbolaster strike from above?
Ion weapons?
Custom-baradium warheads?

Except there is only ONE legion left of the Clone Troopers, The 501st, "Vader's Hand", and they seem to die just as easily as anyone else, a single headshot from the comparably weak E-11 blaster rifle takes them out.

A space marine would take that to the back of the head, grunt, and wonder what the hell just happened.

There is no comparing even a Commander Trooper to a Space Marine. It's simply not do-able.

[profitofrage]

I would like to say yes...
But that ":P" makes me read your post as sarcasm...
D=
Barring that, I'd like to say yes. I haven't read every piece or played every game. But I practically live on Wookiepedia...


I was being rather serious :P
If that is so then to the PM's then when the arguments are done and a result found. I will have something I can submit to everyone of these threads and end them ounce and for all.

[Fjolnir]

Honestly I think the best ST force to take on the WH40k and SW universes is the Dominion. Without its full force it is a menace to the entire alpha quadrant using sleeper agents and it's ground troops are the best in that particular universe (Jem'hadaar, not Cardassians)

[TheOasysMaster]

A space marine would take that to the back of the head, grunt, and wonder what the hell just happened.
What are the power levels of weapons in the 40K universe to survive a blaster bolt to the HEAD?
0_O
It's a LASER!



Except there is only ONE legion left of the Clone Troopers, The 501st, "Vader's Hand", and they seem to die just as easily as anyone else, a single headshot from the comparably weak E-11 blaster rifle takes them out.
No...
The 501st became Vader's 'personal' force, but for a long time the Imperial Army was made up of Fett clones mixed with other clone templates and actual recruits backed up by droids. Not many droids though...

Man, I'm reading more and more about 40K...
They're operating on a whole other level...
It doesn't look good for ANYBODY to face anything from that universe...
:smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah the level of power you need to take on 40K and win is TTGL level.

[Misery Esquire]

What are the power levels of weapons in the 40K universe to survive a blaster bolt to the HEAD?
0_O
It's a LASER!


The Lasgun, also firing "laser bolts" much like a blaster, are considered one of the weakest weapons to find yourself stuck with on the battlefield. (Though, autoguns, ballistic machine guns, are technically weaker, they're also not featured in any standing army. Mostly gangers and traitors.)



Man, I'm reading more and more about 40K...
They're operating on a whole other level...
It doesn't look good for ANYBODY to face anything from that universe...
:smalltongue:

It's a pretty silly place, but there are settings that jump them entirely.

[TheOasysMaster]

The Lasgun, also firing "laser bolts" much like a blaster, are considered one of the weakest weapons to find yourself stuck with on the battlefield
So...
What's the optimal weapon?
Star Wars uses blasters the same way the USA uses machine guns like the M16...
Is it the M16, I dunno...

What's the armor like? Is it naturally laser resistant or do they have shields like the Master Chief.

And just for the record, Storm Trooper armor is supposed to be SOMEWHAT a sort of protection from laser fire. Repeated shots in the same area will cause it to disentegrate...
The movies don't show this because...
Lucas didn't think it'd be as entertaining for Luke to plug a Storm Trooper with five blaster bolts to put him down.
AND, even if it isn't laser proof-it should be great against shrapnel.
[shrugs]



It's a pretty silly place, but there are settings that jump them entirely.
Really? Like who?

[Shovah]

So...
What's the armor like? Is it naturally laser resistant or do they have shields like the Master Chief.

It's kind of naturally.. just about everything resistant.
Standard Space Marine Power Armour is very tough, and Terminator Armour pretty much turns them into small walking tanks.


Storm Trooper armour can protect against shrapnel and lasers, but what about bolt weapons (bolters, heavy bolters, storm bolters, bolt pistols..) which are the standard Space Marine weapons?

From Lexicanum:
"Bolt weapons fire self-propelled mass-reactive shells known as bolts, which are timed to explode just after penetration for maximum lethality. The standard bolt is .75 calibre with a super-dense metallic core and diamantine tip."

"The bolt is more a miniature explosive rocket than a conventional bullet. As the round leaves the barrel, the bolt's tiny rocket is ignited, which carries the warhead forward and imparts a stabilizing spin."

"The standard ammunition employed by the Space Marines is a mass reactive warhead, which has earned the bolter its reputation as a terror weapon. A millisecond fuse detonates the warhead after it has penetrated the target, however at extremely close range the bolts are known to pass through the target, only putting a hole in the target the size of the round and exploding behind it."

So.. basically a semi/automatic weapon that fires miniature rockets being fired by genetically enhanced super-soldiers.


Of course, these aren't the mainstay of the IoMs forces by any stretch of the imagination, but the million or so of them are quite handy to call in for important battles.

[Lamech]

Honestly I think the best ST force to take on the WH40k and SW universes is the Dominion. Without its full force it is a menace to the entire alpha quadrant using sleeper agents and it's ground troops are the best in that particular universe (Jem'hadaar, not Cardassians) You mean the fairest match up or the best of the ST groups to fight them? The feds will clearly stomp both the GE and Imperium due to time travel. Yes the federation isn't a fan of time travel and only uses it for big important things like saving planets, but this clearly qualifies. So if you think they'll make a better match up for this probably. But if you think they will be better than any other ST faction thats silly.

[TheArsenal]

Again? Really? Is nobody tired of repeating w40k wins again? I mean come ON people the winner is obvious. Why with the rehashing of this dead horse

[chiasaur11]

You mean the fairest match up or the best of the ST groups to fight them? The feds will clearly stomp both the GE and Imperium due to time travel. Yes the federation isn't a fan of time travel and only uses it for big important things like saving planets, but this clearly qualifies. So if you think they'll make a better match up for this probably. But if you think they will be better than any other ST faction thats silly.

I really hate Feddie time travel.

Half the time they have no idea what they're doing.

The other half they're going back to the 60s so Kirk can nail a girl at a Beatles concert.

I mean, it's not like time travel has left us with only bad Trek. NuTrek, 4, Trouble with Tribbles sequel, City On the Edge of Forever, all absolutely aces smiley.

But saying the Feddies do time travel easy is missing out on half the relevant stuff, even ignoring the fact they are, generally, sissies.

Also ignoring how nasty the Warp makes time travel. And the risk of running into the GEoM in his prime.

[Forum Explorer]

And the risk of running into the GEoM in his prime.

This is the best point of why not to time travel against the Imperium. Things only get stonger the further back you go, or more chaotic. Go back to the Emperor and Golden Crusade? Get destroyed by the most powerful human ever. Go back further? Face the Eldar at the height of their empire. Go back further? The C'tan at the height of their empire. Go back further? The old ones at the height of their empire. Go back further? The start of the universe.

[Selrahc]

This is the best point of why not to time travel against the Imperium. Things only get stonger the further back you go, or more chaotic. Go back to the Emperor and Golden Crusade? Get destroyed by the most powerful human ever. Go back further? Face the Eldar at the height of their empire. Go back further? The C'tan at the height of their empire. Go back further? The old ones at the height of their empire. Go back further? The start of the universe.

The Imperium was actually at its strongest point ever only a little in setting time ago. Back before the Tau started expanding into Imperial space, before the new Tyranid fleets arrived, before the Thirteenth Black Crusade opened the influence of Chaos, before the Necrons started awakening in large numbers.

For the majority of M41, the Imperium was going from strength to strength. It started with the Macharian crusades, massively increasing the amount of planets under the Imperium's control. Over the rest of M41, it was consolidating its position. Quite successfully repelling Waaagh Armageddon, Hive Fleet Behemoth, and the Gothic War, with no major loss of territory.


But if you go before M41, the Imperium gets weaker. It had been gradually losing the territory won in the great crusade. Lapsing into a smaller more compact empire, and trying to rebuild from the destructive civil war in the Age of Apostasy.

Go back before M37 and you have the lead up to the Age of Apostasy, with rampantly excessive control from the Ecclesiarchy. Religious wars breaking out all around, and vicious power struggles between the Ecclesiarch and the other High Lords for ultimate power. Much less internal stability and cohesion.

Go back to the Aftermath of the Heresy and you have a leaderless and demoralized Imperium, beset on all sides by external foes looking to capitalize on the Imperium's weakness as well as the first great attacks by Chaos.

Go back to the Heresy itself, and witness the Great Crusade torn asunder by warring factions who hold far more hatred for each other than any external foe.

Go back before the great crusade, and you have a planet of warring techno-barbarians controlled by a demigod, reliant on gaining the help of the Tech-Priests of Mars to move beyond their world.

Go back before the humans, and you have the decadent last days of the Eldar empire. Teetering on the brink of collapse, even before the great fall.


I think going back in time is very likely to bring you to a point where the 40k universe is easier to conquer.
That isn't how the Federation works. But it would be a helpful strategy.



Really? Like who?

Ahem.

The Culture. Lensman. Gurren Laggan. The Celestials. Exalted.
For starters. I'm sure others can provide more.

[Fortuna]

Tippyverse comes close, depending on its extent. oWoD had some incredibly heavy hitters. Come to that, so does nWoD, although nothing like on the same scale. But to compete in this league, we're talking Physical God power levels. So yeah.

[profitofrage]

stuff

I love the fact that during your tracking back in time, you skipped the period where the great crusade was flourishing...where the Imperium of Man was at its absolute peak cutting giant swaths through the universe with little trouble or worry untill the heresy.
You also skipped the Dark Age of Technology...a point where "Mankind" Spread to the furthest reaches of space much like the humans in Star wars did..only with crazier and more badass technology. Also super cyborgs, not "droids" Im talking robots that rivaled Space Marines in power.

[Selrahc]

I love the fact that during your tracking back in time, you skipped the period where the great crusade was flourishing...where the Imperium of Man was at its absolute peak cutting giant swaths through the universe with little trouble or worry untill the heresy.


You also skipped the Dark Age of Technology...a point where "Mankind" Spread to the furthest reaches of space much like the humans in Star wars did..only with crazier and more badass technology. Also super cyborgs, not "droids" Im talking robots that rivaled Space Marines in power.

Well yes. I obviously did.

The statement was that going back in time just leads to the Imperium getting stronger... That statement isn't true.

I'm not claiming that the Imperium was always weaker going back in time, but at a lot of points, it was weaker. Most points that a time traveller could go to within ten millenia, will leave the Imperium substantially weaker. The Imperium is currently *just* below peak level of power. The only point before M41 that the Imperium was more powerful was at the height of the great crusade, and even then it was far less rich in material assets.

[hamishspence]

It is true that prior to M41 there were various shrinkages, cataclyms, and so on- in the 5E rulebook.

The Deathwatch book also mentions that the Jericho Sector fell out of the Imperium and became the Jericho Reach, in M40, after a major chaos ritual caused the capital worlds of the sector to be devoured by the warp storm now known as the Hadex Anomaly.

so- a case could be made that, between the era of rebuilding after the Heresy, and M41, the Imperium's borders contracted in a number of places.

[TheOasysMaster]

So.. basically a semi/automatic weapon that fires miniature rockets being fired by genetically enhanced super-soldiers.
Yeaaaaaaaaah, that's not good...


Again? Really? Is nobody tired of repeating w40k wins again? I mean come ON people the winner is obvious. Why with the rehashing of this dead horse
I'm a Star Wars fan...
But I'm definitely beginning to get the picture...
40K really takes the term, "Go big." to heart. DAMN...

[GloatingSwine]

The Imperium is currently *just* below peak level of power. The only point before M41 that the Imperium was more powerful was at the height of the great crusade, and even then it was far less rich in material assets.

I think you're missing a significant element of the 40k setting. You're missing all the Grimdark.

The Imperium is doomed, beset on all sides by rampaging Orks, duplicitous Eldar, and upstart Tau, riven from within by heresy and the taint of the ruinous powers, protected only from the horrors of the Warp consuming humanity like a midmorning snack by the divine will of the God Emperor of Man, the Golden Throne is broken and failing and no-one knows how to fix it, and some or all of the Adeptus Mechanicus are in thrall to the Void Dragon.

The galaxy is staring down the maw of an invading swarm of Tyranids, the merest tendril of which has thus far been extened into known space, and subject to the machinations of the ancient and immortal C'Tan whose Great Warding would seal off the immaterium forever and leave them free to harvest all life in the galaxy at whim.

Of course, there are people who are comparitively more doomed, the Eldar are just looking for a way to birth their new god of death to commit species wide suicide without Slaanesh eating their souls and the Tau would be crushed like a bug if any of the other races sat up and noticed them.

The grim darkness of the far future, wherein there is only war, is not a fun place to be for anyone.

Except Orks.


WAAAAAAAAAGGGHH!

[TheOasysMaster]

The Imperium is doomed, beset on all sides by rampaging Orks, duplicitous Eldar, and upstart Tau, riven from within by heresy and the taint of the ruinous powers, protected only from the horrors of the Warp consuming humanity like a midmorning snack by the divine will of the God Emperor of Man, the Golden Throne is broken and failing and no-one knows how to fix it, and some or all of the Adeptus Mechanicus are in thrall to the Void Dragon.

Wait...
So the Imperium is losing, fighting a futile battle, doomed and staring their destruction in the face...
Their actually at their weakest ever, and still, they'd be a major problem for the Galactic Empire. Whoa.

Just out of curiosity, how many systems does the Imperium hold?

[Lamech]

That isn't how the Federation works. But it would be a helpful strategy.Of course it is. The feds use time travel when they really need to. I'm sure that two evil empires exterminating whole worlds qualifies.



Really? Like who? Q of star trek, Sword of Truth with those silly boxes, Dr. Who, any setting with controllable time travel ('cause time travel); really 40K gets eaten by a lot of things.

[hamishspence]

The usual figure is round about a million, as of the present era. With a thousand chapters of a thousand marines, and comments like "There are less than one marine for every world in the Imperium, and yet they are enough".


The Galactic Empire started out with a figure of one million systems (Star Wars: A New Hope novelization) but since then, there have been suggestions that this is just the number of "recognized Imperial systems"- and that there are many more systems that contribute to the Imperial economy without actually being "officially" part of it.

Dark Empire provided a figure of about 12 million inhabited systems in the Known Galaxy (this might not count the Unknown Regions).

[GloatingSwine]

Wait...
So the Imperium is losing, fighting a futile battle, doomed and staring their destruction in the face...
Their actually at their weakest ever, and still, they'd be a major problem for the Galactic Empire. Whoa.

Just out of curiosity, how many systems does the Imperium hold?

Millions. The Imperium of Man is vast.

The Galactic Empire, by comparison, consists of 1.5 million member worlds, and 69 million colonies, protectorates, and vassal systems.

[TheOasysMaster]

Yup. Definitely does not look good for the Empire...


Q of star trek, Sword of Truth with those silly boxes, Dr. Who, any setting with controllable time travel ('cause time travel); really 40K gets eaten by a lot of things.
Oh yeah! Sword of Truth!
I LIKED the boxes and the books! it was the ultimate game of 'three cups and a ball' meets "russian roulette"! It was so twisted!

And yeah, Q, seems stacked.

Also, I fail to see how the Federation's means of Time Travel gets them a win...
How far back in time are they going?
We already know that the Imperium only gets stronger tthe further back in time you go...
But going into the Star Wars past is no picnic either...
What are they going to do?
Kill Palpatine before Order 66? Oh, they have to face the Grand Army of the Republic...
Perhaps they can go a little further back... Ah, what do you know? It's the Old Republic with Darth Revan, the military genius and a fully active Jedi Order running around...
Further back? Ah, Darth Bane and the Brotherhood of Darkness!
Surely going back in time more will help? Dang, a Sith Empire!
FURTHER! Well, would you look at that ANOTHER Sith Empire...
Okay, just a little further Captain, I'm sure we go back a few more hundred years, oh no, check it out, the Republic is being formed! Are we going to destroy the first Galactic Republic in order to defeat the Empire later?
Nevermind there are Mandalorians, Hutts and bountyhunters that can single handedly take out the Enterprise running around throughout Galactic History...
You know what...
I know what they can do...
They can totally go back in time and kill the human race! But they'd have to FIND it in a galaxy without hyperspace travel first...

No. Not gonna happen. There's a reason the Federation hasn't been counted out...
The Empire is like an ant to a man from the view of the Imperium.
The Federation is an ameoba.

[Urist]

Going to go against the grain here, but people seem to be underestimating the power of the blaster and Imperial firepower on the ground. Look at Hans DL-44, for example: a small pistol which packs the power to chew holes in starship bulkheads. And this is a sidearm. Blasters seem to be far effective than flashlights, and stormtrooper armor is certainly more effective than flak armor or carapace armor. And before people say "Sphess Mahrines!" there are actually not very many space marines. They would be present in maybe 1/100 of the conflicts.

[TheOasysMaster]

Han's handheld blaster has been customized I believe... But it doesn't burn through bulkheads, it leaves marks...

And yes, the blasters are stronger, but its more of the rate of fire and amount of shots. A blaster bolt, they're actually not called lasers, from a blaster pistol or blaster rifle hitting you, still burns through...

The problem is, that the 40K universe appears to have created armor that can withstand lasers, and can only be broken through by guns that literally fire grenades...

EDIT:
You know... Blaster Bolts are actually magnetic fields that contain the heat energy fired from the weapon. They're not actually lasers... Those are beam rifles...

The magnetic field keeps the bolt in a straight path and from dissipating to quickly, and it's also why lightsabres can block them, since its the same idea...

So, that raises my question...
Does the 40K armour block just lasers, or can it block the combined energy cocktail of a magnetic field and the heat energy contained within?
Star Wars armor, atleast in the Galactic Civil War era, cannot...

[Urist]

Han's handheld blaster has been customized I believe... But it doesn't burn through bulkheads, it leaves marks...

And yes, the blasters are stronger, but its more of the rate of fire and amount of shots. A blaster bolt, they're actually not called lasers, from a blaster pistol or blaster rifle hitting you, still burns through...

The problem is, that the 40K universe appears to have created armor that can withstand lasers, and can only be broken through by guns that literally fire grenades...

Yes, they have power armor, and Terminator armor. Which are both exceedingly rare outside of the Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, and Inquisitorial Retinues. And even if the blaster can't penetrate the armor, the major killer in that situation is heat. Blasters don't seem to kill through impact(although their impact is substantial), they appear to kill through thermal energy. Hit anything, even ceramite, with enough heat, and whatever's inside it will boil to death. Also, if encountering such armor, use disruptor rifles. Powerful enough to atomize men at hundreds of yards, a disruptor rifle will almost certainly punch through. Imperium of Man elite forces are more than a match for the troops of the Empire, but the Empire doesn't need to beat them most of the time. They just need to beat the IG, and we all know how well the guard do(which makes me angry. They should be more competent, damnit:smallfurious:).

[profitofrage]

Yes, they have power armor, and Terminator armor. Which are both exceedingly rare outside of the Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, and Inquisitorial Retinues. And even if the blaster can't penetrate the armor, the major killer in that situation is heat. Blasters don't seem to kill through impact(although their impact is substantial), they appear to kill through thermal energy. Hit anything, even ceramite, with enough heat, and whatever's inside it will boil to death. Also, if encountering such armor, use disruptor rifles. Powerful enough to atomize men at hundreds of yards, a disruptor rifle will almost certainly punch through. Imperium of Man elite forces are more than a match for the troops of the Empire, but the Empire doesn't need to beat them most of the time. They just need to beat the IG, and we all know how well the guard do(which makes me angry. They should be more competent, damnit:smallfurious:).

What makes you think there NOT competant? People say IG are bad...no..just in there setting there fighting enemies like the elder "each warrior is trained constantly in what they do till they have perfected said artform" Or orcs...beings who dont NEED the organs they have inside them. Couple this with the notion that commanders KNOW theres 45 more "jim jacobs" waiting around the corner and you get a "competant soldier" dicing machine. The IG are comparable "in skill" to the modern military there just leagues ahead technologically.

[Lamech]

Also, I fail to see how the Federation's means of Time Travel gets them a win...
How far back in time are they going?
We already know that the Imperium only gets stronger tthe further back in time you go...No, I'm pretty sure they are a good bit weaker at times. Like in the year say 60000 B.C. Or 13 A.D. Or 2000 A.D.



They can totally go back in time and kill the human race! But they'd have to FIND it in a galaxy without hyperspace travel first...Luckily time travel is makes it a snap. Build a probe/automated ship send it back in time to scout, and have it return at about when you sent it out. Repeat ad nauseum. If you screw up and lose the probe you can fix it with time travel. 'Cause time travel.
I also note that the Feds would probably do something like "relocating" the races to some new planet during the modern times to get rid of them. Sure its a prime directive violation, but murdering planets tends to make people take semi-extreme measures; they might even justify it by providing them medicine tech or something. Although I suspect their preferred option would be to explain the innane power of say phase-cloak, the genesis device, and time travel ect; then ask for a nice peaceful solution were no one is erased from history.

[GloatingSwine]

Luckily time travel is makes it a snap. Build a probe/automated ship send it back in time to scout, and have it return at about when you sent it out. Repeat ad nauseum. If you screw up and lose the probe you can fix it with time travel. 'Cause time travel.

You will now demonstrate that the Federation has the ability to do this.

Oh wait, they don't, do they. And if they did they wouldn't have gotten their asses kicked for five years against the Dominion.

[GloatingSwine]

Does the 40K armour block just lasers, or can it block the combined energy cocktail of a magnetic field and the heat energy contained within?

Space Marine armour can stand up to a lot of things in moderation, but enough fire, even from simple stubbers (think modern firearms), will overcome it eventually.

Space Marines aren't invincible.

[profitofrage]

Actually thats very much wrong. If DH is anything to go by, no amount of lasgun fire can harm a Space Marine....ever. In fact 95% of the time a frag grenade cant either.

Best check your facts.

EDit:
Also includes stubbers..heavy stubbers..all pistols..mortal boltguns...hell 90% of the firepower "mortals" use that arnt heavy weapons.

EDIT again:
Granted thats RPG mechanics. but the basic idea is that the amount of sustained firepower youd need to amass is very large...and the space marine would see it and go "oh i see....well ill just dodge it then...or strike from the skies....or missle them."

[Fjolnir]

Yup. Definitely does not look good for the Empire...


Oh yeah! Sword of Truth!
I LIKED the boxes and the books! it was the ultimate game of 'three cups and a ball' meets "russian roulette"! It was so twisted!

And yeah, Q, seems stacked.

Also, I fail to see how the Federation's means of Time Travel gets them a win...
How far back in time are they going?
We already know that the Imperium only gets stronger tthe further back in time you go...
But going into the Star Wars past is no picnic either...
What are they going to do?
Kill Palpatine before Order 66? Oh, they have to face the Grand Army of the Republic...
Perhaps they can go a little further back... Ah, what do you know? It's the Old Republic with Darth Revan, the military genius and a fully active Jedi Order running around...
Further back? Ah, Darth Bane and the Brotherhood of Darkness!
Surely going back in time more will help? Dang, a Sith Empire!
FURTHER! Well, would you look at that ANOTHER Sith Empire...
Okay, just a little further Captain, I'm sure we go back a few more hundred years, oh no, check it out, the Republic is being formed! Are we going to destroy the first Galactic Republic in order to defeat the Empire later?
Nevermind there are Mandalorians, Hutts and bountyhunters that can single handedly take out the Enterprise running around throughout Galactic History...
You know what...
I know what they can do...
They can totally go back in time and kill the human race! But they'd have to FIND it in a galaxy without hyperspace travel first...

No. Not gonna happen. There's a reason the Federation hasn't been counted out...
The Empire is like an ant to a man from the view of the Imperium.
The Federation is an ameoba.

Here it is, you go back in time on the imperium side to just prior to when the Emperor finds the Void Dragon on Mars, trading the technology to build a great empire to him in return for adopting some feddie ideals. Warn him about the Hourus Hersey as well. This will allow them to dodge the issues created by the warp storms at the end of the dark age of technology, if not bypass that point entirely.

The Empire is a bit more nebulous, you need to attack Palpy at the events of the phantom menace, any later and he's rapidly approaching Emperor with no chance of slowing down. With him out of the way they still have military might, but the grand army of the republic is not going to be slaying the Jedi any time soon.

As to what I said about The Dominion, I meant fairest fight. they're the largest militaristic empire we know of in the Trekverse and manage to gain a decent foot hold in the alpha quadrant depite being vastly under equipped

[Weezer]

Actually thats very much wrong. If DH is anything to go by, no amount of lasgun fire can harm a Space Marine....ever. In fact 95% of the time a frag grenade cant either.

Best check your facts.

EDit:
Also includes stubbers..heavy stubbers..all pistols..mortal boltguns...hell 90% of the firepower "mortals" use that arnt heavy weapons.

EDIT again:
Granted thats RPG mechanics. but the basic idea is that the amount of sustained firepower youd need to amass is very large...and the space marine would see it and go "oh i see....well ill just dodge it then...or strike from the skies....or missle them."

The major problem with determining the actual strength of the IoM is the inherent unreliability of the canon. Each codex has stories in it of their respective army smashing through all opposition. On the specific discussion of the strength of space marine armor you have space marine novels/short stories where a single squad of 8 terminators cleanses an entire space hulk filled with mutants, orcs and genestealers with barely a casualty while a guard story might have a space marine killed with a barrage or two of lasgun fire. 40k canon is notoriously biased towards whichever side the story is writing from.

[TheOasysMaster]

I also note that the Feds would probably do something like "relocating" the races to some new planet during the modern times to get rid of them. Sure its a prime directive violation, but murdering planets tends to make people take semi-extreme measures; they might even justify it by providing them medicine tech or something. Although I suspect their preferred option would be to explain the innane power of say phase-cloak, the genesis device, and time travel ect; then ask for a nice peaceful solution were no one is erased from history.
There are too many reasons why this would fail...
In order to stop the Galactic Emprie from existing, they'd have to stop humans from evolving so Palpatine could never exist...
They'd then have to make sure the various Force-users could never meet in order to create the Jedi, and thus the Sith...
So, that would mean the moving of every single Force-using race...
Aaaand, on top of that, they'd have to sabotage the proliferation of hyperspace travel.

All of those are highly illegitimate actions to defeat a legal government.
And they'd be hard to do due to the many occurences of those events...


Actually thats very much wrong. If DH is anything to go by, no amount of lasgun fire can harm a Space Marine....ever. In fact 95% of the time a frag grenade cant either.

Space Marine armour can stand up to a lot of things in moderation, but enough fire, even from simple stubbers (think modern firearms), will overcome it eventually.
But can it withstand a blaster bolt? Laser guns are lasers...
Blaster bolts fire concentrations of 'particle beam energy', a mixture of 'high-energy particles and intense light', are a considerable improvement on lasers.



The Empire is a bit more nebulous, you need to attack Palpy at the events of the phantom menace, any later and he's rapidly approaching Emperor with no chance of slowing down. With him out of the way they still have military might, but the grand army of the republic is not going to be slaying the Jedi any time soon.
Hmmm, I supposed that would work...
But assuming the nobody in the Star Wars galaxy was able to figure out that Palpatine was central to it all, how would the Federation?
And keep in mind, at that time, he's still a Sith Lord, with Darth Maul at his hand, Dooku on speed-dial and the Separatist army at his beck-and-call.

[TheOasysMaster]

The major problem with determining the actual strength of the IoM is the inherent unreliability of the canon. Each codex has stories in it of their respective army smashing through all opposition. On the specific discussion of the strength of space marine armor you have space marine novels/short stories where a single squad of 8 terminators cleanses an entire space hulk filled with mutants, orcs and genestealers with barely a casualty while a guard story might have a space marine killed with a barrage or two of lasgun fire. 40k canon is notoriously biased towards whichever side the story is writing from.
I've been assuming you guys were using the game for stats and information.
Star Wars has the same problem, but I figured 40K would avoid it due to the nature of how its played.

[profitofrage]

The major problem with determining the actual strength of the IoM is the inherent unreliability of the canon. Each codex has stories in it of their respective army smashing through all opposition. On the specific discussion of the strength of space marine armor you have space marine novels/short stories where a single squad of 8 terminators cleanses an entire space hulk filled with mutants, orcs and genestealers with barely a casualty while a guard story might have a space marine killed with a barrage or two of lasgun fire. 40k canon is notoriously biased towards whichever side the story is writing from.

This is because there the codex's :P there half history and half propoganda.
There is plenty of "rough guidelines" in determining the power of something in 40k. Indeed the RPG is a good place to start, the many novels the next best place to turn.
And I doubt Star Wars is oh so much more reliable. Clone troopers are the best troops there can be in attack of the clones...then suddenly there the bad guys and couldnt hit a barn with a guided missle.

[Geddoe]

Really? Like who?

Anima Beyond Fantasy characters could probably wreck it, if given some time. Gaia would likely not fare so well, but a more generic setting with the same rules. In comparing my Anima character to my Scion character at the gaming table the other week, I don't think my Scion character could ever hurt my Anima character if she didn't want to be hurt. My Anima character is level 4.

[Surrealistik]

Actually thats very much wrong. If DH is anything to go by, no amount of lasgun fire can harm a Space Marine....ever. In fact 95% of the time a frag grenade cant either.

Don't forget Righteous Fury; with like 10-20 Guardsman to 1 Spesh Mahrine, and autofire it's gonna happen.

[GloatingSwine]

But can it withstand a blaster bolt? Laser guns are lasers...
Blaster bolts fire concentrations of 'particle beam energy', a mixture of 'high-energy particles and intense light', are a considerable improvement on lasers.


It would eventually fall to weapons equivalent to modern firearms. remember, fluff is canon, everything else is altered for gameplay balance and can't be used to determine anything, otherwise space marines would have a 1 in 6 chance to die of a twisted ankle (failing a Dangerous Terrain test). How do you think it is going to interact with things more powerful than modern firearms.

Do try to apply basic logic.

[TheOasysMaster]

Okay then...
So the armies of the Imperium can be killed with blaster bolts.
The only problem is, while the Storm Troopers are firing away, the Imperium are firing back explosive grenades. Still gonna be a bloody battle.

[profitofrage]

Don't forget Righteous Fury; with like 10-20 Guardsman to 1 Spesh Mahrine, and autofire it's gonna happen.

Rightous fury means an extra hit. This means nothing as the damage of the hit at MAX cannot harm an SM.

10000000000 rightous furies just means 100000000000D10 +3 each individual D10+3 first being negated by 18. therefore :P space marines in DW can survive infinite bullets.

[Sacrieur]

This is because there the codex's :P there half history and half propoganda.
There is plenty of "rough guidelines" in determining the power of something in 40k. Indeed the RPG is a good place to start, the many novels the next best place to turn.
And I doubt Star Wars is oh so much more reliable. Clone troopers are the best troops there can be in attack of the clones...then suddenly there the bad guys and couldnt hit a barn with a guided missle.

This is something I've never liked. Clone troopers are supposed to be genetically enhanced versions of someone who is all ready incredibly genetically favored (Jango Fett). They have been trained like mad for ten years. Theoretically, they're the perfect soldier. Yet George Lucas comes along and creates a perfect soldier who can't do a damned thing.

That said, there's some really good stuff out in the literature that really shows clone trooper's tenacity. Clone troopers adrift in space will put themselves in the path of fighters when they have no other options, and they'll do it with pride.

I can't quite agree with the whoel Jedi vs. explosive grenades thing. Jedi have been known to have grenades and thermal detonators thrown at them all the bloody time, they just slap it away with the force. Yoda has even been described as moving rockets and missiles with the force so they miss him while protecting a bunch of injured troopers.

The problem with the Empire vs. Republic is that the Republic had no navy to speak of. There aren't too many clones available, and I'm sure that the IoM would decimate them with superior numbers, even with the Jedi assisting.

---

The Empire shoots itself in the food with xenocide, and has Imperial Stupidity. They're tactically moronic, incompetent, and boastful idiots, who think they're superior and always underestimate their opponent.

It's been written that several Star Destroyers and a huge fleet were obliterated by a handful of Mon Calamari ships. In any real conflict against a comparable fleet they would be destroyed.

That said, the IoM would demolish the Empire.

---

The New Republic is quite a different story. They have the benefit of a large military as per the Empire, but none of the stupidity. The Jedi are on the rise again, so their support always helps with several crippling covert missions (Jedi were never really suited for battle).

The Mon Calamari really stepped up the game in the ship department, especially with the creation of the Star Defender. With the Mon Calamari, largely viewed as the greatest shipbuilders in the galaxy, and with their own tactically brilliant minds combined with Jedi insight an incredibly talented and deadly fleet is created.

The New Republic vs. IoM would be a spectacular battle, but I could see the IoM demolishing the Empire and the Old Republic.

[GloatingSwine]

Okay then...
So the armies of the Imperium can be killed with blaster bolts.
The only problem is, while the Storm Troopers are firing away, the Imperium are firing back explosive grenades. Still gonna be a bloody battle.

Except the Empire only has to fight where and when it decides to, because they hold all the cards in terms of strategic mobility. So whilst individual land battles will be bloody, they will always be fought where the Empire can win. Imperium ships are forced come out of warp weeks out of a system, so they can be picked off by hit and run attacks without ever landing troops, and the Empire can attack as and when it pleases, diverting the Imperium's resources with feints and crippling it's economy by blockading its worlds.

This is not a war the Imperium can win, even if it is powerful in battle, it is helpless against an enemy with equivalent weaponry and Hyperdrive.

[Fan]

Except the Empire only has to fight where and when it decides to, because they hold all the cards in terms of strategic mobility. So whilst individual land battles will be bloody, they will always be fought where the Empire can win. Imperium ships are forced come out of warp weeks out of a system, so they can be picked off by hit and run attacks without ever landing troops, and the Empire can attack as and when it pleases, diverting the Imperium's resources with feints and crippling it's economy by blockading its worlds.

This is not a war the Imperium can win, even if it is powerful in battle, it is helpless against an enemy with equivalent weaponry and Hyperdrive.

Except again, there are PLENTY of systems that have ground to orbit defense systems of every planet, and neighboring systems can send ship support in a matter of hours as opposed to the weeks you are suggesting.

Couple that with the complete lack of the Empire's willingness to auto destruct EVERY planet they come into contact with (If I remember correctly, it takes something like Nar Shadda to authorize a base delta zero.), thus they will ALWAYS try to capture before they completely doom nuke anything that isn't Holy Terra.

And around holy Terra are literally MILLIONS of Titan Legions, Orbital Defense Platforms, and Strike Cruisers.

There is no way even if the Empire brought the entireity of the Imperial Navy, and the Death Star, at once that they could take Holy Terra. No. Nope. Not happening.

[Lamech]

You will now demonstrate that the Federation has the ability to do this.I guess I will then. An overview on the trek time travel powers (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Time_travel).
Kirk alone apparently violated the time line 17 times (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Temporal_Investigations), and the feds apparently have a department to monitor these things.




All of those are highly illegitimate actions to defeat a legal government.
And they'd be hard to do due to the many occurences of those events...They will obviously prefer a peaceful solution that doesn't involve rewriting history. Or failing that minimal rewriting of history. But the feds if they really need to be they are utter jackasses. See section 31 (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Section_31).


But assuming the nobody in the Star Wars galaxy was able to figure out that Palpatine was central to it all, how would the Federation?Basic guess work. You see Emperors are frequently central to empires. In fact usually the first emperor of an empire is often the guy who made it. Also of note when a republic falls into despotism usually its the leader who does it. It should be fairly easy to figure out in retrospect that Palpy is responsible for something.

[Fan]

It doesn't seem to me like Time Travel in Star Trek works on anything more than 1 or so ships at a time. So.. It's completely irrelevant, considering that you can only go back so far before it becomes meaningless, and you'd have 10 millenia in which a basic wrong guess could land you in the middle of the Emperor's, Darth Malek's, Darth Revans, or any other number of nasties where it is certifiable to say that the ship who tried time travel would promptly explode.

[Selrahc]

I guess I will then. An overview on the trek time travel powers.

If you're saying an event like a war against the Imperium might be the thing that pushes the Federation into developing Time Travel into an effective technological weapon... well you may be right. The Federation in the future is known to be an effective time travelling group. It's probable that they were pushed into the role by circumstance.

But as it stands for the entirety of the TV shows, time travel is something that mostly happens accidentally and is to be avoided. Even in a war that threatened to wipe out the Alpha Quadrant, time travel was not deployed as a weapon.



I think you're missing a significant element of the 40k setting. You're missing all the Grimdark.

Uh.. no? Grimdark is the premise behind the setting. It has little to do with assessing the relative power of the Imperium across its fictional history.

The Imperium has not been in a continual state of decline since its creation. Some times(aftermath of the Heresy, Age of Apostasy) brought it to the brink of destruction. Other times (Macharian crusades, centuries following Age of Apostasy) are relatively good periods. The Imperium as it is right now, is probably at one of its highest ebbs of strength, both territorially and through internal cohesion. What makes this grimdark, is that a wave of foes are gearing up across the galaxy to tear them down.



And around holy Terra are literally MILLIONS of Titan Legions, Orbital Defense Platforms, and Strike Cruisers.

No, there most certainly aren't.

Battlefleet Solar is composed of several hundred capital ships, and lots of smaller vessels. The largest single fleet in the Imperium. Although the Battlefleet is also meant as a guard for the rest of the Solar Segmentum, large parts of it will always be guarding the Sol system.

The idea of there being millions of titan legions is quite blatantly ludicrous. There are about a million Space Marines across the totality of the Imperium. You're alleging that the Titan legions of Terra outnumber the entirety of the space marines by several dozen to one.
There are no hard and fast figures for the Titans guarding Earth. One would imagine that a lot of legions make their home on Mars. Several others would be dedicated defenders of Terra, or Titan.
All told, there are could be around a thousand titans hanging around the Sol system. Although possibly substantially less.


Orbital platforms... probably around 10 big orbitals would be a good estimate for just Terra. Cadia didn't have 10, and it is the lynchpin fortress world of the Imperium.

Remember, the Imperium is in a massive hot-war on multiple fronts. Defending a system that is truly in the heartland of the Imperium from attack is mostly academic. Nobody will be attacking Sol. If they do, then there will be warning. If there is warning, then probably a lot of other defenders can be found.

[Fan]

Millions MAY have been an exaggeration.:smalltongue:

But there are still more than anything the Empire can deal with in a straight up fight around the homeworld alone.

[byaku rai]

I've been absent from this monster I've created for awhile because of research. My findings:

1. Tactical hyperdrive use is a no. Computers have to calculate the precise trajectory of the jump beforehand, and even the smallest jump takes a gigantic amount of energy. Any ship which attempted to fight immediately after a jump would be fighting at much less than full capacity. The concept of coming out of hyperspace guns blazing is, while suitably dramatic, just not viable in such a battle.

2. The emphasis in tactics in GE is on fighter strikes, rather than capital ships. In IoM, fighter strikes are tactical lunacy because even the smallest capital ship has flak screens and point defense weapons more than powerful enough to wreck any incoming fighter or bomber. IoM also has a large emphasis on boarding tactics, something which the GE reserves for ships it doesn't want to kill immediately for whatever reason.

3. As far as I can tell, lasguns and blasters are approximately equal in firepower. Which makes Stormtrooper Armor and Carapace Armor about equal. Both are contained, self-sealed environments with the ability to take quite a bit of damage before breaching or failing. Stormtrooper Armor gets this resistance by being set up to instantly disperse thermal energy from an enemy weapon throughout the affected portion. Carapace armor does the same thing while also being insanely tough and resistant to conventional weaponry.

4. Power Armour is nice, but it's really one of the less important tools at a Space Marine's disposal. What really makes them superior to normal humans (i.e. stormtroopers) is their greatly increased strength and speed. They don't have to sit still and let the armor take the blaster hit. They can dodge it and chainsword the offending trooper from behind before the rest of the squad even realized the first shot missed.

5. Even though individually, stormtroopers seem to be somewhat better equipped than standard IG, the power of numbers is greatly against them. Even without bringing SMs into the equation, stormtroopers are going to be completely outnumbered and outgunned in any engagement with IG.

6. Even with their speed advantage (hyperspace), GE won't be able to attack any important IoM worlds, because every world that matters is already surrounded by various ships (just about all of which will have at least some weaponry, just remember the setting) and has anti-orbital defenses which can one-shot small capital ships (like the standard Star Destroyer).

7. Ion cannon weaponry, which GE has some of, doesn't seem to have an answer within IoM canon. However, Ion Cannons are a notoriously unreliable technology in laboratory conditions, nevermind battlefield conditions. Aligning the crystals to allow use of the weapon is a task too difficult for anything but a repair droid (R2-D2) or a Force-sensitive human to do.

8. On the subject of the Force, Jedi and the like are just low-powered psykers. Even the vaunted Sith Lightning is one of the least manifestations of power in the IoM universe. And the IoM has psykers to spare...

[TheOasysMaster]

Basic guess work. You see Emperors are frequently central to empires. In fact usually the first emperor of an empire is often the guy who made it. Also of note when a republic falls into despotism usually its the leader who does it. It should be fairly easy to figure out in retrospect that Palpy is responsible for something.
And so, even if they could find him...
You're assuming scientists, because that's what the cre of the Enterprise is, scientists, not soldiers, but scientists, will be able to locate Palpatine, a Sith Lord, avoid him detecting them through the Force, circumvent any security measures the Republic would guarantee him a citizen and a Senator, and kill him.
A Dark Lord of the Sith.
Sorry, the Dark Lord of the Sith, who once again, has Darth Maul, the entire Separatist army, and his own Dark Side powers at his disposal, will be killed by the scientist crew of a single Federation ship.
Yes. That's totally gonna happen assuming they can even manage to find the correct point in time and the correct part of the galaxy.


Tactical hyperdrive use is a no. Computers have to calculate the precise trajectory of the jump beforehand, and even the smallest jump takes a gigantic amount of energy. Any ship which attempted to fight immediately after a jump would be fighting at much less than full capacity. The concept of coming out of hyperspace guns blazing is, while suitably dramatic, just not viable in such a battle.
This isn't true. If the Empire first locates Imperium forces, they can preprogram the hyperdrive coordinates, which is a canonical occurence. Tacttical use of hyperdrive is only stressed in the case of large stellar bodies where gravity must be considered...
In fact, tactical use of hyperdrive is so important, special ships were created to artificially replicate these gravitational effects and pull ships out of hyperspace in know hyperspace routes.



The emphasis in tactics in GE is on fighter strikes, rather than capital ships.
What? Even in the movies, it's always been about the capital ships! Except that one time with that exhaust port...
The Galactic Empire makes efficient use of it's capital ships and its fighters as the situation dictates.


IoM also has a large emphasis on boarding tactics, something which the GE reserves for ships it doesn't want to kill immediately for whatever reason.
Can't board if the Empire uses hit'and'run tactics, something they're very capable of.



As far as I can tell, lasguns and blasters are approximately equal in firepower.
Except they're not. Lasguns fire lasers, and blasters are an improvement.


Power Armour is nice, but it's really one of the less important tools at a Space Marine's disposal. What really makes them superior to normal humans (i.e. stormtroopers) is their greatly increased strength and speed. They don't have to sit still and let the armor take the blaster hit. They can dodge it and chainsword the offending trooper from behind before the rest of the squad even realized the first shot missed.
These are the Marines... Not common soldiers.


Even though individually, stormtroopers seem to be somewhat better equipped than standard IG, the power of numbers is greatly against them. Even without bringing SMs into the equation, stormtroopers are going to be completely outnumbered and outgunned in any engagement with IG.
Definitely them there...
The Empire wouldn't have time to change its doctrines to support droid complements or clone enough or draft enough, especially if this is a heat of the moment thing...


Ion cannon weaponry, which GE has some of, doesn't seem to have an answer within IoM canon. However, Ion Cannons are a notoriously unreliable technology in laboratory conditions, nevermind battlefield conditions. Aligning the crystals to allow use of the weapon is a task too difficult for anything but a repair droid (R2-D2) or a Force-sensitive human to do.
The Galactic Empire has ready access to any ion weaponry it needs.
Where did you get the idea it wasn't readily usable? They use ion propulsion technology to move their combat fighters, the TIEs, in space.
And even if the Empire needed droids, it would get and have them.


On the subject of the Force, Jedi and the like are just low-powered psykers. Even the vaunted Sith Lightning is one of the least manifestations of power in the IoM universe. And the IoM has psykers to spare...
Definitely true...


This is not a war the Imperium can win, even if it is powerful in battle, it is helpless against an enemy with equivalent weaponry and Hyperdrive.
I think it's the other way around...
I think the Imperium is favored for a decisive and clear victory agaisnt the Empire...
The only way for victory on the Empire's part is through a strategy I'm devising, the kind of thing Thrawn would come up with, but I'm waiting for profitofrage to further educate me on the nature of 40K and the Imperium before I produce it...
But it has to do with hyperdrive...

[GloatingSwine]

Except they're not. Lasguns fire lasers, and blasters are an improvement.


Firepower and operating mechanism are not linked. Novel descriptions of lasgun effects roughly match depictions of blaster fire, they are equivalent weapons.

[Selrahc]

Vs. Threads against the Empire are interesting, because there is always the elephant in the room of its massive internal instability. Left without any external crisis, the Empire will (partially within the EU) collapse based purely on its internal weakness within a generation of its creation. Any versus thread against the Empire that posits the victory of the Empire, is in fact arguing that the faction faced against the Empire will actually be worse at attacking them than doing absolutely nothing at all.

With the entire covert arm of the Imperium turned to the task of wrecking the Empire, I think that they wouldn't last long. With a widescale rebellion already waiting in the wings, what the Imperium really brings to the table are some deadly elite special agents and incredible funding.


Can't board if the Empire uses hit'and'run tactics, something they're very capable of.


Of course you can.

Boarding isn't done by hooking ship to ship, like some sort of age of sail pirates. Boarding torpedoes and teleport arrays are the order of the day. Neither of which will be massively impeded by hit and run tactics.



Except they're not. Lasguns fire lasers, and blasters are an improvement.

Let's not go down that route.

That is the route that leads to people saying that "Turbolasers can't do squat to Federation ships, because they're just firing lasers"

Amount of power per shot is far more important than whether or not something is a laser.

[GloatingSwine]

7. Ion cannon weaponry, which GE has some of, doesn't seem to have an answer within IoM canon. However, Ion Cannons are a notoriously unreliable technology in laboratory conditions, nevermind battlefield conditions. Aligning the crystals to allow use of the weapon is a task too difficult for anything but a repair droid (R2-D2) or a Force-sensitive human to do.



Errr.... No. We see an Ion Cannon used in the films, the Rebels use it to disable the Star Destroyers temporarily to allow their transports to escape Hoth in Empire Strikes Back.

Y'see, the reason you think the IoM can win this is because you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Star Wars. Their starship weapons are equivalent at worst, but their strategic and tactical mobility is orders of magnitude better. Palpatine's poxy little shuttle managed to get him from Coruscant to Mustafar in a matter of at most hours, remebering that Anakin was on the edge of a magma river and on fire at the time, even with the Force he wouldn't live long, and that's a distance of some 40,000 light years. A Battlegroup of Star Destroyers can strike two targets on opposites sides of the Imperium in the same day, the IoM cannot make them fight where they do not wish to fight because they are too slow. It took six weeks for Ghazhgkull's invasion force to reach Armageddon after entering the system, and there was no significant response from the Imperial Navy, no reinforcements arrived to try to stop the fleet before it could land. There's never going to be a fair standup fight between IoM and GE forces, there's going to be a series of intensely one sided engagements where the IoM is horribly outnumbered until the Imperial Navy is defeated and the planets of the Imperium of Man are isolated, it's forge worlds starving for food and raw materials, and it's mighty armies grounded.

[TheOasysMaster]

Let's not go down that route.

That is the route that leads to people saying that "Turbolasers can't do squat to Federation ships, because they're just firing lasers"

Amount of power per shot is far more important than whether or not something is a laser.
Turbolasers, despite popular naming convention is not just a laser...


The turbolaser was a heavy laser cannon equipped with large banks of capacitors, allowing them to build up and store far more powerful energy bursts than standard cannons. These capacitors gave huge energy bursts to the beam, greatly increasing its power over standard laser cannons. They also helped power the galven coils in the barrels of turbolasers. First, a particle beam was generated in the manner standard of blasters and laser cannons. Then even more power was achieved by guiding this laser cannon particle-beam through another stream of energized Tibanna Gas (besides the one used in generating the initial beam, since laser cannons work on the same principle as blasters) to increase its power. The extra capacitors in a turbolaser that store huge amounts of raw energy then contributed to the beam by energizing it even further as it moved to the turbolaser's barrel. The resulting beam carried roughly three or more times the energy of a standard laser cannon beam.

It then passed through a set of galven coils located in the turbolaser's barrel, even further increasing the beam's power, and allowing it to pierce the defenses of heavily protected targets.
Turbolasers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolaser)

And besides... The Empire wouldn't need to use turbolasers to bring down a Federation ship...
Jango Fett could do it himself in Slave I.

Long post...


Firepower and operating mechanism are not linked. Novel descriptions of lasgun effects roughly match depictions of blaster fire, they are equivalent weapons.

The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other las weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion2. It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour). Most designs have iron sights mounted along the top of the weapon. It is powered by a small, rechargeable power pack located beneath the weapon, in front of the trigger guard. The pack can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight. It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade.

Laser weapons emit a highly focused beam of light.



A blaster (also addressed as a gun) was a ranged weapon that fired bursts of particle beam energy called blaster bolts from a replaceable power pack. The most commonly used weapon in the galaxy, blasters' intense beams consisting of compacted high-energy particles and intense light could kill or paralyze their target, depending on their setting.

A laser beam was a coherent shaft of light. When referring to light (or any other wave pattern for that matter), coherence refers to the pattern's "sameness" in multiple waves. In other words, each light wave emitted from the laser device had the same wavelength and amplitude as all other waves emitted from the same device, and all "crests" and "troughs" of every wave were aligned with the others.
Lasers were generated by introducing energy to a medium, the substance used to generate the beams. Tibanna gas was a frequently favored medium. When an atom of the medium was excited by energy, one or more of its electrons would "jump" to a higher energy level. When the atom stabilized (the point at which the electrons return to their original energy levels), a photon was released. A photon was a "packet" of energy that traveled in both a wave-like and a particulate manner, giving it a high energy level, as well as a high damage rating. Some types of sniper rifles fired invisible bolts of energy by using a special type of blaster gas. This weapon was very useful for acting from concealment, especially if the user were wearing a portable stealth field generator or sound dampener.

Blasters were a considerable improvement over the archaic laser design. Instead of a coherent beam of laser-heated plasma, the blaster fired a highly compressed, focused high-energy particle beam that was very deadly to most creatures. The energy that made up the blaster bolt depended on the type of blaster being used.

The less common blaster was a plasma based design, like those used by the Grand Army of the Republic. Plasma-based blasters were effective against all targets, but even more so against droids because of the nature of plasma as a superheated, ionized gas. Droids were vulnerable to ion energy, so ion weapons were a natural choice against a droid army. This explains the use of the BlasTech DC-series in the Clone wars.

In plasma-based blasters, a high-energy gas (tibanna gas, for example, used in the BlasTech DC-series) would move from the gas chamber into another chamber where it was altered into a plasma state. It was then released from a magnetic "bottle" effect through the collimating components. This turned the mass of plasma gas and energy into a coherent energy beam as a coherent energy bolt of light and plasma. This combination of light and plasma formed the deadly bolt fired from a blaster.

The more common type was the blaster that fired a high energy particle beam that was more deadly to humanoids and other biological targets than superheated plasma (which was quite deadly anyway), but it was still effective enough against droids to put a B1 battle droid down and keep it down. Particle-beam types were also more efficient because they used less blaster gas to produce the beam than is necessary to form a plasma bolt, as plasma, as a state of matter, requires a far greater amount of energy to produce.

In particle-beam based blasters, like the E-11 used by stormtroopers, a small amount of high-energy gas moved from the Heter valve to the chamber commonly called the XCiter. In the XCiter chamber, the gas was energized by the power pack, then passed into the actuating blaster module, which, when assisted by the components in the barrel, processed the now extremely high-energy gas into a compressed beam of intense energy particles, coupled with intense light, which generated the deadly high-energy particle beam fired from most blasters. In these blasters, the combination of super hot laser-light and a compressed bolt of intense energy particles formed the deadly bolt.

Han Solo's illegally modified DL-44 heavy blaster pistol.
Added by Borsk Fey'lyaMost personal blasters had two kinds of ammunition: a gas cartridge and a power cell. Less powerful weapons, like the Drearian Defense Conglomerate Defender sporting blaster pistol, relied largely on the power cell and used only a small quantity of gas, while very powerful weapons, like the illegal Tenloss DX-2 disruptor pistol, used much larger amounts of gas. Still other weapons, namely those dating from earlier times, employed a kind of removable power cell/cartridge which supplied enough energy (though at weaker levels) to make total expenditure seldom.

Blaster bolts usually dissipated in a small, but violent explosion of extreme heat and force upon contact with an unshielded surface, sometimes leaving blast points. Weapons such as Han Solo's DL-44 heavy blaster pistol and the E-11 blaster rifle could cause incredible destruction, and had the power to blow huge chunks from stone walls and smaller holes and pockmarks out of durasteel bulkheads, as seen in Han Solo and Luke Skywalker's raid on Detention Block AA 23. An ion accelerator uses an electrical charge to stun or kill enemies.
Citations:
The Lasgun (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun)
Blaster (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blaster)

In short, they're different, and the blaster is superior.
They may both kill you if you're butt naked...
But if 40K armor can stop lasgun lasters, the blaster bolt should still make it through...


Boarding torpedoes and teleport arrays are the order of the day. Neither of which will be massively impeded by hit and run tactics.
The torpedoes I'm skeptical about...
But the teleport array...
How does that work? And can one teleport through shields? Does warhammer have shields?
And what happens if the ship jumps to hyperspace before it can be captured?
D=


Their starship weapons are equivalent at worst, but their strategic and tactical mobility is orders of magnitude better.
Go hyperspace! D=

Palpatine's poxy little shuttle managed to get him from Coruscant to Mustafar in a matter of at most hours, remebering that Anakin was on the edge of a magma river and on fire at the time, even with the Force he wouldn't live long, and that's a distance of some 40,000 light years.
PRIVATE SHIPS OF CITIZENS can do the same thing!


A Battlegroup of Star Destroyers can strike two targets on opposites sides of the Imperium in the same day, the IoM cannot make them fight where they do not wish to fight because they are too slow.
Yupyup. And even if the Imperium were to capture a Star Destroyer, they couldn't JUST adapt the technology...


It took six weeks for Ghazhgkull's invasion force to reach Armageddon after entering the system, and there was no significant response from the Imperial Navy, no reinforcements arrived to try to stop the fleet before it could land.
Are these numbers ACCURATE?
:smalltongue:


There's never going to be a fair standup fight between IoM and GE forces, there's going to be a series of intensely one sided engagements where the IoM is horribly outnumbered until the Imperial Navy is defeated and the planets of the Imperium of Man are isolated, it's forge worlds starving for food and raw materials, and it's mighty armies grounded.
Yeah, that's what I've been thinking...
Thrawn would save the day...
:smallcool:


With the entire covert arm of the Imperium turned to the task of wrecking the Empire, I think that they wouldn't last long. With a widescale rebellion already waiting in the wings, what the Imperium really brings to the table are some deadly elite special agents and incredible funding.
And the Empire doesn't have counterintelligence and spies of its own? What about Palpatine's 'vision'?

[Fan]

Teleporters can be stopped by Void Shields because you move through the warp to teleport.

Star Wars Shields DO NOT stop teleporters, and you can teleport attack from standard engagement ranges.

There is no way once an Assault Terminator Squad gets into a Star Destroyer that it wont be the Imperium's in short order.

[TheOasysMaster]

There is no way once an Assault Terminator Squad gets into a Star Destroyer that it wont be the Imperium's in short order.
Don't be too sure...
They'd have to kill the entire bridge, every slicer, officer and droid capable of accessing data ports around the ship...
In Star Wars, capturing or destroying the bridge is not a victory.


Threads against the Empire are interesting, because there is always the elephant in the room of its massive internal instability. Left without any external crisis, the Empire will (partially within the EU) collapse based purely on its internal weakness within a generation of its creation. Any versus thread against the Empire that posits the victory of the Empire, is in fact arguing that the faction faced against the Empire will actually be worse at attacking them than doing absolutely nothing at all.
...
When I first read this, i thought you were saying, "Kill Palpatine and it's all over." And I have arguments for that...
But now, i see that that may not be your point at all...
The Empire brought ORDER to the galaxy, it's ownly instability came from the Rebellion...
External crisis? Palpatine created the Empire to defend against the 'Vong...
And even then, after he returned, he planned to conquer the whole universe!
But I'm still not too sure if that's what you're trying to get at...
:smallconfused:

[GloatingSwine]

Are these numbers ACCURATE?
:smalltongue:


The invasion, including the engagements leading up to it and the history of the Second War of Armageddon is described in detail in the Epic Armageddon rulebook.

The Imperium had to focus all its fleet assets on getting ground forces in place on Armageddon itself, only the system defence force offered any resistance in space.

[Selrahc]

When I first read this, i thought you were saying, "Kill Palpatine and it's all over." And I have arguments for that...
But now, i see that that may not be your point at all...
The Empire brought ORDER to the galaxy, it's ownly instability came from the Rebellion...
External crisis? Palpatine created the Empire to defend against the 'Vong...
And even then, after he returned, he planned to conquer the whole universe!
But I'm still not too sure if that's what you're trying to get at...

Let me say it this way.

In the movies, we see the Empire get *basically* destroyed by its own internal instability.

The addition of a large force willing to aid and fund these rebels, surely will just accelerate the dissolution of the Empire.

[GloatingSwine]

On the other hand, fascist governments are at their strongest when there's a clear external threat.

[chiasaur11]

Don't be too sure...
They'd have to kill the entire bridge, every slicer, officer and droid capable of accessing data ports around the ship...
In Star Wars, capturing or destroying the bridge is not a victory.


I can still see it happening.

I mean, a standard Termie job is cleaning Space Hulks filled with Genestealers. They probably could murder a reasonably sized ship to the last man.

[Urist]

I can still see it happening.

I mean, a standard Termie job is cleaning Space Hulks filled with Genestealers. They probably could murder a reasonably sized ship to the last man.

Thats wonderful, if the Terminators are involved in the engagement. Which, considering the amount of Space Marine Terminators(estimated at around 100000, assuming that only the First Company of a chapter has access to Terminator armor, and that maybe half of them are using it, which is a little optimistic) and the Imperium's famous bureaucracy/internecine fighting issues, they won't be. And if they are, great, they've taken a ship. Which is then torpedoed if used against the Empire, or blown up by the Mechanicus when they see the HERESY! Meanwhile, the other Star Destroyers in the group have closed been engaging the enemy, and the ship was still fighting at full effectiveness until every inch of it was cleansed. Then the Terminators are stranded on a ship until they can be picked up.

[Fan]

They aren't stranded, they can teleport attack to another ship and just keep going.

Also, WHAT heresy? The crews of most Star Destroyers are 100% human, and have NONE of the signs of chaos (Glowing purple aura, overt gaudiness, eyes and flesh growing out of the walls.. plague everywhere.)

The only thing that was heretical was the crew, and it's not uncommon at ALL for Termie's to Strip Chaos Infested Space Hulk's for lost tech.

Ergo, the hyperdrive and such would be completely scavenged, seen as a lost STC.

However, you also neglect to mention the fact that Tech Marines can and have rerouted all control to the bridge on ships that have functions that are quite normally completely outside of the bridges control, and usually arrive with an entourage of 10 or so servitors for missions like that.

[GloatingSwine]

Also, WHAT heresy?

Technology built by others, not properly sanctified by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and lacking a Machine Spirit. The mere act of capturing a Star Destroyer, the very concept that the foul technologies of the faithless should be used, is in itself heresy.

Remember that technology in the Imperium is not the work of progressive scientists but of a dedicated priesthood to whom the apex of enlightenment is recovering their own forgotten history, and to whom anything not in that history is viewed with at best disdain and at worst revulsion.

And that's before we talk about droids. AI is the absolute anathema to the AdMech. They see one droid (as even basic mouse droids had sufficient AI to demonstrate emotions like fear) and that ship and everyone on it is toast.

[The Glyphstone]

Heck, if we're throwing out numbers, 100,000 total Terminators is still more than the entire Imperial Fleet of 20,000 Star Destroyers - 5 each, specifically. I'd bet pretty heavily on a half-squad of Terminators being able to cleanse an entire SD by themselves, then sit around and drink tea or something until someone comes to fetch them.

[Sacrieur]

8. On the subject of the Force, Jedi and the like are just low-powered psykers. Even the vaunted Sith Lightning is one of the least manifestations of power in the IoM universe. And the IoM has psykers to spare...

Eh. Eh. Eh. Not really. While I don't doubt a high leveled pskyer could kill a Jedi quite effortlessly, pskyer power != force.

The psykers are limited to psychic powers. They perform telekinesis, can invade minds, read thoughts, etc. This is different than the force, which is described as being omnipotent.

While some of the more commonly portrayed uses of the force are telekinesis and lightning, force users have access to an incredible amount of versatility, such as self-augmentation and healing speeds. Technometry, seeing the future, and mind tricks are only a few of their powers. It certainly escapes out of the realm of psyker incredible power. However, theoretically, there is no limit to a Jedi's power.

Force users, and especially Jedi, use the force to enhance their fighting abilities. The force actually acts as a sort of immediate premonition; they can react to things before they happen. They know you're going to throw a grenade before you throw it.

Furthermore, the Jedi often tap into the force during combat, and let it guide their actions. This means the Jedi do not have to think or even try to move, they just let their instincts do all the work for them. A Jedi fully immersed in the force is an incredible force to be reckoned with, and Mace Windu has managed to accomplish this with Vaapad. He is described as fending off three massive gunships with lightsabers alone.

That said I don't know how mind control vs. a Jedi would go over. A Jedi who has tapped into the force may have enough pushback to resist, or be completely immune entirely (the pskyer may look into his head and find absolutely nothing). That said, a psyker can't know where a Jedi will strike next, because they don't think when they fight, they simply fight.

Still though, a pskyer's telekinetic powers are more than enough to eradicate a Jedi, though some Jedi are on par in power to mid to high-level psykers, as per in the force unleashed an entire Star Destroyer was pulled to the ground.

[Fan]

Force Unleashed is not canon.

There, I said it. I know someone wanted to.

Also Force Users immune to mind control? Lolno. Mind Trick is just exceptionally weak mind control, a strong mental control could easily work through the defense of a simple strong will.

[Sacrieur]

Force Unleashed is not canon.

There, I said it. I know someone wanted to.

Oh contrare, it is in fact canon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon#The_Holocron). Everything Lucas Arts publishes is considered canon unless otherwise stated.


Also Force Users immune to mind control? Lolno. Mind Trick is just exceptionally weak mind control, a strong mental control could easily work through the defense of a simple strong will.

I said I didn't know how it would work out while tapped into the force. Straight up, no force involvement. yes. But against Mace Windu within the complete whim of Vaapad? I don't even know, the force put him into a dream-like stupor. He wasn't even in touch with reality any more, he was experiencing some force-induced dream that was completely different than what actually happened.

[Shovah]

The psykers are limited to psychic powers. They perform telekinesis, can invade minds, read thoughts, etc. This is different than the force, which is described as being omnipotent.

Where did that idea come from?
Psykers are most definitely capable of augmenting themselves, and others.
While not pure fluff so the specifics of it can't be figured out, some examples in a recent codex include increasing their strength, or the strength of allies, to the point that they can punch open a battle-tank, or making a unit of men strike as fast or faster than literally any other unit can (Initiative 10, out of 10).

Some psykers open the ground to swallow their enemies, some suimmon flames that sweep across armies, some create shields to defend their allies, some can summon allies from anywhere on the battlefield to aid them.

They can guide the weapons of their allies or themselves, pull pure destructive energy from the warp (be it to attack, or to allow it to twist someone into something most certainly non-human).

For a distinctly non-IoM example, Ork technology pretty much runs on that races latent psychic energy - if they paint a vehicle red and believe it enough, it will actually go faster.


Psykers are definitely not limited to generic "Psychic" things.

[Sacrieur]

Where did that idea come from?
Psykers are most definitely capable of augmenting themselves, and others.
While not pure fluff so the specifics of it can't be figured out, some examples in a recent codex include increasing their strength, or the strength of allies, to the point that they can punch open a battle-tank, or making a unit of men strike as fast or faster than literally any other unit can (Initiative 10, out of 10).

Some psykers open the ground to swallow their enemies, some suimmon flames that sweep across armies, some create shields to defend their allies, some can summon allies from anywhere on the battlefield to aid them.

They can guide the weapons of their allies or themselves, pull pure destructive energy from the warp (be it to attack, or to allow it to twist someone into something most certainly non-human).

For a distinctly non-IoM example, Ork technology pretty much runs on that races latent psychic energy - if they paint a vehicle red and believe it enough, it will actually go faster.


Psykers are definitely not limited to generic "Psychic" things.

Forgive me then, but I still think a lot of those things fall under telekinesis.

[Forum Explorer]

Forgive me then, but I still think a lot of those things fall under telekinesis.

Fire, teleporting, and enhancement = telekinesis? While we're talking about psyker's abilities some can also see into the future to predict actions and avoid their own deaths or other disasters. (Very rare/weak in humans though) Other nasty abilities is driving opponets insane by forcing them to look into the warp unsheilded or just ripping their mind apart with psycic force.

[Fan]

Oh contrare, it is in fact canon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon#The_Holocron). Everything Lucas Arts publishes is considered canon unless otherwise stated.



I said I didn't know how it would work out while tapped into the force. Straight up, no force involvement. yes. But against Mace Windu within the complete whim of Vaapad? I don't even know, the force put him into a dream-like stupor. He wasn't even in touch with reality any more, he was experiencing some force-induced dream that was completely different than what actually happened.

It is S canon, making it only slightly above non canon. Since Vader being able to do things like he does in the game is a direct contradiction to the movies. It becomes NON CANON.

And the whole dream thing makes him easier to mind rape, as then you can simply take control of his limbs, and he wont even know it! You don't NEED to be AWARE to be mind controlled.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Force also = battle meditation. Mull on that for a while.

[Fan]

Force also = battle meditation. Mull on that for a while.

Something which WH40k has an equivalent to in that ability that gives 10 / 10 initiative.

Also this is the Galactic Empire, there are NO existing force users with battle meditation. Period.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Something which WH40k has an equivalent to in that ability that gives 10 / 10 initiative.

Also this is the Galactic Empire, there are NO existing force users with battle meditation. Period.
I honestly don't know anything about WH40K or any SW fluff outside movies/games, so I'm curious (one of the main reasons I read this thread, the other being procrastination for my intermediary metabolism final). Does the WH ability affect entire fleets or just individual troopers?

Also, Palpatine has battle meditation.

[Sacrieur]

It is S canon, making it only slightly above non canon. Since Vader being able to do things like he does in the game is a direct contradiction to the movies. It becomes NON CANON.

And the whole dream thing makes him easier to mind rape, as then you can simply take control of his limbs, and he wont even know it! You don't NEED to be AWARE to be mind controlled.

C-Canon actually. It explicitly states that games, books, and even the RPG is C-Canon. This includes force unleashed material and all of the material from Star Wars RPG (which also has force unleashed content).

G-Canon rarely conflicts with lower canon. And T-Canon likewise.

---

Easier to mind rape? I don't know. The force is controlling him. How do you take over something that's being directly controlled through an ubiquitous and virtually all-powerful entity?

[Fan]

Palpatine never uses it in critical battles like that of Endor. Even though he had the full ability to the entire time.

And it's agreed that we're only using material from the Original Triology, and the Imperium of Man is just before the 13th Black Crusade.

[Sacrieur]

Palpatine never uses it in critical battles like that of Endor. Even though he had the full ability to the entire time.

And it's agreed that we're only using material from the Original Triology, and the Imperium of Man is just before the 13th Black Crusade.

The original trilogy? Then IoM hands down. The original trilogy woefully underpowers the force, largely due to Luke Skywalker sucking balls until after training with Yoda, and then still sucking balls until he faces off with Darth Vader, in which not one of them really flaunts serious power, though through all of the story, we're told that the Skywalker line is incredibly powerful.

[Forum Explorer]

I honestly don't know anything about WH40K or any SW fluff outside movies/games, so I'm curious (one of the main reasons I read this thread, the other being procrastination for my intermediary metabolism final). Does the WH ability affect entire fleets or just individual troopers?

Also, Palpatine has battle meditation.

I assume you are talking about the pysker abilities? Generally it won't extend further then a ship though a really powerful psyker could do it, because ships have anti-pysker wards to prevent their captains and crews from being mind contolled by enemy pyskers and forced into killing their allies/themselves.

While Palpatine does have battle meditation he is rarely on the front line where it would be put to good use. I suppose it would help him against any assassin's though, but it wouldn't give him an instant win against an assassin.

[Hawkfrost000]

this popped into my head as i was reading this.

How would The (evil) Emperor do against a unbound Deamonhost? (from Dark Heresy)

DM

[Lord_Gareth]

Errr.... No. We see an Ion Cannon used in the films, the Rebels use it to disable the Star Destroyers temporarily to allow their transports to escape Hoth in Empire Strikes Back.

Y'see, the reason you think the IoM can win this is because you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Star Wars. Their starship weapons are equivalent at worst, but their strategic and tactical mobility is orders of magnitude better. Palpatine's poxy little shuttle managed to get him from Coruscant to Mustafar in a matter of at most hours, remebering that Anakin was on the edge of a magma river and on fire at the time, even with the Force he wouldn't live long, and that's a distance of some 40,000 light years. A Battlegroup of Star Destroyers can strike two targets on opposites sides of the Imperium in the same day, the IoM cannot make them fight where they do not wish to fight because they are too slow. It took six weeks for Ghazhgkull's invasion force to reach Armageddon after entering the system, and there was no significant response from the Imperial Navy, no reinforcements arrived to try to stop the fleet before it could land. There's never going to be a fair standup fight between IoM and GE forces, there's going to be a series of intensely one sided engagements where the IoM is horribly outnumbered until the Imperial Navy is defeated and the planets of the Imperium of Man are isolated, it's forge worlds starving for food and raw materials, and it's mighty armies grounded.

Respectfully, I know much more about Star Wars than I ever wanted to, including EU material and all the RPG stats and all that happy crap. I also know quite a bit about the IoM, and I say to you this: even if we bring everyone's baggage into this (rebellions, galaxy-wide threats, et cetera), opening up a new war front against the GE is chump change for the IoM. Chump. Change. For more information as to why the GE falls before just about any sustained and organized attack by a significant outside force, see first the Yuuzhan Vong (probably misspelled that) and then this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190684), which involves a single WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! and several noted experts in both canons.

[Reverent-One]

For more information as to why the GE falls before just about any sustained and organized attack by a significant outside force, see first the Yuuzhan Vong (probably misspelled that) and then this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190684), which involves a single WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! and several noted experts in both canons.

Wait, the Vong? It's been theorized both in and out of universe that the GE could have handled the Vong better than the Republic did.

[Lord_Gareth]

Wait, the Vong? It's been theorized both in and out of universe that the GE could have handled the Vong better than the Republic did.

Aye, in all likelihood, but the more general point is that the GE could have remained coherent if Palpy had, I dunno, shared that information ("The Vong are coming to rip us a new one!") with ANYONE. AT ALL. Instead, the GE got obliterated by a tiny, underfunded rebellion, with the help of teddy bears. Point being, there's an incredible leadership problem, and Imperial Stupidity affects tactics first, not last.

[Don Julio Anejo]

I'm curious (and this is an honest inquest)... Why do people generally assume maximum stupidity that's seen in the original source? I mean most people who write stories are writers, not experts on tactics or large-scale management systems. They know what makes a good story, not how to command a platoon of infantry or run a bureaucracy. If it's something set in our past or present, it's generally assumed that good ones ask experts on the topic. But if it's a soft sci-fi, space opera or outright fantasy, they usually get creative license to do whatever they want because no-one can really call them on it (let's be honest.. most of the time people call on technical nitpicks like "there's no sound in space" rather than "experienced small unit tactics call for using cover and flanking maneuvers rather than randomly shooting at the enemy").

So it's fair to assume that if put under scrutiny, characters will make pretty obvious and significant mistakes.

But is it fair to assume that people who are in-setting described as, say, experienced, extremely intelligent and in general know what they're doing will act the same way as the author described them?

I mean it's one thing to send in wave after wave of guards simply because that's the easiest tactic, and in any case, "we have reinforcements" and "there's plenty more where that came from" (or, for Russians, "шапками закидаем!", literally "drown them in hats"). It's legitimately established as an in-universe pattern.

On the other hand, if someone described as a brilliant tactician and the next best thing since Grand Admiral Thrawn, Napoleon Bonaparte and Lelouch Lamperouge all rolled into one, who is also described as someone who prefers to fight with minimum casualties on his side, does the same as the IG commander described above... The only way I see it is that the author simply couldn't think of anything better (after all, a character can never really be smarter than his creator).

So why extend this to every character in the setting? Isn't it more fair to assume they will act as they would in real life, within bounds established by the setting. I.e. Feds will never commit genocide on a species no matter how convenient or strategically sound it would be, but nothing is stopping them from reverse-engineering every piece of technology they get their hands on. Which is the complete opposite of Imperium if my impression is correct.

[hamishspence]

1. Tactical hyperdrive use is a no. Computers have to calculate the precise trajectory of the jump beforehand, and even the smallest jump takes a gigantic amount of energy. Any ship which attempted to fight immediately after a jump would be fighting at much less than full capacity. The concept of coming out of hyperspace guns blazing is, while suitably dramatic, just not viable in such a battle.

Thrawn does it- but it's explicitly stated that it comes with big flaws- no shields, and poor targeting, during the moments after the jump.

So, his ships in His Last Command drop out at point blank range (thanks to Interdictor gravity cones) fire, and move away, bringing up their shields as they do so.


2. The emphasis in tactics in GE is on fighter strikes, rather than capital ships. In IoM, fighter strikes are tactical lunacy because even the smallest capital ship has flak screens and point defense weapons more than powerful enough to wreck any incoming fighter or bomber. IoM also has a large emphasis on boarding tactics, something which the GE reserves for ships it doesn't want to kill immediately for whatever reason.

IoM ships are armoured enough that fighter weapons don't make much impression- it takes bombers. And in the novel Execution Hour, the bombers close to 500 km ("point-blank range") fire their bomb/missiles, and withdraw.


37. Ion cannon weaponry, which GE has some of, doesn't seem to have an answer within IoM canon. However, Ion Cannons are a notoriously unreliable technology in laboratory conditions, nevermind battlefield conditions. Aligning the crystals to allow use of the weapon is a task too difficult for anything but a repair droid (R2-D2) or a Force-sensitive human to do.

In the Rogue Trader book Battlefleet Koronus "Disruption macrocannons" are exactly equivalent to ion cannon- fire charged particles, that do no direct damage, but short out the power systems on targets.


8. On the subject of the Force, Jedi and the like are just low-powered psykers. Even the vaunted Sith Lightning is one of the least manifestations of power in the IoM universe. And the IoM has psykers to spare...

Yup- in Deathwatch, a Chief Librarian is described as being capable of destroying a fortress, or an army, with his powers- and virtually every chapter has at least one Chief Librarian, and some have "a handful" of Chief Librarians.

[Selrahc]

Thrawn does it- but it's explicitly stated that it comes with big flaws- no shields, and poor targeting, during the moments after the jump.

Doesn't sound terribly useful...

If tactical FTL leaves a ship shieldless, then it will get the ship killed. Seeing the future is a common power among both Navigators and Psykers, and any battleship will have at least a few quite powerful examples of both. Diviners are a core aspect of Imperium tactics. A tactically jumping ships location will be known in advance so guns will be primed and aimed. After a few heavy losses, I'd say the capability would be mostly abandoned.

[hamishspence]

In other star wars novels, "ordinary" FTL seems to allow for the shields being up when the ship comes out. Which is why the Falcon isn't flattened by Alderaanian asteroids- because Han, being paranoid, always keeps the shields up when coming out of hyperspace.

Maybe being "yanked" out of hyperspace by the Interdictor doesn't allow this?

[byaku rai]

Back on the subject of psykers vs. Jedi, even ignoring the numbers difference, it's heavily weighted on the psykers' side. Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi ever, has massive telekinesis, strong mind control vs. singular targets ranging up to largish groups, and powerful self-augmentation.

Compare that to an Alpha+ psyker. In the Eisenhorn books, an A+ uses its powers to convert the civilian population within several miles into mindless slaves. That's not simple suggestion, like the Jedi use. That's domination. He uses Warp energy to nearly blow away Eisenhorn himself (a powerful psyker in his own right).

During the Great Crusade, reference is made to psykers who do the same domination trick to entire planets. Also references to those same psykers using psychic lightning on any citizen who managed to break free. Across the entire planet, 24/7.

Besides, this is the Rebellion era. Most Force-users are underground at this point. The only notable Force-users in GE's forces are Darth Vader, the Emperor himself, and, depending on canon, maybe the Black Guard (you know, the guy with the lightsaber spear in Force Unleashed). Compare to enough psykers in the Imperium to sacrifice 1,000 to the GEoM EVERY SINGLE DAY, without appreciably denting the numbers.

And if you insist on being anal about it, I'll just turn the Astronomican your way and blow up all your minds.

[hamishspence]

C'baoth, in the Thrawn books, approaches that level of power- is able, eventually, to dominate the entire crew of a starship, across a distance of light-years.

When it comes to dominating large numbers of people at a time, it may be harder though- he appears to be under some strain when dominating the crew of an entire Star Destroyer.

It's not clear when he became active though- during the Rebellion era, or shortly afterward. Or even before- some time after the Clone Wars.

While class alpha-plus psykers are not normally used by the Imperium (too insane) Chief Librarians are fairly close in power- and more numerous.

So- in the "psychic war" I'd say the Imperium have a significant lead.

[Selrahc]

Compare to enough psykers in the Imperium to sacrifice 1,000 to the GEoM EVERY SINGLE DAY, without appreciably denting the numbers.


The psykers sacrificed to the Emperor are penny ante losers, barely warp capable at all. They are sacrificed specifically because they are too weak to survive the sanctioning procedure.

I would wager that the sacrifices make up the bulk of the psyker population.


Compare that to an Alpha+ psyker.

Alpha+ psykers are incredibly rare! You might have one or two across an entire segmentum. If that. Being generous, there could be perhaps a dozen of them in God-Emperor control across the Entire Imperium. The head of the Astronomican. Some Inquisitorial High Lords. Maybe some are sitting in a dungeon on titan, covered in hexagrammatic wards waiting to be unleashed on the deadliest threats.

Even Space Marine Chief Librarians don't reach the level of an Alpha+, and they are generally head and shoulders above the other Imperium psykers.



And if you insist on being anal about it, I'll just turn the Astronomican your way and blow up all your minds.

That isn't how the Astronomican works! It's a lighthouse, not a death ray.

[The Glyphstone]

And if you insist on being anal about it, I'll just turn the Astronomican your way and blow up all your minds.

Okay, as much as I like 40K..the Astronomicon does not work that way. It's not a literal lighthouse of psychic power that you can repurpose as a laser beam, it's more like a really powerful beacon that lets Navigators quadrangulate off it to steer through the Warp.

[hamishspence]

On "blowing up a moon or a planet with firepower alone" there is some precedent for Imperium era ships being able to do this.

In Index Astartes: Night Lords- the Night Lords fleet, pursued by the Imperium, stop in orbit around their own home planet- Nostromo, and open fire on the spot in the planet's adamantium crust where Night Haunter (their Primarch) crashed in his pod on arrival.

The planet finally explodes.

And in Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus, moon-destroying firepower is attributed to Grand Cruisers:

page 31: "For over 10,000 years, the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy have traversed the stars in stately majesty, huge and powerful vessels lined with banks of heavy weapons capable of destroying small moons"

Probably the biggest problem 40K has in the fleet war, would be slow build rate. The fastest rate mentioned for building a cruiser is in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook- page 110- where the Lunar Class cruiser Lord Daros is described as having been built in orbit around a feral world, using materials mined and smelted by the tribesmen (and presented for "sacrifice" at "sky temples") within 11 years.

Normally, cruisers take decades to build, and battleships, centuries.

[Lord_Gareth]

On "blowing up a moon or a planet with firepower alone" there is some precedent for Imperium era ships being able to do this.

In Index Astartes: Night Lords- the Night Lords fleet, pursued by the Imperium, stop in orbit around their own home planet- Nostromo, and open fire on the spot in the planet's adamantium crust where Night Haunter (their Primarch) crashed in his pod on arrival.

The planet finally explodes.

And in Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus, moon-destroying firepower is attributed to Grand Cruisers:

page 31: "For over 10,000 years, the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy have traversed the stars in stately majesty, huge and powerful vessels lined with banks of heavy weapons capable of destroying small moons"

Probably the biggest problem 40K has in the fleet war, would be slow build rate. The fastest rate mentioned for building a cruiser is in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook- page 110- where the Lunar Class cruiser Lord Daros is described as having been built in orbit around a feral world, using materials mined and smelted by the tribesmen (and presented for "sacrifice" at "sky temples") within 11 years.

Normally, cruisers take decades to build, and battleships, centuries.

On the other hand, for sheer quantity, the IoM's industrial processes make the GE weep tears of envious hatred. Aye, those ships take forever to build. And they have millions of worlds building them, all at once. Not to mention that most of their parts can be shipped elsewhere and repurposed if they need to - those cannons can be (and have been) strapped to tanks.

[hamishspence]

It's likely to be less than a million- since that's the approximate number of worlds in the Imperium in the most recent rulebook-

though it's possible that this may not include systems with no worlds, a lot of asteroids, and space stations, factories and so on mining those asteroids.

On page 115 of the 5E 40K rulebook, it gives a sample hive world (population 154 billion), and a figure for the number of hive worlds in the Imperium (approximately 32380).

There's likely to be more civilized worlds than hive worlds- but less forgeworlds than hiveworlds.

And it's likely to be rare for a space-capable starship to be built at anything less technologically advanced than a civilized world. The Lord Daros may have been a bit atypical in that respect.

[Lord_Gareth]

I dunno, the Inquisitor's Handbook (basically the Player's Guide) for Dark Heresy gives us an in-depth look at one sector of the Imperial-controlled galaxy and it suggests that orbital platforms and other off-world factories can be heavily involved in the production process, not mentioning that even hive-worlds are essentially massive factories (case in point: Gunmetal City) that export a certain "theme" of product all over the Imperium. They've got a bottomless war machine to fuel, they've gotten very, very good at it by now.

[GloatingSwine]

On the other hand, for sheer quantity, the IoM's industrial processes make the GE weep tears of envious hatred. Aye, those ships take forever to build. And they have millions of worlds building them, all at once. Not to mention that most of their parts can be shipped elsewhere and repurposed if they need to - those cannons can be (and have been) strapped to tanks.

Bear in mind that the entire Galactic Empire fleet of some 25,000 Star Destroyers was built in only 20 years, and the second Death Star was 3/4 complete in only six months in complete secrecy.

Once again, you think the Imperium is a big noise industrially, but their industrial processes are slow compared to a galaxy that isn't run by totalitarian religious fanatics.

[Thinker]

Bear in mind that the entire Galactic Empire fleet of some 25,000 Star Destroyers was built in only 20 years, and the second Death Star was 3/4 complete in only six months in complete secrecy.

Once again, you think the Imperium is a big noise industrially, but their industrial processes are slow compared to a galaxy that isn't run by totalitarian religious fanatics.

Who cares about star destroyers? They're merely a nuisance compared to any respectable WH40k ship. And I don't think that the death star is all that impressive compared to the warp and the demons from within. Put plainly, the WH universe is just too much more powerful than the GE that any faction in WH could easily defeat the GE.

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually, Thinker does bring up something interesting - if we're bringing in everyone's baggage (since the IoM wins the battle through sheer numbers, hands-down, if we don't), does the GE have to deal with Orks/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Tyranids/Invading Tau/Normal Eldar/Chaos/Et cetera?

[hamishspence]

It may depend on the writer. Some of the more recent estimates seem to place Star Destroyers as comparable to the somewhat longer Imperium cruisers.

Imperium cruisers are also rather light for their size- "28 megatonnes" (28 million tonnes) is the figure given in Rogue Trader for an Imperium cruiser.

Some writers tend to go with much higher firepower figures than is consistant with the novels- the "200 gigaton turbolasers" of Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections, seems awfully big, when compared to the novels- in which, for example, a single turbolaser hit destroys an acre of forest (Darksaber).

With the "1.5 million member worlds, 69 million colony worlds, protectorates, etc" figure from The Essential Atlas, the Galactic Empire might actually have a bigger industrial base than the Imperium.

Depending on how much output the Imperium's million or so worlds (and offworld facilities) can generate, the Imperium might find itself seriously challenged, in a "war of attrition".

[GloatingSwine]

Who cares about star destroyers? They're merely a nuisance compared to any respectable WH40k ship.

As pointed out repeatedly, this is simply not the case, they are ships equipped with and capable of withstanding fire from equivalent or better weapons to those of the Imperium, They are faster, both in realspace* and FTL, and they can be built on a far greater scale because their industrial base is far more efficient and responsive.

Remember that the Millennium Falcon is capable of interstellar travel without Hyperdrive at speeds equivalent to warp travel, and the Imperial fleet arrived at Hoth from the edge of the system in a matter of minutes to hours, Imperium ships are as far outclassed at sublight mobility as they are supralight.


since the IoM wins the battle through sheer numbers, hands-down, if we don't

Except they don't because they cannot move fast enough, strategically or tactically, to make those numbers count worth a damn unless they contract their forces dramatically and cede the majority of their worlds without a fight. The Imperium of Man is specialised in fighting ground battles, but here it is pitted against an opponent specialised in fighting in space, the ultimate high ground.

[Lord_Gareth]

Except they don't because they cannot move fast enough, strategically or tactically, to make those numbers count worth a damn unless they contract their forces dramatically and cede the majority of their worlds without a fight. The Imperium of Man is specialised in fighting ground battles, but here it is pitted against an opponent specialised in fighting in space, the ultimate high ground.

Battlefleet Gothic would like a word with you, and Hamish can elaborate on that. However, the key difference here is that the Imperium has neither interest in prisoners nor in most of any given planet's natural resources - they're just fine with leaving only the mineral resources intact and simply blasting the atmosphere off of whatever world they're attacking. Is the GE going to be able to compensate for an enemy whose opening salvo is "Kill everything, the Emperor will sort them out later"?

[hamishspence]

Remember that the Millennium Falcon is capable of interstellar travel without Hyperdrive at speeds equivalent to warp travel,

Since when? In the EU, it's clarified that it has a very slow backup hyperdrive- it certainly can't exceed the speed of light in realspace.



and the Imperial fleet arrived at Hoth from the edge of the system in a matter of minutes to hours, Imperium ships are as far outclassed at sublight mobility as they are supralight.

The Phalanx was able to make 3/4 the speed of light, in Flight of the Eisenstein.

It's not clear how close "came out of light speed too close to the system" was- or
how big a time gap there is between that and arriving in orbit.

The Galactic Empire, and the Alliance, appear to be able to come out of light speed much closer to planets (witness the fleet arriving within visual range of Endor)- so we cannot surmise that their normal sublight speeds vastly exceed those of Imperium ships.

The Corellia Trilogy is one of the main sources for sublight speeds:

"'If this field keeps growing at the present rate, it's going to blanket the entire Corellian star system.'
'The whole system?' Leia asked. 'That's impossible. No one could generate an interdiction field that big.'
'Except someone is, ma'am. And when that field reaches full strength, nothing is going to be able to get within a light-week of this star system in hyperspace.'" [ "Ambush at Corellia", p. 305 ]

"He pointed through the viewscreen toward the still-distant point of light that was the star Corell, at least two months' travel away at sublight speeds." [ "Ambush at Corellia", p. 307 ]

"Luke and Lando had discovered the interdiction field when the Lady Luck was abruptly decanted out of hyperspace on the outskirts of the Corellian system, far out enough that the journey in toward the planet of Corellia would take months at best.
No one had ever managed to generate an interdiction field a hundredth, a thousandth, as large as the Corellian field." [ "Assault at Selonia", p. 20 ]

" 'But with the interdiction field in place, you can't use hyperdrive in the Corellian planetary system,' Lando said. 'It could take months to travel from the edge of the field to the inner planets via normal space.'" [ "Assault at Selonia", p. 44 ]

"The navicomputer told her the trip from the edge of the interdiction field to the planet Corellia would take her three long months at the Gentleman's best sublight speed, but Tendra half-expected she would not have anywhere near that long to wait." [ "Assault at Selonia", p. 181 ]

"In theory, there was nothing preventing her from dropping out of hyperspace deliberately, here and now, and sailing toward Corellia in normal space. But suppose she was a billion kilometers off? That would add another week or ten days to her transit time, and after only a few days aboard the Gent, she was quite certain she did not want to extend the trip if she could help it." [ "Assault at Selonia", p. 195 ]

[Mr.Bookworm]

Compare that to an Alpha+ psyker. In the Eisenhorn books, an A+ uses its powers to convert the civilian population within several miles into mindless slaves. That's not simple suggestion, like the Jedi use. That's domination. He uses Warp energy to nearly blow away Eisenhorn himself (a powerful psyker in his own right).

That was actually a vanilla Alpha-class psyker.

An Alpha Plus Psyker is one that has no theoretical limits, and are the ones who can do things like mindrape entire planets, summon hordes of Greater Daemons, and snap Titans in half like twigs.

One thing I would be interested to see is how blanks interact with Force users. If they cancel it out like they do the Warp, the Culexus Temple would have a field day.

[hamishspence]

In the EU, the "light side" of the force is emotion based, like the dark side is in the movies- but the light side is said to come from compassion, among other things.

There are some similarities between the Force and the Warp.

The Warp could be said to be "an energy field created by all living things"- in certain respects.

So- maybe if the two settings were merged, the Jedi and the Sith would be psykers- the Force would be the Warp- and the main difference between them and "normal" psykers, would be them not normally being vulnerable to getting daemonically possessed.

Hyperspace might equate to "the edge of the warp" where Tau ships can safely entire without actually having Gellar fields, or being vulnerable to daemonic assault.

Considering that looking into hyperspace is said to occasionally cause people to go mad, it's an interesting similarity.

Interestingly, the Star Wars setting has its own entities, made of pure "dark side energy" that possess Force Users- they're called derriphans.

So maybe they'd be a kind of minor daemon?

I like the idea of some famous Star Wars quotes being given a 40K flavour:
"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the warp."

[Mr.Bookworm]

In the EU, the "light side" of the force is emotion based, like the dark side is in the movies- but the light side is said to come from compassion, among other things.

This is making me imagine a Dragon Age/Star Wars crossover where the Force is the Fade.


The Warp could be said to be "an energy field created by all living things"- in certain respects.

Actually, that's exactly what the Warp is. It's a realm of pure psychic energy, generated by sentient beings. Daemons and such are spots where particularly large amounts of psychic energy of varying flavors have congregated.


So- maybe if the two settings were merged, the Jedi and the Sith would be psykers- the Force would be the Warp- and the main difference between them and "normal" psykers, would be them not normally being vulnerable to getting daemonically possessed.

I don't know about the possession thing. The Dark Side possess a corrupting influence similar to that which Chaos has. It's quite possible that they only reason they aren't possessed more often is because there aren't many entities capable of possession around, unlike 40k, which has countless hordes of them.


Hyperspace might equate to "the edge of the warp" where Tau ships can safely entire without actually having Gellar fields, or being vulnerable to daemonic assault.

Considering that looking into hyperspace is said to occasionally cause people to go mad, it's an interesting similarity.

Huh. That makes a surprising amount of sense.


Interestingly, the Star Wars setting has its own entities, made of pure "dark side energy" that possess Force Users- they're called derriphans.

So maybe they'd be a kind of minor daemon?

*looks up*

Holy crap, it's Komus.

Yeah, probably a minor daemon.

Sounds very Tzeentchian.


I like the idea of some famous Star Wars quotes being given a 40K flavour:
"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the warp."

You know, that quote always bugged me. I understand what it means in the non-physical sense, but the fact remains that the most powerful Force ability we've ever seen is...

The ability to destroy a planet. :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

The ability to tear the core out of a star was seen in The Sith War- however, a case could be made that this power required a "magic focus" (the crystals on the battleship)- it wasn't raw Force power alone.

There's also the "hyperspace wormholes" created by Palpatine in Dark Empire- they can destroy a starfleet.

It would not entirely surprise me if directing one of those straight into a star would cause the star to explode.

[dgnslyr]

You know, that quote always bugged me. I understand what it means in the non-physical sense, but the fact remains that the most powerful Force ability we've ever seen is...

The ability to destroy a planet. :smallconfused:

I guess because the Force is more versatile? I mean, a Death Star may be great for terrifying rebels, and it may very well be a blast at drunken parties, but what happens when you need to pick up a remote on the other side of the room? Planet-destroying firepower won't do you much good there, when all you need is to grab something out of reach without standing up. And which of the two would you turn to when you meet a nice looking lady at the bar? Sure, having planet-demolishing fire power is impressive, but unless you can say it's all yours, you won't be picking up any ladies with it. Now, with a little Force suggestion, you could accomplish much, much more.

[hamishspence]

This.

On the Empire- while the galaxy may have been warring for thousands of years, the last thousand years before the Clone Wars were very peaceful- so much so, in fact, that the Republic didn't maintain a standing army and fleet.

Might this lead to lack of experience, in the case of the Imperial Army and Navy that were founded during, and immediately after, the Clone Wars?

[Sacrieur]

Technically the force is all-powerful. It coincides with the popular belief of the "unifying" force. There is no upper limit to a force users power. The more in touch he is with the force, the more powerful he becomes. But apparently we're only including the original trilogy, which for the life of me I can't imagine why we're not including the prequel trilogy as well. Both are George Lucas's official works, to cut it off seems silly. It doesn't make sense chronologically either.

I mean, in the prequel is where we get to see all of those cool force powers in action. Jedi pilot this tiny ships that are super maneuverable. Anakin was the best starship pilot because of his strong connection to the force. He was comparatively on the strength of any member of the Jedi council, save for Yoda and Mace Windu.

[byaku rai]

We're not including the prequel trilogy because it isn't the Empire then. :smalltongue:

[Devonix]

Technically the force is all-powerful. It coincides with the popular belief of the "unifying" force. There is no upper limit to a force users power. The more in touch he is with the force, the more powerful he becomes. But apparently we're only including the original trilogy, which for the life of me I can't imagine why we're not including the prequel trilogy as well. Both are George Lucas's official works, to cut it off seems silly. It doesn't make sense chronologically either.

I mean, in the prequel is where we get to see all of those cool force powers in action. Jedi pilot this tiny ships that are super maneuverable. Anakin was the best starship pilot because of his strong connection to the force. He was comparatively on the strength of any member of the Jedi council, save for Yoda and Mace Windu.

Prequel stuff tends to be ignored because its a poorly written and inconsistant mess that goes against its own established cannon.

[Urist]

To shed light on the industrial/military capabilities of the Empire, some numbers and statistics(pulled from wookiepedia, so not necessarily entirely accurate, but probably in the right ballpark):
Number of sectors in the Galactic Empire:~1000
Number of inhabited worlds per sector: around 50(could be up to 100).
Forces per sector: around 2,400 in the Sector Group(20ish Star Destroyers, 1,600 other combat vessels(leaves around 800 support/transport vessels).
Beyond these ships, a further 10% are kept unassigned to sector groupings and kept near the Core Systems in order to be rapidly deployed where needed.
Based on these numbers, that puts the entire Imperial Navy at around:
1,624,000 active combat vessels(all non-fighter combat vessels, including capital ships, escorts, and cruisers).
800,000 support vessels(carriers, transports, repair, etc.).
162,400 reserve combat vessels
80,000 reserved support vessels.
Similar numbers were hard to come by for the Imperium, but I have no doubt they are out there, my google-fu is just not good enough to find them:smallredface:.
Regardless, forces of this magnitude are somewhat hard to look at as insignificant. Could the Empire beat the Imperium with these numbers? I don't know. Could they take a large chunk out of it? Certainly.

[Sacrieur]

Prequel stuff tends to be ignored because its a poorly written and inconsistant mess that goes against its own established cannon.

Still work of George Lucas, and he says it fits into his world. And IIRC the OP said Republic/Empire. Also, the prequel sheds light on Palpatine and nonsense.

[Selrahc]

1,624,000 active combat vessels(all non-fighter combat vessels, including capital ships, escorts, and cruisers).

A big force.. but really, so much depends on the relative power of the ships.



800,000 support vessels(carriers, transports, repair, etc.).

The Imperium really has no equivalent to this. There isn't much civilian shipping. Trade, supply and transport are all handled by the charter captains. The entire merchant navy of the Imperium serves as the support arm of the battlefleets, at the behest of the Administratum.



Similar numbers were hard to come by for the Imperium, but I have no doubt they are out there,

I'd doubt it, really. Nothing ever gets quite that definitive.
We got a working estimate of 20000 Lunar Class cruisers in a previous thread. Lunars are the backbone of the fleet, but there dozens of classes of ship used over the Imperium.

Probably Lunars make up around a fifth of the ships of Cruiser class or greater. But light cruisers and frigates? Much more numerous.

There are of course also non-warp capable system defence crafts and Q-Ships which fall into the role of the merchant fleets. Orbital fortresses or Space Stations. Space Marine Fleets. Rogue Traders. None of those will be accounted for in a standard reckoning... but make up a quite substantial portion of the space strength of the IoM.

Is a star destroyer a match for a Lunar Cruiser? Or a sword frigate? Or better or worse than both? Tonne for tonne, which is a more efficient combat craft? A Star Destroyer is the size of an IoM frigate, despite being used in the role of capital ship. If the Star Destroyer punches above its weight class, then the smaller vessels that make up the majority of the Empire fleet will be able to continue their role as frigates and other functions. If it is only hitting as hard as an Imperium frigate, then the majority of the Empires fleet will be too light to serve as proper combat vessels and the Empire will be overmatched, at least in the initial stages of combat.

[Sacrieur]

I'd like to turn sights to Star Trek vs. IoM for a moment. There are questions of not how the IoM would fair against the Federation fleet, but how the IoM would fair against the Star Trek Universe. The Federation fleet is but a toy compared to the IoM's fleet, but there is the question of intelligence. The Federation seeks to resolve conflict, and has grown a number of extremely strong allies with a heavy science-based culture.

Among these allies are nanites, the Q, and other super powerful entities. The nanites are peaceful, but they have shown great hostitility when provoked, should the IoM attack them they would have quite a surprise. There's no telling a Q would put an end to their fleet in a hurry, but the Q do tend to stay out of such matters.

The Douwd, on the other hand, may not. There is no telling that there is not a Douwd in the Federation, though this is speculation. We know there is a Douwd on Delta Rana IV, and he does not take kindly to people trying to knock on his door. Anyway, he exterminated an entire species with a single thought, because they killed someone he loved. This shows the Douwd may interefere with the IoM. The IoM does not have the cleverness or intelligence afforded by the Federation. They do not take no for an answer, which could possibly lead to the the extinction of them all.

---

The Federation knows when to retreat. They're smart. And I have no doubt they would be able to neutralize a fair share of the IoM threat by simply outsmarting them.

[Forum Explorer]

I'd like to turn sights to Star Trek vs. IoM for a moment. There are questions of not how the IoM would fair against the Federation fleet, but how the IoM would fair against the Star Trek Universe. The Federation fleet is but a toy compared to the IoM's fleet, but there is the question of intelligence. The Federation seeks to resolve conflict, and has grown a number of extremely strong allies with a heavy science-based culture.

Among these allies are nanites, the Q, and other super powerful entities. The nanites are peaceful, but they have shown great hostitility when provoked, should the IoM attack them they would have quite a surprise. There's no telling a Q would put an end to their fleet in a hurry, but the Q do tend to stay out of such matters.

The Douwd, on the other hand, may not. There is no telling that there is not a Douwd in the Federation, though this is speculation. We know there is a Douwd on Delta Rana IV, and he does not take kindly to people trying to knock on his door. Anyway, he exterminated an entire species with a single thought, because they killed someone he loved. This shows the Douwd may interefere with the IoM. The IoM does not have the cleverness or intelligence afforded by the Federation. They do not take no for an answer, which could possibly lead to the the extinction of them all.

---

The Federation knows when to retreat. They're smart. And I have no doubt they would be able to neutralize a fair share of the IoM threat by simply outsmarting them.

At the current time in the Warhammer universe if they meet up with another human empire there will be some attempt at absorbtion. But if the Federation is as clever as you are saying then they could probly avoid it or resist it. If the Federation didn't go on the offensive they would likely get listed under something to deal with after the Nid's and the Necrons are gone.

[Sacrieur]

At the current time in the Warhammer universe if they meet up with another human empire there will be some attempt at absorbtion. But if the Federation is as clever as you are saying then they could probly avoid it or resist it. If the Federation didn't go on the offensive they would likely get listed under something to deal with after the Nid's and the Necrons are gone.

Yes, the Feds would probably not considered a threat, because they don't want to fight, they want to make a treaty and be at peace. However, should the IoM storm the fort, they would be met with some surprising resistance.

[Knaight]

Yes, the Feds would probably not considered a threat, because they don't want to fight, they want to make a treaty and be at peace. However, should the IoM storm the fort, they would be met with some surprising resistance.

Odds are the Feds get listed somewhere under Tau when it comes to priority threats.

[Lamech]

At the current time in the Warhammer universe if they meet up with another human empire there will be some attempt at absorbtion. But if the Federation is as clever as you are saying then they could probly avoid it or resist it. If the Federation didn't go on the offensive they would likely get listed under something to deal with after the Nid's and the Necrons are gone. The feds have some nasty weapons, (genesis device, time travel, or phase cloak) and they prefer a peaceful solution. I agree that the feds will resist the attempt at absorption and then stay out of it. I truly doubt the IoM will want to needlessly annoy a group with time travel and phase cloak. Same thing for the empire.
The feds will stay out of this fight if possible. If they get forced into the battle they'll probably get a couple worlds burned, and then respond with something inane. And then probably filed in the not worth dealing with category.

[Coidzor]

...Yeah, that whole time travel thing and 20 minutes of analysis of IoM leading one to the conclusion that it probably all went wrong at the whole Horus Heresy thing would pretty much muck things up for the Imperium. Which would be a net win for them except none of them would exist anymore. Ow.

[hamishspence]

We got a working estimate of 20000 Lunar Class cruisers in a previous thread. Lunars are the backbone of the fleet, but there dozens of classes of ship used over the Imperium.

It might be as low as 2000- in BFG it mentions "over 400 Lunar class ships in the Segmentum, and 20 fighting in the Gothic Sector"- with 5 Segmentum zones in the Imperium.

However, the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader games may enlarge this figure a bit.

Probably Lunars make up around a fifth of the ships of Cruiser class or greater. But light cruisers and frigates? Much more numerous.


Orbital fortresses or Space Stations. Space Marine Fleets. Rogue Traders. None of those will be accounted for in a standard reckoning... but make up a quite substantial portion of the space strength of the IoM.

With between 1 and 3 Battle Barges (on average) per Chapter, and maybe an average of 5 Strike Cruisers, the Marines may be a very substantial portion- perhaps 2000 BBs and 5000 Strike Cruisers.


Is a star destroyer a match for a Lunar Cruiser? Or a sword frigate? Or better or worse than both? Tonne for tonne, which is a more efficient combat craft? A Star Destroyer is the size of an IoM frigate, despite being used in the role of capital ship. If the Star Destroyer punches above its weight class, then the smaller vessels that make up the majority of the Empire fleet will be able to continue their role as frigates and other functions. If it is only hitting as hard as an Imperium frigate, then the majority of the Empires fleet will be too light to serve as proper combat vessels and the Empire will be overmatched, at least in the initial stages of combat.

Star Destroyers (Imperial class) have a fairly large volume (estimates seem to be around 69.5 million cubic metres.

Low estimates of density I've seen, come at 0.5 tonnes per cubic m- this is consistant with Clone Wars material, where ships are able to land, and float, in the seas of Dac (the Mon Calamari homeworld).

Which would put it at just under 35 million tonnes- which in Rogue Trader falls somewhere between battlecruiser, and grand cruiser, mass.

So its possible that they may mass as much as Imperium capital ships.

However if they, like imperium ships, are light in weight, they may fit closer to frigates.

[Irbis]

On the other hand, for sheer quantity, the IoM's industrial processes make the GE weep tears of envious hatred.

Beg your pardon? :smallconfused:

In AotC, production output what we have seen on Geonosis outmatched typical IoM hive world by two orders of magnitude. We're talking about producing hundreds of thousands highly sophisticated battle droids per day vs outfitting one regiment of few thousand men per month. Cadia, the most heavily armed world in IoM spend centuries equipping their current army, 900 million soldiers, Geonosis produced more droids in half a year.

And it was relatively backward world, with output nowhere near the real galactic titans of industry.


Aye, those ships take forever to build. And they have millions of worlds building them, all at once.

IoM has 30.000 hive worlds. Not millions. Meaning, they can produce 30.000 ships per century (more ships on some worlds, but then, they take centuries to build, so it evens out). Empire built 300.000 Star Destroyers alone (never mind tens of millions of supporting craft), in less than two decades. Yes, Empire's engineers would be in tears. Out of pity :smalltongue:


Not to mention that most of their parts can be shipped elsewhere and repurposed if they need to - those cannons can be (and have been) strapped to tanks.

Oh, so IoM starships are armed with tank guns? :smallconfused:

*looks at 55 meter high tower of medium turbolaser battery*

Yeah, that is going to instil a lot of fear in the hearts of Empire's gunners :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Hive worlds aren't the only worlds capable of building ships. As mentioned, civilized worlds can build the less complex ships, and even feral worlds can build ships- if they have a shipyard of some sort in orbit for the materials harvested by the feralworlders to be delivered to.

The aforementioned Lord Daros, a Lunar class cruiser built in orbit around a feral world, took only 11 years to build- according to the BFG rulebook.

Also- where's the idea that Geonosis had "nowhere near the output of the real galactic titans of industry" coming from?- given that it was one of the main droid-construction worlds of the Confederacy, which included some of the most powerful companies of the Republic?


Empire built 300.000 Star Destroyers alone (never mind tens of millions of supporting craft), in less than two decades. Yes, Empire's engineers would be in tears. Out of pity :smalltongue:

The official figure is "over 25,000" Imperial-class destroyers. I'm not sure where the 300,000 figure is coming from- the Empire may have built quite a few "Star Destroyer-class battle cruisers" and "Super Star Destroyers"- but is that enough to bring the figure up that high?



Oh, so IoM starships are armed with tank guns? :smallconfused:


Ordinatus guns, maybe- the Ordinatus is a titan-size tank fielded by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

In Episode II, ground vehicles appear to be carrying starship-crippling weaponry- it's exactly the same principle.

[Parra]

I was under the impression that, while faster, the whole "Hyperdrive across the galaxy in a day or so" was due to hyperspace lanes?

With Hyperspace lanes being incredibly well mapped out and explored routes that avoided any gravitaional complications (black holes, stars etc). With establishing new Hyperspace lanes being a long and painstaking process.

If that understanding is correct, then would the GE be able to cherry pick which IoM systems to attack?
Or
Would they have to take months/years mapping out the IoM galaxy to make safe long distance hypersapce jumps?

If they had to use short-hop methods to conquer/liberate IoM systems step by step then there speed advantage diminishing considerably.

How would the IoM fare in discovering GE systems?

[hamishspence]

I was under the impression that, while faster, the whole "Hyperdrive across the galaxy in a day or so" was due to hyperspace lanes?

Seems likely. In the Zahn novels, even the faster warships, like the Victory (faster than the Imperial) capable of reaching "point five" if it pushes the engines far past normal levels, only appear to be able to manage 127 light years per hour.

Which would make for a "cross the galaxy" time of several days.

Normal cruising speeds seem to be much slower- 3 light years per hour.

Still a lot faster than Imperium ships though.

I think the only ships that might come close to Galactic Empire speeds would be those of the Grey Knights, and maybe the Deathwatch.

[Irbis]

Also- where's the idea that Geonosis had "nowhere near the output of the real galactic titans of industry" coming from?- given that it was one of the main droid-construction worlds of the Confederacy, which included some of the most powerful companies of the Republic?

Where? If you look at the planet from orbit, it was a desert world, with no visible infrastructure, and all factories were build in secret underground. Note that Republic captured it right at the start of the war, and it haven't even dented the Separatist war production.

Also, to address the numbers higher in this post - Empire haven't had 1000 sectors, Republic did, Empire controlled over twice the Republic area. The other numbers are also very low (as they don't allow for 69 million worlds the Empire had), but in the interest of fairness, I'll ignore these and use WEG numbers alone:

50 worlds per sector, one million worlds (absolute lowest figure of Empire's territory, given as early as 1977) - gives 20.000 sectors. Sector battle group of 20 ISD - equals 400.000 thousand ISDs alone, a number 33% greater than my estimate of Empire's Navy based on WEGs Imperial Sourcebook (note that 25.000 ISD are specifically said to be Navy forces, not belonging to Sector Defence Groups, and Navy had about 10% of ships Empire employed, which gave me 250.000 to 300.000 ISDs figure).

So, we can say Empire built fleet just as strong if not stronger than that of IoM in less than two decades. As much as I like IoM, sadly, their inability to research anything new and archaic, by-hand model of production gives the Empire absolute edge even if the speed, firepower, manpower etc was the same. Guardsmen are nowhere near as expendable as droids, Space Marines extremely less so.

Empire also has one advantage the Imperium simply doesn't have - aliens. Space Marines are strong, but Wookies are just as strong, and can be given more modern armour and weapons, while being counted to fight on, as Imperium will not give them or their planet quarter - and there is a lot more than million of them. Assassins are pinnacle of humanity, but training one takes mountains of credits, and the end result won't be that much better than good Noghri or Defel commando.

EDIT - as for mapping IoM territory, Empire Strikes Back shown us how they would do it - send tens of thousands of expendable probe droids in every possible directions, mapping which lanes are faster, which are dangerous, what is in the target system, etc. Hoth was found in mere weeks once Vader's squadron really pushed the issue, despite having only a slight idea in which oversector the rebel's base can be.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Not many new hyperspace routes are ever discovered, that's why there are so much Unknown Space. They don't even map stars in their own galaxy when Sith invade/flee, why would they do it when the IoM show up?

[Parra]

EDIT - as for mapping IoM territory, Empire Strikes Back shown us how they would do it - send tens of thousands of expendable probe droids in every possible directions, mapping which lanes are faster, which are dangerous, what is in the target system, etc. Hoth was found in mere weeks once Vader's squadron really pushed the issue, despite having only a slight idea in which oversector the rebel's base can be.

But they used pre-existing routes to pre-existing planets. Hoth wasnt a new discovery added to the Galactic Database. All the probe droids did was check for hiddened bases or other anomolies.

Once discoverd ofc they arrived pretty quickly, but again using already established hyperspace routes.

[hamishspence]

It was 50 inhabited worlds per sector during the Old Republic- however, this figure may have changed. In Spectre of the Past, there's 1000 systems in the Imperial Remnant, but only 8 Sectors.

And some sectors are even larger than that- the Corporate Sector contained thousands of worlds.

Also- where is the idea that only 10% of the Imperial Star Destroyers produced by the Empire, were used in the Imperial navy, coming from? 10% of the warships produced by the Empire, maybe, but that doesn't mean 10% of the Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

And the Imperial Sector Groups, as far as I can tell, are what make up the Navy- nothing appears to be said about them being completely separate:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy

[TheOasysMaster]

In the movies, we see the Empire get *basically* destroyed by its own internal instability.
I still yet to understand where in the movie the Empire gets 'basically' destroyed and by this supposed 'internal instability'...
The Empire lost an important battle, okay, but it still exists as a powerful force even 100 years afters Endor...
After Palpatine was killed, the Moffs managed to keep it together until Thrawn and Daala whipped them back into shape and Palpatine returned, after which they STILL managed to survive.


I mean, a standard Termie job is cleaning Space Hulks filled with Genestealers. They probably could murder a reasonably sized ship to the last man.
BEFORE they could jump to hyperspace?
BEFORE marine troopers would isolate and engage the invader?
BEFORE the area in which was transported was exposed to vacuum?
And even if they could clean it, that doesn't necessarily mean they could easily pilot and control the ship-different systems and doctrines in ship design.


However, you also neglect to mention the fact that Tech Marines can and have rerouted all control to the bridge on ships that have functions that are quite normally completely outside of the bridges control, and usually arrive with an entourage of 10 or so servitors for missions like that.
So, all you've done now is made the operation more complicated...
They have to teleport all these people accurately onto a ships bridge...
Capture the bridge...
And do it all in time before officers elsewhere can enact specific protocols to keep fighting...
It's not a 'one-hit kill' situation at all...


Still though, a pskyer's telekinetic powers are more than enough to eradicate a Jedi, though some Jedi are on par in power to mid to high-level psykers, as per in the force unleashed an entire Star Destroyer was pulled to the ground.

Force Unleashed is not canon.

There, I said it. I know someone wanted to.

It is S canon, making it only slightly above non canon. Since Vader being able to do things like he does in the game is a direct contradiction to the movies. It becomes NON CANON.
Except that it is canon. C-canon I believe...
Star Killer is probably one of the most...
...visibly destructive users of the Force, ever seen in the EU and the movies, unfortunately, there's only one of him, and only one Vader and one Palpatine...
There aren't enough of them to make a difference...
Perhaps Palpatine on a grand, Force-manipulating scale...
But they may be able to change the course of a battle at high-risk, but I doubt they can instantly change the tide of a war in the Empire's favor with impunity...


Psykers are definitely not limited to generic "Psychic" things.

Fire, teleporting, and enhancement = telekinesis? While we're talking about psyker's abilities some can also see into the future to predict actions and avoid their own deaths or other disasters. (Very rare/weak in humans though) Other nasty abilities is driving opponets insane by forcing them to look into the warp unsheilded or just ripping their mind apart with psycic force.
They're everything a Sith, like Star Killer, would want to be, but has never been portrayed in Star Wars as common...
The Force IS omnipotent, but nobody, not Palpatine, Anakin or Yoda, Bane, Obi-Wan, etc, have ever appeared to come CLOSE to consistently using it as such.
And also, at the time of the Galactic Civil War, there are no Jedi, and as per the Rule of Two, only two Sith Lords, with some Dark Side adepts hiding around Palpatine's palace...


Palpatine never uses it in critical battles like that of Endor. Even though he had the full ability to the entire time.
He was kinda busy aquiring a new apprentice...
And besides, ruling the whole galaxy, reveling in the power of the Dark Side i order to ensure your own immortality, just in case your apprentice tosses you down a bottomless shaft...
...kinda seemed like a good bet.


And it's agreed that we're only using material from the Original Triology, and the Imperium of Man is just before the 13th Black Crusade.
I don't know who said THAT...
This entire time we've been discussing the Galactic Civil War-era, and all and any other relevant materials.


Aye, in all likelihood, but the more general point is that the GE could have remained coherent if Palpy had, I dunno, shared that information ("The Vong are coming to rip us a new one!") with ANYONE. AT ALL. Instead, the GE got obliterated by a tiny, underfunded rebellion, with the help of teddy bears. Point being, there's an incredible leadership problem, and Imperial Stupidity affects tactics first, not last.
He was a Sith Lord, sharing doesn't come with the job description...
And Imperial Stupidity is only relevant when the plot needs it too...
At other times, they can be amazingly competent, and within the films too...

In fact, I can only think of ONE genuinely stupid decision made by the Empire throughout the WHOLE films...
When that officer doesn't fire upon the escaping pods with Threepio and Artoo aboard...
"No life systems", so he lets it go in a galaxy with droids and AI? THAT guy deserves a Vader chokehold.

And of course, that situation was convenient to the PLOT.


So why extend this to every character in the setting? Isn't it more fair to assume they will act as they would in real life, within bounds established by the setting. I.e. Feds will never commit genocide on a species no matter how convenient or strategically sound it would be, but nothing is stopping them from reverse-engineering every piece of technology they get their hands on. Which is the complete opposite of Imperium if my impression is correct.
QFT
A man after my own heart...


Yup- in Deathwatch, a Chief Librarian is described as being capable of destroying a fortress, or an army, with his powers- and virtually every chapter has at least one Chief Librarian, and some have "a handful" of Chief Librarians.
Yeah, you see THIS is the kind of stuff that continues to stack the odds against the Imperials...


If tactical FTL leaves a ship shieldless, then it will get the ship killed. Seeing the future is a common power among both Navigators and Psykers, and any battleship will have at least a few quite powerful examples of both. Diviners are a core aspect of Imperium tactics. A tactically jumping ships location will be known in advance so guns will be primed and aimed. After a few heavy losses, I'd say the capability would be mostly abandoned.
Doesn't looking into the Warp drive people insane? Staring at the hyperspace lines too long does the same thing? And even if they didn't...
When one enters hyperspace, they're travelling way faster than the speed of light...
Can the psykers really see the future concerning a ship flying through another dimension faster than the speed of light without their brains being turned to mush? If they could, wouldn't it be impossible to ambush an enemy by travelling through the Warp?


In other star wars novels, "ordinary" FTL seems to allow for the shields being up when the ship comes out. Which is why the Falcon isn't flattened by Alderaanian asteroids- because Han, being paranoid, always keeps the shields up when coming out of hyperspace.
Solo IS the man.


Besides, this is the Rebellion era. Most Force-users are underground at this point. The only notable Force-users in GE's forces are Darth Vader, the Emperor himself, and, depending on canon, maybe the Black Guard (you know, the guy with the lightsaber spear in Force Unleashed). Compare to enough psykers in the Imperium to sacrifice 1,000 to the GEoM EVERY SINGLE DAY, without appreciably denting the numbers.
Yeah, the Empire simply doesn't have enough Force-users who can make use of the Force like that to make a difference...
:smalleek:


C'baoth, in the Thrawn books, approaches that level of power- is able, eventually, to dominate the entire crew of a starship, across a distance of light-years.
I'm sorry to be shooting ourselves in the foot. But C'baoth is NOT to be trusted. Even in the original was a shady guy, and the clone is INSANE.
The only way the Empire would use him would be to send him in at a decisive battle with no expectation or wish for him to come back...
And still, thankfully, there's only one of him...

I HATED C'baoth...
:smallfurious:


It's likely to be less than a million- since that's the approximate number of worlds in the Imperium in the most recent rulebook-
It'd be nice if sourcebooks, for Star Wars and 40K, could clear that up for us...
The number of worlds...
How many build ships... weapons... How many are actually loyal, neutral or clearly rebellious...


Bear in mind that the entire Galactic Empire fleet of some 25,000 Star Destroyers was built in only 20 years, and the second Death Star was 3/4 complete in only six months in complete secrecy.



Who cares about star destroyers? They're merely a nuisance compared to any respectable WH40k ship. And I don't think that the death star is all that impressive compared to the warp and the demons from within. Put plainly, the WH universe is just too much more powerful than the GE that any faction in WH could easily defeat the GE.
The Death Star can move at lightspeed.
It can destroy a planet or a fleet every 24 hours.
And then leave moments after firing the shot.
And, apparently they can be mass-produced.
It's a big galaxy and Palpatine would have the precedence and the authority to commission the construction of more...
If it can be produced operationally in under a year, the Imperium will soon have a task-force of planet destroying ambushers to deal with.

Who cares about Star Destroyers?
You SHOULD care, whether it's one, two, three or a dozen, they can slag planets quickly, and efficiently.
They hold large numbers of troops. And more importantly they're fast.

And as iconic as the Destroyer is, it isn't the only ship in the Empire's arsenal.
There are Star Carriers and Dreadnaughts(Battleships)...


Except they don't because they cannot move fast enough, strategically or tactically, to make those numbers count worth a damn unless they contract their forces dramatically and cede the majority of their worlds without a fight. The Imperium of Man is specialised in fighting ground battles, but here it is pitted against an opponent specialised in fighting in space, the ultimate high ground.
The Imperial Navy is literally the EMpire's only hope...


However, the key difference here is that the Imperium has neither interest in prisoners nor in most of any given planet's natural resources - they're just fine with leaving only the mineral resources intact and simply blasting the atmosphere off of whatever world they're attacking. Is the GE going to be able to compensate for an enemy whose opening salvo is "Kill everything, the Emperor will sort them out later"?
Uh, why not?

You're assuming the Imperium is invading the Empire, who won't want to destroy their home planets... But if its the other way around, the Empire will be destroying planets while the Imperium defends them. A neutral, empty galaxy that both sides are colonizing is more fair.
Um, Dictatorship? The Emperor IS the Galactic Empire. HE decides the policy and the doctrines at the suggestions of his officials. And if they disagree, well, once again, I remind you he's the Dark Lord of the Sith who brought about the Revenge of the Sith. If planets need to be destroyed, they will be because Palpatine wills it so. THAT's how the Empire works.



Since when? In the EU, it's clarified that it has a very slow backup hyperdrive- it certainly can't exceed the speed of light in realspace.
Hey, does ANYBODY in the SW universe go to lightspeed in realspace?
Because we know ships have sublight engines and the hyperdrive...
Wait...
I'll just Wookiepedia it...
:smallconfused:


On the Empire- while the galaxy may have been warring for thousands of years, the last thousand years before the Clone Wars were very peaceful- so much so, in fact, that the Republic didn't maintain a standing army and fleet.

Might this lead to lack of experience, in the case of the Imperial Army and Navy that were founded during, and immediately after, the Clone Wars?
The military doctrines and strategies survived intact. Sure, the Clone Wars and the strategies may have been shaped by Palpatine to destroy the Jedi, but on a tactical level, on the battlefields and in space, the Republic was fighting on its own.
The Empire is more than competent enough to come up with a strategy and apply it accordingly. Look at the Tarkin Doctrine, with the Death Star! If Luke hadn't destroyed it before the official destruction of Alderaan could be made public, then it totally would have brought the Galaxy to its knees!


We're not including the prequel trilogy because it isn't the Empire then.
So, the fact that Anakin was a great pilot in his youth is irrelevant because the Empire didn't exist then?
Or perhaps we COULD just ignore the midichlorians because they're in Episode I(insert grin), even though they do explain somewhat why Vader isn't as powerful as one would hope.
Even though the Imperium is going to be dancing with the Galactic Civil War-era Empire, doesn't mean all other material is irrelevant. Fine, there are no Jedi to help them, but that doesn't mean we should chuck it all out the window.


Prequel stuff tends to be ignored because its a poorly written and inconsistant mess that goes against its own established cannon.
Sigh. :smallfrown:
Lucas...
Why did you do this to us?


The Imperium really has no equivalent to this. There isn't much civilian shipping. Trade, supply and transport are all handled by the charter captains. The entire merchant navy of the Imperium serves as the support arm of the battlefleets, at the behest of the Administratum.
I once suggested that the Empire would bribe or make a deal with these guys...
But it was pointed out that the Empire doesn't readily have anything to barter with...
Barring Palpatine infiltrating and corrupting them, I don't see how the Adminstratum could be exploited to cripple the Imperium.


In AotC, production output what we have seen on Geonosis outmatched typical IoM hive world by two orders of magnitude. We're talking about producing hundreds of thousands highly sophisticated battle droids per day vs outfitting one regiment of few thousand men per month. Cadia, the most heavily armed world in IoM spend centuries equipping their current army, 900 million soldiers, Geonosis produced more droids in half a year.
If the Empire could change its military doctrines to add droids...


Empire also has one advantage the Imperium simply doesn't have - aliens. Space Marines are strong, but Wookies are just as strong, and can be given more modern armour and weapons, while being counted to fight on, as Imperium will not give them or their planet quarter - and there is a lot more than million of them. Assassins are pinnacle of humanity, but training one takes mountains of credits, and the end result won't be that much better than good Noghri or Defel commando.
Nah, the Empire are xenophobic-aliens and wookies won't be effectively used until after Palpatine is dead.

If the Empire could stall long enough after initial contact with the Imperium, it could easily change its fighting style to heavily complement ground forces and clones supported by masses of droids, making this a far even fight.
ESPECIALLY since blasters are superior weapons in every way.

[Selrahc]

I still yet to understand where in the movie the Empire gets 'basically' destroyed and by this supposed 'internal instability'...


Thus, in the climax of the Galactic Civil War that was the Battle of Endor, the Empire was finally obliterated from the galaxy. Or so the Rebels thought.

So yeah, basically destroyed. Left as a shattered remnant that acts as a foe for the new republic.

Eventually there is a resurgence...


The Empire continued to remain beaten back until the return of Grand Admiral Thrawn, a military genius and the only non-human to climb the ranks of the Imperial Navy and the last remaining Grand Admiral. Grand Admiral Thrawn's campaign recaptured nearly half of the galaxy in the name of the Empire; however, it came to an end when Thrawn was assassinated by his own bodyguard

And when it fails, a second resurgence


When it seemed the Empire would never return, that hopes were lost, and that the Republic was finally close to victory, an enigmatic figure took the title of Emperor. However, this person was no new Emperor, for Emperor Palpatine had returned. Returning in fresh clone bodies imbued with the dead despot's spirit, he proceeded to rebuild his fallen Empire and six years later had finally regained the strength to again challenge the New Republic.


But neither of them are all that important.

Left to its own devices, the Star Wars galaxy collapses into destructive civil war, time after time. With Imperium backing, the first of these collapses would be accelerated. Thereafter, the situation would be drastically changed.

[DragonOfUndeath]

I actually think the Rebellion wouldn't form.
The Empire is less despotic, outwardly xenophobic and Evil than the Imperium and the Rebels would probably go 'Kill the Empire in a hard-fought slog only to have to deal with a worse regime or fight WITH the Empire to take out the Imperium THEN deal with the overall less xenophobic Empire. Tough choice. NOT'

[profitofrage]

I think we should remember that the Imperium of Man is Xeno Phobic for a reason. All the Xeno species they met wanted to enslave..eat or otherwise destroy them. The ones that didnt? are now building digital weapons for them...have many promising trade routes.. The IoM is xenophobic YES...but there "setting" xenos are ravenous monsters. There are plenty of examples of them meeting with reasonable races and using them to full advantage, its just rare to find a xeno species who doesnt also want to rule the universe.

[TheOasysMaster]

Thus, in the climax of the Galactic Civil War that was the Battle of Endor, the Empire was finally obliterated from the galaxy. Or so the Rebels thought.
Do the names of Thrawn and Dalaa mean anything to you?
The Empire didn't just collapse after Palpatine was destroyed.
Even its drop in power was caused because it lost a great deal of ships at Endor.
Casualties, not internal instability.
And despite that, the Empire was still a very real threat, haunting and maurading the New Republic to the point that IT began to suffer from internal instability.
The Empire savagely launched attacks from all directions and never stopped until treaties were made, such as that that brought into existence the Galactic Alliance.

And why would the Rebels want to help the religious fanatics defeat the Empire? They'd be next. And as competent as the Rebels may be, if the Empire falls, they'd be next.


So yeah, basically destroyed. Left as a shattered remnant that acts as a foe for the new republic.
That's a contradiction! How can they be basically destroyed and a shattered remnant that still acts as a foe for the New Republic, which has been claimed, in this thread, to be a far more likely candidate to the defeat of the Imperium? If ANY Galactic Civil War faction were to defeat the Imperium, it would be the Empire.
And if ANY Star Wars faction were to defeat the Imperium, it would be any of the Sith Empires that have plagued the galaxy from Darth Bane, Darth Revan and up to Darth Krayt.
They have the speed, the numbers, the weapons and the numbers of Dark Side users to make a difference.


Left to its own devices, the Star Wars galaxy collapses into destructive civil war, time after time. With Imperium backing, the first of these collapses would be accelerated. Thereafter, the situation would be drastically changed.
Every significant war has been facilitated between the conflicting ideologies of the Jedi and the Sith.
Dalaa and Boba Fett were remarking about it just before the GA came into existence; how it all really comes down to the galaxies innocent being on a grand checkerboard between a Sith Lord and the Jedi Order.
THAT's where the galaxy's civil wars and unrest come from. And in the Galactic Civil War era, the Sith have won, so no 'internal instability'.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Doesn't change the fact the Imperium is XENOPHOBIC compared to the Empire being merely Xenophobic. Sure they have a legit reason to hate non-humans, but will they tell the Empire and will the Empire make the reason common knowledge?

[hamishspence]

At least one Grand Admiral was xenophobic enough to exterminate the populations of various alien worlds:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Danetta_Pitta

despite being not completely human himself.

[DragonOfUndeath]

So 1 Admiral killed a few alien species due to Xenophobia.
Guess what the Imperium spend most/all their time trying to do on a galactic-scale?

[byaku rai]

What's the setting of this war, anyway? :smallconfused: I don't think I ever clarified. If the Imperium is invading the Star Wars universe, this could be interesting. Since every planet is going to be "cleansed" Great Crusade-style.

If the Empire is invading the WH universe, they get eaten by Tyranids. Game Over.

Otherwise... idk. You guys decide. This is fairly important in deciding who wins.

[hamishspence]

Guess what the Imperium spend most/all their time trying to do on a galactic-scale?

They also ally with various alien species as well- though these alliances tend to be short-term, and brokered by Rogue Traders.

The Imperium is significantly more xenophobic than the Empire though- so even with its willingness to ally with aliens if they believe them to be sufficiently useful and not corrupting, and even with the Galactic Empire's occasional xenocides (such as the attempt to exterminate the space-dwelling aliens of the Thonboka Nebula in the Lando Calrissian books),

it still seems like most aliens in the Star Wars universe would overlook the Empire's actions and side with it against the greater threat.

[DragonOfUndeath]

How about Teleport to level playing field?
Worlds under Imperium control or having Imperium on it are taken from the 40Kverse and put on one side of a Universe
Star Wars Universe on the other side, tiny strip of star systems between them with no life. First one to rule 90% of the total worlds, Coruscant and Holy Terra win.

[byaku rai]

Sounds good to me, and prevents the respective empires from dragging baggage (Necrons, Wookies, Daemons, etc.) onto the playing field. I originally intended this to be a humans-only, or at least very nearly humans-only, conflict. Sorry if that didn't come across well.

[DragonOfUndeath]

The Warp would become less violent going by canon as it is the combined psyche of every living creature and most of them were left behind. Not that it makes a difference since the Empire isn't gonna steal Warp Tech and the Gellar Field is good enough

[TheOasysMaster]

In our discussion, profitofrage and I have been assuming a neutral galaxy, with the Galactic Empire and the Imperium having met while colonizing it from different points.

The galaxy has resources, natives, and what else there may be that either side could exploit.

[The Glyphstone]

BEFORE they could jump to hyperspace?
BEFORE marine troopers would isolate and engage the invader?
BEFORE the area in which was transported was exposed to vacuum?
And even if they could clean it, that doesn't necessarily mean they could easily pilot and control the ship-different systems and doctrines in ship design.


To explore these points a bit more, the only one that will really matter is the jump to hyperspace, and all that does is isolate the Terminators from being rescued by someone else and force them to cleanse the ship before flying it back home themselves. If stormtroopers/marine troopers are engaging the Termies, that just saves them the trouble of hunting the heretics down, and venting to vacumn literally does nothing to someone wearing a self-contained environmentally sealed suit of walking tank armor. They even have magnetic boots, so shutting off gravity won't help either.

The rest of your points stand, but even a handful of Terminators loose on an Imperial ship effectively permanently writes off that ship as a military asset, and if this is a serious war of extermination (extremely unlikely, but it appears to have been presented as such), the Imperium has enough Terminator-armor-trained marines to use this tactic against every Star Destroyer the GE has. The blockage will be in teleportarium-equpped ships, and the eventual learning of GE forces to run the heck away from any Space Marine strike vessel before it can get into teleport attack range.

[TheOasysMaster]

The blockage will be in teleportarium-equpped ships, and the eventual learning of GE forces to run the heck away from any Space Marine strike vessel before it can get into teleport attack range.
Teleportarium?

So, where does teleport attack range fall in between ramming range and the extremes of turbolaser range?

[DragonOfUndeath]

I think the Imperials will steal the Hyperdrive Tech the first time one is recovered, finding new stuff that works better than the Warp would be very good and highly prized by the Imperium.

With the Orks and 'Nids gone, as well as the Taint of Chaos I think the Imperium will have an easy time taking down the Empire.

Their Psykers are better in general, in best vs best and in numbers to the Jedi/Sith and are readily used against the enemies of Man, thousands are sacrificed to the GEoM without taking them out! If Chaos was out of the picture then those thousands could be used to aid the other Psykers.

I'm staying out of the Ship-to-Ship combat, too muddy.

The Imperium regularly uses precision teleports in combat and the Terminators can clear the bridge easily, the Techies can simply shut down access to the other ports from the bridge (which would have a higher security clearance and be able to do that).

In close-combat the Marine and Terminator Armour and weapons would beat the Clones hands-down, Guard don't however and would be man-for-man equal to Clones.

[byaku rai]

turbolaser range should be roughly comparable to standard Imperium space combat range. Teleporting units from a ship in orbit to the surface of a planet or even beneath it is fairly standard, and Mechanicus ships seem to be able to teleport from even farther away (as per the artifact theft in the first Soul Drinker novel). Basically, if the Empire is within their engagement envelope, they can be boarded by 'porting.

[The Glyphstone]

Teleportarium?

So, where does teleport attack range fall in between ramming range and the extremes of turbolaser range?

Teleportarium = teleport chamber, like on Star Trek but a lot bigger.

[hamishspence]

If you're within 10,000 km of a starship, and it doesn't have Void Shields, you can teleport aboard (in Rogue trader, which is the main source for actual figures for things like ranges and speeds, in real terms).

Imperial shields might possibly do as a substitute.

10,000 km is the point where torpedoes acquire the target and start homing, where a ramming attack can be declared, where the debris/energy from a Nova Cannon strike will damage the ship even if it wasn't a direct hit, and so on.

Ranges, speeds, and so on in Rogue Trader are measured in Void Units- 1 Void Unit = 10,000 km.

Ship gun ranges tend to be longer though "standard" weapon batteries and lances have a normal combat range of 6 VU, but can hit (with significantly reduced accuracy) at 12 VU. The longest ranged batteries and lances are 12 VU (maximum range 24 VU.

Nova cannons have a minimum range of 6 VU, combat range of 40 VU, maximum range of 80 VU.

Unlike in BFG, torpedoes also have a maximum range- beyond which they shut down- 60VU.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Aren't Void Shields in the warp partially? And it's that, that stops teleporting?
Unless we decided Hyperspace=Warp-jumping like Tau use AND GE Shields are in Hyperspace (Which I don't think) then GE Shield =/= Teleport shield

[hamishspence]

True. It might be a bit unclear if it can stop that kind of teleporting or not.

40K shields can stop fast-moving physical objects (like shells) and a wide range of energy weapons- particle beams, ion attacks, etc, but can't stop torpedoes, or the bombs of bombers.

[byaku rai]

Are you sure about that? I always got the impression that void shields can stop anything up to their energy threshhold (the point where they overload and break)

[The Glyphstone]

I always had the impression that void shields didn't block bombers because they launched from inside the shield.

[hamishspence]

In BFG, bombers and torpedoes "ignore shields"- same in Rogue Trader. In Apocalypse, Titans get void shields vs ranged attacks, but not vs close combat attacks.

So its possible to pass through the shield (a bit like in Episode I when the droids march through the Gungan shield) and attack the target.


I always had the impression that void shields didn't block bombers because they launched from inside the shield.

The range given in Execution Hour, when the bombers launched their bomb/missiles, was 500 km. That's a pretty big shield if they launch from inside it. And given that ordinary torpedoes pass through the shields, hit the ship, and go boom, I thought the same probably applies to the weapons of bombers.

[Sacrieur]

I was under the impression that, while faster, the whole "Hyperdrive across the galaxy in a day or so" was due to hyperspace lanes?

With Hyperspace lanes being incredibly well mapped out and explored routes that avoided any gravitaional complications (black holes, stars etc). With establishing new Hyperspace lanes being a long and painstaking process.

If that understanding is correct, then would the GE be able to cherry pick which IoM systems to attack?
Or
Would they have to take months/years mapping out the IoM galaxy to make safe long distance hypersapce jumps?

If they had to use short-hop methods to conquer/liberate IoM systems step by step then there speed advantage diminishing considerably.

How would the IoM fare in discovering GE systems?

Yes, hyperspace lanes. There are many, many other lanes though. They're basically charted out by explorers. It's safe to say the GE fleet could reach most places in a week and a half. The Essential Atlas is a very suggested read, and even shows a map of Republic/Separatist occupation.

Just to be clear here. The GE have several techniques to block hyperspace travel. They enjoy laying traps by making artificial gravity wells in hyperspace that pull ships out of travel. They may then ambush the ship.

And the Republic would have won the war if it weren't for Palpatine. For the record, the Republic had far greater resources, a better trained army, etc.

I think it would be interesting to pit the Republic at its military height against the IoM. For one, there would not be Imperial Stupidity. For two, the clone troopers are a serious force to be reckoned with. And for three, they're led by generals who can see in the future.

[byaku rai]

Yes, hyperspace lanes. There are many, many other lanes though. They're basically charted out space lanes. It's safe to say the GE fleet could reach most places in a week and a half.

Except this is a brand new galaxy, with no hyperspace routes mapped out. Empire doesn't have maps. Imperium has Navigators. Problem?

[hamishspence]

It's only really fast ships like the Victory that seem to be able to cross the whole galaxy in days.

Considering that in the Thrawn books "cruising speed" for normal Star Destroyers was 3 light years per hour, a full Imperial fleet, with troop transports and so forth, might not be able to get around nearly as fast as high-speed ships like the Falcon or the Emperor's shuttle.

[Parra]

Yes, hyperspace lanes. There are many, many other lanes though. They're basically charted out space lanes. It's safe to say the GE fleet could reach most places in a week and a half.

Way I see is like the various road ways (highway, motorway, country roads etc) and the speed you can travel dependant on the quailty of the 'road'

Given that; how rapidly could they chart & navigate the completly unknown IoM systems?

Same question to IoM charting & navigating GE systems

[DragonOfUndeath]

Way I see is like the various road ways (highway, motorway, country roads etc) and the speed you can travel dependent on the quality of the 'road'

Given that; how rapidly could they chart & navigate the completely unknown IoM systems?

Same question to IoM charting & navigating GE systems

Charting new routes is described as incredibly dangerous and overall BAD things to do, so much so that new routes are simply not explored.

IoM would have a much easier time of things as they regularly charted new places before the Heresy with apparent ease, not sure about right now though I think it would be similar.

[byaku rai]

In the hypothetical new galaxy, IoM has a distinct advantage in that department because they have Navigators to get them from place to place. The charting for them seems to be quite a bit easier than GE's equivalent.

[DragonOfUndeath]

And so the Empire's speed advantage is negated on offense. They still have it on defense though.

[hamishspence]

Once a system is known though, the GE can "jump in" much further than the Imperium- who have to drop out at the edge of the system and make their way in at sublight.

[byaku rai]

Very true, as long as we assume space routes between planets haven't been changed by the sudden shift. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

yes- they'd need to map out the lanes to the new planets, before they could take advantage of their ability to jump further in.

The GE ships do have very good acceleration and turning ability though- so even if they might be comparable at maximum speeds, the GE could use those advantages.

40K ships, it must be said, turn and accelerate very slowly.

[byaku rai]

Where are you getting your info for turning quickly? In the movies, SDs always just sort of crawl towards opponents...

[DragonOfUndeath]

They make up for it in point-teleports and more guns than the GE Ships.
I think many more GE Ships are gonna be taken out of the fight than IoM Ships

[hamishspence]

Where are you getting your info for turning quickly? In the movies, SDs always just sort of crawl towards opponents...

A turn rate of a few degrees per second (in Empire Strikes Back, when the ships nearly collide) and a turn rate of 180 degrees in less than half a minute for a Mon Cal ship (in Return of the Jedi) are both a whole lot faster than 40K ships do.

In Rogue Trader, a game turn (in space) is 0.5 hours- a small ship like a Cobra can make 2 90 degree turns in 0.5 hours- if they focus all their effort on turning.

In BFG, a turn length is not defined, but the same turn rate (2 90 degree turns for an escort ship that's using the Come To New Heading special order, still applies).

[Lord_Gareth]

On the other hand, IoM ships can fire in more directions than "forward" and "forward".

[The Glyphstone]

though that does necessarily mean that their armament is divided between firing arcs, instead of being positioned for mass-forward firepower. So the SD's lack of off-bore targeting might be compensated for by its maneuverability.

Also, if any splicer or droid can control an entire SD at full capacity, how did taking out the bridge of the Executor in RTJ make it crash?

[Reverent-One]

On the other hand, IoM ships can fire in more directions than "forward" and "forward".

So can GE ships.

[DragonOfUndeath]

So can GE ships.

IoM fires omni-directional with better guns and more of them. They trade off manouvering for that but meh, worth it.

[Lord_Gareth]

So can GE ships.

Not that I've ever seen, not to mention numerous examples of inferior sensors (Han parked the Falcon ON AN SD) and, again, patented Imperial Stupidity. Their snubnose fighters, at the very least, were designed by drunken fools, and this fact is contested by almost no one.

[Reverent-One]

IoM fires omni-directional with better guns and more of them. They trade off manouvering for that but meh, worth it.

Better guns is obviously something that arugable (as it commonly ends up being argued about), and entirely besides the point. I was responding to the idea that GE can't shoot in any direction but forward that Gareth seems to have.


Not that I've ever seen,

Then be informed. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ackbar_Slash)


not to mention numerous examples of inferior sensors (Han parked the Falcon ON AN SD)

Which has what to do with the directions their guns can turn and fire? Though on that note, can IoM ships detect a block of metal a fraction the size of the ship stuck to the outside of it?


Their snubnose fighters, at the very least, were designed by drunken fools, and this fact is contested by almost no one.

In that their fighters are fragile little things that rely pretty much solely on swarm tactics, sure. Still, that was the design goal, they're cheap and the Empire has plenty of manpower.

[doliest]

So, if we're using a galaxy generally free of both setting's baggage...and there are no Ruinious powers, at least not in full force....doesn't that mean the Emperor of Mankind's mind and power is freed up for use on the Empire?

[Sacrieur]

Mapping out space lanes has been a largely refined process. It is incredibly dangerous, but not so much any more. Astronavigators don't necessarily plot space lanes so much as plot gravity wells. Navcomputers must have updated data on every universal body that could affect its path.

And Palpatine may be an overconfident pompous ass, but he's clever. Extremely clever. He, a single man, managed to take control of an entire galaxy through deceit. I would not underestimate him. He is brutal and vicious.

You know all of those homeworlds of the IoM? He will lay waste to them first with the death star without any prior warning.

[Gullintanni]

So, if we're using a galaxy generally free of both setting's baggage...and there are no Ruinious powers, at least not in full force....doesn't that mean the Emperor of Mankind's mind and power is freed up for use on the Empire?

This is something that doesn't get mentioned enough IMO. We know that the Empire has some access to force users, but what about the Librarians? What about the Emperor?

Aren't some of the IoM's Psykers powerful enough to rend ships from across galaxies? I don't know the fluff surrounding them that well, but it seems to me that any entity whose power is shackled by having to fend off the terrors of the Warp would be significantly more powerful absent that limitation.

Has that been addressed?

[DragonOfUndeath]

The Ruinous Powers would still be there by the terms. They are the combined psyche of all sapient/sentient life. Without the Eldar, 'Nids etc. Chaos would be weakened but still around and fueled by the GE as well.
It would turn Cuthulu into a Sith Lord basically, still a threat (and ties up the GEoM but less so) but not enough to be a game-player itself.
This step down would stabilize the Warp however, making travel times faster and more predictable.

[Sacrieur]

This is something that doesn't get mentioned enough IMO. We know that the Empire has some access to force users, but what about the Librarians? What about the Emperor?

Aren't some of the IoM's Psykers powerful enough to rend ships from across galaxies? I don't know the fluff surrounding them that well, but it seems to me that any entity whose power is shackled by having to fend off the terrors of the Warp would be significantly more powerful absent that limitation.

Has that been addressed?

There is controversy over the actual power of pskyers. Alpha plus and Alpha share the highest level of uncertainty as to just how strong they are. Besides that, Alpha/Alpha plus are regarded as nearly unusable for any purpose because most of them are completely bloody insane. And if they aren't they will be soon.

Which leaves the highest level to be Beta.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Psykers of almost any level can own Vader and the Emperor. Psykers are Force-Usersx99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999

[byaku rai]

Sadly, the GEoM, being a mostly inanimate corpse, probably wouldn't be able to bring much to the field unless he was able to spontaneously reanimate. Which he might actually be able to do without the Chaos Gods interfering. :smalleek: With the Emperor fighting beside them, IoM has won. Period.

But we can't base anything there on anything more than suspicion, so I'd say unlikely at best. Meaningless for the purpose of this discussion.

[DragonOfUndeath]

So Warp becomes reliable and slightly faster but GEoM is still locked up dealing with the remnants and still beaconing

[Sacrieur]

Psykers of almost any level can own Vader and the Emperor. Psykers are Force-Usersx99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999

Eh, not quite. This has been discussed before and force user vs. pskyer would be interesting. A high delta vs. a Jedi Knight would be interesting.

High Delta
- Read minds. Entire towns at once.
- Enough telekinetic force to crush someone against a wall.
- Self-augmentation in strength.
- Force fields

Jedi Knight
- Battle Meditation.
- Lightsaber/Lightsaber forms.
- Roughly the same level of telekinetic power.
- Can slow apparent time and appear to move more quickly.
- Can see the immediate future.
- Have training to prevent mind reading/manipulation/control.

---

Jedi Knights really shouldn't be taken lightly. As displayed in Episode I, Obi-wan easily knocked over droids without much thought. Full fledged Jedi Knights do have enough force to crush someone against a wall. They just don't due to their "code". And the Sith seem to enjoy the most painful applications of the force, such as force lightning or force choke.

Mind reading/manipulation/control is another matter. I'm not sure how a Jedi Knight would hold up against a Delta, but I don't think it so one sided that a Delta could crush him in an instant within his mind. Some Jedi Knights have a particularly increased training for this sort of thing, and are not swayed by the most powerful of mind manipulation and control techniques (See Depa Billaba).

[Gullintanni]

Eh, not quite. This has been discussed before and force user vs. pskyer would be interesting. A high delta vs. a Jedi Knight would be interesting.

High Delta
- Read minds. Entire towns at once.
- Enough telekinetic force to crush someone against a wall.
- Self-augmentation in strength.
- Force fields

Jedi Knight
- Battle Meditation.
- Lightsaber/Lightsaber forms.
- Roughly the same level of telekinetic power.
- Can slow apparent time and appear to move more quickly.
- Can see the immediate future.
- Have training to prevent mind reading/manipulation/control.

---
Jedi Knights really shouldn't be taken lightly.

Okay so assuming all of this, how fares the Empire knowing that they have two Force Users, given very powerful ones, against all of the IoM Librarians. And the Grey Knights...I'll easily concede to the GEoM being out of the picture just because with him involved, apparently the battle is trivial and at present he's currently a corpse.

[Sacrieur]

Okay so assuming all of this, how fares the Empire knowing that they have two Force Users, given very powerful ones, against all of the IoM Librarians. And the Grey Knights.

See Dark Side Adepts (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Side_Adept). Though probably not as powerful as Jedi Knights.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Okay so assuming all of this, how fares the Empire knowing that they have two Force Users, given very powerful ones, against all of the IoM Librarians. And the Grey Knights...I'll easily concede to the GEoM being out of the picture just because with him involved, apparently the battle his trivial and at present he's currently a corpse.

Here is a recreation of the scene:
"If you only knew the po-" Crushed, incinerated, scattered all over the planet then that planet completely destroyed
Note that this is a good estimate (he got to the 6th word before being killed)

[Sacrieur]

Here is a recreation of the scene:
"If you only knew the po-" Crushed, incinerated, scattered all over the planet then that planet completely destroyed
Note that this is a good estimate (he got to the 6th word before being killed)

Palpatine beat like 6 Jedi Masters who were on the council in lightsaber combat at once. He only lost to Mace Windu, whom he then tricked and killed.

I would not consider him so weak... He is... Terrifically powerful.

[Urist]

Psykers of almost any level can own Vader and the Emperor. Psykers are Force-Usersx99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999
Force Storm (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(wormhole)) would like a word with you. As would Drain (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_drain).

[Gullintanni]

Ok that's all well and good, but having done some reading, Varro Tigurius, Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines was able to establish a psychic connection with the Tyranid Hive Mind...a creature which, by my understanding of the universe, has never been seen and lies at the outlying fringe of the 40K universe.

Given that kind of range, and that Varro Tigurius is not the most powerful of the Space Marine Librarians, how could the Force Adepts serving under the Emperor even be a relevant threat? Without even going outside the Codexes, Mephiston of the Blood Angels and Ezekiel of the Dark Angels seem more than a match for the Emperor and Darth Vader.

And we haven't even involved the Grey Knights, whose psykers are, and again this is just from what I've read casually, the most powerful in the Imperium. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the presence of these kinds of psychic threats nullify rather quickly any sort of leadership present in the Empire?

[DragonOfUndeath]

Palpatine beat like 6 Jedi Masters who were on the council in lightsaber combat at once. He only lost to Mace Windu, whom he then tricked and killed.

I would not consider him so weak... He is... Terrifically powerful.

That was Vader I was talking about but the same thing applies, Psykers are in general more powerful, in numbers more powerful and the poster asked how would 'Vader+Palpatine Vs Imperium Psykers, all of them' go.
That was the answer

[Urist]

Here is a recreation of the scene:
"If you only knew the po-" Crushed, incinerated, scattered all over the planet then that planet completely destroyed and then all of the psykers are ripped to pieces as warp entities, drawn to their power, shred their minds and bodies to pieces, a new Daemon World is born, and the Imperium has lost a great deal more than the Empire has.
Note that this is a good estimate (he got to the 6th word before being killed)
Fixed it for you:smallwink:.

[Gullintanni]

Fixed it for you:smallwink:.

I don't think this is applicable. I believe we've been discussing 40K vs. GE, outside other intervention. No Tyranids, no Jedi...everyone's full strength and fully focused on the conflict. The ruinous powers are out. Which means no warp demons, no chaos gods. No abominations that can reach across the vastness of time into the minds of unborn children and send them screaming into oblivion...you know...none of that.

Just Limitless Power...I may be wrong. I don't know fully the context of the debate.

[Sacrieur]

Ok that's all well and good, but having done some reading, Varro Tigurius, Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines was able to establish a psychic connection with the Tyranid Hive Mind...a creature which, by my understanding of the universe, has never been seen and lies at the outlying fringe of the 40K universe.

Given that kind of range, and that Varro Tigurius is not the most powerful of the Space Marine Librarians, how could the Force Adepts serving under the Emperor even be a relevant threat? Without even going outside the Codexes, Mephiston of the Blood Angels and Ezekiel of the Dark Angels seem more than a match for the Emperor and Darth Vader.

And we haven't even involved the Grey Knights, whose psykers are, and again this is just from what I've read casually, the most powerful in the Imperium. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the presence of these kinds of psychic threats nullify rather quickly any sort of leadership present in the Empire?

It all makes the case for an interesting battle. It's really hard to say who will win, because they're just that close in power. Not saying that the GE would stomp IoM. Quite the opposite, it'll be a grueling and hard fought battle. There will be incredible casualties on both sides.

[DragonOfUndeath]

The Warp Daemons are less powerful and numerous remember?
And maybe destroying the planet is a bit much but you get the point, Vader is doomed and Palpatine only slightly less so.

[Gullintanni]

It all makes the case for an interesting battle. It's really hard to say who will win, because they're just that close in power. Not saying that the GE would stomp IoM. Quite the opposite, it'll be a grueling and hard fought battle. There will be incredible casualties on both sides.

I think IoM has the edge so far as Psykers vs. Force Powers are concerned. Not to portray the GE as weak, but there's a grandness of scale that Psykers can accomplish that all but the most powerful Sith Lords can not hope to fathom. Palpatine is certainly powerful, but he can't vaporize people from light years away using only his mind. That's not (usually) the way the force works.

Vader really doesn't operate on the same level as Palpatine or any of the Astartes Chief Librarians imho. That leaves Palpatine to fend off the long-range psychic threats...and there's only one of him that plays with power on that level. Put all of the Chief Librarians on the task and I think there's just too many of them to deal with.

[Sacrieur]

I think IoM has the edge so far as Psykers vs. Force Powers are concerned. Not to portray the GE as weak, but there's a grandness of scale that Psykers can accomplish that all but the most powerful Sith Lords can not hope to fathom. Palpatine is certainly powerful, but he can't vaporize people from light years away using only his mind. That's not (usually) the way the force works.

Vader really doesn't operate on the same level as Palpatine or any of the Astartes Chief Librarians imho. That leaves Palpatine to fend off the long-range psychic threats...and there's only one of him that plays with power on that level. Put all of the Chief Librarians on the task and I think there's just too many of them to deal with.

As I mentioned before, Alpha and Alpha plus are not usable. Which leaves Beta. Though I agree that the IoM has the edge on this.