Cheesiest WotC 3.5 supplement?

[gomipile]

Which WotC 3.5 sourcebook outside of core has the most abusable, overpowered material in it? Preferably this would be both overpowered by RAW and RAI.

[hamishspence]

Serpent Kingdoms, with the Sarrukh (the basis of Pun-pun) might be a candidate.

[Yora]

Complete Psionic also has a reputation in this regard.

[gomipile]

Ah. I should have specified non-setting-specific. I am interested in setting specific results as well, but for my purposes a non-setting-specific book would work better.

[gomipile]

Complete Psionic also has a reputation in this regard.

Ah? What stuff in Complete Psionic is particularly overpowered?

[hamishspence]

Quite a few broken D&D things tend to be setting specific though- the Planar Shepherd in Faiths of Eberron, for example, or the Dweomerkeeper in the Complete Divine web enhancement (originally, in Faiths & Pantheons, a Faerun book.)

[Veyr]

Complete Psionic is largely underpowered, but if you want to talk about Psionic exploits, most of them are in or require Complete Psionic. The Expanded Psionics Handbook itself is remarkably short on exploits.


Anyway, the single WotC 3.5 non-setting-specific book with the most overpowered, abusable, exploit-laden material is... the Player's Handbook. There's plenty of broken stuff outside the PHB, but nothing can match it for sheer quantity of broken crap. Three of the Big Five are in the PHB; that's far and away the most of any one book (the Archivist and Artificer being in two separate books). Gate, Wild Shape, Time Stop, Leadership. Even things like Glitterdust and Solid Fog that aren't totally broken but yet set the standard for spellcasting way too high.

But as for a supplement? Uhh... I can't think of any particularly high concentrations of cheese. I mean, PHB2 has the Celerity line, which is awful, but PHB2 is otherwise quite nicely balanced, even bringing in some decent feats for classes that were suffering (and really still are, but the effort is nonetheless appreciated). Frostburn's got Shivering Touch, but only that one spell. Faiths of Eberron (or was it Magic of?) has the Planar Shepherd, but that's pretty much it, IIRC.

So yeah, PHB all the way.

[Darth Stabber]

Complete arcane or divine.
Why?
Wizard, cleric, and druid are all overpowered in core. Hmmmmm, let's give them some brutally overpowered prestige classes, and a flurry of new spells.

Heroes of Horror and Ebberon campaign setting each give us another their 1 class, and HoH adds the rediculously OP tainted scholar prc, but still neither sits on the same level as CArc and CDiv.

[gomipile]

Complete Psionic is largely underpowered, but if you want to talk about Psionic exploits, most of them are in or require Complete Psionic. The Expanded Psionics Handbook itself is remarkably short on exploits.


Anyway, the single WotC 3.5 non-setting-specific book with the most overpowered, abusable, exploit-laden material is... the Player's Handbook. There's plenty of broken stuff outside the PHB, but nothing can match it for sheer quantity of broken crap. Three of the Big Five are in the PHB; that's far and away the most of any one book (the Archivist and Artificer being in two separate books). Gate, Wild Shape, Time Stop, Leadership. Even things like Glitterdust and Solid Fog that aren't totally broken but yet set the standard for spellcasting way too high.

But as for a supplement? Uhh... I can't think of any particularly high concentrations of cheese. I mean, PHB2 has the Celerity line, which is awful, but PHB2 is otherwise quite nicely balanced, even bringing in some decent feats for classes that were suffering (and really still are, but the effort is nonetheless appreciated). Frostburn's got Shivering Touch, but only that one spell. Faiths of Eberron (or was it Magic of?) has the Planar Shepherd, but that's pretty much it, IIRC.

So yeah, PHB all the way.

I know that, which is why I specified outside of core in the OP.

[nyarlathotep]

Which WotC 3.5 sourcebook outside of core has the most abusable, overpowered material in it? Preferably this would be both overpowered by RAW and RAI.

Dang you said outside of core cause I was going to say the PHB 1. Anyways Complete psionic is a mixed batch with some really terribly underpowered things (astral construct nerf), overpowered things (archaic initiate), and some well balanced and designed things (soulbow and ardent).

Setting specific: Serpent Kingdoms (forgotten realms), Faiths of Eberron (eberron obviously and for the Planar Sheperd)

Non-Setting specific: This is hard because the big three (tainted scholar, illithid savant, and beholder mage) are spread out over three books that are otherwise fine. I'd probably go with Races of the Dragon for far too many boosts to kobolds.

[Pokonic]

Serpent Kingdoms, prehapes? You can level citys with the cleric spell Erupt, and the Sarrukh as mentiond before, and prehapes the Petrafolk, with there +10 too Str?

[nedz]

Complete arcane or divine.
Why?
Wizard, cleric, and druid are all overpowered in core. Hmmmmm, let's give them some brutally overpowered prestige classes, and a flurry of new spells.

Heroes of Horror and Ebberon campaign setting each give us another their 1 class, and HoH adds the rediculously OP tainted scholar prc, but still neither sits on the same level as CArc and CDiv.

Complete Mage as well surely ?
But if its spellcasting power you want, then it has to be the Spell Compendium.
OK it does help out lesser casters, Ranger in particular, but it boosts all the Big 5 as well as the T2 classes.

[hamishspence]

There's some cheesy items and spells in BoVD and BoED.

[LOTRfan]

Serpent Kingdoms, prehapes? You can level citys with the cleric spell Erupt, and the Sarrukh as mentiond before, and prehapes the Petrafolk, with there +10 too Str?

Aren't those monsters, anyway?

[Eldan]

Yeah, but Pun-pun works by assuming a Sarrukh's power to give any creature any ability you can think off.

[tyckspoon]

But if its spellcasting power you want, then it has to be the Spell Compendium.
OK it does help out lesser casters, Ranger in particular, but it boosts all the Big 5 as well as the T2 classes.

I'm gonna go with this. It's broadly accepted that spellcasting is the most powerful thing in D&D, so it follows that a book that is nothing but a compilation of spells will have the highest concentration of cheesy effects.. and, well, it's not that far off, considering it's your one-stop-shop for Bite of the Werefoo, Maw of Chaos, (Greater) Ironguard, Superior Resistance, Superior Invisibility, Ray Deflection, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Ice Axe, the Orb spells, Splinterbolt, Kelpstrand, Revivify, Sound Lance, Sonic Snap...

[Darth Stabber]

I'd probably go with Races of the Dragon for far too many boosts to kobolds.
Yeah why did kobolds get all that love? Up until then they were goblins with scales. Also why did they never give goblins that kinda love. I guess since M:tG gives a lot of love to goblins, WotC has decided that one game of them being cool is enough, especially since M:tG has printed like 8 kobolds total. Goblins got 1 cool thing (blues) and then theya are all but ignored, and blues are not as cool as free sorcerer levels.

[Taelas]

Complete Arcane. Thought bottle, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil...

[Darwin]

Complete Champion is worth considering as well, there's a good healthy amount of fresh mozerella to be found in that one.

If I'd have to go for cheesiest outside core my vote goes to Spell Compendium for being more of an enabler to wizard than any other book. Not that they really need it though, but it just adds more stuff to ban for the balance minded DM.

[Ernir]

+1 for the Player's Handbook.

One book that hasn't been mentioned yet is Lost Empires of Faerûn. It's a bit bad when it comes to balance.

[MammonAzrael]

There is one supplement, and only one, that has a high content of broken things than even the original PHB.

The Epic Level Handbook. :smallamused:

Other than that, I'd have to agree with either Complete Arcane or Complete Divine. Arcane gave us the Iot7FV, the 1-level Mindbender PrC, Sublime Chord, Craft Contingent Spell, Persistent Spell, Sanctum Spell, and more. While Divine gave us things like the Divine Crusader, Rainbow Servant, Ur-Priest, and Divine Metamagic.

[Eldan]

The Epic Level Handbook. :smallamused:



Well, yeah. It really has just about nothing useful in it. Casters get more broken stuff, while fighters are allowed to pay a feat for +1 to attack and rogues can pay a feat for a skill bonus!

[Veyr]

Oh, yeah, the ELH goes without saying. 3.5 Epic play is... nigh unplayable, unless people are really consciously avoiding optimization. Epic Spellcasting is more broken than... just about anything else.

[JonestheSpy]

Complete arcane or divine.
Why?
Wizard, cleric, and druid are all overpowered in core. Hmmmmm, let's give them some brutally overpowered prestige classes, and a flurry of new spells.


Second this. Two of the most common cheesefests I've seen bandied about the boards are Crafted Contingencies and the Cleric combo of Divine Metamagic+nightsticks+buff spells. I really can't imagine how a DM who gave a fig for game balance would allow either of these two munchkin-enablers.

[Eldan]

How broken is divine metamagic without sources of bonus turning, really? I mean, Nightsticks aren't in the same book.

Sure, it's still good, but without half a dozen persisted spells, it isn't that bad, is it?

[Tvtyrant]

Not even DMM Persist Shapechange? I think with just that you have won the game...

[Eldan]

Ah, well. Shapechange alone wins you the game already. At that point, it doesn't change much.

[person29]

we actually did win a campaign of dnd...we (the players) were baffled...we thought it was impossible to win at dnd...but we did.....best day ever

[JonestheSpy]

Ah, well. Shapechange alone wins you the game already. At that point, it doesn't change much.

Nope. Shapechange can help you win an encounter. But to be able to change into whatever form will work best against any challenge you meet all day? Insanely broken.

[Veyr]

How broken is divine metamagic without sources of bonus turning, really? I mean, Nightsticks aren't in the same book.

Sure, it's still good, but without half a dozen persisted spells, it isn't that bad, is it?
Ehhh... Extra Spell plus an alternate type of turning can get you a lot of turning attempts to burn on DMM.

[Sacrieur]

Imma have to side with the epic handbook too. The ability to make your own spells is... Munchkin delight.

[Tvtyrant]

Elder Evils; it contains a CR 16 monster that by fluff can kill gods. Different use of cheesy, but it is what it is.

[MeeposFire]

Imma have to side with the epic handbook too. The ability to make your own spells is... Munchkin delight.

Well you could always do that. What the epic stuff lets you do is make a spell that can do anything and all you have to do is make a higher skill check to create it (spell creation before epic has extreme limitations based on what your other spells do and epic spells lack that).

[MammonAzrael]

Elder Evils; it contains a CR 16 monster that by fluff can kill gods. Different use of cheesy, but it is what it is.

True, this is another good one for a singular shot of crazy. Elder Evils also has Apocalypse from the Sky, which is the best Artifact destroyer in the game. Use the Pact Primeval as the material focus, and watch the power of Law take a major blow...one large enough to decide the entire Blood War (in favor of the demons, of course).

[tyckspoon]

Well you could always do that. What the epic stuff lets you do is make a spell that can do anything and all you have to do is make a higher skill check to create it (spell creation before epic has extreme limitations based on what your other spells do and epic spells lack that).

Difference between the inherently munchkin-tastic Epic system and normal spell research: normal spell research says "you can make spells. Go ask your DM about it." The entire thing is at the DM's discretion- what level your spell is, what school, what it does, whether it's even a possible spell to make. Epic Spells give you a RAW system for creating the spells, so you can step your DM through every bit of your unholy abomination, show him that it's all perfectly legal, and use the hammer of text-as-written to try and convince him to let you use it. It's delightfully munchriffic.

[Mordokai]

Elder Evils; it contains a CR 16 monster that by fluff can kill gods. Different use of cheesy, but it is what it is.

Hm, I don't recall that particular monster and I don't have time to go over entire EE... would you be kind enough and point me to the page in question?

[hamishspence]

The spell's from BOVD though.

The BoVD FAQ:

The discussion of corrupt spells on page 78 in the Book
of Vile Darkness says corrupt spells have no material
components. However, the apocalypse from the sky and
evil weather spells are corrupt spells with material
components (an artifact and amethysts, respectively). Are
they supposed to be focuses?

A focus is a material component (just not a material
component that is consumed in the casting of the spell). The
two spell descriptions are correct, page 78 is wrong; however,
the artifact needed for the apocalypse from the sky spell is a
focus and is not consumed when the spell is cast.


Hm, I don't recall that particular monster and I don't have time to go over entire EE... would you be kind enough and point me to the page in question?

Zargon the Returner- from page 144 onward.

[MeeposFire]

Difference between the inherently munchkin-tastic Epic system and normal spell research: normal spell research says "you can make spells. Go ask your DM about it." The entire thing is at the DM's discretion- what level your spell is, what school, what it does, whether it's even a possible spell to make. Epic Spells give you a RAW system for creating the spells, so you can step your DM through every bit of your unholy abomination, show him that it's all perfectly legal, and use the hammer of text-as-written to try and convince him to let you use it. It's delightfully munchriffic.

But where is the true power? The fact it is more quantified in creation (because your DM can still veto anything) or the fact that the spells do not need to be within any sort of power frame? Epic spells can do anything and it does not matter if other spells are not as good as each epic spell stands alone. That is the true power.

[Tvtyrant]

Hm, I don't recall that particular monster and I don't have time to go over entire EE... would you be kind enough and point me to the page in question?

Zarqon, who is basically just a grappler with a few extra abilities thrown on.

[Eldariel]

Nope. Shapechange can help you win an encounter. But to be able to change into whatever form will work best against any challenge you meet all day? Insanely broken.

Shapechange lasts 10 mins/level. You win all encounters a day with ~3 Extended castings, without any Persist shenanigans.

[Tvtyrant]

Shapechange lasts 10 mins/level. You win all encounters a day with ~3 Extended castings, without any Persist shenanigans.

Using up 3 9th level slots takes up the majority of your nines, this takes up one and lasts the entire day. I don't think the resource expenditure is remotely similar.

[nyarlathotep]

True, this is another good one for a singular shot of crazy. Elder Evils also has Apocalypse from the Sky, which is the best Artifact destroyer in the game. Use the Pact Primeval as the material focus, and watch the power of Law take a major blow...one large enough to decide the entire Blood War (in favor of the demons, of course).

That is from the BoVD not EE.

[MeeposFire]

Using up 3 9th level slots takes up the majority of your nines, this takes up one and lasts the entire day. I don't think the resource expenditure is remotely similar.

Well if shapechange is actually win the day just by having it on then it should not matter really if it took 3 or 1 slot to do as you have just won the adventuring day.

[Optimator]

Other than the PHB? Complete CHampion and Frostburn are both very high-powered books. THose are the only two that stick out as far as whole books. THe rest are just isolated incidents.

[hamishspence]

That is from the BoVD not EE.

yes- I think the reason for the confusion was that one of the villains in EE had it.

Oddly, the description of the spell effects on page 21 of EE, gives it a 10 mile radius- whereas in BoVD, it's 10 miles per caster level.

[Yora]

In that case the EE version is probably a 3.5e update. Not that it helps anything. :smallwink:

Zarqon, who is basically just a grappler with a few extra abilities thrown on.

In that case I want to mention THAT DAMN CRAB!!!
It's not a book, but a three monster web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a). But damn, that crab can grapple for CR 3. :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

Well if shapechange is actually win the day just by having it on then it should not matter really if it took 3 or 1 slot to do as you have just won the adventuring day.

True, but we are talking about "cheesiest" and the debate was about wether DMM Persist was really that cheesy with just one spell. Yes you could use all of your slots on it, but it is much cheesier if you only use one. Besides which 3 Shapechanges get you around 9 hours, and with extends gets you 20. So its still actually less then you got for the one slot, and you have to use a greater rod of extend to do it (or waste 3 DMMs on it, at which point wat?)

[Eldariel]

Using up 3 9th level slots takes up the majority of your nines, this takes up one and lasts the entire day. I don't think the resource expenditure is remotely similar.

Well, you do save two feats if you don't use DMM. And like, you can have Pearls of Power or w/e. Expensive, to be sure, but doable; you don't gain all that much with DMM in this question - it's the Shapechange winning you the game, not the DMM simply 'cause some smartass decided Shapechange should last 10 min/level. Yeah, it's cheaper and yeah, it's useful but enough to be among the most broken things in the game? Hardly.

Though there are far more egregious examples of DMM: Persist; they just don't "win the game" quite as hard as Shapechange for obvious reasons. Still, anything with 1 round/level duration is liable to do stupid stuff with DMM: Persist.


So I'd say DMM is safely Totally Stupid Busted for its power to make 1 round/level spells last all day. Frankly, spending 2 feats, 7 turn attempts and a 9th level slot to save 2 9th level slots and a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell seems quite fair.

[Greenish]

Other than the PHB? Complete CHampion and Frostburn are both very high-powered books. THose are the only two that stick out as far as whole books. THe rest are just isolated incidents.Frostburn? What does it have aside from Shivering Touch and Ice Assassin?

[Lyndworm]

There's a feat in there that let's 12th level druids turn into 12-headed Cryo-Hydras. It's... awesome.

[Bakkan]

I agree that Complete Champion has some cheesy stuff. Nevertheless it's one of my favorite Completes.

Another honorable mention goes to Races of Stone, with one of the best LA +0 races in the game (Whisper Gnome), the already-very-powerful Shadowcraft Mage, and the Earth Spell feat that makes the Shadowcraft Mage absolutely insane.

[tyckspoon]

There's a feat in there that let's 12th level druids turn into 12-headed Cryo-Hydras. It's... awesome.

Sure, it's another Nice Thing for Druids that they didn't really need, but I don't think it particularly stands out against the general background of Broken Stuff You Can Do With Shapechanging. By level 15 when you can Wildshape Huge and so turn into a Hydra, Polymorph has been doing it for at least five levels already.

[JonestheSpy]

I wouldn't include the Epic Handbook just because so few campaigns actually reach that level - and if they do, a DM has epic-level challenges to throw back. The CD and CA stuff, on the other hand, can start being abused at a fairly low level.

[Talakeal]

Seriously? Zarqon the returner? That's just bad...

[Tvtyrant]

Seriously? Zarqon the returner? That's just bad...

I actually think he would make for a good CR16 encounter, I just can't see him doing anything that the fluff mentions him doing.

[Tyndmyr]

There is one supplement, and only one, that has a high content of broken things than even the original PHB.

The Epic Level Handbook. :smallamused:


And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen.

No other non-core, non setting-specific book has such a quantity of terrible things in it. Things that are even fairly accessible to players in general.

[Lord Bingo]

Certainly Dragon Magic deserves a spot on this list. It has some grossly overpowered class and racial abilities in it. I had to go for a TPK to save my campaign from it!!!

[MeeposFire]

Certainly Dragon Magic deserves a spot on this list. It has some grossly overpowered class and racial abilities in it. I had to go for a TPK to save my campaign from it!!!

Wait what class ability was this?

[AslanCross]

What's overpowered in Complete Champion?

[tyckspoon]

Certainly Dragon Magic deserves a spot on this list. It has some grossly overpowered class and racial abilities in it. I had to go for a TPK to save my campaign from it!!!

..I'm with Meepo. The only thing I would consider really potentially overpowered in Dragon Magic is Wyrm Wizard's ability to add any spell from any list to a Wizard's spell book, and even that is relatively tame.. you can do it like 3 times over the whole class, and the first four levels of the PrC are only 1/2 caster progression.

[Talakeal]

I actually think he would make for a good CR16 encounter, I just can't see him doing anything that the fluff mentions him doing.

I don't mean the rules, I mean the bad hitchhiker referance.

[Boci]

I actually think he would make for a good CR16 encounter, I just can't see him doing anything that the fluff mentions him doing.

I thought only the avatars were stated and the actual elder evils had "You die" style state blocks.

[Thurbane]

Not sure about mechanically cheesey, but for overall cheese, BoVD takes the cake for me.

"Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain"? Puh-lease...it sounds like something a snickering 13 year old DM would houserule into his game. No offense to 13 year olds intended! :smallbiggrin:

[Talakeal]

I actually think he would make for a good CR16 encounter, I just can't see him doing anything that the fluff mentions him doing.

Sorry, double post.

But while I am here I think BoED is the worst 3-3.5 book. Its interpretation of alighnment is "special" and some of the stuff in their is obviously broken, like the amulet that reflects half the damage you take onto the attacker.

[Tvtyrant]

I thought only the avatars were stated and the actual elder evils had "You die" style state blocks.

The others have avatar in their name, his is just "Zargon the Returner," which indicates it is actually his. The fluff also says it is him, ie the god slaying abomination is in fact CR 16.

Pandorym on the other hand is a Godslayer with some gusto; a tiny fragment of a tiny fragment of the actual creature is CR 25 and the body is an actual sphere of annihilation. No one willingly messes with Pandorym (whose name always reminds me of pandora...)

[Cog]

Pandorym (whose name always reminds me of pandora...)
I very much suspect that's intentional.

[JonestheSpy]

"Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain"? Puh-lease...it sounds like something a snickering 13 year old DM would houserule into his game. No offense to 13 year olds intended! :smallbiggrin:

Good point.

[The_Snark]

What's overpowered in Complete Champion?

Off the top of my head, the wizard alternate class feature that lets you spontaneously cast any divination spell by sacrificing a prepared spell of the same level is pretty bad. Not "any divination spell that is in your spellbook", not even "any divination spell on the wizard spell list"; just any divination spell, period. Even if you houserule it so that they need to know the spell, it's pretty strong, and wizards did not need to be made more versatile.

There's also an alternate class feature for sorcerers that allows them to sacrifice spell slots in order to get (temporary bonuses) to AC and saves equal to their caster level. I'm not sure if this is broken, but I know of no other way to get a +20 resistance bonus to saves.

For melee characters, there's the barbarian alternate class feature that gives pounce—which wouldn't be so terrible, but they give it at level 1, five levels before most barbarians have any use for it. It's like they wanted people to dip into the class for this feature. :smallconfused:

Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion are mentioned in enough optimized builds that they make me a bit suspicious. Imbued Healing (Luck domain) is part of the 1d2 crusader trick, though by itself it isn't broken, so I'm not inclined to blame the book for that.

Lastly, Surge of Fortune is kind of a broken spell. Pair it with a vorpal weapon and you have a recipe for instant death.

There's good stuff in the book, but it definitely has its share of overpowered material.

[Cog]

Off the top of my head, the wizard alternate class feature that lets you spontaneously cast any divination spell by sacrificing a prepared spell of the same level is pretty bad. Not "any divination spell that is in your spellbook", not even "any divination spell on the wizard spell list"; just any divination spell, period. Even if you houserule it so that they need to know the spell, it's pretty strong, and wizards did not need to be made more versatile.
Actually, errata did change this to "spell you know".

[Greenish]

Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion are mentioned in enough optimized builds that they make me a bit suspicious.IMO, they fall into "solid, but not broken" category. Knowledge Devotion is +1-5 to attack and damage for the cost of a feat and the knowledge skill pertaining to the enemy. Travel Devotion is a bit stronger, moving your speed with swift action for a minute, but then again characters most reliant on range and with least other uses for swift actions tend to need some help.

[HunterOfJello]

Player's Handbook


It has spells in it that allow you to Wish for almost anything you want or perform Miracles! There's also the spell Polymorph Any Object, which can turn your character into all sorts of powerful creatures permanently.

Plus, the cheesy book has Druids in it. A class that has full 9th level spellcasting, can turn into crazy strong animal forms all day long, gains a strong animal follower dude who gets more powerful as they level, they have d8 hit die, medium BAB, two good saves, AND can wear leather armor and wooden shields without penalty.

[Aharon]

@ELH
Epic Level Magic requires DM permission the same way researching normal spells does. It's just overpowered if we assume a totally lenient DM.

+1 for PHB.

[Eldan]

The problem is, Epic Spellcasting basically has two modi:

"Oh my god, I just recreated Meteor Storm at a cost of 75 million gold pieces and enough experience to go back down to non-epic levels! So awesome!"

and

"So, I cast Remove Abstract Concept. With my Solar Swarm mitigating, I cast it for free as an immediate action."

[Aharon]

Well, nobody forces you to use a solar swarm for mitigation. Simply limiting mitigation to members of your group makes it a usable thing.

Examples of epic spells that I find reasonable:

Aura of Glory
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 29
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personnal
Area: Caster
Duration: 2 days.
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 261,000 gp, 10,440 xp. Seed: fortify (DC 17). Factor: +15 to ability score (+30 DC), increase duration by 100% (+2). Mitigating factor: 10 minute casting time (-18), range personnal (-2).

This spell grants the caster a +16 enhancement bonus to charisma for 2 days.
By Kyuketsukiouji

Bladeturn
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 30
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minute
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until expended or 24 hours
To Develop: 270,000 gp, 10,800 xp. Seed: Reflect (DC 27). Factor: 100% duration (+2 DC), 5 extra attacks reflected (+20 DC) . Mitigating Factor: increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18 DC), burn 100xp (-1 DC).

While this spell is active, the creature protected automatically turns the first 10 melee attacks he receives back on their source. The reflected attack rebounds on the attacker using the same attack roll. Once the allotted attacks are reflected, the spell expires.
By Kyuketsukiouji

Canabalize Permanent Effect
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 10
Spell Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 Minutes
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cost to Develop: 90000 GP; 2 Days; 3600 XP. Seed: Dispel (19), Fortify (17) Factors: Increase Casting time to 10 minutes (-18), Change From Target to Personal (-2) Limited Scope (ad hoc -6)

This spell Dispells all permanent spells cast by the caster on the caster and returns their Exp cost to her Exp pool to be used as she sees fit (recast at higher levels, make items, level up, ect). Permanent spells not cast by the caster are not affected.
By designatevoid

Daily Armor
Conjuration (Creation) [Force]
Spellcraft DC: 28
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 24 hours (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 252,000 gp; 6 days; 10,080 XP. Seed: armor (DC 14). Factor: +16 additional armor bonus (+32 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 9 minutes (–18 DC)

This spell grants a caster additional armor, providing a +20 bonus to Armor Class. The bonus is an armor bonus. Unlike mundane armor, daily armor provides an intangible protection that entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. Incorporeal creatures can’t bypass the daily armor the way they can ignore normal armor.
By P33KAJ3W

Deific Toughness
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 30
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 10 Minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 20 Hours (D)
Saving Throw: Yes (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 270,000 gp; 6 days; 10,800 XP. Seed: Fortify (DC 17). Factors: increase damage reduction to DR 10/magic (+18 DC), increase damage reduction to DR 10/Epic (+15 DC), increase damage reduction to DR 10/Epic and Adamantine (ad hoc +15 DC). Mitigating Factors: increase casting time by 9 minutes (-18 DC), one additional caster contributing a 9th level spell slot (-17 DC).
By channeling the essence of the gods, the caster can imbue a creature with the toughness common to many powers, granting the target DR 10/Epic and
Adamantine.
By Starmage21

Found here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18832902/?pg=last). There's some 27000000gp Meteor Swarm and Remove Abstract Concept stuff among them, too, but many of them have a reasonable cost-benefit relation.

[Gullintanni]

Well, you do save two feats if you don't use DMM. And like, you can have Pearls of Power or w/e. Expensive, to be sure, but doable; you don't gain all that much with DMM in this question - it's the Shapechange winning you the game, not the DMM simply 'cause some smartass decided Shapechange should last 10 min/level. Yeah, it's cheaper and yeah, it's useful but enough to be among the most broken things in the game? Hardly.

Though there are far more egregious examples of DMM: Persist; they just don't "win the game" quite as hard as Shapechange for obvious reasons. Still, anything with 1 round/level duration is liable to do stupid stuff with DMM: Persist.

So I'd say DMM is safely Totally Stupid Busted for its power to make 1 round/level spells last all day. Frankly, spending 2 feats, 7 turn attempts and a 9th level slot to save 2 9th level slots and a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell seems quite fair.

You know, DMM gets a bad rap for being combined with Persist, but in the context of this debate, the question is which is the single most cheesy sourcebook. Operating in a vacuum, Persistent Spell is in CArc. DMM without CArc is actually pretty reasonable.

Still powerful, no doubt, but far from the same levels of broken. Complete Divine + Core isn't that bad.

[Eldan]

Well, nobody forces you to use a solar swarm for mitigation. Simply limiting mitigation to members of your group makes it a usable thing.

Examples of epic spells that I find reasonable:

Aura of Glory
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 29
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personnal
Area: Caster
Duration: 2 days.
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 261,000 gp, 10,440 xp. Seed: fortify (DC 17). Factor: +15 to ability score (+30 DC), increase duration by 100% (+2). Mitigating factor: 10 minute casting time (-18), range personnal (-2).

This spell grants the caster a +16 enhancement bonus to charisma for 2 days.
By Kyuketsukiouji

Bladeturn
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 30
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minute
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until expended or 24 hours
To Develop: 270,000 gp, 10,800 xp. Seed: Reflect (DC 27). Factor: 100% duration (+2 DC), 5 extra attacks reflected (+20 DC) . Mitigating Factor: increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18 DC), burn 100xp (-1 DC).

While this spell is active, the creature protected automatically turns the first 10 melee attacks he receives back on their source. The reflected attack rebounds on the attacker using the same attack roll. Once the allotted attacks are reflected, the spell expires.
By Kyuketsukiouji

Canabalize Permanent Effect
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 10
Spell Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 Minutes
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cost to Develop: 90000 GP; 2 Days; 3600 XP. Seed: Dispel (19), Fortify (17) Factors: Increase Casting time to 10 minutes (-18), Change From Target to Personal (-2) Limited Scope (ad hoc -6)

This spell Dispells all permanent spells cast by the caster on the caster and returns their Exp cost to her Exp pool to be used as she sees fit (recast at higher levels, make items, level up, ect). Permanent spells not cast by the caster are not affected.
By designatevoid

Daily Armor
Conjuration (Creation) [Force]
Spellcraft DC: 28
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 24 hours (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 252,000 gp; 6 days; 10,080 XP. Seed: armor (DC 14). Factor: +16 additional armor bonus (+32 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 9 minutes (–18 DC)

This spell grants a caster additional armor, providing a +20 bonus to Armor Class. The bonus is an armor bonus. Unlike mundane armor, daily armor provides an intangible protection that entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. Incorporeal creatures can’t bypass the daily armor the way they can ignore normal armor.
By P33KAJ3W

Deific Toughness
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 30
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 10 Minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 20 Hours (D)
Saving Throw: Yes (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 270,000 gp; 6 days; 10,800 XP. Seed: Fortify (DC 17). Factors: increase damage reduction to DR 10/magic (+18 DC), increase damage reduction to DR 10/Epic (+15 DC), increase damage reduction to DR 10/Epic and Adamantine (ad hoc +15 DC). Mitigating Factors: increase casting time by 9 minutes (-18 DC), one additional caster contributing a 9th level spell slot (-17 DC).
By channeling the essence of the gods, the caster can imbue a creature with the toughness common to many powers, granting the target DR 10/Epic and
Adamantine.
By Starmage21

Found here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18832902/?pg=last). There's some 27000000gp Meteor Swarm and Remove Abstract Concept stuff among them, too, but many of them have a reasonable cost-benefit relation.

What I mean is that it's difficult to actually balance the spells in a way that they are both worthwhile and not overpowered. A lot of epic spells just don't look like they are worth the tens of thousands of gold and XP you pay for them. And often, you just don't have twelve weeks to do the research.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Speaking of epic magic... how would you translate the XP costs for developing epic spells into Pathfinder?

[Cog]

I wouldn't.

It's bad enough that 3.5 has those rules.

[Veyr]

Off the top of my head, the wizard alternate class feature that lets you spontaneously cast any divination spell by sacrificing a prepared spell of the same level is pretty bad. Not "any divination spell that is in your spellbook", not even "any divination spell on the wizard spell list"; just any divination spell, period. Even if you houserule it so that they need to know the spell, it's pretty strong, and wizards did not need to be made more versatile.
Spontaneous Divination is bad (though errata got to that point you made about spell lists), but it's really just icing on the cake. If the Wizard was a nice, balanced class, Spontaneous Divination would not be at all broken.


There's also an alternate class feature for sorcerers that allows them to sacrifice spell slots in order to get (temporary bonuses) to AC and saves equal to their caster level. I'm not sure if this is broken, but I know of no other way to get a +20 resistance bonus to saves.
I haven't read it in a while, but as I recall, the duration was too low to be worthwhile.


For melee characters, there's the barbarian alternate class feature that gives pounce—which wouldn't be so terrible, but they give it at level 1, five levels before most barbarians have any use for it. It's like they wanted people to dip into the class for this feature. :smallconfused:
Of course they did — and this is a very good thing. Before Complete Champion, movement + full attack was absurdly difficult to get. And it never should have been: it makes melee boring and unreliable when you can't move more than 5 ft. ever. Is it kind of dumb that everyone has to dip Barbarian or Cleric (see below) for this? Absolutely. But that's more the fault of the rest of 3.5 making those features so ridiculously difficult to gain.


Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion are mentioned in enough optimized builds that they make me a bit suspicious.
Both are solid feats, neither is overpowered. Travel Devotion is actually great for the game for the same reason the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian is — it's access to the ability to move and make a full-attack at a reasonable opportunity cost (in this case, a Cleric dip, which can do amazing things for almost any build). Again, it is dumb that pretty much all basic melee needs to dip either Barbarian or Cleric in order to get this feature, but again, that is a problem with the rest of 3.5, not Complete Champion.

Knowledge Devotion is awesome because it lets you make a scholarly warrior in a reasonable way.


Imbued Healing (Luck domain) is part of the 1d2 crusader trick, though by itself it isn't broken, so I'm not inclined to blame the book for that.
Yeah, there is nothing about that feat that is even all that good, unless you have a very-low-damage-die weapon, and are in that particular Devoted Spirit stance.


Lastly, Surge of Fortune is kind of a broken spell. Pair it with a vorpal weapon and you have a recipe for instant death.
If you didn't actually roll a d20, you can't trigger Vorpal.


There's good stuff in the book, but it definitely has its share of overpowered material.
Ehh... I don't really agree with any of your examples, anyway. Spontaneous Divination is bad because of the way Wizards already exist before the book. The problems with Pounce and Travel Devotion (in that they require dips) is again due to the absurd difficulty of replicating their effects in the rest of 3.5 without them.

[Cog]

If you didn't actually roll a d20, you can't trigger Vorpal.

The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20.
Actually, that one's valid.

[Veyr]

Bluh bluh, I could have sworn Vorpal had some wording in there about having to actually roll the die, but I don't see it, so I guess I was wrong.

I'd personally change Vorpal so that it doesn't work with features like that, rather than the spell. I don't think that getting a single crit-threat is an overpowered use of a spell.

[Cog]

Bluh bluh, I could have sworn Vorpal had some wording in there about having to actually roll the die, but I don't see it, so I guess I was wrong.
Even if it did, Surge of Fortune would apply. If Vorpal triggers on rolling a 20, and the SoF attack doesn't get Vorpal, then you aren't treating the SoF attack as if you rolled a 20.

If you want to change it, you need to put some really strange language in Vorpal; it'd be easier to modify SoF instead. For example, you could say that it only counts for threatening crits.

[Tohron]

Not sure about mechanically cheesey, but for overall cheese, BoVD takes the cake for me.

"Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain"? Puh-lease...it sounds like something a snickering 13 year old DM would houserule into his game. No offense to 13 year olds intended! :smallbiggrin:

Those are actually good for mechanical cheese as well - ambroisia is a substance produced by extreme pleasure, which can be used to offset crafting xp costs (spell xp costs too I think), and there are numerous spells designed for torture.

BoVD in general has a lot of overpowered stuff - Love's pain combined with a fast time plane and/or an at-will item can be used to remotely assasinate anyone, and the Vermin Lord (Druid PRC) has a vermin companion with exponentially scaling HD, and a Hivemind ultimate that has been used to get +infinity bonuses to basically everything.

[GoatBoy]

Drow of the Underdark, for one. A whole book of special rules, and I still doubt you could get anyone to play one of those +2 LA atrocities. Not cheesy because of rules, cheesy because it simply exists.

Unearthed Arcana has a few "what were they THINKING???" moments. The Plane of Water must be some kind of orcish aphrodisiac, because it produces so many Water Orcs. UA is an easy candidate for a blanket ban, but the fact that so much of it is supposed to be balanced in a normal game just boggles my mind.

[nyarlathotep]

Drow of the Underdark, for one. A whole book of special rules, and I still doubt you could get anyone to play one of those +2 LA atrocities. Not cheesy because of rules, cheesy because it simply exists.


But but it makes a sufficiently optimized samurai worth playing. :smallbiggrin:

Poor samurai needing 4 different books to be just barely better at their shtick than a single fighter alt-class and being able to do nothing else while the fighter could be spending his feats on doing that and being a chain-tripper/uber charger/dinosaur tamer.

[nedz]

Certainly Dragon Magic deserves a spot on this list. It has some grossly overpowered class and racial abilities in it. I had to go for a TPK to save my campaign from it!!!

Wait, What! Thats like We had to destroy the village to save it!
How did this happen ?

[Coidzor]

Unearthed Arcana has a few "what were they THINKING???" moments. The Plane of Water must be some kind of orcish aphrodisiac, because it produces so many Water Orcs. UA is an easy candidate for a blanket ban, but the fact that so much of it is supposed to be balanced in a normal game just boggles my mind.

I don't think you're quite grasping what kind of book Unearthed Arcana is and its intended use. :smallconfused: UA is one of those ones where you can't say everything is on anyway because you'd end up contradicting yourself due to the occasionally conflicting alternate rules systems you'd be trying to implement simultaneously.


If you want to change it, you need to put some really strange language in Vorpal; it'd be easier to modify SoF instead. For example, you could say that it only counts for threatening crits.

Well, you could stipulate that a die actually has to physically roll and come up with 20 and things that treat the roll as if it were a 20 don't satisfy it. Of course, this discriminates against dice rolling programs and those who can't physically roll a die, but those are sort of corner cases anyway and should be simple enough to deal with in practice.

[Sacrieur]

But but it makes a sufficiently optimized samurai worth playing. :smallbiggrin:

Poor samurai needing 4 different books to be just barely better at their shtick than a single fighter alt-class and being able to do nothing else while the fighter could be spending his feats on doing that and being a chain-tripper/uber charger/dinosaur tamer.

I wonder if we could get a Truenamer to tier 6...

[Tael]

Unearthed Arcana has a few "what were they THINKING???" moments. The Plane of Water must be some kind of orcish aphrodisiac, because it produces so many Water Orcs. UA is an easy candidate for a blanket ban, but the fact that so much of it is supposed to be balanced in a normal game just boggles my mind.

Uh, you do realize that Unearthed Arcana is book full of optional rules alternatives right? Really, what is so immensely bad in UA that you would flat out ban it. Water Orcs are a little too good, but they're not that bad. They don't even reach top 10 in best races/templates for melee classes.

[Lyndworm]

I wouldn't even say that they're too good. They're better than the orc, sure, but the orc is terrible.

[SurlySeraph]

Drow of the Underdark, for one. A whole book of special rules, and I still doubt you could get anyone to play one of those +2 LA atrocities. Not cheesy because of rules, cheesy because it simply exists.

That's why you waive the LA, or play a drow-only campaign, or use the Lesser Drow variant that's LA +0.


Unearthed Arcana has a few "what were they THINKING???" moments. The Plane of Water must be some kind of orcish aphrodisiac, because it produces so many Water Orcs. UA is an easy candidate for a blanket ban, but the fact that so much of it is supposed to be balanced in a normal game just boggles my mind.

If something's got pretty similar fluff and is mechanically just plain better, people will be inclined to play it more than the mechanically weaker version. Like Dragonwrought Kobolds.

[GoatBoy]

Uh, you do realize that Unearthed Arcana is book full of optional rules alternatives right? Really, what is so immensely bad in UA that you would flat out ban it. Water Orcs are a little too good, but they're not that bad. They don't even reach top 10 in best races/templates for melee classes.

Item Familiar
Domain Wizard
Bloodlines
Flaws

I know these are all optional, but they are presented in such a way that implies they are on par with existing material.

I am quite aware that about half of UA is meant to completely turn the game on its head, but a lot of its material has become fairly standard inclusions in CO. And a lot of it is just fine. But my point is, does anyone pick Water Orc because their character concept involves an otherworldly orc, a "creature of sensation," "flexible and adaptable"? No, they pick it because it has the best stats. (Well, not the best, but +4 str and +2 con for 0 LA... you know.)

[Boci]

But my point is, does anyone pick Water Orc because their character concept involves an otherworldly orc, a "creature of sensation," "flexible and adaptable"? No, they pick it because it has the best stats. (Well, not the best, but +4 str and +2 con for 0 LA... you know.)

A player in my game who by his own admission "minmaxes like a fiend" choose it because he was the son of a dragon spirit and a human villager. And the +4 strength and +2 con.

[Amnestic]

Domain Wizard


Are Domain Wizards really that much stronger than Specialists? :smallconfused: - Not including Focused Specialist since I'm not sure as to the dates for the origination of both class features.

[GoatBoy]

Are Domain Wizards really that much stronger than Specialists? :smallconfused: - Not including Focused Specialist since I'm not sure as to the dates for the origination of both class features.

To quote Treantmonk (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God) on Domain Wizards:

"So basically it is in every way superior to a generalist, and in most ways superior to a specialist. Your DM won't allow this unless he's a moron. If you don't take it when it's allowed - then you're the moron."

[Kuulvheysoon]

Non-setting specific/non-Core, I'd have to go with CAr/CD, with the additional topping of MM2 (including that damned crab and the errata).

I mean, the people who updated it: they didn't even bother changing some of the CRs, let alone the disgrace of the Gem Dragons. (LOTRfan is doing excellent work in his thread, though, slowly updating the CRs).

If we're expanding to setting specific, Faiths of Eberron. And Serpent Kingdoms. Gods yes, Serpent Kingdoms. Not only is it the source of the Sarrukh, but it's also the home of Venomfire.

Also, to the poster who almost got a TPK because of Dragon Magic... How?