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Viktyr Gehrig
2011-04-17, 08:16 AM
Crossposted at Paizo and EN World.

I've been a little obsessed with the Dragonfire Adept lately. It's my new favorite class for 3.X, and I wanted to write it up for use in Pathfinder, if ever I'm lucky enough to find a DM who will allow 3.5 material and/or crazy homebrew stuff.

One thing I try to do when converting material over is to combine thematically similar classes, since there's generally more classes than there is conceptual space to house them, and it goes a long way in covering the difference between 3.5 classes and Pathfinder classes. In this case, I've combined the Dragon Shaman with the Dragonfire Adept; I see little need for two firebreathing dragon worshiping base classes, and the Dragonfire Adept is already capable of imitating (or surpassing) everything the Dragon Shaman can do.

I gave the new class everything that the two classes had in common, and then the major features of both classes. The Dragonfire Adept loses Damage Reduction and Dragonkin, which it can regain with the appropriate draconic auras. The Dragon Shaman loses Draconic Adaptation, Touch of Vitality, Energy Immunity, and Commune with Dragon Spirit, most of which can be replaced with invocations.

Touch of Vitality was a sticky issue, because it's the one thing that the Dragonfire Adept couldn't naturally imitate; in the 3.5 rules it was a pumped up versions of Lay on Hands, while in Pathfinder it would be a pale imitation. I was tempted to give them a comparable ability, but I'm already worried about the class being overpowered. I did give it to the dragonfire/divine multicaster Prestige Class, and I'm considering adding it back at the expense of reducing the BAB and HD and limiting the breath weapon to once every 1d4 rounds. Of course... that would turn around and make them eligible for metabreath feats, and leave them with nothing to do on the rounds between breath weapons.

Dragonfire Adept

HD: d8
BAB: Medium
Saves: Good Fort and Will
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, no armor or shield.
Skill Points: 4 + Int mod
Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Fly, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Use Magic Device.

Breath Weapon: As Dragonfire Adept, damage increases by +1d6 every odd level. Length of the breath weapon doubles at 10th level and 20th level.

Invocations: As Dragonfire Adept.

Draconic Aura: As Dragon Shaman, except the Dragonfire Adept starts with only 1 Draconic Aura and learns 1 additional aura at 4th level and every 4th level thereafter.

Dragontouched: As the feat.

Natural Armor: At 2nd level, the Dragonfire Adept's natural armor improves by +1, and another +1 at 6th level and every four levels thereafter.

Bonus Feat: At 4th level and every 4th level thereafter, Dragonfire Adepts may pick a bonus feat from the following list: Any Draconic feat, Draconic Aura, Extra Breath Effect, Extra Invocation, Ability Focus (breath weapon or individual invocation), Skill Focus (any class skill).

Draconic Resolve: At 4th level, Dragonfire Adepts gain a +1 bonus to saving throws versus sleep, paralysis, and fear effects. This bonus improves by +1 at 8th level and every 4th level thereafter.

Apotheosis: At 20th level, the Dragonfire Adept's type changes to dragon. He becomes immune to sleep and paralysis effects. He gains low-light vision and darkvision 60 feet if he does not already possess them. A 20th level Dragonfire Adept does not suffer any penalties for aging.

And now, to make the Dragonfire Adept multiclass friendly, the Prestige Classes. I kept the names Dragonheart Mage and Dragon Shaman because they're evocative, and the classes themselves have similar function to the original classes of those names; the Dragonheart Mage focuses on his breath weapon while the Dragon Shaman focuses on his auras and gains additional healing.

Dragonheart Mage:
Add breath weapon 2d6 and spontaneous 2nd level arcane spells to the prerequisite list; if character has a bloodline it must be Draconic. Reduce Knowledge (arcana) ranks to 5.
The Dragonheart Mage loses Draconic Breath and bonus Draconic feats.
At every level except 1st and 6th, Dragonheart Mage grants +1 caster level in an arcane class and an invocation class.
Dragonfire Adept and Dragonheart Mage levels stack for breath effect prerequisites and Dragonheart Mage grants a breath effect at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level.
Apotheosis at 10th.
Like the Dragon Disciple, levels in Dragonheart Mage stack with levels of Sorcerer for Draconic bloodline abilities.

Dragon Shaman:
Prerequisites: breath weapon, least invocations, 1st level divine, 6 ranks in Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (arcana), speak Draconic.
3/4 BAB
Grants +1 caster level to divine and invocation class each level.
Touch of Vitality: Lay on Hands as Paladin of class level, has no effect on Undead; stacks with Paladin level if any.
Mercy every even level.
Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman levels stack to determine aura effects.
Commune as spell-like with no material component 1/week at 10th.

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-05-12, 04:42 PM
On ENWorld I found this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/pathfinder-rpg-discussion/305521-dragonborn-draconic-feats-prc.html) which led me to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145475) which prompted me to revisit this topic.

I still think combining Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept is the way to go forward, because two dragon-worshiping base classes with breath weapons is overkill.

So, I put together a class which has a breath weapon, invocations, auras, and touch of vitality. All of the other class abilities, from either class, can be replicated through some combination of the above and draconic feats; the poster on ENWorld suggested some "improvements" for the draconic feats that generally needed to be toned down but were otherwise interesting ideas.


Dragon Shaman
HD: d8
BAB: Medium
Saves: Good Fort and Will
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, no armor or shield.

Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Fly, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points: 4 + Int mod

Totem Dragon: As Player's Handbook II. You gain the Draconic Heritage feat associated with your totem dragon and may take draconic feats with a Sorcerer level prerequisite as a Sorcerer of your class level.

Breath Weapon: 1d6 per odd class level, shape and type determined by totem dragon. Fire Breath is a least invocation. Length doubles at 10th level.

Breath Effects: Breath Effects are learned as invocations. 2nd level Breath Effects are least invocations, 5th level Breath Effects are lesser invocations, 10th level Breath Effects are greater invocations, and 15th level Breath Effects are dark invocations.

Invocations: You gain an invocation every even class level plus one invocation per grade based on your totem dragon.

Blackó least: darkness, lesser: plant growth, greater: insect plague, dark: path of shadow
Blueóleast: ventriloquism, lesser: walk unseen, greater: mirage arcana, dark: perilous veil
Brassóleast: scalding gust, lesser tongues, greater: sleep breath, dark: whirlwind
Bronzeóleast: aquatic adaptation, lesser: control water, greater: detect thoughts dark: repulsion breath
Copperóleast: spiderwalk, lesser: slow breath, greater: stone shape, dark: wall of stone
Goldóleast: daylight, lesser: weakening breath, greater: aura of flame, dark: dark foresight
Greenóleast: beguiling influence, lesser: charm, greater: devil's whispers, dark: dominate
Redóleast: treasure seeker, lesser: wall of fire, greater: devil's whispers, dark: instill vulnerability
Silveróleast: breath of the night, lesser: humanoid shape, greater: chilling fog, dark: paralyzing breath
Whiteó least: breath of the night, lesser: sleet storm, greater: chilling fog, dark: wall of ice

If an invocation isn't on the Dragonfire Adept list or your totem dragon list, you can't have it. Walls, swarms, and mind-affecting invocations have a duration of concentration unless otherwise noted in their descriptions, and buffs have a duration of 24 hours. Treasure Seeker grants a +6 bonus to Appraise, Disable Device, and Perception.

Draconic Aura: As Player's Handbook II, except the Dragon Shaman starts with only 1 Draconic Aura and learns 1 additional aura at every odd class level. The Dragon Shaman may select auras from Player's Handbook II or Dragon Magic.

Touch of Vitality: As a Paladin's lay on hands, except it has no effect upon the undead.

Mercy: As a Paladin, except a Dragon Shaman gains one Mercy at 4th level and every even class level thereafter. Minimum level prerequisites still apply.

Apotheosis: At 20th level, the Dragon Shaman becomes immune to sleep and paralysis effects and the energy type associated with his totem dragon. In addition, a 20th level Dragon Shaman no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties he may have already incurred, however, remain in place.

---

Modifications to Draconic feats:

These are already really good feats, so I'm loathe to buff them further, but I want the feats to duplicate the class abilities the Dragon Shaman lost.

Draconic Armor: Grants DR X/magic where X equals one half the number of draconic feats you possess.

Draconic Heritage: Also grants a bonus to the associated skill equal to the number of draconic feats you possess.

Draconic Senses: If you have three or more draconic feats, you gain darkvision 10' per draconic feat. If you have four or more draconic feats, you gain blindsense 5' per draconic feat.

Draconic Claw: If you have four or more draconic feats, you gain an enhancement bonus on claw attacks and damage equal to one half your draconic feats minus one.

Draconic Skin: Your natural armor improves by 1 per two draconic feats you possess.

You may select Draconic Heritage more than once, specifying a different type of dragon each time. Draconic feats which specify an energy type or descriptor based on Draconic Heritage instead apply to the corresponding energy type or descriptor of one type of dragon for which you have Draconic Heritage. You may select these feats more than once, applying them to different dragon types, and they don't stack.

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-05-12, 05:23 PM
Speaking of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145475), I have some (hopefully) constructive criticism if the author is still interested.

Let me preface this by saying that I believe this work is better than what I have come up with on my own.

I think the prerequisites for Dragonfire Theurge should specify at least a 2d6 breath weapon as a class ability, or the class should lose at least three caster levels; an at-will 6d6 breath weapon and greater invocations are worth more than one caster level.

I have problems with the breath weapon ability. It shouldn't improve the breath weapons of characters whose breath weapons already improve based on HD. I also do not think that metabreath feats are balanced for PC usage at all.

I like the idea behind Dragonspell, but there are too many Sorcerer spells that are inappropriate for at-will abilities. It also seems very similar to the Dragonpact ability.

Spell Research is great. Really, really great. But anything else that gets something similar either loses caster levels or was intended to lose caster levels.

The class might benefit from a capstone, but I'll confess to have no idea what such a capstone should be.

---

My concerns regarding spellcasting, breath weapons, and Dragonspell also apply to the Dragonfire Disciple. More so, in the case of Dragonspell, because the Cleric list has far worse spells for unlimited usage.

Blessing of the Draconic Patron ranges from really nice to completely overpowered. The Wisdom bonus from Aasterinian and the multiple energy immunities from Tiamat stand out particularly.

Otherwise, this class is outstanding.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-05-12, 06:35 PM
Yanno, if you strip out the auras from Dragon Shaman, and slap it wholesale onto DFA, that would make a pretty awesome class. After all, Dragon Shaman, by itself, is about as useful as a Marshal/Paladin hybrid. Oh, with a 3/4 bab and lower HD.

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-05-12, 10:45 PM
Yeah. If it's too much, touch of vitality would be the first thing to go. But it's the only thing the original Dragon Shaman could do that the Dragonfire Adept couldn't, so I wanted to preserve it.

Tvtyrant
2011-05-12, 10:51 PM
Yo dawg, I heard you like dragons. So I put some dragon in your dragon so you can dragon while dragoning. :smallcool:

Also I feel that turning into a dragon probably is a bad capstone, since it removes a lot of potential buffs. Could I suggest using the Form of the Dragon ability and making it rounds/activation=con bonus, # of activations=charisma bonus? Then you get to actually fly around as a dragon as your capstone, rather then just being a guy with wings that can't turn huge.

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-05-12, 11:06 PM
Also I feel that turning into a dragon probably is a bad capstone, since it removes a lot of potential buffs.

Yeah, I realized that shortly after posting the first time.


Could I suggest using the Form of the Dragon ability and making it rounds/activation=con bonus, # of activations=charisma bonus? Then you get to actually fly around as a dragon as your capstone, rather then just being a guy with wings that can't turn huge.

I don't know. That doesn't seem like enough of a boost for a capstone, and shapeshifting in general makes my teeth itch. I suppose it's better than Timeless Body and a short list of immunities, though.

I should probably try to come up with some epic feats for this, like the Warlock's.

cavanaht
2012-02-08, 04:02 PM
I love this post. Just started playing Pathfinder and my favorite 3.5 class was the DFA.

Now my only question is "What is the Devil's Whispers invocation?" I cannot seem to find it anywhere.

Thanks!

Cava

magwaaf
2012-06-02, 01:53 PM
On ENWorld I found this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/pathfinder-rpg-discussion/305521-dragonborn-draconic-feats-prc.html) which led me to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145475) which prompted me to revisit this topic.

I still think combining Dragon Shaman and Dragonfire Adept is the way to go forward, because two dragon-worshiping base classes with breath weapons is overkill.

So, I put together a class which has a breath weapon, invocations, auras, and touch of vitality. All of the other class abilities, from either class, can be replicated through some combination of the above and draconic feats; the poster on ENWorld suggested some "improvements" for the draconic feats that generally needed to be toned down but were otherwise interesting ideas.


Dragon Shaman
HD: d8
BAB: Medium
Saves: Good Fort and Will
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, no armor or shield.

Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Fly, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points: 4 + Int mod

Totem Dragon: As Player's Handbook II. You gain the Draconic Heritage feat associated with your totem dragon and may take draconic feats with a Sorcerer level prerequisite as a Sorcerer of your class level.

Breath Weapon: 1d6 per odd class level, shape and type determined by totem dragon. Fire Breath is a least invocation. Length doubles at 10th level.

Breath Effects: Breath Effects are learned as invocations. 2nd level Breath Effects are least invocations, 5th level Breath Effects are lesser invocations, 10th level Breath Effects are greater invocations, and 15th level Breath Effects are dark invocations.

Invocations: You gain an invocation every even class level plus one invocation per grade based on your totem dragon.

Blackó least: darkness, lesser: plant growth, greater: insect plague, dark: path of shadow
Blueóleast: ventriloquism, lesser: walk unseen, greater: mirage arcana, dark: perilous veil
Brassóleast: scalding gust, lesser tongues, greater: sleep breath, dark: whirlwind
Bronzeóleast: aquatic adaptation, lesser: control water, greater: detect thoughts dark: repulsion breath
Copperóleast: spiderwalk, lesser: slow breath, greater: stone shape, dark: wall of stone
Goldóleast: daylight, lesser: weakening breath, greater: aura of flame, dark: dark foresight
Greenóleast: beguiling influence, lesser: charm, greater: devil's whispers, dark: dominate
Redóleast: treasure seeker, lesser: wall of fire, greater: devil's whispers, dark: instill vulnerability
Silveróleast: breath of the night, lesser: humanoid shape, greater: chilling fog, dark: paralyzing breath
Whiteó least: breath of the night, lesser: sleet storm, greater: chilling fog, dark: wall of ice

If an invocation isn't on the Dragonfire Adept list or your totem dragon list, you can't have it. Walls, swarms, and mind-affecting invocations have a duration of concentration unless otherwise noted in their descriptions, and buffs have a duration of 24 hours. Treasure Seeker grants a +6 bonus to Appraise, Disable Device, and Perception.

Draconic Aura: As Player's Handbook II, except the Dragon Shaman starts with only 1 Draconic Aura and learns 1 additional aura at every odd class level. The Dragon Shaman may select auras from Player's Handbook II or Dragon Magic.

Touch of Vitality: As a Paladin's lay on hands, except it has no effect upon the undead.

Mercy: As a Paladin, except a Dragon Shaman gains one Mercy at 4th level and every even class level thereafter. Minimum level prerequisites still apply.

Apotheosis: At 20th level, the Dragon Shaman becomes immune to sleep and paralysis effects and the energy type associated with his totem dragon. In addition, a 20th level Dragon Shaman no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties he may have already incurred, however, remain in place.

---

Modifications to Draconic feats:

These are already really good feats, so I'm loathe to buff them further, but I want the feats to duplicate the class abilities the Dragon Shaman lost.

Draconic Armor: Grants DR X/magic where X equals one half the number of draconic feats you possess.

Draconic Heritage: Also grants a bonus to the associated skill equal to the number of draconic feats you possess.

Draconic Senses: If you have three or more draconic feats, you gain darkvision 10' per draconic feat. If you have four or more draconic feats, you gain blindsense 5' per draconic feat.

Draconic Claw: If you have four or more draconic feats, you gain an enhancement bonus on claw attacks and damage equal to one half your draconic feats minus one.

Draconic Skin: Your natural armor improves by 1 per two draconic feats you possess.

You may select Draconic Heritage more than once, specifying a different type of dragon each time. Draconic feats which specify an energy type or descriptor based on Draconic Heritage instead apply to the corresponding energy type or descriptor of one type of dragon for which you have Draconic Heritage. You may select these feats more than once, applying them to different dragon types, and they don't stack.


this is pretty bad, i have been playing a dragon shaman (modified from 3.5 to pf) for 8 months now and we found a way to balance it fairly well. everyone overdoes it and wants it to be this badass class when its not, it's a support class that has some cool offensive abilities