Knight -> Dwarven Defender

[NineThePuma]

Is it as horrible as it looks, despite thematic appropriateness?

[Serpentine]

I hope not, as I'm considering it myself.
...
Although it's for a DMPC, so maybe that's not so bad.

[Greenish]

If you have really limited sources and still want to tank, it can work, for a given value of "work".

[Cog]

Neither are considered very strong, so yeah.

Crusader -> Deepstone Sentinel?

[NineThePuma]

Limited sources, and the guy already wants to play a tanky dwarf.

As for ToB, it's out.

[Goonthegoof]

What is with people banning tome of battle?
If your resources are limited and you want a tanky dwarf tell him to play a cleric.

[Innis Cabal]

Or you know, you let him play what he wants to play.

[Cog]

Alright.

Knight has two tanking abilities. One is the difficult-terrain aura, and the Challenge one offers a save based on class level. Either get the first and then bail for something else (a trip-lockdown build, maybe), or stick with it to keep the second's DC high.

Dwarven Defender's lack of mobility is really brutal except in particular cases. I'd suggest avoiding it either way.

[Greenish]

Or you know, you let him play what he wants to play.Well, he wants to play a tanky dwarf. A cleric would work fine.

A knight could work too, but I'm not sure I'd go for DD. Maybe if you really didn't have any more good feats to take, the three useless ones for DD requirements wouldn't be so bad, but you'd probably be better off as a straight knight (or maybe knight/fighter).

[SurlySeraph]

If he takes a Dwarf subrace that doesn't take a hit to Cha (Gold Dwarf is one), carries a reach weapon, doesn't face too many enemies that are insufficiently intelligent to respond to Test of Mettle, and isn't in a high-optimization party, it's viable. Letting him use Defensive Stance at will instead of with a uses per day limit, letting his DD levels stack with Knight levels for the purposes of Knight's Challenge and other class features, and easing the DD prereqs would certainly make things easier.

Knight Protector (CWar) might be a better choice with similar fluff.

If he goes with it, I'd encourage taking Interlocking Plate (from Races of Stone, it gives you +8 AC normally and +10 if you don't move more than 5 feet in that round), and a Dwarven Warpike (reach, tripping, 2d6 damage) for flavor and avoiding being yet another battlefield control guy with a spiked chain.

[Greenish]

If he takes a Dwarf subrace that doesn't take a hit to Cha (Gold Dwarf is one), carries a reach weaponSadly, most dwarf subraces that don't penalize charisma hurt dexterity instead, which is annoying for an AoO guy.

[Cog]

Hm. Is Complete Champion in? Earth Devotion does some nice tanking, offers immediate-action use that can interrupt charges, and keys of character level and BAB rather than ability modifies or turning level (so you only need a Cleric/Paladin dip to gain plenty of uses/day). C.Champion even makes straight Paladin not bad, between the Devotions and Battle Blessing.

If that's not on your limited sources either, can we get a list?

[NineThePuma]

I would prefer to avoid more complicated classes, as he is a newbie player.

That's Spells/Maneuvers.

[Koury]

Maneuvers are complicated? My cousin runs his Warblade just fine and hes nine. I just remind him which schools he can choose from when he levels up and how many to choose and of what levels and we're good. Granted I tend to not double check prereqs cuz, well, hes nine and I don't quite care that much. :smallbiggrin:

[NineThePuma]

The issue isn't "oh, it's complicated" it's "I want something that's simple, so he doesn't get overwhelmed"

That and everyone in the group gives me funny looks when I say that Psions can tank like pros.

[Tvtyrant]

Well for SRD tankiness you could go Cleric 5(for shield another)/Barbarian 4/Dwarven Defender 10 to get +8 to Con while standing there and taking it. Adding in a +6 Con item and focusing on con you could get a con of around 32 for extra HP. Then stand there and absorb your parties injuries.

[Cog]

I would prefer to avoid more complicated classes, as he is a newbie player.

That's Spells/Maneuvers.
Try Knight 3 / Paladin 4. Knight 3 gets you Bulwark of Defense, Paladin 4 gets you TU, Divine Grace, etc. Complete Champion also lets you trade Paladin spellcasting for feats: now you don't have to care about Wisdom (except for will saves, of course), and for your 4th level bonus feat you grab Extra Turning for four more uses of Earth Devotion per day (for a total of 8+Cha uses/day, plenty so you don't have to worry about using it freely). Your only weird attack is Earth Devotion, so the rules are easy to learn, and there's no per-day spell selection.

[Koury]

The issue isn't "oh, it's complicated" it's "I want something that's simple, so he doesn't get overwhelmed"

That and everyone in the group gives me funny looks when I say that Psions can tank like pros.

I understand that. I started him out as a Fighter for the same reason. It wasn't more then three fights in til he got to the "I'll just hit it again, I guess. What else can I do?" point.

He loves the Warblade though, so that worked out. :smallsmile:

In the same vein, Sorcs are pretty easy to play also.

[/suggesting things OP said they didn't want]

[herrhauptmann]

Well for SRD tankiness you could go Cleric 5(for shield another)/Barbarian 4/Dwarven Defender 10 to get +8 to Con while standing there and taking it. Adding in a +6 Con item and focusing on con you could get a con of around 32 for extra HP. Then stand there and absorb your parties injuries.

If you're going that route for the giant con, take 2 levels in deepwarden for Con to AC.
If going to have a warpike (I assume 2handed) buy the steadfast boots from MiC. You're now automatically set against a charge with any 2 handed weapon, even if it doesn't normally allow it to be set against a charge. This free attack is separate from an AOO, so it doesn't eat up his AOOs each turn. And it works even if you didn't spend your turn setting or readying against a charge.

edit:
Regarding bad prereqs:
Yes, deepwarden has some harsh prereqs in regards to skills. Getting a +10 stat to AC is nice.
Improved toughness, I don't believe it states it can be used in place of regular toughness, but that's a common houserule.
Dodge, there are several versions of dodge which can be taken in place of regular dodge for prereqs. (their entries specifically allow it). See ToB and MoI. But be warned, some feats and other abilities specifically reference a Dodge target, which the alternates don't create.

[Greenish]

Try Knight 3 / Paladin 4. Knight 3 gets you Bulwark of Defense, Paladin 4 gets you TU, Divine Grace, etc.For some reason, I think there's a paladin/knight multiclassing feat somewhere, but I can't recall where it would be or what it would do.

[Cog]

PHB2 was pretty late in 3.5, right? It'd almost have to be out of Dragon Magazine, if it exists, and so probably not on the short list.

[Greenish]

PHB2 was pretty late in 3.5, right? It'd almost have to be out of Dragon Magazine, if it exists, and so probably not on the short list.I might just be imagining things.

[IthroZada]

For some reason, I think there's a paladin/knight multiclassing feat somewhere, but I can't recall where it would be or what it would do.

There is Knight Training in the Eberron Campaign Setting, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with Knights or progressing two classes like Devoted Tracker lets you. It just lets you multiclass out of Paladin without losing the ability to continue gaining levels in it.

[Bang!]

The Knight by RAW isn't horrible with the Dwarven Defender class (no worse than anything else is, really), but it's pretty terrible with the baggage that goes along with the Dwarven Defender class: Dwarf/Knight stat priorities clash, Dwarfs start with one of the Knight's signature abilities, there aren't enough junk bonus feats to feed DD's harsh prerequisites, and the Knight's defining ability is both level- and Charisma-based.

So while the concept seems like it could work and the themes basically jibe, there are some basic features of the classes that are getting in the way.

How would you feel about using homebrewed Dwarven Defender-style Alternate Class Features, instead of trying to build a decent RAW entry?

You could:
Replace Mounted Combat with Uncanny Dodge
Bump the Armor Mastery up to heavy at level 4 (since Dwarves effectively start with it) and add Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 9.
Replace the Bonus feats with a Defensive Stance use every 5 levels
Tune the Knight's Challenge to a stat beside Charisma. I'm tempted to suggest Constitution. It shouldn't break anything, and would help in synergizing the Defensive Stance + Knight's Challenge combo.

[Amphetryon]

Check Person_Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). While he doesn't explicitly recommend Dwarven Defender, Wild Dwarf Knight 6/Tactical Soldier 2/Dwarven Defender 10/Deepwarden 2 could work for the OP in a pinch as a somewhat reasonable extrapolation of the Handbook's Red Knight build.

Wild Dwarf is specifically called out as the only Dwarf I can recall offhand that is Small Size, which helps with mounted combat in dungeon environs.

[Darrin]

Sadly, most dwarf subraces that don't penalize charisma hurt dexterity instead, which is annoying for an AoO guy.

Magic-Blooded template (Dragon #306) can shift the Cha penalty to Wis.

Most of the problems of Dwarven Defender can be fixed with a 500 GP magic item: Talisman of the Disk (MIC p. 188).

[Addi]

Races of Stone has some nice racial substitution levels for dwarves. As a fighter, you gain a d12 hit die and some Abilities instead of your bonus feats. The clerics hit die increases to d10 for the Sub levels and he gets some extra Abilities too, but he looses turn undead.

[Cartigan]

Well, he wants to play a tanky dwarf. A cleric would work fine.

A knight could work too, but I'm not sure I'd go for DD. Maybe if you really didn't have any more good feats to take, the three useless ones for DD requirements wouldn't be so bad, but you'd probably be better off as a straight knight (or maybe knight/fighter).

I had the idea of doing this once. By the time I qualified for DD, I decided I would be better off staying a Knight than either standing around in the middle of the room being turned into a pincushion/being fatigued from having to run away from giant monsters or never using the signature ability. Though, I think I managed to knock some one off a horse by throwing my shield at them (I took a bunch of the shield focused feats)

I ended up trying to go into Divine Crusader before I got killed off, then rolled a Cleric, then the campaign ended the next session.

[Person_Man]

Yes, it is as horrible as it looks. Specifically:

1) Knight's Test of Mettle Save DC begins to suck at mid-high levels if you're anything but a strait Knight or a debuff build. Vigilant Defender also depends entirely on your class level.

2) Dwarvern Defender is just a lousy PrC. The bonuses are all quite low, and can be more easily replicated a dozen different ways, without imposing the whole movement penalty thing.

Keep in mind that the Knight is basically a high Tier 4 class. I would honestly let you play a gestalt Knight//Dwarvern Defender just to fill in the weak point of each class at ECL 6-16, and even then you'd only be a weakish Tier 3 class until your capstone kicked in.

[Gnaeus]

Keep in mind that the Knight is basically a high Tier 4 class. I would honestly let you play a gestalt Knight//Dwarvern Defender just to fill in the weak point of each class at ECL 6-16, and even then you'd only be a weakish Tier 3 class until your capstone kicked in.

Keep in mind that the knight is basically a high tier 4 class WHEN IT IS PLAYED by Person_Man who likes knights a lot and wrote the guidebook to them. They are more often viewed as tier 5. Personally, I wouldn't call it a high tier 5 class.