Level 100 Battle

[Marthinwurer]

Me and my brother (Both of us new to D&D) are thinking of having a battle between a wizard and a psion, both level 100. Neither one of us optimize characters, due to the fact that we just started playing, and I am thinking of the feasability of the concept. I am ruining wiz 60/ warblade 20/ rog 20. We only have core, epic level handbook, psionic handbook, and ToB. Any advice, or are we both stupid?

[LOTRfan]

Level 100? :smalleek:

The game is well beyond broken, at that point.

Is epic spellcasting allowed?

[Drakevarg]

I am ruining wiz 60/ warblade 20/ rog 20.

Choice of words: intentional or no? Either way, amusing.

Anywho, sounds like rocket tag. Whoever rolls higher on Init wins.

[Studoku]

At level 100 it's perfectly feasible to create an epic spell that simply makes you win* (using an army of chin-gated solars to keep the DC down. The Psion can probably do the same.

*Not win the battle- just win existence.

[Aemoh87]

Yeah this is pointless. At first I though that maybe it would just be rocket tag... But then I realized how high your saves could be. So it's more like rock paper scissors and I think a melee class might be best.

Also pump your Con, with so many hit dice each little boost goes a long ways. One could easily get an extra 1k health with a decent Con and a Con item. Evasion and Mettle are also musts.

Avoid saves, SR and AC are a joke so they are game.

[Marthinwurer]

There is no epic spellcasting. Ruining was a typo. Some additional info: we are homebrewing that you get the highest BAB from all your classes, ie. I get warblade BAB, not wizard, there are no save-or die effects, and we are using a homebrew spell points system.

Edit: I have a con score of 24, or +7. It gets me a few Hit Points.

[Aemoh87]

There is no epic spellcasting. Ruining was a typo. Some additional info: we are homebrewing that you get the highest BAB from all your classes, ie. I get warblade BAB, not wizard, there are no save-or die effects, and we are using a homebrew spell points system.

Edit: I have a con score of 24, or +7. It gets me a few Hit Points.

Do you get the saves from all your classes?

[Marthinwurer]

Do you get the saves from all your classes?

Yes, we do.

[SurlySeraph]

It will take forever to make the characters, not be much fun, and will come down to either who wins initiative first or who thought of more immunities to get. Anything higher than ECL 30 without epic spells tends to be pretty stupid, and with enough optimization skill anything above ECL 13 can also be pretty stupid; check out some of the old Test of Spite threads for thoughts on how ludicrously powerful characters can be by 13th level.

[137beth]

Yea, whoever rolls higher initiative wins. I have actually tried to make a level 100 commoner, and see how much I could do with it. Basically, it comes down to how many homebrew epic feats you can come up with:smallsmile:

[Cartigan]

Whoever ends reality first, wins.

[Marthinwurer]

Well, we were going for world-destroying power, so I guess I'm not suprised. Is there any way that we could make it so that it will take longer for us both to die going full out with attacks? From what you are saying, I'm seeing one of us downing the other in a single round. Any suggestions?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Whoever ends reality first, wins.

Yeah, basically, if you have improved initiative and the better dex bonus, you win.

[Sacrieur]

1. Summon a stone elemental as high as you can above target.

2. Cast prismatic sphere.

3. Brace for impact.

[Cartigan]

1. Summon a stone elemental as high as you can above target.

2. Cast prismatic sphere.

3. Brace for impact.
Really? Good luck with that. At level 100 you are higher level than most gods.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Really? Good luck with that. At level 100 you are higher level than most gods.

Actually, gods are 40th level, so you'd probably be able to take down an overdeity. Although Ao had the power to cast down all the gods.

[Cartigan]

Actually, gods are 40th level, so you'd probably be able to take down an overdeity. Although Ao had the power to cast down all the gods.

There are a couple around 50-60ish.

[Drakevarg]

Actually, gods are 40th level, so you'd probably be able to take down an overdeity. Although Ao had the power to cast down all the gods.

Doesn't Ao have a level of "Yes"?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Doesn't Ao have a level of "Yes"?

No, that's O-chul. :smalltongue:

[Aemoh87]

Yeah this is really nothing more than a waste of time. You could be immune to every energy type and status with ease. Most forms of offense won't even be effective if this is done right.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah this is really nothing more than a waste of time. You could be immune to every energy type and status with ease. Most forms of offense won't even be effective if this is done right.
Especially because the save-or-die effects are out.

A ring of Universal Energy Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#universalEnergyImmunity) on one hand makes someone immune to most magic-based attack forms.

In a one-off, with those restrictions, a Psion will have a slight advantage, as most Psionic powers are augmentation-based, rather than level-based (no caps), and the Psion gets Immediate actions while you don't (except for your small handful of immediate-action counters from Warblade, which will go away in short order). Mostly, though, yeah, rocket tag with really poor rockets.

[tyckspoon]

In a one-off, with those restrictions, a Psion will have a slight advantage, as most Psionic powers are augmentation-based, rather than level-based (no caps), and the Psion gets Immediate actions while you don't (except for your small handful of immediate-action counters from Warblade, which will go away in short order). Mostly, though, yeah, rocket tag with really poor rockets.

I'm gonna bet on the Psion, because within those limited sources I don't believe there's a way to become reliably immune to Crystal Shard or Concussion Blast- the Wizard's core options for non-elemental, no-save, preferably No-SR attacks of that kind are.. well, I'm pretty sure they don't exist.

[Aemoh87]

Especially because the save-or-die effects are out.

A ring of Universal Energy Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#universalEnergyImmunity) on one hand makes someone immune to most magic-based attack forms.

Save or die effects are a non issue if if they are not banned as they have 100 levels worth of saves whiles DC's barely scale at all (going up 1 per 8 levels). Items can raise the DC but not as much as items can easily raise saves. So anything that involves a save is pointless especially if characters have mettle and evasion... and they should.

If I built a character for this it would be Codzilla with tons of Initiative bonuses and a first round Time Stop followed by lots of quickened buffs and an attack on the last round after you have buffed/analyzed opponents defenses to know how to damage them.

Also epic level feats allow for stacking magic items... so you would be VERY VERY VERY well geared.

[Eldariel]

Basically, it'll come down to system mastery. The one who knows more about the system will win. Fundamentally, both parties should be immune to everything so it'll be a matter of figuring out what manners of immunities the other party is using and stripping those somehow.

Of course, if Epic Spells are unrestricted, the fight won't relevantly differ from a level 21 fight; it's a matter of who can make the more appropriate epic spells. And since those are pretty much unrestricted, it's really down to system mastery there.

[Sacrieur]

Really? Good luck with that. At level 100 you are higher level than most gods.

The prismatic sphere is to buy time for the falling rock to do its job. It deals enough damage to kill anything with a single hit.

[Halae]

Essentially? Rather than take wizard up to 60, I'd suggest taking it up to 50 to replace a few of those levels with Red Wizard. Believe me, alongside that feat that uncaps the effects of your spells, you can get some monstrous things going. My favorite is to metamagic in irresistable spell so that he gets no save or spell resistance against something, and applying caster levels of ridiculous against them. or just get those ridiculous spell levels and irresistable spell in a flesh to stone. Nohing worse than kicking someone's ass with a spell like that when you have epic level spells available, and a caster level of... what? with that many levels at your disposal, you can hit upwards of 1200 with ease, and have every single spell in your book prepared as level 9 spells. or twentieth level spells, considering how many feats you have.

After level 20, fighters, barbarians, rogues, and similar are still playing DnD. Wizards and other spellcasters have long since grown bored with shooting lightning out their asses and are just going to watch and laugh at those that are around them, safe in the knowledge that with the proper divinations (Which they have access to) they can beat even gods.

[Aemoh87]

Essentially? Rather than take wizard up to 60, I'd suggest taking it up to 50 to replace a few of those levels with Red Wizard. Believe me, alongside that feat that uncaps the effects of your spells, you can get some monstrous things going. My favorite is to metamagic in irresistable spell so that he gets no save or spell resistance against something, and applying caster levels of ridiculous against them. or just get those ridiculous spell levels and irresistable spell in a flesh to stone. Nohing worse than kicking someone's ass with a spell like that when you have epic level spells available, and a caster level of... what? with that many levels at your disposal, you can hit upwards of 1200 with ease, and have every single spell in your book prepared as level 9 spells. or twentieth level spells, considering how many feats you have.

After level 20, fighters, barbarians, rogues, and similar are still playing DnD. Wizards and other spellcasters have long since grown bored with shooting lightning out their asses and are just going to watch and laugh at those that are around them, safe in the knowledge that with the proper divinations (Which they have access to) they can beat even gods.

Even if Irresistable spell is allowed it doesn't help that characters should be immune to practically everything, especially death effects.

[NichG]

The immunities probably will not matter - there's a limit to how much you can get from items if you don't allow custom items, and nothing really stops a Disjunction from stripping off all the buffs and defenses barring epic spells, which were also stated to not be in use for this.

So the fight might go something like:

Wizard uses Celerity to win initiative, casts a quickened Disjunction followed by a quickened Disjunction in case of weird shenanigans to protect against the first such as a Contingent AMF, followed by a quickened Disjunction just to be sure (he's using Multicasting x10 and Automatic Quicken III at this level of course), followed by 9 spells designed to kill the other guy with just plain irresistable damage.

The psion probably has similar tricks, but I'm less familiar with psion trickery. Probably the fight hinges on a thirty minute long argument at the table about which 'auto-win initiative' ability trumps the other.

[Aharon]

If you're new to D&D, why not start at low levels and see what you can do? You really don't need to be Level 100 to have interesting battles, and statting them up will take ages. For a non-theoretically optimized group at high levels, look at what Douglas did here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138).

If you really intend to go through with your level 100 battle, take the numbers and multiply them by a lot :smallwink:

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

If only you had access to epic spells, or more splat books. Currently your best hope is to win Init.

[Yora]

I'm gonna bet on the Psion, because within those limited sources I don't believe there's a way to become reliably immune to Crystal Shard or Concussion Blast- the Wizard's core options for non-elemental, no-save, preferably No-SR attacks of that kind are.. well, I'm pretty sure they don't exist.

Arn't powers only capped by manifester level? Without epic spells, a wizard 100 is like a wizard 20 with a very high Int score. But as a psion 100 you can pump 100 pp into a single power.

As silly is it all is, I wonder what the stats of such characters are:
Wizard 100
Int 52 (16 base +25 to Int from Class levels, +5 tome, +6 item)
BAB +50, Fort +46, Ref +46, Will +52
hp 251 + (Con modifier * 100)
34 Feats + 30 Wizard Bonus Feats
Spells 4/10/9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/?+3/?+3/?+3/...

Psion 100
Int 52 (16 base +25 to Int from Class levels, +5 tome, +6 item)
BAB +50, Fort +46, Ref +46, Will +52
hp 251 + (Con modifier * 100)
34 Feats + 30 Wizard Bonus Feats
Powers known: 196
Power Points: 553

[Jack_Simth]

Save or die effects are a non issue if if they are not banned as they have 100 levels worth of saves whiles DC's barely scale at all (going up 1 per 8 levels).
1) Not if I use swift actions to hit you with 40 save or die effects in one round (quite doable at that level - a few copies of Automatic Quicken Spell to get 9th's Quickened, Multispell, and preparing to unload it all in one round).
2) It can actually go up much faster than that. If you focus on it, with the Epic version of Heighten and repeated use of Improved Spell Capacity, you can actually get it up by two per three levels with a pure Wizard build (up until a point). So unless the opponent is doing similar tricks to get Concentration to saves....

Items can raise the DC but not as much as items can easily raise saves. So anything that involves a save is pointless especially if characters have mettle and evasion... and they should.

Ah, but it's also much harder to have both of those with these restrictions. But yeah - focus on no-save direct-damage seems to be good advice.


If I built a character for this it would be Codzilla with tons of Initiative bonuses and a first round Time Stop followed by lots of quickened buffs and an attack on the last round after you have buffed/analyzed opponents defenses to know how to damage them.

Also epic level feats allow for stacking magic items... so you would be VERY VERY VERY well geared.
There's a number of ways to build the character, yes.

I'm gonna bet on the Psion, because within those limited sources I don't believe there's a way to become reliably immune to Crystal Shard or Concussion Blast- the Wizard's core options for non-elemental, no-save, preferably No-SR attacks of that kind are.. well, I'm pretty sure they don't exist.
The way to do so is to get out of the way. While the Psion has True Seeing, he doesn't have the uncapped range of See Invisibility - so if the Wizard goes invisible, and gets 250 feet away with a Quickened Greater Teleport, after a series of Quickened Intensified Magic Missiles, reprisals are difficult.

Essentially? Rather than take wizard up to 60, I'd suggest taking it up to 50 to replace a few of those levels with Red Wizard. Check source restrictions.

[Tael]

Any advice, or are we both stupid?

I'm afraid so.

Level 15+ battles for beginners are not a good idea. The game stops working properly after level 20. You do the math.

[Moriato]

Arn't powers only capped by manifester level? Without epic spells, a wizard 100 is like a wizard 20 with a very high Int score. But as a psion 100 you can pump 100 pp into a single power.


Correct, and that includes the power's save DC, too. Most of them go up by 1 for every 2PP you pump into them, no cap. A couple go up by 1 per 1PP. The Psion will probably have much higher DCs than the wizard, all other things being equal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Check source restrictions.

Red wizard is in the DMG, it's core.

[Aemoh87]

The immunities probably will not matter - there's a limit to how much you can get from items if you don't allow custom items, and nothing really stops a Disjunction from stripping off all the buffs and defenses barring epic spells, which were also stated to not be in use for this.

So the fight might go something like:

Wizard uses Celerity to win initiative, casts a quickened Disjunction followed by a quickened Disjunction in case of weird shenanigans to protect against the first such as a Contingent AMF, followed by a quickened Disjunction just to be sure (he's using Multicasting x10 and Automatic Quicken III at this level of course), followed by 9 spells designed to kill the other guy with just plain irresistable damage.

The psion probably has similar tricks, but I'm less familiar with psion trickery. Probably the fight hinges on a thirty minute long argument at the table about which 'auto-win initiative' ability trumps the other.

You are clearly unaware of how many magic item slots an epic level character can have... especially with over 30 feats. Plus I am sure rings of counterspell will be present making all sorts of dispels not possible.


1) Not if I use swift actions to hit you with 40 save or die effects in one round (quite doable at that level - a few copies of Automatic Quicken Spell to get 9th's Quickened, Multispell, and preparing to unload it all in one round).
2) It can actually go up much faster than that. If you focus on it, with the Epic version of Heighten and repeated use of Improved Spell Capacity, you can actually get it up by two per three levels with a pure Wizard build (up until a point). So unless the opponent is doing similar tricks to get Concentration to saves....

Ah, but it's also much harder to have both of those with these restrictions. But yeah - focus on no-save direct-damage seems to be good advice.

There's a number of ways to build the character, yes.

The way to do so is to get out of the way. While the Psion has True Seeing, he doesn't have the uncapped rbility ange of See Invisi- so if the Wizard goes invisible, and gets 250 feet away with a Quickened Greater Teleport, after a series of Quickened Intensified Magic Missiles, reprisals are difficult.
Check source restrictions.

1. you clearly don't know there is a rule stating how many spells you can cast a round... Look that up for your own personal knowledge.

2. Magic missiles is actually a good idea in this situation, since I do not know if there is a way for a Psion to become immune to it/immune to force.

3. Simple immunities check is all you need. It doesn't sound like there is going to be crazy templates involved so just take some time to examine them with time stop then cast whatever you need to finish them off.

Also is there a buffing period because this would change the duel a whole lot.

[Tael]

I don't actually have the ELH, so could you inform me Aemoh? What is the cap on spells per round?

[Aemoh87]

I don't actually have the ELH, so could you inform me Aemoh? What is the cap on spells per round?

You defiantly don't need the ELH to find that.

[Tael]

You defiantly don't need the ELH to find that.

And the mystery cap is...?

[hamishspence]

Going by the Multispell feat:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm

there is no cap- it's dependant on how many times you've taken the feat.

[absolmorph]

And the mystery cap is...?
You have a Standard, Move and Swift Action.
Quickened spells cost a Swift Action.

[hamishspence]

Unless, as mentioned, you've taken Multispell- which grants ability to cast an extra quickened spell per round, each time you take the feat.

[Marthinwurer]

So the general consensus is that doing it at the level we are currently considering is a bad idea, due to the fact that everything is broken, and lak of experience?

[LOTRfan]

May I suggest level 3 for beginners? The game functions correctly and is not too complicated for beginners, but you aren't killed in one shot either.

[Tael]

I vote for 4 or 6. Game is still not super complicated, but now there can be some actual meaningful specialization.

[Eldariel]

So the general consensus is that doing it at the level we are currently considering is a bad idea, due to the fact that everything is broken, and lak of experience?

Anything over level 20 I'd never consider without lots of experience and heavy houseruling. Level 20 is also quite difficult but merely requires you to read through the books for you to figure out; more importantly, level 20 has lots and lots of solid defensive abilities meaning a properly built character (that is, one with lots of defensive abilities) is unlikely to get one-round anything'd. Epic is also like this, but again, it requires players who know what they're doing.

However, for beginners who don't know the system yet, level 20 is mindblowingly complex. Hell, many players have played the game for years without really understanding the dynamics on level 20; and only casters get to play that game with martial types doing things casters can do with one spell, all day. Level 3 is possible, but a tad simplistic. Level 6 is quite the sweet spot with regards to the abilities of the various classes, and with some complexity but yet nothing completely game-warping. That's what I'd consider. Levels 8-11 are also good options though they are a tad complex already, and go towards the caster-end of the spectrum pretty hard.

[NichG]

You are clearly unaware of how many magic item slots an epic level character can have... especially with over 30 feats. Plus I am sure rings of counterspell will be present making all sorts of dispels not possible.


I just can't think of that many core items that grant immunities. You need Exalted Deeds to get immunity to death effects from an item, for instance. You can certainly get Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, and elemental immunities with core, but how do you avoid death effects, petrification, polymorph, stunning, or paralysis with core magic items?

As far as counterspells, thats a fair point that pushes the win to the psionicist (since you can't counter-psionics the same way you can counterspell).

[Aemoh87]

And the mystery cap is...?

If the cap is a mystery you have a problem. My question is how are you getting 40 swift actions? The cap is based on your actions obviously. Now quickening magic missile is no problem.

But are you crafting 40 contingent spells? Are you using shenanigans?

[Tael]

If the cap is a mystery you have a problem. My question is how are you getting 40 swift actions? The cap is based on your actions obviously. Now quickening magic missile is no problem.

But are you crafting 40 contingent spells? Are you using shenanigans?

Uh, just like 5 other people stated, Multispell is where it's at.

[Aemoh87]

Uh, just like 5 other people stated, Multispell is where it's at.

That is defiantly one problem with being lvl 100, it creates strange thinking. Its difficult to wrap my head around taking that feat so many times.

[Jack_Simth]

1. you clearly don't know there is a rule stating how many spells you can cast a round... Look that up for your own personal knowledge.
Check it out! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) I specified the method to make it work. It's even on the heavily-restricted source list (Epic Level Handbook). Granted, I didn't specifically link it at the time, but I called the feat out by name. A Wizard-100 would have around 26 bonus epic feats, and about the same number of regular epic feats. A few of those on Automatic Quicken Spell so you're auto-quickening your 9th level spells, and toss the rest into Multispell, and you're golden. You can, indeed, toss out 40 spells in a round at the levels we're discussing, if you build for it. Although you'll run out of spell slots fast doing that.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't pretty much say outright that I'm breaking the rules. Seriously, I already told you how to do that in the build suggestion that you quoted. You're just flat-out contradicting me, citing no source. Kindly stop.



2. Magic missiles is actually a good idea in this situation, since I do not know if there is a way for a Psion to become immune to it/immune to force.
Oh, definitely. Intensified Magic Missiles will be quite handy. You'll need a rather lot of them, though. Just make sure you can overcome the PR (same as SR, under transparency) the Psion is likely to have.



3. Simple immunities check is all you need. It doesn't sound like there is going to be crazy templates involved so just take some time to examine them with time stop then cast whatever you need to finish them off.

Yes, Greater Arcane Sight is your friend in this. Give you an instant listing of what all your opponent has up, no save, no SR.


Also is there a buffing period because this would change the duel a whole lot.
Depends on the builds.

[Aemoh87]

Check it out! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) I specified the method to make it work. It's even on the heavily-restricted source list (Epic Level Handbook). Granted, I didn't specifically link it at the time, but I called the feat out by name. A Wizard-100 would have around 26 bonus epic feats, and about the same number of regular epic feats. A few of those on Automatic Quicken Spell so you're auto-quickening your 9th level spells, and toss the rest into Multispell, and you're golden. You can, indeed, toss out 40 spells in a round at the levels we're discussing, if you build for it. Although you'll run out of spell slots fast doing that.

Well I didn't wrap my head around it. You were right.

[absolmorph]

Unless, as mentioned, you've taken Multispell- which grants ability to cast an extra quickened spell per round, each time you take the feat.
Actually... You still have 1 swift action, and Multispell merely removes the 1 spell/round restriction, but leaves the action restriction.
The problem is Multispell is a 3.0 feat, and in 3.0 quickened spells were free actions (because swift actions hadn't been created yet), which is why there's a specification in the Quicken Spell feat that you can only cast 1 quickened spell per round.

[Sarco_Phage]

At level 100 it's perfectly feasible to create an epic spell that simply makes you win* (using an army of chin-gated solars to keep the DC down. The Psion can probably do the same.

*Not win the battle- just win existence.


an army of chin-gated solars

This... may just be the greatest mental image I have ever had.

I'm picturing infinite Solars, each with gates in their chins that open to Celestia, each firing Solars out of their chins that fire other Solars. It is amazing. I weep at its beauty.

[Aemoh87]

Actually... You still have 1 swift action, and Multispell merely removes the 1 spell/round restriction, but leaves the action restriction.
The problem is Multispell is a 3.0 feat, and in 3.0 quickened spells were free actions (because swift actions hadn't been created yet), which is why there's a specification in the Quicken Spell feat that you can only cast 1 quickened spell per round.

Gah, I knew I was missing something but I didn't have time for the look up.

[hamishspence]

Actually... You still have 1 swift action, and Multispell merely removes the 1 spell/round restriction, but leaves the action restriction.
The problem is Multispell is a 3.0 feat, and in 3.0 quickened spells were free actions (because swift actions hadn't been created yet), which is why there's a specification in the Quicken Spell feat that you can only cast 1 quickened spell per round.

Characters in 3.5 sources (like Waterdeep: City of Splendors) do have the feat though.

And the SRD is 3.5 (even if it uses a lot of 3.0 material, it updates it- the stats of the Epic monsters, like Damage Reduction, follow 3.5 format.

(there's also a free online update for various 3.0 books including the Epic Handbook, on the WoTC site).

So- going by the use of Multispell as a feat in 3.5 sources- I would speculate that it might grant the ability to cast extra spells with that one swift action, or grant extra "spell-only" swift actions- but it will work.

Specific overrides general- and the general rule for quickened spells and swift actions in the SRD:

Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

would be superseded by the specific "additional quickened spell" rule of the Multispell feat.

[tyckspoon]

I just can't think of that many core items that grant immunities. You need Exalted Deeds to get immunity to death effects from an item, for instance. You can certainly get Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, and elemental immunities with core, but how do you avoid death effects, petrification, polymorph, stunning, or paralysis with core magic items?


Scarab of Protection is your Core defense against [Death] effects and level drain; a fresh one will 'only' absorb 12 such effects, but that should be sufficient for a duel like this, and heck, you're level 100, you can afford to be carrying like fifty of them without sweating it. For the rest of them, Shapechange/(True) Metamorphosis is probably the best answer; most of the exotic Types (Elemental, Undead, Ooze, Plant.. there should be something functional you can turn into in these categories) offer protection from paralysis and stunning, Plant and Ooze give polymorph as well. Or just be a Lich, which is a very traditional and well-respected route for a ludicrously Epic caster, at least if you don't mind being an unholy abomination.

[faceroll]

Limited wish: death ward.

Effects like Dispel Magic and Disjunction will be pretty much useless. Anyone advocating their use clearly hasn't read the rules for those spells.

A level 100 wizard is going to have at least a +50 will save. I'm curious how you're going to get Disjunction to have a DC60+ save.

[tyckspoon]

Limited wish: death ward.

Effects like Dispel Magic and Disjunction will be pretty much useless. Anyone advocating their use clearly hasn't read the rules for those spells.

A level 100 wizard is going to have at least a +50 will save. I'm curious how you're going to get Disjunction to have a DC60+ save.

It will still auto-remove spell-based defenses, which is still worth doing. As for the DC- 50-some casting stat + Heightened to a level 20 or so spell slot? Shouldn't be all that hard to do if you're aiming specifically for a high spell level/high DC cast.

[Eldariel]

Limited wish: death ward.

Effects like Dispel Magic and Disjunction will be pretty much useless. Anyone advocating their use clearly hasn't read the rules for those spells.

A level 100 wizard is going to have at least a +50 will save. I'm curious how you're going to get Disjunction to have a DC60+ save.

Wut. Are we honestly talking about using save-offering spells in epic? What has the world come to?

[faceroll]

It will still auto-remove spell-based defenses, which is still worth doing. As for the DC- 50-some casting stat + Heightened to a level 20 or so spell slot? Shouldn't be all that hard to do if you're aiming specifically for a high spell level/high DC cast.

Disjunction has a +10 on dispel checks. Not... that good.

[tyckspoon]

Disjunction has a +10 on dispel checks. Not... that good.

Erm. The line (ending the effect as a Dispel Magic does) does not mean Disjunction has to make a dispelling check. It ends spells, no question- the comment about Dispel Magic just tells you to check if there are any special conditons related to when the spell is ended. I think the most common/relevant one is usually the clause in Fly about how you featherfall down when it gets ended instead of plummeting.

[Jack_Simth]

Limited wish: death ward.

Effects like Dispel Magic and Disjunction will be pretty much useless. Anyone advocating their use clearly hasn't read the rules for those spells.

A level 100 wizard is going to have at least a +50 will save. I'm curious how you're going to get Disjunction to have a DC60+ save.
Two answers:
1) Disjunction only needs a save to kill items. Spells are automatic, which is the point. The save DC is irrelevant.
2) Not all that hard. A standard Wizard-100 gets:
a: +25 ability points from leveling up.
b: A starting Int of about 18
c: A +5 Tome of +Int
d: A +12 Int-boosting Headband
=Int 60, for a +25 modifier. So spell save DC's are 35+Spell level.
So for DC 60, you need a spell level of 25. AKA, 16 instances of Improved Spell Capacity, plus the Epic version of Heighten spell. You get epic character feats at 21st, and every three levels thereafter, for 27 character level Epic feats. The Epic Wizard also gets a bonus Epic feat at 23rd, and every three levels thereafter, for another 26 Epic bonus feats. Grand Total: 53 Epic Feats. Spend one on the Epic version of Heighten, 41 on Improved Spell Capacity, and you've got 50th level spells, with 11 Epic feats left over. That gives a save DC of ... 85. Is this sufficient?

[tyckspoon]

Two answers:
. That gives a save DC of ... 85. Is this sufficient?

Hmm. Well.. without any special effort, base 12 from 20 levels of good save progression, +40 Epic save bonus from 80 Epic levels, 10 Epic Cloak of Resistance (assuming you don't use the very obvious mathematical progression to make a level 100-appropriate version, which.. you really should, and it'll scale faster and cheaper than the competing item of +Int) gets you 62. Should probably have a Wis of at least 18, because the wealth cost to do so is absolutely trivial for the levels, provided you even bother to keep track of how many non-Epic items you have (start at 'all of them' and go from there.) So 66. On the theme of 'all of them', Core material means you're carrying a luckstone and have a Pale Green ioun stone, for +1 luck and +1 competence respectively. 68.. and running out of accessible ways to boost saves without getting into obvious-but-technically-custom items.. Psionics is open to the discussion, so I guess we can throw a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor in there? +4 Insight gives us 72, without having invested any really meaningful resources in it. From there, the only reliable way I can think of to go higher is to invest more in Wisdom; you can probably squeeze out another 3-5 points worth of save bonus. So.. probably about even odds, which is not good considering the sheer number of magic items you're going to be carrying and relying on.. as much as I hate to say it, in this particular outlier case it might actually be worth taking Iron Will and Epic Will. :smallannoyed: You won't be short of feats, after all, and it's +6 that stacks with everything, which at least puts your odds of saving well over half.

[NichG]

I checked the Ring of Counterspells, and it isn't going to protect against Disjunction since its capped at 6th level spells. You could do it with a Faerun source (if I remeber correctly, there's a weapon enchant that lets you automatically absorb one particular spell any number of times). So unless you're using the Shrink Item/Hat trick or other somewhat questionable methods, I don't see how you're going to avoid 12 Multispell-enabled Disjunctions all dropped in one round.

Leaving aside rules interpretations that make Multispell a complete dead feat, that is...

[tyckspoon]

I checked the Ring of Counterspells, and it isn't going to protect against Disjunction since its capped at 6th level spells. You could do it with a Faerun source (if I remeber correctly, there's a weapon enchant that lets you automatically absorb one particular spell any number of times). So unless you're using the Shrink Item/Hat trick or other somewhat questionable methods, I don't see how you're going to avoid 12 Multispell-enabled Disjunctions all dropped in one round.

Leaving aside rules interpretations that make Multispell a complete dead feat, that is...

Well, if they're being flung at you with Multispell, then they're not being Heightened, which means you're looking at only-fail-on-1. On the downside, you're going to be rolling so bloody many checks that you're going to lose some items anyway..

If were going to go with the Multispell burst, it'd be with Greater Dispel Magics. Hit all of his magic jewelry twice- if we're restricting to pre-written items, that's where the majority of the really powerful defensive items are, and most Epic items still only have a CL of 20 (in other words, you auto dispel them, because you're getting d20 + 20 against just 20.) Which means you don't really need to hit them twice and you can spare a couple Dispels for knocking off whatever he's got on his armor as well... now, he has no means of being completely energy immune unless he's Shapechanged into something (and he probably doesn't have Evasion because you dispelled that ring, although 100 levels leaves a lot of space for dipping Monk or something), so Maximized Timestop ->5x Enhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireballs. 360 guaranteed damage, 180 on a successful save, x5 instances. GG, unless your opponent did actually take the time to get Evasion as a hard ability instead of buying it.

[Eldariel]

I have an epic ward that includes Disjunction (as does every other epic caster ever). Can we get back to something relevant now?

[tyckspoon]

I have an epic ward that includes Disjunction (as does every other epic caster ever). Can we get back to something relevant now?

If Epic Spellcasting was actually under discussion, there'd be no discussion- it'd be two guys who were in a MAD agreement not to retroactively annihilate each other with their instantly-researched infinitely powerful magic. And/or they both would have retired to their personal paradise planes, having long ago explored and examined everything interesting in the Prime Material. If you're going to have any sensible discussion about ludicrously Epic casters fighting each other, Epic Spells cannot be on the table (we will pretend for the moment that it is possible to have a sensible discussion about ludicrously Epic casters fighting each other whether or not Epic Spells are in play anyway.)

[Aemoh87]

I have grown weary of this discussion. Level 100 isn't meant to happen at all.

[Eldariel]

If Epic Spellcasting was actually under discussion, there'd be no discussion- it'd be two guys who were in a MAD agreement not to retroactively annihilate each other with their instantly-researched infinitely powerful magic. And/or they both would have retired to their personal paradise planes, having long ago explored and examined everything interesting in the Prime Material. If you're going to have any sensible discussion about ludicrously Epic casters fighting each other, Epic Spells cannot be on the table (we will pretend for the moment that it is possible to have a sensible discussion about ludicrously Epic casters fighting each other whether or not Epic Spells are in play anyway.)

You can work with slightly modified Epic Spellcasting; that is, you have to cap mitigation. At that point, it sorta-kinda works. Extremely expensive but doable. If Epic Spells don't exist, frankly, level 100 is just the same as level 20 except 100 HD worth of Contingencies rather than just 20. In other words, yes, you guessed it, nobody is dying for the foreseeable future.

[NichG]

Well, if they're being flung at you with Multispell, then they're not being Heightened, which means you're looking at only-fail-on-1. On the downside, you're going to be rolling so bloody many checks that you're going to lose some items anyway..

If were going to go with the Multispell burst, it'd be with Greater Dispel Magics. Hit all of his magic jewelry twice- if we're restricting to pre-written items, that's where the majority of the really powerful defensive items are, and most Epic items still only have a CL of 20 (in other words, you auto dispel them, because you're getting d20 + 20 against just 20.) Which means you don't really need to hit them twice and you can spare a couple Dispels for knocking off whatever he's got on his armor as well... now, he has no means of being completely energy immune unless he's Shapechanged into something (and he probably doesn't have Evasion because you dispelled that ring, although 100 levels leaves a lot of space for dipping Monk or something), so Maximized Timestop ->5x Enhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireballs. 360 guaranteed damage, 180 on a successful save, x5 instances. GG, unless your opponent did actually take the time to get Evasion as a hard ability instead of buying it.

Mostly I'd want to strip off buffs and contingencies. Getting rid of the items just makes the job easier, but once the buffs are gone there's a lot of ways of finishing the kill without energy-typed damage you can be resistant to. Horrid Wilting, for example, is untyped damage with a Fort save for half. In Core, there's no Mettle, so you just win if they can't avoid the spells.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm. Well.. without any special effort, base 12 from 20 levels of good save progression, +40 Epic save bonus from 80 Epic levels, 10 Epic Cloak of Resistance (assuming you don't use the very obvious mathematical progression to make a level 100-appropriate version, which.. you really should, and it'll scale faster and cheaper than the competing item of +Int) gets you 62. Should probably have a Wis of at least 18, because the wealth cost to do so is absolutely trivial for the levels, provided you even bother to keep track of how many non-Epic items you have (start at 'all of them' and go from there.) So 66. On the theme of 'all of them', Core material means you're carrying a luckstone and have a Pale Green ioun stone, for +1 luck and +1 competence respectively. 68.. and running out of accessible ways to boost saves without getting into obvious-but-technically-custom items.. Psionics is open to the discussion, so I guess we can throw a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor in there? +4 Insight gives us 72, without having invested any really meaningful resources in it. From there, the only reliable way I can think of to go higher is to invest more in Wisdom; you can probably squeeze out another 3-5 points worth of save bonus. So.. probably about even odds, which is not good considering the sheer number of magic items you're going to be carrying and relying on.. as much as I hate to say it, in this particular outlier case it might actually be worth taking Iron Will and Epic Will. :smallannoyed: You won't be short of feats, after all, and it's +6 that stacks with everything, which at least puts your odds of saving well over half.
If it's any help, the save DC can be pushed up another eight with those 11 remaining feats - six on Great Intellect, five more on Improved Spell Capacity (the six on great Intellect being there mostly to support more Improved Spell Capacity). And, of course, another two with the non-Epic Feats Spell Focus and Improved Spell Focus for your spell school of choice. And, of course, the non-Epic feat Quicken Spell, applied to an otherwise normal Disjunction, for no other purpose than getting rid of assorted buff spells your opponent might have up. But yes - the Multispell flood has a better chance of taking down a target. I'm just pointing out that you *can* make it a very difficult save within the rules specified for the OP.

Of course, then I might point out that you're mostly making Schrodinger's Psion, there, to defend against this, in that you're taking feats to defend specifically against a particular tactic (you didn't think about Iron Will and Epic Iron Will until I specifically mentioned just how crazy the DC could get).

[Shadowleaf]

Don't do level 100 battles. D&D 3.5 balance breaks down after lower levels, and is completely ruined by level 20.

An 'optimized' level 100 caster character would litterally take a small novel to keep track of - permanent spells, persisted spells, memorized spells, epic spells, epic spell effects, immunities (if you don't have immunity everything, you're doing something wrong), items, stats, cohorts, divine abilities, etc.
I'd almost say it was impossible for two level 100 characters to kill eachother, barring epic spellcasting. Playing Hide And Seek through time and space, when both are immune to magic.. :smallfrown:

So, yea, aim for a much lower level. With you and your brother being new to D&D, I would suggest level 1, 6 or, at max, 10.

[Comet]

^ Word.

For me, D&D ends at level 20. It's a nice round number and everything beyond that is just bigger numbers and sillier wizards playing god.

Is the number 100 really that cool? This isn't the first time I've heard people want to prove their D&D manliness by playing a duel with level 100 characters. I just don't get it, it's all just bigger numbers and more bookkeeping.

[NichG]

^ Word.

For me, D&D ends at level 20. It's a nice round number and everything beyond that is just bigger numbers and sillier wizards playing god.

Is the number 100 really that cool? This isn't the first time I've heard people want to prove their D&D manliness by playing a duel with level 100 characters. I just don't get it, it's all just bigger numbers and more bookkeeping.

... so I just had an amusing flash of insight on this. The OP and his brother might be able to play a reasonable and interesting level 100 duel.

Why?

Because they don't know that they need to become immune to everything, cheese epic magic, use 30 Multispell feats, etc. Basically, the '100' is irrelevant here, this is game of purely 'what do you come up with given essentially infinite resources?'. If you know the game too well, then the answers are obvious and that path has been walked upon many times before by many others.

If you're new to the game, you don't know all the complete immunity, etc, etc tricks, so you don't use them. The result is you have two characters with inflated hitpoints, saves, and wealth, but the (effective) resources and complexity of a much lower level character. That might actually be a reasonable thing to do between people, not as a test of whether Wizard beats Psion, but as a test of how well they do know the game.

[Aemoh87]

... so I just had an amusing flash of insight on this. The OP and his friend might be able to play a reasonable and interesting level 100 duel.

Why?

Because they don't know that they need to become immune to everything, cheese epic magic, use 30 Multispell feats, etc. Basically, the '100' is irrelevant here, this is game of purely 'what do you come up with given essentially infinite resources?'. If you know the game too well, then the answers are obvious and that path has been walked upon many times before by many others.

If you're new to the game, you don't know all the complete immunity, etc, etc tricks, so you don't use them. The result is you have two characters with inflated hitpoints, saves, and wealth, but the (effective) resources and complexity of a much lower level character. That might actually be a reasonable thing to do between people, not as a test of whether Wizard beats Psion, but as a test of how well they do know the game.

LOL good idea... but now one of them has this thread. So too late.

[NichG]

LOL good idea... but now one of them has this thread. So too late.

It's like the 'real' version of Tainted Scholar. You become impossibly powerful because of your forbidden knowledge, but you lose your 'humanity' (ability to enjoy things like Lv100 vs fights) in the process.

[Aemoh87]

It's like the 'real' version of Tainted Scholar. You become impossibly powerful because of your forbidden knowledge, but you lose your 'humanity' (ability to enjoy things like Lv100 vs fights) in the process.

So true, lets just hope he doesn't try to turn himself into an undead to avoid insanity...

[Viktyr Gehrig]

So the general consensus is that doing it at the level we are currently considering is a bad idea, due to the fact that everything is broken, and lak of experience?

Honestly, it's not even lack of experience. There is no level of experience at which the game is even remotely functional at level 100; for spellcasters, it starts breaking down around 9 and makes progressively less and less sense as you get closer to 20, after which it stops trying. The rules for playing past that level are mostly for finishing up campaigns or trying to ascend to godhood-- which should happen before 40th level, when the characters are already more powerful than the gods.

[Tael]

... so I just had an amusing flash of insight on this. The OP and his brother might be able to play a reasonable and interesting level 100 duel.

Why?

Because they don't know that they need to become immune to everything, cheese epic magic, use 30 Multispell feats, etc. Basically, the '100' is irrelevant here, this is game of purely 'what do you come up with given essentially infinite resources?'. If you know the game too well, then the answers are obvious and that path has been walked upon many times before by many others.

If you're new to the game, you don't know all the complete immunity, etc, etc tricks, so you don't use them. The result is you have two characters with inflated hitpoints, saves, and wealth, but the (effective) resources and complexity of a much lower level character. That might actually be a reasonable thing to do between people, not as a test of whether Wizard beats Psion, but as a test of how well they do know the game.

Except for the fact that they should never do Epic without lots of experience, just because of how much **** you have to put into a character. You have billions of gold, something like a hundred feats, a ridiculous number of spells, and they would have no idea what to do with any of it. Making their characters would take a month, and they'd still probably not what to do when their turn came around.

So yeah. Don't do epic.

[NichG]

Except for the fact that they should never do Epic without lots of experience, just because of how much **** you have to put into a character. You have billions of gold, something like a hundred feats, a ridiculous number of spells, and they would have no idea what to do with any of it. Making their characters would take a month, and they'd still probably not what to do when their turn came around.

So yeah. Don't do epic.

What I was getting at is, if you're inexperienced, you'll muck it up and pick things that look cool and have tons of weird stuff. As opposed to the immune-to-everything highly streamlined builds that people around here tend to discuss. The results might actually be playable, and would say something interesting about the players rather than the natural consequences of the rules system.

I mean, if I think back to when I was first learning D&D, I might've made a character like this:


Wizard 100
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 43 (55 with items), Wis 8, Cha 14

Items: Ring of Protection +10, Bag of Holding, Staff of the Cosmos (because it seems like it should be kinda cool), Headband of Intellect +12, Ivory Tokens, Magic Pigments, Decanter of Endless Water, other cool sounding things

Spells: Meteor Swarm, Disintegrate, other classics. I'd play a blaster, or maybe an illusionist since that seems cool and has interesting creativity possibilities (my first character was a wizard illusionist with Shadowcraft mage who never used Shadow Conjuration or Shades or any of that stuff - back in the day I thought the 'make illusions real' part of Shadowcraft mage applied to things like Silent Image). Permanent Image and Programmed Image sound really cool and versatile, so I'd make them my mainstays.

I probably wouldn't take Disjunction. I probably wouldn't take Shapechange. I'd probably take a lot of teleport/planar travel spells because going places is neat, so I might take Gate, but I wouldn't think to summon solars with it. I'd take Wish because its freaking Wish, but I wouldn't bother using it for mere things on the list of things it can do - no, I'd try to bend reality and get genied every time, and love it!

Feats? Spell Focus, Combat Casting, more stuff that looks cool. I probably wouldn't bother too much with Metamagic - it looks like an interesting system, but I'm new to things and its kind of confusing and I don't know that an Empowered spell could do more damage than a spell at a higher level could do, due to the caster level scaling of the damage dice.

Honestly, I'd run out of feats and start taking all sorts of crazy stuff. I might take Dodge, I might take Weapon Focus (Staff), etc. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Crossbow) (yeah, I had this on that wizard who was my first character).

I wouldn't be batman or god. A Lv20 wizard from these forums would kick my ass without breaking a sweat. But it might be fun to play.


So what I'm saying is, Epic gets worse with experience, not better. If you have no clue what you're doing, you won't know how to break it.

[Marthinwurer]

What I was getting at is, if you're inexperienced, you'll muck it up and pick things that look cool and have tons of weird stuff. As opposed to the immune-to-everything highly streamlined builds that people around here tend to discuss. The results might actually be playable, and would say something interesting about the players rather than the natural consequences of the rules system.

I mean, if I think back to when I was first learning D&D, I might've made a character like this:


Wizard 100
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 43 (55 with items), Wis 8, Cha 14

Items: Ring of Protection +10, Bag of Holding, Staff of the Cosmos (because it seems like it should be kinda cool), Headband of Intellect +12, Ivory Tokens, Magic Pigments, Decanter of Endless Water, other cool sounding things

Spells: Meteor Swarm, Disintegrate, other classics. I'd play a blaster, or maybe an illusionist since that seems cool and has interesting creativity possibilities (my first character was a wizard illusionist with Shadowcraft mage who never used Shadow Conjuration or Shades or any of that stuff - back in the day I thought the 'make illusions real' part of Shadowcraft mage applied to things like Silent Image). Permanent Image and Programmed Image sound really cool and versatile, so I'd make them my mainstays.

I probably wouldn't take Disjunction. I probably wouldn't take Shapechange. I'd probably take a lot of teleport/planar travel spells because going places is neat, so I might take Gate, but I wouldn't think to summon solars with it. I'd take Wish because its freaking Wish, but I wouldn't bother using it for mere things on the list of things it can do - no, I'd try to bend reality and get genied every time, and love it!

Feats? Spell Focus, Combat Casting, more stuff that looks cool. I probably wouldn't bother too much with Metamagic - it looks like an interesting system, but I'm new to things and its kind of confusing and I don't know that an Empowered spell could do more damage than a spell at a higher level could do, due to the caster level scaling of the damage dice.

Honestly, I'd run out of feats and start taking all sorts of crazy stuff. I might take Dodge, I might take Weapon Focus (Staff), etc. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Crossbow) (yeah, I had this on that wizard who was my first character).

I wouldn't be batman or god. A Lv20 wizard from these forums would kick my ass without breaking a sweat. But it might be fun to play.


So what I'm saying is, Epic gets worse with experience, not better. If you have no clue what you're doing, you won't know how to break it.

You basically just described how I was going to deck out my wizard.

An update: My brother and I, due to the suggestions of this thread, are going to do some level 5 battles. I have made a wizard, and also a warblade and ranger.