Giving the Sorcerer a purpose (A response to another thread...)

[Maho-Tsukai]

A recent thread on here on what the purpose of a sorcerer is with the presence of a wizard and it showed me that the sorcerer is in need of something more to make it unique and different from the wizard in terms other then flavor. Thus, I have a way that MAY work, but I want your opinions. The idea is simple twofold. First, instead of having a wizard/sorcerer spell list simply make it the wizard spell-list and instead allow sorcerers to select their spells known from any spell list except those unique to prestege classes.(So domain spell lists and any base class spell list are open.) Secondly, in addition to their fammilar, allow sorcerers to obtain a cleric domain of their choice that themeatically fits their character concept and at the same levels a wizard would gain bonus feats they gain an additional domain. The spells of these domains would be added to their spells known at the levels they gain the ability to cast spells of the equlivilent level. (So somebody wanting to make an "undead" blooded sorcerer could take domains like undeath and deathbound, or a dragon-based sorcerer could take domains like dragon, dragon bellow ect...)

So, do you think this would make the sorc different enough from a wizard or is he still too simmilar even after these changes?

[Doc Roc]

Sorcerer is, in my mind, already a Tier one class. I know a lot of people don't think so, but if you're curious, I can demonstrate why.

[mucco]

Sorcerer is, in my mind, already a Tier one class. I know a lot of people don't think so, but if you're curious, I can demonstrate why.

I, for one, am curious. :smalltongue:

[TheGeckoKing]

Sorcerer is, in my mind, a Tier one class. I know a lot of people don't think so, but if you're curious, I can demonstrate why.

Go for it. I'm genuinely curious, 'cause I always thought the spell list was a pain to increase to any decent size, which limited it a lot.

[Vladislav]

There's a feat for that, actually, called Arcane Disciple. Whenever I play a caster with a limited spell selection, I always try to grab Arcane Disciple to give my char a bit more options. Giving it automatically to all Sorcerers? I guess it could work. We can have a Healing Sorcerer, a Protection Sorcerer, a Plant Sorcerer, etc. Accounts for some versatility.

[Maho-Tsukai]

My goal is not to move it to tier 1. My goal is to make it different from a wizard in some way. I thought giving them acssess to spells a wizard normally cant have, and boosting their spells-known with domains would make them better for all those people why say they are just a watered down wizard. Also, please, do demonstrate that as I personally place sorcs as a solid tier 2 and if you can prove them to be tier 1 I'd be happy because it would mean I can finally play a tier 1 charisma based character who is not an artificer or forced to take lost traditions at first level to swap their casting stat for cha.

Also, arcane disciple is a good feat but is wisdom-based which means your essentually a dual-stat caster, and we all know how wonderful that worked for the Favored Soul...I generally despise the idea of having two casting stats and thus I tend to dislike arcane disciple. Though it may not be all that bad if your using it for spells with no saves.(Which seems like your approch since your using heals and such.)

[TheGeckoKing]

There's a feat for that, actually, called Arcane Disciple. Whenever I play a caster with a limited spell selection, I always try to grab Arcane Disciple to give my char a bit more options. Giving it automatically to all Sorcerers? I guess it could work. We can have a Healing Sorcerer, a Protection Sorcerer, a Plant Sorcerer, etc. Accounts for some versatility.

Yes, but that's keyed off Wis, which makes it icky.

[HalfDragonCube]

My goal is not to move it to tier 1. My goal is to make it different from a wizard in some way. I thought giving them acssess to spells a wizard normally cant have, and boosting their spells-known with domains would make them better for all those people why say they are just a watered down wizard. Also, please, do demonstrate that as I personally place sorcs as a solid tier 2 and if you can prove them to be tier 1 I'd be happy because it would mean I can finally play a tier 1 charisma based character who is not an artificer or forced to take lost traditions at first level to swap their casting stat for cha.

Also, arcane disciple is a good feat but is wisdom-based which means your essentually a dual-stat caster, and we all know how wonderful that worked for the Favored Soul...I generally despise the idea of having two casting stats and thus I tend to dislike arcane disciple. Though it may not be all that bad if your using it for spells with no saves.(Which seems like your approch since your using heals and such.)

Sorcerer/Favoured Soul Mystic Theurge Build?

Almost certainly sucky, but interesting in its own little way.

[Doc Roc]

So, barring some serious hacks, Sorcerers get:
The Fusion Line, uniquely.
Arcane Spellsurge, one of the most powerful action econ hacks around.
True Spontaneous casting. I know about Spontaneous Divination, don't worry.
Uncontested access to Practical Metamagic.
Loredrake (Contested but fixable) and Greater Rite.
A very jackable casting stat.
Drakehelms.
Rings of Theurgy.
Runestaves.
A couple really good prestige classes.
Access to Jacob's Ladder.
Psychic Reformation means I Know KungFu.

[Vladislav]

Yes, but that's keyed off Wis, which makes it icky.And if a Sorcerer wants to attack with his crossbow, or throw a Ray of Enfeeblement, that's keyed of Dex, what is your point? If you want your character to have extra options, you will have to live with some amount of MAD.

[Sacrieur]

I also support the notion that Sorcerers are tier 1. They can learn /any/ spell. Ever.

[dextercorvia]

And if a Sorcerer wants to attack with his crossbow, or throw a Ray of Enfeeblement, that's keyed of Dex, what is your point? If you want your character to have extra options, you will have to live with some amount of MAD.

It also eats up spells known, and they can only cast those spells 1/day.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Really? Last time I checked, sorcerers can only learn spells off the Wiz/Sorc list....or are you going by a totally literal and 99.9% of the time dismissed reading of their offical class entry that uses the clause "mostly drawn" from then wiz/sorc list as justification for your claim?

[Vladislav]

Dextercorvia: Yes, well, I agree a slight improvement to Arcane Disciple can be in order, but still, you shouldn't get something for nothing. Maybe have it in addition to Spells Known, is good enough? (still 1/day, and Wis-based, though)

[Sacrieur]

Really? Last time I checked, sorcerers can only learn spells off the Wiz/Sorc list....or are you going by a totally literalist and 99.9% of the time dismissed reading that uses the clause "mostly drawn" from then wiz/sorc list?


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.
source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)


That ludicrously vague statement means that a sorcerer can learn any spell.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That would not be an improvement since the reason Arcane Disciple fails hard is because it's wisdom based. The 1/day is no big issue, either is eating your spell slots. the big issue is you need AT THE LEAST 19 wisdom to get the full benifit of arcane discple and even with 19 wis your saves are going to suck, limiting you even further by making it so you have to take spells with no save. To "fix" arcane disciple you'd have to make it not keyed of wisdom, pure and simple.

Also, that statement is so vauge that it could be ruled to refer to the few sorcerer only spells that exsist. Likewise, even if thats RAW, there are some things that the vast bulk of DMs consider to be as good as RAW thats actually RAI...such as giving Dread Necromancers rebuke that actually works(By RAW their rebuke can't actually rebuke anything.)...I had always thought the "sorcers draw their spells from only the wiz/sorc list" to be one of those instances where even the most by the books DMs will use RAI over RAW.

[TheGeckoKing]

And if a Sorcerer wants to attack with his crossbow, or throw a Ray of Enfeeblement, that's keyed of Dex, what is your point? If you want your character to have extra options, you will have to live with some amount of MAD.

Yes, but that's unnecessary MAD, because I can't think of any spell that really jumps out at "OMG I MUST LEARN THIS" other than a few broken spells. Anyway, i'd rather use the Bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium, which are similar but just add the spells onto your list.

Also, I totally forgot about half the things Doc Roc mentioned. Still wouldn't say they're Tier 1, but they're at the top of Tier 2 for sure. Mainly because of all the spells, but still.





That ludicrously vague statement means that a sorcerer can learn any spell.

Oh, come on. No-one takes that line seriously. It's up there with letting Dragonwrought Kobolds qualify for Loredrake. You know it's more or less right, but it's so poorly defined that no-one pays any attention to it bar the most borked up TO. The only class that can learn any spell is an Archivist, and that requires some high cheese.

[Vladislav]

That would not be an improvement since the reason Arcane Disciple fails hard is because it's wisdom based. The 1/day is no big issue, either is eating your spell slots. the big issue is you need AT THE LEAST 19 wisdom to get the full benifit of arcane discple and even with 19 wis your saves are going to suck, limiting you even further by making it so you have to take spells with no save. To "fix" arcane disciple you'd have to make it not keyed of wisdom, pure and simple.And that would be the proverbial "getting something for nothing". Would you argue that to "fix" the light crossbow, you should have the sorcerer have it not keyed off Dexterity? (i hope not)

Also, I fail to see the problem of "at least 19 wisdom". Start with 13, which will carry you all the way to level 7. By level 8, get a +2 item, by level 12 a +4 item, and by level 16, a +6 item. Which you certainly can afford. Problem solved. Save DCs? Deal with it. Pick a good domain.

[Cog]

And that would be the proverbial "getting something for nothing".
Last time I checked, Arcane Disciple wasn't a free feat.

[Vladislav]

Last time I checked, Arcane Disciple wasn't a free feat.

The OP is effectively suggesting it to be free.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Of course not, but a crossbow is diffetent in the fact you don't need at least 19 dex to actually hit with it. 14 dex is usually enough for a sorc to be ok with a crossbow if he needs to. Arcane disciple however demands that you have at the least 19 wisdom, and if you want to take anything with saves your going to need more. The MAD with arcane disciple is not an issue in of itself, rather it's the ammount of MAD thats the problem. Like I said, you need really only 14 dex(and some may go as low as 12) for the crossbow and it is a WHOLE lot easier to get 14 dex then 19 wisdom. You'd basicly need either REALLY lucky rolls, an excessivley generous point buy or a crapload of items just to get the bare minimum wisdom needed to make full use of arcane disciple let alone actually use it for save-based spells.

So if you want arcane disciple to be "wisdom based' and not suck the only way it could be done is by having a prerequsit for the feat be having a wisdom score of at least 14 or something simmilar.

Also, I am not discussing arcane disciple as a part of the class. Thats a whole different issue though if thats what your talking about I do agree it's overpowered.

[gbprime]

The OP is effectively suggesting it to be free.

Which, IMO, it shouldn't be.

A number of local groups, mine included, alter the sorcerer by giving it skills equal to an Expert (6 per level, any 10 class skills). Limited spell selection + good battery life + skill monkey. Done.

[TheGeckoKing]

And that would be the proverbial "getting something for nothing". Would you argue that to "fix" the light crossbow, you should have the sorcerer have it not keyed off Dexterity? (i hope not)

Also, I fail to see the problem of "at least 19 wisdom". Start with 13, which will carry you all the way to level 7. By level 8, get a +2 item, by level 12 a +4 item, and by level 16, a +6 item. Which you certainly can afford. Problem solved. Save DCs? Deal with it. Pick a good domain.

You are saying that someone has to pay money, and limit their choices to the most powerful domains, just to use the full effects of their feat.
I would say that the feat in question is a rubbish feat.

[Doc Roc]

Yes, but that's unnecessary MAD, because I can't think of any spell that really jumps out at "OMG I MUST LEARN THIS" other than a few broken spells. Anyway, i'd rather use the Bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium, which are similar but just add the spells onto your list.

Also, I totally forgot about half the things Doc Roc mentioned. Still wouldn't say they're Tier 1, but they're at the top of Tier 2 for sure. Mainly because of all the spells, but still.

Psychic ref I think puts them in the bottom of T1, since you can execute it inside a rope trick or similar, and come out Different in a way that a Wizard may be hard pressed to match.

[TheGeckoKing]

Psychic ref I think puts them in the bottom of T1, since you can execute it inside a rope trick or similar, and come out Different in a way that a Wizard may be hard pressed to match.

Depends. Other than Leadership, what do you think the best way of getting said power would be? Or, more specifically, what would the price of a 50 Charge item of Psychic Reformation be?

[Sacrieur]

Oh, and don't think the sorcerer is even limited to arcane spells. Divine spells count per that definition as well, they're simply casted as arcane spells.

[Maho-Tsukai]

There is an Arcane/Psionic theurge class but it's from dragon magizene so good luck trying to get it past your GM. Otherwise, your going to have to spend quite a bit of gold to get it(sans leadership), and since it would be from an item or cohort it dose not change your class' tier. A sorcerer with a item or cohort that can cast psychic refromation is still a tier 2 because that power would be one not provided by his own class. I don't think you would say a fighter is a tier 1 because he can take leadership and have a wizard cohort. The same rule applies here. Unless the sorcerer can do it due to his class he's not going from tier 2 to tier 1. The tier system however is not all that important and in all honesty the best teir to be in is tier 3.

[Telonius]

Oh, come on. No-one takes that line seriously. It's up there with letting Dragonwrought Kobolds qualify for Loredrake. You know it's more or less right, but it's so poorly defined that no-one pays any attention to it bar the most borked up TO. The only class that can learn any spell is an Archivist, and that requires some high cheese.

Personally I've never had a player ask about this, and it does reek of cheese. However (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)...


Spells

A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.

At least for me, the biggest fluff bit about Sorcerers is the draconic bloodline. IF (and that's one big if) the player can give me a really convincing roleplay reason why a Sorcerer should have something that would normally only be on the Cleric list, I'd probably let him add it to his list.

EDIT: Just in general though - in my own games, I prefer to have the Sorcerer steal the Wizard's bonus feats, and get Eschew Materials as a bonus first-level spell (applicable to Sorcerer spells only). No extra casting time for casting spontaneous metamagic either.

[Sacrieur]

Personally I've never had a player ask about this, and it does reek of cheese. However (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)...



At least for me, the biggest fluff bit about Sorcerers is the draconic bloodline. IF (and that's one big if) the player can give me a really convincing roleplay reason why a Sorcerer should have something that would normally only be on the Cleric list, I'd probably let him add it to his list.

It's not necessarily that. I mean suppose you've seen your Cleric cast the spell, for the next few weeks you figure out how to replicate it with arcane magic.

[TheGeckoKing]

Oh, and don't think the sorcerer is even limited to arcane spells. Divine spells count per that definition as well, they're simply casted as arcane spells.

Mmmm. And Monks aren't proficient with their own unarmed strikes.

Anyway, no matter how hard I think about it, I'm still not convinced. In order to achieve a versatility like the other Tier 1's, we're having to refer to two multiple "casting" systems, your having to pay a not-cheap sum of money every 50 times, and i'm not sure about the XP cost of the whole thing. And the spells/items that make the Sorcerer break the game in a Tier 1 fashion come from about 5/6 books.

A Wizard needs nothing but the core stuff to break the game, pays near nothing to update his spellbook (compaired to blowing money on an item of Psychic Ref, anyway), can do the spell-switcheroo from day 1, and can do said switcheroo by sleeping and then looking at his books funny for a minute.

/rant.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I personally would not mind running sorcs that way since it would make them stand out from the wizard but DMs who'd allow it are few are far between. In my own group that I'm forming I may allow it, though.

[Doc Roc]

Depends. Other than Leadership, what do you think the best way of getting said power would be? Or, more specifically, what would the price of a 50 Charge item of Psychic Reformation be?

Limited Wish & DweomerKeeper?

Remember, tier 1 is a wide range, wider in some senses than tier two or three. I'm only saying that sorc sits in the bottom edge of that range.

[Sacrieur]

Mmmm. And Monks aren't proficient with their own unarmed strikes.

Anyway, no matter how hard I think about it, I'm still not convinced. In order to achieve a versatility like the other Tier 1's, we're having to refer to two multiple "casting" systems, your having to pay a not-cheap sum of money every 50 times, and i'm not sure about the XP cost of the whole thing. And the spells/items that make the Sorcerer break the game in a Tier 1 fashion come from about 5/6 books.

A Wizard needs nothing but the core stuff to break the game, pays near nothing to update his spellbook (compaired to blowing money on an item of Psychic Ref, anyway), can do the spell-switcheroo from day 1, and can do said switcheroo by sleeping and then looking at his books funny for a minute.

/rant.

Well, I mean the Sorcerer can cast more spells per day, he just doesn't know as many spells. The benefit is that he can know any spell. This, in my opinion, is pretty damn good definition of versatility.

I never thought there was a problem with being capable and prepared in every situation since limited wish and wish grants you every spell list.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, but the idea that a sorcerer can learn spells off of any list is one that is not widely excepted and actually considered total rubbish the vast majority of DMs and players. So, unless you have a DM who's extremely leniant chances are that your sorc is going to be stuck with only the wiz/sorc list which makes that point irrelivent.

[TheGeckoKing]

Well, I mean the Sorcerer can cast more spells per day, he just doesn't know as many spells. The benefit is that he can know any spell. This, in my opinion, is pretty damn good definition of versatility.

I never thought there was a problem with being capable and prepared in every situation since limited wish and wish grants you every spell list.

I agree, actually. Shame about the XP cost. Oh, and I hate to be a kill-joy, I really do, but the PHB does not lie....


Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard
can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a
magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the
spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing
(see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day
studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft
check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a
school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new
spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any
spells from her prohibited schools.
If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can
copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook,
below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from
unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears
from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell.
She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains
another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a
scroll does not vanish from the scroll.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying
spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s
level × 50 gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higherlevel
spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them
altogether. Wizards friendly to one another often trade access to
equal-level spells from each other’s spellbooks at no cost.

And there's no two ways about it, like the Sorcerer. God, I hate WotC sometimes.

And then you have the Druid who just laughs, because he doesn't need spells to make the Fighter feel like manure.
And then you have the Archivist, who was doing this anyway, and much easier.
And then you have the Artificer, who has been doing it quicker than you.
And then you have the Psionic Artificer, who does more or less the same with powers.
And then there's the StP Erudite, who has all of the above AND every power he damn well wants, ruling over as the Emissary of the great Omni-Kobold himself.

/cheese expo.

[Sacrieur]

Yes, but the idea that a sorcerer can learn spells off of any list is one that is not widely excepted and actually considered total rubbish the vast majority of DMs and players. So, unless you have a DM who's extremely leniant chances are that your sorc is going to be stuck with only the wiz/sorc list which makes that point irrelivent.

It simply means the DMs aren't playing the class as it was designed, and it doesn't at all render my argument pointless. The sorcerer as described in the PHB is tier 1. There's plenty of DMs who dumb down wizards or straight off the bat don't allow tier 1 or 2 classes, it doesn't mean those classes aren't tier 1 or 2, it means the DM is just using his fiat to get what he wants.

---

Besides that, there are a lot of DMs who blindly say anything in the PHB goes. If that's the case then denying them that class feature but allowing everything else is hypocritical.

[Gametime]

The argument for sorcerers being able to learn spells from any list uses a phrase that is so vague there is no limit on adjudication. When the books fail to lay out what the criteria are for learning spells that aren't on the sorcerer/wizard list, the responsibility falls to the DM. So even if you subscribe to this (patently ridiculous) reading of the rules, there's no reason to expect that your sorcerer will actually be able to learn any non-arcane spells; after all, there's no method outlined for doing so, so who knows whether you'll be able to pull it off?