Too Difficult?

[Aravir]

I am GMing a group of 18+level characters and their mission may bring them to conflict with a Lich. I want to play this Lich at the level of intelligence he is at.

One way I was thinking of doing this, is to create an airless lair. Lair carved out of stone and sotneshaped sealed. Big fires used in the past to burn all the O2 out.

Subsquently those who enter via magic portal/teleport will enter a lair that cannot support living creatures. While keeping the Lich's guardians (Undead) unharmed.

Is this a TPK? Too evil? Should I drop hints.. They will be attacked the moment they enter the lair. Low level shadows and such, but enough to annoy them while dealing with no air.

Please share your thoughts.

Thank you

[Greenish]

If a party of level 18+ adventurers can't deal with lack of air they deserve to suffocate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

By that level they should each have a Necklace of Adaptation anyway, if they die to suffocation then they deserve it.

[Toliudar]

Having said this, I'd avoid houseruling damange from the suffocation too much. Ordinary drowning rules should give them ample opportunity to react. Note that you're not describing airlessness, just a lack of oxygen, so they should be able to speak and cast spells, etc.

[Firechanter]

Well, what do you want to happen?

Basically I see only three options:
- players are totally at a loss and the PCs die.
- players are quick enough on their feet to port out again. It's just no oxygen, not a vacuum, so they can still cast spells and teleport out, and return again better prepared
- players have some way at hand to survive without oxygen and use it.

Point is, I think unless you drop some hints, they will never expect this.
If they get the hint, however, they will just get some cheap items from the MIC (mask of sweet air or what's it called), rendering the obstable trivial.

That's also a typical problem with D&D: so many things you can throw at the PCs are all-or-nothing; murderous or trivial.

Also, I disagree with the users above. If you have never used such a shtick before, they simply won't expect it. Not all groups play D&D with all the knobs turned up til they come off, so I am allergic to lines like "if they can't fly at 200 feet they deserve to die".

The PCs in question obviously have no necklaces of adaptation. If they did, the DM wouldn't need to bother posting here. Encounter trivial, move on.

[Aravir]

Thank you for the replies thus far, I appreciate the insights.

[Greenish]

Also, I disagree with the users above. If you have never used such a shtick before, they simply won't expect it.So what? They're a full bunch of level 18 characters, they can hold their breaths long enough to dispatch some shadows and figure out what to do.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/HahaShenanigans/batman-5.gif

[holywhippet]

Burning off all the oxygen would result in lots of carbon dioxide in the air. You might want to read the wikipedia article regarding CO2 to get some ideas about how to handle your players being exposed to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#Toxicity

Pay attention to the results of high CO2 percentages:

* 1% can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.[5]
* At 2% it is mildly narcotic and causes increased blood pressure and pulse rate, and causes reduced hearing.[53]
* At about 5% it causes stimulation of the respiratory center, dizziness, confusion and difficulty in breathing accompanied by headache and shortness of breath.[53] Panic attacks may also occur at this concentration.[55][56]
* At about 8% it causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.[53]


I'd go through each of these in turn - first the characters find themselves oddly drowsy, then they notice their heart is beating harder and they are having trouble hearing. Next they start getting dizzy and have trouble breathing - throw in some will saves vs. panic. Finally they go to headaches and have trouble seeing before starting to lose conciousness.

I'd let the players work out what is going on via either a heal check or a knowledge: nature check.

[Lateral]

Why would they need a check? There's no air, they're choking to death. That would happen long before the symptoms of carbon dioxide exposure come up.

@V: ...Right. My point stands, however.

[Greenish]

Why would they need a check? There's no air, they're choking to death. That would happen long before the symptoms of carbon dioxide exposure come up.There is air. It just doesn't have any oxygen in it.

[Edit]: Or rather, it doesn't have any elemental oxygen in it.

[Flickerdart]

What were the drowning rules - 2*Con score? So they have 20 or so rounds, minimum, to remember that breathing is a thing, teleport out and come back with necklaces of adaptation.
That's when you have enemies sunder their necklaces (give extra loot to compensate, but at this point that money means nothing). I hope they brought extras!

[Koury]

Don't you need LoS to sunder? Just don't wear the necklace on top of everything else you're wearing like its just jewelery and you should be fine.

[Vangor]

As said, shouldn't be too difficult for any group capable of entering such a lair. No one may be immediately prepared for this, but the worst is they enter, dispatch the ambush, and leave in short order. Give them a period to rest, and hope they came prepared to leave and breath or have a handful of diamonds.

[Flickerdart]

Don't you need LoS to sunder? Just don't wear the necklace on top of everything else you're wearing like its just jewelery and you should be fine.
Well, obviously they'll get wise after the first encounter this happens in, but it adds a twist to the problem.

[holywhippet]

What were the drowning rules - 2*Con score? So they have 20 or so rounds, minimum, to remember that breathing is a thing, teleport out and come back with necklaces of adaptation.
That's when you have enemies sunder their necklaces (give extra loot to compensate, but at this point that money means nothing). I hope they brought extras!

That's the catch, they can breath in a no oxygen enviroment. There is air (although it will likely smell smokey) and they can inhale it. But their body won't be getting any oxygen out of it and will start having problems.

I was actually being nice just posting the details of carbon dioxide before. Really the greater problem will be the presence of carbon monoxide which the human body will mistake for oxygen, is highly toxic, but you can't see it, taste or smell it. Your body will start shutting down when you begin to breath it and you might be not coherent enough to work out why.

[Telok]

I'd advise a lair with a vertical layout and a methane, oxygen, carbon dioxide, zone mix. Perhaps a vat of chlorine somewhere too.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gas-density-d_158.html

The top level will be normal air. After a sealed door they will find the methane seep, and any fire will ignite the entire level and burn off all of the oxygen. Another level lower and they will encounter the carbon dioxide layer, normal fire won't work and they can't breathe. Last level there is nothing but a carbon dioxide and chlorine atmosphere, poisonous without some form of sealed environment suit (or total poison immunity).

[Cog]

I'm not sure the standard breath-holding rules would apply. I know it's not explicit, but to me that always implied being able to intentionally take a breath and, well, hold it. Here, people won't be able to realize there's no air until they've tried to breathe it, and so already have (at least partly) emptied their lungs. They'd have breathed out a good amount of unused oxygen into the air around them, and there'd be some in their lungs.

A reflex save on arrival might be a good way to handle in. The first person to try to breathe would get a reflex save to keep half their breath, maybe, and if they can warn the others quickly, they'd get a reflex save to keep all their breath, or lose half if they flub it?

[holywhippet]

Having no air whatsoever would quite probably cause a TPK. No air means the party members likely can't cast any spells with a verbal component. Unless they have some silent metamagic teleport type spells readied they will be in trouble.

Unless one of them was smart enough to use their bag of holding as a rebreather - the rules say it holds enough air for 10 minutes.

[Cog]

Having no air whatsoever would quite probably cause a TPK.
The air is just deprived of molecular oxygen; it's not gone entirely. There's still stuff left for your vocal cords to vibrate.

[holywhippet]

The air is just deprived of molecular oxygen; it's not gone entirely. There's still stuff left for your vocal cords to vibrate.

I know, well given the original description of what was done, there should be air but no oxygen. But the original poster talked about removing the air and some of the responses have assumed the area would be completely air free.

Come to think of it though, would being completely air free help the lich? In theory no air means they can't cast either. No oxygen would be fine though.

[Greenish]

Come to think of it though, would being completely air free help the lich? In theory no air means they can't cast either.The lich, at the very least, should be prepared for being able to cast in it's own lair.


That is an idea, btw. If the situation seems too bleak for your players, have some of the lich's living minions burst into the scene. After party defeats them, they can loot whatever the minions were using to breath.

[Edit]: Still, if a party of level 18+ adventurers are defeated by mere lack of breathable air, they have no place being that high level anyway.

[olthar]

How much science do we want?

Simple: No air == vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space). Obviously, you're not talking about that.

Slightly more complex: Most stone has holes in it that allows some air to travel through it. So the stoneshaping would need to be amazingly done to stop that. If the stoneshaping was that well done, then that means the smoke would have had no way of dissipating. So the place would be entirely smoke, which would be very very noticeable.

About the same level: Fire would not completely consume all of the oxygen. It would consume until the point that it put itself out. With the smoke having no way of leaving the room, I'd imagine there would be a very small pocket of air near the bottom of the room (since traditional smoke from a fire is lighter than air).

So, to do what you wanted, you would need to either have a mostly smoke filled room, or a vacuum. Either one isn't quite what you want and would pose their own unique problems. If you really want to create an impossible environment and not have the PCs complain about science issues, then make it underwater.

[Strife Warzeal]

How much science do we want?

Simple: No air == vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space). Obviously, you're not talking about that.

Slightly more complex: Most stone has holes in it that allows some air to travel through it. So the stoneshaping would need to be amazingly done to stop that. If the stoneshaping was that well done, then that means the smoke would have had no way of dissipating. So the place would be entirely smoke, which would be very very noticeable.

About the same level: Fire would not completely consume all of the oxygen. It would consume until the point that it put itself out. With the smoke having no way of leaving the room, I'd imagine there would be a very small pocket of air near the bottom of the room (since traditional smoke from a fire is lighter than air).

So, to do what you wanted, you would need to either have a mostly smoke filled room, or a vacuum. Either one isn't quite what you want and would pose their own unique problems. If you really want to create an impossible environment and not have the PCs complain about science issues, then make it underwater.

As has been said multiple times, it's not "no air" it's no breathable air (oxygen). Sorry if that sounded harsh at all, but has been mentioned several times in the past few posts

[only1doug]

How much science do we want?

So, to do what you wanted, you would need to either have a mostly smoke filled room, or a vacuum. Either one isn't quite what you want and would pose their own unique problems. If you really want to create an impossible environment and not have the PCs complain about science issues, then make it underwater.

Smoke is Particles from the fire in suspension, they will drop out over time (and can be swept up by the undead minions if desired.

[NichG]

The first 'gotcha' exposure is not likely to be dangerous to a Lv18 group, as at the very least they will have been prepared to leave the way they came, and will simply come back a day later. High CO2 exposure has a strong physiological reaction (the thing that lets you know you're out of useful air when you're holding your breath, etc is a reaction to high CO2, not lack of O2), so the party would notice immediately if it were a place where the oxygen had simply been burned away.

On the other hard, there are some really nasty things to do, that require a bit of science knowledge from the lich:

- Fill the dungeon with an inert, heavier-than-air gas. Physiologically, this just causes a gradual sleepiness followed by unconsciousness. No pain, panic response, etc that you get from high CO2. Argon is good but its selection stretches credibility in a medieval setting. Probably the best way to do it is 'some unique heavy gas that exists in this setting but not necessarily IRL, produced alchemically'.

- The dungeon is a super-oxygen environment rather than a zero-oxygen environment. Living things end up effectively getting drunk from breathing the air and their loss of rationality lets them be easily defeated.

- The dungeon is very very deep underwater and filled with pure nitrogen. The party gets to deal with issues such as the bends from teleporting from one pressure level to another abruptly, nitrogen narcosis, etc. Necklaces of Adaptation don't help against the pressure here either.

- Have the dungeon be absent of breathable air, but as mentioned in other posts filled with smoke. The spellcasters end up having to make saves against coughing, or at least have to make Concentration checks to cast. The problem here is its not much of a thing to figure out and react to, its basically a 'if you fail this involuntary series of die rolls you lose your one teleport and the party TPKs'

- Let the party find out in advance that the dungeon will be airless. See if they come up with clever ideas to ventilate it, or otherwise do things that incorporate the airlessness into challenges deeper in the dungeon, such as antimagic areas that suppress the Necklaces of Adaptation/whatever they're using, or casters using targeted dispel.

[faceroll]

Don't give your players any help, or any hints. If they're level 18+ and can't figure out how to breathe, they deserve death.

Tell them the air is stale and thick, and they can't seem to draw a full breath. If, after, 2*con mod rounds (so two minutes-ish) they haven't done anything, have them start rolling fort saves vs. drowning.


How much science do we want?

Simple: No air == vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space). Obviously, you're not talking about that.

Slightly more complex: Most stone has holes in it that allows some air to travel through it. So the stoneshaping would need to be amazingly done to stop that. If the stoneshaping was that well done, then that means the smoke would have had no way of dissipating. So the place would be entirely smoke, which would be very very noticeable.

About the same level: Fire would not completely consume all of the oxygen. It would consume until the point that it put itself out. With the smoke having no way of leaving the room, I'd imagine there would be a very small pocket of air near the bottom of the room (since traditional smoke from a fire is lighter than air).

So, to do what you wanted, you would need to either have a mostly smoke filled room, or a vacuum. Either one isn't quite what you want and would pose their own unique problems. If you really want to create an impossible environment and not have the PCs complain about science issues, then make it underwater.

Or, magic.

[Talesin]

I would avoid being too harsh as strictly speaking you only get 2 breaths without any oxygen before you could pass out. Well a normal human will anyway, had a HTML link but can't seem to get it to work, so just google it.

Though for this I would say its far too harsh as they'd be down within 2 rounds, with no real reason as to why and even if a few of them did survive (assuming 11+ con gives them a few more rounds) the chance that they could get everyone out again may be a problem. Would be something to scare the hell out of your PCs though and they would definitely take the lich seriously. However having someone's character die from it would probably annoy just about anybody.

It's an interesting challenge i'd say and its a shame that they're all so high level so things like torches not functioning would actually be a problem, as I assume by now they have some form of magical light source.

[HalfDragonCube]

Auran masks in CM cost 60gp (incredibly cheap at 18th level) and provide breathing for an hour.

[Firechanter]

It's an interesting challenge i'd say and its a shame that they're all so high level so things like torches not functioning would actually be a problem, as I assume by now they have some form of magical light source.

Oh I don't know, recently I was flamed at for assuming either magical lightsources or mass darkvision from mid-levels up. Some other poster maintained that regular bull's-eye lanterns were the best option all the way. So if that attitude is common in other groups, oxygen-less air will easily stall them.

I wouldn't go too scientific with the effects and toxicity of burned-up air; D&D is the game where you can survive a 100 foot fall into a pool of molten lava.
Simply tell the players that the air tastes stale and smokey, and make it clear they can't breathe. Since they didn't hold their breath, give them maybe half their Con score rounds to act - which should be well enough to port out unless they have means at hand to counter the problem.

[Feytalist]

I actually like the effects of CO2 idea. Every stage has its own save (or not), and as the players continue exploring (without actually doing anything about their problem), the effects get worse. Cue the skill check penalties etc.

[Gullintanni]

There are spells for this. Water Breathing, being available in core, is great. All you need to do is bring some water with you. Your players can inhale and exhale from a Waterskin. It lasts 2 hours per level, divided among creatures touched. For a four man group, this is half an hour per character, per caster level.

Although a more obscure source, by RAW, Air Breathing from Stormwrack makes the targeted characters able to breathe air, regardless of whether or not there's any oxygen in it.

Problem solved. Greenish had it right, if your party can't handle a lack of breathable air at level 18+, they're doing something wrong.

[Cog]

Water can become deoxygenated (referring to molecular oxygen, of course) just as easily as air. Humans breathe air, fish breathe water - neither ability gives you a benefit if there's no oxygen to be had. "Airless water" is even mentioned in Stormwrack.

[Kuma Da]

Honestly, I think this is an excellent idea. It really depends on your group, though. If they're in it for the challenge, this is a great way to give them something non-combat to confront, and also a great bit of dungeon flavor. It should not tpk them, but you might want to pre-gen a few minions with crappy re-breathers to drop into the lair if they port in without an exit strategy, have no means of dealing with the environment, and then start flipping out.

[Greenish]

Reminds me of Another Gaming Comic (not to be confused with Yet Another Gaming Comic), where a vault the PCs were sealed to had a vacuum, and an illusion of air. It was in an earlier edition though, where you had to try to disbelieve the illusion before you got a save.

"I disbelieve the air!"

[Gullintanni]

Water can become deoxygenated (referring to molecular oxygen, of course) just as easily as air. Humans breathe air, fish breathe water - neither ability gives you a benefit if there's no oxygen to be had. "Airless water" is even mentioned in Stormwrack.

The problem with that is that neither spell indicates that the players need oxygen. Water Breathing reads as follows:

"The transmuted creatures can breathe water freely. Divide the duration evenly among all the creatures you touch.

The spell does not make creatures unable to breathe air."

Emphasis mine. This means that your players don't need to breathe oxygen anymore. They can breathe water instead of oxygen. Air Breathing, from Stormwrack, reads similarly. It does not specify that there needs to be oxygen in the air, only that the players can breathe Air. Technically if the air was made up of 90% gaseous arsenic, then the players would be able to breathe it just fine. They may have trouble dealing with poisons, but they wouldn't suffocate.

[Cog]

I referenced Stormwrack for airless water because it specifies that water-breathing creatures can't breathe it.

Breathing water freely doesn't get you oxygen out of dead water any more than running freely when there's a brick wall in front of your face gets you any forward motion.

[Cartigan]

Although a more obscure source, by RAW, Air Breathing from Stormwrack makes the targeted characters able to breathe air, regardless of whether or not there's any oxygen in it.

Listen, if we are going to be ridiculous, then it doesn't matter if the air is pure chlorine vapor, they can still breathe because by RAW it doesn't say any race must breathe oxygen.

[Cartigan]

Reminds me of Another Gaming Comic (not to be confused with Yet Another Gaming Comic), where a vault the PCs were sealed to had a vacuum, and an illusion of air. It was in an earlier edition though, where you had to try to disbelieve the illusion before you got a save.

"I disbelieve the air!"
That is exceedingly hilarious. You could still pull it off - you attempt to breathe in and 'interact' with the spell, everyone who fails the Will save has no idea why they are suffocating.

[Gullintanni]

I referenced Stormwrack for airless water because it specifies that water-breathing creatures can't breathe it.

Breathing water freely doesn't get you oxygen out of dead water any more than running freely when there's a brick wall in front of your face gets you any forward motion.

Page 13, under Supernatural Dangers:
Airless Water
The sinister opposite of airy water, airless water is a cold, lifeless dead zone. Within a pocket of airless water, aquatic creatures cannot breathe (nor can air-breathers,for that matter). Water-breathing creatures can “hold their breath” in order to enter or pass through a mass of airless water, just as air-breathers can hold their breath to enter water.

Airless water is sometimes incorporated as defenses in submerged strongholds or as deadly traps in dungeon water features, but they are more likely to occur lying close to the ocean floor and sinking down to fill trenches, depressions, and deep places along the bottom. Pockets of airless water have a dark, slightly viscous look that can be detected by observant characters."

Your argument breaks down in that Airless Water is listed under Supernatural Dangers, whose preface reads:
Powerful and sometimes malevolent magic lurks in the deeps of underground waters and the wide expanse of the ocean.

Empasis mine. Airless Water is a magical danger. If the water you store in your waterskin is Airless Water, then you probably deserve to suffocate. That being said, simply cycling the water in a waterskin over and over is not sufficient to make it unbreatheable. By strict RAW, Airless Water is NOT deoxygenated water, rather, it is water that is unbreatheable by creatures normally able to breathe water.

Water Breathing allows creatures normally dependent upon oxygen to breathe to use regular water in place of oxygen, regardless of whether or not the water is oxygenated. Airless Water is a specific, magical hazard that overrides the rules governing normal water. It may not seem logical, but by RAW, it's correct.


Listen, if we are going to be ridiculous, then it doesn't matter if the air is pure chlorine vapor, they can still breathe because by RAW it doesn't say any race must breathe oxygen.

This is by RAW correct. Characters need to be able to breathe Air. That's all. The composition of the air is irrelevant. The difficulty is that in this case...Chlorine Vapor is pretty acidic. I'm reasonably sure that despite being able to breathe the stuff, your characters would suffer residual, and very lethal acid damage. A Black Dragon with acid immunity; however, should be fine in this environment.

...Although I do agree that using Air Breathing in this scenario is pretty ridiculous. By RAW, you're right. PC's don't need oxygen, just air. Using fire to consume the oxygen in the environment shouldn't, by RAW, make the area any less habitable.

[Cog]

You're getting into, "By RAW, there's nothing saying dead characters lose their actions, so now that the orc slew me I can act freely," territory here.

If you're coming into this from the assumption that characters don't need molecular oxygen to breathe, then the entire thread is pointless, because that's the premise of it.

The general assumption for DM adjudication, as suggested by the DMG, is that basic physics should apply. Dead bodies don't move on their own, you don't run through walls, and breathing creatures breathe oxygen. Would you rather every edition come with an encyclopedia that exhaustively listed every single real-world detail that's intended to apply?

(Yes, airless water is listed as a magical danger, because generally it takes magic to generate it. That doesn't mean it can't model what would happen to water-breathing creatures in a situation where water has been nonmagically deprived of molecular oxygen.)

[Gullintanni]

You're getting into, "By RAW, there's nothing saying dead characters lose their actions, so now that the orc slew me I can act freely," territory here.

1. If you're coming into this from the assumption that characters don't need molecular oxygen to breathe, then the entire thread is pointless, because that's the premise of it.

The general assumption for DM adjudication, as suggested by the DMG, is that basic physics should apply. Dead bodies don't move on their own, you don't run through walls, and breathing creatures breathe oxygen. Would you rather every edition come with an encyclopedia that exhaustively listed every single real-world detail that's intended to apply?

2. (Yes, airless water is listed as a magical danger, because generally it takes magic to generate it. That doesn't mean it can't model what would happen to water-breathing creatures in a situation where water has been nonmagically deprived of molecular oxygen.)

1. Fair point. Using Air Breathing to breathe non-oxygen related Air is by RAW allowable but it is pretty ridiculous.

2. Regarding Airless Water...this is a case of specific trumps general Airless Water does not model deoxygenated air. It's not mundane, in the same way that Airy Water, it's opposite, is not mundane. Regardless, this is irrelevant.

The text of Water Breathing reads, as I pointed out, that characters may breathe water freely. By the text of the spell, the transmuted PC's are no longer oxygen dependent. They are oxygen OR water dependent. When a creature affected by Water Breathing takes in water, they're not extracting oxygen from the water. They're extracting water from water. Airless Water represents a specific exception.

If Water Breathing read, The transmuted PC's may breathe normally in water, then the PC's would still be oxygen dependent, because normal breathing for PC's requires oxygen. That's not the way the spell reads. The spell specifically reads that you may breathe water in place of air.

By simple reading of the spell, using a Waterskin to recycle and breathe non-magical water would be an effective counter. It's well within the parameters of what a 3rd level spell should permit. It works by RAW.

[Cartigan]

It works by RAW but in so doing you have invalidated your entire argument and this is bloody pointless.

If by RAW Water Breathing lets you breath any water and Air Breathing lets you breathe any air, then you DON'T NEED THE SPELLS because PCs can BREATHE THE AIR ANYWAY regardless of oxygen content and the OP's scenario is inapplicable!

Now stop the idiotic RAW spell reasoning and say something useful.

[Greenish]

say something useful.Summon an air elemental with, say, SNA, and then breathe it? :smallcool:

[Cartigan]

Summon an air elemental with, say, SNA, and then breathe it? :smallcool:

This is somehow less ridiculous. And also what I was thinking - provided you skip over the more obvious magic items that let you breathe anywhere or spells that just put you in a different plane of existence.

Obviously, you open a gate to the Plane of Oxygen.

[Gullintanni]

If by RAW Water Breathing lets you breath any water and Air Breathing lets you breathe any air, then you DON'T NEED THE SPELLS because PCs can BREATHE THE AIR ANYWAY regardless of oxygen content and the OP's scenario is inapplicable!


I'm not sure where the vitriol is coming from. I'm trying to suggest a practical solution to the OPs problem, that every party can easily accomplish. Even assuming that Air is (O2 + N + etc) and that basic physics apply in RAW land, which I'm willing to concede, then my point still stands even if you take that into consideration.

If you treat Air and Water as constants:

Air (O2 + N)
Water (H2O)

Then in the ops scenario, the Air is no longer (O2 + N) and so Air Breathing wouldn't apply.

Water Breathing allows you to breathe H2O instead of O2+N. As long as the water in your waterskin is H2O, then the spell will allow you to breathe it. Given that there are no rules for removal of the Oxygen from the Water, then there's really nothing to debate.

The problem you're having is in the notion that Water Breathing allows the transmuted PC a new medium through which to absorb Oxygen. It doesn't. It allows you to breathe Water. An entirely different substance. Assuming the Air to which Air Breathing refers to is in fact (O2 + N), then it wouldn't let you breathe anything except (O2+N), and therefore would not work in this case, while Water Breathing would. You just have to bring your own water.

[Cog]

Common environmental water is H2O + O2 in the same way that air is N2 + O2.

[Gullintanni]

Common environmental water is H2O + O2 in the same way that air is N2 + O2.

That's fine. You're still carrying H2O + O2 in your waterskin. And absent rules to suggest that the O2 is depleted by breathing it using the spell, you've effectively got an infinite rebreather for as long as your spell is active.

[Cog]

That's fine. You're still carrying H2O + O2 in your waterskin. And absent rules to suggest that the O2 is depleted by breathing it using the spell, you've effectively got an infinite rebreather for as long as your spell is active.
And absent rules to suggest burning a fire depletes atmospheric oxygen, there's effectively no problem for the PCs in this dungeon.

If you don't want to play by the rules of the thread, why post?

[Cartigan]

I'm not sure where the vitriol is coming from. I'm trying to suggest a practical solution to the OPs problem
Indeed you are, but your argumental basis ends up voiding the problem therefore voiding the need for the argument to even exist.


If you treat Air and Water as constants:

Air (O2 + N)
Water (H2O)

Then in the ops scenario, the Air is no longer (O2 + N) and so Air Breathing wouldn't apply.

Water Breathing allows you to breathe H2O instead of O2+N. As long as the water in your waterskin is H2O, then the spell will allow you to breathe it. Given that there are no rules for removal of the Oxygen from the Water, then there's really nothing to debate.
Ok, so you stick a fishbowl on your head full of water and make it watertight, then cast water breathing. Right.

The entire premise of this dilemma is oxygen has been naturally removed from air. Similarly, the DM is likely to therefore rule that you can breathe up all the oxygen in the water. Just open a gate to somewhere with air. Or get 1 of a myriad items that lets you breathe anywhere. Or a myriad other ridiculous yet less so solutions.

[Greenish]

This is somehow less ridiculous.But would you asphyxiate when the summoning runs out of duration… :smallconfused:

[Cartigan]

But would you asphyxiate when the summoning runs out of duration… :smallconfused:
You have to hold your breath until you can summon another obviously. Or have the reserve summoning feat.

[Killer Angel]

What were the drowning rules - 2*Con score? So they have 20 or so rounds, minimum,

Are this numbers valid, even if they didn't hold their breath before entering?
If you're not holding the breath, you'd need desperately air since the first round.

EDIT: on the question, not only isn't too difficult for a group of lev. 18, but even if it was... if I were a player, I would be pleased by the "smartness" of my adversary and of the DM. Go for it. :smallwink:

[Gullintanni]

And absent rules to suggest burning a fire depletes atmospheric oxygen, there's effectively no problem for the PCs in this dungeon.

If you don't want to play by the rules of the thread, why post?

The DM is making use of rule zero to create a scenario where air doesn't exist in his dungeon. The how is irrelevant. The DM has created a rule where one did not previously exist. If the DM sees fit to create a corresponding rule denying the party the means to solve the problem using the spell, then I'm playing by the rules just fine.

The basis of my suggestion is not that Water Breathing grants the party an infinite supply of oxygen, but rather that Water Breathing grants the party something other than oxygen to breathe...namely water.

Air and Water both contain Oxygen. The DM has created a situation where fire has deprived an area of Oxygen. If the DM wants to rule that breathing the water in a skin via the spell depletes the Oxygen, then that's fine. But this is all house rule territory. It's legitimate, but my solution works by RAW.

That much is clear. Why there's so much resistance to the idea, I'm not entirely certain. The bottom line is that spell casting doesn't HAVE to obey the laws of physics. That's the point. If a simple spell modifies physics to solve the problem then so be it. Water Breathing allows you to breathe water. Bring your own water, and you can breathe. Where's the harm?

It's not even abusive. It means that your party members need to take actions in combat to raise the waterskin to their lips, inhale, exhale and then return to combat. It means every party member needs a hand free, so it's not even an optimal solution. It's just a means of surviving until the party can find a better solution.

[Cartigan]

Air and Water both contain Oxygen. The DM has created a situation where fire has deprived an area of Oxygen. If the DM wants to rule that breathing the water in a skin via the spell depletes the Oxygen, then that's fine. But this is all house rule territory. It's legitimate, but my solution works by RAW.

You are arguing RAW in the face of a thread where a counter-RAW real-world style scenario is being used. Your argument is therefore the most ridiculous.

[Gullintanni]

Indeed you are, but your argumental basis ends up voiding the problem therefore voiding the need for the argument to even exist.


Ok, so you stick a fishbowl on your head full of water and make it watertight, then cast water breathing. Right.

The entire premise of this dilemma is oxygen has been naturally removed from air. Similarly, the DM is likely to therefore rule that you can breathe up all the oxygen in the water. Just open a gate to somewhere with air. Or get 1 of a myriad items that lets you breathe anywhere. Or a myriad other ridiculous yet less so solutions.

I fail to see why this is such an inflammatory solution to you. Dragon Magazine issue 314 contains a spell called Air Bubble which does EXACTLY this. It creates a Bubble of Air around your head...in my solution, instead of using a Bubble of Air, you're creating a Bubble of Water that you can breathe as if it were air.

Frankly, if I were the DM in this case, I'd be proud of my players quick thinking...naturally if the DM in this scenario wants to rule that they'd deplete the supply of oxygen in this case eventually, fine. The DM would be free to create rules for it. That'd be a fair assessment of things in my opinion. Nevertheless, this is a valid tactic.


You are arguing RAW in the face of a thread where a counter-RAW real-world style scenario is being used. Your argument is therefore the most ridiculous.

I agree, that this is a real-world style scenario...but using a spell is in no way congruous to ANY real world style scenario. The spell effect itself allows you to breathe water for the spell's duration. The spell is, in this case, telling the laws of physics to go cry in a corner until it finishes its business.

I'm confronting a real world style problem with a spell. If "a wizard did it" is a ridiculous option in 3.5 DnD, then I'm being ridiculous.

[Cartigan]

I fail to see why this is such an inflammatory solution to you. Dragon Magazine issue 314 contains a spell called Air Bubble which does EXACTLY this. It creates a Bubble of Air around your head...in my solution, instead of using a Bubble of Air, you're creating a Bubble of Water that you can breathe as if it were air.
No, you are using water to try and breathe - the magical solution is the ability to breathe water, not the generation of breathable water.


I agree, that this is a real-world style scenario...but using a spell is in no way congruous to ANY real world style scenario.
Except it IS when the spell has nothing to do with fixing the scenario. You aren't creating a bubble of air to breathe. Or creating air directly in your lungs. Your argument is ENTIRELY that a spell would allow you to breathe BECAUSE the spell does not explicitly state how you breathe. In a scenario where how you breathe IS the scenario. Your solution isn't a spell - it's semantics.


I'm confronting a real world style problem with a spell. If "a wizard did it" is a ridiculous option in 3.5 DnD, then I'm being ridiculous.
EVERYONE is being ridiculous. You are being the most ridiculous by arguing against the scenario's existence with RAW. It isn't "A Wizard did it"; it's "A player with a Wizard character read the rules letting a Wizard do it."

[Gullintanni]

Alright so let's presuppose this then:

I am an aquatic creature that breathes water.
I am on land.
I brought a tank of water with me.

Can I plunge my head in and breathe?

[Cartigan]

Alright so let's presuppose this then:

I am an aquatic creature that breathes water.
I am on land.
I brought a tank of water with me.

Can I plunge my head in and breathe?

You are progressively changing your argument after I objected to the use of beneficial RAW reading to make the scenario null in and of itself instead of through counteraction.

On the bent of your NEW argument: Sure, you can breathe then. Until the oxygen runs out.

[Gullintanni]

You are progressively changing your argument after I objected to the use of beneficial RAW reading to make the scenario null in and of itself instead of through counteraction.

On the bent of your NEW argument: Sure, you can breathe then. Until the oxygen runs out.

Actually it's the exact same argument.

Presuppose the following:

I am not an aquatic creature.
I am on land.
There is no oxygen in the air.
I cast spell, Water Breathing, allowing me to breathe Water.
I bring my own Water.

Can I plunge me head in and breathe.

By the logic above yes. The question now is duration.

Per Water Breathing, am I still breathing Oxygen?

If yes, depending on the intent of the DM, no further ruling necessary, OR create an ad hoc rule to limit duration based on the perceived amount of oxygen in the accompanying water.

Or,

No, you're breathing water, not oxygen. No further ruling necessary.

[Cog]

I fail to see why this is such an inflammatory solution to you. Dragon Magazine issue 314 contains a spell called Air Bubble which does EXACTLY this. It creates a Bubble of Air around your head...in my solution, instead of using a Bubble of Air, you're creating a Bubble of Water that you can breathe as if it were air.
Except that one spell says it can be used for that purpose, and is in fact intended to be used for that purpose, and the other doesn't/isn't. Leaving creatures breathe. Breathing requires metabolism. Metabolism depletes some chemicals in favor of generating other chemicals. Even if water-breathing is somehow not dependent on oxygen, it's not breathing unless there's some sort of chemical exchange involved, and in a closed system as you've described, any chemical exchange, no matter what kind, will deplete the chemical it is converting.

Frankly, if I were the DM in this case, I'd be proud of my players quick thinking...
You'd be happy if they came to the same conclusion you did? Well, duh.

I agree, that this is a real-world style scenario...but using a spell is in no way congruous to ANY real world style scenario. The spell effect itself allows you to breathe water for the spell's duration. The spell is, in this case, telling the laws of physics to go cry in a corner until it finishes its business.
And it does so in specific ways. Just because a spell lets you do one thing you can't normally do doesn't let you do other thing you can't normally do. Just because Jump lets your tiny little wizard muscles launch you improbably high into the air does not mean that casting Jump means you can fly, or jump to the moon, or anything like that. Spells break the game's other rules in the way they state they do and no more.

[ILM]

Personally, if I were playing a level 18 character and things started to look like I was going to have to take a Lich in its home base, I'd scry the f**k out of the place. Hell, if it turned out an airless chamber was all the Lich had in store for us, I'd probably think my scrying had failed because there's no way a high-level baddie like that doesn't have more tricks up his sleeve. But maybe that's just the paranoid adventurer going up against an undead creation of unspeakable evil speaking.

[Killer Angel]

On the bent of your NEW argument: Sure, you can breathe then. Until the oxygen runs out.

You can put it the way you want, but Water Breathing + tank of water, let you survive and move in the enviroment of the OP.
You argue the duration is limited? fine, even Guillintanni suggested this spell, as an emergency solution.
Where's the problem?

[Cog]

You argue the duration is limited? fine, even Guillintanni suggested this spell, as an emergency solution.
Where's the problem?
The problem is that he's considering it an unlimited (except by Water Breathing's duration) solution.

Try holding a plastic bag tight across your face and see how long you can breathe. (Actually, don't try it. You get the idea, though.)

[Gullintanni]

1. Breathing requires metabolism. Metabolism depletes some chemicals in favor of generating other chemicals. Even if water-breathing is somehow not dependent on oxygen, it's not breathing unless there's some sort of chemical exchange involved, and in a closed system as you've described, any chemical exchange, no matter what kind, will deplete the chemical it is converting.

You'd be happy if they came to the same conclusion you did? Well, duh.

2. And it does so in specific ways. Just because a spell lets you do one thing you can't normally do doesn't let you do other thing you can't normally do. Just because Jump lets your tiny little wizard muscles launch you improbably high into the air does not mean that casting Jump means you can fly, or jump to the moon, or anything like that. Spells break the game's other rules in the way they state they do and no more.

1. Yes I understand the principle that there is a chemical exchange here. In which case you could easily rule that Water Breathing depleted the Water or the oxygen levels therein. What I'm saying is that there's no RAW for that. It's not a subtlety that DnD cares about. If the DM wants to introduce that, then by all means. I'm just stating that as written that's not the case.

2. Nothing I've suggested about the use of the Water Breathing spell raises it to the level of absurdity as claiming that Jump allows you to Fly. All I've suggested is that Water Breathing allows you to breathe water, and if you brought your own water, you can breathe it. Rules about duration currently don't exist in the RAW.

[Cartigan]

Actually it's the exact same argument.

Presuppose the following:

I am not an aquatic creature.
I am on land.
There is no oxygen in the air.
I cast spell, Water Breathing, allowing me to breathe Water.
I bring my own Water.

Can I plunge me head in and breathe.

By the logic above yes. The question now is duration.

Per Water Breathing, am I still breathing Oxygen?

If yes, depending on the intent of the DM, no further ruling necessary, OR create an ad hoc rule to limit duration based on the perceived amount of oxygen in the accompanying water.

Or,

No, you're breathing water, not oxygen. No further ruling necessary.
I was fooled into believing you were abandoning your original argument. Apparently you aren't.

Let me repeat this for you: Your argument is entirely based on RAW; you aren't countering the scenario with a spell. You are interpreting rules wordings in your favor to counter the scenario. However, you have STILL failed to realize that this does not work, AT ALL, because by RAW the scenario can't exist. You are arguing a beneficial RAW reading as a counter to a RAI DM-created scenario that replaces the RAW you are citing.

[Gullintanni]

The problem is that he's considering it an unlimited (except by Water Breathing's duration) solution.

Try holding a plastic bag tight across your face and see how long you can breathe. (Actually, don't try it. You get the idea, though.)

Specifically I'm stating that it's an unlimited duration owing to the fact that there is no RAW to support oxygen or chemical depletion. I understand the logic of it and the DM can create the house rule.

[Cartigan]

You can put it the way you want, but Water Breathing + tank of water, let you survive and move in the enviroment of the OP.
You argue the duration is limited? fine, even Guillintanni suggested this spell, as an emergency solution.
Where's the problem?

His logic is the problem. As I have explained multiple times.

[Killer Angel]

Personally, if I were playing a level 18 character and things started to look like I was going to have to take a Lich in its home base, I'd scry the f**k out of the place.

With a mere Scry (assuming that it works in the Lich's lair) you cannot distinguish airless places.
You need divination (ala contact other planes) and specific questions.

[Gullintanni]

I was fooled into believing you were abandoning your original argument. Apparently you aren't.

Let me repeat this for you: Your argument is entirely based on RAW; you aren't countering the scenario with a spell. You are interpreting rules wordings in your favor to counter the scenario. However, you have STILL failed to realize that this does not work, AT ALL, because by RAW the scenario can't exist. You are arguing a beneficial RAW reading as a counter to a RAI DM-created scenario that replaces the RAW you are citing.


The OP doesn't argue AT ALL that Water Breathing won't allow you to breathe the water you brought with you. All the OP has given us is that the oxygen in this cave has been depleted by fire, therefore the players can't breathe in there.

If you bring oxygen WITH you, IE. in the form of water and water breathing spell, then you can breathe. The element in dispute in duration. Assuming NO RAW for oxygen depletion in the water the party brings with them, then there is NO OXYGEN DEPLETION.

If the OP wants to present rules FOR oxygen depletion in the water the party brought with them, fine, but at this point, he has not given us rules to that effect and they can not, therefore, be assumed. All we know is that its possible, and logically consistent, that the OP will put out rules to that effect.

[Cog]

Specifically I'm stating that it's an unlimited duration owing to the fact that there is no RAW to support oxygen or chemical depletion. I understand the logic of it and the DM can create the house rule.
As I've pointed out earlier, RAW you are supposed to assume that the fundamentals of the real world hold true. Encyclopedia of minutiae included with every edition, breathing is metabolism by definition, etc., etc.

[Cartigan]

Assuming NO RAW for oxygen depletion in the water the party brings with them, then there is NO OXYGEN DEPLETION.

This is the problem. The entire problem.
You are arguing you can't deplete oxygen because there is no RAW for it so you can breathe it for somewhere else. And you are doing this counter to a scenario where oxygen has been depleted by mundane non-RAW means.

It's absurd on its face.

Obviously what we should do is just fill the entire cave with water by opening a gate to the elemental plane of water. Or would you have to go there and open a gate back? Ah, who cares, they are level 18+.

[Gullintanni]

As I've pointed out earlier, RAW you are supposed to assume that the fundamentals of the real world hold true. Encyclopedia of minutiae included with every edition, breathing is metabolism by definition, etc., etc.

That's fine. The problem is that in the absence of RAW, in order to enforce the fundamentals of physics in this case, you have to either do the calculations to see how much oxygen would be present in a given volume of water...or assign an arbitrary value.

The former of which would be RAW correct, the latter of which would be an ad hoc rule assignment.

[Killer Angel]

The problem is that he's considering it an unlimited (except by Water Breathing's duration) solution.


Ah, I see. I must have missed the thing.
I would say "the duration is DM's call".


Try holding a plastic bag tight across your face and see how long you can breathe.

Cool! an experiment!


(Actually, don't try it. You get the idea, though.)

coff... coff... coff.. too late...

[Gullintanni]

This is the problem. The entire problem.
You are arguing you can't deplete oxygen because there is no RAW for it so you can breathe it for somewhere else. And you are doing this counter to a scenario where oxygen has been depleted by mundane non-RAW means.

Obviously what we should do is just fill the entire cave with water by opening a gate to the elemental plane of water. Or would you have to go there and open a gate back? Ah, who cares, they are level 18+.

The scenario is not that it's impossible to have oxygen in this cave, just that the existing oxygen there has been eliminated. If you brought in your own oxygen, or in this case opened a gate to the elemental plane of water, filling the cave with oxygen rich water, then that oxygen wouldn't magically disappear.

Again, my goal is to provide a solution. One of many possible emergency solutions to throw off the back of your hand when you notice, "Oh god I can't breathe". It's particularly elegant because of the low resource investment and because EVERY party will have SOME water with them, which means that assuming they have Water Breathing prepared, they have a temporary solution on some level.

[Cartigan]

The scenario is not that it's impossible to have oxygen in this cave, just that the existing oxygen there has been eliminated. If you brought in your own oxygen, or in this case opened a gate to the elemental plane of water, filling the cave with oxygen rich water, then that oxygen wouldn't magically disappear.
It didn't magically disappear in the first place. It was used up.


Again, my goal is to provide a solution.
By ignoring the patently obvious RAI created by the DM.

[Gullintanni]

Ah, I see. I must have missed the thing.
I would say "the duration is DM's call".


For clarification, I argued that there's RAW to support unlimited duration...limited by the spell, rather. I have; however, ceded that given this particular case, it would be logical for this particular use of the spell to inherit from house rule that gave birth to the scenario, resulting in a duration based on the perceived level of oxygen in the water the party brought along.

[Gullintanni]

It didn't magically disappear in the first place. It was used up.


By ignoring the patently obvious RAI created by the DM.

No, by bringing New Oxygen with you in the form of water. You know, a separate volume of oxygen that hadn't been eradicated by the fires the lich created. The ORIGINAL oxygen in this cave is gone. If you bring more with you, then you can use it.

[Cartigan]

No, by bringing New Oxygen with you in the form of water. You know, a separate volume of oxygen that hadn't been eradicated by the fires the lich created. The ORIGINAL oxygen in this cave is gone. If you bring more with you, then you can use it.
Which you would then use up.

[Gullintanni]

Which you would then use up.

How quickly? On what would you base your numbers? Would you do the math to determine how much oxygen exists in the water you've brought with you, based on the volume of water that your waterskin holds?

This would be the logic based solution.

Would you assign an arbitrary number of rounds for which you could exercise this function?

This would be the house rule.

Or would you simply make an assumption, the same way that encumbrance and falling damage do, and simply assume that in order to avoid house rules, and in order to avoid bogging down the game in needless math, you simply assume that you can breathe for the time being and proceed with gaming.

3.5 DnD makes a ton of assumptions and generalizations in order to expedite gameplay, and it's on that basis that I argued that there is no RAW for oxygen depletion. There simply isn't. If, as Cog suggests, you ought to inherit from reality where at all possible, then this scenario requires needless complication or an arbitrary ruling.

All perspectives are valid. Regardless, my solution allows you to have either an unlimited supply of oxygen for the spell's duration, or enough oxygen for a few minutes of game time, in order for the party to collect their thoughts, strategize and move forward.

The OP would likely prefer the latter option, and that's fine. Nevertheless, my solution does what it's supposed to. Avoid immediate TPK (or possibly long term-depending on DM ruling) while the party collects itself and prepares a more permanent strategy.

[Cartigan]

How quickly? On what would you base your numbers? Would you do the math to determine how much oxygen exists in the water you've brought with you, based on the volume of water that your waterskin holds?

This would be the logic based solution.

Would you assign an arbitrary number of rounds for which you could exercise this function?

This would be the house rule.
A houserule is already being used to create the scenario - a houserule of using up oxygen.


Avoid immediate TPK (or possibly long term-depending on DM ruling) while the party collects itself and prepares a more permanent strategy.
It wouldn't be a TPK anyway; if they can get in, they can get out before they suffocate.

[Gullintanni]

A houserule is already being used to create the scenario - a houserule of using up oxygen.

It wouldn't be a TPK anyway; if they can get in, they can get out before they suffocate.

The house rule created is that fire depletes oxygen. Fire also depletes oxygen much faster than breathing, to such a degree that breathing may be, in the OP's opinion, a negligible draw on the oxygen supply. If the OP wants to extend the houserule in order impose a limit on the party's self-contained oxygen supply, then that's at his option. You'll have to forgive me for not making any assumptions on the OP's behalf.

And yes, I'm aware that the OP's party will survive with more than enough time to adapt. The thrust of my argument though, now that I may finally approach it, is that any party that can cast 3rd level spells can circumvent, at least to some degree, the challenge that's been imposed on them, and that navigating around this particular problem is trivial.

[olthar]

I don't think I understand this argument. Water breathing + breathing your waterskin seems an elegant solution.

I'd then ask "how does waterbreathing allow you to breathe water?" If you breathe water the same way that you breathe air, then "drinking" some water would allow you to act that around. If you breathe water through the creation of gills (like harry potter's gillyweed) then you would need to splash water over yourself, but you could still get some breath. If water breathing allows you to absorb oxygen through your skin, then you're still in trouble (until somoene casts create water, precipitation, cloudburst, or any number of water/weather related spells)

The reason I bring up the mechanic of breathing water is that it invalidates duration arguments. You're discussing the mechanic of breathing forever using a waterskin, but in all of the scenarios I imagined you are using up the water as you breathe it.

[Lhurgyof]

What were the drowning rules - 2*Con score? So they have 20 or so rounds, minimum, to remember that breathing is a thing, teleport out and come back with necklaces of adaptation.
That's when you have enemies sunder their necklaces (give extra loot to compensate, but at this point that money means nothing). I hope they brought extras!

Its only 2 x con if you are prepared and take a deep breath.

[Greenish]

How quickly? On what would you base your numbers? Would you do the math to determine how much oxygen exists in the water you've brought with you, based on the volume of water that your waterskin holds?Assume fresh water holds 6 ppm of dissolved oxygen (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03339.htm).

Assume waterskin holds a gallon of water (googling claims the Dark Sun 2e had the value).

Assume hard working person requires 225 mol/d (http://members.shaw.ca/omjhooge/Unusual%20Numbers/how_much_oxygen_for_a_person.htm).

Do back-of-the-envelope calculations:

A waterskin will have 55.6^-5 mol (that is 0.0000556 mol) of dissolved oxygen.

A hard-working person (such as one fighting) will require 0.015625 mol per round (6 sec.).


Not looking good for our brave adventurers.

[Edit]: The crossed out number is actually moles of air in a litre of water. A gallon would have 2.526^-4 mol (0.0002526 mol). My bad.

[Gullintanni]

Do back-of-the-envelope calculations:

A waterskin will have 55.6^-5 mol (that is 0.0000556 mol) of dissolved oxygen.

A hard-working person (such as one fighting) will require 0.015625 mol per round (6 sec.).


Not looking good for our brave adventurers.

[Edit]: The crossed out number is actually moles of air in a litre of water. A gallon would have 2.526^-4 mol (0.0002526 mol). My bad.

Assuming your calculations are correct, and my interpretation thereof is ALSO correct, if one of our adventurers ingested the ENTIRE waterskin in one gulp, then they still wouldn't have enough oxygen to survive one round.

Assuming this is correct then, and given that I'm fairly certain human lungs can not hold one gallon of water...then even if there were a veritable ocean of water, our adventurers would choke and die simply because they could not inhale enough water to meet their oxygen saturation needs. Is that correct?

If that's the case, then perhaps Water Breathing is intended to override the science here, as spells are won't to do? :smallwink:

[ILM]

With a mere Scry (assuming that it works in the Lich's lair) you cannot distinguish airless places.
You need divination (ala contact other planes) and specific questions.
Oh sure, I didn't mean just the Scry spell. I'd totally go all out on divinations. :smallwink:

[Greenish]

If that's the case, then perhaps Water Breathing is intended to override the science here, as spells are won't to do? :smallwink:http://www.streampocket.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Well-Played-Sir.jpg

[Edit]: Though my maths were off (I haven't slept for about 24 hours now). Water has 6ppm, but I somehow just used 1ppm. The right number would be 1.52^-4 mol per gallon. Still, you'd need to breathe in about 1.7 gallons a second to get enough oxygen.

[Killer Angel]

Oh sure, I didn't mean just the Scry spell. I'd totally go all out on divinations. :smallwink:

Let's take That Damn Lich! :smallbiggrin:

[Gullintanni]

http://www.streampocket.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Well-Played-Sir.jpg


This made my day. Fan-tastic!

[Killer Angel]

Oh sure, I didn't mean just the Scry spell. I'd totally go all out on divinations. :smallwink:

Let's take That Damn Lich! :smallbiggrin:

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I play Spelljammer, where the threat of suffocation is something PCs have to worry about nearly constantly. Given my own peculiar mortal terror of water, ensuring that my characters are able to breathe is one of my highest priorities.


- The dungeon is very very deep underwater and filled with pure nitrogen. The party gets to deal with issues such as the bends from teleporting from one pressure level to another abruptly, nitrogen narcosis, etc. Necklaces of Adaptation don't help against the pressure here either.


This necklace is a heavy chain with a platinum medallion. The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum.

It seems to me that if the necklace of adaptation wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, even in a vacuum, it would have to regulate the wearer's atmospheric pressure.

A helm of underwater action, despite being more expensive, notes that only the helmet is filled with air... so the dangers of atmospheric pressure would apply normally. Seems almost backward to me.

[Cartigan]

This thread is being weird

[Karoht]

Question: Is an oxygenless environment too challenging?
Short Answer: No, there are spells and items they can use.

Are there any ways to use this one mechanic to make it more fun? Absolutely.

If there is a room with an AMF active, that could make for an interesting fight or two. Obviously not the first room they enter, but maybe the 2nd or 3rd.

Also, one of the rooms, I would have them roll for exposure to disease. Namely anerobic bacteria and mold/fungi. Nothing super deadly, at least not for several days, but something that might weaken them for the short term. Homebrew something there.

Now, if the party features something like a Druid, who figures out how to force some plants to grow in these conditions, they can start converting the CO2 back into O2. May not be relevant, but something to consider that your party might somehow figure out. You might want a bad thing to happen if the place gets flooded with oxygen (depending on the success of the druid growing something or other) though that's up to you as well.

Best of luck.

[Kantolin]

I agree with what I believe is the majority that this is probably solveable unless you know your teleporter can only do it once.

If he can only do it once, then they're likely to be in trouble. If they can do it even twice, they're probably fine - they'll port in, gag, port out and have to find a better solution.

I'm kind of amused by the 'If they can't handle it, they don't deserve to be level 18' responses, though. I mean what, "Sorry, none of you decided that a necklace of adaptation was a good idea, you all die! Hahaha game over! Okay, who wants to DM next?"

I'm sure you could do that with a ton of other situational spells/items/abilities too. ^_^

[NichG]

So given that the dissolved oxygen is too little to support a creature of human size and oxygen consumption that is using lungs (due to capacity), it suggests that the water breathing spell would work more by mechanism of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen (in which case, the density of available O2 should be much higher in liquid water than in gaseous air). You could re-figure the numbers for freeing all the O2 in a waterskin I guess?

Of course this has the added implication that you're constantly generating highly flammable H2 gas when you use the water breathing spell.

Also, as far as the shell of air in a Necklace of Adapation, I figure that in a vacuum the necklace provides positive pressure enough to constantly refresh the shell against outflow (i.e. all of the pressure is being provided by the necklace). I'm not sure how the necklace would insulate you from high pressure, since either forces are going to be transmitted through the air shell or you're going to get constant inflow (and that inflow has to go somewhere unless the necklace is implementing Disintegrate or Gate somehow).

It always comes down to the mechanism you assume for how it works I guess :smallsmile:

[TheCoelacanth]

So given that the dissolved oxygen is too little to support a creature of human size and oxygen consumption that is using lungs (due to capacity), it suggests that the water breathing spell would work more by mechanism of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen (in which case, the density of available O2 should be much higher in liquid water than in gaseous air). You could re-figure the numbers for freeing all the O2 in a waterskin I guess?

Of course this has the added implication that you're constantly generating highly flammable H2 gas when you use the water breathing spell.


I think it's more likely that it works by extracting the oxygen from a larger volume of water, much like actual animals who breath in water do.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Also, as far as the shell of air in a Necklace of Adapation, I figure that in a vacuum the necklace provides positive pressure enough to constantly refresh the shell against outflow (i.e. all of the pressure is being provided by the necklace).

I figure it works like in Spelljammer. It refreshes your personal air bubble and keeps anything else-- like water-- from replacing it. What I'm trying to figure out is how it protects you from poisonous gases, but doesn't protect you from gaseous acids like a green dragon's breath weapon.

[NichG]

I figure it works like in Spelljammer. It refreshes your personal air bubble and keeps anything else-- like water-- from replacing it. What I'm trying to figure out is how it protects you from poisonous gases, but doesn't protect you from gaseous acids like a green dragon's breath weapon.

If the Necklace maintains a slight positive pressure compared to the environment, it'd protect you against ambient gasses but not against things projected with force like a breath weapon.

[Greenish]

I agree with what I believe is the majority that this is probably solveable unless you know your teleporter can only do it once.Well, one would assume that the party planned leaving the cave too. Who voluntarily cuts one's only route of escape?

I'm kind of amused by the 'If they can't handle it, they don't deserve to be level 18' responses, though. I mean what, "Sorry, none of you decided that a necklace of adaptation was a good idea, you all die! Hahaha game over! Okay, who wants to DM next?"I don't mean that. I mean that at level 18 they have so many options on how to handle the situation that it should be a minor speed bump, and if they don't, it means their grasp of the game isn't that good, and they'd be better off at lower levels where enemies can be handled with straightforward sword-in-the-head.

A lich is an intelligent ancient spellcaster, and should be played as such for the sake of verisimilitude, IMO.

[SartheKobold]

This is the problem. The entire problem.
You are arguing you can't deplete oxygen because there is no RAW for it so you can breathe it for somewhere else. And you are doing this counter to a scenario where oxygen has been depleted by mundane non-RAW means.

It's absurd on its face.

Obviously what we should do is just fill the entire cave with water by opening a gate to the elemental plane of water. Or would you have to go there and open a gate back? Ah, who cares, they are level 18+.

DMG actually does have Rules for deoxygenating areas with fire.


Slow Suffocation

A Medium character can breathe easily for 6 hours in a sealed chamber measuring 10 feet on a side. After that time, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage every 15 minutes. Each additional Medium character or significant fire source (a torch, for example) proportionally reduces the time the air will last. When a character falls unconscious from this nonlethal damage, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the next round, she suffocates.

Small characters consume half as much air as Medium characters. A larger volume of air, of course, lasts for a longer time.

[Kylarra]

1D6 nonlethal every 15 minutes is probably cake for an 18th level party.

[Metahuman1]

Drop hints that if might be wise too be ready to haul ass out of there again, perhaps drop a subtle hint as to what the environment is like in the lair. If there too Cocky to have an exit strategy in case things go bad or they get nailed with one or more unpleasant surprises once they get in there, then they deserve the TPK. If they do have a plan to bail out, then when they get in there, let them figure out it's a F.U.B.A.R. situation, and get the hell out of dodge, then get the gear they need to survive the environment next time.

But next time, becuase they got in once already, have additional Nastiness ready for them, since a Lich smart enough to get his lair decked out like that would doubtless be smart enough to have more surprises ready in case the same group came back to threaten him again but with the resorses to survive his normal defenses. Bad guys who are good Bad Guys usually have at least one or two Contingency plans for everything after all.

[Karoht]

*port in*
*start coughing, can't breathe properly*
*Cast Breathe Without Air, else cast Silent Breathe Without Air, which I should be able to cast if I'm coughing or not. Fort save to not cough long enough, maybe an increased Concentration check or something equally relevant*
*Find party member who teleported us here. If also coughing, cast Breathe Without Air*
*If there is enough castings available of Breathe Without Air to go around, cast it on the entire party. Else, Teleport out*
*Upon reaching town, search for a more long term solution, or prepare more castings of Breathe Without Air and try again the following day*

If the party can not figure this out, I have to ask how they got to level 18 in the first place?

At level 18, there are many ways to handle a lack of air. At level 18 you could probably survive in space for a few rounds (if not a few minutes or possibly even hours) if you were smart about it. So an underground area with no air? Yeah, I'm really not worried.