d20 modern musings, questions and advice request.

[Darth Stabber]

So I started a d20 modern game Saturday night, and I have run into a few oddities and questions.

Fast hero seems to be significantly better at combat than the other 2 physical classes, while having a better skill list and more skill points (5+, strong and tough get 3+). Am I correct in this observation? They start out with the highest defense bonus (+3, +1 is the best others can hope for), the same hit die as strong heroes (d8), and they have talents that actually matter (unlike strong, who can at best nab +1 melee damage). Other than the fact that your talents are already picked for you (evasion, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge or what ever you get from an advanced class), you have a pretty good deal. You lose out on a tiny bit of bab, but can contribute with skills when fighting isn't happening. Also since both defense and ranged attack are based on dex (and guns exist), you are already focused on THE combat attribute. Am I missing something? The more cerebral classes are obviously focused on other things, so they really aren't up for comparison.

2nd - I'm likely to prc into gunslinger, do I want twf, or do I want to focus on shooting 1 gun well? I know how to answer this question in 3.5 (twf it up), but do I want to here? I gain a feat when I level, and don't know what I want (twf, double tap, or weapon finesse (can I apply finesse to pistol whipping?))
Current char
Walter Lancaster
Fast 1 (criminal background)
HP-10 AC-17
Str10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: disable device, drive, hide, move silently, slight of hand, tumble (all at 4)
Feats: personal firearms prof, point blank shot, precise shot
Talent: evasion
Equipment: Colt.45, .38Special, 3 Knives, leather jacket, concealed carry holsters, various usefull tools.

[SurlySeraph]

Multiclassing is a very good idea in d20 Modern, and a level or two of Fast is smart for almost any combat-oriented character.

Don't knock Melee Smash; there aren't all that many ways of getting extra damage in d20 Modern, and it's a decent one. With Melee Smash and Power Attack, and a few levels, you can reliably do more damage by clubbing someone with a shotgun that by shooting them with it.

TWF. Higher odds of hitting (because you get 2 attacks at -2 instead of 1 at -2), and more damage if you hit. Of course, taking Double Tap in addition later on is a reasonable idea, especially if you've got a .44 Magnum or Desert Eagle so you have a higher-than-average damage die for Double Tap.
Pretty sure you can take Weapon Finesse for a pistol whip, but I don't think there's much point in doing so.

[Tyndmyr]

Multiclassing is a very good idea in d20 Modern, and a level or two of Fast is smart for almost any combat-oriented character.

This. I favor dipping fast to pick up evasion and a nice boost to AC.

Note that Full BAB is fairly rare in D20M, and is pretty valuable, since circumventing attack rolls is somewhat harder than in D&D. This is a redeeming factor for strong.

If you want to shoot one gun well, as a general rule, you want to go soldier. Gunslinger is all about dual wielding. There's no real downside to going soldier later, though, if the campaign goes to high enough levels.

Yeah, double tap is fantastic. There's also...what was it, some feat that gives you an extra rounds worth of shooting once/day or some such. I enjoy that one. My favorite D20M character dual wielding machine pistols, and had an MMO of diving through the door, and covering everyone with automatic fire in the first round. It was fairly effective. Playing grenade monkey is also solid, if you've got the wealth to keep it up.

[Darth Stabber]

I'm getting the idea that dual wielding 9mm Glocks is the way to go (yay auto masterwork).

So assuming that the gm does not allow fractional bab rules, should I go fast3/gunslingerX and put my bab behind by 1 lvl, or should I hold out one more level for the extra point of base attack.

At lvl 4
Fast3/gunslinger1 = 2bab
Fast4 = 3bab

Leading to

fast4/gunslinger5/soldier5/gunslinger5/soldier1
Or with fractional bab
Fast3/gunslinger5/soldier5/gunslinger5/soldier2

Or is there a better prc out there than soldier?

[Aemoh87]

I have not played d20 modern yet but I am preparing for a campaign and I have heard a lot about Fast to Gunslinger.

Mostly that it is the only "optimized" build without magic or other shenanigans.

Also that the Fast dip is practically required for combat campaigns.

And finally I heard reducing opponents cover is key.

[Tyndmyr]

I have not played d20 modern yet but I am preparing for a campaign and I have heard a lot about Fast to Gunslinger.

Mostly that it is the only "optimized" build without magic or other shenanigans.

Oh, it's not. Using Strong for early entry into other PrCs is common. A Strong/Soldier with Double Tap and a .50 sniper rifle is ridiculous. 3d12+2 damage for a single attack action hits the massive damage threshold for most people with ease, and has very good +hit.


Also that the Fast dip is practically required for combat campaigns.

Fantastic defensively. I would strongly advise it if you intend to be shot at much. Not so great offensively.


And finally I heard reducing opponents cover is key.

Cover is huge. Grenades solve nearly all problems, though. In general, sufficient quantities of explosives can fix any problem in D20M.

[Aemoh87]

Cover is huge. Grenades solve nearly all problems, though. In general, sufficient quantities of explosives can fix any problem in D20M.

Really? Just D20M?

[Tyndmyr]

Really? Just D20M?

Well, no...but in real life, the acquisition rules are somewhat less friendly.

[Aemoh87]

So what do you think about a Martial Artist build? I wanted to play a sweet one in Gurps 4E who used a BFR (Big Friggin Revolver) but it didn't pan out so I was hoping just to swap the character over to d20 modern.

[Darth Stabber]

Grenade solve problems except for problems that have a reasonable reflex save and 1 lvl in fast (honestly are you really going to take the move speed increase?), since with a lvl 2 fast, with a +3 dex mod ignores frag grenades 50% of the time and it only gets worse from there. Is there some type of grenade save increaser that I am missing, or does evasion + uncanny dodge 1 mean that you always have to beat every fast hero the old fashion way.

[Aemoh87]

Grenade solve problems except for problems that have a reasonable reflex save and 1 lvl in fast (honestly are you really going to take the move speed increase?), since with a lvl 2 fast, with a +3 dex mod ignores frag grenades 50% of the time and it only gets worse from there. Is there some type of grenade save increaser that I am missing, or does evasion + uncanny dodge 1 mean that you always have to beat every fast hero the old fashion way.

Does the old fashion way involve a stick? With large size in proportion to others?

[Tyndmyr]

Grenade solve problems except for problems that have a reasonable reflex save and 1 lvl in fast (honestly are you really going to take the move speed increase?), since with a lvl 2 fast, with a +3 dex mod ignores frag grenades 50% of the time and it only gets worse from there. Is there some type of grenade save increaser that I am missing, or does evasion + uncanny dodge 1 mean that you always have to beat every fast hero the old fashion way.

Not really, but dual wielding grenades is awesome. And smoke grenades provide awesome cover.

Coupled with the aforementioned feat, it's possible to chuck four grenades in a single turn, without having iteratives. That, right there...that's a win.

[SurlySeraph]

Or is there a better prc out there than soldier?

The Urban Arcana web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/we/20030529a) has Sniper and Specop, which can be useful. Soldier's probably better for dual-wielding, though.

[Darth Stabber]

Does the old fashion way involve a stick? With large size in proportion to others?

That's one old fasioned way. I was refering secifically to aiming and shooting directly at said fast hero and rolling well, as opposed to autofire or grenades. If it is anything like SWSE then I would say grenades are near worthless after a certain (low) level. Autofire may be worth something, but the save DC on grenades is entirely too low, and evasion is entirely too easy to aquire (one level of fast in d20m or one level of scout in SWSE).