I was wondering...

[Skeith]

If you happened to give a constitution point to a lich does it die...

Like by using a wish spell.

[KillianHawkeye]

No, because that makes no sense. I'm pretty sure it's also impossible. :smallconfused:

[Stormageddon]

Well if you had the spell wish you could just wish the lich away. :smallbiggrin:

[Sacrieur]

What happens when you enchant a Lich to cause con damage? Nothing. Because it doesn't have a con score.

[Greenish]

Undead have Con Ø, not Con 0. You can no more give them a point of Con than you can divide by zero.

[Zaq]

Putting aside the absurdity of it for a minute, why should it kill them?

No, really. This sounds snarky, perhaps, but I'm genuinely curious. Why would you expect a lich to die by being granted a point of CON?

[Allanimal]

Putting aside the absurdity of it for a minute, why should it kill them?

No, really. This sounds snarky, perhaps, but I'm genuinely curious. Why would you expect a lich to die by being granted a point of CON?

Because if it has a CON score, it is no longer undead?
That's the only thing I can come up with...

[Greenish]

Because if it has a CON score, it is no longer undead?Instead of "killing" the lich, that should bring it to life, no?

[Volthawk]

Well, it would weaken the lich, as it now loses 5 hit points per HD it has (from the -5 Con mod). It would also mean that if you did Con damage (not drain), you'd kill it. Of course, this is all if it worked, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

[Kaeso]

Undead have Con Ø, not Con 0. You can no more give them a point of Con than you can divide by zero.

http://www.mathfail.com/divide-by-zero8.jpg
:smallsigh: I just had to, it's like... a law of the internet.

[Yora]

Well if you had the spell wish you could just wish the lich away. :smallbiggrin:


http://www.gnorb.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/morbo.jpg

Wish does not work that way!!!


Read the spells description.

[Amnestic]

Read the spells description.

It can work that way if you use the "produce greater effects" clause at the end. That does depend on your DM not getting creative with interpretations though.

[HalfDragonCube]

It can work that way if you use the "produce greater effects" clause at the end. That does depend on your DM not getting creative with interpretations though.

... It is almost certain the DM will get creative with the interpretation, as the spell description practically says they should.

[Amnestic]

... It is almost certain the DM will get creative with the interpretation, as the spell description practically says they should.

Oh no doubt. Some people might have DMs who don't though, and there will simply be DMs who take their creative interpretations with the Wish to different lengths. The point is that you can Wish Liches away. Just that the definition of "Lich" and "Away" isn't set in stone :smallamused:

[LansXero]

Undead have Con Ø, not Con 0. You can no more give them a point of Con than you can divide by zero.

Not-so-related question: What would happen to a necropolitan who takes Fairy Misteries Initiate? (adds your int mod. to your hp instead of your con mod.)

[Boci]

Not-so-related question: What would happen to a necropolitan who takes Fairy Misteries Initiate? (adds your int mod. to your hp instead of your con mod.)

They would gain int mod to hp for each level, and depending on your DM and other players, you may or may not have to dive for cover as several object are thrown at you.

Also, the feat does say you need a partner...

[MarkusWolfe]

... It is almost certain the DM will get creative with the interpretation, as the spell description practically says they should.

I wish that all the undead on this plane of existence were spontaneously plane shifted to the plane of positive energy and then had a permanent dimensional anchor cast on them.

Let's see you try to get creative with THAT.

[Amnestic]

I wish that all the undead on this plane of existence were spontaneously plane shifted to the plane of positive energy and then had a permanent dimensional anchor cast on them.

Let's see you try to get creative with THAT.

All the undead are sent into an Imprisoning Cell (Manual of the Planes, pg. 84) where they're protected from the positive planar energies. After that it's simply a matter of Wishing their way out, before arraying their armies and not inconsiderable (Demi-)Lich powers against the annoying mortal who thought to get rid of them.

Don't even need to be that creative :smalltongue:

[Volthawk]

I wish that all the undead on this plane of existence were spontaneously plane shifted to the plane of positive energy and then had a permanent dimensional anchor cast on them.

Let's see you try to get creative with THAT.

You didn't say you wouldn't be set on fire. Now you are.

You see, with Wishes, it's not just what you say, but what you don't say.

[Cog]

I wish that all the undead on this plane of existence were spontaneously plane shifted to the plane of positive energy and then had a permanent dimensional anchor cast on them.

Let's see you try to get creative with THAT.

...a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total.

Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

...end ongoing spells...
I can work with that, yeah.

[Malimar]

I wish that all the undead on this plane of existence were spontaneously plane shifted to the plane of positive energy and then had a permanent dimensional anchor cast on them.

Let's see you try to get creative with THAT.


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

It happens to a number of hit dice worth of undead equal to your caster level. Not even the nearest undead to you, either, just a handful of scattered random undead from across the world.

(Although I might also try to work in alternate meanings of "plane", "undead", and possibly "positive".)

[Kylarra]

It is pretty funny that by RAW the PE plane doesn't make undead asplode.

[MarkusWolfe]

I can work with that, yeah.

When an undead creature goes to the plane of positive energy, it starts loosing hitpoints at a rate of 5 per round. Even if this lich escapes, so many undead are going to die in the next couple minutes that I'm going to recover all the exp cost of the wish AND spontaneously gain another level. Hey, guess what? I can cast wish AGAIN!

[Volthawk]

When an undead creature goes to the plane of positive energy, it starts loosing hitpoints at a rate of 5 per round. Even if this lich escapes, so many undead are going to die in the next couple minutes that I'm going to recover all the exp cost of the wish AND spontaneously gain another level. Hey, guess what? I can cast wish AGAIN!

Nope, they don't, funnily enough.


Positive-Dominant
An abundance of life characterizes planes with this trait. The two kinds of positive-dominant traits are minor positive-dominant and major positive-dominant. A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability.

Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it.

See, it doesn't do positive energy healing, but gives fast healing, which doesn't harm undead.

[Zaq]

When an undead creature goes to the plane of positive energy, it starts loosing hitpoints at a rate of 5 per round. Even if this lich escapes, so many undead are going to die in the next couple minutes that I'm going to recover all the exp cost of the wish AND spontaneously gain another level. Hey, guess what? I can cast wish AGAIN!

You'd think that, but really, that's not how the Positive Energy Plane actually works.

Silly? Yes. Unintentionally very funny? Yes. Logical? Hell no. Welcome to D&D.

EDIT: Tell me, Volt, do you prefer Setting Sun or Shadow Hand?

[Cog]

When an undead creature goes to the plane of positive energy, it starts loosing hitpoints at a rate of 5 per round.
Nope. Undead benefit from fast healing just like anybody else.

Edit: Oh, hey, ninjas. I should put more ranks in spot.

[MarkusWolfe]

It is pretty funny that by RAW the PE plane doesn't make undead asplode.

It's more of a disintegration.

[tyckspoon]

When an undead creature goes to the plane of positive energy, it starts loosing hitpoints at a rate of 5 per round. Even if this lich escapes, so many undead are going to die in the next couple minutes that I'm going to recover all the exp cost of the wish AND spontaneously gain another level. Hey, guess what? I can cast wish AGAIN!

Yeah, you'd think that made sense, but no, Undead aren't damaged by positive energy. They're damaged by specific postive-energy-using effects that specifically say 'this hurts Undead as well as healing normal life.' So yes, by actual rules text, what happens when you send undead to the Positive Energy plane is that they start accruing an unlimited amount of temp HP (fluffwise, they should be destroyed, and even if they're not the process is probably terribly painful to them.)

[Cog]

It's more of a disintegration.
Repeating it doesn't make it true.

[Solaris]

You didn't say you wouldn't be set on fire. Now you are.

You see, with Wishes, it's not just what you say, but what you don't say.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, and I sincerely pity any players who attempt to use a wish in your games. It's like you were trying to go for the classic twisted wish, but veered off and wound up with something more along the lines of randomly adding extra problems. That's not how it should work.

[Kylarra]

It's more of a disintegration.It should be, but it isn't. They just end up being infinitely durable (hitpointwise).

[Moriato]

Read the spells description.


•Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.


You could easily wish a lich away with that. Far away.

[Volthawk]

That doesn't even begin to make sense, and I sincerely pity any players who attempt to use a wish in your games. It's like you were trying to go for the classic twisted wish, but veered off and wound up with something more along the lines of randomly adding extra problems. That's not how it should work.

Eh, I wouldn't, just saying that if you try to be all clever with your wording and go past the description, you can be screwed with. That's just the one I've seen before (to be honest, I feel trying to make all these perfectly worded wishes to go past what it initially allows is more trouble than it's worth).

[MarkusWolfe]

And if any of you stopped to think for even a second about WHY you get fast healing/5 (namely, we run on positive energy, it makes our very soul and life force), you would be able to comprehend why undead would take damage on the plane as well (the undead are just as the living, except they use negative energy).

This is one of those situations where the publishers screwed up the RAW and anyone with a brain can see it.

[Kylarra]

I think we're all well aware of what it should be, we're just commenting on amusing RAW.

[Solaris]

And if any of you stopped to think for even a second about WHY you get fast healing/5 (namely, we run on positive energy, it makes our very soul and life force), you would be able to comprehend why undead would take damage on the plane as well (the undead are just as the living, except they use negative energy).

This is one of those situations where the publishers screwed up the RAW and anyone with a brain can see it.

Everyone with a brain can see it. Unfortunately, RAW is RAW. You can't gamble on a DM using your idea of RAI.

[MarkusWolfe]

Everyone with a brain can see it. Unfortunately, RAW is RAW. You can't gamble on a DM using your idea of RAI.

But the DM (presumably) also has a brain.

Then again, he let you get wish. Maybe he doesn't have a brain....

[Cog]

And if any of you stopped to think for even a second about WHY you get fast healing/5 (namely, we run on positive energy, it makes our very soul and life force), you would be able to comprehend why undead would take damage on the plane as well (the undead are just as the living, except they use negative energy).
Okay, I just thought about it for a second.

Positive energy represents the primal forces of creation. The decay that negative-energy creatures must constantly contend with is balanced here, and in that balance a stronger outcome is achieved. Positive-energy creatures instead become highly unbalanced, and go splat.

This is one of those situations where the publishers screwed up the RAW and anyone with a brain can see it.
What I can see, using my brain, is a great story idea. Some sorcerer tries to pull a Familicide like Vaarsuvius did, but because they flubbed their Knowledge: The Planes check they screwed things up worse, and now the undead - unable to get to the plane on their own in large enough numbers, always picked off by the denizens when they went in smaller groups - have been able to take over the place, and now they're sending reinforced minions back to the material plane, so it's left to those heroes around to try and deal with this mess? Nope. There's no potential there.

Then again, he let you get wish. Maybe he doesn't have a brain....
Or maybe if you try to abuse it, he knows how to handle it without even fudging the rules. As we've just displayed.

[MarkusWolfe]

Okay, I just thought about it for a second.

Positive energy represents the primal forces of creation. The decay that negative-energy creatures must constantly contend with is balanced here, and in that balance a stronger outcome is achieved. Positive-energy creatures instead become highly unbalanced, and go splat.

Negative energy strengthens the undead; it does to undead as positive energy does to living beings. The decay seen in undead is due to a combination of mundane means (maggots, wear and tear) and the negative energy holding them together running out, just as the death of a living being is caused equally by mundane wear and tear and the positive energy holding them together running out.

On the material plane, these forces are balanced such that the destruction of both living creatures and undead is usually due to either something important breaking or slow wear and tear as opposed to an abundance or lack of either positive or negative energy. USUALLY.

On the positive energy plane, a living being absorbs positive energy until they explode. On the negative energy plane, they turn to dust.

Undeath being the perversion of nature that it is, undead do not explode when exposed to any amount of negative energy (as there is no limit to how much negative energy they can take built into their essential structure), and can stay on the plane of negative energy indefinitely. However, there is no reason they are not affected by the positive energy plane as the living are affected by the negative plane.

[only1doug]

Oh no doubt. Some people might have DMs who don't though, and there will simply be DMs who take their creative interpretations with the Wish to different lengths. The point is that you can Wish Liches away. Just that the definition of "Lich" and "Away" isn't set in stone :smallamused:

Hmmm.....
The Lich is no longer where it was, it is now 5' further away than before.


I wish that all the undead on this plane of existence were spontaneously plane shifted to the plane of positive energy and then had a permanent dimensional anchor cast on them.

Let's see you try to get creative with THAT.

OK:
1 nearby Undead creature has dimensional anchor cast on it.


Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

This is the closest of wishes normal choices to what you want but it doesn not acheive all your goals, if I was feeling generous I'd allow this option to work for you, but you are wishing for far to much so I'm not going to be that lenient.



Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

this does cover some of what you wanted so lets duplicate a spell that does do part of what you wished for: dimensional anchor.

not what you wanted? tough luck, read the spell description


only a partial fulfillment

[MeeposFire]

Not-so-related question: What would happen to a necropolitan who takes Fairy Misteries Initiate? (adds your int mod. to your hp instead of your con mod.)

Where is that feat from (fairy feat)?

[only1doug]

I think its Dragon Magazine...

Greyhawk Regional feat; Text of feat indicates that the feat needs to be used daily with a partner who also has the feat and who wants to have the same benefit as you.


I googled: Faerie Mysteries Initiate

[nerd-7i+42e]

Actually, to answer the original question, I think the lich would have a constitution score after the spell (he wouldn't be dead, mind you, but he wouldn't be unaffected, either). Here's why: The Sentry Ooze template from Dungeonscape makes oozes non-mindless, and in the ability score section it simply adds 2 to Int, implying that for purposes of buffing ability scores you can just treat Ø as 0. So let's say you cast Bear's Endurance on an undead; that undead now has 4 Con. And if you cast a spell that deals 4 Con damage, it would die. I am so trying this at some point!

[Amnestic]

Where is that feat from (fairy feat)?

According to the X to Y Stat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread, it's from Dragon Magazine #319. Specifically it's a Greyhawk Regional Feat which requires two people to take it and engage in a small 'ritual' which gives you some bonuses until you perform a second ritual to change it. The 'Int to HP' ritual is called Passions and involves a "exuberant sensual act."

[tyckspoon]

I think its Dragon Magazine...

Greyhawk Regional feat; Text of feat indicates that the feat needs to be used daily with a partner who also has the feat and who wants to have the same benefit as you.


I googled: Faerie Mysteries Initiate

It's been a while since I saw the feat itself, but IIRC the benefit lasts until you decide you want a different one, and the Int-to-HP just happens to be the only option that's really worth anything of the three things it can do. So you take the feat, find some other Venerable Grey Elf Wizard who wants to have more than 10 HP, perform your 'act of sensuality', and then never speak of it again because good gods who would want to.

[Moriato]

Actually, to answer the original question, I think the lich would have a constitution score after the spell (he wouldn't be dead, mind you, but he wouldn't be unaffected, either). Here's why: The Sentry Ooze template from Dungeonscape makes oozes non-mindless, and in the ability score section it simply adds 2 to Int, implying that for purposes of buffing ability scores you can just treat Ø as 0.

I completely disagree. That's a template, not a buff. A template actually changes the creature, sometimes so much as completely changing its Type. This template doesn't just increase an ooze's INT score, it gives it an INT score. If you could find a template that gave undead a CON score, then fine, but you can't increase a score that doesn't exist.

[only1doug]

It's been a while since I saw the feat itself, but IIRC the benefit lasts until you decide you want a different one, and the Int-to-HP just happens to be the only option that's really worth anything of the three things it can do. So you take the feat, find some other Venerable Grey Elf Wizard who wants to have more than 10 HP, perform your 'act of sensuality', and then never speak of it again because good gods who would want to.

the page I found with google stated:


Benefits: You and a partner (who also must be a Faerie Mysteries Initiate), practice a 15 minute regimen of cultural rituals that grant you special bonues. Both participants must agree upon the rite to be performed and receive the same bonus. Granted bonuses last until the next time you perform the Faerie Mysteries or until 24 hours have elapsed.

But it is a houserules page for d20 greyhawk and may therefore be different to the Dragon Magazine version (or People who use it for their characters may be conveniently ignoring the daily requirement).

[Kylarra]

But it is a houserules page for d20 greyhawk and may therefore be different to the Dragon Magazine version (or People who use it for their characters may be conveniently ignoring the daily requirement).It's a houserule. The actual text only has the "until next performed" limiter.

[nerd-7i+42e]

I completely disagree. That's a template, not a buff.

If you have a template that only gives +4 to a stat, is it any different than casting a permanent version of the appropriate buff? Unless you're arguing that the fact that it's a racial bonus instead of an enhancement bonus that matters?


A template actually changes the creature, sometimes so much as completely changing its Type. This template doesn't just increase an ooze's INT score, it GIVES it an INT score.

There are two points in the template which address its new mindfulness: the +2 Int, and this:


No longer mindless, a sentry ooze is susceptible to mind-affecting spells and effects. [stuff about bonuses]

The way it's worded suggests that this point is really an afterthought to the fact that Sentry Oozes have Int scores. Otherwise, it would be more along the lines of "Sentry Oozes are no longer mindless. They are susceptible..." Which would mean that the +2 Int is what's doing the heavy lifting — nothing more.


If you could find a template that gave undead a CON score, then fine, but you can't increase a score that doesn't exist.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what you're saying at all. Isn't the Sentry Ooze an analogous case?

[Boci]

If you have a template that only gives +4 to a stat, is it any different than casting a permanent version of the appropriate buff? Unless you're arguing that the fact that it's a racial bonus instead of an enhancement bonus that matters?

There is dispel magic for one, but no dispel template.

[nerd-7i+42e]

There is dispel magic for one, but no dispel template.

What I'm saying is that while the buff is active, is there any difference, aside from the type of bonus, between that spell and a template? Sure, templates are representative of a larger change and have some benefits from this, but mechanically, while they are active, the two are virtually the same.

[Moriato]

If you have a template that only gives +4 to a stat, is it any different than casting a permanent version of the appropriate buff? Unless you're arguing that the fact that it's a racial bonus instead of an enhancement bonus that matters?


Yes, in many ways. A template can't be dispelled, for example. Also that 2 INT that the Ooze gets from the template IS NOT a bonus, it's giving it a score that it did not have before. It's not giving it a +2 bonus to INT, it's granting it an INT score of 2.




Otherwise, it would be more along the lines of "Sentry Oozes are no longer mindless. They are susceptible..."


Originally Posted by Dungeonscape
No longer mindless, a sentry ooze is susceptible to mind-affecting spells and effects. [stuff about bonuses]


I... don't understand your point here. What you said and what Dungeonscape said mean exactly the same thing as far as I can tell.




I'm sorry, but I don't see what you're saying at all. Isn't the Sentry Ooze an analogous case?

Yes, that's my point. In order increase or decrease an Ooze's INT score, you had to first apply a template that gave it an INT score. Just as if you wanted to increase or decrease an undead's CON score, you'd have to do something to give it a CON score first.

Edit: Even if you just gave an undead a CON score, it's still immune to ability damage and drain.

[Boci]

What I'm saying is that while the buff is active, is there any difference, aside from the type of bonus, between that spell and a template? Sure, templates are representative of a larger change and have some benefits from this, but mechanically, while they are active, the two are virtually the same.

Okay, then the difference is that the buff specifically states that it turns - into a positive intiger, whereas the buff does not.

[nerd-7i+42e]

You seem to think the Sentry Ooze template specifically says, "Int 2" under "Abilities." It does not. It says "Int +2." If it were the former, then yes, it would not be relevant. But the fact that a Ø Int with a +2 racial bonus equals 2 Int implies that Ø can be considered 0 for the purpose of bonuses.

[Cog]

Negative energy strengthens the undead; it does to undead as positive energy does to living beings. The decay seen in undead is due to a combination of mundane means (maggots, wear and tear) and the negative energy holding them together running out just as the death of a living being is caused equally by mundane wear and tear and the positive energy holding them together running out.
Since when does negative energy "run out"? Don't undead generally have effectively infinite "life"spans? So, that's another thing not in common.

On the positive energy plane, a living being absorbs positive energy until they explode. On the negative energy plane, they turn to dust.
Yup.

Undeath being the perversion of nature that it is, undead do not explode when exposed to any amount of negative energy (as there is no limit to how much negative energy they can take built into their essential structure), and can stay on the plane of negative energy indefinitely.
Ah, here seems to be where you're assuming something. The negative-aligned traits don't mention undead any more than the positive-aligned ones. Even so... you're saying that living creatures pop under too much positive energy, but undead don't pop under too much negative energy. So assuming their reactions are simply inverted in the other case doesn't follow at all.

However, there is no reason they are not affected by the positive energy plane as the living are affected by the negative plane.
Yes, there is.

The rules.

[Moriato]

You seem to think the Sentry Ooze template specifically says, "Int 2" under "Abilities." It does not. It says "Int +2." If it were the former, then yes, it would not be relevant. But the fact that a Ø Int with a +2 racial bonus equals 2 Int implies that Ø can be considered 0 for the purpose of bonuses.

It's NOT a bonus. If you were to try to cast Fox's cunning on an Ooze, nothing would happen, because it has NO INT SCORE to give a bonus to. Same as if you try to cast Bear's endurance on an undead. It has NO CON SCORE to give a bonus to. The only reason it works on a Sentry Ooze is because the template GAVE it an INT score that it did not have before.

[Boci]

You seem to think the Sentry Ooze template specifically says, "Int 2" under "Abilities." It does not. It says "Int +2." If it were the former, then yes, it would not be relevant. But the fact that a Ø Int with a +2 racial bonus equals 2 Int implies that Ø can be considered 0 for the purpose of bonuses.

It specifically states the ooze becomes intelligent and that it is no longer immune to mind affecting abilities. Foxes cunning has no such clause.

[nerd-7i+42e]

It's NOT a bonus. If you were to try to cast Fox's cunning on an Ooze, nothing would happen, because it has NO INT SCORE to give a bonus to. Same as if you try to cast Bear's endurance on an undead. It has NO CON SCORE to give a bonus to. The only reason it works on a Sentry Ooze is because the template GAVE it an INT score that it did not have before.

What do you mean, it's not a bonus? It's a racial bonus.


It specifically states the ooze becomes intelligent and that it is no longer immune to mind affecting abilities. Foxes cunning has no such clause.

Right, but see one of my previous posts. Dungeonscape's wording implies that the point I quoted is actually an afterthought of the Sentry Ooze's new mindfulness, which presumably was caused by that +2 Int.

[Boci]

Right, but see one of my previous posts. Dungeonscape's wording implies that the point I quoted is actually an afterthought of the Sentry Ooze's new mindfulness, which presumably was caused by that +2 Int.

Out of curiosity, do you think a 2nd level spell should be able to grant sentience to a mindless creature? Just wondering if you are argueing Rules as Written or Rules as Should Be.

[nerd-7i+42e]

Wait, no... I'm wrong. In Libris Mortis, there's a spell Awaken Undead, which does the same thing as the Sentry Ooze template, only for mindless undead. Given that it's a seventh or eighth level spell, I'm going to go out on a whim and say that Sentry Ooze is either an exception or ambiguously written. Probably the latter.

Although you can't deny that that would be such a great trick to pull, if it actually worked. :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

I think it would be in Wishes power to temporarily return a Lich to a living state, but doing so at 1 CON would be pretty abusive (taking away it's undead immunities AND giving it a very low HP score would mean you could 1 shot it fairly easily).

There's a spell, Spark of Life (?) that temporarily takes away an Undead creatures immunities. Maybe let the Wish act like a stronger version of that?

[Cog]

Spark of Life, yeah, and it's only Cleric 3/Druid 4. It does leave them with Con -, and while it takes away that partial fortitude immunity (in addition to other things) it gives them Cha to fortitude for the duration. Sounds like a good starting point to me.

[MarkusWolfe]

Since when does negative energy "run out"? Don't undead generally have effectively infinite "life"spans? So, that's another thing not in common.

The lesser undead will eventually be destroyed by time just like every corpse is, though they last hundreds or thousands of years, even longer if the corpse was well preserved: Skeletons are ground to dust and zombies rot away. We never see this in the greater undead, such as lichs, because the speed of the process is inversely proportional to the power of the undead. By the time the lich has started to decay noticeably, he's already had the time to figured out 57 ways to halt the process.


Ah, here seems to be where you're assuming something. The negative-aligned traits don't mention undead any more than the positive-aligned ones. Even so... you're saying that living creatures pop under too much positive energy, but undead don't pop under too much negative energy. So assuming their reactions are simply inverted in the other case doesn't follow at all.

There are entire cities of lichs and vampires in the negative energy plane, and many more of the lesser undead. Just think about that for a sec. Everything on the plane takes 1d6 negative energy per round. If the undead didn't have a way to not explode after taking in any amount of negative energy (whether it be that they have no limit they can take or that the negative energy just doesn't effect them up to a point), how could the negative plane be crawling with undead?

[hewhosaysfish]

I think it would be in Wishes power to temporarily return a Lich to a living state, but doing so at 1 CON would be pretty abusive (taking away it's undead immunities AND giving it a very low HP score would mean you could 1 shot it fairly easily).

There's a spell, Spark of Life (?) that temporarily takes away an Undead creatures immunities. Maybe let the Wish act like a stronger version of that?

This raises a good point: what would you wish for, for this Wish?

"I wish that that lich will now have a Constitution score", refers to Con score, a part of the rules, a metagame construct.

Something like "I wish that that lich was no longer undead" or "I wish that that lich was vulnerable to poison" could happen but don't have to take the form of granting a Con score.

[Cog]

Just think about that for a sec. Everything on the plane takes 1d6 negative energy per round.
No. Unlike the positive-aligned traits, that detail carries the living creatures note. In this case the difference is even more explicit than in the positive-aligned case, so yet again, the situations are not reversible.

If you're going to keep telling me that I haven't thought about this for a second, please take a second to actually read the trait descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#elementalAndEnergyTraits).

[Greenish]

If you're going to keep telling me that I haven't thought about this for a second, please take a second to actually read the trait descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#elementalAndEnergyTraits).Obviously you shouldn't be reading the silly descriptions. You should be reading his thoughts, for that is the source of ultimate TRUTH. :smallamused:

[MarkusWolfe]

No. Unlike the positive-aligned traits, that detail carries the living creatures note. In this case the difference is even more explicit than in the positive-aligned case, so yet again, the situations are not reversible.

If you're going to keep telling me that I haven't thought about this for a second, please take a second to actually read the trait descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#elementalAndEnergyTraits).

See, you're just proving the point that RAW can be brutally retarded at times.

It had been established well before 3e came out that the only difference between turning a corpse into an undead minion and resurrecting someone is that you used negative energy for the first and positive energy for the second. It was also established that positive energy healed the living and hurt the undead, while negative energy hurt the living and healed the undead. As proven with various spells, negative energy simply does the opposite of whatever positive energy would do.

A living being goes to the plane of positive energy. His body is forcefed with positive energy, which heals him at a rate of 5 points/round. If he stays too long, he explodes.

A living being goes on the plane of negative energy. He takes 1d6 of negative energy and looses a level every time he fails a DC 25 Fort save. If the negative energy kills him directly, then he turns to dust. If the level loss kills him, he becomes a wraith.

Now, I want to hear a detailed explanation (that means something other than 'But the book says HURRR DURRR') as to WHY the undead wouldn't be forcefed positive energy and why they wouldn't take 1d6 of negative energy every round.

[Boci]

Now, I want to hear a detailed explanation (that means something other than 'But the book says HURRR DURRR') as to WHY the undead wouldn't be forcefed positive energy and why they wouldn't take 1d6 of negative energy every round.

Because the positive energy plain grants fast healing, unlike channelled positive energy which restores life energy. Fast healing simply closes wounds, mends craft ribs, ect which benefits undead as well.

[MarkusWolfe]

Fast healing simply closes wounds, mends craft ribs, ect which benefits undead as well.

But fast healing DOESN'T benefit undead. Creatures with natural regeneration or fast healing loose those abilities when they become zombified, and all other cases of fast healing involve positive energy.

[Greenish]

But fast healing DOESN'T benefit undead.Yes it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). Pretty sure there are undead that naturally have Fast Healing.

[Edit]: Say, vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).

[Boci]

But fast healing DOESN'T benefit undead. Creatures with natural regeneration or fast healing loose those abilities when they become zombified, and all other cases of fast healing involve positive energy.

Where does it say that in the rules? And even if an undeadification makes the creature lose their inate fast healing, why would that bar them from recieving a fast healing buff?

[Volthawk]

But fast healing DOESN'T benefit undead. Creatures with natural regeneration or fast healing loose those abilities when they become zombified, and all other cases of fast healing involve positive energy.

Well, Evolved Undead is a template that's for undead. Guess what it gives? That's right, fast healing. So undead can naturally gain fast healing, and do benefit from it.

[MarkusWolfe]

Yes it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). Pretty sure there are undead that naturally have Fast Healing.

[Edit]: Say, vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).

Alright, but we know for a fact that the fast healing you get on the positive energy plane is from being forcefed positive energy. Now, if no one can come up with a reason that an undead would spontaneously start being healed or unaffected by being forcefed positive energy instead of being damaged by it, I think I shall rest my case.

[Boci]

Alright, but we know for a fact that the fast healing you get on the positive energy plane is from being forcefed positive energy. Now, if no one can come up with a reason that an undead would spontaneously start being healed or unaffected by being forcefed positive energy instead of being damaged by it, I think I shall rest my case.

The fast healing from the positive energy plane simply mends damaged flesh and bone, which undead can benefit from. Its not the same as the channeled positive energy employed by clerics.

[Greenish]

The fast healing from the positive energy plane simply mends damaged flesh and bone, which undead can benefit from.Mortal frame is unable to contain that power.

[MarkusWolfe]

The fast healing from the positive energy plane simply mends damaged flesh and bone, which undead can benefit from. Its not the same as the channeled positive energy employed by clerics.

Do you know what the word 'channel' means in this context? Because you keep using it like it has some entirely different meaning,

Furthermore, the flesh and bones of undead are damaged by positive energy. They are repaired by negative energy. We already established that. Did you think that the negative energy healed their souls or something?

[Quietus]

Alright, but we know for a fact that the fast healing you get on the positive energy plane is from being forcefed positive energy. Now, if no one can come up with a reason that an undead would spontaneously start being healed or unaffected by being forcefed positive energy instead of being damaged by it, I think I shall rest my case.

As noted, that positive energy comes in the form of Fast Healing 5. Undead therefore gain HP, as their body knits itself together.

Once they hit their maximum HP, they continue to gain temporary HP as their body is flooded with energy, yes. However, the mortal body is not built for such things, and will eventually die from awesome. Unfortunately for the Wish-er in the OP, Undead are immune to anything involving a Fortitude save - their bodies aren't limited in the same way that living bodies are. Fluff-wise, we can say that this is because the negative energy in their body balances with the positive energy flooding into them, allowing their rotting, shambling corpses to continue shining with awesome despite being past the point at which they should explode.

On the negative energy plane, it makes it quite clear that the 1d6 damage is only applicable against living creatures; Undead are already filled with negative energy, and don't really care about being surrounded by more.

[MarkusWolfe]

As noted, that positive energy comes in the form of Fast Healing 5. Undead therefore gain HP, as their body knits itself together.

Once they hit their maximum HP, they continue to gain temporary HP as their body is flooded with energy, yes. However, the mortal body is not built for such things, and will eventually die from awesome. Unfortunately for the Wish-er in the OP, Undead are immune to anything involving a Fortitude save - their bodies aren't limited in the same way that living bodies are. Fluff-wise, we can say that this is because the negative energy in their body balances with the positive energy flooding into them, allowing their rotting, shambling corpses to continue shining with awesome despite being past the point at which they should explode.

On the negative energy plane, it makes it quite clear that the 1d6 damage is only applicable against living creatures; Undead are already filled with negative energy, and don't really care about being surrounded by more.

But positive energy damages the undead. There is no circumstance, bar the deathless, under which the undead heal from positive energy. Therefore, they take damage.

[Greenish]

Furthermore, the flesh and bones of undead are damaged by positive energy. They are repaired by negative energy.Well, by certain kinds of negative or positive energy. This does not appear to be universal, merely a function of how the energy is channelled.

[Edit]:
But positive energy damages the undead. There is no circumstance, bar the deathless, under which the undead heal from positive energy. Therefore, they take damage.That does not follow.

[Quietus]

But positive energy damages the undead. There is no circumstance, bar the deathless, under which the undead heal from positive energy. Therefore, they take damage.

First, let me say that I do agree that the way the rules are written, they're ridiculous. It results in so many stupid things in the D&D world... but that's neither here nor there.

From a rules perspective, even assuming you're correct, at no point is the fast healing granted from being on the Positive Energy Plane called out as being the result of positive energy. It's a trait of the plane. It doesn't say "Gain fast healing as a result of positive energy flooding blah blah blah". It just says "Anyone on a positive dominant plane gains fast healing". Furthermore, undead can benefit from fast healing just like any other creature, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. On top of this, in a major-positive-dominant plane, undead aren't subject to the explosion factor because it's a fortitude save that doesn't affect objects. A lich will no more explode than a random rock would.

Silly? Absolutely. But that's the rules, like it or not. You're free to houserule all you like in games you run, but arguing that things don't make sense isn't going to get you anywhere here. We know they don't, we just find it amusing to point out the inconsistencies anyway.

[MarkusWolfe]

Well, by certain kinds of negative or positive energy. This does not appear to be universal, merely a function of how the energy is channelled.

Flammable substances will spontaneously combust if they get hot enough, provided there is sufficient oxygen around. Are you going to tell me that I have to channel the heat through fire if I want to light a piece of paper on fire?

To channel means to direct or control the path. Perhaps healing spells that damage undead are like water channeled through a high pressure hose. Well, than the fast healing you get on the positive energy plane is like a continuous enema, a self reloading douche, an unending blood transfusion AND every unmentioned orifice having water poured into it.

Just TRY to tell me that wouldn't harm undead creatures.

[Boci]

Do you know what the word 'channel' means in this context? Because you keep using it like it has some entirely different meaning

I assume that when clerics channel posotive energy, they do so in far higher concentrations than it naturally occurs on the posotive enrgy plne, just like fireball, in the moment it exists, can be hotter than the elemental plane of fire.


To channel means to direct or control the path. Perhaps healing spells that damage undead are like water channeled through a high pressure hose. Well, than the fast healing you get on the positive energy plane is like a continuous enema, a self reloading douche, an unending blood transfusion AND every unmentioned orifice having water poured into it.

More like a lake. Constant and vast, but under no artificial pressure.

[MarkusWolfe]

First, let me say that I do agree that the way the rules are written, they're ridiculous. It results in so many stupid things in the D&D world... but that's neither here nor there.

Silly? Absolutely. But that's the rules, like it or not. You're free to houserule all you like in games you run, but arguing that things don't make sense isn't going to get you anywhere here. We know they don't, we just find it amusing to point out the inconsistencies anyway.

Yes, quite.

I think it might just be a technicality, but one COULD give the undead fast healing with negative energy.

[Quietus]

Just TRY to tell me that wouldn't harm undead creatures.

Okay, then I will : The positive energy plane has only positive effects for undead, granting them fast healing, and in major-positive-dominant zones, unlimited temporary hit points. This is what the rules say. If you have an argument that doesn't involve "Nuh uh, that doesn't make sense!", and can counter the fact that the rules clearly state :

A) All creatures on the Positive Energy Plane gain fast healing, without making an exception for the undead
B) In major-dominant zones, those creatures get temporary hit points after reaching their normal maximum, eventually make a fort save vs. explosion
C) Undead are immune to anything requiring a fort save unless it affects objects

then I'd love to hear it. But until then, you're standing on just as little ground as the person who rails and whines about how when someone rolls a nat 1 they drop their weapon or hit their friend, when critical fumbles aren't pointed out anywhere in the rules.



Yes, quite.

I think it might just be a technicality, but one COULD give the undead fast healing with negative energy.

Actually, to my knowledge, you can't. I'm open to hearing a page reference though.

[Boci]

First, let me say that I do agree that the way the rules are written, they're ridiculous.

I think its a really interesting aspect of the game that the naturally occuring levels of positive energy on the positive energy plane are not concentrated/intense enough to damage undead.

[Quietus]

I think its a really interesting aspect of the game that the naturally occuring levels of positive energy on the positive energy plane are not concentrated/intense enough to damage undead.

And yet, they can make the living explode, in a major dominant area. Wacky, isn't it?

[MarkusWolfe]

I assume that when clerics channel posotive energy, they do so in far higher concentrations than it naturally occurs on the posotive enrgy plne, just like fireball, in the moment it exists, can be hotter than the elemental plane of fire.

Lady, where on the plane of elemental fire have you been, because I think I'd like to go there the next time I go. I'm tired of coming home with my flesh melted off my bones.


More like a lake. Constant and vast, but under no artificial pressure.

More like at the bottom of the sea. Yeah, there's no artificial pressure, but it's still forcing itself into every orifice.

[Volthawk]

And yet, they can make the living explode, in a major dominant area. Wacky, isn't it?

Actually, that kinda makes sense, now I think about it. People explode because they are also positive energy, giving them little protection apart from their own toughness, but the undead's own negative energy counteracts the positive energy, giving them protection from the explosive energy.

[Boci]

And yet, they can make the living explode, in a major dominant area. Wacky, isn't it?

Too much water can kill you if it lowers your salt levels enough, and you cannot survive breathing high levels of oxygen for long, so its not that strange.


Lady, where on the plane of elemental fire have you been, because I think I'd like to go there the next time I go. I'm tired of coming home with my flesh melted off my bones.

How much damage do you thing a creature take per round on the elemental plane of fire? Its 3d10, btw. If you want to go to the elemental plane of fire and not have your flesh melted I recommend avoiding the lava pools, I know the residents enjoy them, but they're immune to fire.


More like at the bottom of the sea. Yeah, there's no artificial pressure, but it's still forcing itself into every orifice.

Actually no, you do not suffer water pressure damage on the elemental plane of water. As long as you can breath in, you're good.

[MarkusWolfe]

[QUOTE=Boci;10806480]Actually no, you do not suffer water pressure damage on the elemental plane of water. As long as you can breath water you can go anywhere.[QUOTE]

Haven't been to the crushing depths, I see.

[Aemoh87]

Undead have Con Ø, not Con 0. You can no more give them a point of Con than you can divide by zero.

We all know there is much to be found in 0/0 though :)

[Boci]

Haven't been to the crushing depths, I see.

Specific location? Well it could exist, but:


But the pressure on the Elemental Plane of Water is no worse than a just few feet underwater in a Material

[Greenish]

Specific location? Well it could existI'm not sure it could, given that the plane of water has subjective directional gravity.

[Boci]

I'm not sure it could, given that the plane of water has subjective directional gravity.

Like that would stop WotC. Besides, it would be a pretty reasonable example of "A wizard did it" handwaving away any RL physics that got in the way.

If its not an existing special location in the plane of water, then by my count that is the third time MarkusWolfe has said "I haven't read the rules, but here is how I think the planes should work".

[Aemoh87]

Like that would stop WotC. Besides, it would be a pretty reasonable example of "A wizard did it" handwaving away any RL physics.

I realize DND isn't the perfect model of physics... but at the same time who would wanna play if you needed a physics background? They sacrificed physics in the Wizards of the Coast courtyard under a blood moon, to the gods of Trading Cards and Profit.

Just be thankful 3.5 has grown old and would not make a good sacrifice, but 4E... that made a most excellent sacrifice with the introduction of Fortune Cards.

[MarkusWolfe]

Like that would stop WotC. Besides, it would be a pretty reasonable example of "A wizard did it" handwaving away any RL physics that got in the way.

If its not an existing special location in the plane of water, then by my count that is the third time MarkusWolfe has said "I haven't read the rules, but here is how I think the planes should work".

Meh. I suppose that if the gravity was consistent in the plane of elemental water, there would be infinite water pressure everywhere because there's infinite water in every direction. Localized gravity would be a necessity to prevent physics from breaking, not to mention that it would be so much harder to have good old fashioned adventuring fun there.

Then again.....

Alright, I know what I'm going to do with this wish. But first, we need someone to make a heroic sacrifice and teleport this lich to the plane of elemental water.

[Cog]

It had been established well before 3e came out...
So not only are you making stuff up when you feel like it, you're also referencing other editions of the game. There's forums right nearby for that. This one's for the 3.5 ruleset.

As proven with various spells, negative energy simply does the opposite of whatever positive energy would do.
Oh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm) really (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm)? Are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/boltOfGlory.htm) sure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) that's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) always (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfFatigue.htm) the (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfExhaustion.htm) case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wavesOfFatigue.htm)?

Now, I want to hear a detailed explanation (that means something other than 'But the book says HURRR DURRR') as to WHY the undead wouldn't be forcefed positive energy and why they wouldn't take 1d6 of negative energy every round.
I did that already (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10798764&postcount=38). You just decided you didn't like it, or something, but it's more consistent with what we're given than what you've been suggesting.

But positive energy damages the undead. There is no circumstance, bar the deathless, under which the undead heal from positive energy. Therefore, they take damage.
Or maybe they don't. There's an option in the middle, sometimes.

First, let me say that I do agree that the way the rules are written, they're ridiculous. It results in so many stupid things in the D&D world... but that's neither here nor there.
Personally, I like the way they're written. Undead are supposed to be different, after all. They're something strange, something uncanny, something deeply unfair to the rules of the universe.

And the rules actually match up with that.

Alas, apparently liking that means I'm brainless. Alright, I'll go back to drooling down the front of my shirt. :smallcool:

Flammable substances will spontaneously combust if they get hot enough, provided there is sufficient oxygen around.
Okay. Set some gunpowder out on a tropical beach. It's hot, right? Therefore it'll explode!

I think it might just be a technicality, but one COULD give the undead fast healing with negative energy.
More houserules? Well, there's a forum for that, too, but it's further away than the 1e/2e one. There's room for such a discussion here, too, but it doesn't really help your argument that we're reading things wrong, if you have to make more changes just to keep your own argument consistent.

[MarkusWolfe]

Okay. Set some gunpowder out on a tropical beach. It's hot, right? Therefore it'll explode!

I'm talking about an oven here, {{scrubbed}}


More houserules? Well, there's a forum for that, too, but it's further away than the 1e/2e one. There's room for such a discussion here, too, but it doesn't really help your argument that we're reading things wrong, if you have to make more changes just to keep your own argument consistent.

I'm not talking house rules. I'm talking about explaining in-universe mechanics. When you give a living creature fast healing with a spell, you use positive energy. When you do the same for an undead, you use negative energy. You do the same stuff with the energy, and by the time you cast such spells you can handle both negative and positive energy without blinking an eye.

[Boci]

Then again.....

Alright, I know what I'm going to do with this wish. But first, we need someone to make a heroic sacrifice and teleport this lich to the plane of elemental water.

What do you have in min?

[Quietus]

I'm not talking house rules. I'm talking about explaining in-universe mechanics. When you give a living creature fast healing with a spell, you use positive energy. When you do the same for an undead, you use negative energy. You do the same stuff with the energy, and by the time you cast such spells you can handle both negative and positive energy without blinking an eye.

Again, I'd like to point out that I can't think of a single spell that gives fast healing strictly to undead. In fact, the only spell that comes to mind that grants fast healing is Vigor and its variants. By suggesting one could use negative energy to give undead fast healing, when there's nothing out there that does such a thing, you're weakening your position. Also, be careful with the name-calling, it isn't likely to go anywhere good.

Really, you're putting forward your belief of how things should work, and saying that's how things are. You need to bring some proof from the rulebooks or an online WotC source if you're going to continue to try and debate this, otherwise you can consider your argument failed.

[MarkusWolfe]

What do you have in min?

Teleport the lich to the elemental plane of water. Then, wish that all of the gravity in the elemental plane of water was aligned in the same direction. Then sit back and and relax as the lich is destroyed by infinite water pressure.

[Cog]

I'm talking about an oven here, (removed to match scrub).
Thank you for the mature reply.

And, sure, you were. You've given no reason to assume that the positive energy plane is more comparable to an oven than a tropical island, though. Perhaps you'd like to explain why it should be considered so, instead of simply flinging insults?

I'm not talking house rules.
You're randomly adding rules that aren't suggested in the rules. The negative-aligned traits specify what happens on the Negative Energy Plane. You're suggesting additional fundamental mechanics. How is that not a houserule?

I'm talking about explaining in-universe mechanics. When you give a living creature fast healing with a spell, you use positive energy. When you do the same for an undead, you use negative energy.
Squares are always rectangles. Rectangles are not always squares. Also, I've included an example of a spell that uses positive energy to - get this - hurt people (by chance, it's the "you" link in that line.)

[Boci]

Teleport the lich to the elemental plane of water. Then, wish that all of the gravity in the elemental plane of water was aligned in the same direction. Then sit back and and relax as the lich is destroyed by infinite water pressure.

My moneys on the DM saying "Nothing happens, the task you requested is incomprehensible vast that the magic is streched thinner then a cantrip, producing no result".

But if he's feeling particularly creative/was looking for an excuse to introduce something radically new, he might roll with it, doing on to describe the inter planar chain reaction of destruction your wish initiated.

Or he could simpy allow it to work flawless, then nerate the next BBEG do the same to your character, hopeing you will be wiser with your next.