Best Magic Schools to give up for Conjurer?

[Sims]

I have to be a Conjurer to get Abrupt Jaunt, but all the 9th level spells look sexy.

So what are the crappiest schools?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Keep in mind that all of this is based on an optimization standpoint:

Evocation is the One True Drop. Particularly with the Orb line, you already have all the blasting you want as a Conjurer.

From there, it varies, though Enchantment is generally what you want to give up, partly because at higher levels almost everything is immune to it. If you have your heart set on some sort of Enchantment spell, drop Illusion, Abjuration, or Necromancy. Illusion if you don't want to bother with, well, illusions, Abjuration if you're not planning on any of the tricks Abjuration gets (or the two excellent Abjuration-only PrCs), and Necromancy if your character's reaction to the school is "icky".

Transmutation and Conjuration are the gold schools, the ones that you never ever drop.

[Eldariel]

2 of Enchantment/Evocation/Necromancy, in approximately that order of preference. Dropping Abjuration is pretty meh since you lose access to Dispel Magics which makes you very...limited in terms of dealing with magic, not to mention many of the best wards in the game (Mind Blank, Anticipate Teleport, Battlemagic Perception, and all the usual resistances and numeric bonuses).

Evo loses you some good stuff but you can replicate most of it between Conjuration, Illusion & Transmutation. Enchantment loses you precious little of value beyond the first levels (where other schools have similar abilities anyways, especially Illusion) since the school is really vulnerable to high level protections and immunities anyways. And Necro has some good buffs, really good offense and Astral Projection but offense is replicable (in generally Less Immunity Prone-form, too), the buffs you can survive without and Astral Projection is only a huge loss if you were actually gonna use it, and can't just Planar Bind a Nightmare or w/e to do it for you.

[Eric Tolle]

And of course beyond the optimization aspect, think of what might fit your character's personality and background. For instance one character of mine dropped enchantment because she was a shy bookish type, and didn't like dealing with people. Another had a phobia of the undead, so avoided anything smacking of necromancy. I know it's a secondary concern, but roleplaying one's areas of weakness can be a lot of fun.

[Fox Box Socks]

Evocation is far and away the worst school. There's very little it can do that Transmutation/Conjuration can't do better, and the further you go outside of core the worse that problem gets. As has been said, the Orb line covers your bases on the damage-dealing front until Save-or-Suck spells get powerful enough to chew through the opposition with impunity.

Beyond that, it depends on the party make-up (drop Enchantment if you've got a Bard, drop Illusion if you've got a Beguiler, drop Necromancy if you have a Dread Necromancer). If you have none of those, the most popular choice is Necromancy for squick and roleplaying reasons, but a strong case can be made that Enchantment is strictly worse.

[hangedman1984]

evocation should definitely be the first choice to get rid of

[Sims]

evocation should definitely be the first choice to get rid of

Doesnt Evocation get Genesis at high level? Or is that Conjuration?

[Kylarra]

Doesnt Evocation get Genesis at high level? Or is that Conjuration?Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm). Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) is the nice evocation spell.

[Fox Box Socks]

Note the singular there. Evocation has exactly 1 trick that no other school can accomplish. And Contingency, while ridiculously useful, really isn't enough to salvage the school.

[Cruiser1]

Note the singular there. Evocation has exactly 1 trick that no other school can accomplish. And Contingency, while ridiculously useful, really isn't enough to salvage the school.Drop Evocation. However definitely keep Illusion. Evocation indeed has the very powerful Contingency spell, however Contingency can be simulated (if you don't mind waiting two more spell levels) with the Illusion spell Greater Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocationGreater.htm).

[Kylarra]

If you want to be technical, the Craft Contingent Spell feat from CArc, mimics Contingency in the form of item creation, so ... yeah.

[Malachei]

While I generally agree that Evocation is among the first choices to drop as a Conjurer, I'd drop Enchantment first, especially in a high-level game (and even more so if the problematic enchantment spells are disallowed.

If your DM does not allow Craft Contingent Spell (a wise decision), and you have access to all official books, and you have a discussion with your DM whether Greater Shadow Evocation works the way you want it to work (not wanting to start this discussion here, just stating that there are some who argue this way, and others rule the other way -- for instance, that it is 60% likely to work, or that you automatically make your Will save on your own shadow spells where applicable) -- then I'd seriously consider keeping evocation, because of...


Contingency
Defenestrating Sphere
Wall of Force
Forcecage (I know it is expensive, but still)
Invoke Magic (cast in an AMF)

(among others)

Perhaps your DM also disagrees with the further improvement of the Conjuration school from 3.0 to 3.5 and has also houseruled the Orb spells to be Evocation and SR:Yes (which had been the case in 3.0 and was perfectly fine), in which case I'd absolutely keep Evocation.

So after dropping Enchantment, depending on the character concept, my second drop would be one of Evocation, Illusion or Necromancy -- most likely Necromancy. I know it has some very good spells, but I like my characters to be of good alignment, most of the time, and I'm really tired of (empowered twin split-ray etc.)-enervation one-trick-ponies, and most DMs I know, including me, have banned shivering touch. I know there's some good spells left in the school, and Horrid Wilting is a very strong spell (note it is targeted), but still, I've never really missed Necromancy when I dropped it.

[Sims]

isnt there an epic feat that lets you get spells from prohibited schools? (isnt it called Spell Knowledge?)

[Eldariel]

isnt there an epic feat that lets you get spells from prohibited schools? (isnt it called Spell Knowledge?)

There's even a series of 3 non-epic feats in Lost Empires of Faerun that gets you a whole forbidden school back.

[Greenish]

There's even a series of 3 non-epic feats in Lost Empires of Faerun that gets you a whole forbidden school back.Ah, Faerûn, without you, where would casters get their delicious cheese? :smallcool:

[Aspenor]

Ah, Faerûn, without you, where would casters get their delicious cheese? :smallcool:

To be fair, those feats are less than optimal. 3 feats to get back a school? That's not cheesy, that's a waste of feats.

[faceroll]

To be fair, those feats are less than optimal. 3 feats to get back a school? That's not cheesy, that's a waste of feats.

Eh, 1000xp to get the spells from whatever school when I have some downtime is pretty pro.

[Eldariel]

Ah, Faerûn, without you, where would casters get their delicious cheese? :smallcool:

Seriously, what were the odds that Initiate of Mystra, Incantatrix, Spelldancer, original Persistent Spell (+4 version), Shadow Weave Magic, Halruaan Elder, Hathran, Red Wizard of Thay and all that all came from one source?

Seriously, the whole rest of D&D can merely match Faerun in numbers.

[Aspenor]

Eh, 1000xp to get the spells from whatever school when I have some downtime is pretty pro.

I assume you're talking about either Psychic Reformation or DCFS.

It's too bad that doesn't work unless you keep the feats. Banning a school prevents you from casting spells, so even if you learn them you still are unable to cast them.

[Taelas]

I assume you're talking about either Psychic Reformation or DCFS.

It's too bad that doesn't work unless you keep the feats. Banning a school prevents you from casting spells, so even if you learn them you still are unable to cast them.

You can't learn spells from prohibited schools, but you can still cast them if you know them. For instance, if you drop an additional school through prestige classes such as Red Wizard of Thay, you can still cast all the spells in the school that you learned before it became prohibited.

[AslanCross]

I'd always drop Enchantment first. The entire school is Mind-Affecting, and the only really good ones are the Power Words (which come in much later).

I'm too attached to Magic missile and Fireball to immediately ban Evocation.

[Firechanter]

Random thought on the side: Vaarsuvius is quite the gimp wizard, being an Elf and specializing in Evocation and banning Conjuration and, well, Necromancy. Good luck in your quest for ultimate arcane power, Mr(s) V.! :smallbiggrin:

[Aspenor]

You can't learn spells from prohibited schools, but you can still cast them if you know them. For instance, if you drop an additional school through prestige classes such as Red Wizard of Thay, you can still cast all the spells in the school that you learned before it became prohibited.

No, that's not how the rules work.


School Specialization

A school is one of eight groupings of spells, each defined by a common theme. If desired, a wizard may specialize in one school of magic (see below). Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools.

A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day. She also gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to learn the spells of her chosen school.

The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement.

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

The eight schools of arcane magic are abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation.

Spells that do not fall into any of these schools are called universal spells.
The rules state you cannot cast them, specifically. The Red Wizard learned spells mechanic is unique to the class and overrides this rule. There is nothing that says that you may not "learn" the spells, it just says that you cannot cast them. If I remember correctly, even the Incantrix cannot cast spells from their newly banned school. Only the Red Wizard may do so, unless I forget some entry in Incantrix.

[Taelas]

Yes, that is exactly how the rules work. A specialized wizard is different from a character which specializes later in his career.

You are quoting the wizard's description of specialization. Wizards cannot learn to cast spells that are part of a prohibited school because they have their own spell progression, and they begin play with those schools banned, effectively erasing them from their spell list.

That is not the case with the Red Wizard of Thay or the Incantatrix. Because they already have levels in arcane spellcasting classes and since they do not have their own unique spell progression, they may know spells of the schools they ban from before they do so. Since the Incantatrix does not state that you cannot cast the spells you already knew before prohibiting the school, you may still cast them.

You do not suddenly "unlearn" how to cast spells you have already learned.

[Zaq]

While I generally agree that Evocation is among the first choices to drop as a Conjurer, I'd drop Enchantment first, especially in a high-level game (and even more so if the problematic enchantment spells are disallowed.

If your DM does not allow Craft Contingent Spell (a wise decision), and you have access to all official books, and you have a discussion with your DM whether Greater Shadow Evocation works the way you want it to work (not wanting to start this discussion here, just stating that there are some who argue this way, and others rule the other way -- for instance, that it is 60% likely to work, or that you automatically make your Will save on your own shadow spells where applicable) -- then I'd seriously consider keeping evocation, because of...


Contingency
Defenestrating Sphere
Wall of Force
Forcecage (I know it is expensive, but still)
Invoke Magic (cast in an AMF)

(among others)

Perhaps your DM also disagrees with the further improvement of the Conjuration school from 3.0 to 3.5 and has also houseruled the Orb spells to be Evocation and SR:Yes (which had been the case in 3.0 and was perfectly fine), in which case I'd absolutely keep Evocation.

So after dropping Enchantment, depending on the character concept, my second drop would be one of Evocation, Illusion or Necromancy -- most likely Necromancy. I know it has some very good spells, but I like my characters to be of good alignment, most of the time, and I'm really tired of (empowered twin split-ray etc.)-enervation one-trick-ponies, and most DMs I know, including me, have banned shivering touch. I know there's some good spells left in the school, and Horrid Wilting is a very strong spell (note it is targeted), but still, I've never really missed Necromancy when I dropped it.

No one is saying that evocation is a bad school. Merely that it is the worst school. Even an evoker who bans conjuration and transmutation is still, fundamentally, a Wizard, and therefore capable of playing with the big boys, even if they'll never reach their full potential.

[Koury]

You do not suddenly "unlearn" how to cast spells you have already learned.

Simple RAW QnA thread seems to disagree. Answer here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10798772#post10798772).

EDIT: I see you contending it right now. For what its worth, I hope you're right. It'd make giving up Illusion a much less painful choice on my Focused Specialist Incantatrix.

[Aspenor]

Yes, that is exactly how the rules work. A specialized wizard is different from a character which specializes later in his career.
I don't see how this is relevant.


You are quoting the wizard's description of specialization. Wizards cannot learn to cast spells that are part of a prohibited school because they have their own spell progression, and they begin play with those schools banned, effectively erasing them from their spell list.
Okay.


That is not the case with the Red Wizard of Thay or the Incantatrix. Because they already have levels in arcane spellcasting classes and since they do not have their own unique spell progression, they may know spells of the schools they ban from before they do so. Since the Incantatrix does not state that you cannot cast the spells you already knew before prohibiting the school, you may still cast them.
Don't be silly. In order to be able to cast them, the Incantrix must have the same or similar text that the Red Wizard has. It does not, therefore, once you ban a school through Incantrix you can no longer cast any spells from that school, even if you could cast them before. That's how rules reading works, a mechanic is not overridden unless specifically overridden in another rule. Red Wizard specifically overrides the text in specialization, Incantrix does not. Thus, the rules for specialization still apply to the Incantrix and you cannot cast spells from the newly banned school.


You do not suddenly "unlearn" how to cast spells you have already learned.
"Unlearning" isn't the point. It has nothing to do with learning or learned spells, it has everything to do with being able to cast them.

[Taelas]

The original version of the Incantatrix from Magic of Faerûn specifically states that they can still cast spells they had previously learned.

I do not see why this would change.

[Koury]

Hmm, if an older version of the class had a line that was taken out, I honestly would think it was removed intentionally as opposed to being somehow forgotten.

[Taelas]

That is certainly a valid interpretation, but then the question becomes, why was it not removed from the Red Wizard of Thay also? It creates an inconsistency.

[Aspenor]

That is certainly a valid interpretation, but then the question becomes, why was it not removed from the Red Wizard of Thay also? It creates an inconsistency.

Because they didn't want to remove it from Red Wizard, but they wanted to remove it from Incantrix. Consistency is not important to RAW.

[Taelas]

Yes, it actually is.

[Koury]

I'd have to agree that itis more likely that they simply didn't want Incantatrix to retain old spells and did want Red Wizard to.

And while consistency is a good goal, RAW falls short often. This is no more inconsistent then Lesser and Greater versions of the same spell doing different types of damage, for instance.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Evocation is probably the easiest to give up. Between Transmutation and Conjuration, you got these bases covered. For everything else, there's Shadow Evocation, Greater.

If you ban Evocation, don't ban Illusion if you want access to Contingency.

That means either Enchantment or Necromancy.

Necromancy has a lot of mid-level power, but not a lot of end-game love. About the best spell here, barring shenanigans, is Enervation, which is a 4th level spell.

Enchantment has a lot of 'Will save or Lose' effects, but most of them come with the 'Mind-Affecting' tag as well. A single first level spell (Protection from Evil) completely negates about 90% of this college.

So if you're wanting to go Conjurer and later go into Incantatrix (depending on how your GM rules the extra banned school, if you get to keep what you already have, or if you loose it all), it behooves you to ban Evocation and Enchantment, then beg the GM to let you keep what you already have and ban Necromancy.

[Aspenor]

Yes, it actually is.

No, it isn't. All that matters to the RAW is the words on the page and the context in which they are given. Whether two similar mechanics from 3.0 were both ported over, or just one was, is totally irrelevant to the RAW.

It may matter to your group while playing a game, but it does not matter in the context that we are discussing: RAW. You may choose to house-rule that an Incantrix gets the ability to retain previously known spells as a Red Wizard, and it won't change much (both classes are so insanely broken already that this little bit doesn't matter).

The rules as written do not care whether they treat one class the same as another despite them having similar mechanics. Even if they are written with exactly the same words, but one class omits a sentence, this does not mean that the other class is allowed to utilize that sentence in another class' features.

[Koury]

The rules as written do not care whether they treat one class the same as another despite them having similar mechanics. Even if they are written with exactly the same words, but one class omits a sentence, this does not mean that the other class is allowed to utilize that sentence in another class' features.

By way of example: How many different types of Hide In Plain Sight are there? All with the same idea, and name, but all different.

[faceroll]

I assume you're talking about either Psychic Reformation or DCFS.

It's too bad that doesn't work unless you keep the feats. Banning a school prevents you from casting spells, so even if you learn them you still are unable to cast them.

Elaborate, please.

I'm saying if you really need a spell in a prohibited school, and you have the time, you pys reform or shuffle your feats, get the school, cast the spells, then shuffle them back.

[Aspenor]

Elaborate, please.

I'm saying if you really need a spell in a prohibited school, and you have the time, you pys reform or shuffle your feats, get the school, cast the spells, then shuffle them back.

That will work, but only in the short term. Of course, you probably could have just cast Planar Binding and had the spells available consistently and long term. PsyRef for this reason seems horribly inefficient and wasteful.

[faceroll]

That will work, but only in the short term. Of course, you probably could have just cast Planar Binding and had the spells available consistently and long term. PsyRef for this reason seems horribly inefficient and wasteful.

You've got it backwards. You use it to get longterm spells that you've banned, like contingency, simulacrum, mirage arcana, etc.

But as long as you're abusing the snot out of Calling spells, it really doesn't matter what your build is. Candles of Invocation are dirt cheap.

[Aquillion]

While I generally agree that Evocation is among the first choices to drop as a Conjurer, I'd drop Enchantment first, especially in a high-level game (and even more so if the problematic enchantment spells are disallowed.The thing is, Shadow Evocation lets you copy Evocation spells despite having discarded it. This -- more than its actual spell list -- is a big part of the reason why it's so readily dropped. Sure, it has a few real good spells, but the most important one, Contigency, can be mimicked with no real drawback using Greater Shadow Evocation. All the other stuff Evocation does, you can do just about as well using another school.

Enchantment and Necromancy, while they aren't high-power like Conjuration is, do have a lot more effects that you can't get anywhere else, and unlike Evocation there's no backdoor trick to get access to them. Always drop Evocation first, unless you've got a character-specific reason not to.

[faceroll]

Shadow Evocation doesn't satisfactorily mimic any of the useful force effects in evocation without using Shadow Adept cheese. Even then, an illusory wall of force has no effect on objects, so you can still shoot ballista through it, or lava, or whatever.

[Safety Sword]

Ah, Faerûn, without you, where would casters get their delicious cheese? :smallcool:

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0

[Koury]

Even then, an illusory wall of force has no effect on objects, so you can still shoot ballista through it, or lava, or whatever. Wall of Stone should cover those needs adequatly, I'd think.

[faceroll]

Wall of Stone should cover those needs adequatly, I'd think.

Stone isn't a force effect, so, no, it doesn't really cover force effects.

[Koury]

But it does cover objects, which is a concern you raised, just fine.

[faceroll]

But it does cover objects, which is a concern you raised, just fine.

Force effects are near indestructible, and breaking one requires using a standard (or swift) action. They're also invisible. They can also be conjured in any environment you wish. Wall of stone requires you to have rocks at both end points of the wall. Shadow spells cannot be used on outer planes unless you're wearing a collar of umbral metamorphosis and are using planar bubble.

[Koury]

Force effects are near indestructible, and breaking one requires using a standard (or swift) action. They're also invisible. They can also be conjured in any environment you wish. Wall of stone requires you to have rocks at both end points of the wall. Shadow spells cannot be used on outer planes unless you're wearing a collar of umbral metamorphosis and are using planar bubble.

Its not as if Wall of Force is without its own problems, not the least of which being the "If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails" line, which means in most situations there is some amount of room on all edges. That won't stop, say, lava for long.

And regarding the specific situations I was refering to (the lava and balista bolts), Wall of Stones stone requirement will probably not be an issue.

And back on topic, the force effects in Evocation don't, in my opinion, warrant keeping it over any other school besides Enchantment.

[Aspenor]

You've got it backwards. You use it to get longterm spells that you've banned, like contingency, simulacrum, mirage arcana, etc.

But as long as you're abusing the snot out of Calling spells, it really doesn't matter what your build is. Candles of Invocation are dirt cheap.

As long as you're abusing the snot out of Psychic Reformation, who cares if you abuse calling?

[faceroll]

As long as you're abusing the snot out of Psychic Reformation, who cares if you abuse calling?

Yes, because having a pet Phane is on the same playing field as changing your feats. lol. I'll just be hanging over here with Mr. Hecatoncheires. Have fun with them feats. :smallsmile:

[Aspenor]

Yes, because having a pet Phane is on the same playing field as changing your feats. lol. I'll just be hanging over here with Mr. Hecatoncheires. Have fun with them feats. :smallsmile:

I am pretty sure you were the one suggesting using PsyRef, not me. Cheese is cheese, and if you're advocating that one is superior to the other in some way, I must ask "who cares?" Neither should be used in an actual game in the first place.

By the way, Hecatoncheires are horribly weak. By the time you can call one, you have already wasted your time doing so.

[Elrihm]

Personally, I'm not a fan of enchantment or evocation, a feeling harked upon already. Wizards who throw fireballs, and win over allies mid battle are cool, but wizards who conjures a horde of demons to eat them, or turns into a dragon is AWESOME

[Eldariel]

I am pretty sure you were the one suggesting using PsyRef, not me. Cheese is cheese, and if you're advocating that one is superior to the other in some way, I must ask "who cares?" Neither should be used in an actual game in the first place.

On what planet is Psychic Reformation "cheese" ._. Out-of-combat way to remake choices in char creation for a cost; seems exceedingly fair to me.


By the way, Hecatoncheires are horribly weak. By the time you can call one, you have already wasted your time doing so.

Whuh? I'm pretty sure they're a great choice if you need a target that requires brute force destroyed. I mean, you can call one easily on level 20; need some big target destroyed and you haven't bothered with damage dealing and thus have trouble hurting 'em yourself?

Just summon a Heca, have it nuke them in the face and it generally does enough damage to get the job done as long as they aren't immune (which, of course, is a job for you to deal with).

[Kylarra]

On what planet is Psychic Reformation "cheese" ._. Out-of-combat way to remake choices in char creation for a cost; seems exceedingly fair to me.I think the response was to "PsyRef to cast spells from your banned schools, then PsyRef your way back to your normal build", not just PsyRef in general.

[Eldariel]

I think the response was to "PsyRef to cast spells from your banned schools, then PsyRef your way back to your normal build", not just PsyRef in general.

I don't see how that's terribly cheesy; you're paying a major price, lots of time and need a high level Psion to cast few spells from a banned school for a short duration. Seems fair enough to me. And really, if that's a problem, it's the feats that are the root cause.

[Aquillion]

Shadow Evocation doesn't satisfactorily mimic any of the useful force effects in evocation without using Shadow Adept cheese. Even then, an illusory wall of force has no effect on objects, so you can still shoot ballista through it, or lava, or whatever.Not true. From Shadow Evocation's text:


Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.If you want to shoot through it, you must make a Will Save; if you fail, you won't be able to, since the game's rules indicate that the normal effect of a Wall of Force is to deny you line of effect. (Strictly speaking, you cannot even attempt to shoot through it.)

[Vulpievulpinal]

okay, dont EVER EVER EVER as a conjurer give up abjuration!!!!! Forget losing dispel magic and its greater brother! You lose spells like: Dimensional anchor, banishment, dismissal, nondetection, and not to mention the magic circle spell line! You cannot bind outsiders without the magic circle series! If your a conjurer, you must keep abjuration at all costs!