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Kol Korran
2011-04-15, 01:24 PM
hello again forum. for purposes of building a villain, i'm looking for any template or mechanic that enables a creature to transform into a swarm. i'm sure i've heard that something like that existed, i just don't know where. can you point me out?

thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

(for personal use- key word search: Tomer)
Coidzor
2011-04-15, 01:30 PM
Libris Mortis has something like that for undead, I believe.
Draz74
2011-04-15, 01:33 PM
4e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58) has a Druid Build for this. I know that's not what you're asking for, but ... maybe it's what you heard about?

(Huh. A build concept that's actually a lot easier to create in 4e than in 3e. Don't see that every day. :smallcool:)
Tyger
2011-04-15, 01:37 PM
Yeah, Libris Mortis has the "Swarm Shifter" template, which sounds like exactly what you are looking for. Its LA - and only applies to corporeal undead with an intelligence score though, so that may or may not be a problem for you.
TroubleBrewing
2011-04-15, 01:41 PM
Libris Mortis has something like that for undead, I believe.

The best part about that template is that it's +0 LA. There's literally no reason not to take it if you're Undead and Evil.

If you're planning on using it for an NPC villain, it does add +2 CR.
HalfDragonCube
2011-04-15, 01:54 PM
The best part about that template is that it's +0 LA. There's literally no reason not to take it if you're Undead and Evil.

If you're planning on using it for an NPC villain, it does add +2 CR.

Are there any specifically good undead?
Moriato
2011-04-15, 01:59 PM
Are there any specifically good undead?

Well I think there's a template in the BoED for that. Risen, I think? And while there's not that many others that are specifically good there's plenty that are non-evil or not necessarily evil. Archliches, Baelnorn, and anything with the necropolitan template come to mind.
Kol Korran
2011-04-15, 02:15 PM
just read Libris Mortis' swarm shifter template. yep, that is what i was looking for. drew some inspiration fro it, though i'm going to do something totally different.
evil undead or not evil undead, what do i care- i'm the DM. :smallbiggrin:
thanks people!
Tyger
2011-04-15, 02:24 PM
The best part about that template is that it's +0 LA. There's literally no reason not to take it if you're Undead and Evil.

If you're planning on using it for an NPC villain, it does add +2 CR.

No no no no no no....

Its not LA 0, its LA -. That means not available to PCs. That would easily be an LA +3 template in my game, and even then I doubt I'd allow it. Its a free get out of jail card for almost any undead.
TroubleBrewing
2011-04-15, 02:28 PM
Oh yeah, look at that. It's been a few months since I've even cracked open Libris Mortis. Huh.
Cog
2011-04-15, 02:31 PM
Yeah, if you ever find yourself writing that something's CR adjustment is higher than its ECL adjustment, that's a good time to look at your source again. I'm curious, though - is there an example of that anywhere in 3.5?
Lateral
2011-04-15, 02:41 PM
I think Half-Minotaur does, but I'm not sure.
Cog
2011-04-15, 02:46 PM
I think Half-Minotaur does, but I'm not sure.
Nope. CR +0 if no size change, +1 if size change; LA is a flat +1.
sreservoir
2011-04-15, 03:39 PM
unseelie fey, but that's... kind of a weird template.
TroubleBrewing
2011-04-15, 03:40 PM
Yeah, if you ever find yourself writing that something's CR adjustment is higher than its ECL adjustment, that's a good time to look at your source again.

That's actually a really excellent rule of thumb. I hadn't thought of it in those terms before.


I'm curious, though - is there an example of that anywhere in 3.5?

Incarnate Construct seems the most likely culprit, given its negative level adjustment. I'm AFB right now, so I can't say for certain.
Cog
2011-04-15, 03:53 PM
Challenge Rating: Base creature's CR divided by 2.
So, within certain ranges or CR and LA, yup.

Unseelie Fey doesn't make any comments on LA/CR. It gives them for the sample creature only, where the CR does tick up by half a point.
Darrin
2011-04-15, 05:05 PM
hello again forum. for purposes of building a villain, i'm looking for any template or mechanic that enables a creature to transform into a swarm. i'm sure i've heard that something like that existed, i just don't know where. can you point me out?


Two that I know of:

Dark Discorporation, a Dark invocation for Warlock 16+.

There's also a soulmeld called Brood Keeper's Heart in Dragon #350. If you bind it to your heart chakra (Incarnate 16, Totemist 17, or Ironsoul Forgemaster 10), you gain the swarm subtype.
IthroZada
2011-04-15, 06:37 PM
Isn't Murder of Crows a valid choice (by RAW if not RAI) for Lycanthropy?
Draz74
2011-04-15, 06:47 PM
Isn't Murder of Crows a valid choice (by RAW if not RAI) for Lycanthropy?

If it is, you win an internet.
sreservoir
2011-04-15, 08:18 PM
Isn't Murder of Crows a valid choice (by RAW if not RAI) for Lycanthropy?

apparently, but keep in mind it's tiny. 4 hd, though.
Moriato
2011-04-16, 01:40 PM
Isn't Murder of Crows a valid choice (by RAW if not RAI) for Lycanthropy?

Ehh, I doubt it. What is it's type? I couldn't find stats for a murder of crows, but its type is probably swarm and not animal, which would make it no good for the base animal of a lycanthrope.
Draz74
2011-04-16, 01:47 PM
Ehh, I doubt it. What is it's type? I couldn't find stats for a murder of crows, but its type is probably swarm and not animal, which would make it no good for the base animal of a lycanthrope.

Swarm is a subtype, not a type.
Moriato
2011-04-16, 02:24 PM
Swarm is a subtype, not a type.

Well then I guess you could. Of course being tiny means it's only good for small or smaller creatures


This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature).

Of course the wererat contradicts that, since it's medium and rats are tiny, technically the wererat shouldn't exist. I'm just gonna say that the rules for creating lycanthropes are screwed up and leave it at that.
Cog
2011-04-16, 02:27 PM
Wererats are based on dire rats.
IthroZada
2011-04-16, 02:30 PM
Murder of Crows is Tome of Magic. And the Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398.0) mentions it.
Moriato
2011-04-16, 02:35 PM
Murder of Crows is Tome of Magic. And the Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398.0) mentions it.

It would be awfully cool, and it works flavor-wise. Turning into a swarm of bats or birds is classic horror fare, especially for a vampire or wizard of some sort. I may have to try it out some time.

You know... cats are tiny so you could make cats into a swarm, too. Somehow turning into a swarm of cats just doesn't seem like it would strike fear into the hearts of adventurers. Commoners, maybe. A cat swarm could probably decimate an entire village.