Help me stat out a Captain (Bardblade or-sader)

[Firechanter]

As my plans for our upcoming campaign begin to take form, it looks like it will have a certain military focus. Thus, I'm going to need an NPC officer that can boss around provide guidance and inspiration to the party -- not as DM-Pet of course, he won't be present on most quests, but there are going to be some mass battles where he'll see action.

I like to keep my builds relatively simple and straightforward, so I was thinking of either a Bard/Crusader or Bard/Warblade chassis. However, never having played a Bard before, I could use some advice what to go for and what to skip.

I think I'll first introduce the NPC at level 9-ish, and then see how long he survives. Oh yes and he's going to be a human, no frills.

Current plan:
Bard (4), feats: Extra Music, Lingering Song, Song of the Heart
Martial Adept* (5): feats: Song of the White Raven, White Raven Defence, Clarion Commander

Maneuvers: mostly White Raven. Such as
Leading the Attack
Battle Leader's Charge
White Raven Tactics

If Warblade, also some Iron Heart:
Wall of Blades;
Iron Heart Surge

If Crusader, some Devoted Spirit, but don't know which.
Stances: White Raven ones

So, here are my questions:
- should I use Warblade or Crusader as martial side? Related to this:
-- should I give him light armour (Mithral Breastplate) to negate ASF, or (if Crusader) give him full plate?
-- Sword'n'Board or Two-handed weapon/Polearm? I was thinking maybe Glaive, although there isn't really room for Power Attack or Combat Reflexes unless I skip something else. Ofc a shield would again risk ASF.

- How much should I pump in Cha? I'm guessing 14 to get a level 2 bonus spell. Would any more make sense?
-- which spells to choose? Obviously Inspirational Boost, but what about the others?

- How to invest WBL?
I was thinking a Harmonizing Weapon (8K), Mithral Breastplate (up to +2, 5-9K), and maybe a Vest of Legend (DMG2, 16K), if its level boost stacks with Song of White Raven. Plus a Badge of Valor, that's cheap.

Other suggestions?

[Lateral]

I just finished building a 9th level Bardblade, so...


- should I use Warblade or Crusader as martial side? They're both good choices. I suppose it depends on whether your secondary focus is going to be stickiness or head-on combat.
-- should I give him light armour (Mithral Breastplate) to negate ASF, or (if Crusader) give him full plate? Mithral Breastplate, probably, if you're planning on taking and using utility spells.
-- Sword'n'Board or Two-handed weapon/Polearm? I was thinking maybe Glaive, although there isn't really room for Power Attack or Combat Reflexes unless I skip something else. Ofc a shield would again risk ASF. S&B is probably a bad choice since it'll give you ASF. THF is good,

- How much should I pump in Cha? I'm guessing 14 to get a level 2 bonus spell. Would any more make sense? That's all you need. You can go with less if you have to, but you should have the stats.
-- which spells to choose? Obviously Inspirational Boost, but what about the others? Ones that scale well, or don't offer saves. Alter Self can be quite nice. Blur can be useful. Stuff like that.

- How to invest WBL?
I was thinking a Harmonizing Weapon (8K), Mithral Breastplate (up to +2, 5-9K), and maybe a Vest of Legend (DMG2, 16K), if its level boost stacks with Song of White Raven. Plus a Badge of Valor, that's cheap. Harmonizing Weapon is a good choice; take one and you don't have to take Lingering Song.

Other suggestions?

[T.G. Oskar]

As my plans for our upcoming campaign begin to take form, it looks like it will have a certain military focus. Thus, I'm going to need an NPC officer that can boss around provide guidance and inspiration to the party -- not as DM-Pet of course, he won't be present on most quests, but there are going to be some mass battles where he'll see action.

I like to keep my builds relatively simple and straightforward, so I was thinking of either a Bard/Crusader or Bard/Warblade chassis. However, never having played a Bard before, I could use some advice what to go for and what to skip.

I think I'll first introduce the NPC at level 9-ish, and then see how long he survives. Oh yes and he's going to be a human, no frills.

Current plan:
Bard (4), feats: Extra Music, Lingering Song, Song of the Heart
Martial Adept* (5): feats: Song of the White Raven, White Raven Defence, Clarion Commander

Maneuvers: mostly White Raven. Such as
Leading the Attack
Battle Leader's Charge
White Raven Tactics

If Warblade, also some Iron Heart:
Wall of Blades;
Iron Heart Surge

If Crusader, some Devoted Spirit, but don't know which.
Stances: White Raven ones

As set up, you'd do phenomenally well as a Crusader. Bard/Sader adds your Charisma to Will saves, and it also nets you a few spells, not to mention Devoted Spirit and White Raven are supportive schools.

On Devoted Spirit, you should invest on healing moves almost exclusively. If you're good, getting Aura of Triumph is excellent, since you'll be healing yourself and an ally with each hit, which is great if you mix it with a healing strike and Defensive Rebuke as a boost for attacks. That might make you starve for feats, since you might need Combat Reflexes and a good Dex score to take advantage of those freebies. As mentioned, Defensive Rebuke is phenomenal, as well as Thicket of Blades (if you're going for Combat Reflexes and AoO-locking) or Iron Guard's Glare as a debuff.

Feat-wise, you should have enough songs to last for a day. If you get to Bard 6 (so that you get Inspire Greatness), you should have 6 uses per day of Bardic Music, which is more than enough; you should find a way to remain singing while fighting, so that you get the most out of IC and IG. That also makes Lingering Song less important, since so as long as you remain performing (which is why singing is such a good type of performance) the effect continues. Lingering Song is good if you're planning to shift between songs early on, but if you're only for Inspire Courage, just singing is enough. Song of the Heart, on the other hand, is more than essential. Song of the White Raven is just as essential, because it allows you to use Inspire Courage as a boost (as a swift action move, hence thematically the same as a boost) and also improves IC, so it's a double gift. White Raven Defense isn't so hot, and Clarion Commander really has three utilities; allowing an ally to get an attack of opportunity (bad if you're not full of melee warriors), treating a creature as flanked for 1 minute (arguably the best, more if you use Tactics of the Wolf to increase flanking damage) and dealing an attack of opportunity of your own (which you can already do with Defensive Rebuke and/or Thicket of Blades alongside a reach weapon), so CC may be a waste of a feat depending on your focus.


So, here are my questions:
- should I use Warblade or Crusader as martial side? Related to this:
-- should I give him light armour (Mithral Breastplate) to negate ASF, or (if Crusader) give him full plate?

1) Crusader, obviously. Warblade requires you to have good Intelligence (which you'll likely keep low, although it allows you to get Combat Expertise if you want more AC), while Crusader grants entry to Devoted Spirit which blends well with White Raven, alongside allowing you to focus on those two disciplines (Stone Dragon isn't so important, and you'd most likely want Mountain Hammer and Mountain Tombstone Strike for their utility and superb debuff).

2) Mithral Breastplate would be the best choice if you're going for Combat Reflexes; that allows you to get enough AC from your Dexterity. You could also go for Mithral Chain Shirt if you want (depending on your Dex). Full Plate isn't a good idea because, while you can reliably make a Mithral Twilight Full Plate work 90% of the times and you can focus on spells that aren't based off somatic components, you'll want enough AC so that you get hit and allow you to turn that into attack and damage bonuses through Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike. Both Mithral Breastplate and Mithral Chain Shirt work in similar ways, so it mostly depends on whether you want +1 AC from the armor or +1 AC from Dexterity.


-- Sword'n'Board or Two-handed weapon/Polearm? I was thinking maybe Glaive, although there isn't really room for Power Attack or Combat Reflexes unless I skip something else. Ofc a shield would again risk ASF.

If you take out Extra Song and Lingering Song, you can place at least Combat Reflexes and probably Stand Still and make a decent Lockdown build, which requires a reach weapon. You MAY want to invest on Imp. Unarmed Strike or armor spikes so that you can use your unarmed strikes or your spikes if they bypass your reach area. Shields would add more AC than you really need (and you want more non-armor, non-shield, non-natural armor bonuses to AC anyways). A Glaive is more than enough, because it would add twice your Strength to damage.


- How much should I pump in Cha? I'm guessing 14 to get a level 2 bonus spell. Would any more make sense?
-- which spells to choose? Obviously Inspirational Boost, but what about the others?

3) 14-16 is the magic number. Remember you want high Strength, good Con (14 so that you can soak the loss of HP from Bard, esp. if it's your first level) and decent Dex if you go the Combat Reflexes route (14 is more than enough).

4) What you want is buffs, probably last-ditch defense tactics. For starters, you may make good use of Grease and probably Glitterdust so they're good enough (and if you can increase its Charisma, better). Blur and Mirror Image are two back-to-back defenses. Don't get healing spells; your maneuvers should do for in-combat healing while wands should do for out-of-combat healing. Improvisation is a very good spell if you can get your caster level high enough, because it grants you a pool of points you can use whenever you need them on stuff like saves and attack rolls, so you can definitely land the hit when you need it the most. Aside from that and Inspirational Boost, take your pick; you might want to get Glitterdust and Mirror Image as your 2nd level spells, though, so that you can get one "last-ditch" spell from your bonus spells.


- How to invest WBL?
I was thinking a Harmonizing Weapon (8K), Mithral Breastplate (up to +2, 5-9K), and maybe a Vest of Legend (DMG2, 16K), if its level boost stacks with Song of White Raven. Plus a Badge of Valor, that's cheap.

Badge of Valor doesn't stack with Inspirational Boost unless you're a Ruby Knight Windicator, in which case you'd have enough swift actions to get both bonuses. Badge of Valor does allow you to save your spell slots for when you want to do something else with 1st level spell slots, though.

For pure damage, Collision isn't a bad idea for a weapon enhancement (+5 to damage doesn't seem like much until you figure it's static damage, which means it stacks with critical hit enhancers). Vest of Legend stacks with White Raven bonus (basically you'd get Bard levels + Crusader levels +5, meaning you get IC +3 quick enough).

I'd tell you to get a Scabbard of Keen Edges if you can apply it to a glaive, because that grants you an increased critical threat range, which when you stack with all the other modifiers (Collision, Furious Counterstrike, Inspire Courage, possibly Tactics of the Wolf if you can flank the enemy) means you can get a respectable 18 points of damage (with +1 glaive of collision, +2 from Furious Counterstrike, +3 from Tactics of the Wolf and a 14 Str) and a potential of about 60 or more points if going all out (FC, Collision, IC, Tactics of the Wolf, possibly Power Attack) on a successful critical hit. A keen glaive would grant that bonus 10% of the times, about 1 of every 10 hits, so you get a substantial increase to damage that way (and if you can enable more hits for yourself, that means the chances of landing a critical hit and dealing mondo damage increase exponentially).


Other suggestions?

Plan ahead, and make him a leader with a secret weapon. Ideally, you want to use your Bard/Sader leader as a team player, buffing allies with IC and possibly enabling actions through maneuvers, all while doing respectable damage. If you have stuff like Combat Reflexes and Stand Still, that means you can get a few enemies locked down (if using Thicket of Blades) which allows your NPC to have all enemies focused on him and not on the other NPCs or your PCs. If the battle is going sour (that is, if you feel that the battle is going the way of the enemy NPCs), he can suddenly shift from support to offense (if he's built for offense) and dish out large amounts of damage. The idea is that, since your PCs must shine, he's there mostly to ensure his troops survive, and that includes your PCs; his increased offense is there when your characters are close to a losing battle. Having such an offensive set of tricks (plus Blur/Mirror Image for defense) may seem curb-stomping, but it may goad your PCs into respecting the NPC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, so basically, you're wanting a beatstick who is also a buff for his allies? Mmmkay, we can run with that.

First off, this is gonna be feat intensive, so Human is definitely a must. Are flaws available?

My favorite run is Bard4/Barbarian1/Crusader1/Barbarian1/Warchanter10/Crusader3. Here's my reasoning:

1) Song of the White Raven is good. Just make sure you aren't in a White Raven stance for swift action economy. Levels still stack.

2) With judicious use of IC optimization, you can really dish out the bonuses

3) BAB of +19 over 20 levels. Not too shabby, eh?

4) Barbarian dip does the following:
- Whirling Frenzy variant for haste option (can still do bard songs while in frenzy)
- Spirit Lion Totem for pounce
- Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) variant for Improved Trip to be combined with EWP spiked chain.

So, here's my proposal:

Feats:

1st level: Song of the Heart, Dragontouched (Human bonus)
3rd level: Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon) (able to be obtained thanks to Dragontouched)
6th level: Song of the White Raven
9th level: Dragonfire Inspiration
12th level: Draconic Aura (Senses) for untyped bonus to Initiative (thanks to Dragontouched, this improves by character level)

If Flaws are allowed:
1st: Song of the Heart, Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage, EWP: Spiked Chain
3rd: DFI
6th: Song of the White Raven
9th: Draconic Aura (Senses)
12th: Power Attack
15th: Improved Bull Rush
18th: Shock Trooper

For your first stance, you want martial spirit for auto-healing every hit. You don't want a White Raven stance because of swift action economy, and this works well with your goal of hitting a lot of people with your spiked chain. Later on, you can pick up Thicket of Blades.

For gear, you want:

Masterwork Mandolin (to be switched out for spiked chain after your music is in place) for +1 to IC. If your GM lets you get away with it, see if you can get Dancing on it so it can continue playing while you fight with the spiked chain.
Vest of Legends to increase effective Bard level for IC
Badge of Valor for +1 increase to IC
Spiked Chain. Once you get Shock Trooper, you get Valorous on it.

That's it in a nutshell. Battlefield Control + DFI + Song of Legion + some charger thrown in.

Variants: get rid of PA-Shock Trooper in favor of something better.

[Firechanter]

Thanks for the detailed replies, will have to work through them tomorrow.

Just a short note on ability distribution: 36 point buy.
I was thinking almost straight 14s, except trading some Wis for Str. I was thinking Int 14 for skills and expertise.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "don't take White Raven stances for action economy" -- SoWR says you CAN activate IC as swift action, not you MUST. The way I see it - and the other thread about this exact topic sees it - you have the choice what action to use while you are in a WR stance.

Not sure about flaws. If we (as a group) agree that Flaws are in, which would you recommend? (Again, keep in mind this is for an npc.) I haven't used them in D&D yet. Shaky seems a gift for any melee.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

At level 9:

Human Bard4/Crusader1/War Chanter4

Gear: Vest of Legends, MW (instrument that gives +1 to IC), Badge of Valor

Feats: Song of the Heart, Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage, Song of the White Raven, DFI

Lingering Song is kind of a trap, unless encounters go more than five rounds.

[Firechanter]

Okay, I'll kick out the Lingering Song.

Shneekey's Dragontouched ans Oskar's Bardsader builds are also pretty nice -- ha, you know what, there's bound to be more than one fighting officer in an army. I'll simply stat out several, also give them different personalities, and then we'll see how they go.

As we're about it, I'll also need some generic soldier types, levels 4-6. Probably Warblades and Crusaders with possibly 1 or 2 Fighter levels mixed in for extra feats.
Which class should I use for the archery department? Ranger? Scout?

[RaggedAngel]

Sorry, I'd just like to point out that Song of the White Raven specifies that only Warblade and Bard levels stack for Inspire Courage. If you want Inspire Courage to scale with your level, you can't go the Crusader route.

[Firechanter]

Please look again. It does in fact read "Your crusader and warblade levels stack with your bard levels..."
It's funny because I also failed to see it at first and thought "bah, only warblade and not crusader?" - and then the next day I looked at it again and "suddenly" it clearly included crusader.

[Keld Denar]

What weapon style are you going for? If you compare Dragonfire Inspiration with standard Inspire Courage with a 2hander, you'll find that with 2:1 Power Attack, Dragonfire Inspiration is only .5 damage/bonus ahead of standard Inspire Courage, average. In that case, vanillia Inspire Courage is better. Its static damage, and thus multiplies on a critical (great for Falchions), and its less likely to get resisted. With DFI, your damage comes in 2 packets. You have the weapon damage that is subject to DR and you have the elemental damage which is subject to resistances/immunities. If your target has both DR and Energy Resistance, he's sapping damage away from you TWICE. With vanillia Inspire Courage, your damage comes in once packet, physical weapon damage. Chances are that your base damage and Str and other factors are at least enough to match the DR of your foe, which means that your PA damage and IC damage goes through clean and clear each time. Plus, if a foe is REALLY hard to hit, you can always back off on the PA and let more of your IC go to to-hit, because a miss always results in 0 damage.

If you are going TWFing, however, there is no contest. DFI is better in nearly every respect.

I find since Crusaders have primarily only strikes in their arsenal, they tend to do better with single big hits, IE standard IC + 2handed PA. Warblade's have more access to boosts and maneuvers that give more attacks per round such as Dancing/Raging Mongoose, Mithril/Adamantine Hurricane, Avalanche of Blades, and Time Stands Still, as well as better support for the TWFing style, which makes DFI a stronger option.

[Lateral]

Please look again. It does in fact read "Your crusader and warblade levels stack with your bard levels..."
It's funny because I also failed to see it at first and thought "bah, only warblade and not crusader?" - and then the next day I looked at it again and "suddenly" it clearly included crusader.

Happened to me too. :smallconfused:

[Firechanter]

This Captain doesn't even need to deal out that much damage himself, the clear priority is on buffing / aiding / coordinating his troops.
That said, I'm probably going to go for Glaive or Guisarme (or Glaive-Guisarme, or Glaive-Guisarme-Glaive, or Glaive-Glaive-Glaive-Gl----).

So I guess I'll skip the DFI on this one, thanks for the analysis!

[Gametime]

Badge of Valor doesn't stack with Inspirational Boost unless you're a Ruby Knight Windicator, in which case you'd have enough swift actions to get both bonuses. Badge of Valor does allow you to save your spell slots for when you want to do something else with 1st level spell slots, though.


Badge of Valor is immediate activation. You can start your song as a standard, cast Inspirational Boost as a swift, and then use Badge of Valor on the next person's turn to get full power out of Inspire Courage for the round. You'll miss out on your next turn's swift action, but it's often worth it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This Captain doesn't even need to deal out that much damage himself, the clear priority is on buffing / aiding / coordinating his troops.
That said, I'm probably going to go for Glaive or Guisarme (or Glaive-Guisarme, or Glaive-Guisarme-Glaive, or Glaive-Glaive-Glaive-Gl----).

So I guess I'll skip the DFI on this one, thanks for the analysis!

DFI is +xd6 damage per mook. It's an exceedingly viable buff, far more so than personal. Heck, if your low-end minions have multiple natural attacks, it's WAY worth it.

[Firechanter]

I guess it depends on whether your troops have a 2-handed wep with power attack or, well, anything else. If they have 2HPA, DFI is worth just an extra 0,5*n damage, which doesn't seem to be such a good return for 2 feats investment. If your mooks go sword'n'board or anything, it's a lot more interesting, provided the opposition doesn't have fire resist.

[Hazzardevil]

I recommend taking crusader and take martial study once or twice for the Iron heart stuff you want. Iron heart has little that would interest your build.

I think you should take a glaive so if you take knockdown you can trip pretty well.

[Lateral]

Alternatively, go Warblade and take Martial Study and Martial Stance for Thicket of Blades and whatever Dev. Spirit thing you want. Or take a level or two of Crusader for at least your 9th character level.

Both Warblade and Crusader are great choices, and taking mostly from one and some from another is a good choice. I personally prefer Warblade, since the main stuff from DevSpirit you want is Thicket of Blades and that's the only thing Crusaders have that Warblades don't, but YMMV- Crusaders have a better recovery mechanic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I guess it depends on whether your troops have a 2-handed wep with power attack or, well, anything else. If they have 2HPA, DFI is worth just an extra 0,5*n damage, which doesn't seem to be such a good return for 2 feats investment. If your mooks go sword'n'board or anything, it's a lot more interesting, provided the opposition doesn't have fire resist.

it's an extra 3.5*n damage, per attack, and generally it's Sonic, not fire, which is almost never resisted.

[Siosilvar]

it's an extra 3.5*n damage, per attack, and generally it's Sonic, not fire, which is almost never resisted.

He's saying it's effectively +0.5n damage per attack, because Inspire Courage adds +1 damage and +1 to hit (converted to another +2 damage via Power Attack).

However, the damage typing on it (depending on what you choose; acid is a good one if you can't get sonic) probably makes up for spending two feats to do so.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He's saying it's effectively +0.5n damage per attack, because Inspire Courage adds +1 damage and +1 to hit (converted to another +2 damage via Power Attack).

However, the damage typing on it (depending on what you choose; acid is a good one if you can't get sonic) probably makes up for spending two feats to do so.

plus energy damage bypasses DR against opponents with high DR...

And Draconic Heretage: Battle Dragon gives you Sonic damage easy peasy. However, you can do BOTH at the same time, so it's really not a matter of 'one or the other', but 'let's do both'....

[Keld Denar]

If he's mostly going to be shepherding level 1 warrior NPCs, straight IC will give the biggest boost. Most attacks in a Warrior1 vs Warrior1 duel will be 1 hit KOs anyway. Increasing accuracy will thus result in more hits and more KOs for the mooks under his command. Empowering mooks to deal +4d6 extra damage per hit only results in overkill on most hits.

Switching Dragonfire to another flavor takes 3 feats or 2 feats and a dip in Sorcerer. One for DFI itself, one for Dragontouched so that you qualify as a Sorc1 with regards to Draconic feats, and finally one for Draconic Heritage. Thats a bit feat intensive. Most low level mooks aren't gonna have fire resistance at all unless they are facing an army of lemures or such.


plus energy damage bypasses DR against opponents with high DR...

As does normal IC, assuming your base + Str damage is high enough to at least meet the DR. Most things don't have DR above 10 until like, CR10 at least.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If he's mostly going to be shepherding level 1 warrior NPCs, straight IC will give the biggest boost. Most attacks in a Warrior1 vs Warrior1 duel will be 1 hit KOs anyway. Increasing accuracy will thus result in more hits and more KOs for the mooks under his command. Empowering mooks to deal +4d6 extra damage per hit only results in overkill on most hits.

Switching Dragonfire to another flavor takes 3 feats or 2 feats and a dip in Sorcerer. One for DFI itself, one for Dragontouched so that you qualify as a Sorc1 with regards to Draconic feats, and finally one for Draconic Heritage. Thats a bit feat intensive. Most low level mooks aren't gonna have fire resistance at all unless they are facing an army of lemures or such.



As does normal IC, assuming your base + Str damage is high enough to at least meet the DR. Most things don't have DR above 10 until like, CR10 at least.

Dragontouched also lets you stack aura bonuses as well, like Senses for Initiative bonuses. After all, when you have one-hit kills, going first means not dying.

[Firechanter]

If he's mostly going to be shepherding level 1 warrior NPCs, straight IC will give the biggest boost.

Oh just for the record, IMC the standard troops will be level 3-4 with PC class levels; i.e. mainly Fighter, Crusader, Warblade and mixes thereof. At least on the "good" side. The opposition may be a bit lower, but appear in larger numbers.

Generally I don't think much (or anything) of mooks that can be killed by a common housecat in one round.