Thought/Optimization Experiment: How far can you go on just your low-level slots?

[Veyr]

OK, say you're a 20th level full-caster — who has, for whatever reason, decided (s)he's just not going to use any spells above Xth level. Assume you're in something like an average, but Tier-3 or lower, four-person party.

What's the lowest value of X that you'd think you could remain competent in this party, able to contribute as much as your equal-level Tier-3 comrades? Just how far can you stretch those lower-level spells? You can use higher-level slots to cast lower-level spells, but no metamagic-ing them up past X. No infinite loops, nothing stupid like Planar Shepherd or Beholder Mage or whatever. No Druid, since Wild Shape throws things off too much. No Leadership or similar. You can use Psionics, but can't Augment Powers past the cost of an Xth level Power. No using magic items that require or create the effects of spells higher than Xth level, either.

At level 20, no better than 15 BAB, and no HD larger than a d8 — this needs to be a mage (or a Cleric with Divine Power, I suppose, but then X is at least 4). You must have the ability to cast 9th level spells (manifest 9th level powers), you just can't use them.


I don't have anything specific in mind, but I suspect X=4 is probably do-able; but then, I'm no great optimizer. I'd love to hear input from the people of these forums who really know the game well.

I'm not looking for particular builds, but things like "Well, I wouldn't want X<Y because I need Z effect that you can only get in a Yth level spell" or "I'd use this trick to avoid needing spells of Yth level".

[Thiyr]

given MM reducers, I have a build in mind that does all its killing/combat activity with nothing but cantrips. More spell levels really just adds to situational diversity for fell drain, but i'd not want to go too far below 3rd or 4th level spells realistically. Fell drain + ray of frost + other metamagics = fun times. Not perfect by any stretch, but it is decidedly amusing twin-chain-felldraining a room of enemies.

[Veyr]

Lots of things immune to energy drain, though...

Anyway, upon thinking about this, I think Tier-3's too high: Tier-3 includes full-casters who do get 9ths, and while the Beguiler's inability to choose spells precludes Tier-1-ness and lack of some super-powered spells prevents even being Tier-2, it still has Time Stop on its list, and competing with that while having no spells above X where X is appreciably under 9 is tough.

Tier-4 might be more interesting a comparison for this exercise. How low can a Cleric or Wizard go and still compete with a Rogue who isn't making heavy use of UMD?

[Zaq]

Well, you say that we can't metamagic spells past level X, but what if we use metamagic cost reducers to get spells that would have an effective level above X, but don't? That changes things a fair bit. Sure, more magic =more better, but a DMM Persist Cleric (for example) with just low-level spells is still credible. While the Incantatrix might not be able to meta Orb of Fire into Orb of Die Because I Say So, Lesser Orb of Fire can still put a nasty dent in someone's day when it's Searing, Maximized, Empowered, Twinned, Repeating, Fell Frightening, Fell Draining, and whatever else you want to stack on.

But of course, that really shows the power of metamagic reduction shenanigans more than it does the usefulness of low-level spells.

[gbprime]

But of course, that really shows the power of metamagic reduction shenanigans than it does the usefulness of low-level spells.

Indeed. The Dweomerkeeper with Arcane Thesis and the Invisible Repeat Sanctum Mage's Lucubration can recover every spell 5th level and lower after every encounter. So just keep cranking out the Twinned Ray of Stupidity, the Searing Spell Scorching Rays, and the Empowered Mass Whelms until you run out of bad guys. :smallamused:

I actually had this very question "how effective can you be without using your higher level spells" come up in my campaign. An archmage found a way (a feat chain) to achieve incredible longevity, and passed it on to one of the PC's. Basicly, you only age a fraction of each day depending on how much of your magic you use. (Use all your spells, you age a day. Use none of your spells, you don't age at all. Work fractions accordingly.)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Lost Empires of Faerun actually has a spell for this type of character concept in which you get to break up higher level slots into lower level ones. Thus, one 9th level spell could become one 4th and one 5th level slot. Combine with War Weaver to put most of those bad boys to use in buffing your comrades and call it a day!:smallbiggrin:

[Veyr]

Lost Empires of Faerun actually has a spell for this type of character concept in which you get to break up higher level slots into lower level ones. Thus, one 9th level spell could become one 4th and one 5th level slot. Combine with War Weaver to put most of those bad boys to use in buffing your comrades and call it a day!:smallbiggrin:
Arcane Manipulation; it's a feat, actually (eh, there might be a spell too for all I know). Yeah, this was my thought too. So as a War Weaver, would you feel comfortable setting X as 5 (the limit on spells in the tapestry)?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My ClericZilla buffbot doesn't use anything over a 4th level spell to make the party pretty much immune to everything...

Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Shield of Faith, Barkskin (plant domain), protection from evil. My allies now have +5 weapons, armor, and shields. They also have a +5 deflection bonus to AC, a +5 to their Natural Armor bonus, and effectively immune to movement-affecting, negative levels, negative energy drain, stat drain, and mind control.

DMM Chain Spell is a lot of fun. Moreso, in my opinion, than DMM Persist Spell.

The Shadowcraft Gnome uses nothing more than a cantrip...

[HalfDragonCube]

My ClericZilla buffbot doesn't use anything over a 4th level spell to make the party pretty much immune to everything...

Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Shield of Faith, Barkskin (plant domain), protection from evil. My allies now have +5 weapons, armor, and shields. They also have a +5 deflection bonus to AC, a +5 to their Natural Armor bonus, and effectively immune to movement-affecting, negative levels, negative energy drain, stat drain, and mind control.

DMM Chain Spell is a lot of fun. Moreso, in my opinion, than DMM Persist Spell.

The Shadowcraft Gnome uses nothing more than a cantrip...

If your ClericZilla buffbot has access to the Plant Domain, then I recommend mentioning Entangle. It is a great battlefield control spell for being first level, and it still works well later on in the game, due to the DCs (either a strength check or an escape artist check) for getting out being set at 20. Great for hindering enemy spellcasters as well.

IIRC, the Shadowcraft Gnome uses a cantrip that gets heightened to ninth level. While it would work will lower level slots, it would have less impact.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If your ClericZilla buffbot has access to the Plant Domain, then I recommend mentioning Entangle. It is a great battlefield control spell for being first level, and it still works well later on in the game, due to the DCs (either a strength check or an escape artist check) for getting out being set at 20. Great for hindering enemy spellcasters as well.

IIRC, the Shadowcraft Gnome uses a cantrip that gets heightened to ninth level. While it would work will lower level slots, it would have less impact.

Sure, battlefield control is nice, but giving everyone an AC around 50ish and immune to most Save or Lose effects is probably more effective in the long run.

[Zaq]

Sure, battlefield control is nice, but giving everyone an AC around 50ish and immune to most Save or Loose effects is probably more effective in the long run.

I think the point is that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Also, "lose" has one o in it.

[Jack_Simth]

Lots of things immune to energy drain, though...

Anyway, upon thinking about this, I think Tier-3's too high: Tier-3 includes full-casters who do get 9ths, and while the Beguiler's inability to choose spells precludes Tier-1-ness and lack of some super-powered spells prevents even being Tier-2, it still has Time Stop on its list, and competing with that while having no spells above X where X is appreciably under 9 is tough.
Sorta.

The Beguiler's inability to cherry-pick spells known on a day-to-day basis excludes tier 1 (the defining difference between Wizards and Sorcerers, likewise Clerics and Favored Souls)

The Beguiler's inability to cherry-pick spells known at all excludes tier-2.

The Beguiler is a very solid tier-3.


Tier-4 might be more interesting a comparison for this exercise. How low can a Cleric or Wizard go and still compete with a Rogue who isn't making heavy use of UMD?

Let's see...

Depending on whether or not high-level spells you never cast can still be prepared, reserve feats can make for a quite viable build. A simple Rogue-3/Wizard-5/Arcane Trickster-10/Unseen Seer-2 gets 9th level Arcane spells, most the rogue tricks, and a decent dose of sneak attack (and can combine with Martial Stance(Assasin's Stance) from the Tome of Battle to get two more sneak attack dice). Tack it onto reserve feats such as Acidic Splatter, and you can be dealing 20d6 most rounds all day long. Which is suitable for tier 3. Especially if you help out a bit with spells like invisibility to aid in getting opening sneak attacks.

Edit:
Oh yes, and of course a Druid doesn't really need spellcasting at all to be viable in a tier 3 or 4 party, thanks to Wildshape and the animal companion.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think the point is that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

True, however it's also more like the icing on the cake. Sure, it's tasty, but it's minor compared to everything else.

[Veyr]

So a few people have echoed 4, and it looks like lower level spells really can do everything you need. Terrifying.


Sorta.

{snip}
Yes, I know, but you're also right that I misspoke. Thanks for correction.


Oh yes, and of course a Druid doesn't really need spellcasting at all to be viable in a tier 3 or 4 party, thanks to Wildshape and the animal companion.
Oh, I know, that's why I said this:

No Druid, since Wild Shape throws things off too much.I suppose I ought to have said Animal Companion and/or Wild Shape throws things off too much, but whatever.

[Zaq]

Yeah, 4ths are where the real money comes in. I bet we could get by with just 3rds, though, if we got really creative.

Oh, and if you want the Druid spell list, just go for the Spirit Shaman. Or intentionally ignore WS and the AC and look only at their spells. The Druid spell list is not to be ignored just because the Druid's other class features are enough to be a powerful character alone.

[Veyr]

Spirit Shaman was exactly what I had in mind for replacing the Druid.