Dropping stuff on enemies

[ffone]

Right, so, here and threre in threads I see references to a cheese-tactic of conjuring heavy stuff above a foe (possibly a Shrunk Item item dropped into an AMF-fielded foe like a Colossus), since DnD damage if a >200 lbs object falls on you is, IIRC, 1d6 per 10' feet traveled (up to 20d6) plus 1d6 per 200 lbs of the object with no cap. And it's quite easy to find monsters and objects which weigh many many times this. Most Huge monsters weigh several tons.

I also seem to recall references to a blurb in - Heroes of Battle? Rules Compendium? - about a DC 15 reflex save being allowed. Which is a huge difference from 'no save' at high levels; a 100% vs 5% chance for most things.

My questions are:

1. What's the RAW answer?
2. If a PC tries this, and I have to cite a book like Heroes of Battle to give the enemy a save, I fully expect the reply to be "well how come a random splatbook is allowed to change core rules about falling objects? how can we be expected to know it?" What's a good response (other than Rule Zero, or "if you can use it so can I", or similar citing-my-authority DM replies)?

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know about if that rule exists or not, but the correct procedure is to announce changes to core rules before a campaign begins, and barring that at the start of the nearest session once you have decided to implement a rule. Telling someone that you altered what the perceived to be a rule after that change just minimized their actions is bad taste; telling them before they think of the action might curtail their action but is less painful to swallow.

[Thurbane]

Rules Compendium mentions no save (p.52).

Heroes of Battle mentions a DC 15 Reflex save under the rules for aerial bombardment (p.68). It also refers back to DMG, page 303. The DMG makes no mention of a Reflex save, either.

If you treat the DMG as the primary source, and the Rules Compendium as the most recent update to the primary source, then there would be no Reflex save.

IMHO, not allowing a save is a bit odd, though. You get a save to (partially) dodge a Fireball, but no save to avoid a massive boulder dropping from 200 feet?

[Curmudgeon]

Heroes of Battle mentions a DC 15 Reflex save under the rules for aerial bombardment (p.68). It also refers back to DMG, page 303. The DMG makes no mention of a Reflex save, either.

If you treat the DMG as the primary source, and the Rules Compendium as the most recent update to the primary source, then there would be no Reflex save.
That's not particularly good reasoning. Not mentioning a saving throw for falling objects isn't the same as presupposing there is no save allowed. The DMG says this:
Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen. ... so it's jumping into the situation after it's already been determined (mechanism unaddressed) that the object is going to hit.

The correct summary of the rules is that:

Dungeon Master's Guide and Rules Compendium don't talk about how falling objects hit creatures, only the damage when the hit takes place.
Heroes of Battle does discuss how falling objects can hit creatures, and how such hits can be avoided.

[HalfDragonCube]

In the Shax's Indispensable Haversack thread there was an awesome combination of a swan boat feather token and a collar of perpetual attendance.

Make the unseen servant carry the feather token high into the sky then activate it. The plummeting vessel deals huge amounts of damage over a large area. No save.

[faceroll]

I don't know about if that rule exists or not, but the correct procedure is to announce changes to core rules before a campaign begins, and barring that at the start of the nearest session once you have decided to implement a rule. Telling someone that you altered what the perceived to be a rule after that change just minimized their actions is bad taste; telling them before they think of the action might curtail their action but is less painful to swallow.

Yes, because totally cheesing out and using a tactic you read about on the internet that deals damage without a save or attack roll is how you should expect to play D&D. :smallconfused:

[Darrin]

1. What's the RAW answer?


RAW, there is no rule that states definitively how you determine if a falling object hits a creature when dropped from above. All we have in the DMG is how to determine the damage. It's been assumed by some people in these and other forums that since there's nothing in the Core rules on this, then falling objects automatically hit any creature in the square they are dropped, and that there is no Ref save. I have no idea how "official" or widespread this interpretation is (although, as can be seen in the Haversack, I'm a huge proponent of this tactic).



2. If a PC tries this, and I have to cite a book like Heroes of Battle to give the enemy a save, I fully expect the reply to be "well how come a random splatbook is allowed to change core rules about falling objects? how can we be expected to know it?" What's a good response (other than Rule Zero, or "if you can use it so can I", or similar citing-my-authority DM replies)?

The Aerial Bombardment rules in Heroes of Battle starts on page 67. On page 68, it states that falling objects have a 50' range increment, and the next paragraph mentions making an attack roll against an AC 5 to hit a target square. I'm assuming this is a ranged attack roll (as in, add your Dex bonus). There's a maneuverability penalty (-2 to -6) and a -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon, but no example is given for what might count as a "non-improvised" object. Missing the attack roll means you roll for scatter per the Missing with a Thrown Weapon rules (PHB p. 158). This means if your object is huge-sized or larger (such as a Swan Boat), you're guaranteed to hit your target square.

The next paragraph deals with damage, and references DMG p. 303 to calculate the damage. The next sentence mentions the save, which appears to apply to all falling objects:

"A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making a DC 15 Reflex save."

Objects dropped from higher than 250' above the target "are always considered indirect hits (see below)", but there's no actual rules mentioned "below" or anywhere else in the book that treats indirect hits as being any different than direct hits. There's some paragraphs on indirect fire for volleys of arrows, but the only difference from a normal ranged attack appears to be some height restrictions and you may be able to ignore any cover the target might have.

Calculating the range penalty seems largely meaningless anyway, since you could just target a square 5' below you that just so happens to be directly above the target you're trying to hit. There doesn't appear to be any rules for determining if an object drifts or scatters below that point. Even if you use the Missing with Thrown Weapons rules, the deviation is 5' at most.

There's also no discussion of how to handle stacking/illegal space violations. In the Swan Boat falling on a medium creature example, it can't occupy the same square as a medium creature. You can't really move it back to the last legal square 5' above its target (where it's still falling), and shifting it to an adjacent square produces a similar illegal stacking result. You could treat it as an improvised bull rush, but unless the target can do enough damage to sunder/destroy the Swan Boat on an AoO, there's no way he can win the bull rush check: assuming you can establish a Strength score for a Swan Boat (maybe by extrapolating the Animated Object stats), moving the falling object 5' back doesn't really work. Simplest solution is to treat it as an automatically successful bull rush, target is knocked prone underneath the Swan Boat.

So, anyway, by RAW:

The attack roll and Ref save DC 15 are supplemental rules in Heroes of Battle. If you don't have this sourcebook, you're stuck with Rule 0.

[Cog]

Calculating the range penalty seems largely meaningless anyway, since you could just target a square 5' below you that just so happens to be directly above the target you're trying to hit.
So you hit any creatures in the 5' cube immediately beneath you and the rules offer no indication that the item must affect creatures in the ground square as they would have if you had targeted that. Normally I'm not one for arguing intent... but seriously? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

So, anyway, by RAW:

The attack roll and Ref save DC 15 are supplemental rules in Heroes of Battle. If you don't have this sourcebook, you're stuck with Rule 0.
You're not just stuck with "Rule 0" (which isn't actually RAW, of course). You've got the improvised ranged weapon rules (Player's Handbook, page 113), which tell you that you've got 10' range increments and a maximum of 5 increments if you're going to hit anything. Past 50' you can't hit your target. Also if the item is too big for you to throw with any degree of control, you also can't hit your target.

So, basically, without Heroes of Battle or classes like Hulking Hurler you're not going to be hitting people with heavy stuff. That's the RAW.

As for what's commonly referred to as "Rule 0", though there's nothing written with that name in the rules, there is the FINAL NOTE on page 4 of the Dungeon Master's Guide:
You are the master of the game—the rules, the setting, the action, and ultimately, the fun. This is a great deal of power, and you must use it wisely.

[ffone]

You're not just stuck with "Rule 0" (which isn't actually RAW, of course). You've got the improvised ranged weapon rules (Player's Handbook, page 113), which tell you that you've got 10' range increments and a maximum of 5 increments if you're going to hit anything. Past 50' you can't hit your target. Also if the item is too big for you to throw with any degree of control, you also can't hit your target.

So, basically, without Heroes of Battle or classes like Hulking Hurler you're not going to be hitting people with heavy stuff. That's the RAW.

As for what's commonly referred to as "Rule 0", though there's nothing written with that name in the rules, there is the FINAL NOTE on page 4 of the Dungeon Master's Guide:

What if the stuff is dropped in a way which can't be construed as an attack roll (and thus subject to the improved ranged weapon rule) - for example, you have a payload atop a 'deck' (Floating Disk / horizontal Wall of Force / etc.), and then you dismiss the 'deck'. In other words, the item isn't thrown down, but rather it's 'let fall'.

Also - even if you are subject to the improvised weapon rules - could you fly up above the real foe, but then 'attack', say, a Summon Monster minion just below you. Presumably the item taht drops doesn't vanish/distinegrate after the initial attack roll, nor hover at 50' below you - it's still a big piece of matter and will fall, yes? Or are you saying that the RAW is that the item will fall to the ground, but is incapable of dealing damage to anything more than 50' below you?

[Cog]

What if the stuff is dropped in a way which can't be construed as an attack roll (and thus subject to the improved ranged weapon rule) - for example, you have a payload atop a 'deck' (Floating Disk / horizontal Wall of Force / etc.), and then you dismiss the 'deck'. In other words, the item isn't thrown down, but rather it's 'let fall'.
If you're not making an attack, then fine. If you're not making an attack, though, you don't then get to complain when you miss.

Keep in mind that while you the player have the advantage of seeing the grid lines, the characters don't... unless you think the game world looks like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0175.html).

The summon-attacking approach has the same problem. How does your character determine that they've aligned themselves correctly?

[Curmudgeon]

Also - even if you are subject to the improvised weapon rules - could you fly up above the real foe, but then 'attack', say, a Summon Monster minion just below you. Presumably the item taht drops doesn't vanish/distinegrate after the initial attack roll, nor hover at 50' below you - it's still a big piece of matter and will fall, yes?
Keep in mind that the 6 seconds of each character's turn is happening at the same time as the 6 seconds of every other character's turn. So, while the item doesn't hover, the target directly below you has also had 6 seconds to take their own actions ─ including moving somewhere else ─ in the time that it takes you to line things up and dismiss the spell.

That's why hitting isn't automatic.

[Thurbane]

The correct summary of the rules is that:

Dungeon Master's Guide and Rules Compendium don't talk about how falling objects hit creatures, only the damage when the hit takes place.
Heroes of Battle does discuss how falling objects can hit creatures, and how such hits can be avoided.

...so, how about groups that have no access to HoB? It is one of the more "obscure" splatbooks for 3.5.

To be honest, I'm relly surprised/diappointed that Rules Compendium didn't summarize the "new" rules introduced in HoB.

[Curmudgeon]

...so, how about groups that have no access to HoB? It is one of the more "obscure" splatbooks for 3.5.
If they've just got their Dungeon Master's Guide, it's pretty easy to pick a similar scenario. The weakened ceiling cave-in "trap" on page 66 includes a DC 15 Reflex save. If the stone falls everywhere and there's nowhere else to go, it's a save for half damage. If the PCs have safe spots to get to, the save is to avoid all of the falling stone. That's a pretty good indicator of how the game mechanics deal with non-aimed stuff dropping in your vicinity.

[Darrin]

You're not just stuck with "Rule 0" (which isn't actually RAW, of course). You've got the improvised ranged weapon rules (Player's Handbook, page 113),


Sorry, 'Mudgie. You're going to have to do better than that. There's nothing in the Core rules that says anything about treating dropped/falling objects as improvised thrown weapons. Besides, dropping an object is a free action. Making a ranged improvised attack is at least a standard action. While I can see making an attack roll as a very reasonable common-sense solution, I'd still consider that a DM's Call rather than RAW.



which tell you that you've got 10' range increments and a maximum of 5 increments if you're going to hit anything. Past 50' you can't hit your target.


...at which point (assuming you're above 50'), it's still a falling object, and continues to fall straight down into the square where the player dropped it. If the DM is going to move it any further than 5' away from that square... well then, please show me the rule that specifies how to determine where it lands.



Also if the item is too big for you to throw with any degree of control, you also can't hit your target.


Which is actually a point that works against your argument. There are several ways to drop an object from a height that is too heavy to be thrown as an improvised weapon (Feather Token: Swan Boat being just one example).

Drop a big enough object, and it doesn't matter if you can hit your target or not. If the falling object is at least 15' wide (or huge-size), it will still hit the target square on a "miss", since the largest deviation you can hope for within the rules is 5'.



So, basically, without Heroes of Battle or classes like Hulking Hurler you're not going to be hitting people with heavy stuff. That's the RAW.


Your interpretation of RAW, sure. But in Core, there aren't any definitive rules on what happens between when an object is dropped and when it finally lands in a square. The DM can rule however he likes about which square it ends up in, but in Core it's still a DM's Call, not RAW.


If they've just got their Dungeon Master's Guide, it's pretty easy to pick a similar scenario. The weakened ceiling cave-in "trap" on page 66 includes a DC 15 Reflex save. If the stone falls everywhere and there's nowhere else to go, it's a save for half damage. If the PCs have safe spots to get to, the save is to avoid all of the falling stone. That's a pretty good indicator of how the game mechanics deal with non-aimed stuff dropping in your vicinity.

That's probably the best way to treat falling objects: as an improvised trap. The DM can eyeball a Ref save by comparing the falling object to a similar existing trap. That's probably as close as you're going to get to RAW in Core.

[ffone]

Keep in mind that the 6 seconds of each character's turn is happening at the same time as the 6 seconds of every other character's turn. So, while the item doesn't hover, the target directly below you has also had 6 seconds to take their own actions ─ including moving somewhere else ─ in the time that it takes you to line things up and dismiss the spell.

That's why hitting isn't automatic.

My example wasn't meant to be tactically optimal, just to illustrate that you can't always consider a falling object to be an improvised weapon attack (the other poster's point that dropping something is a free action whereas a single attack is a standard is an even better reason.) Saying 'the foe will move away' dodges the question of 'how do we resolve it if they don't?'

Anyway, to the example:

- The foe might be stunned for a round
- You have two casters, adjacent in initiative order, one to conjure the disk / wall of force (as a quickened spell) and ready an action to dismiss it after the 2nd caster conjures payload
- The foe lacks the ability to see what you're doing (it's dark and out of darkvision range etc.)
-The foe is a stupid creature who doesn't comprehend it
- The foe is horizontally boxed in and can't fly, and can't get out from under the payload in one round
- You've cast Black Tentacles, Wall of Thorns, etc. around the creature to immobilize it
-The spells are conjured in advance, as an ambush, for a creature who'll not be able to see the floating stuff until they're under it (your dismisser may still need to win initiative)

Once again, I'm not claiming any of this is awesome optimal tactics (having to stun or entangle a foe makes it a lot less 'automatic' a tactic, and the others are situation), but it doesn't need to be to be a thought experiment about how to adjudicate a rules question.

[Curmudgeon]

Saying 'the foe will move away' dodges the question of 'how do we resolve it if they don't?'

Anyway, to the example:

- The foe might be stunned for a round
- The foe lacks the ability to see what you're doing (it's dark and out of darkvision range etc.)
-The foe is a stupid creature who doesn't comprehend it

The answer to all of these points is that Reflex saves don't require any conscious actions. You still get to save if you're stunned. You even get to save if you're helpless, though your DEX is treated as 0 (-5 modifier) in that case. So Reflex saves model something other than just noticing impending trouble and dodging out of the way.

Heroes of Battle covers such eventualities pretty thoroughly. Even failing that, a DM can handle the situation fairly reasonably using the "collapsing ceiling" situation from the DMG as an approximation for this scenario. In both cases a DC 15 Reflex save is indicated.

[Tvtyrant]

What is really silly is they get a reflex save even if you put them in a cage which prevents them from dodging.

My favorite Dropping Stuff ability to is be a Druid and fly up for a couple rounds and then shapechange into a whale and fall to earth. Sure you will be dead but so will they :P

[Orsen]

When I DM the way I play the rules is whatever seems realistic to me. If my party announced such a tactic, I would tell them that I think some sort of save is in order to avoid the falling object and see what they would want if this was to happen to them. I might try to balance things out though, saying that if the enemy made the save they had to dive out of the way, leaving them prone until there next turn.

[Curmudgeon]

What is really silly is they get a reflex save even if you put them in a cage which prevents them from dodging. I already mentioned this.

So Reflex saves model something other than just noticing impending trouble and dodging out of the way. How about "dumb luck"?

[Tvtyrant]

Yes, because totally cheesing out and using a tactic you read about on the internet that deals damage without a save or attack roll is how you should expect to play D&D. :smallconfused:

Perhaps not, but those are within the rules. If I house rule that swords have a wear system that will cause them to eventually break I should tell them that before the sword starts breaking down.

And using falling objects as an attack is pretty old; I learned AD&D with guys who would use that as a tactic back in Ye Olden Days. It isn't like its particularly hard to think of dropping things on people.

[Cog]

The fact that you can easily think of dropping something doesn't make it any less silly to think it deals damage automatically, without even having to aim.

[NNescio]

The main problem with falling item damage without a save or attack roll is that the DM can use it far, far better than his players. Literally. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies)

IMHO, it's a bad precedent, and most traps involving falling objects tend to involve attack rolls anyway.