Half-Dragon Centaur Character: Am I overdoing it?

[Ellen K]

Hello peeps,

Because I find myself incapable of doing anything the normal way, I have created a half-dragon centaur ranger character for myself. I made her for 3.5. The thing that's worrying me is the huge bonuses she gets to her stats, both for being a centaur PC and a half-dragon PC; I'm afraid everything is going to be too easy and no one will want to play with her. I also happened to roll really well, so her abilities go like this:

Str. 28
Dex. 16
Con. 28
Int. 22
Wis. 20
Cha. 25

She also has 77 hit points, if I calculated correctly (It's been a while since I made a character from scratch). Is this ridiculous? I should note that she's also level six, because of her races.

As things ended up, she's Lawful Good (bronze dragon), and I decided she was raised by a druid, so I thought maybe if she refused to attack things, it would balance out the fact that she's a freeking tank.

So, yeah, is she unbalanced compared to a "normal" character? Will no DM ever let me play her ever?:smalleek:

[tyckspoon]

Depends. Do you have the LA properly accounted for? You have 4 HD, 2 LA from Centaur, and 3 from Half-dragon, making that an ECL 9 character (if the rest of the party is actually playing at level 6, or worse starting at 1, then yes, you're overpowered, because you have too many levels.) Otherwise, step back from your apparent big numbers and consider what the rest of the party looks like. You're likely only overdoing it compared to a level 9 Human Fighter, and that is because basically Human Fighters suck; core melee characters only really have raw numbers going for them, and that is one area where monstrous characters notably do as well or better.

[Jack Zander]

Yeah, compare your level 1 ranger with 4 Monstrous humanoid HD to a level 9 human wizard, or cleric, or Hell, even another ranger, and see who comes out on top.

[Greenish]

Yeah, compare your level 1 ranger with 4 Monstrous humanoid HD to a level 9 human wizard, or cleric, or Hell, even another ranger, and see who comes out on top.You'd compare the half-dragon centaur ranger 1 with other level 10 characters, surely.

[Edit]: How did you roll those stats anyway? You've got (before racial modifiers) 23 Cha, for example, and 20 Int..

[Vangor]

Total modifiers are +16 Str, +6 Con, +4 Dex, +0 Int, +2 Wis, and +2 Cha. Means you have a 12 Str, 12 Dex, 22 Con, 22 Int, 18 Wis, 23 Cha before modifiers. Centaur alone is 4 RHD +2 LA for your ECL6 game. And at a 28 Con, you receive +8 HP per HD with 4d8 due to RHD meaning a maximum of 64 HP, only able to be 77 if you've taken a level of ranger placing you at ECL10.

You've done some things wrong. Besides, if you have rolled statistics and made an LA/RHD character, why are you asking if a DM would allow you to place this character? Shouldn't your DM have said how stats are rolled, watched you roll stats, and approved LA/RHD?

[nyarlathotep]

As everyone else pointed out, you're not playing an overpowered character you're playing an illegal character.

[Yora]

12, 12, 22, 22, 18, 23 is indeed "extremely well". How did you end up with those ability scores?
That's an average above 18 for each ability score. That shouldn't even be possible.

[Metahuman1]

Was this like a funny house rule for the dice rolls? I've occasionally had DM's that have a rule like

"Roll 7d6 drop the lowest 2" for character creation for "High Power" or "Epic" campaigns.

[Yora]

In either case, we need more information to give any kind of advice.

[MarkusWolfe]

12, 12, 22, 22, 18, 23 is indeed "extremely well". How did you end up with those ability scores?
That's an average above 18 for each ability score. That shouldn't even be possible.

I'm going to ignore that anything above 18 pre-racial modifiers is normally impossible and pretend that all those 20+ scores are just 18s......that's still a 72 point build you're working with here (by comparison, a 32 point build is suitable for 'high fantasy' games, and the highest possible build is 96 points). If we extrapolate and allow for scores greater than 18, it's actually a 132 point build.

Either her DM is going to unleash an insanely high powered campaign on her, or he doesn't know what he's doing and is in over his head.

[Ellen K]

Here's how I rolled:

Str 12
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 16
Wis 18
Cha 17

I rolled 4 dice and removed the lowest, did this 7 times, removed the lowest total. It's a variation on a rule I was taught, and it's how everyone in my group has rolled. We came up with it when my brother was making a monk, so it would be easier for him to have high dexterity and intelligence.

For being a centaur, she gets +8 str, +4 dex, +4 con, -2 int. For half-dragon she gets +8 str, +8 con, +8 int, and +8 cha. I got all the information off the D&D wiki.

As for her levels, she gets +3 for half-dragon and +2 for centaur, and rather than using the ECL I just said she was a level 6 ranger. This saved me some headaches, is really the only reason I did this. It also decided that everyone in the group starts at class level 6, which worked out well for my brother's monk because it gave him some useful abilities and made it more interesting for him.

Also, the thing is that I know my DM friend will let me play her, but I was hoping to use her in places other than with this group. Is that not usually done? I'm still a bit of a newbie, so is it normal to make a new character whenever you play with a new DM?

[Aspenor]

Racial Hit Dice count toward your ECL. Your ECL is 4 (RHD) + 2 (Centaur LA) + 3 (Half Dragon LA) = 9. With a character level, you have an effectively level 10 character.

Since you are trying to get level 6, you aren't doing it right. A regular Centaur with no character levels is a level 6 character.

[Cartigan]

For half-dragon she gets +8 str, +8 con, +8 int, and +8 cha. I got all the information off the D&D wiki.

No, it doen't.

[Greenish]

I got all the information off the D&D wiki.Do not. Dandwiki is rife with homebrew not marked as such. The actual half-dragon template is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm).

As for her levels, she gets +3 for half-dragon and +2 for centaur, and rather than using the ECL I just said she was a level 6 ranger.ECL = RHD + LA + lvl. Your character has ECL 10.

[Ellen K]

Either her DM is going to unleash an insanely high powered campaign on her, or he doesn't know what he's doing and is in over his head.

Don't talk about me like I'm not here! :smallamused:

The whole group that's forming is players who either haven't played much at all before, or haven't played since the 80's. The DM is one of the latter. He's wanted to DM in the past but hasn't ever had the chance. The whole group is kind of taking it as a learning experience kind of thing. I'm using the first level 6 adventure we play as an experiment to see if it's too easy, if it is, I may just decrease her stats a little. Or we could just make a rule that I have to play adventures higher than my level.

So yeah to answer you, we're probably in over our heads, but it's all just good fun.

[MarkusWolfe]

For being a centaur, she gets +8 str, +4 dex, +4 con, -2 int. For half-dragon she gets +8 str, +8 con, +8 int, and +8 cha. I got all the information off the D&D wiki.

Ah....half dragon gives STR +8, CON +2, INT +2, CHA +2, centaur gives +8 STR, +4 DEX, +4 CON, –2 INT, +2 WIS. That's a total of +16 STR, +6 CON, +4 DEX, +2 CHA and +2 WIS. What you've got is +16 STR, +12 CON, +4 DEX, +6 INT and +6 CHA.

[Kylarra]

For being a centaur, she gets +8 str, +4 dex, +4 con, -2 int. For half-dragon she gets +8 str, +8 con, +8 int, and +8 cha. I got all the information off the D&D wiki.
As much as I'd like to poke fun at D&D wiki, it isn't actually deviating from the norm this time (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-dragon) so I'm kind of curious where you saw the +8 across the 4 stats.

Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2.




As for her levels, she gets +3 for half-dragon and +2 for centaur, and rather than using the ECL I just said she was a level 6 ranger. This saved me some headaches, is really the only reason I did this. It also decided that everyone in the group starts at class level 6, which worked out well for my brother's monk because it gave him some useful abilities and made it more interesting for him.You're not including your 4 RHD. Your ECL is 9 before class levels. 5 la +4 rhd.




Also, the thing is that I know my DM friend will let me play her, but I was hoping to use her in places other than with this group. Is that not usually done? I'm still a bit of a newbie, so is it normal to make a new character whenever you play with a new DM?Generally for rolled stats, yes. If it's made with the same pointbuy, then usually characters can be transferred, but then again, abnormal races + templates tend to have lower chance of being reusable.

[Cartigan]

Do not. Dandwiki is rife with homebrew not marked as such. The actual half-dragon template is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm).
Unless he went to the wrong section of the site, dandwiki does NOT say it gets 4 +8 scores.

[Ellen K]

The actual half-dragon template is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm).
ECL = RHD + LA + lvl. Your character has ECL 10.

Oy, thanks. I guess her stats are too high then. Also I did not know that her racial hit dice affect her ECL. Also also... what is LA?

[The Glyphstone]

Here's how I rolled:

Str 12
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 16
Wis 18
Cha 17

I rolled 4 dice and removed the lowest, did this 7 times, removed the lowest total. It's a variation on a rule I was taught, and it's how everyone in my group has rolled. We came up with it when my brother was making a monk, so it would be easier for him to have high dexterity and intelligence.

For being a centaur, she gets +8 str, +4 dex, +4 con, -2 int. For half-dragon she gets +8 str, +8 con, +8 int, and +8 cha. I got all the information off the D&D wiki.

As for her levels, she gets +3 for half-dragon and +2 for centaur, and rather than using the ECL I just said she was a level 6 ranger. This saved me some headaches, is really the only reason I did this. It also decided that everyone in the group starts at class level 6, which worked out well for my brother's monk because it gave him some useful abilities and made it more interesting for him.

Also, the thing is that I know my DM friend will let me play her, but I was hoping to use her in places other than with this group. Is that not usually done? I'm still a bit of a newbie, so is it normal to make a new character whenever you play with a new DM?

Aaah, D&D Wiki. The culprit has been revealed. As a protip, the website is basically worthless and very much unreliable.

Centaurs also have +2 Wisdom, but otherwise you're accurate.
Half-Dragons Are +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, not the +8's you've allocated.

As to your question - you don't always have to make new characters, but each table/game you play in may have different rules. In this case, you've deviated so significantly from the normal rules for levels and ECL (4 RHD+2 LA +3 LA) makes you ECL9 before any class levels, ECL10 at Ranger 1. If you're a level 6 ranger, you weigh in equal to a 15th level character. No table in existence is going to let you play that opposite level 6 humanoid PC's.


EDIT: Swordsaged by lots of people.

LA is Level Adjustment, a penalty you take in exchange for racial abilities and high stats. In this case, the stats and abilities from Half-Dragon 'cost' you 3 class levels of health and abilities.

[Aspenor]

Don't talk about me like I'm not here! :smallamused:

The whole group that's forming is players who either haven't played much at all before, or haven't played since the 80's. The DM is one of the latter. He's wanted to DM in the past but hasn't ever had the chance. The whole group is kind of taking it as a learning experience kind of thing. I'm using the first level 6 adventure we play as an experiment to see if it's too easy, if it is, I may just decrease her stats a little. Or we could just make a rule that I have to play adventures higher than my level.

So yeah to answer you, we're probably in over our heads, but it's all just good fun.

Frankly, it is not fair to play a monsterous race with a new DM. The level adjustment mechanic is not incredibly precise, and balancing encounters between level-adjusted characters and non level adjusted characters can be a tedious chore for a new DM.

In short, don't play this character. Play something else.

[Ellen K]

Arg, so many replies all at once!

I have no idea how I ended up with the +8 +8 +8 +8 stats. O_o That was just me apparently. Wow. :smalleek:

[Crossblade]

As for her levels, she gets +3 for half-dragon and +2 for centaur, and rather than using the ECL I just said she was a level 6 ranger.

You did not add the 4 HD for being a centaur. So, of course you're going to be stronger than your level 6 companions. You'll be 4 levels stronger than your level 6 friends!

When using monster races you have to add Hit Dice AND Level Adjustment TO your Class Levels.

2 LA centaur + 3 LA half-dragon + 4 HD centaur + 1 ranger = Level 10 Character.

Level 10 > Level 6

[Ellen K]

Frankly, it is not fair to play a monsterous race with a new DM. The level adjustment mechanic is not incredibly precise, and balancing encounters between level-adjusted characters and non level adjusted characters can be a tedious chore for a new DM.

In short, don't play this character. Play something else.

In my defense, I am also going to try DMing in the near future, and the DM got to make a weretiger to play as. So when he goes all tigery, he's pretty close to my stats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm), as it appears in the Monster Manual. Note the following under Centaurs as Characters: "Racial Hit Dice: A centaur begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid," those levels count just like any other levels, and they aren't optional. You cannot replace those with Ranger levels, that's four levels of Monstrous Humanoid that every Centaur has to take, before he gains any levels in any other classes. Centaur also has a +2 Level Adjustment, which means that a Centaur character will have two fewer levels than any other character in the party. In a party of 6th level characters, a Centaur will only get four levels (4+2=6). Those four levels have to be your Monstrous Humanoid levels, if the party were any lower than 6th level, you wouldn't even be allowed to play a Centaur because its minimum starting level is 6th.

Half-Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm), as it appears in the Monster Manual. Note that it gets a +3 Level Adjustment, so a Half-Dragon character will have an additional three fewer levels than the other characters in the party. Adding that onto a Centaur means your minimum starting level would be 9th (4+2+3=9), and as a 9th level character you would only have four levels of Monstrous Humanoid.

[Greenish]

Oy, thanks. I guess her stats are too high then. Also I did not know that her racial hit dice affect her ECL. Also also... what is LA?Level Adjustment. You know, that thing which half-dragon has 3 and centaur has 2. They're counted towards you effective character level, but don't contribute anything (no hitdie, no skillpoints, no attack bonus, no anything).

[Jack Zander]

Since you guys are so new, I would strongly recommend against playing anything with racial hit dice or more than +1 LA. My group has been playing for 5 years and we still won't go near any of that stuff.

[Ellen K]

But... but... I wanna play her...

I think I can figure it out, the thing that keeps confusing me is all the different kinds of levels. Monster levels and class levels and arrrggg.

[MarkusWolfe]

Play her when you DM. No, I take that back. NO ONE likes DMPCs. Instead, whip up the evil version of her and sic it on your players.

[Greenish]

But... but... I wanna play her...Well, you can drop the half-dragon part and the ranger level to get down to ECL 6 like your friends. You could then take Dragonborn (+0 LA) to get wings and a dragonic appearance.

[Aspenor]

In my defense, I am also going to try DMing in the near future, and the DM got to make a weretiger to play as. So when he goes all tigery, he's pretty close to my stats.

Your stats aren't the whole problem. What is a problem as that this is a level 10 character, not a level 6. Also....

You have high stats, but get pretty much nothing out of it (well, you can carry a bunch of stuff...).

The reason that's all you get out of it is because 4 centaur racial hit dice and means you have low base attack bonus for a ranger of your level (which is level 10, and you have BAB 4). With low BAB, you can't hit reliably despite your stats and your damage output suffers because you can't use Power Attack.

You only have 5 hit dice on a level 10 character. This means you have nil for hit points, and you have low caps on your skills.

You have high stats, but bad saves because you only have 5 hit dice.

You are ECL 10, and any vanilla human class X level 10 would mop the floor with you. Even taking out the half dragon, you are ECL 7, and any vanilla ECL 7 human spellcaster would mop the floor with you. You probably would lose 50% or more of the time to a vanilla human mundane melee.

To be level 6, you'd have to remove half dragon AND remove your class level, then you're just a centaur. You have bad BAB, bad saves, bad skills, and halfway decent stats that don't make up for what you've lost. You would lose to most ECL 6 vanilla characters.

It isn't that you're overpowered, it's that you have a horribly weak character that is technically much higher level than the campaign is supposed to be allowing.

[Ellen K]

Well, you can drop the half-dragon part and the ranger level to get down to ECL 6 like your friends. You could then take Dragonborn (+0 LA) to get wings and a dragonic appearance.

I did consider that for a while. At this point though, I think I'll just adjust her stats and make notes about how she's supposed to level. :smallfrown: I think I can figure it out. I'll try, anyway.

[Particle_Man]

There is a way to do your character concept in a level 6 party.

First lower your stats: Just start as a "pure" centaur. Now you are level 6. By the way, this method means that one of your racial HD is your "first level" so you quadruple the class skills for centaur, max out the first centaur racial HD, etc.

Second, from now (while adventuring, not at chargen) take class levels in "The Draconic Racial Class" as described on pages 70-71 of Races of the Dragon. This technically gives you "level 1" in this racial class from the get go for "free", but that gains you nothing (not HD, no skills, etc.) except a small bonus to the spot and intimidate checks, so can slide (it is an ECL = 0 level!). Take nothing but these "effective class levels" until you "finish" the class. This will allow you to advance in levels to become a "half-dragon centaur" at level 10 (ECL 9). Note that these "Effective levels" in this class don't give you extra HD or skill points.

At the end of the process you would have 4 centaur HD, +2 centaur LA, and the draconic racial class 4th, but since the first level is "free" your ECL would be 9th. As an additional advantage, you could perhaps buy off the centaur LA if your DM uses that optional rule (also found in the srd d20, which you can google). After that, you can start on ranger levels.

Otherwise, if you must play a half-dragon centaur from the get-go, you need to convince the DM to start everyone at level 9 (or 10, if you also want to start as a 1st level ranger), and you need to adjust your stats downwards to truly reflect a half-dragon (Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2).

[Greenish]

I did consider that for a while. At this point though, I think I'll just adjust her stats and make notes about how she's supposed to level.It might be advisable to cleave rather closely to the rules until one has the working knowledge of them enough to know how they should be changed.

Just a thought.

[Particle_Man]

Or, if you are playing a 9th or 10th level character in a 6th level party, at least make sure that the DM remembers to give you a lot less xp than your friends for the encounters you face. Then, eventually, your friends may catch up to you.

[Ellen K]

Maybe I will just make her level 9 or 10, that sounds like the easiest plan. I kind of like the idea of being a higher level and tagging along with all the level 6's. :smallamused:

You guys are being very helpful, I do appreciate it.

[Cog]

Bariaurs, in the Planar Handbook, are Medium size ram-centaurs, and they've only got LA +1. A dragonborn bariaur would be a dragon-flavored centaur, with no racial hit dice and only a single LA. In a party of level six characters, you could still have five levels of normal classes. You're a little smaller, and not as strong physically, but real class levels easily make up for that in most cases.

As for the were-tiger you're comparing it to... that's not a level 6 character either. Weretigers have at least 7 HD (six for the tiger plus one class level) and at least 2 LA, so at minimum that's a ninth-level character.

[MarkusWolfe]

Maybe I will just make her level 9 or 10, that sounds like the easiest plan. I kind of like the idea of being a higher level and tagging along with all the level 6's. :smallamused:

But. That's. Not. How. You. Play. The. Game.

[Greenish]

Far be it from me to suggest that there would be such a thing as a "wrong" way to play the game, but I'm forced to agree with MarkusWolfe above.

If your DM says you start at ECL 6, you can't just randomly decide to start at ECL 10.

[Jack Zander]

Why don't you just play something else for now and then switch over to this character when the party reaches level 10?

EDIT: Also, if you do this I would keep a copy of your old character. After the switch it'll be very likely that you'll realize how useless your half dragon centaur will be compared to the rest of the party, and you'll want to switch back.

[Aspenor]

Maybe I will just make her level 9 or 10, that sounds like the easiest plan. I kind of like the idea of being a higher level and tagging along with all the level 6's. :smallamused:

You guys are being very helpful, I do appreciate it.

No, that is a bad idea. You will be different level than your party, and that's not cool.

It is much more difficult to calculate XP as a DM when your party differs in level. New DM's won't know how to do this, as I've even had an experienced DM that didn't know how to do it.

Make a level 6 character.

[Ellen K]

I think I will go with Particle Man's plan, and treat her as a plain old centaur until I get to ECL 9. Or see if everyone else wants to be level 10.

[Vangor]

I think I will go with Particle Man's plan, and treat her as a plain old centaur until I get to ECL 9. Or see if everyone else wants to be level 10.

This is, in many ways, a poor idea for a player who does not yet understand LA and ECL. Simply, I would say do not.

[faceroll]

Maybe I will just make her level 9 or 10, that sounds like the easiest plan. I kind of like the idea of being a higher level and tagging along with all the level 6's. :smallamused:

You guys are being very helpful, I do appreciate it.

This may not be that big of a deal, depending how much internet help the other players get to optimize their level 6 characters. Plus. they'll level faster.


No, that is a bad idea. You will be different level than your party, and that's not cool.

It is much more difficult to calculate XP as a DM when your party differs in level. New DM's won't know how to do this, as I've even had an experienced DM that didn't know how to do it.

Make a level 6 character.

If anyone has the internet, they should use this:
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm

Very easy.

[Ellen K]

Hey, I learned quickly. I got it now. I know what a level adjustment is, I just didn't realize that's what LA stood for. ECL is the effective character level, it's what her levels are with monster level adjustments and such, and is separate from her class level.

Thanks, Faceroll, I had a similar thought about the other players leveling, but I'm still a newbie so I didn't know if it was allowed.

[Greenish]

ECL is the effective character level, it's what her levels are with monster level adjustments and such, and is separate from her class level.No, your class level figures into your ECL.

[Ellen K]

Yeah, but if I'm ECL 10 it doesn't mean I get level 10 ranger skills.

[faceroll]

No, your class level figures into your ECL.

But your ECL doesn't figure into your class level, except for WBL. I think that's what she meant by separate.

[MarkusWolfe]

But your ECL doesn't figure into your class level, except for WBL. I think that's what she meant by separate.

OH for the love of....

ECL=class levels + LA+ racial HD.

Class level is a component of ECL. However, everything is designed based on ECL as opposed to class level. For example, a CR 8 encounter is designed for a balanced party of 4 characters each with an ECL of 8, and some hazards are designed for a balanced party of 4 characters each with an ECL of 5. We just say that a CR 8 encounter is meant for a balanced party of 4 level 8 characters and that those hazards are meant for a a balanced party of 4 level 5 characters because races without LA and racial HD are the norm.

[Vangor]

Hey, I learned quickly. I got it now. I know what a level adjustment is, I just didn't realize that's what LA stood for. ECL is the effective character level, it's what her levels are with monster level adjustments and such, and is separate from her class level.

More than simply what ECL means literally but what your ECL means to the rest of the party and overshadowing, what your LA means in relation to your ECL with regards to misconceptions about the power of LA, and how you seem to be assuming simply choosing to be ECL10 is something a player is allowed to do. I would not do this as a player, I would not recommend you do this as a player, and as a DM I would not allow you to do this.

[faceroll]

OH for the love of....

ECL=class levels + LA+ racial HD.

Class level is a component of ECL. However, everything is designed based on ECL as opposed to class level. For example, a CR 8 encounter is designed for a balanced party of 4 characters each with an ECL of 8, and some hazards are designed for a balanced party of 4 characters each with an ECL of 5. We just say that a CR 8 encounter is meant for a balanced party of 4 level 8 characters and that those hazards are meant for a a balanced party of 4 level 5 characters because races without LA and racial HD are the norm.

Missing the point, bro.
If your ECL is 12, that does not necessarily mean your caster level is 12, you have the two weapon fighting of a level 12 ranger, that your max skill ranks in class skills is 15, or that your BAB is 12 (or 8 or 6).
Soooo, ECL is not a part of class level. All A are B != All B are A.


More than simply what ECL means literally but what your ECL means to the rest of the party and overshadowing, what your LA means in relation to your ECL with regards to misconceptions about the power of LA, and how you seem to be assuming simply choosing to be ECL10 is something a player is allowed to do. I would not do this as a player, I would not recommend you do this as a player, and as a DM I would not allow you to do this.

Meh, she's got big stats. With the right guidance, her fellow players could do just fine with 6 class levels. Wouldn't recommend it for a noob game like hers, though.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Maybe I will just make her level 9 or 10, that sounds like the easiest plan. I kind of like the idea of being a higher level and tagging along with all the level 6's. :smallamused:

Your friends very well may not.

[MarkusWolfe]

Missing the point, bro.
If your ECL is 12, that does not necessarily mean your caster level is 12, you have the two weapon fighting of a level 12 ranger, that your max skill ranks in class skills is 15, or that your BAB is 12 (or 8 or 6).
Soooo, ECL is not a part of class level. All A are B != All B are A.

Of course ECL is not part of class level. Alberta is part of Canada, Canada is not part of Alberta! The point I'm trying to make is that for the purposes of what you can and cannot bring to a game is based on ECL, not class levels.

[faceroll]

Of course ECL is not part of class level. Alberta is part of Canada, Canada is not part of Alberta! The point I'm trying to make is that for the purposes of what you can and cannot bring to a game is based on ECL, not class levels.

Really, anything is allowed. There aren't even any hard rules about what levels characters have to be in a party. Look at all the level loss effects. It's rather clear that there's an expectation parties will be of mixed level.

Now, is it a good idea? It depends. Here, I would suggest OP tones it down or has her friends come to us so we can make a good level 6 build for them. LA is terribly overpriced.

[Solaris]

Play her when you DM. No, I take that back. NO ONE likes DMPCs. Instead, whip up the evil version of her and sic it on your players.

Careful with the absolutes, Bucky. Just because most of them are nothing but the DM's self-insert Mary Sue (which is a problem 'cause it interferes with the players being Mary Sues) doesn't mean all of them are.
But that's a thread derailment I don't think we should repeat.

Were I the DM, I would look at this character as something to be built from the ground up rather than be built using the God-awful LA and ECL rules. As whatsisface stated earlier, the character simply can't compete with something of its own ECL with the rules as written. I'm looking at the centaur right now, and vanilla it's not worth a 6th-level character. A mounted 6th-level orc fighter does everything it does, only better. The only advantage is a higher Strength score. Good, but certainly not game-breaking - especially when you consider that the good ol' centaur has a real time getting around in dungeons.
I'd try making it something like a Large monstrous humanoid with five racial Hit Dice, one class level, no LA (RHD being worth significantly less than class levels). Dragonblood subtype. 50 ft speed. It keeps the centaur's body plan, including lacking reach and adding only being able to wield weapons as a Medium creature (as the torso is only Medium-sized, the centaur should have this if ya ask me). 60' darkvision, low-light vision, all the half-dragon special qualities. Its wings only enable gliding (and grant a +10 or so bonus on Jumps) until you hit level 10, at which point they allow you clumsy flight at your speed, and at level 15 they allow poor at twice your speed. Natural armor is +4, and the claw attacks deal damage as a Medium creature. No bite attack, unless you just can't live without it (in which case it's still as a Medium creature). Breath weapon is the same. Ability scores modifiers: +8 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha. If you're getting LA, you will need a higher boost to Constitution, like +4. Otherwise the loss in hit points starts making playing this as a combatant-type counterproductive.
The above would be on the higher end, but compares well (I think) to a orc barbarian 4/fighter 2. Just don't play a primary spellcaster, and try to avoid cheesing out the build so you overshadow the other players.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, I like the concept behind the character. It's got great cool points, particularly for a dragon fanatic like me.

So, I'm gonna give you some stuff too help.

First, In the Player's handbook II, there are rules for character Rebuilds. Start as a human Ranger, and then in a couple of level's do one of the rebuild quests to get Centaur as your race, on the grounds that you've "Evolved" some too the point where you feel you should haven been born one. That will help get Centaur and Ranger level's squeezed in early one.

Second, Repeat the process a few level's later for Half dragon as part of discovering your heritage and bringing it's power too full force.

Third, if possible, use LA buyoff to try and get the Centaur and Half Dragon LA down as much as possible. This would work best in Sandbox games that would allow you too do stuff away from the party too catch you ELC up too them. You'll still suffer the 4 Racial Hit dice, but it would make the character more playable.

[Ellen K]

Solaris, that is pretty much exactly what I was expecting her to be when I started making her. It all got complicated really fast.

I made her a ranger because I figured it'd be cool to have a flying archer, and even though dexterity isn't her strong suit, it's decent.

I see no reason why the group would have a problem with me being level 10 but honestly I figured it would be a bonus for them. And we're really more interested in roleplaying than in combat and stuff, but I certainly won't be doing everything for everyone else. It's a team effort and I know that.

[Yora]

Having some characters two or more levels above the others usually makes everyone else into spectators while the high level character solves all problems by himself. With an archer that wouldn't be that much of a problem. But if you have for example a wizard or druid with 4 levels more than anyone else, he can always tell everyone else to stand back and defeat all the enemies all by himself.
So it's usually a very bad idea to have characters at different levels.

With this much racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment, having an archer whose ECL is 4 levels above the other party members might actually be possible, since archers are not very strong and Level Adjustment is usually calculated higher than it's worth. But handling such things would take quite some experience from the dm, so I also really don't recommend it for a beginners group.

[tyckspoon]

You have high stats, but bad saves because you only have 5 hit dice.

You are ECL 10, and any vanilla human class X level 10 would mop the floor with you. Even taking out the half dragon, you are ECL 7, and any vanilla ECL 7 human spellcaster would mop the floor with you. You probably would lose 50% or more of the time to a vanilla human mundane melee.


If you're just comparing it for the 'big hunk of beatstick' role, then the centaur deserves a little more credit. Its Strength is high enough to make up the BAB gap, it's got 5 natural weapons on it, and its base form is Large so Half-Dragon gives it wings, which gets you much closer to actually getting value out of that 3 LA. It also has significantly improved AC, given otherwise equal gearing, thanks to 6 points of natural armor between Centaur and Half-Dragon. Give it Multiattack and it'll certainly put out the damage. It still has the big vulnerabilities in saves and HP count, but it does hold its own in the 'hit stuff until dead' job, and I'd be willing to pit it in that role against any other Core melee build (its biggest downfall in that point is lack of feats, and.. well, if we're talking Core melee, its Fighter competition ran out of useful feats at level 6 anyway, and the Barbarian is going to do so at either 6 or 9 as well.)

[Quietus]

Solaris, that is pretty much exactly what I was expecting her to be when I started making her. It all got complicated really fast.

I made her a ranger because I figured it'd be cool to have a flying archer, and even though dexterity isn't her strong suit, it's decent.

I see no reason why the group would have a problem with me being level 10 but honestly I figured it would be a bonus for them. And we're really more interested in roleplaying than in combat and stuff, but I certainly won't be doing everything for everyone else. It's a team effort and I know that.

Consider this : You're told that you're allowed to play this character. However, the next person in your group goes "Oh, I have this great idea for a Red Wyrm Wizard! I mean, it's only a few levels higher than Ellen's character, so it should be okay, right?"

Said character then proceeds to be the driving force in every encounter, effectively turning you into a sidekick who's along for the ride. Does this sound like fun to you? Because this is exactly what you'll be doing to everyone else if you decide that "Oh, I'll just be a few levels higher than everyone else because I like this idea so much. They won't mind, I'm sure!"

[Jasdahlk]

Consider this : You're told that you're allowed to play this character. However, the next person in your group goes "Oh, I have this great idea for a Red Wyrm Wizard! I mean, it's only a few levels higher than Ellen's character, so it should be okay, right?"

Said character then proceeds to be the driving force in every encounter, effectively turning you into a sidekick who's along for the ride. Does this sound like fun to you? Because this is exactly what you'll be doing to everyone else if you decide that "Oh, I'll just be a few levels higher than everyone else because I like this idea so much. They won't mind, I'm sure!"

As one of the other people in the group she has mentioned, I can assure you that all the characters for the campaign are decided.

Everyone knows about all the other characters for the campaign, and none have expressed concern about her character choice.

We're just a bunch of friends getting together to hang out and play some D&D while we're at it. Thankfully, no one else DOES mind.

While I appreciate your concern about the effects this Half-Dragon Centaur character will have on the rest of the group, please know that no one in this group shares your concerns.

[Ellen K]

Well, that's why I'm going to roleplay her in such a way that I hang back a little and let other people get in on the fun. Just because I can, doesn't mean I will.

[nedz]

Yeah, but if I'm ECL 10 it doesn't mean I get level 10 ranger skills.

You would get the skill points from 4 levels of Monsterous Humanoid and 1 level of Ranger.
Monsterous Humanoid is defined in the Monster Manual.
But its easier just to look at the Centaur entry on P32.
You get 7x(2+Int Mod) skill points, with the four class skills as listed.
7: because its 4 for the first level, and one each for the next three.
The skills are quite useful for a Ranger, but Rangers get 6+Int Mod and have a wider selection of class skills.
So you would get a further 6+Int mod skill points for your 1 Ranger level.

Have fun.

[Marnath]

You would get the skill points from 4 levels of Monsterous Humanoid and 1 level of Ranger.
Monsterous Humanoid is defined in the Monster Manual.
But its easier just to look at the Centaur entry on P32.
You get 7x(2+Int Mod) skill points, with the four class skills as listed.
7: because its 4 for the first level, and one each for the next three.
The skills are quite useful for a Ranger, but Rangers get 6+Int Mod and have a wider selection of class skills.
So you would get a further 6+Int mod skill points for your 1 Ranger level.

Have fun.

Why does everyone keep saying that? The character gets 4 dragon hitdice. Half-dragon changes your racial dice to dragon, remember?

So you're actually getting full BAB and all good saves, plus 7x(6+Int Mod) skill points.

[tyckspoon]

Why does everyone keep saying that? The character gets 4 dragon hitdice. Half-dragon changes your racial dice to dragon, remember?

So you're actually getting full BAB and all good saves, plus 7x(6+Int Mod) skill points.

It changes your type. It does not change all your hit dice to Dragon; it's actually quite specific about what you do and don't get. For example, you do not recalculate your BAB (Monstrous Humanoids have full BAB anyway) or saves, your HD size only increases by one step instead of jumping all the way to d12, and while you do get dragon skillpoints, your class skill list is still that of the base creature.

[Marnath]

It changes your type. It does not change all your hit dice to Dragon; it's actually quite specific about what you do and don't get. For example, you do not recalculate your BAB (Monstrous Humanoids have full BAB anyway) or saves, your HD size only increases by one step instead of jumping all the way to d12, and while you do get dragon skillpoints, your class skill list is still that of the base creature.

Hmm, I guess I wasn't paying attention well enough.:smallconfused:

[faceroll]

From the SRD:

Skills
A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

[AtlanteanTroll]

We're just a bunch of friends getting together to hang out and play some D&D while we're at it. Thankfully, no one else DOES mind.

Well that's not the usual reaction (to what I consider being up-staged) but if your group doesn't mind that's good.

[ffone]

It's funny how people always manage to not-understand LA, RHD, and ECL in a way which lets them play a too-high-ECL character...never the other way around.

[The Glyphstone]

It's funny how people always manage to not-understand LA, RHD, and ECL in a way which lets them play a too-high-ECL character...never the other way around.

Considering most monster characters would somehow have negative class levels if you went 'the other way around', it'd be kind of hard to interpret it that wrongly.

[Cog]

It's funny how people always manage to not-understand LA, RHD, and ECL in a way which lets them play a too-high-ECL character...never the other way around.
If the listings gave HD and ECL instead of HD and LA, that would probably be the case more often. The way they phrase things now, it's hard to accidentally add the same number in twice.