Dodge-mobility-spring attack mod: is it balanced?

[classy one]

I was wondering if the following changes to this underwhelming feat would be ok in terms of balance. This feat chain is often needed for PrCs like weapon master and Elocator but is just plain bad, especially since it costs 3 feats and the subsequent feat makes the former useless (ie feat tax). So here are my proposed imProvements.

Dodge: AC bonus scales with level. For every 3HD you gain an extra +1. All else is the same.

Mobility: this is now the old spring attack. You don't provoke AoO when moving into or through a threatened square. The main difference is you can wrap a standard action around a movement rather than an attack action.

Spring attack: you can wrap a full attack around a move action. Basically you get an extra move action each round when full attacking.

This takes 3 feats while pounce is just a one level dip so I think it's about even since this feat chain provides immunity to AoO while moving but no double move. What do you think?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Spring attack: you can wrap a full attack around a move action. Basically you get an extra move action each round when full attacking.


Consider this you can move into range make a full attack then move out of range that is well beyond pounce, there's a feat tree to get a second then third attack after the spring-attack. So no its not balanced.

[T.G. Oskar]

Mobility wouldn't be a bad idea if the bonus to AC applied at all moments after moving. The problem with Mobility is that the bonus only applies against Attacks of Opportunity, which are usually done at your highest attack bonus so if you have lots of stuff to buff it then you're screwed. Expeditious Dodge basically IS what Mobility should have been, except it's a dodge bonus so both would explicitly stack. Two feats for +6 to AC isn't that attractive since you could do better with those slots, but it's not a bad idea either because it would make mobile characters (Monks, Scouts) better in defensive terms.

Spring Attack is a different monster to tackle. The premise is nice (move, attack, move) but the execution is horrible (the difference between charge and Spring Attack is you can move afterwards with SpA at the cost of the attack bonus). In essence, you pay three feats for poor AC, situationally good AC and a benefit to something you could do already. Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz do what you intend to do with SpA but quite strained).

IMO, Spring Attack should be separated from Dodge and Mobility. The latter two are defensive abilities while the third is reasonable being treated as separate; after all, you don't need Dodge and Mobility to get Ride-by Attack or Fly-by Attack. Then, make Spring Attack, Ride-by Attack, Fly-by Attack and Shot on the Run (and probably Mounted Archery?) as if they were the same feat (sorta the same thing as Dodge with Expeditious Dodge/Midnight Dodge/Desert Wind Dodge, Combat Reflexes with Evasive Reflexes or Power Attack with Stone Power; that way, you can choose one of the above and apply Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz to them. Three feats for a "pounce that isn't a pounce" isn't a good idea, furthermore since you can reliably get it through a single feat (one racial feat, one through careful placement of Martial Study, and one Epic feat that shouldn't be Epic), and you still don't treat that as a charge so you can't add stuff like Leap Attack (though Battle Jump is a different monster).

So, in a nutshell: good idea with Dodge, keep Mobility as-is but keep the bonus after moving, and decouple Spring Attack from the feat chain because it wasn't meant to be part of a feat chain at all.

[Frog Dragon]

Consider this you can move into range make a full attack then move out of range that is well beyond pounce, there's a feat tree to get a second then third attack after the spring-attack. So no its not balanced.
This is only true on the assumption that the basic feats don't suck. Most of them do and grant far too little for a resource you're only going to have like 7 of in your whole career.

[Roderick_BR]

Consider this you can move into range make a full attack then move out of range that is well beyond pounce, there's a feat tree to get a second then third attack after the spring-attack. So no its not balanced.
Yeah, what Frog Dragon said.
The OP is just making it more useful. You could say that spring attack is now pounce, or that epic feat that gives it (for the first attack in a combat), just demoted to non-epic with other requisites (something like it was already done in official books. Spellcaster Harrier was turned into Mageslayer, for example). So, I think it's fine.

I'd put dodge's bonus as +1 for every 4 levels, for a total of +5 at 20th level, and mobility granting the same bonus against attacks of mobility caused by movement (stacking with the dodge bonus, for a maximum of +10 in these cases. Compare with the Tumble skill that gives total immunity with a skill check) along the attack in the middle of the movement thing.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yeah, what Frog Dragon said.
The OP is just making it more useful. You could say that spring attack is now pounce, or that epic feat that gives it (for the first attack in a combat), just demoted to non-epic with other requisites (something like it was already done in official books. Spellcaster Harrier was turned into Mageslayer, for example). So, I think it's fine.


Spellcasting Harrier causes caster to Provoke an AoO by casting on the defensive, mageslayer prevents casting on the defensive(and the caster is aware of this). Two very different feats.

From what I saw of his description he can still full-attack and move away from the target, if he meant pounce he should have said so.

[classy one]

Changing dodge to +1 every 4 HD is a good idea. Still subpar, but more useful nonetheless.

Mobility is now just a land based flyby attack, but without flight and provoking AoO. I did consider making the AC bonus more encompassing, but the fact that the original spring attack made mobility obselete, and old spring attack was underutilized (to say the least).

The new spring attack is not a pounce, you aren't charging, just moving at your base movement like the old spring attack. Pounce is for charges, which is double your movement. After 3 feats, spring attack is still inferior to pounce.

Yes, you could take bounding assault and rapid blitz, but they still cost yet more feats, and they have rather high requirements (BAB +12 and +18 respectively). If you really did take all 5 feats, I think you've earned the right to make two extra attacks (that might actually hit).