Unlimited Healing and how it affects the game

[MeeposFire]

While I was looking at the truenamer last night I was thinking about the effect on the game would be if I made a system that made the lexicon of the mind essentially at will similar to a warlock or DFA. This of course made me think of the healing pwoers. This thought brought me back to a conversation I had on the WotC forums on a 4e power for swordmages that gave an encounter heal that was surgeless. After a long conversation the thought process came to be that unlimited healing was a game changer (since you start every combat fully healed without using resources thus making your adventuring day longer) but it was not a game ender (you traditionally start an encounter with full HP anyway and most optimized groups will tell you that it is a waste to spend actions on healing that is not at the level of heal and better so minor healing at will would not break the game). This was of course a discussion on 4e with a very minor healing power (something like d6 + con mod which is tiny in 4e after just a level or two) but how would it affect 3e if you were a truenamer for example with the ability to use its healing powers at will.

Just so you know this is possible already in 3e. One example is the binder class that can heal your party completely between every fight but it would be near useless to heal during a fight. Combine that with a halfling picking up dragonmark of healing powers you could have unlimited healing with restoration, revivify, and heal spell capabilities (for the encounter itself).

[Flickerdart]

Unlimited healing is easy - buy a Wand of Lesser Vigor, a wand of CLW, use the Dread Necromancer's Charnel Touch or the Shadow Sun Ninja's first level ability with Tomb Tainted Soul...not a problem. Since you're not going to heal back any spell slots, healing doesn't make a very significant impact on the game. If this rubs a DM the wrong way, they're free to use monsters that cause conditions (such as fatigued or shaken) that make a more meaningful contribution to PC fragility while being harder to remove.

[MeeposFire]

Well wands would not be unlimited healing (they do cost charges) and in fact one nice consequence about people with unlimited healing is that people can stop buying them to heal themselves outside of their spell slots.

Of course the question is how much healing is too much healing at will. Essentially how much healing is enough that having it used in combat becomes useful (unlimited heal spells before epic would probably qualify).

For instance fast heal 20 for 5 rounds at will is that too much (realizing you can only have one of that out at once)? I would doubt it but it would be good to know.

[Jack_Simth]

Unlimited healing is easy - buy a Wand of Lesser Vigor, a wand of CLW, use the Dread Necromancer's Charnel Touch or the Shadow Sun Ninja's first level ability with Tomb Tainted Soul...not a problem. Since you're not going to heal back any spell slots, healing doesn't make a very significant impact on the game. If this rubs a DM the wrong way, they're free to use monsters that cause conditions (such as fatigued or shaken) that make a more meaningful contribution to PC fragility while being harder to remove.
Pretty much. It changes the game slightly (classes that are primarily at-will, such as the Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Warlock, et cetera) and are only really limited by their HP pool are now slightly stronger... but only in that they can go at it all day. The power houses of the game (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, et cetera) are still limited by their per-day spell slots.

[Veyr]

Wands of Lesser Vigor or Cure Light Wounds cost so little that they might as well be free.

[Aemoh87]

It is neither good nor bad. Usually these unlimited heals are weak enough where they are outside of combat only and require an investment from the character. The halfling with the dragon mark is concerning though. But we all know wand of vigor and the work it does during the down time.

Just remember how long it takes the wand to heal high level characters, if you wanna ambush them during this time go for it. Don't do it every time just to stifle the wand but it is good to do at least once.

Also I know this isn't the 4E thread but don't allow encounters to reset without a new encounter.

But no matter how they heal on the down time it does stop you from having large gauntlet-esque series of encounters. If you want to be an evil DM (much like myself) I keep track of wand charges and throw the gauntlet at them during a time of vulnerability, aka when they aren't carrying enough charges to heal up more than once.

On paper the wand looks great, but once you have it in practice you realize how far it will go.

[Moriato]

I don't think it would make much of a difference at all. Hit points are not your only party resource, or even your most important one. It's already quite easy to get nearly unlimited out-of-battle healing, as others have mentioned.

[MeeposFire]

So how much is too much at once? That is the one question I have a hard time with. I know heal would be too much pre epic but outside of that I am not sure.

[Aemoh87]

the key is keep infinite heals outside of combat. And ideally make them slow like wand of l. vigor. You can't heal while things are chasing you or in any other scenario when time is a factor, which makes it A-Okay in my book.

[MeeposFire]

So my opinion that fast heal 20 for 5 rounds would not be a problem at high levels would be correct?

[Veyr]

The Cure Wounds line of spells are all pretty much too little to be used in combat at the levels that a Cleric gets them, and thus could reasonably be given as out-of-combat healing abilities. Figure that on average, a tank has ten times his HD in HP (less at lower levels and more at higher levels, but for a linear function it seems reasonable), then work out how long it should take to fully heal him, I'd think.

[Moriato]

So how much is too much at once? That is the one question I have a hard time with. I know heal would be too much pre epic but outside of that I am not sure.

That really depends entirely on your level. For example infinite cure light wounds at level 1 would be rather powerful even in battle, but at level 5 it probably wouldn't be worth your time to bother with it except for in downtime. If I wanted to give players unlimited out of battle healing, I'd simply give them something that grants fast healing 1, or something with unlimited uses of cure minor wounds.

[MeeposFire]

That really depends entirely on your level. For example infinite cure light wounds at level 1 would be rather powerful even in battle, but at level 5 it probably wouldn't be worth your time to bother with it except for in downtime. If I wanted to give players unlimited out of battle healing, I'd simply give them something that grants fast healing 1, or something with unlimited uses of cure minor wounds.

Well to be honest this conversation was brought up in regards to my thoughts on a truenamer with at will use of the lexicon of the mind so you would have to look at those healing powers to answer my question.

[Veyr]

CLW is not worth casting in combat, not even at level 1, unless you are truly desperate, IMO.

[Jack_Simth]

So how much is too much at once? That is the one question I have a hard time with. I know heal would be too much pre epic but outside of that I am not sure.
"How much is too much at once" is actually relatively simple to answer:

Too much at once is the amount needed to neutralize a good portion of the effects of a normal opponent's attack.

Which is to say, at 1st level, it's probably a bad idea if the healing can fix up half of a normal hit from a Greatsword weilding Fighter-1 (half of 2d6+3), but 1 hp per standard action (Cure Minor Wounds) is fine.

[MeeposFire]

So at higher levels (17+) if you could heal with a swift action that gives you fast healing 20 for 5 rounds (that you cannot use again until the 5 rounds end which also prohibits you from using your most damaging direct attack power) then that would be OK at this point?

[Jack_Simth]

So at higher levels (17+) if you could heal with a swift action that gives you fast healing 20 for 5 rounds (that you cannot use again until the 5 rounds end which also prohibits you from using your most damaging direct attack power) then that would be OK at this point?
Depends on how good the healing guy is at avoiding damage. If AC, saves, miss chances, and other defenses are stacked enough that over the course of five rounds he's not likely to take more than 100 damage or so, that healing is too high. If defenses are low enough that he's liable to take three or four hundred points of damage in that time, then that level of healing isn't a problem.

AKA, it depends on the optimization level of the character. If his self-healing is more than about 25% of his expected 'getting hurt' rate, then his self-healing is too high.

Make sense?

[navar100]

I disagree casting Cure Wounds in combat is a waste. It's not always the best option but not never either. Healing a party member in combat could mean preventing that party member from going down which makes a difference. It doesn't matter if the amount of healing is less than the damage to be taken. What matters is if the amount of healing + the hit points the beneficiary still had is more than the damage to be taken.

A cleric will not have an I Win The Combat spell every combat all the time that he could have used instead of Cure Wounds. Not every cleric can swing his mace in combat and save the day. Keeping another party member alive so that he can do something to save the day is a smart thing to do.

[Lateral]

You know, I can't find anything that says you must sleep during the night if you don't have to recover spell slots. The only reasons you would would be to refresh per-day abilities, rest after walking to avoid forced marches, and to heal naturally. If a party had, say 3 martial adepts and one Dread Necromancer 1/ Martial Adept class X that all take Tomb-Tainted Soul, they'd basically be able to keep going forever barring the death of someone in the party.

Of course, since rest time is usually glossed over, it really doesn't matter.

[awa]

keep in mind a cure light wounds may be enough to put a unconscious character back in the fight which is not a bad use of a single action in most cases.

Also a custom magic item of cure light wounds at will cost less then a +1 weapon. an item of cure minor costs even less

[Flickerdart]

keep in mind a cure light wounds may be enough to put a unconscious character back in the fight which is not a bad use of a single action in most cases.

Also a custom magic item of cure light wounds at will cost less then a +1 weapon. an item of cure minor costs even less
Except when someone riding on CLW HP gets hit, they're probably going to die rather than just fall back into unconsciousness. Sometimes it's better to stay down.

[JonestheSpy]

In my opinion, the easy access to healing in a "standard" game is one of the reasons why I prefer the low-magic style (which in my campaign mostly means limiting the availability of magic items, not nerfing caster abilities). Players actually have to behave with some thought and planning when they can't just assume they'll be completely healed after every encounter, and contrary to the assumptions of common wisdom I find it does impact the caster classes quite a lot.

Clerics (and bards and druids) actually have to reserve spells for healing the party instead of going all Clericzilla, and the D4 hit points per level of the arcane casters actually becomes relevant - especially if they can't drop by MagicMart and pick up a powerfully Con-boosting item as soon as they have the cash; they'll have to use more defensive spells or non-optimization friendly spells like Vampire Touch to stay alive.

In other words, without tons o' healing magic, the game starts looking much more like RAI instead of RAW. No, of course it doesn't fix all the many and varied problems, but it helps.

[Boci]

In other words, without tons o' healing magic, the game starts looking much more like RAI instead of RAW. No, of course it doesn't fix all the many and varied problems, but it helps.

Not too sure about that. Surely batman wizards and lockdown fighters are even more valuable when the consequences of a monster's hit last longer.

[Aemoh87]

You know, I can't find anything that says you must sleep during the night if you don't have to recover spell slots. The only reasons you would would be to refresh per-day abilities, rest after walking to avoid forced marches, and to heal naturally. If a party had, say 3 martial adepts and one Dread Necromancer 1/ Martial Adept class X that all take Tomb-Tainted Soul, they'd basically be able to keep going forever barring the death of someone in the party.

Of course, since rest time is usually glossed over, it really doesn't matter.

Arcane casters do need to rest. But removing fatigue is easy, there are plenty of parties that never rest or only rest to reset arcane spells.

[Koury]

You know, I can't find anything that says you must sleep during the night if you don't have to recover spell slots.

I'm pretty sure you don't need to sleep ever. Sleep isn't a requirement for regaining spells, after all. :smallbiggrin:

[Aemoh87]

I'm pretty sure you don't need to sleep ever. Sleep isn't a requirement for regaining spells, after all. :smallbiggrin:

Arcane casters need rest.

"Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must have a clear mind.
To clear her mind she must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does
not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must
refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation,
or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during
the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1
hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her
mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately
prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need
to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm
before preparing any spells. For example, elf wizards need 8 hours of
rest to clear their minds. Thus, an elf wizard could trance for 4 hours
and rest for 4 hours, then prepare spells." ~ P. 178 PHB

[Koury]

And? Resting does not require sleeping (though sleeping IS resting).

[Aemoh87]

See my edited post above to see what rest consist of.

Yeah you don't have to sleep but you really can't do anything else. Not even movement or talking.

[Tyndmyr]

Between combat healing is fairly easy to achieve. It's not normally terrifically expensive.

It definitely makes the arcane casters the most resource-limited, in general. Sure, the melee guys may have certain items and things with x/day uses, but in general, they can keep ticking almost indefinitely.

[Koury]

"Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must have a clear mind.
To clear her mind she must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does
not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must
refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation,
or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during
the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1
hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her
mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately
prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need
to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm
before preparing any spells. For example, elf wizards need 8 hours of
rest to clear their minds. Thus, an elf wizard could trance for 4 hours
and rest for 4 hours, then prepare spells." ~ P. 178 PHB

I bolded the part relevent to my claim.

EDIT: Quit ninja-editing me. :smallbiggrin:

[JonestheSpy]

Not too sure about that. Surely batman wizards and lockdown fighters are even more valuable when the consequences of a monster's hit last longer.

Well, I specifically said it's only goes part of the way towards nudging the game toward RAI. Anyway, there are still going to be plenty of times when locking down etc won't carry the day - flock of gargoyles, anyone?- and players are still going to be taking damage no matter what.

[Aemoh87]

Either way. You really cannot do anything. Not even listen checks, which is pretty evil if you think about it.

Also I think low/mid magic leads to more economic healing as the cleric needs to use his low level spells for heals and only blow a high level heal when absolutely necessary.

[awa]

you can take listen checks at a -10 penalty i believe.

[Koury]

Well, I specifically said it's only goes part of the way towards nudging the game toward RAI. Anyway, there are still going to be plenty of times when locking down etc won't carry the day - flock of gargoyles, anyone?- and players are still going to be taking damage no matter what.

Wouldn't a basic chain-tripper work just fine against a flock of gargoyles?

[tyckspoon]

Wouldn't a basic chain-tripper work just fine against a flock of gargoyles?

It's got some issues with flying creatures; it's all well to check them in midair, but all that means is they fall down next to you and/or directly on top of your head. Much easier to control creatures that only move on flat ground.

[Flickerdart]

You can always take a 5ft step to avoid falling gargoyles. Unless it's an AoO, I suppose, but there's a feat for that too.

[Koury]

They should be 10 ft from you, I thought, and don't have reach. Wouldn't they fly into your area, get knocked down and potentially spend there standard standing from prone?

I'm actually asking too, as I'm not well versed in tripping flyers.

[137beth]

Unlimited out-of-battle healing matters less and less as you level up. At high levels, spells are the only resource which can deplete slowly, as health tends to go either very quickly or not at all. So at level 15, unlimited cure minor wounds wouldn't really matter.

[awa]

that depends on your optimization lower op games do hp damage and its rarely all or nothing. Having or not having at will healing would be a big deal particularly if your playstyle involves lots of little fights that grind you down over a day.

[JonestheSpy]

Wouldn't a basic chain-tripper work just fine against a flock of gargoyles?

Well, in addition to the problems of "tripping" a flying creature, I said "flock" for a reason. You immobilize one, but there's several more diving down on you.

[Koury]

Well, in addition to the problems of "tripping" a flying creature, I said "flock" for a reason. You immobilize one, but there's several more diving down on you.

Is triping a flyer a problem? (Again, actually asking.)

And as for the flock, if you manage to lock down three of em (~16 dex doesn't seem unreasonable) you're certianly doing your part I'd say. Not to mention being a good frontliner and absorbing aggro from the others who attack you and not the squishies in the party.

[JonestheSpy]

Really, I've never actually dealt with the situation of using the Trip maneuver against a flyer in a game I've run, but I'd be inclined to rule that it throws the flyer off balance and send them careening off in a random direction. Maybe if the tripper was particularly skilled they could send the flyer in the direction they choose - e.g. facefirst into a wall.

And sure, without continual healing a fighter is still a good frontliner, whether being a tripper/lockdown type or otherwise. And as my original point was more that it would cut down on the Clericzilla phenomenon and make arcane casters more wary of losing hit points, they become more important in that regard - which is what was intended in the first place.

[Cog]

According to the Rules Compendium, a tripped flier falls straight down as per the normal stalling/falling rules.

[Coidzor]

Well to be honest this conversation was brought up in regards to my thoughts on a truenamer with at will use of the lexicon of the mind so you would have to look at those healing powers to answer my question.

Truenaming isn't exactly a good thing to use as the basis for any kind of decision making...


So my opinion that fast heal 20 for 5 rounds would not be a problem at high levels would be correct?

Heal would still be the only kind of in-combat healing that would be relevant, yes.

[Keld Denar]

And sure, without continual healing a fighter is still a good frontliner, whether being a tripper/lockdown type or otherwise. And as my original point was more that it would cut down on the Clericzilla phenomenon and make arcane casters more wary of losing hit points, they become more important in that regard - which is what was intended in the first place.

Really, all you are doing is punishing the people for whom HP is their only daily resource. But thats fine...kick the poor fighter when he's down. Its not like he can feel the blows anyway, being unconsious because his HP were low and it was a better expenditure of resources to heal someone more useful.

Using HP to drive your plot speed is not a very accurate way to do it. Its much easier to drive plot on long rests (recovery of spells). Short rests between MOST encounters (most, not all...I stress MOST) should be allowed and encouraged. Otherwise, you have players start hording their resources needlessly and desiring to take more long rests (to recover spells, since poor clericy had to burn 2/3 of his remaining slots to recover the fighters 150 HPs).

Plus, that kinda pidgeonholes one of the players into the "healer" role, which not everyone wants to play. Sometimes its fun, but often times it wasn't. Remember how many people wanted to play clerics in 2e when all you were was a walking bandaid at most levels? Not a lot. Just cause 3e clerics can do other cool stuff, doesn't mean a player wants to feel forced to burn most of their slots on healing their fellow party members when they could be doing cool stuff like smiting enemies with weapon or spell.

No, healing should be available for all on a short rest basis. 5-10 minutes between encounters to tick off some fast healing will allow everyone to play their character their own way without forcing anyone to be subservient to another players desires to not start the encounter at half health.

[Darth Stabber]

As stated before, hp is a resource of least concern when it comes to issues of power . As a gm I would much rather hand out an item of clw @will than a ring of wizardry 3 or 4, (or even a pearl of power 4+). My current party has a dread necromancer, and everyone is tomb tainted (using a regional feat {custom world, with a massively necromantic nation}). This hasn't caused any problems(unlike the DN's wights). My bigger issue is try ing to coax more spell slots out of the DN and pp out of the psion, since the party spends 1 spell on a debuff (or aoe), and 1 astral construct, the dn then starts touching and the psion xbowing, and they can rock 4/day encounters 2-3 cr higher than they are supposed to with ease (the other party member is an unarmed swordsage). At level 5 they beat down an umber hulk, then proceeded to eat 8 battle dancers alive. Or at level 4 when they slogged through 10 lvl 1 skarn warriors and their lvl 4 incarnate boss. The only gotch I have been able to get them on was a sleeping gas trap (none of them have a fort save worth crap).