Song of the White Raven and Other Bard Questions

[Elric VIII]

I would like to hear some people's thoughts on the merits of this feat. I have heard it called a trap because swift action activation means that you cannot use inspirational boost. However, the wording of the feat leads me to believe that it may not be as bad as it is billed.

The first thing I would like to address is the exact use of the feat, read with 3.5 keywords/syntax:

It says that "...you can activate your bardic music ability to inspire courage as a swift action." Does this mean I have the choice to activate it as a swift action? Or does it actually mean: "Activating your bardic music ability to inspire courage is a swift action."

Assuming that it grants you the ability to activate one music as a swift action and another as a standard, it seems like a very potent feat when combined with Dragonfire Inspiration.

Next, I would like to cover stacking:

How do classes that stack with one class's levels interact with each other. For example, how would I calculate the bardic music of a Paladin 7/Warrior Skald 1 with Initiate of Milil?

Warrior Skald grants Bardic Music and counts as Bard levels, Initiate of Milil lets Bard and Paladin levels stack. Would Warrior Skeld levels stack with Paladin levels in this situation?

Or, would I need a level of Bard in there to act as a link between the two for stacking?

Last, I have a question on people's experiences with playing a Bard:

Assuming that you are focusing mostly on Inspire Courage, how many Bardic Music uses are really necessary?

If I have a character that will want to use DFI and normal IC in a fight, which of the following is more useful?

- Warchanter 5, this lets you keep two song going at once. It will potentially let you sing for multiple encounters over the course of one dungeon, using only 2 Bardic Music uses.

- Lingering Song, this lets your Music last (most of the time) for the entire fight if you only concentrate for one round. This way you will spend 2 uses of Music in the inital fight and one use (alternating which music is sustained) for east subsequent fight that happens more than a minute later.

Both strategies will cost you a feat, and the lost casting is not an issue to consider here. What are people's thoughts on this?

[Elric VIII]

One more thing, the Seeker of the Song can use Combine Song to activate two songs at once. The War Chanter does not mention this, is the SotS ability an update of the ability or is the War Chanter's worse?

[Veyr]

Usually the 5 rounds of effect overlap you get is enough; you don't usually need to maintain two songs at once. If I felt I needed more, I'd take Lingering Song and be done with it, rather than spend class levels. Though War Chanter and Seeker of the Song may have other goodies that make it worthwhile; I haven't looked at either PrC in a while.

As for your Paladin/Warrior Skald, I don't think any Bard levels are necessary there; even if by RAW you would (I'd need the actual text of both feat and class to say), I'd be shocked if your DM enforced that (or, if he does enforce it, I imagine there's a good chance he would regardless of RAW, if he has some idea that you must have Bard levels to have Bardic Music or something).'

Finally: who's been complaining about Song of the White Raven? It's pretty much awesome; I've never heard anyone deny that. By RAW, yes, you may still activate songs as a Standard Action with Song of the White Raven, if you want (such as in order to use Inspirational Boost).

[Elric VIII]

Awsome, thanks. Everything you said is what I wanted to hear, so I will choose to believe any contradictory opinions are wrong.:smalltongue:

[only1doug]

I have heard it called a trap because swift action activation means that you cannot use inspirational boost.

Sorry, I'm having a comprehension problem, why would being able to activate Inspire courage as a swift action prevent inspirational boost from working?

[Zaq]

Sorry, I'm having a comprehension problem, why would being able to activate Inspire courage as a swift action prevent inspirational boost from working?

Inspirational Boost is also a swift action, and you only get one of those every round. This isn't 4e; you can't downgrade move actions to swift actions. You get your one swift action every turn and you like it. (RKVs, go away and be awesome somewhere else.)

[only1doug]

Inspirational Boost is also a swift action, and you only get one of those every round. This isn't 4e; you can't downgrade move actions to swift actions. You get your one swift action every turn and you like it. (RKVs, go away and be awesome somewhere else.)

heh, you just made my fiancee a very happy bard indeed...

She never reads descriptions and I'd missed that, Read it as start bardic music at the beginning of the next round so she'd been losing a rounds worth of actions (and the party losing a rounds worth of bard song) for the benefit of Boost.

(She may still kill me though).

[Elric VIII]

Inspirational Boost is also a swift action, and you only get one of those every round. This isn't 4e; you can't downgrade move actions to swift actions. You get your one swift action every turn and you like it. (RKVs, go away and be awesome somewhere else.)

This was basically it, but I figure +X attack and damage & +Xd6 fire damage is better than +X+1 attack and damage or +X+1d6.

I just played a session today with a melee Bard I made for a friend and at level 15 he was adding +12 IC and +12d6 DFI in one turn. It was good.

[Amnestic]

I just played a session today with a melee Bard I made for a friend and at level 15 he was adding +12 IC and +12d6 DFI in one turn. It was good.

+2 Levels, +1 Vest of Legends, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Badge of Valour, +1 Inspirational Boost, x2 Words of Creation? A Masterwork Mandolin (ComAdv) might be a good addition to the list. It'd give you +13 Hit, +11 damage and +13d6 DFI.

[Elric VIII]

+2 Levels, +1 Vest of Legends, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Badge of Valour, +1 Inspirational Boost, x2 Words of Creation? A Masterwork Mandolin (ComAdv) might be a good addition to the list. It'd give you +13 Hit, +11 damage and +13d6 DFI.

He wasn't using Inspirational Boost, he had a Masterwork Natural Horn which adds +1 attack and damage and -2 save vs fear. He was also using the horn in one hand with a Crystal Echoblade/Snowflake Wardance in the other. Other than that, you got it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warchanter's real gemstone is the capstone, Song of Legion. Everyone who is affected by the song has an effective BAB equal to the HIGHEST BAB of anyone affected by the song.

So, you have Bard4/Warblade6/Warchanter 10. Your BAB is 19. Unless someone being affected has a BAB of 20, that means the highest BAB is probably going to be yours. Which means that everyone being affected by the song now has a BAB of +19, including iterative attacks.

Now twist THAT with DFI and IC and see what happens... it turns disposable minions into cruise missiles.

[Firechanter]

(RKVs, go away and be awesome somewhere else.)

Eh. Took me a minute to figure out you are referring to Ruby Knight Vindicators. Until then, I was thinking wtf, what does he want with Relativistic Kill Vehicles in a D&D forum? XD

That said, this is what I hate about D&D: no matter what any melee gets, a caster immediately gets the same thing, only better.

edit:
Where do I find the Warchanter? It's not in the WotC consolidated lists.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Firechanter]

Ah thanks. Silly me, I didn't think to do a partial search, so "Warchanter" returned null, where "War Chanter" would have hit it.

[Optimator]

My DM houseruled that my Song of the White Raven-using Bard could trade down his move action to use another swift action. That's a pretty sick deal if you can get it.

Your reading of the syntax is correct. It clearly says can.

[Firechanter]

Rule of thumb: a feat is not supposed to make a character weaker. As simple as that.

[Cog]

Just because the swift-action activation is a flub doesn't mean the stacking of levels is now magically a detriment.

[Keld Denar]

And if you aren't using Inspirational Boost (although, why wouldn't you?), then activating it as a swift action is a boon, as you could do that AND cast Haste in the same round, assuming you had Haste...

[Cog]

And if you aren't using Inspirational Boost (although, why wouldn't you?)
If you're not using actual Bard levels to get Inspire Courage, you might not have it. Prestige Bard gives access with special DM permission only, while Heartfire Fanner doesn't give it at all. Both give accelerated progression in different ways, so if you combine either with a stacking effect (like Song of the White Raven!) you can make up for that missing +1 relatively easily, and not even have to spend actions to do it.

[Elric VIII]

If you're not using actual Bard levels to get Inspire Courage, you might not have it. Prestige Bard gives access with special DM permission only, while Heartfire Fanner doesn't give it at all. Both give accelerated progression in different ways, so if you combine either with a stacking effect (like Song of the White Raven!) you can make up for that missing +1 relatively easily, and not even have to spend actions to do it.

The build was something like Bard 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/War Chanter 5/Warblade 5. Initiate of Milil to stack Paladin levels and Travel Devotion with Turn Undead on a high Cha character is great; Divine Grace synnergy was just an extra bonus. This worked especially well with Slippers of Battledancing.

One thing I do notice, however, is that Inspirational Boost applies to all bardic music effects that you start, rather than just the next one, so that is pretty powerful.



Now, here's another question about SotWR and action types. The Seeker of the Song allows you to start two musics at the same time. The wording is "The seeker chooses two music abilities and activates both using the same
standard action." Does SotWR's ability that makes bardic music activation a swift action also alter this ability accordingly or do I still have to use a standard action?

[Cog]

One thing I do notice, however, is that Inspirational Boost applies to all bardic music effects that you start, rather than just the next one, so that is pretty powerful.
It does specify, "the morale bonus granted by your inspire courage bardic music," though, and has a duration of 1 round, not instantaneous.

Now, here's another question about SotWR and action types. The Seeker of the Song allows you to start two musics at the same time. The wording is "The seeker chooses two music abilities and activates both using the same
standard action." Does SotWR's ability that makes bardic music activation a swift action also alter this ability accordingly or do I still have to use a standard action?
Nope. Alas, Combine Songs is not listed as a Bardic Music ability itself, so it isn't affected by SotWR. SotWR only applies to Inspire Courage anyway, not to all Bardic Music.

[Elric VIII]

It does specify, "the morale bonus granted by your inspire courage bardic music," though, and has a duration of 1 round, not instantaneous.

Well, what I was getting at was that with Seeker of the Song's ability to activate two musics at once, you should be able to affect DFI and IC with only one casting of Inspirational Boost. Right?


Nope. Alas, Combine Songs is not listed as a Bardic Music ability itself, so it isn't affected by SotWR. SotWR only applies to Inspire Courage anyway, not to all Bardic Music.

Sad, but expected. Thank you.

[Cog]

Well, what I was getting at was that with Seeker of the Song's ability to activate two musics at once, you should be able to affect DFI and IC with only one casting of Inspirational Boost. Right?
Dragonfire Inspiration isn't a morale bonus. If you somehow had two kinds of IC-based morale bonuses, though, that would work. I'm not sure if there's any situation where that would come up.

[Keld Denar]

DFI isn't a moral bonus (since its not a bonus at all), but since its based on IC, it is [Mind Affecting], which can be important at the highest levels when Mind Blank any similar effects become prelevant.

[Cog]

Dang, you're right. I only thought it was mind-affecting because it was a morale bonus, but they do state that separately.

[Coidzor]

...So could the same bard put out both IC and DFI at the same time if it could put up two songs at once or does DFI completely replace IC as an option?

I always thought a bard lost the ability to use regular IC if it could DFI.

[Cog]

DFI is phrased as a "can", not a "do". Both are available.

[Nightraiderx]

Warchanter's real gemstone is the capstone, Song of Legion. Everyone who is affected by the song has an effective BAB equal to the HIGHEST BAB of anyone affected by the song.

So, you have Bard4/Warblade6/Warchanter 10. Your BAB is 19. Unless someone being affected has a BAB of 20, that means the highest BAB is probably going to be yours. Which means that everyone being affected by the song now has a BAB of +19, including iterative attacks.

Now twist THAT with DFI and IC and see what happens... it turns disposable minions into cruise missiles.

You also forget that there's a song in the Warchanter's list that makes them able to take power attack off their AC. Now we have turned cruise missiles into mini nukes.

[kulosle]

So here is why SotWR isn't always just a bonus. Bards have lots of damage boosts, like IC and DFI, the best way to make use of this is to have lots of attacks, usually through TWF, natural attacks, or archery. SotWR doesn't let you use any of those options. So you give up more attacks, and by extension more damage, for stances/maneuvers and swift action IC activation. It's a fair trade but people don't always want to go down that path.

[Gwendol]

...So could the same bard put out both IC and DFI at the same time if it could put up two songs at once or does DFI completely replace IC as an option?

I always thought a bard lost the ability to use regular IC if it could DFI.

Not only is having both up an option, it's recommended. If you only have time for one song I recommend sticking with regular IC.

[Big Fau]

The only downside to SotWR is if you can't get the DM to allow Jade Phoenix Mage levels to count as Warblade/Crusader levels. Then you lose out on spells if you want more than a handful of maneuvers.