Analyze Dweomer - What's the Point?

[Eldan]

So, while going over the spell list, I came upon Analyze Dweomer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/analyzeDweomer.htm).

Unless I'm mistaken, it's basically a chain Identify that is cast more rapidly, with the added effect that you can also identify magical effects on an item or creature. However, that second part can just as easily be done with a spellcraft check.

So, is it just me, or does that seem a waste of a fifth level slot? Why spend a fifth level spell to do what a check with a class skill or a first level spell could do just as well?

[Greenish]

Convenience. Also, it can be done at range, and detects cursed items.

[Eldan]

Oh, right. Cursed items. I didn't think of that part (probably because I never really used them so far, at least not as written).

[Nich_Critic]

It's worse then you think. It's a 6th level spell.

Rounds/level is lame, but persisted, it wouldn't be terrible, just for the following effect:


In the case of an object or creature with active spells cast upon it, you learn each spell, its effect, and its caster level.

This, as a free action. Sure, you could do the same with a spellcraft check, but that only applies to spells/effects you can detect, so you would likely need arcane sight to fully duplicate the effect.

Still, though, it's pretty lame, considering arcane sight is level 3, and can be made permanent (so doesn't even take a spell slot/day).

[Eldan]

Actually, at that point, Greater Arcane Sight would beat it hands down. Seventh level vs. sixth, true, and shorter duration, but more range and no limitations on how many per round.

But yes, it's sixth level, even.

[Cruiser1]

Analyze Dweomer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/analyzeDweomer.htm) has its places. Identify costs 100 gold per casting, with a casting time of one hour. If you've killed an enemy caster or gained control of a dragon horde, and you have 11 magic items before you, that's going to cost 1100 gold to identify everything and take up a whole day. With Analyze Dweomer, one spell cast and everything's identified in about a minute for free.

[Gullintanni]

Analyze Dweomer costs 1500 gp though. You'd need 15+ items to make it a profitable spell...although the convenience at that point outweighs the costs handily IMO.

[Eldan]

The 1500 gold ruby is a focus, not a component, so it's not consumed. At least that part works.

[Gullintanni]

Right you are. So there's the advantage. Analyze Dweomer is essentially free, once you have a focus...and identifying lots of items.

[Eldan]

Still. 100gp versus a sixth level slot. I think at level 11 you should be able to afford the first one once in a while.

[Cog]

Identify costs 100 gold per casting, with a casting time of one hour. If you've killed an enemy caster or gained control of a dragon horde, and you have 11 magic items before you, that's going to cost 1100 gold to identify everything and take up a whole day. With Analyze Dweomer, one spell cast and everything's identified in about a minute for free.
And this is why you hire a mere first-level Dragonfire Adept who can identify anything in two standard rounds at no cost. :smallcool: You do have the same problems with cursed items as Identify, though.

[Greenish]

The 1500 gold ruby is a focus, not a component, so it's not consumed. At least that part works.Of course, that same 1500 gp could buy you an Artificer's Monocle.

[Eldan]

True. But looking at it in a core context, it might work.

[Gullintanni]

I think we should evaluate the spells in context. Identify is, in my experience, primarily cast a bunch of times at the end of a session when the party is divvying loot.

Analyze Dweomer provides a convenient means (beyond preparing identify 11 times) to identify items while you're adventuring. It means you can equip that +5 Vorpal Sword immediately, or start immediately using that Rod of Greater Metamagic Quicken. You get the benefit of your items right away, which could save headaches and consumable resources during the adventure.

The value is still debateable, but that's how I'd use the spell.

[Greenish]

There's also the point that you don't actually have to touch the items with AD. Anyone with sufficiently sadistic DM can see the benefits of analyzing unknown magical items from 80+ feet away.

[Gullintanni]

The 11 foot pole principle at work :smallamused:

[Cog]

The 11 foot pole principle at work :smallamused:
No, no. People have been using 11' poles for too long now; DMs have caught on.

You need to use a 11 7/8' pole. Avoid round numbers!

[CigarPete]

Analyze Dweomer is a standard action to cast, which means it is usable in combat. So, at a glance you know exactly what magic items and spell effects that lich has on him and therefore what will work and what won't. Potentially saves you rounds of trial and error, in addition to it's loot identification properties.

We've also always played that it give more detailed information about any magic item, showing any curses or any ancillary magical effects. Of course, some things have non-magical effects which might be more problematic.

[Ormur]

Paying a one-time amount of 1500 gp and a 6th level slot during downtime was a big improvement over constantly munching on 100gp material components and sacrificing valuable hours of scroll writing to figure you what exactly that +1 sword did. Also curses which we got burnt on once.

Of course we didn't know about artificer's monocle but given a choice strictly between identify and analyse Dweomer I'd pick the latter. At the time 6th level spells didn't seem very exciting anyway and as I've levelled up more I find that those slots are less used than 5th and 4th level ones. Of course that's was just ignorance but relatively speaking that spell level is nevertheless pretty underwhelming.

[Pigkappa]

There may be some spells which are good for NPCs too. A high level wizard merchant is really likely to prepare this spell everyday. It's kinda boring when someone comes into your store and you need to have them wait for several hours because you want to identify their items.

[Curmudgeon]

Identify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm) gets to be pretty expensive when half the stuff you're identifying is junk with Arcane Mark (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneMark.htm) or Nystul's Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) plastered on it. That's just magical graffiti.

[hewhosaysfish]

Identify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm) gets to be pretty expensive when half the stuff you're identifying is junk with Arcane Mark (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneMark.htm) or Nystul's Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) plastered on it. That's just magical graffiti.

I can just imagine a lich using all his cantrips, every day for 500 years to put his Arcane Mark on a vast mountain of random junk, just to troll anyone who might kill him.

[Jack_Simth]

Also don't forget the situation where you need to hire a caster.

Hiring identify costs a flat 110 gp/item (1st level caster, 1st level spell, 100 gp material component) although there are ways to get rid of the component (it's an Arcane material component, so Cloistered Clerics and Magic Domain Clerics don't need it). But ignoring cost-reduction methods, it's 110 gp/item.

Analyze Dweomer, however, is spell level * caster level * 10, + 1/10th the focus cost. So 150+11*6*10=810 gp, for 11 items, or 73.636363... gp per item. It's also a cost savings when you need to hire the spell (if you have more than eight items to ID, and if you use a reputable merchant, of course).

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I can just imagine a lich using all his cantrips, every day for 500 years to put his Arcane Mark on a vast mountain of random junk, just to troll anyone who might kill him.
As a DM in a nautical campaign, my bad guys did that with a load of beetles, which they dumped onto a ship at the same time as dropping a anchor feather token to lock the vessel in place.
Detect Magic didn't help the party locate the token, so they had to fight all the bad guys instead of running away. :smallbiggrin:

Back on topic: you youngsters have it easier than you think - at least the RAW of 3.x games gives you spells to identifiy stuff with. Back in BECM D&D days ,there wasn't anything to do except try the items out!

[Curmudgeon]

I can just imagine a lich using all his cantrips, every day for 500 years to put his Arcane Mark on a vast mountain of random junk, just to troll anyone who might kill him.
The way I've seen Arcane Mark used the most is on various junk picked up in dungeons, which can then be dropped as you explore. The spellcaster with permanent Arcane Sight can then see their invisible Arcane Marks on the dropped stuff, which helps greatly in marking which sections have already been visited and searched. Other people without similar sight will just see a pot lid, a single gauntlet, a cracked jug, and other random trash littering the dungeon. Why throw away that worn-out boot or old rag immediately when you can pop an Arcane Mark on each of them before going to bed, and put them to use in marking a dungeon the next day?

[AmberVael]

The REAL point behind Analyze Dweomer is to be able to identify all of a magic item's properties.

Confused by that?

Essentially what I'm saying is that it's a bad 3.0 hold over. In 3.0 D&D, identify was quite a bit weaker. It would only identify the first property of a magic item.

Analyze Dweomer was the REAL identify in 3.0.

Of course, with the 3.5 update, Identify was buffed (thankfully), but even with Analyze Dweomer's extra functions, it was basically rendered redundant and far less worthwhile.

[Eldan]

Didn't Identify also take several hours in 3.0? I'm a bit hazy on that edition, really.

[Greenish]

Didn't Identify also take several hours in 3.0? I'm a bit hazy on that edition, really.Psionic Identify has the manifesting time of one day. Time might be money, but apparently it ain't a lot of money. :smallannoyed:

[Telonius]

Didn't Identify also take several hours in 3.0? I'm a bit hazy on that edition, really.

8 hours, yes. It also only gave the most basic function of the magic item. So if it's a +1 Flaming Frost Dragonbane greatsword, it would only tell you that it's a +1 greatsword.

[peacenlove]

I can just imagine a lich using all his cantrips, every day for 500 years to put his Arcane Mark on a vast mountain of random junk, just to troll anyone who might kill him.

Cantrips are at will in Pathfinder ... (Also thanks for the idea):smallbiggrin:
*scribble scribble*

[Gullintanni]

Cantrips are at will in Pathfinder ... (Also thanks for the idea):smallbiggrin:
*scribble scribble*

The cruelty knows no bounds...:smallbiggrin: