gish spells

[Bloodymango]

so in a few months i will be playing in a new campaign. im going knight then sorcerer. i was wondering what are some good buffing spells to help me survive. i will only be geting up to 8th lv spells

[Flickerdart]

You want 9th level spells and 16 BAB by 20 as a gish - anything else is simply aiming under par. Use a Bard/Sublime Chord/Abjurant Champion base for the build and you'll get both. A few levels of Knight should be easy to fit.

[Bloodymango]

my build is already set. just looking for spell help here

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Shield is good, especially if you're using Abjurant Champion. If you're ultra-good and want to spend a feat on Arcane Preparation you can use (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED, which also benefits from Abjurant Champion.

Mirror Image and Greater Mirror Image in PH2 are some of the best spells for avoiding attacks. If you get a Runestaff from MIC put Greater Resistance and eventually Superior Resistance both in SC on it since you'll only need to cast either of those 1/day. Ray Deflection in SC is also pretty good to have available, such as if you're fighting Beholders or similar.

Alter Self to take the form of a Troglodyte gives you +6 natural armor for 10 minutes/level, and don't forget a few Lesser Rods of Extend. Polymorph and Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon to take the form of a Cave Troll or a War Troll both in MM3 will give you a high natural armor bonus and better physical stats.

[Bloodymango]

also forgot to mention LGCS is what we go by. so no polymore or alter self

[gbprime]

so in a few months i will be playing in a new campaign. im going knight then sorcerer. i was wondering what are some good buffing spells to help me survive. i will only be geting up to 8th lv spells

Not familiar with LGCS restrictions. Can you TAKE Polymorph and just not abuse it? If so, one of your best buffs isn't a spell, it's a Reserve Feat... Minor Shapeshift. Free temp HP anytime you want them. (If Polymorph is out, you can still trigger the reserve feat if you know a Polymorph school spell like Trollshape or Form of the Desert Hunter.)

(And speaking of feats in your build, you did decide to include Arcane Strike, right? You'll be using a lot of spell slots on it.)

The best buff spell there is for medium levels is Heart of Earth (4th). Lasts hours, adds quite a few temp HP, some bonuses, and Stoneskin whenever you want it with no component cost.

If you're party oriented, Mass Resist Energy (4th). If not, Energy Aegis (3rd) which you trade out after level 4 in Abjurant Champion.

Ditto, Mass Fire Shield (5th) if you want to buff your friends too, Fire Shield (4th) if you don't.

Consider Iron Body and Mind Blank for 8th level spells.

[only1doug]

Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) is a great spell for a gish, 1hr /lvl duration, 1 size category / 4 caster levels boost to your (blunt) melee weapon damage.

heart of water, Air, Fire & Earth (complete Mage, L2,L3,L4,L5) are also great long duration buffs that offer various benefits and cumulatively grant greater fortification.

[AslanCross]

Blade of Blood (PHB2). Not optimal, probably, but it's really cool.

[Bloodymango]

thanks guys. besides shield is there any thing else good around level one or zero spells

[only1doug]

thanks guys. besides shield is there any thing else good around level one or zero spells

At low level the same spells that are good for a normal wizard are also good for a gish, at higher level Buffs become more important but while you are low level you just don't have the caster level to get any kind of decent duration so buffs won't last much past 1 combat and you don't have enough spell slots to keep recasting.

If you like the idea of the greater mighty wallop there is a L1 version but the duration sucks. (same source: RotDragon)

[Moriato]

I'd look into the "Bite of the ____" series of spells. You can find them in the spell compendium, but I don't know what book they're from originally. They each give some VERY hefty stat and natural armor bonuses, bite and claw attacks, and the benefits of the blind-fight feat, along with some other effects depending on the particular spell. The only real downside is the duration, which is only 1 round/level.

[Bloodymango]

bump .

[dextercorvia]

I'm a big fan of Whirling Blade (SpC).

You should really check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1) out.



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[Addi]

what are some good buffing spells to help me survive.

Wings of Cover from Races of the Dragon should qualify, but it's a 2nd level spell.


If you find a method to get the Moonblade Spell from FRCS, your hits are guaranteed. Other weapon-like spells (with touch attacks) might also proof viable, but Moonblade rocks.

[Keld Denar]

Trollshape is LGCS legal, has the [Polymorph] subschool descriptor which means it can power Minor Shapeshift. Its 4th level. Actually, any of those predetermined polymorph shapes in PHBII and SpC are legal, but Trollshape is the lowest level 4th+ version. You simply reactivate it every 4th round as a swift action.

Another good one for a low level gish is Bladeweave (SpC). Its a swift action spell that you cast when you hit someone with your weapon. The have to make a save or be dazed. Its 2nd level, so its nice and low. Amuzingly enough, you can combine it with Whirling Blade to daze a foe out to 60' away. It does have a save, but becase its a swift action and it requires you to be up in someone's face hitting them, it almost more of a freebee if you aren't using that swift action that round for something (like Minor Shapeshift).

[gbprime]

thanks guys. besides shield is there any thing else good around level one or zero spells

Zero - Open/Close, Mage Hand, Message... all have good utility that allow you to either coordinate with allies or avoid traps.

First - Benign Transposition (trade places with an ally in trouble)


Trollshape is LGCS legal ... but Trollshape is the lowest level 4th+ version. You simply reactivate it every 4th round as a swift action.

If you're doing your front line gishy thing, you'll be activating it nearly EVERY round since people will be pounding those temp HP off of you regularly. Swift action every turn to renew your pool of Temp HP = character level... Combined with Damage Reduction makes for one very durable melee fighter.

[herrhauptmann]

A while ago I had a swiftblade thread and asked about good spells for the gish. Part of my reasoning was that the swiftblade handbooks just took their favorite spells from a wizard build, creating a weaker wizard who swung a sword around a bit.

So, using those lists as a base, and getting some help from Shneeky, I got this list.

Thread here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132050)

1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerverskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Greater Might Wallop (RotD)
Dolorous Blow (SC)

4th Level Spells:

Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)

What are the LGCS rules? ie: What does LGCS stand for?

edit: Greater Mighty wallop and dolorous blow included at the behest of Greenish

[Greenish]

Where's your Greater Mighty Wallop? Or Dolorous Blow?

[herrhauptmann]

Where's your Greater Mighty Wallop? Or Dolorous Blow?

Coulda sworn those were cleric spells...
What level are they, and which book? I'll add them right now

[Greenish]

Coulda sworn those were cleric spells...
What level are they, and which book? I'll add them right nowWallop is from RotD, Dolorous Blow from SC. Both 3rd level wiz/sorc spells.

[herrhauptmann]

And Done.

Just a note, Mighty wallop is bludgeoning weapon only. Dolorous blow doesn't stack with keen, improved critical and the like.

[Coidzor]

If you're doing your front line gishy thing, you'll be activating it nearly EVERY round since people will be pounding those temp HP off of you regularly. Swift action every turn to renew your pool of Temp HP = character level... Combined with Damage Reduction makes for one very durable melee fighter.

Ah, yes, I just knew there was some part of that combo I had forgotten with my most recent gish attempt. x.x

Are there any good spells to provide at least a low level of DR?

[gbprime]

Ah, yes, I just knew there was some part of that combo I had forgotten with my most recent gish attempt. x.x

Are there any good spells to provide at least a low level of DR?

Well there's Diamondsteel and Daggerspell Stance, but by far the best is Heart of Earth, as previously mentioned.

[Keld Denar]

Heart of Earth can be discharged as an immediate action to give you DR 10/Adamantine for up to CL*10 points over 1 minute. It lasts hours/level until discharged, and while its up grants +CL temp HP. If you have to pop it in a combat, simply recast it before the next combat.

Thats about the single most reliable DR spell a gish can cast. Its better than Stoneskin because it doesn't have a material component and doesn't take a standard action when you are in combat and rounds actually matter.

[true_shinken]

Get Nerveskitter ASAP. Also, get an eternal wand of Primal Instinct. Hello, +10 initiative.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What are the LGCS rules? ie: What does LGCS stand for?

My google-fu has discovered that most likely it's Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook.


Karmic Aura/Backlash/Retribution in Complete Mage make opponents who damage you have to save or become Fatigued/Exhausted/Stunned. They're levels 1, 3, and 6, each is a swift action to cast, and each lasts 1 round/level.

If you're using (Greater) Mighty Wallop and Dolorous Blow, try to spare a feat for EWP to use a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer from MMIV. It deals 1d12 medium damage, which goes to 3d6/4d6/6d6/8d6, and best of all it gets a 19-20/x4 crit so it would go to 17-20/x4.

[subject42]

Ruin Delver's Fortune (MiC) is a 4th level immediate action spell that gives you a whole menu of potential defensive choices, including the oh-so-tasty evasion.

[herrhauptmann]

My google-fu has discovered that most likely it's Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook.


Karmic Aura/Backlash/Retribution in Complete Mage make opponents who damage you have to save or become Fatigued/Exhausted/Stunned. They're levels 1, 3, and 6, each is a swift action to cast, and each lasts 1 round/level.

If you're using (Greater) Mighty Wallop and Dolorous Blow, try to spare a feat for EWP to use a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer from MMIV. It deals 1d12 medium damage, which goes to 3d6/4d6/6d6/8d6, and best of all it gets a 19-20/x4 crit so it would go to 17-20/x4.
Don't forget the strongarm bracers so you can wield the large sized weapon.
Living greyhawk, I'd thought that might be it. But last time I asked, no one responded yay or nay.

Ruin Delver's Fortune (MiC) is a 4th level immediate action spell that gives you a whole menu of potential defensive choices, including the oh-so-tasty evasion.

There's a spell in the MiC?? Spell compendium page 178. Those abilities, some are real nice, some don't seem quite worth it.
Like that ring of evasion, a Knight/Sorc isn't likely to have a high enough reflex to get Evasion coming into play regularly (depending on play style and campaign difficulty). Even with that +4 or 5 from Cha to reflex.
Bigger issue, it's 1d4 rounds in length. On the plus side, it is an immediate action.

[Bloodymango]

how good is tensers transformation

[dextercorvia]

how good is tensers transformation

It turns you into a fighter without bonus feats. This makes your wizard a fallen paladin.

[Keld Denar]

Bad. It basically takes away your main advantage to being a gish (spellcasting), and gives you a bunch of things you've already paid for by being a gish, namedly a better BAB, etc.

So basically it makes you pay everything for next to nothing. Oh, and it makes you pay a standard action and a 6th level slot for this "privledge".

Avoid it at all costs.

[Greenish]

how good is tensers transformationhttp://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg

It turns you into a warrior. And I mean the NPC class.

[TheCoelacanth]

how good is tensers transformation

I wouldn't recommend it. You lose all spellcasting and ability to use scrolls and wands and you can't dismiss it so once you cast it you're stuck without spells for 1 round/level.

[Bloodymango]

waht if i cast shield and bull str before i cast it

[dextercorvia]

waht if i cast shield and bull str before i cast it

Then you have wasted your casting of Bull's Strength.

[gbprime]

I wouldn't recommend it. You lose all spellcasting and ability to use scrolls and wands and you can't dismiss it so once you cast it you're stuck without spells for 1 round/level.

But... reserve feats aren't spellcasting. So if you've got your DR up and your Minor Shapeshift to give you temp HP each round, this might not actually be a bad idea.

However, a good gish design doesn't NEED Tenser's Transformation to give them BAB. In most cases, you're better off casting Chasing Perfection on yourself instead.

Personally I'd skip it all and cast Stone Body instead.

[Bloodymango]

but with trollshape i lose all my armor. great i get 30 temps or some thing like that. but i have an ac of 16

[veven]

I like true strike as a 1st level spell. Granted it is a standard action so unless you have a way to quicken it or get multiple actions in a round (hello celerity, which by the way is a great spell) it is one round spent not doing damage. If you just can't hit something though, it's useful to have. If you can hit your target normally however, true strike becomes great when you full power attack.

[Keld Denar]

You're missing the point. You don't learn Trollshape to actually CAST Trollshape. You learn Trollshape to power Minor Shapeshift, an incredibly powerful defensive feat for a gish. Seriously, open Complete Mage and read the feat. You can't use Polymorph to run it, since Polymorph is banned under the LGCS. Trollshape is the only 4th level spell that is LGCS legal that qualifies as a [Polymorph] subschool spell.

And yea, a properly build gish should only be a couple points behind on BAB, making the full BAB from Tensor's Transformation a total waste of time. Plus, while its up, you can't cast combat spells like Wraithstrike, Greater Mirror Image, Whirling Blade, Blade Weave, or any useful combat teleports like Benign Transposition or Dimension Hop.

Its basically like Silencing yourself for a +3 to hit. NOT worth it.

[Coidzor]

There's a Wu Jen spell that's similar except it gives you a whole bunch of clones that can't cast but can fight and use any other special abilities you have, which is especially nifty when combined with binding or incarnum or.... something else that was pretty nifty but which slips my mind. That can actually be worked with.

Tenser's Transformation can't be.


However, a good gish design doesn't NEED Tenser's Transformation to give them BAB. In most cases, you're better off casting Chasing Perfection on yourself instead.

Personally I'd skip it all and cast Stone Body instead.

Chasing Perfection? What book is that from?

[subject42]

Instead of Tenser's Transformation, take a look at "Body of War" (SpC). It turns you into a gigantic robot that's made of swords and violence.

[gbprime]

Chasing Perfection? What book is that from?

PHB2. 6th level, +4 enhancement to all stats, 1 minute/level.

I'd still choose Stone Body over that though, since by the time you can cast 6th level spells you ought to have enhancement bonus items for your main stats anyway...

[Metahuman1]

Not the most powerful spell in the game, but Enlarge person is a first lvl spell that gives you reach, increases damage by one die category, and gives you extra strenght. Not a lot of it but it stacks with other sources. It can be traded later if you get and start using something more powerful that does not stack, like Body of War. (Take it, it's full of win!)

Don't know if Snakes Swiftness (SpC), is a Sorcerer Wizard spell or not, but it might be worth while if it is, and the 2nd lvl mass version certainly would be. (Extra cheap attack/extra cheap attack for the whole party.).

Also, The Mirror's Image spells, and Displacement and Obsecering Mist with the right gear in the last one's case can ALL be a hugh Boon.

[Coidzor]

How does one avoid being similarly disadvantaged by obscuring mist as one's enemies anyway?

[herrhauptmann]

Not the most powerful spell in the game, but Enlarge person is a first lvl spell that gives you reach, increases damage by one die category, and gives you extra strenght. Not a lot of it but it stacks with other sources. It can be traded later if you get and start using something more powerful that does not stack, like Body of War. (Take it, it's full of win!)

Also, The Mirror's Image spells, and Displacement and Obsuring Mist with the right gear in the last one's case can ALL be a huge Boon.

I don't believe that enlarge person stacks with other size increases. EL, righteous might, and psionic expansion explicitly state non-stacking.

Plus, as far as using it after casting Body of War: Doesn't BoW turn you into a Construct(Living), which would make you ineligible for Enlarge person, which is a humanoid only spell.

Unless I'm reading you poorly and you're referring to the strength boosts from the size increasing spells stacking with things like Bulls Strength, Fist of Stone, or belt of giant strength.

[herrhauptmann]

How does one avoid being similarly disadvantaged by obscuring mist as one's enemies anyway?

I believe the feat Pierce magical concealment will do it.
But that's a net -8 to your caster level. And requires Blindfight as well.

[gbprime]

How does one avoid being similarly disadvantaged by obscuring mist as one's enemies anyway?

Easiest way is to have a cleric or druid ally cast Blindsight on you. 3rd level spell gives blindsight to 30 feet, 4th level to 60 feet.



Don't know if Snakes Swiftness (SpC), is a Sorcerer Wizard spell or not, but it might be worth while if it is, and the 2nd lvl mass version certainly would be. (Extra cheap attack/extra cheap attack for the whole party.)

Sor/Wiz can get it, but a level higher. So while a druid gets them as level 1 and 2 spells, Sor/Wiz has to spend level 2 and 3 slots on the same spells. And if you're going to spend a level 3 slot on it, why not just cast Haste?

[Aspenor]

Mystic Shield...pure awesome and win.

[Coidzor]

Mystic Shield...pure awesome and win.

What book is that from?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What book is that from?

Anauroch, Empires of Shade ( it is a FR adventure) level 8 spell rounds/level any spell of level 6 or lower simply won't affect you and any weapon striking you looses its magic bonus, making DR/magic actually useful

[Aspenor]

What book is that from?

Anauroch: Empire of Shade, p. 141.

Best if you can get persist tech on it. Only round/level.

It makes you entirely immune to spells and spell like abilities of 6th level and below, except for beneficial spells that you cast on yourself. It also negates the enhancement bonuses and special weapon effects of anybody trying to attack you in melee.

Combine with Starmantle (6th level) and laugh as anybody that attacks you not only does no damage, but their weapons are destroyed utterly. Monks start losing limbs. Demons lose claws and mouths. Hilarious.

Or you can just use Ghostform (8th level) and you'll be immune to their attacks without destroying the weapons.

[Keld Denar]

making DR/magic actually useful

Also causes Ironguard to become a rather rediculously broken protection spell. Immunity to all metal weapons. Period.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Also causes Ironguard to become a rather rediculously broken protection spell. Immunity to all metal weapons. Period.

For two level 8 slots, immunity to weapons doesn't seem so ridiculous in my opinion.

[Coidzor]

For two level 8 slots, immunity to weapons doesn't seem so ridiculous in my opinion.

Rendering a fighter completely irrelevant rather than making him jump through hoops (flight, ethereal, and invisibility being theoretically surmountable with money) is kinda interesting though.

[Greenish]

For two level 8 slots, immunity to weapons doesn't seem so ridiculous in my opinion.Perhaps you've played 3.5 too long?