How good/average is a 32 Int/11 Int Modifer for a level 19 Caster?

[Pika...]

I have not yet played in such high level, but I am fearing this is the standard. Assuming it is an Int caster of course.

What is the average casting stat score/modifier for this (or these) levels?

Is this character average, good, or sub-par?


Many thankies?


PS. Characters this level take FOREVER to make....

[Yora]

I have not much experience with high level characters.

But if you have a group with a good basic grip of the rules and moderate optimization that just plays on as it did since starting at low level, I think that's extremely high.
Starting at Int 16, adding +4 from 16 character levels, and getting the DM to allow you to buy a headband of intellect +6, you'd still have just 26. Maybe throw in a Tome of Intelligence +2 as well.

I'm humble enough to admit I don't know anything about serious optimization, but that's about the maximum I could get when playing a 19th level wizard. :smallbiggrin:

[Pika...]

Tome of Intelligence +6....

....must be such a common route/trick....

[tyckspoon]

Base Int should be between 16 and 20, depending on racial options and point-buy level/luck in rolling. +5 from leveling, +6 item, +5 Inherent makes up another 16 you can expect to get (only 15 for you, since you haven't actually hit 20 yet.) So end-level, you should have an Intelligence between 32 and 36. 32 at 19 is pretty good, because you haven't got that last level-up point yet and you've spent a little more than usual on getting a max-value Tome (they cap at +5, btw, the same as Wishes do; if you've been allowed a +6 one, thank your DM.)

Edit: That's the practical maximum for Int because it's actually pretty hard to raise otherwise without getting into Polymorph Any Object cheese. There aren't a lot of useful templates or races that have a significant Int bonus without also loading you down with excess LA and racial hit dice.

[Pika...]

Base Int should be between 16 and 20, depending on racial options and point-buy level/luck in rolling. +5 from leveling, +6 item, +5 Inherent makes up another 16 you can expect to get (only 15 for you, since you haven't actually hit 20 yet.) So end-level, you should have an Intelligence between 32 and 36. 32 at 19 is pretty good, because you haven't got that last level-up point yet and you've spent a little more than usual on getting a max-value Tome (they cap at +5, btw, the same as Wishes do; if you've been allowed a +6 one, thank your DM.)


So 32 is the low-end, with 36 being the high? And I am a level behind the party.:(

Oh, and sorry. I just double checked. It was a +5 tome. LoL

[Koury]

34 is a number that is good to aim for because that'll get another 9th level spell. Anything more then that (unless you can get in the 40s) is less important.

[Zaq]

I think the highest you can "easily" get (that is, with minimal shenanigans) is 18 base + 2 race + 3 age + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 39. You can safely drop 1, of course, since the difference between 38 and 39 is, well, nothing.

32's certainly respectable, though.

I will mention, however, the by-the-book Tomes and Wishes only give you an inherent bonus of +5, not +6 like you mentioned.

[Taelas]

32 is not low-end; it is merely the lowest number you should aim for. It is still excellent.

It is 36 which gets you an additional 9th level spell, by the way.

[Koury]

It is 36 which gets you an additional 9th level spell, by the way.

Indeed. My bad for not taking two seconds to think about the number before posting. :smallsmile:

I stand by the rest of my post, however.

[Optimator]

32 is quite fine. Consider this for general purposes: 18 base + 5 level + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherent = 34. With an optimal race you can get 36 (or more with more exotic forms) to a stat. 32-36 is great so if you get near this range with any stat consider yourself near the ceiling.

[ffone]

Lesser planetouched Tiefling gets you +2 Int without LA, and without the -2 Con of a gold elf which is terrible for a d4 caster.

There are some other races I think. If allowed, check the dozen or so elemental/terrain based racial variants in SRD UA.

Spellcasting Prodigy feat treats your casting stat for one class as 2 higher for spells/day (and in its older version, all other purposes like DCs).

[NNescio]

Lesser planetouched Tiefling gets you +2 Int without LA, and without the -2 Con of a gold elf which is terrible for a d4 caster.

There are some other races I think. If allowed, check the dozen or so elemental/terrain based racial variants in SRD UA.

Spellcasting Prodigy feat treats your casting stat for one class as 2 higher for spells/day (and in its older version, all other purposes like DCs).

Dragonborn Grey Elf, -2 STR +2 INT, 0LA, loses elven skill bonuses, save bonuses, and racial feats (like weapon proficiency) in exchange for flight or blindsight (or a breath weapon, but that choice is generally considered suboptimal). Still counts as an elf for stuff like class prerequisites (so he can still take racial substitution levels).

That said, it comes with some roleplaying restrictions, and flight/blindsight doesn't come in until higher character levels.

[Aharon]

The arcane caster in Douglas' Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138) had an unbuffed int of 26, buffed int of 34. So 32 is probably ok, unless wish shenanigans are fair game ;)

[Firechanter]

So to sum up, basically your final Int score hinges solely on your 1st level choices: your base score and possible race modifiers. Age is the one option I keep forgetting about since I don't like it, and it seems very munchkiny to me.
As mentioned Spellcasting Prodigy is a "fake" +2 Int (and I didn't even know they nerfed it by removing the spell DC application), and again, this is a 1st level choice.

After that, the path is clearly laid out: +5 level, +5 book, +6 item, end of story.

This pattern applies to pretty much any stat, except Strength which can be pumped in a dozen ways. And possibly certain Con exploits.

[Andion Isurand]

There's also the arctic template (Dragon 306) for +2 Con, -2 cha.

However, I'd consider the Arcane Gnome (from Dragon 291) the one of the better +2 Int races if you don't like the Lesser planetouched (PGtF). Written for 3.0 gnomes, I wouldn't give Arcane Gnomes the +1 to DCs of illusion spells they cast.

Arctic, Dragonborn, Arcane Gnome nets you:
-2 Str, -2 dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

There's also Aleithian Dwarves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a) and Deep Imaskari (-2 Dex, +2 Int)... the latter have the human subtype making them eligible for the Able Learner feat.

[Yora]

So 32 is the low-end, with 36 being the high? And I am a level behind the party.:(
The low end is 20! Do never listen to that forum what a good character should be. More than half of the advice will come from ultra high power optimizers.
:smalltongue: Wouldn't it be correct to call them munchkins?

[NNescio]

The low end is 20! Do never listen to that forum what a good character should be. More than half of the advice will come from ultra high power optimizers.
:smalltongue: Wouldn't it be correct to call them munchkins?

Assume Base INT of 14, +4 from level-ups, and then a +4 Headband of Intellect, that's still an INT of 22.

And that's really, really, unoptimized.

[faceroll]

Deep Riddled Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with +5 levels, +5 tome, has 42 int and +1 LA (buy it off).

Get him a cohort a couple levels lower, with 47 int (identical, but with a +6 item), and use ocular persisted Power Leech (BoVD) on him. That gets you 89 int. Spell and headband don't stack.

Hmm, actually, you could just have a crap ton of simulacra all chaining int drain from each other. For each one, add 40 int to your score. Costs 1000gp and 1000xp for each 40 int you gain.

But you could easily have a couple hundred int by that level. At least get a modifier of +100.

[herceg]

Assume Base INT of 14, +4 from level-ups, and then a +4 Headband of Intellect, that's still an INT of 22.

And that's really, really, unoptimized.

It's not just about that. I for one don't really like this "I have a bauble that makes me smarter" thing. I don't know... somehow I can accept it with physical stats, but... just no. Feels "artifical". You know what I mean?

[faceroll]

You know what I mean?

No, can't say I do.

[Gullintanni]

The low end is 20! Do never listen to that forum what a good character should be. More than half of the advice will come from ultra high power optimizers.
:smalltongue: Wouldn't it be correct to call them munchkins?

That's how high level 3.5 plays. In order to have spell save DC's that any CR appropriate encounter will reasonably fail (50-50 chance) you really shouldn't have less than a 32 in your caster stat.

Consider that at 32 Int, you have a +11 modifier, for a total DC of 30 on a level 9 spell. A Pit Fiend will make this Fort/Reflex Save 9 times out of 20, and 11 times out of 20 on a Will Save. Consider that the Pit Fiend is not a particularly resistant creature. Once Unholy Aura is in play, your caster's chances of success drop off substantially. The Tarrasque, by contrast, makes that DC 30 Fort save on anything but a 1, Reflex Saves on anything but a 1, and Will Saves 10 times out of 20.

32 (stat) is the spellcasting standard, I would think, for a 20th level character.

[Ravens_cry]

The highest I have gotten is 30, for similarly high level charachter. I could have gotten more if I had used age penalties and gotten a higher plus tome, and that is in Pathfinder where the only magic items that grant pluses to stats are enhancement or the aforementioned tomes. But I was a little enchantment based sorceress who had been a human once, but died as a toddler and was reincarnated as a halfling and pretended/thought she was still a child. Been old would not have made sense for how I wanted to play that charachter.

[Jack_Simth]

I have not yet played in such high level, but I am fearing this is the standard. Assuming it is an Int caster of course.

What is the average casting stat score/modifier for this (or these) levels?

Is this character average, good, or sub-par?


Many thankies?


PS. Characters this level take FOREVER to make....

That's moderate/high end without cheddar. If you prioritize Int, base 18 + 6 headband + 5 Tome + 4 Level boosts (4, 8, 12, 16) = 33. There's ways to get it higher, but not by overly much while still being human.

[Analytica]

I like Human Paragon for another +2. Say base 18+4 from levelups +4 from tome+2 from human paragon+6 from headband for 34. Gray elf + elf paragon yields 36.

[Tvtyrant]

Starting 18, VOP 8, Leveling +4, Tome +5, Foxes Cunning +4, Human Paragon +2, DD +2. You get an Int score of 43 and a modifier of +16.

[ericgrau]

16 (starting) + 6 (item) + 4 (levels) + 5 (tome) = 31. Ya I'd say 32 is close to average in core. Add splatbooks, age, race, point buy or a high roll for an 18 or etc. and it's more.

Ya you could actually get away with a 19 int if you pick spells without a save. Int isn't everything. Maybe you want a high con and other cool magic items. Though at level 19 you can probably afford both.

Hmm, the +6 int item is a no brainer, but 137k for a +5 tome or a crazy powerful magic item or two, I dunno. I'd ask, "How many of my spells have saves again?"

[McSmack]

So yeah basically 32 is a fine stat to have at level 19. So don't sweat it.

You're playing a level 19 Int based caster with a decent casting stat. You'll do fine.

[Firechanter]

My aim would be to get an extra 9th level spell - so you either need Int 34 without or 32 with Spellcasting Prodigy. Any more than that is largely wasted effort.

[Taelas]

36 (34 with Spellcasting Prodigy). Just to nitpick (again).

[Firechanter]

Ah yes, I keep mixing that up.

[Lord Vampyre]

I think the highest you can "easily" get (that is, with minimal shenanigans) is 18 base + 2 race + 3 age + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 39. You can safely drop 1, of course, since the difference between 38 and 39 is, well, nothing.

32's certainly respectable, though.

I will mention, however, the by-the-book Tomes and Wishes only give you an inherent bonus of +5, not +6 like you mentioned.

Elf Paragon will net you another +2, and then there are always templates. But then you are losing caster levels to increase your Int score, not always the best route.

[Icewraith]

How on earth do you get a tome with vop without brainwashing your DM?

[Jack_Simth]

How on earth do you get a tome with vop without brainwashing your DM?
Generally by convincing someone to do the Wishes directly for you, rather than using a Tome or manual. Depending on the players, it's often not hard to get the other players to collaborate on it ... if you're pulling your weight.

[Jothki]

Lucky find in a public library?

How exactly would a random librarian be expected to know the difference between a magical self-help book and a mundane one that should just be thrown on a shelf somewhere? I assume the world is probably littered with spent tomes, so every once in a while a charged one probably slips through.

[stainboy]

How on earth do you get a tome with vop without brainwashing your DM?

By whining or rules-lawyering until the DM gives in just to shut you up? Is that brainwashing?

[tyckspoon]

How on earth do you get a tome with vop without brainwashing your DM?

Read the tome before you take the Vow. Once it's been used, it's just a bonus on your character and not a magic item, so it's Vow-compliant. It's also wildly against the spirit of the Vow, but it works mechanically (or you can just get people to Wish for you, although it pretty much requires chain-gating Solars.)

[Koury]

Ah yes, I keep mixing that up.

Only a FOOL would make that mistake!

...

:smallredface:
(Don't read my previous posts in this thread *Jedi hand wave thing*)

[Taelas]

They can use potions given to them by someone else. I can see a DM allowing it on that rationale.

[HalfDragonCube]

I once had a venerable grey elf with int 25 at first level. 18 base +2 for being a grey elf +3 for venerable age +2 as a houserule that elves get +2 int so they actually make good wizards.

Where I play we have a houserule that all races get a total +2 to scores, it makes them more interesting. And races like elves and orcs are less sucky.

[Binks]

It's not just about that. I for one don't really like this "I have a bauble that makes me smarter" thing. I don't know... somehow I can accept it with physical stats, but... just no. Feels "artifical". You know what I mean?

It's a magic smartphone with an unlimited data plan :P. We're talking about functional magic here, how is it more artificial than boosting physical stats?

Also thank you very much for inspiring my next character concept. "Please hold. Your request for healing is important to us. *repeats in elven*"

[NNescio]

It's a magic smartphone with an unlimited data plan :P. We're talking about functional magic here, how is it more artificial than boosting physical stats?

Also thank you very much for inspiring my next character concept. "Please hold. Your request for healing is important to us. *repeats in elven*"

As long as you don't end up with colon tumours. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

16 (starting) + 6 (item) + 4 (levels) + 5 (tome) = 31. Ya I'd say 32 is close to average in core. Add splatbooks, age, race, point buy or a high roll for an 18 or etc. and it's more.

Ya you could actually get away with a 19 int if you pick spells without a save. Int isn't everything. Maybe you want a high con and other cool magic items. Though at level 19 you can probably afford both.

Hmm, the +6 int item is a no brainer, but 137k for a +5 tome or a crazy powerful magic item or two, I dunno. I'd ask, "How many of my spells have saves again?"

I'd aim for 28 anyway. That gives an extra 9th level spell and is 18 (start) + 4 (levels) + 6 (item you can make yourself). Or small tome if you started at less than 18 Int (which if playing point buy should never happen, pure arcane casters are SAD, get the Int).

But the next 9th level bonus spell comes at 36 which requires real effort, but 28 is just too easy for a SAD class with the ability to make items.

DougL