Please rate my "monk" build

[Kaeso]

Hey there Playground,

As you may or may not remember I posted a thread last mon(k)day where I asked what would be a good way to improve a monk. After some thinking and considering the advice in the thread I've thought up a good monk build. Why is it good you ask? Simple: It has no monk levels :smallamused:.

This build assumes the human race:
Level 1: Fighter [Feats: Improved unarmed strike, Power attack, Great fortitude]*
Level 2: Either another level of Fighter (for another bonus feat) or Barbarian (so you can get trap sense (or an ACF) at level 4)
Level 3-4: Barbarian [Feat: Extra rage]
Level 5-7: Fist of the Forest [Feat: Superior Unarmed Strike, unless you used your lvl 2 fighter feat for that]
Level 8-20: Whatever you feel like.
*Prequisites for Fist of the Forest

This build beats a monk in:
-BAB
-Damage
-Flurry (If we assume it's a spirit lion totem barbarian, it can full attack during a charge)
-MAD: You just need STR, CON, eventually DEX and you're done.
-Charging. Just take the spirit lion totem and some nice feats like flying kick, roundabout kick and storm trooper. Your charging damage will be off the charts!

This is inferior to a monk in:
-Slow fall (oh boo hoo, buy a ring of feather fall)
-Feats (You get no bonus feats:smallfrown:)
-Stunning fist (though you could get that with a feat, but with significantly less uses per day)
-Fast movement (But without any armor and +10 ft. to your land speed you're most likely still the fastest member of your party).

This build can even be used in E6. You won't get that last level of Fist of the Forest in that case, but you still get the main goodies like 1d8 unarmed damage (equivalent of a level 6 monk) and CON to AC. Slap a monk's belt on it for Wis to AC and an even more unarmed damage and watch the monk cry at his incompetence.

What do you guys think of my build, is it worth it? Personally I think this is a good monk alternative if ToB isn't allowed.

[MeeposFire]

Just so you know you don't have to ask your DM about gauntlets. They can be enchanted normally as a weapon, they deal whatever your unarmed damage, and they should cause you no problems (I don't think fist of the forest has problems with weapons but I need to check).

There are two reasons monks don't use gauntlets

1) You are not proficient with them and thus would take a -4

2) If you use them you cannot flurry since that can only use monk weapons

So your non monk build can use gauntlets no problem (assuming fist of the forest does not have a problem). For instance I always advise unarmed swordsage guys to use gauntlets unless they can get battlefists.

[Metahuman1]

Um, hate too have to say this Meeposfire, but every DM I've tried the gantlets argument on for the damage, after I took proficiency and argued my way into being able to flurry with them, has said they deal exactly the damage listed on the PHB entry + enchantments too them for things such as Making them Magic, Adimatin, or adding property's like Bane or one of the element Bursts.

So yes, you will need DM clearance.

Also, I would advise taking two flaws that will have minimal impact, probably Shaky and something else, and using that too get a pair of Bonus Feats. Tireless form, if memory serves, form Players guide to Fearun, is good as it get's you a get out of jail free card too the draw backs of rage once the rage has ended. If the Dm Rules powerful build will cause your unarmed attacks/gantlet attacks (Assuming approval.) to deal damage as if you are one size category bigger, Joutonbroad form Races of Fearun is also a very worth while investment. (Every Dm I've ever had has ruled such on powerful build, but I could see some being funny about it.)

A couple of level's of Tattooed monk might be good, since I remember a Tattoo that let's you haste yourself (Haste is always a good Buff at any level, and being able too do it yourself will be appreciated by party members, and by you if there uncooperative party members.), A couple that grant circumstantial fast healing (Handy for between combats.), and one that let's you not need to sleep, eat, or drink, handy for surviving harsh conditions and for being harder to get the drop on, particularly if you distribute skills too things like Spot and Listen and feats too things like Improved Initiative.

And a Dip for Cleric of a level might be good as you could grab some of the useful lvl one spells, particularly strenght domain's enlarge person spell. The duration will be shorter, but most combats should still be over buy the time you get that far. Wizard or Sorcerer might also work if you wanted to just have at least a 12 in Cha or Int instead of Wis, and it would give you the option too pick up Shocking Grasp or Chill touch in place of Inflict light Wounds while still scoring Enlarge person.

[Rei_Jin]

If you want to have something that destroys things with its fists, a good option is to go...

Barbarian/Fist of the Forest/Frostrager/Swordsage

Grab Superior Unarmed Strike, and with the Flames Blessing stance, you are now immune to Fire and Cold, along with having a massive AC and awesome potential for damage.

I used it once for a playtest, the DM got very, very frustrated by it.

[Flickerdart]

Ah, Punchbarian? You are going to want a Powerful Build race, and Improved Natural Attack, and Whirling Frenzy. If you want a grapple-Monk instead, then Spirit Bear is better than Spirit Lion because it gives you Improved Grab. Use the Wolf Totem too to get Improved Trip without prerequisites, earlier than the Monk would. Goliath Barbarians become Large when they rage, which helps the grappling and the tripping, if you swing that way. And don't forget Snap Kick. Using Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter is better if two levels is all you want, since you only lose one BAB in exchange for some sweet powers.

[Kaeso]

Ah, nice to see so much response :smallredface:.
What I'd like to know is what you think is better: 2 levels of fighter and two levels of barb, or a 1-level fighter dip and three levels of barb?


Ah, Punchbarian? You are going to want a Powerful Build race, and Improved Natural Attack, and Whirling Frenzy.

1) Why a powerful race? Wouldn't a human be better due to the bonus feat?
2) What race would you suggest?
3) Why do you consider Whirling Frenzy to be better than Rage?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

1) Presumably powerful build gets you bigger fists.
2) Goliath would do it. Probably a slightly better one out there.
3) Extra attack at your full bonus. Unless you have a swiftblade in the party, or some other extra attack buffer that doesn't stack with your frenzy, the extra attack is more important than +2 to fortitude saves and 2 quasi-hp per level. Also, dex is nice sometimes.

[MeeposFire]

Um, hate too have to say this Meeposfire, but every DM I've tried the gantlets argument on for the damage, after I took proficiency and argued my way into being able to flurry with them, has said they deal exactly the damage listed on the PHB entry + enchantments too them for things such as Making them Magic, Adimatin, or adding property's like Bane or one of the element Bursts.

So yes, you will need DM clearance.

Also, I would advise taking two flaws that will have minimal impact, probably Shaky and something else, and using that too get a pair of Bonus Feats. Tireless form, if memory serves, form Players guide to Fearun, is good as it get's you a get out of jail free card too the draw backs of rage once the rage has ended. If the Dm Rules powerful build will cause your unarmed attacks/gantlet attacks (Assuming approval.) to deal damage as if you are one size category bigger, Joutonbroad form Races of Fearun is also a very worth while investment. (Every Dm I've ever had has ruled such on powerful build, but I could see some being funny about it.)

A couple of level's of Tattooed monk might be good, since I remember a Tattoo that let's you haste yourself (Haste is always a good Buff at any level, and being able too do it yourself will be appreciated by party members, and by you if there uncooperative party members.), A couple that grant circumstantial fast healing (Handy for between combats.), and one that let's you not need to sleep, eat, or drink, handy for surviving harsh conditions and for being harder to get the drop on, particularly if you distribute skills too things like Spot and Listen and feats too things like Improved Initiative.

And a Dip for Cleric of a level might be good as you could grab some of the useful lvl one spells, particularly strenght domain's enlarge person spell. The duration will be shorter, but most combats should still be over buy the time you get that far. Wizard or Sorcerer might also work if you wanted to just have at least a 12 in Cha or Int instead of Wis, and it would give you the option too pick up Shocking Grasp or Chill touch in place of Inflict light Wounds while still scoring Enlarge person.

Well technically you need your DM to give permission to use the monk class if he is stopping you from standard core stuff but that is neither here nor there.

I direct you to page 21 of the 3.5 FAQ. It talks about this very issue and it says right there that yes you do get your unarmed damage with a standard gauntlet (it is nice and red so it is very easy to find). So yes gauntlets are legal they just don't work with flurry.

[Kaeso]

@Meeposfire: Wow, that's good to know! That actually makes unarmed builds worth the trouble!

EDIT: Wait, page 27 of the FAQ states:
"A monk wearing gauntlets is using a weapon. A monk cannot use any of
her special unarmed attack abilities (unarmed damage, stunning attack, and so on) when using a weapon.


1) Presumably powerful build gets you bigger fists.
2) Goliath would do it. Probably a slightly better one out there.
3) Extra attack at your full bonus. Unless you have a swiftblade in the party, or some other extra attack buffer that doesn't stack with your frenzy, the extra attack is more important than +2 to fortitude saves and 2 quasi-hp per level. Also, dex is nice sometimes.

3) But the +4 Con combined with fist of the forest means that you have 2 extra points of AC as well, and your Frenzy lasts longer if you decided to become a Frenzied berserker.

[MeeposFire]

@Meeposfire: Wow, that's good to know! That actually makes unarmed builds worth the trouble!

EDIT: Wait, page 27 of the FAQ states:
"A monk wearing gauntlets is using a weapon. A monk cannot use any of
her special unarmed attack abilities (unarmed damage, stunning attack, and so on) when using a weapon.



3) But the +4 Con combined with fist of the forest means that you have 2 extra points of AC as well, and your Frenzy lasts longer if you decided to become a Frenzied berserker.

Are we looking at the same FAQ as my page 27 is talking about warlocks and I don't see what you posted. In case it matters I am using the 3.5 MainFAQ 9which is the latest one as far as I know).

[Lhurgyof]

Just so you know you don't have to ask your DM about gauntlets. They can be enchanted normally as a weapon, they deal whatever your unarmed damage, and they should cause you no problems (I don't think fist of the forest has problems with weapons but I need to check).

There are two reasons monks don't use gauntlets

1) You are not proficient with them and thus would take a -4

2) If you use them you cannot flurry since that can only use monk weapons

So your non monk build can use gauntlets no problem (assuming fist of the forest does not have a problem). For instance I always advise unarmed swordsage guys to use gauntlets unless they can get battlefists.

... Or you could just buy a necklace of natural attacks and don't have to use a 1d4 gauntlet.

[Jack Zander]

3) But the +4 Con combined with fist of the forest means that you have 2 extra points of AC as well, and your Frenzy lasts longer if you decided to become a Frenzied berserker.

The AC bonus is trivial when you are getting an extra attack at your highest bonus. You'll probably kill whatever you encounter.

[MeeposFire]

... Or you could just buy a necklace of natural attacks and don't have to use a 1d4 gauntlet.

Well those are nice if you have access to it, you have nothing you want in your neck slot, and if you choose different enhancements they would stack with the gauntlets.

Kaeso I figured out the problem. You are using the 3rd edition main FAQ. I am using the 3.5 FAQ. What you quoted no longer exists (as far as I can tell and I read the full monk and equipment sections) and on page 21 it says

Question- "Can a monk use a +5 gauntlet in an unarmed attack, gaining all her class benefits as well as the +5 bonus on attack and damage rolls from the gauntlet?

Answer- Gauntlets are indeed a weapon. if a monk uses any weapon not listed as a special monk weapon, she does not gain her better attack rate. She would, however, gain the increased damage to unarmed attacks."

So as you can see it is very clear that you lose the class feature flurry but you keep your better damage.

[Kaeso]

Are we looking at the same FAQ as my page 27 is talking about warlocks and I don't see what you posted. In case it matters I am using the 3.5 MainFAQ 9which is the latest one as far as I know).

Oh wait, I think I was using the 3.0 FAQ *facepalm*
Yes, I see it now, in bright red letters!

EDIT: Swordsage'd :smallsigh:

[Thespianus]

To the OP:Of what use is the Superior Unarmed Strike-feat in the original build? I'm new to Unarmed optimization, but it seems to me that there's no stacking between SUS-Feat and the Fist of the Forest damage increase?

SUS gives you a specific damage die for each level, and the Fist of the Forest does the same. So won't the SUS-feat just be completely overwritten by the Fist of the Forest damage value?

[Kaeso]

To the OP:Of what use is the Superior Unarmed Strike-feat in the original build? I'm new to Unarmed optimization, but it seems to me that there's no stacking between SUS-Feat and the Fist of the Forest damage increase?

SUS gives you a specific damage die for each level, and the Fist of the Forest does the same. So won't the SUS-feat just be completely overwritten by the Fist of the Forest damage value?

I assume that the Fist of the Forest d10 damage die counts as a monk die, and SUS allows you to deal damage as a monk of 4 levels higher, thus 2d6 damage.

[Greenish]

This is inferior to a monk in:
-Overcoming damage reduction (Your fists don't count as magicFotF gets magic fists.

1) Presumably powerful build gets you bigger fists.It doesn't. Mountain Rage does, though.

[Kaeso]

FotF gets magic fists.


Thanks, let me correct that.


It doesn't. Mountain Rage does, though.

Where can you find mountain rage?

[Greenish]

Where can you find mountain rage?Races of Stone. It's the Goliath ACF Flickerdart already mentioned, which turns you large when raging.

[Thespianus]

I assume that the Fist of the Forest d10 damage die counts as a monk die, and SUS allows you to deal damage as a monk of 4 levels higher, thus 2d6 damage.

Seems like a non-RAW interpretation, but I suppose I would allow it as a DM. Anyone who wants to make an Unarmed Fighter should be given some leeway. ;)

SUS says "If you are a monk", and having monkish Unarmed damage doesn't make you a monk. ;)

However, if you want to hit things ALOT with your fists , you could create a build like this:

Barbarian City Brawler variant, Dragon 349, gains IUS and TWF(Unarmed Strike only) at level 1.

Add Whirling Frenzy ACF, and the Lion Spirit/Pounce ACF, and you can charge and punch someone in the face three times at level 1.

With a 2 fighter levels, pick up SUS at level 3, Power Attack and Great Fortitude, add a level of Barbarian, and go into Fist of the Forest, as in the OP. Grab Snap Kick, and at level 6, you'll have a 6/6/1 attack routine with Whirling Frenzy, 4/4/4/-1 with TWF and 2/2/2/2/-3 with Snap Kick. ;)

You don't have to be a monk to gain a Flurry of Misses. ;)

[Kaeso]

Seems like a non-RAW interpretation, but I suppose I would allow it as a DM. Anyone who wants to make an Unarmed Fighter should be given some leeway. ;)

SUS says "If you are a monk", and having monkish Unarmed damage doesn't make you a monk. ;)

However, if you want to hit things ALOT with your fists , you could create a build like this:

Barbarian City Brawler variant, Dragon 349, gains IUS and TWF(Unarmed Strike only) at level 1.

Add Whirling Frenzy ACF, and the Lion Spirit/Pounce ACF, and you can charge and punch someone in the face three times at level 1.

With a 2 fighter levels, pick up SUS at level 3, Power Attack and Great Fortitude, add a level of Barbarian, and go into Fist of the Forest, as in the OP. Grab Snap Kick, and at level 6, you'll have a 6/6/1 attack routine with Whirling Frenzy, 4/4/4/-1 with TWF and 2/2/2/2/-3 with Snap Kick. ;)

You don't have to be a monk to gain a Flurry of Misses. ;)

Except this flurry actually hits :smallamused:

How do unarmed strike and TWF interact by the way? Are both arms (or legs, or an arm and a leg or knee and hip or pelvic thrust and whatever) considered seperate weapons?

[Thespianus]

How do unarmed strike and TWF interact by the way? Are both arms (or legs, or an arm and a leg or knee and hip or pelvic thrust and whatever) considered seperate weapons?

My take on it is that you just get another attack, both attacks are at -2. I'm sure there's a number of arguments for the correct interpretation of RAW, but I read it that you get another attack, just as if you were dual-wielding daggers, or whatever.

It keeps things simple. That's also how I see TWF and Flurry work: You get another attack, all attacks are at an additional -2.

[Cog]

Unarmed Strike works just fine as the second weapon to anything else for TWF, even a two-handed weapon. You only have a single unarmed strike, though; your weapon is your whole body, and unless you're a Dvati you only have one, so technically you can't TWF with unarmed strikes only.

That's also how I see TWF and Flurry work: You get another attack, all attacks are at an additional -2.
By that logic, you could TWF with a single greatsword.

[Jack Zander]

Unarmed Strike works just fine as the second weapon to anything else for TWF, even a two-handed weapon. You only have a single unarmed strike, though; your weapon is your whole body, and unless you're a Dvati you only have one, so technically you can't TWF with unarmed strikes only.

By that logic, you could TWF with a single greatsword.

Except the FAQ and everything else say that when you are unarmed, you can in fact TWF. It only makes sense. Why can't you strike with both your fists, or your feet, or your head and then your knee, or whatever?

[Kaeso]

I'm kind of in dubio about what to do on levels 8-20. What would be the best choice if we assume ToB is out: just continuing with more barbarian levels, some prestige class or something else?

[Cog]

Except the FAQ and everything else say that when you are unarmed, you can in fact TWF. It only makes sense. Why can't you strike with both your fists, or your feet, or your head and then your knee, or whatever?
The FAQ don't supersede the existing rules. If there's a contradiction, it's the FAQ that's wrong.

Also, you can strike with your head and then your knee. Iterative attacks, snap kick, and flurry of blows can all represent that. If you want to include two fists under multiple attacks, though, why do you stop there? Why can't you attack with two fists, two knees, two feet, two elbows, a headbutt, a backhand, and a karate chop?

The RAW reason that you can't is because unarmed strike is a single weapon. It requires particular training, in 3.5's rules, to be able to make a series of unarmed attacks within a single 6-second round. There are many ways to get that training, however.

As for what "makes sense", if you feel it makes more sense to houserule that, I don't think it would be broken. I'd be tempted to allow the same myself if a player asked. What makes sense to an individual DM has nothing to do with determining what the RAW actually are, though.

[The Glyphstone]

On the other hand, I don't think anything prevents you from wielding an actual weapon in one hand and TWFing with that alongside your unarmed strike...and if you use a Monk weapon like a kukri, you can still benefit from Flurrying.

[Thespianus]

I'm kind of in dubio about what to do on levels 8-20. What would be the best choice if we assume ToB is out: just continuing with more barbarian levels, some prestige class or something else?

If your DM allows it, grab the Barbarian variant (City Brawler, Dragon Mag 349) that give you the TWF chain "for free" at level 1, level 6 and level 11. ( you give up medium and heavy armor proficiency, and Martial weapons)

I'm sure there's some PrC that will benefit you better after Fist of the Forest, though, however I don't know of it.

[Jack Zander]

Why can't you attack with two fists, two knees, two feet, two elbows, a headbutt, a backhand, and a karate chop?

Because then you'd need multiweapon fighting. Although you can strike with a main hand strike, an offhand strike, and then whatever other body parts you choose as part of a flurry or iterative attacks.

I understand your reasoning behind your argument. Mechanically by a strict interpretation it makes the most sense. However, by a strict interpretation of the monk class they also aren't proficient with their own unarmed strikes. But seriously, if they can wield a monk weapon in 1 hand and the TWF + Flurry with that, why are you going to stop them from just TWF with their fists?

[Thespianus]

After checking the MIC, there's a Scorpion Kama, p201, that says "This +1 Kama deals damage equal to your unarmed strike(if greater than the damage for a kama)", which seems to solve the RAW-problem with TWF and Flurry. ;)

[Cog]

Because then you'd need multiweapon fighting. Although you can strike with a main hand strike, an offhand strike, and then whatever other body parts you choose as part of a flurry or iterative attacks.
...Do you seriously not see the problem with a first-level character having an infinite number of attacks? Keep in mind that TWF/MWF only reduce penalties, not give extra attacks. Also keep in mind that if an unarmed strike is multiple weapons, any first-level character qualifies for MWF. It doesn't matter what penalty you're taking on your attacks at that point, because the 1/20th of your infinite attacks that are autohits are still an infinite number of autohits, and so even the weakest commoner can automatically take out anything without DR.

I understand your reasoning behind your argument. Mechanically by a strict interpretation it makes the most sense. However, by a strict interpretation of the monk class they also aren't proficient with their own unarmed strikes.
They aren't. Which is a good reason to houserule it; even Curmudgeon has pointed out that this is one he houserules. There's a very big difference in effect between, "Monks are proficient in unarmed strikes," and "A character has a infinite number of natural attacks available," though, so just because one rule change is good doesn't make every other one automatically so.

But seriously, if they can wield a monk weapon in 1 hand and the TWF + Flurry with that, why are you going to stop them from just TWF with their fists?
If a fighter can hold a dagger in either hand and TWF with that, why would you stop them from just making two attacks with a single dagger? Because it's two weapon fighting. As for whether it should be that way, I've already answered that. However, there's only one person on these boards who I game with, and very many who I do not. The rules as they're written are what I have in common with everybody who's not at my gaming table, so that's what my posts are going to focus on.

If you want to houserule things, that's perfectly fine. There's just a difference between saying, "These are the rules," and, "This is a good houserule." The former was being implied before, which might have lead to problems if a poster here read that and brought such a character to a table that was aware of the actual rules. You can't count on everybody following your suggestions, after all.

[Lhurgyof]

I'm pretty sure the only reason TWF is iffy with a monk is that it says no attack is ever an offhand attack for a monk.

So, that being said, would not a normal person have an off-hand unarmed strike?

[Cog]

So, that being said, would not a normal person have an off-hand unarmed strike?
I don't think anybody's disagreed with that. It's in the TWF special attack rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting). The same thing says to consider unarmed strikes light for TWF purposes, so even Monks can use them as a second weapon just fine.

[Thespianus]

I'm pretty sure the only reason TWF is iffy with a monk is that it says no attack is ever an offhand attack for a monk.
Isn't that only to specify that a Monk adds his Str-bonus to the damage for all attacks, instead of 1/2 Str ?

"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes."


The Monk is very oddly written in general and a ton of confusion could have been avoided by rewriting it in an errata.

[MeeposFire]

1. Kukri is not a special monk weapon :smalltongue:

2. Unarmed strikes are natural weapons that simultaneously have a few aspects of manufactured weapons rolled in. Since they are natural weapons you are automatically proficient with them since you are always proficient with your own natural weapons. They don't spell it out but it fits all known rules and it prevents the silliness of the simple weapon table from being a problem.

3. Just because you can use any part of your body as an unarmed strike doe snot mean, even with the most liberal reading, that you can get extra attacks for all of them. For instance a character wielding two short swords, a boot blade, elbow knives, sleave weapons, and spiked armor does not get an extra attack for each weapon. Each attack you can choose any one of those weapons (just like an unarmed strike can choose fist, elbow, foot, or head) and if you want you can take penalties on all your attacks to make an additional with one of those weapons as per two weapon fighting (you will have to choose which is your main hand weapon).

4. If you are making your decision on whether you can make offhand unarmed attacks on the monk description saying there are no off hand attacks for a monk then realize that only applies to monks. It may be strange that the master of unarmed fighting is more limited but that phrase only applies to monks not unarmed attacking in general.

[Thespianus]

1. Kukri is not a special monk weapon :smalltongue:

However, Dragon 330 has a "Ghurka Monk" that get Club, Kukri and Short Sword as Special Monk Weapons.

A Flurrying Aptitude Kukri Lightning Maces build, yielding infinite attacks on criticals, could make the Monk usable ;)

[Jack Zander]

...Do you seriously not see the problem with a first-level character having an infinite number of attacks?

I'm very aware of the problem, I was just being facetious. But actually, now that I think about it, if you had twenty or so different manufactured weapons strapped to various body parts, I don't see why you wouldn't get an attack with each of them.

As for the main point: I know FAQ isn't RAW, but this answer pretty much explains how to make TWF work with flurry and still be balanced out as it was intended to be. Basically you take the penalties for TWF and then for the attacks that are considered off-hand attacks, you do still apply 1/2 str bonus.

The description of the flurry of blows ability says there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean, exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to flurry attacks?

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack, even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra attacks, or both. The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry, the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
lurry, +2 Strength).

An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks, each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage (+1). If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry (in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available for the flurry and vice versa.

Again, I know the FAQ is 100% correct, but I would never even consider ruling another way.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, ok, re suggesting.

If you have a Mental Stat that is 12 or higher, a caster that uses that as there base stat might be a good investment, particularly if they have Enlarge person and at least one damage dealing touch spell on there first lvl spell's list. Even if, again, it was just a one lvl dip.

A dip into scout if your gonna be doing a lot of "I Charge and Pounce and Punch a lot of times for several different attacks!", as moving 10ft would score you a d6 skirmish damage, and taking improved Skirmish would double that too 2d6, equal too your basic Fist of the Forest+SUS damage.


Depending on Alignment, Frenzied Breserker could help here as well maybe? (Not that familiar with this PRC, so you guys decided. )

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, ok, re suggesting.

If you have a Mental Stat that is 12 or higher, a caster that uses that as there base stat might be a good investment, particularly if they have Enlarge person and at least one damage dealing touch spell on there first lvl spell's list. Even if, again, it was just a one lvl dip.

A dip into scout if your gonna be doing a lot of "I Charge and Pounce and Punch a lot of times for several different attacks!", as moving 10ft would score you a d6 skirmish damage, and taking improved Skirmish would double that too 2d6, equal too your basic Fist of the Forest+SUS damage.


Depending on Alignment, Frenzied Breserker could help here as well maybe? (Not that familiar with this PRC, so you guys decided. )
Improved Skirmish doesn't work that way. At least not the pre-Epic feat.